Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / A High Conflict Divorce with a (rare) Successful Outcome
Transcript
- Megan Hunter: Welcome to It's All Your Fault on True Story FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, Bill Eddy. Bill Eddy: Hi, everybody. Megan Hunter: We're the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. In today's episode, we're joined by a very special guest, Shannon Jenkins. She has her own podcast, the Starting Over With Shannon podcast, which I was privileged to be interviewed on one time, which was lovely. And you'll get to hear Shannon today talk about her journey through a high conflict divorce, which as, if you're listening to this, you probably have either been through one or know about one. It can be really quite messy and often less than favorable results for everyone. But Shannon's experience has had some rare positive outcomes that she'll share with us. And I think it's going to be a wonderful conversation. But first, a couple of notes. In our discussions, we are not diagnosing anyone with a personality disorder or a high conflict personality, and we really encourage you to never do that as well. Now, if you have a question about a high conflict situation or person, please send them to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website at highconflictinstitute.com/podcast, where you'll also find the show notes and links for today's episode. And please give us a rate or review and tell your friends, colleagues, or family about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation. We're very grateful. Now let's dig right in with Shannon. So instead of starting with a long bio about Shannon, I think her story will just simply unfold through our conversation with her. And as you, our listeners, may or may not know Bill and I started High Conflict Institute in 2008 with a focus on high conflict divorce and child custody matters, anything in the family court that was high conflict. We really wanted to help both the professionals who dealt with these cases and the individuals traversing them really understand how to do it better by understanding what's going on behind the scenes. And how to adapt what you do to have some successes. High conflict divorce is definitely one of the hardest trials that anyone can go through. And it's not only hard on the parents, but it's very hard on the children. Shannon knows this firsthand. And while these cases have many downs and a limited number of ups often, Shannon utilized some strategies in her own case that had some very positive results. We're going to talk about those. So first, Shannon, we'll talk about what made your case seem high conflict to you, where you decided to go to get the best decisions in terms of parenting plans, finances, relocation, the professionals you used, and strategies that helped you get good decisions in court. And then we'll finish up by giving our listeners some helpful tips and encouragement as they walk the path of high conflict divorce and co-parenting. So first, Shannon, let's just start in by telling our listeners about where this all began, and then we'll get into the middle and the present. I know that this will be a conversation that will resonate with many of our listeners who are going through something similar and also the professionals who handle these cases. Your podcast is named Starting Over With Shannon. And so let's start there. Why did you need to start over? Shannon Jenkins: Thank you so much. That was a lovely introduction. Can I first say I thank you for this opportunity and thank you also for your resources, because quite frankly, they helped me during a time in my life that was immeasurably difficult, something I did not anticipate happening. Something where I frequently felt overwhelmed, in distress, and in need of help and support. And you both, through your videos on YouTube, through your books and other resources you offer, really gave me that shining light and knowledge and clarity on how to take some steps forward. So thank you. Megan Hunter: Our pleasure, of course. Shannon Jenkins: Yeah. And for those listening, oh my gosh, do I get it if you are going through this. Really, really do. As for starting over, any kind of high conflict separation is going to shake up your world in a way that you never anticipate and really strip you down to your bare bones. And that is certainly what happened in my instance. I felt like I had mental health difficulties. I had practical difficulties in terms of my time managing work alongside legal procedures, alongside being now a single mom with limited support from my now ex partner. So I think the starting over came from how can I rebuild my life and the life of my son into something that is wholesome and meaningful and joyful and with purpose? And that's really what perhaps could be seen as somewhat rare in my instance is that I came out of this really shining and really feeling like I had a lot of hope for my future, both personally and professionally. So yes, that led me into starting my own podcast and really trying to gain wisdom from other people in how they have faced adversity in their life and how they have transformed that into something that is a positive. Bill Eddy: That's great. It's so nice to hear that you came out of a high conflict situation with hope and then sharing what you've learned and others have learned. So let me just back up a bit and say, what made your case seem high conflict to you? Shannon Jenkins: Do you mean in terms of the legal procedure itself or prior to that? Bill Eddy: I guess primarily the legal procedure, because I think a lot of people listening may have a high conflict case and wonder, how do you come out at the other end with some hope? So what made it a high conflict legal case? Shannon Jenkins: I guess one of the first giveaways, which was prior to my ex filing against me, opening a procedure in the family court, was that there was zero and I mean zero chance of negotiation. Zero. I tried many a time back and forth. My now partner, my now fiance was acting as a mediator to some capacity. And even he said is... And he's managed a lot of people in his lifetime in work. He said, "I have never come across somebody so obstinate, somebody with whom there is no budging. I think you've mentioned in one of your books, it's their way or the highway." And that is exactly, exactly it. That was the first giveaway and realizing that the legal case became inevitable. I tried to prolong it. The empath in me wanted to compromise, but again, that didn't work. In terms of the legal case itself, there was a lot of endless legal letters about nonsense that was intentional to increase my legal fees. That was a common tactic that burnt quite literally to the extent that I needed to say to my lawyer, "Please, we cannot respond to a daily letter," because it really became that consistent over 18th to two year period. And then in terms of specific actions, there were a lot of completely false allegations. Child abuse allegations, pedophilia, all kinds of abuse, neglect on my part, completely false separate legal cases, which were a distraction of sorts to the primary legal case, which was to sue me for his business class flights to the other side of Australia. Or to accuse my mother of property damage or accuse her of family violence and he needed a restraining order. There was a lot of separate legal cases that were being taken out at the same time. So that was also another giveaway. Bill Eddy: That sounds like a classic high conflict case where there's just conflict everywhere. Megan Hunter: Ticked all the boxes, didn't it? I mean, and your case, even it was referred to child protective services, yes? Shannon Jenkins: No, it wasn't. Megan Hunter: No? Shannon Jenkins: He tried to, I think, on alleging that it was me who was being abusive, but actually they never took that up whatsoever. I think that somewhat, the irony is that his behavior became so outrageous and preposterous but only after a substantial period of time, I might add, that it was his own downfall. He was digging his own grave because the allegations became so scandalous that it was hard to believe. And of course, they were not substantiated. So he would make all of these wild allegations in affidavits that he would submit to various courts. But then there was nothing there that he could attach to say that's actually what happened. And that landed in stark contrast to of course, what I was consistently trying to do throughout my own legal case, which was to remain incredibly factual and always have evidence to back up my points. Bill Eddy: Well, that's part of kind of the next question is how did you decide to get good decisions in terms of parenting plan and finances? What kind of approaches did you use? And I guess you've already answered, did you consider out of court methods that you did, but they just didn't happen like such as mediation. So how did you decide how to approach your case? Shannon Jenkins: I think actually, whilst you both, and I understand whilst you say that you are reticent to give labels, to attach labels to people, I fully understand that. But at the period of time for me that I was going through this, that really helped. Not in terms of launching that as an attack to him or- weapon. Megan Hunter: As a weapon? Shannon Jenkins: Yeah, exactly. Weaponizing that. I continued to do what you said, which was to illustrate through behaviors rather than throwing out the labels, because of course that means nothing in courts anyway. But it gave me a framework to be able to understand, detect, and then predict behaviors that I imagined or would ensue. So for example, at the time that the legal procedure started, I would not say that there was any form of legal abuse. That ended up becoming incredibly so, not withstanding what I mentioned before about the endless frivolous filings of lawsuits, but yeah. All linked to that. In terms of resources, so whilst I was reading books and trying to understand a little bit about potential personality disorders and how that could link to my partner, I did get a lawyer. Bill Eddy: Good. Shannon Jenkins: I started off with legal aid because I was struggling at the time. I was a university student. My child was six months old. I had really limited income, but I knew that the thing I had was being intelligent. And I knew that I had to use that in some capacity. So Google's a great thing. I mean, come on, you can Google so much stuff like- Megan Hunter: So true. Shannon Jenkins: There are resources out there, so I think actually as much as I was instructing a lawyer to assist, I was also emotional side of it having counselor and so on to help me through some of it. And then also resources that I found online. And I think really this holistic kind of approach is necessary when you are dealing with somebody who doesn't behave in a "normal" way. Megan Hunter: Right. Now you all also are large range now, you are an attorney at this point. Shannon Jenkins: Well, no, I wasn't an attorney. So I ended up studying business law as a second major at university. So I never actually went down the legal route, but that helped me so much. It really did. And the irony was that actually I ended up being so-called trapped in Australia, where I had moved to with him and our son. And the promise was that I could return, or we would return in one year's time to go back to England to finish my degree, which is where I had done three years out of four years. That was the promise. And then I ended up having to stay there because there were all sorts of threats about I'll put him on the airport watch list to make sure that, report to the Hague Convention for child abduction, and so on and so forth. I was lost in that period of time, because of course I was on the other side of the world from my family. I was on my own. I was single, I was in a very vulnerable position. But then there was still this inner part of me that was adamant that I would make it work. And fortunately, the Australian government were quite supportive. So I ended up going back to university, finishing my degree there, and intentionally taking law. So that's my big middle finger up. Bill Eddy: Let me just mention, you mentioned the Hague Convention and many of our listeners won't know what that is, but that's the convention about where you have jurisdiction over child custody issues between countries. And this is something you hear about in the news every so often. And so there's a lot of rules that most Western countries have subscribed to. And yet some haven't, but most have. And so wherever you go, the judge uses the standard. And sometimes it means letting... An Australian judge let you go to England because the rules say that's what fits your situation. So the Hague Convention, if anyone's doing international travel with a custody case going, the Hague Convention's going to come into play and you really should learn about it. And I'm sure you did learn about it. Shannon Jenkins: Well, in my instance, it was my ex ended up calling for what was known as an ex parte hearing. I wasn't even in attendance. And he filed for an immediate hearing where he could get our son's name listed on this airport watch list. What ended up ensuing is that I was not even there. I just had a letter about it from my lawyer two days later. And I had to then go and hand in my son's passport into the court for what ended up being a two year period of time until the whole case had wrapped up. Megan Hunter: Yeah. We call it the hostage passport situation, which is kind of common in these international cases. Bill Eddy: Unfortunately. Shannon Jenkins: Yes. Bill Eddy: Yes. Megan Hunter: Yeah. So you were in Australia then for how long before you were... Oh, you didn't go back to London, correct? You finished your schooling in Australia. Shannon Jenkins: Yes. I finished my university there. I started working over there and then as the... So my ex filed against me, which was actually in retaliation, another high conflict point to go back to what we were discussing earlier. He filed in the family law court in retaliation to me obtaining a family violence restraining order against him. That was one of the hardest decisions I ever made because I was really quite honestly frightened of standing up to him. Being compliant was serving its purpose. In some essence, I became anxious. Absolutely. I denied my own integrity in some form to keep the peace. But yeah, it was all done in retaliation. And then it went from there. In terms of me getting to Switzerland, it was that I responded to that filing by requesting that I could relocate to Switzerland, a country I'd previously lived in and now my current partner lives into. Bill Eddy: Yeah, well, you've described many of the common high conflict manipulations like the ex parte hearing is where you go alone to court to get some orders against the other person who isn't there to say what's really happening. And judges tend to err in favor of it being true, what they say. And then you come around later to explain whether it is or isn't. And we see a lot of rush to court with an ex parte hearing in these high conflict cases. So I'm not surprised you mentioned that. I'm also not surprised to hear that there was a domestic violence issue and that when you applied for protection, that rather than go, "Oh, okay. I better behave." It sounds like your ex was like, "Oh, okay, I'm going to top that. I'm going to go ex parte and keep you grounded for a couple years." And so this is the kind of thing we see. It's a domineering, vindictive, intrusive way of managing, which tends to be our cluster B personality disorders use those behaviors, but we're not diagnosing anybody. We're just looking at behavior patterns. So I wanted to point out these are not unusual behavior patterns in a high conflict case. Megan Hunter: And if someone really does have these behavior patterns, I think what people don't understand is that these behaviors and manipulations are not optional for them. We want to think that people have a choice in these things. And of course, everyone does have a choice at the end of the day, but the high conflict personality is a different operating system. They're driven by something very different. So they may be driven by needing to be superior, needing to be dominating, and they will find whatever manipulation and tricky way they can, right? To get what they want to dominate you, to be superior over you, to win. And so you just have to be more clever, right? Bill Eddy: Yeah. And you had to really develop your strategies and be persistent. But what do you think made it work for you? How did you go from these kinds of issues to a sense of hope and actually having things go well? Shannon Jenkins: It was a long journey. Bill Eddy: Yes. Shannon Jenkins: A long blooming journey. Well, there are a few things I would say to this. First, on the legal front, I think this might have been mentioned in one of your books was about demonstrating that the other person is high conflict and that you aren't. Bill Eddy: Yes. Shannon Jenkins: I don't know if... Yes and that, because something, an assumption perhaps that a judge could make given when things escalate, that both parties are contributing. I was angelic. I was angelic. And that meant that there were many a time I had to bite my tongue. There were many a times I needed to go and cry on my partner's shoulder, cry with my mother, scream in my closet because I could not believe what was happening, but I had to make sure that emotion was released elsewhere. And then whenever I came back to the case, it was always rational, sensible, logical, factual, all of those things and- Bill Eddy: Excellent. Shannon Jenkins: That became easier over time to the extent that it became somewhat methodical. And I can really understand if somebody's listening to this and thinking, oh, I'm so not there. Because there was a period of time where I absolutely was in that position. And I was like, how can I do this for two years? Because of course I knew that's how long the legal procedure would go on for. And I knew it wouldn't get any easier, but I think taking it little by little. Bill Eddy: Yes. Shannon Jenkins: Yes. Always bringing it back to the facts, being meticulous in documentation. Bill Eddy: Just the facts, ma'am. Shannon Jenkins: Oh, that is just so key. I cannot, I mean- Bill Eddy: Yeah. Shannon Jenkins: I was not the most organized person at all. So I think everyone about me would be incredibly surprised because I've got a formidable documentation system now with all of my folders and a chronology where I would say date, event, where I filed it. And I ended up adding to that over time. So let's say something happened that irritated me or more than irritated me. For instance, when I let my ex take our son William on a little trip for several days and he didn't return him. I did that even though I was a bit worried, especially knowing substance abuse and other things, but I was always told that it will pay in my favor in the long run. And I just have to trust, providing there's no immediate risk security, safety risk. Let that happen. And then if anything goes awry, just document, document, document. And of course those things happened. He didn't return him when he said he would, he stayed an extra day. I did have to go to court to file for a recovery order and so on. But then instead of blowing up to him, I would then go and document that. What happened on this date? When did that happen? Screenshot a text message. Add that to a file. Bill Eddy: Yes. You've really hit the nail on the head with success, which is you got to be factual and you've got to document everything even now, because a year from now, it may come up. A lot of little things, et cetera. So that's excellent. And being organized and being really the most reasonable person in the case really helps even if you're the victim of abuse when it's really hard. But in the court process, that's all the judge sees is somebody who looks upset and someone who's helpful with information, facts, and a reasonable approach. So it's hard. Shannon Jenkins: Yeah, absolutely. Bill Eddy: But it sounds like you were able to do it. I guess a question I'd ask at this point is what kind of support did you have? Because we encourage people to have a good support system to help you go through the two or three year endurance situation. Shannon Jenkins: I mean, that is just so central. No one can do this alone. No one. I remember one time having a conversation with a police officer, I was probably served by him with another court document, something of the like, knocking on my front door. And I was like, "What is happening? What is happening?" And he said, because he was familiar with him and clearly saw straight through him as well. He said, "You have got to find your allies. Find your team of allies and surround yourself with them because that is the only way you'll get through this." And that was quite a wonderful thing to hear from a police officer because a lot of us when we don't have any interaction, let's say with the police, which I hadn't at that point, there was a little bit of fear. Like, oh, this is weird. Police knocking on my door. What's happening? What's happening? But actually seeing, in some respects, these people as being there to help me and I can report a behavior that is abusive and so on. So there was the whole legal, police, et cetera, people that I had around me there. I did have one lawyer. I actually had another lawyer who I highly suspect is a narcissist actually. That's- Bill Eddy: It does happen sometimes. Megan Hunter: Shocking. So shocking. Shannon Jenkins: Yeah. And that was actually a very hard story for me, I think because I was just so in this that I was very triggered by him. And then in the end I realized, okay, that's what it is. And he cannot be on this team. That was a hard decision because I'm, in some respects, a bit of a people pleaser. I want to be kind and nice. And he was very strong willed and tough. And I think he was the barrister that was recommended by my solicitor. And then I think in order to fight the bigger character so like... Do we need a tough guy to fight another tough guy? But actually that was so not the case. I think I really needed somebody who was sensible, calm, and compassionate. And I think this is the thing with finding the right legal professional to help you. I remember on the first occasion I phoned because I knew I needed a lawyer. And I said that I think this is going to be a high conflict case. And I was nervous and said, "Oh, and I think he's a narcissist." Of course didn't really have all the words and things at the time. And she laughed. She laughed. And for me, I came off of that feeling so somehow dishonored and somehow quite even more fragile. And I think my partner who has been just the shining light, my current partner who I developed a relationship with throughout that time was like, "No, you need to find somebody else who will support you with compassion and kindness and recognize this case for what it is, which is that you have been and continue to be in an abusive relationship." Bill Eddy: Yeah. Shannon Jenkins: In terms of other people, the right family, the right friends. That's hard because it's not going to always be the people that you hope it's going to be. And I certainly had a couple of family members that I had to let go of. And that was really painful because my ex had wormed his way into their lives. Bill Eddy: Oh, that happens. Shannon Jenkins: Particularly, they had money. That was a... Quite a bit of money in comparison to the rest of my family. So I think that was a motivating factor, let's say. And yeah, I had to let them go because I knew that they would just feed information back and forward. They really didn't have my back at all. So it was really a tell of knowing who is there for you in the hardest of times. Bill Eddy: Good, good. Let me emphasize because a couple things you said are so important for our listeners to absorb. In the really high conflict cases, it's not unusual that a high conflict person will work their way into your family and turn some of your family members against you with misinformation, but it's emotional. And so they go, "Oh, she really did this. She really did that. She's really terrible family member," and that can be really uncomfortable. And sometimes you really have to put up set boundaries with that. The other thing I wanted to emphasize too, is there's a myth that you have to have a high conflict lawyer to deal with an opposing high conflict lawyer. And there's actually research that says that a reasonable assertive lawyer is equally successful to an aggressive lawyer. And that in family court especially, because the judges get familiar with manipulations and who's who. You really want someone who's recognized, who has a good reputation as a reasonable person who's fact focused. So I'm so glad you mentioned those and so sad you had to go through those situations. Shannon Jenkins: Thank you. Megan Hunter: Those are not easy. And so how did things turn out court wise? And then also I'd like to ask you about your son and how he kind of fared through this and how he's faring now. Shannon Jenkins: Well, in relation to the court procedure, I think one of the benefits... So going to your point, Bill, about having a reasonable, assertive lawyer, I definitely had that in the end. It was a woman, probably mid-thirties, I'd say. Had never done an international relocation case before. So I think that was quite significant for her, but I felt like that we had a good connection between us and I was safe in that space and so on. And she would always have to say to me, "We're playing the long game. This is not a sprint. This is a marathon." She said that day one of our first consultation, she said, "Get yourself a therapist. You're going to need it," of which I definitely did. But this long game, what was interesting in that was that tables turned at a certain point. I would say around the 18 month mark. So it was a long slog where there were endless attacks really every week. And I remember this is a distinct memory because of course the details blur into just one big, giant mess. But I knew that every week there was some kind of blow in some capacity, whether that would be a vindictive legal case, a derogatory remark, false allegations of something. It would go on and on and on. I would meticulously document as I was suggesting, but that irritated him. Of course, it did. Megan Hunter: Of course, it did. Shannon Jenkins: Because everything... Of course it did, because he was baiting me and he was like, I'll throw her this one. I'll throw her this one. Of course that's going to work. And of course I loved him dearly. So he was somebody that I shared my whole world with, my whole inner world, all of my deepest insecurities and vulnerabilities, some things that I've never shared with anyone else. And then of course that was completely weaponized against me. Those remarks were shared with people that I didn't want to know about a certain thing. And I had to just let all of that go. And that was really, really hard. But each and every time he threw me that bait and I didn't catch on, I let it go. And of course he didn't know what happened in private, so he can guess, but he never saw me break out into any emotional fit or anything like that. That increasingly infuriated him to the extent that he made regular mistakes and then became increasingly preposterous in what he was doing. Like I said, with the allegations that I was saying. They came at a point which really revealed to me more of the antisocial kind of character, because it just ended up being so wild that no one was ever going to believe it. And that was really a key part of my success. Now that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't have put in the work through that 18 months period prior, because if I had of risen to the bait, he would've used that as ammunition to just blaze me down. And of course everything was embellished and exaggerated anyway. So if there was ever any slight thing, of course he turned it into something else. But when it just came out in any affidavit that was filed, not only final affidavit but interim affidavits and other interim proceedings within that larger case, they were just baseless. Completely baseless and so easy to disprove. That's what became easy in the sense that it won me the legal case, but it became more difficult emotionally. Bill Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that helps to understand that antisocial personality. So you don't take it personally, even though it has a personal impact. That's so sad. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but sounds like you dealt with it the way you need to deal with it is just very assertively. Shannon Jenkins: Yes. Megan Hunter: Shannon, did you find yourself confused? You were saying you loved this person dearly but all of these things were happening and the accusations and manipulations and betrayal of confidences. And that I find often, with someone with some of that antisocial personality, there's a confusion. Shannon Jenkins: All the time. So much. So much. And this is what I'm saying before about having resources that can assist, because what struck me with reading books such as yours is that their behaviors follow a pattern. Bill Eddy: Yes. Shannon Jenkins: And that pattern helped me to see things less personally, to have a greater grasp. But even now, being completely honest, and this has been what? Four years that we've separated, a year since the end of this legal case, I still have moments where if somebody asked me to summarize what happened or in what ways was he abusive for example, I find that really difficult, even though I know that was the case. And in fact, it was even addressed by the judge. So if there's anything that's making me doubt, I should really rely on that, which is the judge saying, "No, this was an abusive case. And he abused the legal system to perpetuate what was ongoing abuse against you." But I regularly doubted myself because I wanted to... I loved him. Megan Hunter: Sure. Shannon Jenkins: I loved him and I had a child with him and this was not the life that I imagined for myself. So of course there were all these things where a part of me didn't want to believe that. A part of me that thought, was it always a game? Were you always manipulating me or did you love me in some capacity? I played all of that over and over again until some point that I realized I think I just let it go. And knowing that I was never going to have all the answers because none of the answers were ever going to be true either. Megan Hunter: I think that was a wise move on your part that you can't solve it all and you have to let it go, to just live your life and be able to let it go. Shannon Jenkins: I'll add a little bit about William going to the second part of what you asked before. I think there was some benefit strangely in him being young. He was six months old when we separated, two and a half or so by the time the final judgment was made. I do think it's had an impact on him. I still question what I should be doing sometimes, how I should approach I say, co-parenting. There isn't really... And this is really the gift of the perhaps living such a kind of crazy story that it was, I was granted sole parental responsibility. So I do not need to consult my ex, his father, for any decision. That's helped in granting me a liberty that I didn't have before. And it's minimized conflict of course, as well. And that is shielding then William. And then other than that, we have a wonderful life here in Switzerland now. So I don't know, like Sound of Music. He's going to a school with these beautiful rolling green mountains and hills, playing outside in the flowers. And yeah, he's doing very well developmentally. He's learning French, which he's doing... He's a total pro at. He's going to beat me soon. Yeah. He's doing well. We've come out of it really, really great on the other side. And of course that's a thing that matters the most as a mother. Bill Eddy: Yes. Megan Hunter: Right. Bill Eddy: Well, that's really kind of a nice note I think to wrap up on is the positive, the optimistic, and the success. Megan Hunter: Absolutely. And, Shannon, thank you so very much for sharing your story. And I know it can't be easy talking about it, even though you have your own podcast and think about this and have talked about it a lot of times. It can still be so personal and so we really appreciate you sharing this because I know it will help someone. There's no doubt about that. So thank you from us. And I'm really happy that you read Bill's book. I think it was the Five Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life. Shannon Jenkins: Yes. And then Dating Radar as well which I gifted my friends a few copies because I was like, "I am not going through this again. Not for me, but definitely not for you guys. So you have got to get clued up." Megan Hunter: Good, good. That's a really great gift. Don't you think, Bill? Bill Eddy: Oh, yeah. It is. We encourage it for college students, for people going through divorce. Any age relatives starting about 15, I think. Megan Hunter: Exactly. Bill Eddy: But I also want to put in a plug for the book Splitting the second addition, because that includes some of the strategy of presenting to court, which really includes many of the strategies that you used, Shannon. So that's another one if people are facing similar situations. We talk about borderline narcissists and antisocial personality, predictable patterns, and predictable ways to deal with them. Because there's a narrow range of behavior, like Megan said, it takes them over. They stop having a choice and this is just who they are, but you can deal with that. And I think Shannon's such a great example. You can come out the other end doing well or even better. Shannon Jenkins: Thank you. Megan Hunter: Yeah. And can speak to it so eloquently and with such wisdom. So you'll find the link to Shannon's podcast and her website in the show notes. And we'll also put the links to our books Dating Radar, Five Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life, and the Splitting book that Bill just mentioned. So thank you again, Shannon. Shannon Jenkins: You're very welcome. Megan Hunter: In next week's episode, we're joined by another guest, Susie Rainer, who is actually a member of our team at HCI. She's our New Ways manager. And she just so happened to be visiting us from her home country, also of Australia, as of the recording with her. So we passed on the opportunity to have her and Bill have a conversation about New Ways for families, New Ways for teens, New Ways for mediation, and New Ways for the workplace. So you won't want to miss that and you'll hear another great Australian accent. So send your questions to podcast at highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. Tell all your friends about us. And we'd be very grateful if you'd give us a review wherever you listen to our podcast. Until next week, have a great week and keep learning about high conflict behavior so you can manage it in your life, you can influence it in your life, and contain it. So keep searching for the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes, and transcripts at truestory.fm or highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.