Latest / Gay Men Going Deeper / Protecting Your Peace

Transcript

Protecting Your Peace · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Ah, welcome to the game and Going Deeper podcast, a series by the Gaiman's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. I am your host, Matt Lansdell. I am a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. My areas of expertise are teaching people how to heal toxic shame and attachment trauma and embody their authentic self so they can enjoy more meaningful connections in their lives. I specialize in working with highly sensitive people, empaths and gay men to develop a stronger sense of self worth. So today's topic is protecting your peace, and we are joined by Niall Biondi. Welcome.
• 0:40
  Speaker B: Thank you. Excited to be here.
• 0:42
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's good to have you here. So a little bit about Niall is he's a trans and queer therapist living and working outside of Boulder, Colorado. Historically, he has worked with, primarily with LGBTQIA plus communities, but in recent years, he has shifted his focus to helping people heal from chronic pain and health conditions. So your services are very, very much needed. And I'm glad that you're on the podcast to be able to share your. Your wisdom and your medicine with us and to talk about how we can protect our peace.
• 1:15
  Speaker B: Thank you.
• 1:19
  Speaker A: All right, so this topic. I have been wanting to talk about this topic for a long time because, well, maybe share my motivation behind choosing this topic. And I ran it by you, Niall, and you're like, yeah, this kind of feels like an alignment. We went back and forth and we co created the structure, but the vision was. Was, you know, obviously doing counseling, doing the work that I do, looking at the world and the state of the world right now and how much division there is and how much hurling of blame and anger and hatred and all these things in the world. And I see a lot of people not willing to take responsibility for themselves, and I see a lot of people blaming other people, and I see a lot of people having their peace interrupted and then again projecting and blaming and all these things and then staying in this kind of this. This negative feedback loop. So I've done a lot of work with my ego over the course of the last few years, and I've really learned a lot of great ways to protect my peace. And I. I wanted to share that. You and I both come from marginalized communities, and we have our. Our own experience with oppression and rejection and marginalization and these sorts of things. And so I guess when. When we're talking about protecting our peace, we're talking about, like, family too, so like, kind of like these microsystems. And then we're also talking about the macro systems. So like media, oppressive societal views, beliefs or even laws, hatred, these sorts of things. So how can we still stay in our power? How can we still remain in peace and love while we're, you know, existing in this world where there is, you know, so many opportunities for us to lose our center and become angry and hateful towards different groups of people that might be opposing us. So that's kind of this, that's the, that's the root, that's, you know, I think why you and I wanted to come together to talk about that. Did you have an intention for today or did you kind of have an idea of like what you wanted to talk about? Just bring it forward.
• 3:32
  Speaker B: Right. Not a specific intention beyond what we've sort of chatted about back and forth. Yeah, I wasn't sure if you wanted to start more with family relationships and, and those types of interactions, sort of more personal interactions or getting broader first.
• 3:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think let's kind of just, let's see where it goes. We, we did come up with four questions that we wanted to unpack. So what does it mean to protect our piece? Like, what does that even look like for us? We can share a bit about that. What interrupts our piece? I added that and actually I should have told you I added that. But I, I thought about it this morning and I was like, yeah, so what, what actually interrupts our piece? What are we doing? How are we giving our power away? Right. That is a big, big part of this conversation. I can't believe I missed that. But. And then what are strategies that we use to protect our peace? And how can we balance caring about the systems around us and protecting our peace? Because oftentimes when we think about protecting our peace, it's like, okay, I'm going to put on my rose colored glasses, I'm going to bury my head in the sand and I pretend like I don't realize what's going on around me. And that's not the best strategy either. So we want to have a B, right? Between like still caring about the world and social justice and these sorts of things. But also if we're always in that mentality, we're always going to see, you know, like the world as oppressive. Right. If we're always pushing up against the oppression, we're always going to feel oppressed. So where, where can we find that, that, that sweet spot between, you know, fighting oppression. Right. But also taking a break and realizing that maybe we don't have to fight the oppression. Maybe we just need to learn how to be comfortable within our. And, and just stay in our own lane while other people are. Can be in their lane. Right. So there's kind of this balance. And then the last question is, how can we come back into our center and stand in our own truth and power? Which I think is really similar to the last part there. So, so yeah, why don't we start with. And feel free honestly to share whatever comes up if you want to talk about family or you want to talk about media or whatever comes up for you. But like, what does it mean to protect your peace?
• 5:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think for me a big part of it has been shifting the focus from protecting the piece to protecting my piece. I sort of come from that chronic swan freeze place. And so I think historically my default was like, I'm gonna scan the room and figure out what everybody else needs and if I can make that happen, then I'll feel safe. But what happens or what I've learned that happens when, when that's the approach is that you actually don't really make anybody happy. And, and for me at least, I, I would end up feeling very stressed. And so I, I think the first step is like tuning into your own wants, needs and desires and figuring out what that is and then sort of learning how to, to advocate for that from a regulated place and, and learning how to set boundaries as needed and really caring for yourself. I think as a, as a centering point.
• 6:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love that you said, you said fawn freeze and like these trauma responses. I'm curious if you can share a little bit more because the listener might not know what you mean by that.
• 6:46
  Speaker B: Yeah, okay. Yeah. So the freeze response, a chronic freeze response, that's, you know, it. You can look at animals in nature to kind of understand it a little better. It's like when animals play dead, like they, they feel, it's. You feel unsafe and essentially shut down. You shut off as a way to try to keep you safe. And so for me that looked a lot like just trying to keep myself small, trying to stay invisible, trying to go unnoticed. And then the fawn response is, is a people pleasing response that you're basically prioritizing the needs of the person, a person who might feel threatening to you in order to keep your own safety or the perception of safety. And so again, for me that was just like, what does everybody else need? As long as everybody else has their needs met, I will feel safe. And so that, that looks like, you know, again, it's more invisibility. It's, you know, sometimes Putting on a happy face when you don't feel happy. It's trying to go with the flow, even if you have a strong opinion, trying not to rock the boat, just those sorts of things.
• 7:56
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, I, I know that all too well as well. So one of the, those were two, two responses that I, that I had as a child growing up in, in a chaotic environment, in home environment, is just to kind of learn how to fawn, learn how to focus on everyone else's needs. It was all self abandonment and I lost my sense of self very quickly because of that. So I didn't understand what I needed. And I think it's, it's actually, it can be adaptive actually in my opinion, like in certain environments and we actually are protecting our piece because if us being fawning and people pleasing leads to less chaos and fighting in our, in our household, then our peace has been protected. But at what cost? Right? And I think that's maybe the conversation to be had here is, it's like, is that actually protecting our peace now? Like, as we get older, like if we're having to abandon ourselves, our needs, our sense of self in order to feel the illusion of actually having our peace being protected when really it's not, we've actually just sold ourselves out. Right. So.
• 9:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, I know, and I think that's important to look at. Like we develop these coping mechanisms in childhood, most of us, and, and they sort of lose their usefulness as we become adults. And so you're right, it's like, okay, yeah, maybe I could go into a fawn response and not create any waves and look functionally. Okay, but at what cost? And you know, if you're constantly putting yourself in situations where you feel you have to do that, you know, I think sometimes that's when we have to zoom out and go, wait a minute, is this relationship healthy for me or is there a different approach I could take so that I can feel better in this situation? Do I need to speak up? Do I need to set a boundary? Is that possible in the situation or not?
• 9:51
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 9:52
  Speaker B: And yeah, just trying to figure that out.
• 9:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, you know, I'm, I think I might be coming out of like a functional freeze from like, from decades, like truly and like kind of maybe in and out. It is intense and it's like I've gone a lot of my life kind of like, you know, rose colored glasses, not giving a. About what's going on in, in different aspects of things. And you know, I, I view Myself as a little bit more of an individualist over a collectivist anyway. So, like, I'm not the kind of guy that goes to marches and. And the parades and these sorts of things and tries to make social change on a collective level.
• 10:29
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 10:29
  Speaker A: I'm more the guy that I help people make collective change in. Within themselves and within myself, because I see the system as. As a set of individuals. So I think it's important for us to work on ourselves to heal. So it's like, you know, when I think about, like, what does it mean to protect my peace? It's like, it means while really getting clear about what it is that is interrupting my piece and then working on those things. Like, so for me, it's been a healing journey. Like, working on a healing journey. Because I used to get so activated by so many things. And, you know, specifically, even let's talk about within the gay community, like, so activated by all of these things in the gay community. It's like, you know, hypersexuality and drug use and all these things. And really what I. What I had to realize is that my ego was upset with these things is because I was actually displaying similar qualities. So it was like a form of projection, right?
• 11:24
  Speaker B: Yeah. Interesting. Yep.
• 11:25
  Speaker A: So I realized that protecting my piece actually came from learning what was interrupting my piece, which is often, like, the triggers, the things, the triggers that are. That are triggering me. I had to realize that I couldn't just point fingers at the triggers. I had to actually get clear about, like, okay, what. Why is this triggering me? And oftentimes what, you know, the trigger is kind of like the. The foliage. And then when you follow the trigger, you get to the root, and the root is off. It's within us. It's like, okay, this thing is triggering me. So I guess, you know, for me, protecting my peace is all about taking responsibility for myself. And I think that's the biggest thing I want to share out of today's episode is like, that is such a game changer when we can get out of ego and more into humility and start to take responsibility for ourselves. That's when really, like, a lot of things change. And I think taking responsibility for ourselves is a sign of emotional maturity. Like, really, like, when I look at emotional maturity, I'm like, when I see somebody that has the capacity to take responsibility for themselves, listen to other people get curious, that is a sign of somebody who's done their work, in my opinion.
• 12:34
  Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, and I'm curious. A couple questions popping up for me as you were talking when you were saying that you're, you're not really a collectivist, you don't go to the marches and things. Has that always been true for you? I guess I'm, I'm coming from a place of having felt this pressure, you know, as a queer person to be very political and very visible in those ways and like to be a good queer, you got to show up at all the things and know all of the things going on in the world. And I'm just curious if that has been a struggle for you to, to find balance there if you've always just known. Yeah, that's, that's not where I want to expend energy.
• 13:13
  Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I think there's, there's different types of people in this world and I think there's activists who are physical, physical activists. They go to the march, they're the physical presence. And then I think there's people that are energetic activists and they do their work energetically. And I would define myself as more of an energetic activist. I work with, I can work within the collective grid. Collective energetic grid and like, and, and do that type of work. Think that's just different types of people. So to answer your question directly, is, is it something that I feel that I should be doing or that I. No, it's, it's really not actually like even going to like pride parades and, and things like that. It's just not really something that, that I've ever really. Yeah. Gotten into or felt the value of in it. Do you know what I mean? Because it's kind of like, I'm also a bit of a believer that it's like people, people don't change their beliefs because they see people marching and holding up signs and stuff like that. Like people change their beliefs in one on one conversations and by somebody showing curiosity and getting interested in their perspective. So if I were to go to those things, I would like probably go and talk to like the opposition and be like, hey, let's talk about. Right. I would like, like, let's do some authentic relating and fig like what's like. Because I don't, I just, I don't know, I, I guess for some people it gives them the, it gives them empowerment like going to those things and seeing other people who are going through similar things. So there's tons of value there for sure. Like, I'm not saying there isn't.
• 14:50
  Speaker B: Yeah, right. Invisibility, of course, is important.
• 14:54
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:55
  Speaker B: No, it's interesting though. I feel like I'm just Sort of accepting that that's actually where I land. You know, I, I think I've, again, coming from that fond place of, like, okay, I need to do what good queers are supposed to do. And so I think in terms of, like, protecting my piece, it's really been, like, tuning into the fact that, like, that's not what I'm good at. First of all, I'm very much an introvert. I get very overwhelmed in those situations. Yeah, just there. But, but you're right. It's like I, I support causes and people in one on one situations. And I do agree with you that kind of our individual stories is what changes people's minds.
• 15:33
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 15:34
  Speaker B: That we're, you know, good humans and.
• 15:37
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 15:37
  Speaker B: Here to harm anybody.
• 15:38
  Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. I love that. And I'm also introverted. I'm highly sensitive. So those marches and those things where there's a lot of high energy, it's just not good for me. But even, like, even this, this conversation we're having is a form of activism. Like, we're, we're using our voice. There's people listening and watching us right now, and they are feeling empowered by what we're saying, or maybe they're feeling challenged or triggered by what we're saying. Like, whatever, whatever's coming up. We're helping create change in people. And hopefully, you know, the mission of the brotherhood and this podcast is to. To empower people to be their authentic self and to. To be proud of being LGBTQ by A plus. Right. Like, that's what we want. We want people to feel like it's okay to be who they are. And when they see people that, you know, have influential energy, like, you know, showing up and being like, you know, I'm extremely proud to be a gay man. I have zero shame around it at all. Like, and I can truly say that now. I've done a lot of work on this. I don't have activations around, like, you know, sharing being gay, anything like that anymore. Like, I'm truly embodied as, like, a very, very secure gay man. And it's. And it's taken me, you know, two decades of work to get here, but I want to share that transmission with my audience and like, them to hear that, yeah, this, it's possible to fully love and embody being proud of being who. Who you are. Right.
• 17:04
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 17:05
  Speaker A: So for you, I'm curious, do you feel like, do you feel that there's a responsibility for you to, to have that same type of thing with queer and trans men or just queer trans people? In general, like, do you feel like you're part of that? Like you want, do you want that.
• 17:23
  Speaker B: Like, sort of model?
• 17:25
  Speaker A: Yeah. To be like, to be a role model or to be like somebody that is like. Yeah, like I, I love who I am and I'm. And I'm continu Who I am. Right. And I want other people to like.
• 17:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I, I think it's, it's changed over the years. You know, I started coming out in the late 90s, early 2000s, as a, as a trans person. Yeah, things were a lot different then. So I, I carried a lot of fear for a long time about who's going to accept me, who's going to still love me, who might date me, am I going to be employable, you know, all of that stuff. And then now I'm in my mid-40s and I'm feeling pretty insecure about that. And also, I mean, the world is, is much different now than it was, you know, 20 plus years ago about these things. But I do think it's just very important to show up and to let people know who you are. And for me, it's just been getting to that place of like, yeah, I'm not going to be for everyone, you know, not everybody is going to be interested in my story or me at all. And that's okay. I'm okay if people don't want to listen to me because I'm trans or, you know, whatever it was. But yeah, I mean, I think there's just. Yeah, I think there's so many reasons to, to be visible. I mean, again, I'm not like marching down the street with a I'm trans poster or anything. People don't generally read that on me day to day life, but people that I meet, I, I just actually disclosed that to a client of mine today who's, you know, came to me for reasons unrelated to being queer, but she just was like, I really need to know that you're not a Republican. And I was like, oh, actually I, I'm more on your team than you think. And, you know, it just was really meaningful to her. But that's something that I would have really struggled to share. You know, probably five, ten years ago I would have had those fears of like, what if she, what if she fires me because of this? And now I'm like, well, she does, she does. That's okay. But at least I'm being authentic with her and I'm not feeling like I have to hide something about me.
• 19:29
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 19:30
  Speaker B: And it actually, it Worked out very well.
• 19:33
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Well, and that's actually how we met. So you were, you were standing up and, and using your voice, and you reached out to, to us, right, via email, and you wanted more representation and you wanted. Right. So there was this. So I, and I responded because I appreciate that. I appreciated your, your conviction and I appreciated your, your empowerment, really, to kind of bring forward yourself. And again, that's activism. Right? Like, you were, you were protecting your piece because you're like, I want more representation. I like this podcast and I want to see more people like me on this podcast, that sort of thing. So, yeah, so it can kind of come both ways. It's like sometimes protecting our piece is like turning away, and sometimes protecting our piece is turning towards. And I think it's really about discernment. And I think that again, it's emotional maturity. Like, is this, is this an opportunity to go towards or is this an opportunity to turn away? And sometimes when we push, push, push against oppression or against bigotry or these sorts of things, it can actually, like I said, make us feel more oppressed because we're focusing on oppression, when really, if we turn in the other direction, we might see acceptance. It's like, where are we drawing our attention towards? Because that's the thing that I think we're gonna have the experience that we create our reality by what we focus on. Right. So, and not saying the other reality will disappear, like, bigotry and oppression won't disappear because we choose to turn away from it. But again, it's like, how much can we handle of that? Like, of constantly going up against oppress? Like, it just, it's. It's a lot. It's heavy. Right.
• 21:19
  Speaker B: Well, and you're right, though, like, nobody changes their minds from being yelled at about this stuff, you know, and that's often sort of the how people approach it. It's like, I'm gonna yell at you and be angry at you for voting the way you vote or thinking the way you think. And yeah, that's not how we heal. This is maybe cheesy, but I, I do feel like it's like we all just need more love. And the more we can just show up with a loving presence, the more people are able to. To start to shift from that sort of dug in, hateful place, I believe, at least.
• 21:54
  Speaker A: Yeah, I agree fully. Fully. Okay, so I'm curious about the interruption of our piece. What interrupts your piece, would you say? What do you give your attention to that you're like, oh, this is like, it's, it's getting me, you know, it's bringing me down.
• 22:14
  Speaker B: Yeah. Let me think. I mean, I think like the thing that derails me most is like family interactions still. You know, I'm working through it, but I'll like go into a family situation going, okay, grounded, I'm feeling good, it's going to be good. But I think our families push all of our buttons because they created them, they know exactly where they are.
• 22:38
  Speaker A: That's. I love that. That's a good way to put it. They created them. Yeah.
• 22:41
  Speaker B: Like we created them together. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm still working on that one. I mean, day to day, like sometimes work stuff or, you know, I told you before we hopped on here, I got a call from my kids school today. I had to pick her up early. That, you know, stuff like, you know, I'm like in the flow with, with some work stuff and then I get this call and I'm like, ah, damn it. Now I have to put that on the shelf for a couple more days. But like, you know, just trying to come back to like, okay, this thing that I'm working on, it's a process, it's not urgent. I'll get to it when I get to it. Rather than like really letting that derail and ruin my whole day.
• 23:16
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 23:17
  Speaker B: I don't know. Yeah. What, what are you, what for you around that question.
• 23:22
  Speaker A: I kind of look at it a little bit more generally. Like I have obviously some things that show up, but for me, one of the biggest things that leads to a lot of suffering for me and interrupts my piece greatly is trying to convince other people to see the world the way I see it or to believe what I believe. Right. And it's like this whole thing about rightness and wrongness and, and the ego, the ego is all about righteousness and conviction. And like the way I think in the way I believe is the way everyone else is wrong. Right. And it's like no humility whatsoever. And the humility, in my opinion is kind of the student. And the dignity is like the teacher. Right. And we want to have a balance of both. So I just, and I see this a lot in our world right now is it's like you have these people that are like, you know, projecting all over the place about what is right and what is wrong. And I get it when we're talking about human rights, that's, that's a different, a different category. Right. But it's like, for example, you talked about like Republican and Democrat and these sorts of things. And in your country, that's very, very divisive, Right? But I think when we. When we look at it through the lens of, you know, trying to convince other people to believe what we believe, how do we even know what they truly believe? Right? Like, how do we know that a person who's Republican doesn't like trans people or gay people? Just because that. Right. We're slapping labels on people as a way. And it's just lazy. It's lazy to assume other people are who they are based off of the label that you've created. What of what that means, what it means to be Democrat, Republican, gay, straight, like, whatever, Right? Yeah. So, you know, and I just think that there's this thing around morality right now, and everybody's just kind of virtue signaling and throwing stuff onto people around, you know, what is moral and what is right. But it's like, who gets to decide what that is for them? And I'm a firm believer that we do. We get to decide. We get to decide what's right and moral for us. So why can't people just own that and say, what's right and moral for me is what's right and moral for me? And why does it have to be, you know, why does it have to be in correlation with anything or anybody else? Why can't it just be like, I'm in my lane doing me? And. And that's one of the ways that I protect my piece. But again, I really want to have an asterisk to me saying this, that when we're talking about human rights, social justice, these things, there's a happy medium, right? There's that place where it's like, yes, I'm going to fight for trans rights because I believe trans rights are human rights. And, and I believe that, you know, that for. For all human beings. Right? But I also have enough emotional maturity to understand that somebody that has been conditioned within a religious system has their beliefs around, you know, homosexuality and that it's wrong and it's a sin and whatever. They've been conditioned, they've been indoctrinated into those beliefs. Who am I to say that I'm right and they're wrong because they're. They're within their own little microsystem of rightness. So I can let them be over there and I will be over here, right? But when those people get into positions of power, let's say, and they start to influence the greater system, and then suddenly, now I can't get Married, because this person becomes, you know, a supreme judge and they rule on whatever, then it starts to influence me. So I. I do want to say to the audience that I understand that, you know, you can't be in this place of just letting people be over here all the time, but I try my best to look at it through that lens. And so, like, for example, things that really interrupt my piece are going to be like. Like I said, trying to convince people to believe what I believe, blaming other people and not taking responsibility for my own agency. Right. And I just think it's important to. To learn to, like, pick and choose my spots, you know, like, yeah, pick, pick and choose the spots that I want to go. And I want to make. Try and make a difference in the world and not try and be a social justice warrior and try and take on everything that's kind of right. And then. So I find that balance for me really allows me to. To stay centered and in my power and not be constantly focusing on what is wrong in the world and what needs to be changed, because that's like a. That's a heavy existence. To be constantly in that place of feeling like you have to fight for. For every inch. It's just. It is a mentality, in my opinion, because, you know, there's people that are. There's gay people that are out there that are surviving and thriving and doing well, and there's some that aren't. And, you know, you got to look at the context of which they live and. And whatnot. And some. Some of the people that are fighting, I would say, have that mentality of it's me versus them. I have to fight.
• 28:05
  Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 28:06
  Speaker A: Right.
• 28:07
  Speaker B: Yeah. Are you familiar with the framework of the drama triangle?
• 28:11
  Speaker A: Very much so, yeah.
• 28:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know if it's worth it to do a quick elevator speech on that.
• 28:20
  Speaker A: Sure, yeah. Yeah, I'd love to. I haven't done it in a while.
• 28:23
  Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. Just for anyone listening who's not familiar, the idea is that there are three points on the triangle. Persecutor, victim, and rescuer. And whenever we're playing any of those roles, it contributes to drama and chaos in our lives. And essentially, the way off of the triangle is simply to accept responsibility for your own thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. And so I think that's sort of at the crux of a lot of what we're talking about here, like learning how to accept responsibility for the choices that we're making and not allowing ourselves to feel victimized or, you know, finding A way to empower ourselves and not just feel like victims in various situations.
• 29:01
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, I haven't heard of that for almost a decade, probably.
• 29:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:09
  Speaker A: But I love that. That was like, one of the first things that I learned, I think, in. In counseling in school.
• 29:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:17
  Speaker A: I'm curious for you, like, when it comes to being a trans man, like, is there something that really stands out for you that you're still struggling with as far as, like, your piece being interrupted? Like, you're like, hey, like, you know, this thing just keeps coming back and it's like, it's really interrupting my ability to find peace.
• 29:35
  Speaker B: That's a good question about being trans. Not specifically. I mean, if we had had this conversation a couple years ago, I think. Absolutely. But. And those things are just, you know, what you might expect. Just sort of sizing myself up against other men, like, do I fit in? Do I, you know, am I passing, you know, things that I don't really worry about anymore, but just all the, like, people going to read this on me and are they going to say I'm not a real man or I'm not manly enough or, you know, like, people say all of those things, but for me, it's really been getting to a place of one, just, like, taking myself off the playing field and just really kind of getting to that place of, like, as a trans man, like, I'm. This is maybe an unpopular opinion for, for some trans people, but I just think it's a different thing. I'm not a cisgender man, so, like, I wasn't socialized in the same ways, and so I'm not going to respond in the same ways. My body is different, my brain is different. And so for me, it's just going, like, those rules don't apply to me, you know, Like, I. I just, I don't. I'm not going to fit in in certain ways, and that's okay. My, My job is not to try to fit in and to try to convince people that I'm just like any other CIS man, because I'm not, and that's okay. But it's taken me a long time to get there. I used to be very fearful of, like, what are people going to think when they find out I'm trans? And, you know, are they going to start scrutinizing my body and looking for the trans visibility in my body? Are they going to start to think, like, your opinion doesn't really matter about this thing that we were wanting to know men's opinions about. Because, because you're not a real man in those kinds of ways. But at this point I'm just like, it doesn't bother me, you know, if you don't see me in the same way you see other men, that's. That's on you. That's not, it's not about me.
• 31:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I, I respect that and I really appreciate that. And so I'm curious for you, what's one thing that you can say that you've done or are doing that has made you resilient to those. Some of those things that you had talked about, like, that you could, you could share with the audience. If somebody's like, man, I want to know what he did to get to that, to get to where he's at now. Like, what is one thing that you share with the audience?
• 31:50
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think a lot of it is about finding value in my experience as a trans person and really letting that stay true. You know, again, like, not trying to hide. Like, I feel like society has sort of put this thing on trans people that like, if you don't pass as, as cisgender, then you're not doing it right. You know, I think that's starting to shift. But there is sort of a lot of pressure to sort of just fit in and blend in, which I'm very good at. Very good at the fond response, but really coming to that place of like, no, I. There's value in being trans and having sort of walked in in boys, both worlds, having had these experiences as someone who is socialized as a girl and lived, you know, the early part of my 20s, somewhat as a woman, you know, I sort of lived in an in between place for a little while. And I have a very unique perspective and I'm able to take. And I think I'm able to empathize with a lot more people and have a lot of compassion for different kinds of people. And I think it is part of what's made me good at my job and what makes me relatable to other people. It's just shaped who I am. Like, without being trans, I had no idea who I would be, not who I am now, but again, just really leaning into the value that I found having lived in this way and, and, you know, trying to figure out what, what is it that I can share with the world to kind of make the world a better place too?
• 33:26
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. What a great answer. And, you know, you and I have been developing a friendship in really, what has it been like the last four or five months. Yeah. And I think one of the things that I. That I notice about you, and maybe this is what made. Has made you resilient, is that you're very open. Like, you have a very. You have an openness about you. You have a curiosity. You ask a lot of questions. And it's like sometimes that is like a beautiful way to disarm the people in our lives that might be. Have a loaded gun. Like, hate to use an analogy, but you know what I mean? It's like that are. They're looking to create. Right. And it's like when you just lead with openness and. And curiosity, it can be a great way to disarm that. So.
• 34:09
  Speaker B: Yeah. No, I appreciate you saying that. I think, you know, there are probably there might be friends or family members of mine who might listen to this, who might know him as being very open, because I think that that's newer for me. And honestly, I think it's a result of doing the work that I do around healing chronic pain that has helped me get out of that swan freeze and be more open and genuine with people. Had a friend years ago, tell me, like, she said, you used to think that you were very open, but you. You weren't. And she, like, she found it kind of sweet that, like, I thought it was this open book, but she was like, you were so guarded. Going through this healing process has kind of helped me out of that fawn place and, and helped me get to that place of like, okay, if not everybody likes me. Right? Not everybody's cup of tea.
• 35:00
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 35:01
  Speaker B: And realizing that, like, I'm okay, even if I say something that you think is strange, I'm okay. You know, like, it doesn't have to ruin my day if you're like, oh, that's a weird thing that you just said. You know, whereas before I. I think I tried to not make any mistakes in that kind of way so that nobody would criticize me or call me out. So anyway, it's just.
• 35:25
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 35:26
  Speaker B: Interesting to hear that reflection of you knowing me now. You didn't know me five years ago.
• 35:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Well, it's a testament to your growth. And, you know, I think sometimes when we heal people. Pleasing and fawning. We really. We're really repairing our relationship to ourself. Right? That's the, that's the work. Getting clear about my needs. Stop self abandoning. Develop a sense of self. And through that development of our sense of self, we really get clear about our authenticity, our quirks, our weirdness. All These things. And then when we make space for those things within ourselves, we make space for them within others. Right. So we're less judgmental of other people when we, when we give ourselves the space to be who we are. So I say like this really, this, this work of finding, you know, acceptance in the world is really, it's an inside job. It starts with ourselves and it starts with not judging ourselves. So then we don't judge others. And when we are in a state of acceptance for self and other, we attract that. But when we're in a state of judgment towards self another, we attract that as well. So that's what I mean. Again, we, when we push up against oppression all the time there's a judgment that we're placing on others saying, you're oppressing me. And then we're pushing up against that. Resistance meets resistance and creates more resistance. So sometimes it's about like, okay, I'm going to walk away from the march and I'm going to just be with myself and learn how to love and accept myself. And then that will energetically attract people who want to love and accept you and the other people. That doesn't mean that it heals them. They're on their own journey. But you won't, you won't come into contact with those people because your vibration won't attract it.
• 37:02
  Speaker B: Right, right. And I think that's, that's so key too is like we do these bond freeze responses, like in hopes of getting people, people to like us. But like if they're liking on version of you, they're not really liking you. And that doesn't feel good. You know, I think we both learned this in different ways that like when you do start to show up, unfortunately, the immediate side effect is that you often lose people that they're like, wait, I liked you better when you weren't setting boundaries or speaking your truth. But you do ultimately end up with healthier relationships, sometimes fewer, at least for a while. But yeah, more fulfilling.
• 37:39
  Speaker A: Yeah. And sometimes fewer is better. I'd rather have quality over quantity. And that's actually what happened to me when I start, when I started or stopped people pleasing and started setting boundaries and stuff is it's like you realize that you're not everybody's cup of tea. And when you're people pleasing, you're trying to be everybody's cup of tea, but you're really, you're nobody's cup of tea because nobody knows who you actually are. Right.
• 38:01
  Speaker B: And you're stressed all the time. Right?
• 38:04
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's oh, man, I'm so glad that I've done the work that I've done. And I always say, like, one of the. The hardest transformations I've made. And I've made a lot of different transformations in my life on my healing journey. And healing codependency has been the biggest one because that is my attachment style. That is my codependency, that is my fawning response. That's. Everything is kind of encompassed in that one dynamic of. Of, you know, codependent patterning. It's heavy, heavy work. Right. And it's always showing up. And that's the relationship buttons within the familial system. They're usually. They're usually entrenched in some form of codependency or some form of dysfunctional relational patterning. But, yeah, it's heavy.
• 38:47
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 38:51
  Speaker A: Okay, so let's move to what are strategies you use to protect your piece? So they can be. They can be adaptive or maladaptive. Doesn't matter. But just whatever. What do you do in the world to protect your peace when you need time to protect your. Your piece?
• 39:05
  Speaker B: What? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think a couple different ways. You know, one is just, like, sort of the external measures of, like, I need time in nature. I need time alone. I need space to. To do things I love. You know, whether it's going for a walk or playing the piano or, you know, just things that are, for me, quieter and help me just clear my head. But I think also there are strategies, like, in the moment, you know, when I. You know, because I think we have. Our brains, have the old neural pathways that. That we're comfortable and familiar. And so sometimes it's. It's easy. You almost, like, feel your brain wanting to go back to this old way of being. And for me, it's just like noticing that and taking a couple deep breaths and trying to come back to a grounded, centered place and just reminding myself that, like, I'm okay if not everybody likes me, like, I've got my back, even if nobody else in this room has my back, and that I'm okay if somebody criticizes me. For me, I think I've been very sensitive to criticism my whole life. I come from a very critical family and had, like, I. I didn't think that I was. Because I was in that freeze boat. It's like, oh, it doesn't bother me. But what I learned was that I was just terrified of everything. And so going into that freeze place so that nobody would really notice me. To criticize Me. So. So again, it's just sort of coming back to that place of like, you can handle it if somebody criticizes you, if somebody doesn't like you, you're okay. And really developing that sort of secure connection, secure attachment to myself first. And then I think the attachment to other people gets more secure and gets a little easier. Yeah. How about you? How do you deal with those things?
• 40:54
  Speaker A: Oh, man. Well, the last four years. I learned four years ago that I'm a highly sensitive person. And I was white knuckling it and that was functional. Freeze. Like, I have a very sensitive nervous system. I'm very sensitive emotionally, but I'm also sensitive sensori. Like my, my five senses are very sensitive. So I've had to learn how to protect my piece. And that's another reason why this topic is so dear to me is because when I watch the news, like I can be. I can have nightmares from watching the news. Like, I can feel it can completely annihilate my day, my mood. Like if when I see, and especially now on the news, they're showing people being murdered, they're showing like blood and it's like so gory and disgusting. And I don't watch horror movies or anything with violence in it. So these sorts of things. So, you know, I would say not watching the news. And one of the things that I do with my clients, and most specifically my American clients, is get them on like to start with like a seven day no news cleanse and see how that impacts their, their sleep quality, their mood, these sorts of things. And most of my clients will continue on and do like 30 days and like cleanse themselves. I think the news is a drug. It, it affects our brain the same way that, you know, certain drugs affect our brain. Like, it's, it's almost addictive, it's dramatic. It's, you know, these sorts of things. And so that is definitely one of them for me. Another one is unsubscribing from beliefs that don't serve me. This has been a big one for me because I've been working on a reconditioning process for a long time around many different things. But a big one for me is around femininity and masculinity. I had adopted some big programs around what it means to be a man, what it means to be masculine, and to, you know, avoid anything that shows femininity, these sorts of things. And I had like really entrenched indoctrination in that. And so I had to learn, and I have been learning how to Heal shame that was binding me to these subscriptions that I had chosen, probably subconsciously. Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. You know, masculinity for me was this. This armor that I wore to keep myself safe in this world. And that was a big one for me, learning how to restore safety in. In embodying my feminine qualities.
• 43:17
  Speaker B: And.
• 43:18
  Speaker A: And so that's. That's a big one. And then, you know, relationally, for me, protecting my peace looks like getting curious and leading with empathy. So I'm the kind of person that I can have a conversation with anybody. Like, truly, like I. Like I said I would go to. At the march, I would go up to the opposition, and I would, like, talk to them and, you know, get curious and find out why they're here and. And whatnot. I've always been like that. Like, I don't get. I don't get caught up in the black and white. I. I dance in the gray, and that's just how I've always been. It's a very, very, like, Gemini for those Geminis that are listening. It's like, we are really good at playing within that space because we have dualism. We're. We're the. We're the sign of the twins. Right. So we have two people living. Living inside of us, and usually they're oppos.
• 44:05
  Speaker B: Other.
• 44:05
  Speaker A: Right. So I've always worked within inner conflict and opposition, so I can see both sides of pretty much everything.
• 44:11
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 44:12
  Speaker A: And that's why I think I'm here. That's one of the qualities of why I'm here and I'm doing this.
• 44:16
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, Right.
• 44:17
  Speaker A: Is that I can. I can share different perspectives that really open people's mind to that. And then the last one that I'm thinking about is, like, so whenever I. My piece has been interrupted, I ruminated. I'm a big ruminator. I overthink. And then I play out all these scenarios in my mind. I fight with people in my head and blah, blah, blah. It just gets Rick and get really nasty up in my brain. So what I've learned is that every time I ruminate, there's always an unmet need and usually an emotion that needs to be felt and an unmet need that is attached to that emotion. And so when I. When I'm ruminating before, I used to just play it out. And I would sometimes lay in bed at night for, like, four or five hours while I was trying to fall asleep, and I'd be ruminating now I'm like, okay, what am I. What am I. Feeling what emotion is feeding this rumination, and then I have to. I have to go towards the feeling, and then I always am presented with a need, an unmet need. So, like, maybe I'm needing connection or maybe I'm needing to have a conversation with somebody or whatever it might be. And I move my rumination into connection or into whatever the need is asking of me. And that usually is. Helps me protect my peace. So it's like, for me, it's like a protective.
• 45:29
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I mean, I know we had talked briefly about, like, talking about anger work, and that is coming up for me here. Yeah, I think that, yeah, I've embodied sort of similar practices around that that I've learned through the chronic pain work that I do to help people heal from that. Often what is happening underneath the pain is a lot of repressed emotions. And so one of the strategies is to help people learn how to release repressed emotions. And. And usually anger and fear are the two biggest ones. And so just sort of developing a journaling practice about anger. And sometimes, like, you know, anger can be very physical. And so finding a physical outlet for it, but finding a way to do that privately so that, I mean, it doesn't have to be private, but like, away from the people that I'm feeling anger towards, so that when I'm actually with the people or in the situation, I can be grounded. You know, sometimes we have to discharge that energy first before we're able to sort of come back to a regulated place. It sounds like that's kind of what you're talking about there too, is getting the emotion out and then figuring out what was driving that emotion and figuring out how to get that need met. It.
• 46:44
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, and if you look at the trauma responses, fawn and freeze, they're the opposite of emotional processing. We go into those responses so we don't have to feel. Right? So then if we're not feeling, we're not able to connect with the need. If we're not connecting with the need, we can't protect our peace because we don't know what we're protecting. Right? So it's like feeling is. And honestly, I feel like a broken record on this podcast. I swear, every episode I say this, like, feel it. You gotta be feeling. You gotta be feeling emotions. So if you're a. If you're a dissociator, you're a freezer, you're a fawner, you're a flighter. Flighter, whatever you are, you Got to work with, with yourself or with a practitioner to get yourself back into, into your felt sense. Because that'll be a really beautiful way to protect our piece. Which kind of seems counterintuitive because it's like, why would I want to have my feelings online to protect my piece? Right, right.
• 47:33
  Speaker B: Well, especially those of us who come more from the Fawn Threes place, like you, you. You basically have to engage your nervous system's fight or flight response to get out of that and to get back to a regulated state. And so, I mean, you said like you're coming out of that functional freeze. I feel like that's where I've been the last two to three years is coming out of that. And it's intense. Like you're used to not really feeling much or. For me, I thought I was like this super laid back, chill, level headed guy. But then I just started getting like, like agitated all the time and I was like, what is going on? And just like cranky all of the time.
• 48:09
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 48:10
  Speaker B: And then I started doing this work and I was like, oh, I was not chilled and laid back. I just was terrified of everything and hiding it and like trying not to feel it. So, you know, then like doing some anger work, it like takes you way up here, but that's what helps you get back to that regulated state.
• 48:29
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Our journey. It's no wonder that you came into my life because we, I think we're navigating this at a very similar time. Like we met in July or whatever that was. I was at the, the peak of this really bad depression that was inundating me with fear. And I thought most of my life I was cool as a cucumber. Nobody can get to me. Nothing bothers me. But I was functionally frozen and I was over regulating. Right. You have under regulators and over regulators of emotion. And I was an overregulator in a big way. And so this last year has been me coming back online from functional freeze. And I've felt the most fear in my life in the last year than I have in all my years combined. And what it was was all my childhood fears of growing up in a chaotic home and these sorts of things is it was all stored in my system because I was functionally frozen and dissociated most of my life. And so it's cool that we've come into each other's lives like and we're actually kind of navigating like our way back online from some of these, these trauma responses that we've been that we've been utilizing, so.
• 49:33
  Speaker B: Yeah, I know. It's been fun for me, too. I just feel like all the people that I know right now, like, every. You know, when we leave our messages or whatever, I'm like, oh, yeah, I totally relate to that. It just does feel like we've been on very similar journeys.
• 49:46
  Speaker A: Yeah, it does for me as well.
• 49:48
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 49:50
  Speaker A: Okay. So do you have any tips on how we can balance caring about the system around us while at the same time protecting our peace? It's like kind of such a. Such a. Yeah, it's a big question.
• 50:03
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 50:04
  Speaker A: So I'll. I'll actually drop this. This question. I want people to. I'd love to hear how you do this in the comments on YouTube, because this is a big one. So I'll repeat it again. How can we balance caring about the systems around us while at the same time protecting our peace? It's a very, very. It's a fine art in learning how to do this. But do you have anything that. That comes to mind for you?
• 50:26
  Speaker B: I mean, I think it depends on what systems you're talking about. Whether it's a family system or just like, political systems or any. Yeah, the media. I. I think it's. I mean, it's. It all comes down to finding the right balance for you. Right. Like, yeah. With stuff going on in the news right now, for me, it's like finding the balance between taking in enough information so that I'm informed and I can support friends or clients or whoever might be feeling upset about what's happening, but not taking in so much that I become overwhelmed and therefore ineffective, you know, because I can't show up for people. You know, we have an intense job listening to people one on one all week long. If I'm spent because I've listened to too much news and I've gotten too upset about what's going on in the world and no good for myself or my child or clients that I work with. So trying to find that balance, I think it's. What else. What. What came to you when you came up with this. This question?
• 51:32
  Speaker A: Well, I think everything that I do in life is intentional. So I. There's not one thing that I don't do in my life that isn't intentional. I'm oftentimes not on autopilot. I'm usually intentionally doing things, so I would say that would be it. So how can I intentionally care? Right. How can I take time out of my day to care and do something that's going to help? Right. So Today, this can be my form of activism. I'm. I'm putting myself out there. I'm using my voice to create change in the world. This is how I'm actually putting forth that. And then, you know, how can I intentionally protect my peace? So I love how you said, like, get out into nature, turn off your phone for the day, or usually on the weekends, I'm off, offline. Like, I'm not on my phone a lot and these sorts of things because I'm on zoom all week for endless hours. And so it's like. For me, it's like, move away from the electronics because they're frazzling me. Right. And get out into. Connect with the earth and release and ground myself. So, you know, I think that's. That's one of them. Yeah. Discernment, it's such a. It's such a key word here. Like discernment of when to, you know, fight for your freedom and when to, you know, take a break and let other people, you know, do the work so well.
• 52:47
  Speaker B: And also, I think, like, when to seek support ourselves. You know, I think sometimes as. As healers and helpers, I don't know, sometimes we forget to seek out support ourselves. But I think whether that's from a professional or just friends that can relate to you just making sure you hear, processing and talking to other people, for me at least, that's part of keeping the peace. We all need connection and love and care and compassion, and so making sure we're getting enough of that.
• 53:21
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's actually. That's huge. I'm glad you just said that, because I never even thought about that. But it's, you know, for me, this process I've been going through for the last year and the healing I've been going through is actually opening my heart.
• 53:34
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 53:35
  Speaker A: So the greatest anecdote to whatever the disturbance of your peace, the hatred, these things, in my opinion, is an open heart. So you can let love in.
• 53:48
  Speaker B: Absolutely right.
• 53:49
  Speaker A: And let, Let. Let people love you so you can feel acceptance. That's a piece of it. And then let. When that love is inside of us and we feel that love cultivated within, we find love and acceptance for ourselves as well. So, yeah, I just. I never even thought about that. And I'm glad that you said that because that's. That's really important. And I'm starting to feel like, less scared and less, you know, shame and all these things that I've been struggling with a lot of my life, because my heart's opening and I'm letting Love in. And I think love is the medicine for all of that stuff.
• 54:23
  Speaker B: Right? Yeah, yeah.
• 54:28
  Speaker A: Yeah. Beautiful. Any other thing, any. Any. Anything else that's coming to mind that you. That you feel is important to share before we wrap up here? This hour went by very quick.
• 54:39
  Speaker B: It's. We're done already. No, I mean, I was thinking something as you were talking. Talking, but it left my brain. I don't know what it was. Oh, I think. I mean, I think just back to, like, you know, coming from that Fawn Freeze place, just, you know, getting ready to do this podcast with you this week. I was feeling very nervous a couple of days ago, and my previous self would have been. Excuse me. My previous self would have just said, well, tough. Suck it up. You signed up for this. Like, just do it. If you sound incompetent, then you're going to sound incompetent. You know, whatever. And I just had all these fears running and. But then I just stopped and I, like, took some deep breaths and I was like, I can one tell Matt that I'm feeling anxious. And we talked about that. That name it to tame it. But I actually, I reached out to two friends. I was like, hey, would you mind just chatting me with me about, like, these two things that. That I'm mulling over about how I want to show up on the podcast and good for you. Like, both of them were like, yeah, of course. But my. The previous version of me would have been like, nope, you cannot ask for help. But as soon as I did it, I was like, okay, okay. One, then I get to just chat about the things that I'm nervous about, and that takes it down. And two, if both of those people had said, no, it's okay, like, I'm okay, you know, but again, I think years ago I would have been like, well, if I get a no, then that means everybody hates me. And you know, just like that. That rabbit hole and just coming back to that place of, like, no, I'm okay. Like, whether or not I process with anybody, I'm okay. And it's okay to ask for help. Help. So I think that that's hard for a lot of people. Just naming that you're feeling something and asking for that help or support.
• 56:20
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That's one thing that I actually admire about our connection, is that we're. There is a lot of transparency, you know, Like, I remember in the. When we first started talking, I was like, yeah, I'm feeling very avoidant in my connections right now. We wouldn't talk for, like, Five days, or I would leave a voice note for five days. And I just told you, like, I'm consciously avoidant right now.
• 56:38
  Speaker B: Right. You're.
• 56:39
  Speaker A: You feel comfortable telling me about, you know, your insecurities and things, and I really appreciate that, and I'm really valuing that in all my connections right now is like, you know, it's. It's just important. It's important for us all to reveal ourselves and own kind of what we're. What we're experiencing. And I think that's, you know, to tie it back into the topic. That's a really beautiful way to protect our peace because we get connection out of. Out of humility, and people want to be humble and.
• 57:05
  Speaker B: And.
• 57:05
  Speaker A: And show you their humanity when we do the same thing. Right. So I think it's a really big protective factor for resiliency is just learning how to be authentic and real with people.
• 57:15
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:18
  Speaker A: And I want to just wrap up by saying that I think if somebody is out there and is struggling with chronic pain, that you would be such a great resource. Like, just the things you've shared with me and I. Learning a bit about your practice and stuff. Like, I just know that you'd be amazing and at what you do and helping people kind of unearth the. The roots that are contributing to their chronic pain. Because, like, you and I come from a very similar philosophy that's, like, more psychosomatic and like. Or, like, emotional, somatic kind of working with that. So I think you'd be a really good resource for people. So if there's anybody out there struggling with chronic pain, reach out to. To Niall, because he'll be able to support you.
• 57:58
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. And it's. It's very similar to the work you do. I just. I feel like the path is led by the body and the pain versus, like, I think you let sort of attachment guide what you do mostly, and it's all the same, but it's like your body tends to be. It guides the process. It tells us where. Where you need to go to heal.
• 58:19
  Speaker A: Exactly.
• 58:20
  Speaker B: A healing from the inside out.
• 58:22
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 58:23
  Speaker B: Work. Yeah, yeah.
• 58:26
  Speaker A: Yes. I love that. All right, well, I want to just thank you for coming on and sharing your wisdom. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure you're all. We'll have you back on again. This was a really delightful conversation, so we'll find another topic that we want to unpack together.
• 58:42
  Speaker B: All right, Sounds good. Well, thank you.
• 58:44
  Speaker A: Yeah. And for the listener, if you have not already, you can come and join us in the Gay Men's Brotherhood on Facebook and come and join one of our Zoom hangouts. They happen on the last Thursday of every month, and we unpack topics that are really juicy and yummy. If you're watching on YouTube, please leave comments and share your experience with us and the audience. And people go into the comments and read them. That's what a lot of people just do on YouTube. So your comment could be changed. Like, you know, help other people as well. You're not just writing them to us. The other. The audience is also reading your comments as well. And if you're if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform and you enjoyed what you heard today, please leave us a five star rating because it will help this episode get into the hands of the people that need it. So, all right, Much love to everybody. Until the next episode. Adios.