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The grief advice nobody gives you #8 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The world is Free Therapy. Hello, Hello, Welcome to Free Therapy.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: I'm Ben and I'm Kevin, and every week we sit
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: down with a different therapist to talk about the stuff
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: that everyone's struggling with but nobody's talking about. And this
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: is a really special episode. First, this week, Ben lost
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: his dad, Mickey, who I loved, to pancreatic cancer about
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: three years ago, and I never realized how hard it
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: is to support someone you love who's grieving. So with
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Father's Day coming up, we brought on one of the
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: countries leading grief therapists and experts, Clara Bidwell Smith.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: If you've ever lost someone you love, you know hard
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: and isolating it can be it completely shatters you. On
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: this episode, we talk about how conscious grieving can help
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: you heal from loss, the link between anxiety and grief
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: that nobody talks about, and how to support someone you
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: love when they are grieving. So if you have a
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: friend who's struggling with grief right now, please share this
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: episode with them. It was one of our favorite episodes
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: so far, and we hope this conversation helps.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Let's get into it all right, Claire, thanks for coming
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: on today. Thanks such a joy to have you here, Claire,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I'm excited. Yeah, me too.
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: It's a weird thing to say about grief when you
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: talk about Yeah.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Today we'll figure out why that's that's possible for everyone
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: who doesn't know. Claire is one of the I think
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: most trusted experts on grief and therapists on grief in
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: the country, has five books on loss, four of which
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: are right in front of us here. And you've said,
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: I think with thousands of people experiencing grief and loss,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: and I'm just really glad that we can have you
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: here today to you know, give everyone some free therapy,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: I'm glad to and share about, you know, our own
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: experiences with grief and loss. Yeah.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: And I think when Kevin and I were planning out
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: our podcast, Father's Day was coming up, and keV is like, Ben,
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: I think we should do a grief episode on Father's
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Day because three years ago, actually like two days before
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: Father's Day, I lost my dad and Kevin was there
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: for me the whole time. He was kind of my
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: support and in that process of losing my dad, it
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: was it was hard, was one of the hardest things
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: I'd ever been through, and I didn't really know what
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: to do. And I think being with my mom and
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: my brothers, everyone just felt a little bit lost. But
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: I had a friend like Kevin to help me get
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: through it. And we thought on this episode it would
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: be so helpful to talk about grief, how to grieve,
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: What about grief are we doing right? What about grief
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: are we doing wrong? And I think for the person
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: who's grieving, you know, advice for them or what I've experienced.
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: And I know you've had some loss as well, and
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: you know, Kevin has had a unique situation where we've
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: had multiple friends lose their dads over the last ten
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: year and he's been there for all of it. Yeah,
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: and that's a unique experience as well, and I look
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: forward to hearing kind of your point of view about that.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: And yeah, so having you here is really special on
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: this you know, it's a yeah, it's always hard when
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: that anniversary comes around, right.
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I know the anniversaries are real. Yeah, you feel it,
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: You start to feel it before it's even here. You
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: feel it in like the weeks and months leading up.
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: You just kind of have that sense memory, feel it
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: under your skin.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Can I ask you a little bit about your
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: dad and your loss.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love you to thank you.
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: Would you tell me your dad's name?
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Mickey? He was His name is Michael what we called
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: him Mickey.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: He was a fun te Micky Teller. He's if you
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: know me, you know the type of dad I have,
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: which was just like so fun and outgoing and loved
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: classic rock to the point where I'm wearing his shirt today.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: You know, yeah, because you know the second the first
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: concert you have it took me to was Fleewood mac
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: Nice And the second concert he took me to was
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: Eric Clapton.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: So I'm like eleven too.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so actually he wore this all the time,
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: and when he passed, he gave me some of his clothes, and.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: This is the concert I actually went to. Wow. I
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: was only twelve, so I didn't know amazing.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: So I wear it a lot. My friends are like, wow,
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: you really like these cut sleeve shirts. And I was like,
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: I feel like I want to get close to him.
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I love that. I'm wearing my mom's ear
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: rings and one of her rings. I always have these
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: things on.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I'm wearing his watch, I'm wearing his necklace. Right.
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: I remember when he gave me both when he was alive,
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: he was like, I want you to have these. So
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: I always try to embody my dad. I enjoy feeling him.
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: You experience that absolutely. My mom was a force. I
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: lost my mom at eighteen, and she was, you know,
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: just my world. She was fun and sexy and vibrant
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: and like through a million parties and had a million
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: friends and was just a really fun mom to have
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: and just always made me feel so loved. And the
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: way I feel close to her now is being like
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: her and bringing forth those qualities that mattered to me.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: What was her name? Sorry? Really, Sally? Really quick about that.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: I find it amazing when someone asked me his name
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: if they don't know me. I love when someone who
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: knew him tells me a story.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, absolutely, don't know that you can do that.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: What about asking what they were like?
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, any of it. I think people are so
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: afraid to ask about someone's person because they're weirdly. They
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: think that if they bring it up, they're going to
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: upset you, and that maybe you haven't been thinking about it.
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: But of course we're thinking about it. That's always with us.
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: And so I think when someone brings up our person
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: and asks questions and tells stories. It feels so good,
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: it feels so relieving, and I think it can feel
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: really lonely when people don't ask, you know.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: So for someone who has friends who are going through
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: loss or a family bringing it up, is there a
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: right way to do it or time or is it
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: really just that if someone's experiencing loss, they are grieving, yeah,
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: and you're never going to be reminding them of it.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: I think I have this all the time. I never
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: know what to say.
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, there's no perfect time or thing to say.
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: But the things that is wrong to do is to
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: not talk about it and to not bring it.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Up at all.
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: So a lot of people they're afraid to bring it up.
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: They're afraid of saying the wrong thing. They're afraid of
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: upsetting their friend or their you know whoever, their family member,
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: and so they just don't talk about it and they
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: try to act like everything's fine and normal. Meanwhile, I'm
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: sure you understand the grieving person is like, all you're
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: really thinking about and feeling all the time is this
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: loss and missing and all of it. And so when
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: someone does bring it up, it's just like you know,
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: bringing the elephant into the room and acknowledging it and
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: making it feel like you know your friend can be
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: in it with you and you don't feel alienated or alone.
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: But sometimes it's as simple as saying, you know, I've
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: been thinking about you a lot, like how are you feeling,
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: Like how is it feeling for you today? And if
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: someone's grieving and really doesn't want to talk about it,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: they'll probably just tell you that like I just can't
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: today or I can't talk about it. Most of the time,
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: I think you'll find like the relief is there and
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: they're like, oh, it's hard having a hard time, or
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: I'm missing him.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: Or I found those first. The heavy grieving period after
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: to be the most isolating and loneliness because there was
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: a period for me where he was sick for a
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: year and a half with cancer before he died, right
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: so there was a lot of the community knew he
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: was dying, and I knew he was dying, and that
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: anticipatory grief was like very challenging. I was very afraid
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: of what was what it was going to feel like.
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: And when it happened, it was like everything went quiet.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: I felt so calm and relieved because I was going through.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: So much pain. But I was also so empty inside.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: There was this thing that I couldn't recognize that was happening. Yeah,
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: and I just sat there and it was like quiet,
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: and I felt so alone. And so when friends were like,
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: how are you, it's hard to be like, I feel
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: like absolute shit.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: I have never felt worse in my life. That's But
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: also the people that would just say thinking of you, yeah,
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: not even like it.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: That's it. That's all you have to say, thinking about you.
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  Speaker 2: I remember your mom telling me. I think I asked
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: how are you once, and she said, that's the worst
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: question you could ask me right now?
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Okay?
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: What do I ask?
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And you know, she gave me some other things
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: to say. I think she said, what are you doing
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: to take care of yourself this week?
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: That's a nice one.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: And someone gave me like a few people like send
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: me door dash gift cards because it's so hard to
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: think about the food you want to cook.
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's hard to think about anything practical. Yeah, Yeah,
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: And that's such a nice thing. Or someone can just
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: show up and like take out your trash, or take
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: your dog for a walk, or just you know, drop
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: food off on the doorstep. Things like that are really nice,
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: or just show up and knock on the door and give.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: You a hug.
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: I had a friend who went through some pregnancy loss recently,
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: and I was so heartbroken for her, and I'm like
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: the grief expert over here, and I couldn't think of
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: the right thing to say. I mean, I sent her
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: the obvious thinking of you text and love you, and
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: she was really quiet, and I finally just drove over
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: to our house like ten days later, and I just
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: knocked on the door and she came to the door
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: in her bathrobe and we just held each other in
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: the doorway and sobbed together. And I was like, that
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: was it. That was the thing, you know, there was
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: nothing else to do.
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, people who are grieving and going through grief, my
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: experience was confusing, right. People had told me what it
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: would be like. I had older cousins who were mentors
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: that were like, after the funeral, they were like, enjoy
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: this community because it's going to get.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Much quieter and much harder.
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And that scared me, right, And I think the
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: year after most people just kind of go on with
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: their life now that they forget that I lost my
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: dad but those are the moments that are actually the
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: hardest because my life feels incredibly different and I'm not
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: sure what to do. Yeah, And I think in that moment,
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: I was trying to actually feel my dad more because
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: we have a Rabbi, Nami Levy, this woman that we
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: go to. We actually love her a lot.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: She's so sweet.
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: I was getting a little more spiritual. I was really
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: just trying to get in touch.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: I was so lost.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: And she said she had lost her her mom too,
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: and she said, when you lose someone your soul at
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: the time, it might feel incomplete, but you actually take
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: a piece of that person who left, and that actually
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: makes that's actually the part that you take from them
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: and never feel alone, right. Yeah.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. She was saying that we often think about when
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: someone has passed, that the things that we do in
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: our lives are for them, Like you may you know
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: talking about your mom, have you know that experience of
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: being that person or in ways, And she was like,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: it's not only that, it's actually the spark of them
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: that continues to live through you.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And that to me actually made me feel better.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: Then I was like, wait, I don't want to not
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: feel my dad anymore. I want to try my hardest
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: to feel him.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the jewelry, the clothes.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: Before this podcast, I went into a room and I
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: got such good advice. Before he died, people were like,
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: this is what you should do, record conversations, asking these
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: twenty things. And I did it all. I remember sitting
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: in the jacuzzie, didn't know when he was going to die.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: Two months before. We just did an hour and a
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: half conversation and I asked them twenty five questions.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: I said, what should I name my son? What's your favorite.
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: Memory you're going to make?
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: I said, I said, what kind of woman do you
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: think I'm going to be with? What are some things
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: I should work on? What's your first memory of me?
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Wow? What's your been your biggest surprise of your life?
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: What a gift? And before the podcast, I just went
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: and listened to it.
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: Wow, and what a gift. That's an amazing thing. Who
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: told you to do that?
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: My mutual friend Craig clements Craig Craig told me I lost.
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: His dad, okay, and he was going to say to
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: who did he lose?
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: He was young, and he goes, this is the advice
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: someone gave me. And we had a friend who lost
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: his dad recently. His dad was sick and he was
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: what should I do? How do I do it? I said,
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: this has been the best advice I ever got. And
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: do I have these? I so I have endless recordings
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: of my dad that I can just listen to and
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: then I can close my eyes and I can be
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: with them.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: Wow, I wish I had those of my mom. That's
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: really cool. I've spent all my adult life, you know,
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: wishing she were here, wondering what she would think of
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: things I've done in my life, or raising kids, are
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: getting married, all that stuff. I wish I had those answers.
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: We live in such a grief and death averse culture,
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: and nobody wants to face it until it's happened, and
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: then they're like, wait, there's so much I wish I
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: had done, And I wish that we were more proactive
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: like this and did ask those questions. Did get that
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: advice to really sit down and be present and gather
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: that information, have those moments. That's such a beautiful gift
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: that you got.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel lucky.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, what's the process that you both were sharing,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: how you have the pieces from your mom and your
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: dad the necklace of the ring. What's the process? And
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: I think I see a lot of people going through
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: grief who don't want to be re minded. I've just
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: noticed that even in some friends. What's the process of
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: going from that place? Did you have that phase? Did
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: you have that phase? And then how did it get
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: to the place where you actually want to embrace and
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: keep them with you at all times? At least it's a.
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: Good question, you know. I think what it lends itself
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: to is a kind of bigger picture that the losses
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: that we go through are sometimes very complicated. We're talking
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: about really healthy, loving relationships that we have with a parent.
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: Sounds like you didn't really have any conflict or outstanding
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: stuff with your dad. I mean, maybe the regular, but
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: some people have incredibly complicated relationships. Maybe they were estranged
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: from someone they lost, or maybe their person was abusive
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: on some levels, or just a really complicated person. Or
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: sometimes we were complicated and you know, made the relationship hard,
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: and then the person dies and we have a lot
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: of guilt, we have a lot of regret, we have
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: a lot of anxiety. And that's when I see people
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: avoid getting close, or avoid reminders, avoid wanting to, you know,
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: wear the jewelry or the shirt or look at photos
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: because they haven't worked through some of those complicated layers.
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: I think when you have a pretty loving, healthy relationship
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: and you lose someone, you pretty immediately want to be
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: close to them and bring them and keep them and
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: have those reminders. But grief is not a hallmark movie.
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: Like a lot of people go through very complicated losses,
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: or the death itself was complicated and traumatic, or you know,
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: I work with a lot of people who've lost someone
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: to a horrific accident where maybe somebody was at fault
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: or you know, things like that, and it's just really
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: hard to move through those pieces before you can get
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: to that kind of cleaner, more loving, beautiful, spiritual relationship
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: with the person you lost.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: Someone told me that death is really messy no matter
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: how it happens, right, Like some are beautiful and passing
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: your sleep at an old day. Very few mostly very few, right, Yeah,
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: And so everyone's experience in their life it's just like
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: very turbulent. And I think that the people who wish
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: it was easier, I think also creates the friction, because
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: for me, there was like it wasn't the easiest death
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: at the end, and there was a lot of anger
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: about how it was happening. And I think my mom
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: gave me really good advice. She's like, try to forget
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: the last couple months because that's not who your dad was, right,
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: try to remember all the good times. Look at pictures
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: of him when he was dancing and smiling and wearing
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: wigs and being the guy that you loved, and do
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: your best to not hold on to the end. It
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: took me two and a half years to lose that.
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: I would guess around three years, you're probably not remembering
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: those last weeks as much as you were in the beginning.
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: They do fade, but a lot of people grapple with that.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: You know, death is messy and it's rarely pretty. But
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: I've given birth three times and that's also not for me,
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: and it's really messy, and it's like there's a lot
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: of screaming and blood and all kinds of stuff and death.
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's not easy to come into the world,
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: it's not easy to leave. And our bodies, you know, deteriorate,
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: and we watch our loved ones suffer and we watch
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: them go through a very physical process that's so hard
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: to witness. It's really hard.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: How would you.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: Say that grief ties into anxiety. I know you wrote
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: about that a little bit. You talk about anxiety and grief.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: You talk about kind of like maybe the five stages.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: Maybe you could just share some people a little bit
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: of like a general.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Playbook. Maybe.
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: I think everyone has like the five stages that they've
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: heard of Google Ross, and I know you have a
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: different approach.
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: So there's a lot of misconceptions around grief and Kubla
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: Ross Elizabeth Kiplar Ross did coin the five stages of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: But you know what is interesting is that she was
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: a psychiatrist working in a hospital here in the States
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: in the sixties, and she was going around visiting patients
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: who were dying, so they were approaching their own death,
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: they'd received a terminal diagnosis, and she was interviewing them.
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: She noticed that the other doctors, mostly male, were going
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: around ticking off symptoms and looking at physical stuff and
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: weren't talking to the patients about their experience, their emotional,
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: spiritual experience of dying. She really, you know, got in
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: there and started talking to them about it and what
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: she realized was that they were going through those five
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: stages when they received a terminal diagnosis. They were first
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: in denial about it, then they were angry about it.
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: Then they were bargaining, you know, oh, maybe if I
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: quit smoking or I get back in touch with God,
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: I won't die. Then they would slink into depression and
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: then they would come around to a level of acceptance
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: about their impending death. That makes a lot of sense
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: when you apply it to a dying person. She later
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: also applied it to the grief process, and it just
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: doesn't work as well. And she herself said, it's not
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: a linear process. It's not a perfect formula. It does
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: work on some level, but not entirely. And there's a
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: lot more feelings and experiences that happen beyond those five stages.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: And I think most people know about the five stages.
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: I mean, you hear about them all the time. So
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: when you go through a loss for the first time,
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: you're like, what are those five stages? What are the
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: five things I need to do right now? On the
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: other side, yes, I can't tell you. How many clients
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: come to see me and they're like, I think I
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: skipped one. I think I'm stuck in one, you know,
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: and it just made one up, like you do all
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: kinds of stuff. And so Elizabeth Kobla Ross herself was
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: an incredible pioneer in the death and dying movement. I
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: don't want to throw her out with the bathwater, but
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: we've definitely moved beyond those five stages. I think anxiety
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: is definitely a big component of grief and loss. Not
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: for everybody, not every single person experiences it, but a
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: lot of people feel incredible anxiety after they go through
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: a significant loss, and it makes sense they were ill
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: prepared for the death, you know, whether it was sudden
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: or whether just even through the medical system, they didn't
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: feel prepared. They didn't have the conversations at the end,
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: they didn't resolve a complicated relationship. They're also just all
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: struck by death. I mean, we think we know that
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: we're mortal, and we don't know until the person that
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: we've known our whole lives, our dad, is gone. You know,
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: that is a very different experience of our own mortality.
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: And it makes you think about death everywhere and how
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: we're all going to die in this way that you
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: really have never thought about. And that's scary. It's anxiety provoking.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: Then there's all the ways our lives change. Just like
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: you were talking about after your dad was gone, your
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: life changes immeasurably in so many ways that a lot
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: of people don't see or perceive. Every experience you move through,
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: everything you every experience you meet, every new relationship, a job,
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: a success, a failure. Your dad's death is with you
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: through that, and so it causes a lot of anxiety.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: You're suddenly living in a new world that you felt
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: unprepared for as well. So people experience panic attacks, social phobias,
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: people become suddenly afraid of flying, all kinds of stuff,
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: and it's a really interesting component of it. So I've
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: wrote a book called Anxiety, The Missing Stage of Grief,
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: and I myself, my predominant response to my mother's death
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: was absolute anxiety. I just the floor dropped out from
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: underneath me. I was sitting in my dorm room just
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: panic attacking it out, you know, And I couldn't find
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: anything out there about anxiety and grief. I thought there
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: was something else wrong with me. I thought like, there
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: was my mom's death and my dad's impending death, and
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: then there was like this other anxie xiety problem, right,
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: And when I really started to unpack it and learn
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: and study trauma, I began to realize that they were,
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: of course very connected.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: And is the antidote to that anxiety that comes from
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: out of grief different from anxiety that is experience in
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: life a little bit?
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: That's a really great question. So anxiety itself is interesting,
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: and I'm glad we're talking about it so much as
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: a culture and as a society because there is a
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: lot we can do to work on anxiety. As I'm
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: sure you guys know, there's breath work and meditation and
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: cognitive work, and there's so many things we can do
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: to tackle anxiety. So when I'm working with someone who
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: has anxiety after a loss, we're doing some of that
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: because it is, you know, it's important to just kind
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: of get a handle and start to manage the anxious
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: thoughts that come up and the anxious responses. But the
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: other piece of it when you've gone through a loss
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: is are you grieving? Are you letting yourself grieve? Are
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: you open up to it?
• 20:50
  Speaker 6: Do you have space to grieved? Are you safe to grieve?
• 20:54
  Speaker 6: Are you engaging with your grief? I like to say
• 20:57
  Speaker 6: that loss is something that happens to us, but how
• 21:00
  Speaker 6: we grieve is up to us. We have some agency
• 21:02
  Speaker 6: over the grief. We didn't have agency over the loss
• 21:04
  Speaker 6: we had couldn't do anything about it. We couldn't stop
• 21:06
  Speaker 6: it from happening. We didn't create it. It happened to us.
• 21:11
  Speaker 6: But how we grieve is up to us. So you
• 21:13
  Speaker 6: can choose to be conscious with it. And that's my
• 21:15
  Speaker 6: most recent book is Conscious Grieving, And that's like leaning
• 21:18
  Speaker 6: into it, talking about it, opening it up, picking apart
• 21:22
  Speaker 6: these pieces that might be complicated guilt, remorse, regret, complicated relationships,
• 21:28
  Speaker 6: writing about it, you know, doing things to honor the person,
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: helping yourself work through fears around you know, reminders of
• 21:35
  Speaker 6: them and thinking about them, getting therapy.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, can you go a little more into this, What
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: are the healthiest ways to grief?
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: So, you know, men always ask me this question. Men
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: men want, men want like answer all my male clients
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: want homework. They want really you know, constructive practical tools
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: and tips. But grief is tricky, Like, grief is just
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: something that you have to really feel and it's see
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: and it's unpredictable and it's different for every single person.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: I hate to give this answer because it just there's
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: no universal formula. There's no certain fix for each person.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: It's just different for every single person. Based on your
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: relationship with the person who died, based on your own personality,
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: based on the moment in time in your life, like
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: what's happening in your life, all of these different all
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: of these different components come into play. Some people are
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: super busy working, some people are raising families. Some people
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: have no money or resources. So you're working against and
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: with all of these different factors when it comes to
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: your grief. But the most important thing is to really
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: try to make space for the grief, try to open
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: up to it, find places to talk about it, write
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: about it. I love writing for grief. I mean I
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: was always a writer. I didn't want to be a
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: grief therapist when I was a kid, Like that wasn't
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: my aspiration growing up. I wanted to be a writer.
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: So I do love writing. But I think that everyone
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: can utilize writing and their grief, Like what would it
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: feel like to sit down and write your dad life?
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Better?
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: Just say to your dad, Yeah, what would you tell
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: him today? What would you want him to know?
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: You know, I talked to my dad still.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I literally will I talk to him good, and
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: I tell him all the time. I'll say, I'll ask
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: him how he's doing, and I'll say, are you enjoying
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: yourself up there? Are you fishing with Lennon and Elvis Press?
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: What are you doing? And then I'll tell him if
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: I'll say, Dad, like I'm figuring it out, Like you
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: don't have to worry about me anymore. Mom's doing much better,
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: you know. The boys are getting their lives. And we
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: miss you every day and we wish you were here,
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: but we were grateful for the time that we had.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: And we still talk about you all the time and
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: we feel you and.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: You're a part of us.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I find I find time when I'm available
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: to connect with him. I will, I'll put on his
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: favorite songs and we'll just hang We'll just we'll just
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: hang in the room. And I am grateful that I can.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: I can still feel you, you know, because like I
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: want my kids to be able to know him, right,
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: and they're going to know him through me. I want
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: my girlfriend to know him. She's going to know him
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: through me, because my biggest fear is not ever feeling you. Yeah, right,
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: And so I sit with him and try to embody him.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I would tell him.
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: So Ben just answered your question, that's conscious grieving. It's
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: not it's not easy.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: Did you bring to We didn't talk about it. We
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: just bro.
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: I'm not doing my job if someone's not crying.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I loved that question, you know.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: I when I was feeling alone, I actually was like
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: who can I look to to, Like, how do I
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: how do I grieve? And I started to like look
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: for advice and I didn't really know where to look right,
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: Like I you know, I was I was sick ten
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: years ago and I had cancer. But I never really
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: like did any support groups. I did it alone, and
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: it really actually isolated me in that experience, even though
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: a lot of people deal with cancer. And so when
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: my dad had died, I was like, we had a
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: lot of people, right, I've lost their fathers, but like
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: you don't like you can call a friend, but I
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: just they weren't in the same grief iowa.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: So I went to support groups, good.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: Alone, anonymous support groups and started talking about my dad,
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: and I met older men who had experienced this or
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: they had a son my age, or I met people
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: who actually had just lost their parent, and it made
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: me feel less alone.
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so helpful to hear other people talk about
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: it too. There's the part about being able to share
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: ourselves when we're in it, but then also just hearing
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: that other people are going through it and having those
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: aha moments where you're like, oh my god, you too
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: feel like that. And I thought that I was alone
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: in this and it's so healing, it's so important.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: There's a couple of things that when people lose their parent.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: I share a couple of things that helped me, And.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: I say, the grief feels like a rock in your pocket,
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: and when that person dies, the rock feels like a boulder.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: But over time the rock turns into a stone, but
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: it never leaves your pocket.
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: Never.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: And people wish they would stop grieving, yeah, or they
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: wish the pain would go away. And for me, that
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: made it just like one hundred times worse. I was like, oh,
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: it's always going to be here. Yeah, And I never
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: I never want like keV does such a good job
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: of bringing my dad into the conversation.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: It does such a good.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: Job of calling his presence into the room, and I
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: never want that to stop. I think more people are
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: afraid to do that. And I think I gave you
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: permission a long time ago. And you knew my dad
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: really well. My dad loved you so much, and so
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: it's nice that he knows that. And I want other
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: people to like do that more. Absolutely permission for people.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: If you're close to somebody, hey, like you know whatever
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: it is. Kevin has my dad's anniversary in his phone.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: That's my favorite thing. I have so many people's anniversaries
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: in my calendar and they're just set on annual and
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: I just a simple text or an email makes such
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: a huge difference, especially when you're years out and you're.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Like the easiest thing to do and thinking so much
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: to the person.
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: It means so much.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Like here's the thing.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: People on Instagram will post the loss right. It takes
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: two seconds to text that person. Yeah, I just saw
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: your Instagram. I'm thinking of you.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what are you doing today? How are you?
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: What was Mickey's death like for you?
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: What was Mickey's death like for me? I was I
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: was really just trying to support my friend.
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, how long had you known him?
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: I'd known him for more or less ten years at
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: that point. Yeah, yeah, And he was like a vibrant soul,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Like he was so fun.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: Kevin was so good at supporting me. Right was my family,
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: but his responsibility was me, and so he was always
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: checking in with me. He was always like what he
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: came over so many times and we just talked really
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: like kind of how free therapy was born.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: This was like, it was totally This is where the
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: show sort of came out of. Was those conversations.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he would just.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: Come over and I would be crying on the couch
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: for an hour and he would just sit there and
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: just listen because I didn't really know.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: What to do.
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well there wasn't anything particular to do even for
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: just that. That was it? How did you know how
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: to do that?
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: Where did that come from for you? Was it hard?
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: Was it scary?
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Nine years ago one of my other best friends lost
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: his dad and we were living together at the time.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: It was a group of four of us, and that
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: process taught me a lot.
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, did you mess that one up? And then right
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: this time, where did you talk to get a job?
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: Then?
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: He was really good at being really actively involved in
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: his grief, if that makes sense. He had a chaplain
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: that he would see like every other week, and and
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: he had us all sit with the chaplain, which I thought, wow,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: that's really code. Yeah yeah, Like he was very intentional
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: about that whole process before and then after as well.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: So we all learned a lot from that process. I
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: mean it was like it was an initiation for all
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: of us into that death process. Yeah. For sure, I
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: messed up a lot, like I've stumbled through. I think
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: all of my friends losing their their dads or the
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: three that have even with my most recent friend, like
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: tried to show up as much as I can, and
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: then there's areas where you mess up because everyone's different
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: and everyone needs different things, and.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: Like everyone's personality is different what they want totally.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: And I assume or I try to guess. That's the thing,
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Like you try and guess what someone wants or what's
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: important to them, what might not be as important to them,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: but it's never you never know.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: So but I think what's interesting here is that he
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: the thing that Kevin did really well was just his presence.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Right, we're not talking.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Yes totally, and I agree with that.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: And that was the thing that people miss.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: The thing I've learned the most in this process is
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: when I was young, I used to try and fix
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: things a lot. That was like what I learned, and
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: it was just when someone's sad or heard, and it's like,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: well can I do to help? And what I've learned
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: through all these processes are just often there's nothing to say.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: It's just the presence that's important and the I'm here
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: for you, I love you.
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: You can't fix it. Yeah, you just show up and
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: you be in it with them.
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: I used to ask what do you need?
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: We don't know what we need.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: But then my friend who just lost his dad was like,
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: please never ask me that question. And I was like, ah, right, Yeah,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: He's like, I don't know what the fuck I need
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: right now. Yeah, and he's like, just do what you
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: think would feel really nice for me. And he's like,
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: and if it's not what it is, it's fine. It'll
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: still feel nice because you try to do something. Yeah.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Those are the kinds of things that you just learn,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: you know, going through it.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: What traditions have you found? Cultural traditions, Religious traditions have
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: been the most supportive of a healthy grieving process.
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: I mean there's lots, It's really varied across cultures.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: And are there any specific.
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think anything where you're coming together, you know,
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: Shiva memorials, all of those kinds of things, you know
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: are really helpful, anyone coming together to honor the person
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: being in it with the person who's grieving the family
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: who's grieving. And but then you can extend those traditions
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: for years in different ways. My kids and I always
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: do an altar around Dadela's martos and we put up
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: we just do it like a table in our kitchen,
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: and we we get out all the photos of every
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: person that we've lost, people they've never met, grandparents that
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: I had that they definitely never met. We put flowers,
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: we put little trinkets, and my kids are really into it.
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: So I think a lot about my kids never met
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: either of my parents, and so my constant work is
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: to bring my parents into their lives. I never say
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: my parents around them, I say your Grandma Sally, your
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: Grandpa Jerry, so that they always think about them as theirs,
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: not mom's parents.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: So so we do things like that, and so we
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: put photos out, do all of that. At Christmas, I
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: give them presents from Grandma Sally and Grandmass and so
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: they're like, oh, Grandma. Sally always gets me something good.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: You know, do you think about what Sally would give? Oh?
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah I did.
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: When I am having a strong emotion, that emotion can
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: show up in a dream but it looks different, but
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: the emotion is real. So like when my dad was
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: after he died, I was grieving and I was confused.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: And I didn't dream about him, probably like once a month.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: They were like horrible, yeah, terror, wake up the middle night, sweating,
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: just like alive, and then he's dying again, but I
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: can't stop him.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: He just keeps dying. And every time he's just dying
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: and dying dying, I'm just.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: Like And then it's as I started to get better,
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: I started to have better dreams about him. I remember,
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: I don't know what we were doing, but we were
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: hanging out something fun, and it was like what I
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: felt the closest version of a lucid dream I ever had.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: But it was like he like gives me a hug,
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: and I'm like about to wake up and I'm really
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: trying not to wake up, and then I like wake up,
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: and for like a split second, I felt like I
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: felt him again, and I was like, what's the best
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: felt his bigger, chunky fingers.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: I felt that.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: Holic is that he always had and I was like wow,
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: and that just like again, not pushing away the desires
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: to connect with him, always wanting to feel him. You know,
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: another thing someone can do. Sorry, another idea I just
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: thought of. My mom made my dad record happy birthdays
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: for all the boys, so smart, sent him to all
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: of it, is so smart, and sent them to us
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: on our next birthday.
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: Oh my god. If I had that of my mom, yeah, yeah,
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: and it's like, that's so sweet.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: My Mom's amazing. Y.
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: But that progression of dreams you described is interesting because
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: I think it's important to acknowledge that it takes a
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: while for the brain to understand and assimilate the fact
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: of someone's death. You know, it's really hard. So a
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: lot of those dreams, you're just like reckoning with the
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: death over and over and it's horrific, and it's your
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: brain is trying to make sense of it. How is
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: he not here? This person you've known your entire life
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: since the moment you took your first breath, That person
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: you know, and it's just it happen overnight that we
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: recognize and understand that they're gone. It takes a long
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: time to really get there, years sometimes for some people.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: And then when you do, you begin to come around
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: to a new level of acceptance, not that it's okay
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: that they're gone, but just acceptance that they are gone,
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: that they're not physically here. But that's also the cool
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: window where you begin to open up to this different
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: relationship with them. You can't go for anyone listening who's
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: you know, just gone through a loss. It's really hard.
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: It takes time to get to the place where you
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: have this more spiritual relationship with them. In the beginning,
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: you just feel sometimes panicked, sometimes angry, sometimes just horrified
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: or sad that they're not here and you can't think about,
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: you know, the nice relationship you're going to have at
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: some point like I have with my mom where I
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: talk to her and wear her earrings and throw the
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: Saint Patrick's Day party like that. Took me a long
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: time to get there. There was a lot of grappling
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: with the reality of her, of her death and her
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: absence of my life. That took time.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: You know, I just had a death in the family,
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: my cousin, and my cousin lost her husband who was
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: for twenty years, three kids, teenagers from ten to sixteen,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Like horrible, Like I love this family so much there
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: in my family, And like, obviously I'm talking about a
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: lot of like slower passings where you have maybe a
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: little bit of time. How is the experience of a
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: sudden passing, Yeah, where you don't get any real closure.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really hard.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: And how does one navigate that experience differently or better?
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: That's a great question. I think it takes longer to
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: get to some of the places that you know that
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: Ben and I have been talking about. You know, there's
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: a lot more to kind of move through. There's just
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: the shock of it. There's the trying to understand how
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: it happened, why it happened. There's so much stuff that happens,
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: and so it takes longer to kind of get to
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: the place where you're maybe just feeling subtled enough to
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: be in the sadness and the grief and the missing,
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: you know, because you're you're dealing with so many things
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: in the beginning can take years for some people. I
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: work with a lot of people who are busy parents
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: who've maybe lost a partner and they've just they've got
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: to get those kids stabilized. They've got to get their
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: work situation stabilized, the household, you know, all the you
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: know admin stuff that comes with it, and so sometimes
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: it's three years before they are able to actually just
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: sit and cry and be like, I cannot believe I
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: lost my husband and I miss him so much and
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: if he were just here, you know. So that's the
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: kind of the difference with a sudden death because in
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: a in one where we're a little bit more prepared,
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: we can think about it, we can do these amazing
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: things like make recordings, we can say goodbyes, we can
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: tidy up some of the life admin that's coming, we
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: can come to terms with it a little bit. And
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: so we have that, you know, that opportunity before someone dies,
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: when we know it's happening.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is the closure process? Is it just longer? This
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: is my guy brain who is like, what are the
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: things you do? How can I help? What are the
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: you know, all those things? Is is it just a
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: longer process?
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: It is? But I mean closure, Like what define closure?
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: What do you want closure to mean? You know?
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Closure is hard.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: It's like when you look for a closure, it's probably
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: not going to come yeah, the way you expected to
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: show up.
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: I think acceptance inclosure are two different things. There's an
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: acceptance acceptance that it's happened. A lot of people, especially
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: with a sudden death like that, they just there's maybe
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: a year or two of just resisting that this has happened.
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: I don't want my life to be like this. This
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: is not what it was supposed to be, Like he
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: was supposed to be here, their dad was supposed to
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: be here. I don't want it to look like this.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: I don't want to be a widow at forty or
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: whatever it is, you know, and just there's this resistance
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: to that. And so acceptance means being like just letting
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: letting go and being like, okay, shit, this is my
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: life now, this is this person is gone, and this
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: is how it's changed everything, and now I'm going to
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: move forward from here. That's acceptance. Doesn't make it okay
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: that he's gone, yeah, But it's more of getting to
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: a point where you're like, Okay, this is what I'm
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: working with, this is where I'm going.
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: And I think it's important to like there's no timetable grief,
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: yeah now, or then.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Have to do it.
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: Oh, but people love to put a timetable on grief.
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: You know, people, it's funny. We get a lot of
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: messages from the outside about how long we get to grieve,
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: what it should look like. Do you get those messages
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: from people not asking because they just want you to
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: be better, so they're not going to ask about it,
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: or they assume you should be better. You get those
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: messages with just like what bereavement leave looks like in
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: this country, you get what two days for it has
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: to be a certain person that you've lost. You get
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: those messages when people are like, you're feeling better, six months,
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: you're good now.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: You must be better now.
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you're good. It's been six months, yeah, three months?
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Can you talk a bit about.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, thank you for asking. I actually forgot about it.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: I'm so, I'm so in this is I'm so I'm
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: enjoying like this is.
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: So.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: Around the two year mark, I was still feeling a
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: little bit disconnected from reality. I was feeling more like myself,
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: but still in grief and struggling internally with my own
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: cancer and my dad's death.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: Not in a bad way, but just in a way
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: that felt a little heavy. Still. While I was.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: Well my dad was dying. I was scrolling on LinkedIn
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: and I saw a guy post about Experience camps. You
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: heard of this, Yeah, and he goes. When I was twelve,
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: I lost my dad. Experience camps as a place where
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: people who have lost someone they love, their kids, they
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: go to camp and you can be a counselor.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I was like, oh my God.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: Signed up. And as it was approaching, I was like,
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: I'm not doing this. There's no way I can be here.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: I'm not.
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: And with the help of some people, I and my therapist,
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: I went and did it. And it was the most
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: profound experience for my healing, not only for my dad's
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: death but for my own cancer. And Yeah, I have
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: never felt so seen and heard in my loss. But
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: I also felt like I had a better understanding of
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: my grief from hearing people from sharing it. The biggest
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: takeaway I had was that it wasn't just that my
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: dad died, it was that I was cancer. I cancer,
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: and I was like trying to tell people the story
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: of my dad's experience of losing my dad, but it
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: always felt incomplete and not true to me. So I
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: went to grief camp and I shared the full thing.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: And these kids were so inspiring, These these five year
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: olds I know who lost their parent, and they remember
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: the mom's screaming, they remember finding the sister in the pool,
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: they remember the hard part. And then somehow an eight
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: year old says, but you know what, I still talk
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: to my dad. He's still with me, and I like,
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: I like when he's here, and my mom reminds me
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: of all of the good times, and we still look
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: at pictures and then they go and play and we
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: get to just bring joy to them. And that was
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: I'm going back in July, like, I'm going to.
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: Go back awesome because I I.
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: Don't know, it changed me and I really want other
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: people to feel that. And I have a friend that
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: I met a couple of weeks ago who lost his
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: dad about a year after mine.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Now he's going to come awesome, So he's a great dude.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Was like, that to me, is conscious grieving?
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah it is?
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: It really so scary for me. I was, I am.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: I love to try, I'm curious, but that was something
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: that I was resisting.
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's how I got into this work, you know,
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: just being around other people who are grieving or feeling
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: like I had something at all to contribute to it.
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: It healed me. I was healing. I'm so glad you're
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: doing that. Yeah, that's really cool. You are definitely consciously grieving.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think i've and I think I'm going
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: to the rest of my life.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: How have you seen grief show up in families? Right? Like, Yeah,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: I read about it.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: I was like, WHOA, that makes sense because everyone has
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: their own experience with their parent or the loved one
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: that lost, and it's like, it can be a little.
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: Bit, it can definitely get a little sticky in there.
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: I always think about like a table with multiple legs
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: around it, each leg representing one of the family members,
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: and you remove a leg, like your father dies, everybody
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: else has to move around into new roles with each other,
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: new relationships with each other, new dynamics. No one is
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: grieving the same way. Somebody over here is posting a
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: bunch on Instagram about it. Somebody over here wants to
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: be really private about it. Somebody over here like didn't
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: show up in certain ways at the end, and everyone's
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: them like, you know, somebody wants to talk about it
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: when no one else wants to talk about it. It's
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: it's hard. It's really hard. It can definitely be very challenging.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: That was so challenging.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what advice would you give to someone who recently
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: lost someone and they're they're in this infancy stages of
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: that process.
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: Number one, be gentle with yourself, Like I think I
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: see people be really hard on themselves when they're grieving,
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: Like it's scary and we're really vulnerable. You said it
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: yourself earlier that you'd never people told you what grief
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: would be like. You don't know what grief is like
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: until you're in it, and it's a whole new experience.
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: And so often people are not recognizing themselves as they
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: know themselves to be, and so they can be hard
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: on themselves. So be really gentle with yourself, ask for support,
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: find people who can sit show up and sit with you,
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: and think about your own grief, not what everybody else
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: says your grief should look like or will look like,
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: or how long it's supposed to last. What is your
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: grief like? And how can you open up space in
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: your life to be with it. Are there complicated things
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: you need to move through? You need to talk out
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: some guilt or some regret or complicated relationship. How can
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: you honor your person, how can you start to find
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: your way towards them in a way. One of the
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: big things, last thing I'll really want to say, is
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: that what you and I are talking about, where you
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: are three years out, there's a lot of beauty to
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: be found in it. And I think that's a misconception
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: about grief and loss, is that it's all hard and
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: terrible and scary. I would take my parents back in
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: a second, but I also am very aware of how
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: their deaths and the grief has made me a better person,
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: better than I ever would have been more compassionate, wiser,
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: and more open, more present to my life, you know, more,
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: you know, just in the world as a human in
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: a way that I don't know I would have achieved otherwise.
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: Not just beauty in that, you know.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: I agree.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: I think I feel like I'm there now, right. It's
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: not so much pain, it's actually more joy and.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: I never thought I would get here.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: You're right, there is some beauty, yeah, membring and having it.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: Like you said about the spark inside of you. Yeah,
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: I love this conversation.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: It's like so hard feeling and really meaningful.
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: I'm so glad you guys are talking about this. I mean,
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: this is the This is the important piece of people
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: who are out there going through it. When they hear
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: conversations like this, it makes them feel so much less alone,
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: so much you know, support that they can get through
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: this and.
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: That if you if you're listening to this podcast and
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: you know someone in the last three to five years
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: that maybe experienced grief, just like send this to them.
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: Be like this guy on this podcast lost his dad
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: and they wrought and I.
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: Think made me think of you.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, made me think of you. It's such an easy
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: way to just send them a hug.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: Total.
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: It means so much here.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to out, yeah, yeah, you said this
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: one conscious grieving transfervered to approach to healing from loss. It's
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: probably like that.
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: That's the newest one. That's the really you know, it
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: came out last year. It came out last year. If
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: I think if I that was the book where if
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: I could write a book, if I could write and
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: give all of my advice to anybody, that would be
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: the one.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: Beautiful Okay, thanks question, Thank you guys. Hey, thanks for listening.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: We appreciate you.
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: If you enjoyed this episode and us embarrassing ourselves and
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: talking about our feelings.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: You are definitely going to like everything else.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: Follow on on Instagram at free therapy and we'll see
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: you next time.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: I noticed something happened after my dad died, and I'm curious.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: If you've seen this in your practice.
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: So I'm a male obviously, and my dad died and
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: I'm the oldest. And when it happened, my friend started
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: the support and you know, the funeral was big, and
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: you know, and after like the three or four month mark,
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: when I started to just go out again, a lot
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: of girls, uh, became quite attracted. Ones that maybe I
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: had like tried to date years before were suddenly available,
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: ones that I was like you okay, And it was
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: like about a six to nine months of a lot
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: of female attention.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Is that a thing? You see?
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: It is a thing. Women love a craving guy. They
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: just do. I don't know why. I don't have a
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: good answer for why. I just know that it's true
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: and I see it all the time. They're called the
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: casserole bringers. You know, they just start showing it's true.
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: They just start showing up, and you know, I would
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: guess that it's because you know you're vulnerable and you're
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: really feeling some feelings, and women like that, you know,
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: they like to they like to know, they know for
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: sure that you've got some big feelings going on.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: We did Men on the Street content. We go and
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: interview women and we would ask them, what's the one
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: thing you wish that men would work on in therapy?
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: Number one answer, probably ninety percent of the answer was
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: I wish they would just learn how to express their emotions.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: Do their feelings, share their emotions, and to this point,
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: when someone is grieving, they are in their emotions. They
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: are probably is the most attractive thing to women.
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: I mean, this was like the heated rivalry phenomenon right
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: Like it was you guys who were like being emotional
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: and having feelings and women just ate it up.