Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Important Tools for Nervous System Management with Patricia Gipple Part 2 | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 6

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Important Tools for Nervous System Management with Patricia Gipple Part 2 | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 6 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Motherhood Uncut Podcast.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Deb Rubin and I, Kate Kripke, started this podcast so that we could bring to the table all things that no one wants to talk about in Motherhood.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Together, both psychotherapists and mothers of teenage daughters, we spent a lot of time, just the two of us, talking about all the stuff that actually shows up behind the scenes in motherhood.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: And we decided it was time that we all joined this conversation together.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: So if you are a mom feeling alone, if you're a mom feeling like you could use more information, if you're a mom looking to laugh about the things that are so ridiculous about this job, and quite frankly, if you're a mom needing to cry about the things that are more vulnerable and tenuous and heartbreaking, we've got you.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Pull up a chair, put in your earbuds, grab a cup of coffee, grab a glass of wine, whatever you need.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Sit down and mother with us.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Our conversations are gonna be filled with laughter, probably some tears, hopefully some eye-opening insights in between our conversations and the folks that we interview to help us learn a little bit more and grow a little bit more together.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna create a system of mothering that helps us all feel a little bit less alone.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being here.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Let us know what you think.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: We've got you.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Come mother with us.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Hey listeners.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: This week I bring you part two of my incredible conversation with Patricia Gipple.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: I hope that you listen up in this episode in a way that allows you to walk away with some really practical and tangible tools for managing your nervous system, meeting yourself where you are, and doing the same with your kids.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: I found this incredibly useful to me, and I hope for you the same.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Enjoy.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: As many of you know by now, I have a huge passion for self-discovery and growth.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I just adore helping people find their way back to their intuition and increasing their confidence, especially when it comes to connection.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm learning and relearning all the time that when we expand our connection with ourselves, we deeply learn how to connect with our children.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, my groups, the Mother Daughter Journey, that is what they're all about.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're learning how to stay steady and how to help out help our girls feel steady when they are going through such a turbulent transition of adolescence.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be launching a bunch of new stuff in the fall.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're not on my newsletter yet, you can do so at motherdaughterjourney.co.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Sign up there and you'll stay informed and just know what's going on in my world.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot wait to work with you.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And cheers to being a mom, being human, being messy.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Have a great summer.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Hey listeners, it's Kate.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: So for our listeners, I am offering up a 30-minute free call.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Zoom is ideal, so I can see your beautiful faces, so that I can chat with you about what you might need to access the kind of emotional and mental well-being that you are wanting in motherhood, both for yourself, right?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: So you can feel better and also for your kiddos, of course, because what we know is that when we are healthy, we mother better.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: So find a link in the show notes.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Come hang with me for a little bit, and let's figure out what you might need to access that kind of life that you are really wanting.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: I really hope to see you.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: And there's nothing to lose.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Pop on a call with me.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'll see you there.
• 3:30
  unknown: Here we are.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Patricia, we are jumping in today to part two of this really amazing conversation we had about the nervous system and stress management.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: But today we're gonna like get in there and you're gonna talk with us about how states, nervous systems, states create stories.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Did I say that right?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_06: You did, yeah.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Will you tell us more about what that means?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and so that that phrase that you just repeated, states create stories, is one of the common phrases that we hear um in polyvagal theory.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_06: So I believe that those words came exactly from Deb Dana, who is the, I think I recommended her to you.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_06: You did.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_06: As um, you know, some of the polyvagal theory books out there can be really dense and really science-y and hard to do the work to understand.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_06: Deb Dana's language is a little bit softer and it's geared more towards um, you know, the therapist-client relationship.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_06: Um, so she has this new book called Anchored, um, Befriending Your Nervous System.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_06: Great, great book.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_06: Something along those titles.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_06: I like the title.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, isn't it great?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_06: And so that language they create stories, I believe comes from either her or Stephen Porgis, um, who's also he's the real media in polygamo theory.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_06: So Deb Dana uh created this um uh autonomic ladder, this thing that you're gonna share.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_06: And it and it goes through the three basic states, the three basic parts of our nervous system.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_06: And what is so brilliant about this, and why I was so excited to share it with you so you could share it with as many people, is that we get so confused about why we are the way we are.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_06: Um and I think we touched on it briefly in part one, how we get a little bit ahead of ourselves and we try to solve it in our head, or we think, why, you know, why am I feeling this way?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_06: And we try to push it.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and our feelings come from the state of the nervous system that we're in.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_06: And and I'm touching the three different parts of the nervous system in my own body.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_06: And when we're in these different states, they only offer us certain choices.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_06: There are only certain feelings available.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_06: And so when we said what we said last week too, it's like mood follows action.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_06: We tend to want to try to change our behavior by changing our thinking, but the behavior starts with the feeling in the body, and the feeling comes from the state of our nervous system.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, intervening variable for how it is you feel right now and I feel right now is where are we in our nervous system?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_06: And are we starting to, you know, in this conversation get to a place where it feels safer and safer, where we start to get more into a co-regulated place where we can start to share and have a really great conversation.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_06: If that isn't happening in our communication, it's because it's where we are individually and collectively in our nervous system.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_06: So we understand that we have to change the state to change the story in that order.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's so good.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have I have two questions, but the first question I'm gonna ask, or the request I'm gonna ask, is if you could just define for us again this state, this term vasal, vague, polyvagal theory.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: Can you just like that is a mouthful for a lot of people?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: What are we actually talking about when we talk about polyvagal theory?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_06: We're basically talking that um most of the information, how our brain and body collect information is mostly through the body.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_06: And so polyvagal theory says if we start with understanding the body and the different nervous system states, we can begin to understand why we're thinking the way we're thinking and why we're doing what we're doing.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_06: So polyvagal theory is just a very somatic approach to understanding who we are and how we feel about who we are and how we feel about the world changes in different states and throughout the day.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_06: Because, you know, in this ladder that we're gonna show is like we we go through these different um physiological states up and down that ladder throughout the day.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_06: And and our job is to map ourselves to understand when did I stop start feeling uncomfortable with you in this conversation if it happened, and be able to track that, or when did I start to feel really close with you in this conversation when that happened, and understand that that's happening first and foremost in our body.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_06: And then the feeling um turns into a thought that the brain grabs a hold of, and then we turn that into a behavior.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want me to share this?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm gonna say I have my other question, but I'm gonna save it till after.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's gonna be a better question for later on.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I am gonna share my screen.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, do you see it?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: I see it.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, talk us through.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, so I want to just acknowledge again, this is Deb Dana's um uh graph, and she generously shares it with everyone, encourages us to share it with everyone.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_06: So this is um so powerful when I show this to clients and I ask them to tell me where they are, they start to identify really quickly just with the um stick figure spaces of like, oh, that's where I am.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_06: And it is so common for people who are stuck in what is called a dorsal vagal state, the bottom of that ladder.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_06: They are really depressed and everything feels really impossible.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_06: When they see that, they'll often get fairly emotional because they'll feel seen and and you know, they'll understand who what they've been dealing with, what they've been challenged by for a good part of their recent life.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_06: So it's that that is a very common experience I get when people see that, and they feel validated and equally sad by the fact that they feel that sad.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_06: There's something about seeing it that really seems to ring true for a lot of people.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: This right here, I think, is a very common experience of new moms.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: 100% right trapped, immobilized, shut down, collapse.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like not only does this stage of this person down here look so exhausted, right, and so overwhelmed.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually think I've been talking about this a lot lately, Patricia.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think there are these stages in motherhood where we're where we feel this familiar feeling of dorsal bagel, right?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Early motherhood, when we're so, it's like the ground has been pulled out from underneath us as we life as we know it has changed so much.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then when our babies become toddlers, right, and they are demand a whole different kind of parenting.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then oftentimes when our toddlers go to school for the first time and we have all of this space and we don't know what to do with it, or when our kids become adolescents, or when our kids then go to college, right?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: These periods of time in motherhood where we can just these words like I feel them in my body, trapped, immobilized, shut down, collapse.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: We all know what that feels like, right?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_06: And that's why polyvagal theory to me is so powerful is that we're not talking about anything that we don't already know and have experienced.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_06: But what we are doing is we're having shared language around it.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_06: So that we can then, and what that shared language does is just deepen an individual's understanding of themselves when they know, oh my God, I'm sliding into dorsal vagal.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_06: I'm starting to feel more trapped, more immobilized, more shut down, collapsed.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_06: A common word that I hear that's not up there is like it's impossible, it's helpless, it never is gonna get better.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm tired of hoping that it will get better.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_06: Um, I'm the only one that it won't work for.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, all of those kind of languages are the only choices that become available to us when we're in dorsal vagal.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_06: So when we say states create the stories.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_06: So if I ask someone who's stuck in dorsal vagal, tell me the story that's living inside of you, they're gonna give me themes around being trapped, immobilized, shut down, collapsed, hopeless, dark.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_06: Um, you know, of course, all of these states, they are they're gradations of them.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_06: So when I add hints and flavors of them, or in dorsal vagal, this is when it is the most serious in terms of suicidal ideation or an actual attempting suicide.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_06: Because as dorsal vagal, as that uh bias gets stronger in our nervous system, we simultaneously isolate more from other people.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_06: And that just exaggerates that bias even more.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_06: And so when we're not connecting with other people and we're having, you know, really dark thoughts, they become much more influential in our system, and we start to lose our choices even more.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: I have two clarifying questions for you.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: The first is well, one is just a um reflection, a question.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: I had a I was working with I have a client in California, and today she was talking about how she is um a writer, and as we know, there's this big writing strike, and she has a young, young child, and she was talking about how she woke up today with this feeling of I literally cannot get through another day.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: The idea of making breakfast and lunch for my child is like too much to bear.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's like an example of what you're talking about.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Is that accurate?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_06: It is.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_06: And first, let me just say to your client, I've been there, I know there.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, that that is a rough place.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_06: And this is where understanding yourself from a psychodynamic point of view can really help you.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_06: You know eventually when you learn this, that that's not who she is, right?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_06: That's where her nervous system is.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_06: And so when she can safely learn to swaddle her nervous system in that very real dorsal vagal state, bring safety to it and start to, you know, what dorsal vagal does is it immobilizes us.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_06: So in the most extreme life-threatening situation, our body will freeze.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_06: We don't have to tell it to.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_06: So that's a good thing in a survival situation.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_06: But in the situation that you're talking about with your client, what we want to do is start to bring some mobilization, bring, help her move up the ladder into sympathetic and understand what her resources are.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_06: So typically in dorsal vagal, resources need to be really gentle, like rocking or singing, or with my clients who are really, really depressed and can't even get out of bed.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_06: It's okay, flip open Netflix and what movie will make you laugh?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_06: What movie will make you feel good?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_06: Uh taking a bath.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_06: So you can see dorsovagal needs a very gentle, kind step towards mobilization.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_06: So sometimes chewing crunchy things or smelling something beautiful, um, you know, having soft pillows that you can just cuddle with.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_06: I had a client come to um session the other day.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_06: We've been working a lot on this, and she came in in her pajamas and her in her cuddliest little blanket because there was just one thing after another.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_06: She was really down in the dump.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_06: So she was practicing swaddling herself in dorsal bagel, um, but being gentle with it.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing I want to just say, and then I'm gonna share.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: We should I realize that while we're talking, we might as well record our faces rather than the latter.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'll come back to the latter.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I also think you're doing a really beautiful job.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: I love how this separates fight, flight from freeze.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right, because they're such different mechanisms in our nervous system.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: And you really do this in a way, or this is done in a way, and they're talking about in a way that really helps us understand that fight, flight, and freeze are all nervous system responses to threat, but they're actually very different, right?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_06: Exactly.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_06: And so, what's so important for us to know about ourselves is when we are injured in our nervous system, you know, like if we broke our femur, we wouldn't be upset with ourselves that we can't climb a mountain.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_06: But when we're injured in our nervous system, it can only do certain things.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_06: So we have to be really gentle with it and teach it that you can feel hopeless.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_06: Your client can feel like she can't get out of bed and she can find a baby step.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_06: So, but it's it's about finding our nervous system, does not like big steps, it doesn't like to be forced, it likes something really titrated to you.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_06: And you need to know, oh, this is when I need to drink my tea, this is when I need to call that friend, this is when I need to lay down on the grass.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_06: So you need to know what that gentle step is.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_06: And the approach is so kind, Kate.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_06: It's so compassionate, and it and it lends so beautifully to a meditation practice because that's what we learn too, is you know, how to just feel ourselves in these different states and and not judge it.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_06: You know, it's like, oh, I just shifted because I was afraid something made me defensive, not because I'm a bad person or I'm lazy, but I'm afraid and I need to understand what that trigger was.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_06: And then to the feeling of safety.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's so it's so amazing.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna pull this back up.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, can you really important thing that I want to say about dorsal vagal?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, you can see it in the face.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, it's referred to you know, that flat face where there is no part of the face that's animated.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_06: Voice, the porosity, the sound in somebody's voice and dorsal vagal, it's down, it's flat.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_06: You know it.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_06: Your partner comes home from work and you're like, Hey sweetie, how are you?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_06: And they're like, uh, like they're telling you, we're always telling each other where we are in our nervous system with the look on our face and the sound in our voice.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_06: And a dorsal vagal, uh traditional dorsal vagal face and sound is just very flat.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_06: It's very like, don't even look at me.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_06: Don't even when I'm in dorsal vagal, I am not going out shopping, you know.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_06: I'm not to the grocery store.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_06: I'm like hiding in my bed, like, oh my god, like what do I need to do to and so we'll see it right away.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_06: Um, because we are our face and our voice is so designed to get that connection, that biological connection with another person.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_06: So you can see when somebody's in dorsal vagal and they're not looking, if they do have to go grocery shopping, they're not looking at other people.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_06: And then they're noticing other people aren't looking at them because they're not getting the cue of safety from other people, but that just makes their own system even more biased of like, oh, I am terrible or nobody likes me, and you know, so it it really feeds into this loop.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_06: And so again, if we can realize I'm in a part of my nervous system, I need to tend to this now to start to shift it.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_06: It it keeps us away from the story that it's never gonna work.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_06: This time I'm not getting out of my depression.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_06: This time I'm not gonna be able to do it.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm hearing you say that in Dorsal Vagel, the tending to our nervous systems is soft and subtle and gentle and compassionate.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_06: Think of the mother when she's in a very regulated state and her child is, you know, having a hard time and she just knows exactly what to do, say, and do.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_06: Like that's the way we want to be with ourselves when we're in dorsal vagal.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_06: We want to really be the mother and tend to that dysregulation in the kindest, most gentlest way.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_06: It will respond really quickly.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_06: As opposed to in our culture, a lot of the language around dorsal vagal is you're lazy, you're stupid, you can't stick with it.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_06: And this is these are the stories that people come in and tell me who they are.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_06: It's like, wait a minute, let's get you regulated first.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_06: And then let's see what stories you have to say about who you are and what the world is.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_06: Amazing.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_06: All right, take take us through sympathetic.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_06: So sympathetic.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_06: So the other thing I want to say that the the ladder is also a representation of your spine.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_06: So dorsal vagal, we're talking about your belly button and below that general area in your body, right around your belly button and below.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_06: Um, so and that's the oldest part of our nervous system.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_06: Then as we evolved, the sympathetic part of the nervous system developed, and as dorsal vagal brings immobilization in.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_06: Sympathetic brings mobilization in.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_06: It's how we're moving.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_06: When we're moving, when we're talking, the sympathetic part of our nervous system is engaged.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_06: In danger, in perceived, when that body and that mind perceive danger, when the sympathetic nervous system is engaged, it gives us two choices to either fight that thing that we're afraid of or to flee that thing that we're afraid of.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_06: And you see this in the mom who literally the eyes are a little bit more bugged, the face is a little bit more charged up, the eyebrows are a little bit more engaged, you'll notice pupils, and just that stance of like, I don't know how to stop.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_06: How do you stop?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_06: I don't know how to stop.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_06: Like what you and I'm either fighting from it all the time or fleeing from it all the time.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_06: You know, it's it's the mom who can't take the seat in the chair and just really enjoy the cup of coffee or the tea without thinking about what's for lunch, what's for dinner, what like it the nervous system gets really biased to always be moving and it perceives it begins to perceive uh immobilization as danger.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_06: Like something's wrong.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_06: I it it's quiet, it's still yeah, yeah, it's really interesting.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm curious if this feels true for you.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: What what's coming up for me is that depression is a very dorsal vagal state, where anxiety is a very sympathetic state.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_06: Exactly.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_06: And so what we want in the in someone who has a biased and sympathetic is we want to begin to make dorsal vagal safe for them, where they can slow down enough to process what is trying to be processed, but can never be processed because they're always on the go in some way.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_06: They're always running away or they're always running towards it.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, what do you tell your clients, Patricia?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because this is interesting, right?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, so what I hear you saying is that if someone is in a sympathetic state, what needs to happen is they need to be open to and allow for dorsal vagal.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: But the idea of feeling trapped, immobilized, shut down, and collapsed is so scary that they keep moving.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: They don't want to slow down.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: What do you tell folks who are having that experience?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_06: Great question.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_06: And again, it's a little step.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_06: This is where so much of the work is helping the person identify what are their resources, what is a safe amount for them to be still.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_06: So I have clients who cannot be still.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_06: It brings up so much anxiety.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_06: So instead, we stand and we shift the weight from the left foot to the right foot, and we just bring in just a little bit of movement and see if they can do that for a minute and what that feels like.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_06: And typically, if I'm with them and we're talking through it and they're able to do it, there's this feeling of like, oh, I can do this.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_06: So we're stretching the nervous system past the point where the trigger became so intense before that they just had to do what the bias in the nervous system was, which was to, you know, fight or flee it.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_06: So it's it's a slow process and it really takes, you know, those chopstick moments where you're just really slowing it down and understanding you're learning something.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_06: And when we learn different things in our nervous system, it doesn't feel right.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_06: It feels really unnatural.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_06: And that's actually really important to be able to track that because that's the shifting and the shape, the neuroplasticity changing.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_06: We're we're building our capacity because what we're all doing is we're picking up where we left off before.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_06: You know, what we didn't get through as kids is what we're cleaning up as adults.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_06: And then when we have the language to understand the physiological shifts, because when you memorize, I have my clients memorize this ladder so that they can come in and we start a session off and they'll tell me right away where they are on the ladder.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_06: And then they'll tell me where other people in their life are on the ladder.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_06: And so we stop really fighting about the behavior, and we start to understand more what the root causes, which are feelings that aren't getting mobilized, that aren't getting shared.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, so good.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_06: Isn't it just so soothing?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_06: And I again I just use the word kind.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_06: I think it is such a kind way to be with ourselves when we're confused or when we don't like the way we are.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_06: It just is because it's factual.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_06: It's like it's your nervous system and it's gonna do what it needs to do without you telling it.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think, yes, I think the other thing that it's so there's so much purposefulness to what you're describing.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: And um I'm gonna show this again because I wanna, when I'm looking at this, right, when I look at this ladder, I recognize that I am actually probably moving 12 times a day between all these states.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you talked about how you can have, you know, there can be severe states that we might get stuck in for long periods of time, but for for most of us, we're moving up and down this ladder all the time.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what I hear when I hear you talk about it, it's like it, it, it allows it.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just really loving the word allow for myself these days.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: It allows for our nervous system to do what they are going to do and then invites us to tend to or take action in a new way so that the nervous system state doesn't actually lock in and create this story that then we're then it becomes this cycle, right?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: In either direction.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense what I'm just saying, Patricia?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, it absolutely does, and it's it's exactly right.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_06: And so we call that mapping, mapping ourselves on the ladder.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_06: And then having this internal dialogue of um with ourselves, you know, I'm gonna go back to the grocery store anal or uh analogy, yeah, shopping, and all of a sudden you see somebody that you don't want to see, you might realize, oh, I've shifted into my sympathetic nervous system because now my shopping cart is on two wheels because I'm turning the corner so goddamn fast because I don't want to see that person.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_06: You know, you're like in fight or flee.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_06: Um, so when you can have that conversation with yourself of like, oh, I'm feeling, you know, my heart's pounding because of this person, or you know, I'm I'm thinking of this person and I'm feeling really sad.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, my body is responding to that.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_06: I'm sliding down the ladder, I'm in dorsal vagal.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_06: So that that awareness and that mapping is so important in understanding who we are and how our body works and how it's always signaling to us yes, no, and maybe.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: I um I don't know if you would agree with this, so we can certainly talk about it, if not, but I am often uh reminding folks, myself included, that I only have control over two things, right?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: My own thoughts and my own actions, you know, meaning a thought pops up and I get to choose what to do with that thought and actions.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: We can't control our feelings, and I think that's what I'm hearing you say.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: Our body reacts the way it's gonna react.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: So when we notice that, we can then think what thought or action is gonna help me settle this thing that's happening.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_06: And not second guess ourselves.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_06: We spend so much of our energy second guessing or not wanting it to be what it is, but it is what it is because the system is so wise and intelligent, it it knows what it needs to go through to find homeostasis.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_06: Because we don't trust our bodies as deeply as we as we can, we're trying to always solve it in our head, and it never gets finished in our head, it gets finished in our body, and then our head can then we can talk about it.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_06: So, you know, it's not about not talking about anything, but it's understanding before we talk about it, we have to feel it.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_06: We have to feel all the flavors of it and all the ways that it shifts and have that ability to let ourselves go wild in that, or like have every feeling that's there.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_06: Nobody needs to leave the room, everyone gets to be there, as in all the feelings.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, talk us through Ventral Vagel because I just know that I want to be this person in this ladder.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be her.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be up here smiling and in balance.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_06: So well, let me say this to you since I know you, Kate, is like I see you in ventral vagal when you have that microphone and you have moms together, you know.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_06: Would you say that that that's you, that you feel connected, gay, engaged, safe, and social?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: I would actually say that I spend most of my time in ventral veil these days, that I really have a very committed practice, which if anyone didn't watch part one before they watched part two, I will say again, in many ways came from working with you and learning from you and having you as a mentor.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I think between waking up in the morning and starting my day with some sort of inspirational reading, to sitting and doing my meditation practice, to getting myself outside in nature every morning, those things are all creating that ventral vagal experience.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: I then come home and I bring that forward to my girls when I'm helping them get out the door.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: They don't need me much anymore because they're teenagers, but I'm gently there.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then that allows me to show up with the microphone or whatever it is from that place.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: So by all means, I think I'm moving, as I said earlier.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: I can feel dorsal vagal and sympathetic, but I'm pretty quick now to be able to tend to those parts of my nervous system.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like I look at this ladder and I and it's like coming, it's that sense.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know it's what you're talking about, it's that sense of coming home, that sense of safety, that sense of sort of, yeah, I can breathe in that ventral vagal state.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_06: And so for me, what um so ventral vagal is the most modern, the most recent part of the nervous system that evolved.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_06: And um, the interesting thing about ventral vagal is as it evolved, it um uh it it it the vagus nerve wraps around our heart.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_06: Um and so a lot of the the feelings that we feel in our heart, the love and everything, it it comes with this feeling safe and connected.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_06: And so we have evolved over a period of time.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_06: I've heard you say this a number of times, um, but we say it in polyvagal as well, to be, you know, biologically evolved to need this type of connection.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_06: And what's important to know is that we can survive without ventral vagal, but we'll be surviving with the defensive parts of our nervous systems turned on.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: But we oh my gosh, I actually need you to say that again because that is a really profound statement.
• 34:11
  unknown: Yes.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: Will you say that again?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_06: We can survive.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_06: We can survive in sympathetic and dorsal vagal, but it will be activating.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_06: We will be surviving with the defensive parts of our nervous system turned on, and what we know is years and years like that, that bias gets stronger and stronger and stronger, and so we only thrive when we are in ventral vagal.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's so beautiful!
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_06: Gets turned on through your vagus nerve.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_06: So when there is poor vagal tone, we don't have access to ventral vagal.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the vagus nerve for people who are unfamiliar runs from you tell everyone what the vagus nerve is.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_06: The middle of the neck, it runs down, and so this little evolution when ventral vagal was developed, the vagus nerve then took a little jaunt to the right and it wraps around our heart.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_06: And so it really that part of our nervous system really helps us to feel literally heartful and connected and creative, and that comes out.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_06: The interesting part of uh ventral vagal is that it's the vagus nerve is myelinated, there's a little fatty tissue around that part of the vagus nerve, and that affects the tone of our voice.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_06: So when somebody tends to be in ventrovagal, you'll feel and hear more porosity in their voice.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_06: And so those are cues of safety that are coming out through the voice of like, I'm engaged, I'm excited, this is interesting.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_06: And so a good speaker, you'll also hear naturally uh, you know, their voice goes up and down because you can you can feel their excitement, you can feel their heart is into it.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_06: So um ventral vagal needs to be really activated in most people right now because of the way that we've been isolated and we've been shut down and we're we're growing more used to it, which is why I'm so happy with the work that you're doing, is you're creating these ventral vagal places.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_06: And once ventral vagal gets turned on in our nervous system, our nervous system wants more of it.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_06: So it starts to actively seek out more ways to get connection with people, as opposed to when it's not turned on, it starts to bias everything as another reason to separate and to go away because it it literally can't see the opportunity because the story or the state is creating the story of it's not there.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_06: There's nobody to look at, there's nobody to connect to.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_06: I've had this experience.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, sorry, go ahead.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_06: No, but what I was gonna say is when you I'm keep thinking of your uh talk, is like you said something that was such a cue of safety to people.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_06: And I can't remember what it was.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_06: It had it for a second, but it was something like there are no rules, there are no expectations, just speak from your heart, whatever is there.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_06: Those are such ventral vagal words that even though I knew I wasn't gonna speak, I felt like I wanted to speak because the invitation was so pure, it was so real that it was like, oh, that's what I need to open up.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_06: That's safety.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_06: And we can only give those cues of safety when we feel them ourselves.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, we want to connect, yeah.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: So amazing.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I've been um, as you know, really leaning towards group coaching work, um, you know, small-ish groups of mothers coming together to learn much of this stuff and also learn how to change thinking and all of many things.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I just got I just completed a 12-week group course with small six women, so it was very small.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: And each one of those women, when I first were prior clients, so I'd known them before, and each one of those women when I kind of encouraged this idea, we're like, oh no, no, I don't like groups.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think I feel like I need the one-on-one.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, and somehow I encouraged them.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the group last week, Friday, they were all like mind-blown by how that container of safety, I mean, connected, engaged, safe and social are the words you have here in the ventral vagal ladder.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: That feeling is so profound.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: It opens up something in us to your point where we just want more of it.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: But the are we can keep ourselves from that.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what I hear you saying is, oh, if we're in a ventral vagal state, we want more of that.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: But when we're in a sympathetic or a dorsal vagal state, the idea of that feels somehow feels threatening.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: Is that right?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_06: Absolutely.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_06: Absolutely.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_06: It's actually not possible when we are in the defensive parts of our sympathetic and dorsal vagal, because our frontal lobe shuts down.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_06: We we are not able to collaborate, we are not able to communicate.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_06: So this is why it's important when we're fighting with somebody to take a break.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_06: Because if you both are in your defensive parts of your nervous system, you're cognitively not going to be able to solve the problem because you literally won't be able to hear each other.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_06: You both need to separate, get yourself into ventral vagal where it feels safe with what it is you know, and then safe with the other person, trusting enough there's respect there that you can then go and share from that place.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: So just a clarifying question.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you talked about how to get from dorsal vagal to sympathetic, it's the gentle, soft, caring, loving, small things that we do.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: How do you suggest people get from sympathetic to ventral vagal?
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_06: By mobilizing, by consciously mobilizing.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_06: Sympathetic is there's a charge that's actually not really being dealt with.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, consciously recognize I'm afraid right now or I'm really pissed off right now, and you start working with the feelings and letting your body mobilize, move the feelings out.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_06: And then with sympathetic, it's also can you bring yourself to that lower part of the ladder where it can be safe to go a little slower, which will help you feel feel even more?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_06: And then can you to me like the the sequence is always complete when we get it into ventral vagal and we can communicate it, share it with another person.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_06: So it's like, oh my God, I just yelled like crazy at my kid.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_06: I feel so terrible.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_06: I'm talking to my friend about it.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_06: She's helping me co-regulate in that ventral vagal state that I was overtaken by my nervous system.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_06: I'm still responsible for it, but I understand what happened.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_06: So I have the communication to make the apology that I need to make.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_06: So it's processing that whole stuff feeling of too much energy, too much prana in the nervous system, and mobilizing it in a conscious way.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: I am really struck in the way you're talking about this, from again, you're just sort of alluding to this, but from the maternal child, right?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, find me a moon, new, uh find me a mom, regardless of the age, who doesn't want to feel like a good mom, right?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: We all want to feel like good mothers.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so struck by how we feel like good mothers when we're in the ventral vagal state.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care what we're doing.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: We could be carpooling or at family dinner or tucking our kids in or managing our child's disappointment when they didn't get invited to something, right?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: But we feel like good mothers when we're in ventral vagal.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: And part of the thing I think I hear you saying, I think, is that I imagine people who we're engaging with will meet us wherever we are.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: So if I'm in sympathetic, my child or my partner or my friend or my colleague will meet me in sympathetic.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm in ventral vagal, I'm more likely to invite that back in from somebody else.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: Is that true?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_06: Well, uh, there's something about the way that you said it that makes it seem like permanent, like that that's always happening.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_06: You know, if if if somebody is in ventral vagal, they're pretty fluid.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_06: They can kind of be okay with somebody else's bad mood or something like that.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_06: It's not like because I'm in sympathetic, you'll be insympathetic.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_06: Gotcha.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_06: You will definitely feel that I'm in sympathetic.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_06: And if you can map yourself and know, wait a minute, that's not what I was feeling before I was talking to Patricia.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_06: I'm just feeling what Patricia is feeling, then you can start to pull yourself away from that a little bit more, understanding that you're responding to what I'm feeling, but it's not what you're feeling.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: But because our states create the story, I'm only going to be able to think of it that way if I'm in ventral vagal.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_06: Exactly.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_06: And this is why it is so important for parents to understand and be able to read their child's state, because that you can't convince a dorsovagal child that it's going to be okay to go back to school tomorrow.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_06: But you can get the soft pillows out and get their favorite game out and make their favorite meal and let them feel so safe that they are willing to be able to do it.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_06: Willing to try again.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: So you're showing me a new way of thinking about this idea that I've always shared, you know, self-care is such an overused term.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think we forget what we're actually talking about, but I'm always, you know, the put your oxygen mask on first.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: We need to take care of ourselves to take care of our children.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: But you're showing me a new way of thinking about that.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because really what we're saying over and over in here is that in order, in order for us to be a supportive parent for our children when they're in dorsal, vagal, or sympathetic, we need to be in ventral vagal.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because if not, we're gonna co-create this story together with our child that keeps all of us in dorsal vagal or sympathetic.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_06: And you know, every parent can't stay in dorsal or in ventral vagal.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_06: Every parent can stay in ventral vagal.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_06: But what we can do is acknowledge it and have communication with our clients, with our children, of like, oh, did you notice?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_06: I just switched.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, okay.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_06: And so there's an understanding that we're learning to tend to our physiology so that we can have enough safety to manage whatever we need to manage in that moment in that relationship.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_06: So I guess I felt a little concerned that like the message would be that you have to be in ventrovagal.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_06: You can't.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_06: We can't always be.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_06: It would be unhealthy.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_06: It would be naive if we were all in ventrovagal.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_06: Um, but what we can do is help our kids understand our own nervous system as well, which they already do.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_06: That's like, you know, when your kids, my kids would say to me, Oh, mama, you can go to a yoga class.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_06: Like they would send me out of the house to go to a yoga class because I was looking pissed or distracted or disassociated.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_06: They would tell me.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_06: So it's it's it's more a matter of having the shared language and understanding what just happened that I left ventral vagal.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_06: What was that trigger?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_06: And being able to talk about that to yourself and to whoever else is involved.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing I think I hear you saying is of course, we can't all be in ventral vagal all the time, although I think with practice we can have a baseline more in one place than another.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: But that you're describing activities, you're describing a way, you know, if I'm if I am aware that I'm in dorsal vagal or sympathetic, I know if it's dorsal vagal, I'm gonna find that soft pillow or make the cup of tea or stand in the sun or put my hand on my heart or take it, take a deep breath, or whatever that is.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm in sympathetic, I'm gonna go for a run, I'm gonna move my body, I'm gonna turn on music, I'm gonna punch a pillow, I'm gonna vent to a friend, whatever that thing is, right?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: So that there are activities that we can engage in that are more likely to bring us up the ladder.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_06: That will, not more likely, they will bring us up because your body doesn't want to be told anything.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_06: It wants to be felt what it is you're telling.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_06: And that's when that shift will happen.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_06: That's why when we're stuck in relationships where all of the right words are there, but the body is not feeling them, that is what matters is the body isn't feeling them.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_06: The shift isn't gonna happen.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_06: You know, so I say with this one, beware of that person who has all of the right words, but your stomach is turning in a knot.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_06: That's what I want you to pay attention to.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_06: And you may not know exactly why it's turning in a knot in that moment.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_06: What matters in that moment is you're recognizing there is a discrepancy and your body is not lying, your body is not exaggerating, your body is picking up on something quicker than your mind ever could.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_06: That's the way it works.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_06: Body gets it quicker than the mind.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_06: And if we don't know where we are and what story is being created, we're gonna believe it way too quick.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna put myself on the line here for a moment because, and you and I have talked about this, but I'm actually realizing where there needs to be an addition to what I've always said.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: So when I talk with my clients, this is a very cognitive behavioral therapy model of psychology, but I talk about how our beliefs lead to our thoughts, our thoughts lead to the way we feel in our body and our feelings lead to our actions, right?
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: That and of course, multiple actions over and over is actually ends up look leading to what our life looks like, right?
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I think what I'm hearing you say is that in front of beliefs, has to be nervous system, right?
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: Has to be feeling.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it's almost feeling, belief, thought, feeling, actions like.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: Am I okay does?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_06: And you actually repeated that again.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_06: I heard you say that one other time.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_06: And I remember thinking, oh, I understand that differently.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_06: I would love to have a conversation with Kate about that.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, where do the beliefs come from?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_06: They come from our feelings, and where do the feelings come from?
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: They come from our body, and when we can start to understand in different states, we have access to different feelings, then we can start to it's almost if we could reframe that and put quotes around beliefs, meaning it's our body's belief as well as our thinking.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's the it's sort of a knowing of something.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I'm making it feel more conscious than it is.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of what happened what motivates this is very un am I right?
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, it just lives in our bodies.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: We're not always, we'd always know what it is.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_06: Autonomic.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_06: It is happening all of the time, and we're just learning to detect it, we're learning to watch it and have that shift.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_06: At what point, like for me, a big question that I might have for myself is like, at what point did I leave ventrovagal?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_06: At what point did it stop feeling possible?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_06: And and I was curious and open and feeling creative.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_06: Then I can start to track down.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, that's when I had that thought, or that's when I remembered I didn't do that thing, and I could feel myself sliding down the ladder.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_06: Um, there's something really important I want to go back to because you demonstrated it so well in your example of your small group.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_06: I would rephrase what what your women what might be underneath the surface for a lot of the women who said, I don't like groups.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_06: I would say they've not been in a safe group before.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_06: Because we biologically want groups, we want to be with safe people.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_06: But you gave the felt sense to them that it was safe to not know, it was safe to take risks, that you were gonna make the space safe, that that those are not just words, those are words that the body felt and said, okay, I'm gonna do it, even though it's not been successful in the past.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_06: So that is all around, you know, polyvagal theory.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_06: We say that the the treatment is safety.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_06: Without safety, I'm not gonna connect with you and I'm not gonna learn from you.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_06: Straight up.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_06: If it's not safe in your family, the family is not gonna want to eat together, it's not gonna want to talk with each other, it's not gonna want to connect with each other, and it's not gonna learn from each other.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_06: So you understand for yourself what makes you feel safe, you understanding and have language for your kids around what feels safe to them.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_06: And sometimes the word safety, people don't like it, so you have to come up with something else.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_06: But and the same thing with your whoever else lives there.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_06: When we start to know that feeling of safety and we tend to it, we're we're moving up and down the family ladder, and it's all okay.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_06: We all go up and down, we all go up and down, and we give ourselves space and understanding around that.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_06: So I want to really acknowledge that that that ventral vagal aspect and when we get together in groups, that is the most important thing for any group leader to tend to.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_06: And that's gonna come across when you're being you.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_06: If you're trying to act differently than you, our bodies will feel it, you know, and and we won't be able to connect because you're not fully connecting, you're not fully in ventral vagal.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the way I describe safety, you and I have talked about this, I think, um, is confidence.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: I am okay.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_02: That that to me, a sense of safety is a sense of knowing that I am okay.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I can be scared and safe at the same time.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: I can be in pain and safe at the same time, I can be heartbroken and safe, I can be confused and safe at the same time.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's that yes, right?
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_06: It's sort of like and that's what our nervous system is designed to do.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_06: It will get us through any crisis, any strategy or any tragedy, any worse thing that could ever happen eventually.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_06: The nervous system is designed to help us digest it and understand it.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and that's what we're allowing ourselves is to fill that full palette of life, life on life's terms, and being able to still, you know, move up and down and be okay with wherever we are, knowing that at least we know where we are, and it's and it's not a stuck pattern.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_06: The more you can actually what we call regulation is your ability to know right now where you are on the ladder and be able to say that to other people.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_06: Regulation is, hey, I'm a little bit endorsal vagal right now, you guys.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_06: I think I'm gonna not have dinner tonight.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_06: I need to go and take a bath, put my legs up the wall.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_06: I love you all, but this is what I need to do right now to start to, you know, move past this.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_06: I'm telling you, I'm not making you guess, especially our kids when they're like, Mama's not at dinner.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_06: Oh no, I'm a bad kid.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_06: Something's, you know, oh, she really is still mad at me about that.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_06: No, we give language around our physiological safe uh state as a cue of safety so other people understand not only who we are, but how we know how to take care of ourselves.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_06: That is such excellent modeling.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and what regulation does is it gives us resiliency, and this is what we have to work on with our kids, is helping them get that pivot when they don't get that thing that they don't want.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_06: And that pivot, resiliency comes from regulation, which means that we know how to get to the top of the ladder.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_06: We know how to go, okay, I didn't make the team, but maybe something in the future is is gonna happen that will be even better for me.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_06: And I don't know what that is, but I feel like I I believe that.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_06: I feel like I feel that open.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_06: So resiliency comes as the result of regulation.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so moved, like literally, I feel a little like prickle behind my eyes of hearing you talk about this.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: You are so brilliant in the way you describe these things.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just so grateful for the this perspective because I think we need something visual.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: Most of us, I won't speak, but most of us need something visual.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, these are just ideas that we kind of can't hold on to.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it actually, it's not easy, but it's quite simple, right?
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: And sort of the it's like if I could summarize what I've heard you say in my own words, it's it's all okay.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: We're all gonna move through these different states.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a problem.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we can actually, if we're willing to slow down enough to really in those little bits that feel safe enough to do so, the moving from dorsal to sympathetic to ventral vagal is actually quite simple, right?
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't take rocket science, it's like the simple things that allow us to move.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: And if we can just honor where we are and not criticize ourselves, honor where our kids are and not criticize them, but make room for the shifting, it moves.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: It all moves.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_05: It's designed to do that.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_05: It's designed to do that.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, ah, this is so awesome.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_03: Any final thoughts you want to share before we close up?
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: No, I think we I think we really did it.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_06: I think just closing up with that, how you opened up that our states create our stories, and when we start to really take this ladder to heart in our own spine and and understand it ourselves, and be more gentle with ourselves when we feel depressed, when we feel really sad, and treat the body first before we go to the mind.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_06: And the same thing when we're feeling anxious or when we're feeling avoidant, you know, that we treat the body instead of the mind.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_06: Um, that is gonna allow us more access to ventral vagal, which ultimately will give us that that willingness to take the risk.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_06: I guess that's how I really maybe that's how I want to end is that, you know, life is limited and without ventral vagal turned on, we're not gonna take the risk.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_06: And it's so it's so important for us to learn how to take those healthy risks because we're designed to keep growing and changing.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_06: And if we won't, we'll just keep feeding those defensive parts.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_06: So I always say to people, I I want you to, you know, not always think of like safe in danger.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_06: It's just like, what's the healthy risk so that I can like fall in love with my life and fall in love with myself?
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's so beautiful.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: So just to summarize, back on this chart, we're talking about states create stories.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: The state of dorsal vagal will create the story of I am trapped, I'm immobilized, I'm collapsed, I'm shut down, and all of the language and thoughts that go along with that, the state of sympathetic is gonna lead to the stories of needing to fight or needing to flee, of being like that threat, that story of danger and the state eventual vehicle is gonna lead to the story of connection and being engaged and feeling safe and social.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: I love that states create stories.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's super helpful.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I love you.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for taking the time with me today.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_06: Uh have a good one.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'll see you soon.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_06: Bye.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, you guys, it's Kate.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
• 59:07
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• 59:10
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• 59:15
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• 59:24
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• 59:28
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• 59:29
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• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.