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S3 E5 | What If I Don’t Feel Ready to Forgive? · Therapy and Theology

• Lysa TerKeurst: Hi, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Therapy & Theology, with my friends, Proverbs 31 Ministries’ Director of Theological Research, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, and Licensed Professional Counselor, Jim Cress. Before we get into our conversation, I want to remind you about the Listener Guide we're making available for each episode of Season 3. We know these episodes can be a lot to digest, so this is a resource my team created to help you practically apply what you're learning. Whether you're listening on Therapy & Theology podcast or watching us on the Proverb 31 Ministries YouTube channel, we've linked the free Listener Guide for you in the show notes. Now, in this installment of Therapy & Theology, we're going to cover forgiveness. Now, I know the minute that I used to hear the word “forgiveness,” I would cringe, back up, cross my arms because I immediately started thinking about the hardest things I've ever walked through, and there was a lot of resistance there. Even though I was a Bible teacher and I knew God's command was to forgive, I felt like surely there has to be an exception. Like surely we're not supposed to forgive everything. Because at times, forgiveness, to me, it felt like an unfair gift that I was having to give to the person who hurt me the most. And I think a lot of that was just my misunderstanding about what forgiveness is and what forgiveness is not. So first off, we're going to take a deep dive, both from a theological standpoint and then also an experiential standpoint with a therapeutic side on forgiveness: what is it, what not, and what does forgiveness mean when it's mentioned in the Bible? I want to say at the very top of our show here that one of the biggest misunderstandings I had was I thought forgiveness and reconciliation had to hold hands, like in order to forgive, you had to reconcile. So we're going to address that and find out that's not actually true. Those two concepts stand alone. We're also going to talk about another big concern I had, and that was, I felt like if I forgive this person and the other person isn't saying they're sorry, isn't owning what they did, isn't repenting, then I kind of felt like, what's the point? And so do I forgive someone who isn't doing all that? Because if I forgive them and they're not repentant, doesn't that mean I'm kind of saying that what they did was, and I know it's very much not, OK. So I had a lot of true concerns around the forgiveness process. And then the biggest question I had, and something that we covered in one of our sessions is, how do I forgive? Because I felt like it was this rote process that I was like, OK, I'm going to eke out these words of forgiveness. But then five minutes later, the feelings of bitterness and anxiety were coming back on me. And you really did a fantastic job from a therapeutic standpoint helping me understand what was going on and what to do about it. So let's first turn to you, Joel. Forgiveness. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, so I think first I want to look at, like we always do, Lysa and Jim, what is this word from a biblical, theological standpoint? And so I did a quick kind of word study on this, and I found that the English word “forgiveness” has different Hebrew words and different Greek words. But here's [what is] interesting. Of the Old Testament, of the 57 instances that we have, the weight of the usage of forgiveness is an indulgence toward something. It's actually talking about a heart inclination toward something. What is that toward? It's a release. In the New Testament, roughly 75 instances, the weight of the usage is to leave or to forgive. So what does that tell us about the Bible? Well, one, it tells us that forgiveness is super important. It needs to be something that the human heart has an indulgence toward. And the New Testament kind of fleshes it out a little bit more. Well, what is the indulgence toward? It's to leave behind something; it's to clear a debt, in essence. And, Lysa, I remember when you and I spent a lot of time researching and studying this topic, and I think you were looking for, and I was also looking for, the escape route. Lysa TerKeurst: Right. Joel Muddamalle: Forgiveness, there are a lot of words in the Bible. Lysa TerKeurst: The exception clause, there has to be one, right? Joel Muddamalle: There's got to be. And unfortunately, after, I mean, you say 1,000 hours of study, I say 2,000 hours of study, the truth is probably somewhere in between. There was no exception clause. Lysa TerKeurst: That's right. That's right. Joel Muddamalle: And so forgiveness seems to be ... and we're going to get into some texts. I know you've got some verses that you want to look at. But I would look at forgiveness as a requirement. It is unconditional. And before you start to panic, you're like, Joey starts to feel unfair and you cross your arms, just know that there's hope on the other side, and there's some misunderstandings of what forgiveness is. But we've got to start here. Forgiveness is a requirement. It is a biblical command given to us. It is the mark of extravagant forgiveness present in the life of the Christian that actually sets us apart from the rest of the world. And it gives us a reason and other people a reason to be drawn toward the goodness and grace of God. But when we think about forgiveness, we need to understand it in its right social and historical and linguistic context. Well, what is that? There are two Greek words that are being used, and then we're going to get into some of the verses that you have there, Lysa. But one is aphiemi, and this is in Matthew 6:14-15. Aphiemi is a judicial declaration of a release. It's saying, you're innocent. Like, I'm done. I'm no longer going to hold this offense against you. Notice this. It has everything to do with me and much less conditioned on them. This is a personal act that I am making. And then the second word is this word charizomai. Now, in a previous episode, we joked about the fact that sometimes I mix metaphors. It is a thing in my life. Jim Cress: We'll correct you. If we don't understand, we'll correct you. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, you'll correct me. That's right. It's a sign of humility in my life, and I love it. But I also want to point out that there was another great biblical theologian and scholar that used mixed metaphors all the time. His name is the Apostle Paul. So I feel like I'm in good company. But Paul has this tendency of taking two different words and combining them together to get to something that is super important. And he does this in Colossians 3:13 and in Ephesians 4, which I think at least you're going to get into the Ephesians passage. But this Greek word is charizomai. Charizomai is built out of the Greek word charis, which means grace. So it's a type of forgiveness that is grace-laced. What is grace? Grace is unmerited favor. Again, notice this. It's a gift that I give that I am acting and participating in that does not require anything from the other person. And so forgiveness needs to be framed as something that I participate in, that I'm doing, that I'm releasing an offense that somebody else has done to me. And it's not conditioned upon whether they've repented or they've done this or done that or haven't done this. It actually has to do with a lot more of my personal peace and my personal sanity so that I can move on. And this is the framework of where forgiveness is a biblical command. It's an imperative, and it's not something that we can really bypass. Lysa TerKeurst: That's so good, Joel. I think in the years where I've done my own forgiveness work, and like I said, there was a lot of resistance to it. But I started to understand a couple of profound things. One, forgiveness is a whole lot less about the other person and a whole lot more about keeping my heart swept clean. I honestly feel like forgiveness is part of God's prescription for healing. And the other thing that I kept thinking and kind of struggling with is, I just don't want to forgive. Somehow bitterness and unforgiveness almost, to me, felt like a protective wall that I could hold up against this other person. And that if I could just hold on to my bitterness, that I would never let them get close enough again to hurt me the way that they hurt me. And obviously, there are better ways to create emotional and physical distance with someone, such as boundaries, or separations. But bitterness wasn't really protecting me. It was actually eating away inside of me, and it was turning the best of who I am into something I was never meant to be. Bitterness isn't just a feeling; it wants to be a consuming feeling. There's not just a little bit of bitterness, because bitterness is like acid; it creeps out, and everything it touches, it corrupts. And so I had to start understanding that, OK, God's forgiveness, it is a way that my heart can be swept clean so that the best of me can reemerge. It's God's way of healing. But also, I had to realize that God's forgiveness, it doesn't start with me; it starts with God. Forgiveness comes from God, and as God's forgiveness flows to me, I simply must cooperate with it and let it flow through me. And so forgiveness is a lot less about my determination. It's really about my cooperation with God's way of healing my heart. Now, here's the hard thing. If God's forgiveness flows to me, and it does, and I do not let it flow through me, the heavy weight of forgiveness is almost too much for me to bear. So let me read a couple of verses you mentioned from Ephesians 4. Let's start in verse 26: "Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil" (Ephesians 4:26-27, ESV). Now, here's [something] interesting. As I was reading through Scripture, I started to see a pattern emerge throughout Scripture, and this verse is pointing to that pattern. So many times where I see bitterness, resentment and unforgiveness, those harsh emotions, anger, that God tells us, we can feel angry, but we don't have to sin in our anger. So many times when I hear these really hard words, the devil is mentioned as being right there. I mean, it starts even in Genesis 4. It's like where God — Joel Muddamalle: The first human conflict. Lysa TerKeurst: That's right, the first human conflict that ended in a murder. And before the murder happened, God came and said, "Let me instruct you. There is a way out. Remember that sin is crouching at your door." It desires to have you, to devour you, right? Yeah. And of course, this is the story of Cain and Abel. And Cain doesn't listen, and he still proceeds on. And then of course, his brother passes away and is murdered. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. He murders his brother. Lysa TerKeurst: I know. I always want to kind of soften it up a little bit. But no, it was murder. OK. Jim Cress: That's the peacemaker. You're just a wonderful peacemaker; that's coming out. Joel Muddamalle: A theologian that's like, "Well, you know." Lysa TerKeurst: This is why the balance is good here. Jim Cress: Our words do frame our reality. Let's be honest about that. Lysa TerKeurst: Yes, this is true. But I started to see this pattern emerge where there's unforgiveness. It's almost like putting blood in the water, and the sharks are drawn to it. Jim Cress: Quite a picture. Lysa TerKeurst: The enemy is drawn to the smell of unforgiveness in our heart. Joel Muddamalle: The language of devouring brings up that language of a lion that is ready to devour and consume prey. So that shark analogy, metaphor is ... it's perfect. That's exactly what's happening in the biblical text as well. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. So let's read it again. It says, verse 26 of Ephesians 4, "Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger ..." (ESV). In other words, don't lie in your bed and become consumed with bitterness and anger and resentment, and then right behind that: “and give no opportunity to the devil” (Ephesians 4:27, ESV). Then let's go on down to verse 29, "Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear" (ESV). So you see, I'm starting to see; it's like we lie in our bed, and if the sun is going down and we don't allow the Lord to sweep our heart clean, we're just going to lie in all of these harsh feelings. It is going to affect us because what we focus on, what saturates us most deeply, what we think about and lie in our bed and consume, that is going to come out. And so it's no surprise to me that the very next part is just like it's going to come out in our words because bitterness doesn't sit still. It comes out and often comes out sideways. “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up.” And then it goes on in verse 30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God," which can we just, say, I mean, just let that sit on you. If we don't do this, we are grieving the Spirit of God. I mean that's a deep statement. So it's not just causing chaos in our life and for those around us, but it is — Joel Muddamalle: Creating sorrow in the heart of God. Lysa TerKeurst: — Sorrow, deep sorrow in the heart of God. "By whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30, ESV). And then here's what it's instructing us to do. "Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another," — not in your own strength but — "as God in Christ forgave you" (Ephesians 4:31-32, ESV). Indeed as God's forgiveness flows to us, we must cooperate with it and let it flow through us. Joel Muddamalle: So good. Lysa TerKeurst: So we want to turn over to you, Jim, in just a minute. But biblically speaking, help us understand this notion that forgiveness and reconciliation don't always have to hold hands, because this is a major point where I was getting tripped up. Joel Muddamalle: I think that's a really great question, Lysa, and it's one that is often ... again, we've talked before about conflating something that is unique and exclusive to God and expecting that characteristic to also be unique and exclusive to humanity. And so with God ... notice what Matthew 6 says and Ephesians 4 says and even Colossians 3:13. I'm going to read a couple of these. Colossians 3:13, “Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other;” — so that the forgiveness is conditioned — “as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive” (ESV). And you already read the Ephesians 4 [verses], but Matthew 6:14-15 says, "If you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses," — this is scary — "neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" (ESV). I mean, this is pointing to how important this is. Now, what is this forgiveness that God has given to humanity? It's judicial. On the cross. Jesus dies on the cross, and He offers the free gift of forgiveness to everyone. And because God is God and Jesus is perfect, He then gives the ability, the possibility of reconciliation for all who would — and there is a condition actually here — for all those that would repent of their sin, turn from their wickedness, and turn toward Jesus as the Messiah. Right? Now, here's the thing. That is always possible with Jesus in terms of Yahweh in relational relationship, because that's unique to God, that's part of His character and attributes. When it comes to human-to-human relationships, the forgiveness is a command. So the command to forgive is a requirement in the Bible. So here's the way I would summarize this. While we are required to forgive others, we have a responsibility to pursue reconciliation if possible. At this point, everybody's like, "Joel, I need you to prove this from the Bible, not just because you said it." I'm happy to do so. Let's take a look at Romans 12:14-17. Notice the language. This is what it says: "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep." Now notice this: "Live in harmony with one another." And then how do you live in harmony? “Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly [or the humble]. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all” (ESV). What is the inverse of this? This is kind of a biblical hermeneutic of how we need to read the Scriptures. It says “live in harmony,” which means that to live in harmony, there's a consequence for living in disharmony. How do you live in disharmony? The presence of haughtiness, the presence of pride, looking at yourself as much higher than everybody else, repaying evil for evil, not doing what's honorable. These are all actions that create disharmony. And then probably the linchpin: Romans 12:18-19. And this is what Paul says in a society and in a Roman culture that was divisive; it was tough. This is what he says, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all" (Romans 12:18, ESV). So it's really important. How does Paul phrase this? He starts with, “if possible.” It's a conditional clause, which implies that sometimes it's not possible. OK, so this is a little bit of Bible exegesis here. “If possible” means that the possibility is that it's not possible, but there's an imperative. What's the imperative? “So far as it depends on you.” At this point, we could be really frustrated because it's like, why is it always me? Lysa TerKeurst: Right. Joel Muddamalle: Why am I the one who's always got to forgive? Why am I the one who always has to go first? And I would look at you and we are in conversation and just say, but imagine if Paul wrote it different. What if he said, “If possible, so far as it depends on them?” That's devastating. Lysa TerKeurst: It is devastating because you cannot ultimately control another person, change another person, get another person to cooperate in any way, shape or form. Joel Muddamalle: You are handcuffed. That is just brutal. And so this is actually God's kindness. So again, if possible, which means sometimes it's not possible, so far as it depends on you, which means I have a personal responsibility to do all within my means in order to ... And what is the goal? What is telos, the outcome? To live peaceably, to have shalom. How do we put all this together? And this is where the reconciliation is only a possibility. It's in mind. Sometimes it's possible. And I've done everything within my means. And the other person is repentive; there's harmony restored. There is time-believable behavior, which Jim talks about a lot. And in those situations, peace can be restored. But sometimes it's not possible. And you have done everything that you possibly can in order to, within your means, to create an environment of peace. But peace is not present. What do you do in that situation? You're still responsible for peace. Peace is not conditioned. So how do you establish peace here? Sometimes it means that you have to remove yourself from the situation so that peace can be established. And that means that there are situations where forgiveness is always required but reconciliation is only present with a possibility. So here's how I would say it, and this is what Jesus says. Forgiveness is unlimited and unconditional. This is Matthew 18. But reconciliation is limited and conditional, based on repentance, a willingness to be discipled and humility in the restoration process. And if you want a great example of that, look at Luke 19:8, which is the story of Zacchaeus. Lysa TerKeurst: That's wonderful. Well, thank you for that clarification because it's really important. And obviously, we are called to demonstrate self-control because that is evidence of God's Spirit in us. So while we're not called to control another person, we are called to remain self-controlled. And just like Joel said, we can do everything as it depends on us, so far as it is within our control, which just means me. And here's where it really hit home to me. I remember one time I sat down and I wrote a list. This is the best of who Lysa is: I'm kind. I'm generous. I'm long-suffering. This is the worst of who Lysa is, and the worst of who I am is actually the opposite of those things. It's like, I can be unkind. I can be impatient. I can be skeptical of people and withdrawn. And here's what determines whether I have the best of me front and center or the not-so-great me front and center. It's self-control. It is recognizing that I must continuously choose to put myself in a situation where through appropriate boundaries and through this beautiful gift of forgiveness, I am able to walk forward even if the other person doesn't change. What brings up the worst in me is when I keep trying to get this other person to change, thinking if only they will do this, then I will do this, then I can have peace. But that's not true. I can remain self-controlled. And part of that self-control is removing myself from situations that boundaries are being violated, the other person is continuing bad behavior, and I am getting ratcheted up in my frustration and my anger, and I must be in that moment. I must choose self-control. I used to feel so frustrated, I think because I kept waiting for this other person to say they were sorry. And so in other words, my ability to heal and move forward was attached to the decisions of the person who hurt me. Joel Muddamalle: Their repentance or not. Lysa TerKeurst: Right. And so it finally kind of sunk in my head. I was allowing the person who hurt me to hurt me twice. They hurt me originally, and now I'm allowing them to hijack my ability to heal and move forward. So I had to detach my ability to forgive, my ability to heal from this other person. I had to say, no matter what their choices are, no matter if they never say they're sorry, no matter if they just don't even come back and have a conversation with me, so therefore, I can't even verbally tell them that I forgive, I can walk this out with God. And with God I can choose to forgive, not necessarily for their sake, but for my sake, so that it became my choice, my healing. And that was a beautiful step of reclaiming my future, and it was important for me. So forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean it's a horrible, awful gift that the one who is hurt has to now give to “make it OK in the situation.” Forgiveness for me was an opportunity for God to help me sweep my heart clean of things that were just not in keeping with my true nature. It's not in my true nature to be bitter and full of revenge and anger. And it is in keeping with my nature to be kind and tenderhearted. Therefore, forgiveness allowed a pathway back to the best of me. Now, it's not a tidy process. Jim Cress: Not that I found. Lysa TerKeurst: It is hard. It's like one thing to say, "OK, OK, we forgive. We understand forgiveness is biblical." And thank you, Joel, for that theological wisdom and insight. Now, I turn to Jim and I ask the question, which I asked with tears rolling down my face, how do I forgive? I had been a Bible teacher for decades. I'd been a Christian for a really long time, and honestly, I never had someone teach me practically how to forgive. I knew I should, but how do I do it? And that was a profound lesson that you taught me from a therapeutic standpoint. So do you want me to tell a story or do you want to tell the story? Jim Cress: I'd love to hear you tell it, and I was there for it. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. Jim Cress: I can remember the almost shocking thing, sometimes a flinch of what? You asked me to do what? Yeah. I'd love to hear your narrative again. Lysa TerKeurst: So I was in a session with Jim, and he said, "Do you want to heal?" And I said, "Yes." Do you want to get better? Do you want to move forward? Jim Cress: That's a Jesus question. Lysa TerKeurst: It is. Jim Cress: You really want to be [inaudible] at the pool of Bethesda, woman at the well, thirst ... So we were like, why would you ask such a dumb question? It's like, I never assume that. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And I'm like, "Of course, I do." And Jim said, "Well, today is a good day for us to work on forgiveness." And I was like, "Are you high?" Seriously? I just told you that I wanted to heal. I did not say I wanted to forgive. And you helped me connect those two together. And so I finally became convinced, OK, I'll trust the process just a little bit. And so you said, "Well, let's start with forgiveness. Let's start with the hurt that's happened to you." And you were very gracious, and you handed me a stack of three-by-five cards, and you said, "Just write out what's happened, Lysa. Just write out each thing that has hurt you." And so I thought, That I can do. So I started writing one thing on each card, and I was laying them down on the floor, and there was a lot of hurt inside of me. Jim Cress: I saw it. Lysa TerKeurst: A lot. And so I laid [them] down, and before I knew, it's like the carpet was really filled with all of these cards. And as I took a step back when I thought of the last thing and I just put that last card down, I remember thinking, No wonder I feel so heavy inside. No wonder I feel so confused because this is a lot to sort out. Jim Cress: That was probably a big deal. I know you both know this, but to do them more experientially, to write the cards out, laying them in that long kind of path. They weren't just scattered; they were in a path in my office for you to see them and go, "Whoa." That's a step to go, there's a lot here, versus if you just narrated and told me. But to show me anything, you can tell me; you can show me. That's kind of the thought behind it. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. Jim Cress: It's like, wow, look at that. Lysa TerKeurst: And what was so profound as I was standing there looking at all of this hurt written out and on these cards and you were standing there with me, something very profound happened. You looked at me, and you said, "Lysa, I believe you." And I could cry right now thinking of that moment because what I really needed, and I think what was really holding me back from forgiveness, it wasn't so much that I needed the other person to acknowledge what they'd done to me. I needed another human to look at the hurt and acknowledge with me what I'd been through, just another human to bear witness to this happened and this was awful. And I needed that moment. And so when Jim said he believed me, it was just — I can't even describe what it did to me — but it was very profound. And in that moment, you also said, "And, Lysa, if no one else ever says they're sorry for what happened, I'll say it to you." And to hear another human say to me, "I acknowledge that this is real. You have been through this. It is awful; it should not have happened. And if no one else ever dares to say they're sorry, I will. I am so sorry for this pain that you have walked through." And in this series, we've been talking about some tough stuff. We've been talking about toxic people and the harm that can happen inside of a dynamic of dysfunction. We've been talking about the devastations in a marriage that can end in the death of a marriage with divorce and your life not looking the way that you thought it would. Hard things like adultery and abandonment and abuse. This is heavy, heavy stuff. And I wrestled a little bit. Is this really the episode that we want to tuck in here? Because we've talked about some of the most devastating things that can happen within a human relationship with another person. And yet, I know what forgiveness did to me, and I know how powerful it was for my healing. And so we don't want to just know that we should heal; we want to be equipped to heal. And believe it or not, forgiveness really is crucial. Jim Cress: By the way, back to aphiemi. You may be going here next, and you've taught this; you've spoken on it, that we didn't just lay cards down of all the facts. Aphiemi, at least part of that, to cancel the debt that we began to say, well, what did each one of these things do to you: fact and impact? That's where a lot of even emotional feelings and thoughts and connections can come, of connecting dots and go, "Yeah." As we've said 100 times, that the same sun out there that hardens clay softens butter. And for you to realize, yeah, that's what it did. Listen two words to me, not to everybody else. That's where often that deeper connection could come on because you had those cards too. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so glad you brought that up because when you experience a trauma, there's two parts to the trauma. There's the fact of what happened; that was the moment that it happened. These are the facts. But then there's the impact. What did this cost me? What did this do to me? So I'm so glad you brought that up. Therefore, forgiveness has to be two parts. Jim Cress: Which is the track, if you look at it as I've said a million times, my fit principle: FIT. Facts, this happened to me. I is impact. What did it do to me? Spend some time there with someone helping you. T is track, and it's chosen, even if it feels unchosen, like subconscious, the track is ... forgiveness is always a track. We just went here in Romans; unforgiveness and bitterness is also a track that I choose. Just think of a track, like a train track. I choose to get on this track. I will not forgive if you're already blurring the lines between forgiveness and reconciliation. Or another one, remember, is forget reconciliation, Jim. If I forgive this person, then they got by with it. And I go, well, they got by with it the moment they did, except for they are in God's economy reaping what they're sowing. Joel Muddamalle: Absolutely. Jim Cress: God will not be — Lysa TerKeurst: Even if you don't see it. Jim Cress: That's right. Lysa TerKeurst: Because sin always comes as a package deal. There's a little bit of pleasure, and then the consequences are also part of that package. And so the pleasure is almost holding hands with the pain of the consequences; whether we see it or not, we know that that is the deal. Sin comes as a package deal. So back to the fact and impact, because trauma is fact and impact. Forgiveness has to be around fact and impact. And so you helped me start with the forgiveness of the facts of what happened. So we went to the first card, and you said, “Lysa, just have this marked moment where you verbalize, ‘I forgive this person for this fact of what happened to me.’” And I was like, “Yeah, but I don't want to fake it in front of God.” What if I just really ... like I don't feel it. And then you added this statement, and it was so beautiful. You handed me these little pieces of red felt, and you said, "Just place a piece of red felt over it and say, ‘And whatever my feelings will not yet allow for, the blood of Jesus will cover it.’" And that's what I did. Card by card by card, I said, "Out of obedience to God, I am choosing to forgive this person for the fact of what happened," and I would list it out. And then I would take a piece of red felt, and I'd put it over the card and whatever my feelings will not yet allow for, the blood of Jesus would cover it. And I did it for every single one of those cards. And then when I got to the last card, I realized it was no longer all the hurt and pain staring back at me. It was just this beautiful picture that Christ has paved: a way through the shedding of His blood for this forgiveness to be possible, for it to be possible for God's forgiveness to flow to me so that it is possible for God's forgiveness to flow through me. Now, here's where the impact happened because I said, "OK, Jim, this is beautiful. I've had this marked moment, and I want to hold on to this. But what happens when I get in my car and I'm triggered with some sort of pain? A song comes on, a picture pops up on my phone? One phone call happens and all of a sudden I feel the bitterness returning back to me and the resentment and the anger, when in reality I just had this marked moment of forgiveness. Does this make me a forgiveness failure?" And that's when you started to explain, "No. Then that's time that you're becoming acquainted with the impact that this had on you. And so it's time for another marked moment of forgiveness. You've already forgiven for the facts, but maybe you stop in that moment and acknowledge, yeah, I'm anxious and understandably so." Because there was a tremendous impact: their actions, they were a fact, but they also had a tremendous impact on me. And so it's another little bit of awareness of, OK, I need a marked moment of forgiveness for the impact. So in that moment, I can choose to say, "I am, out of obedience to God, choosing to forgive this person for this anxiety that I'm feeling, whatever. And whatever my feelings will not yet allow for, the blood of Jesus will surely cover it." Now, here's what I'm not saying: I'm not saying that healing was instantaneous in that moment. The beautiful part of this process is you can forgive for the fact of what happened and be obedient to the Scriptures and be obedient to what God taught and the impact, letting it leak into your life over time. And it will provide space for healing to be a process so that forgiveness isn't forcing you in a moment to say that I'm healed. But you can be obedient to God to forgive the fact and allow for the space that healing requires to walk through the impact. Jim Cress: And often, back to a metaphor here, Joel, but I talk about, literally and physiologically, phantom pain. If someone's had a foot cut off or toes cut off — people have had that — they would say it is as though, "Oh man, my toes are itching right now." But there are no toes there. It is just as real. And so adding to [inaudible] ... Often I've said to people, resting on 2 Corinthians 10:5, taking every thought captive and making it obedient to Christ in His Truth, the red-velvet square. As Martin Luther said, just because those thought birds fly over my head doesn't mean they get to make a nest in my hair; I can say, "You know what? No, I did actually forgive. I forgave fact and impact. Phantom pain. I'm having a memory, or a song." You talked about that. A song, a smell. The olfactory senses are the number one thing in trauma. Lysa TerKeurst: Yes. Jim Cress: So that comes back on and I stop, and I am known to talk out loud. I don't care. And I'll say, "Jimbo, what's the truth here buddy?" Nehemiah 5:7 for the millionth time, and so “I took counsel with myself” and said, "Hey, wait a minute. You forgave that. This is just phantom pain coming back, an old memory, whatever, wants the truth." Sometimes I may go, "There's a little bit of pus still in the wound." And yes, I said that. And I need to go back and do some more forgiveness. But often, I found with me and with people I work with and say, no, I canceled the debt. I did forgive and I gave it to Jesus, surrendered that. So I want to come back just like I do — a little stretch here — with communion. I'm not truly drinking right now, the blood and the body of Christ, but I'm this dude, remember, to me, I'm remembering all that was done and go, yeah, I remember. So I go, "No, I've canceled the debt. I've done this, and this is just a phantom pain." Joel Muddamalle: It makes me think about as I listen to you guys ... I don't think I've ever framed it or understood it this way, but I keep coming back to this phrase that we used a lot, Lysa, that already but not yet. Jim Cress: That's good. Joel Muddamalle: And I think forgiveness actually should be framed in that understanding, that there is an already but not yet. Maybe a different way of saying it is that forgiveness should be understood as now and ongoing. Jim Cress: Totally. Joel Muddamalle: And so it is something now that I participate in; it's the judicial reality of it, but it's an ongoing process that leaves space for when memories hit, when I'm retriggered, and even the exercise that what I can't do now, the blood of Christ will cover. Well, what if the sanctification process is that you maybe need the blood of Christ here in this moment, but there's going to be a year down or 10 days or 25, whatever it might take, where God is sanctifying you to the place where you can deal with that in that moment? Jim Cress: Love that. Joel Muddamalle: And so forgiveness should truly be understood as a now and an ongoing reality in the life of a Christian that's growing toward maturity. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. That's so good. I think it's important for me to just speak straight to your heart too. This was a process for me. That day that I walked into Jim's office and we worked on forgiveness, I wrote about this in my book: Forgiving What You Can't Forget. I remember, I looked rough, really rough, because I felt rough. Life felt so heavy and impossible. And sometimes I think you see me now, and it's like I've got my hair washed and my makeup on, and I'm dressed in a semiprofessional outfit and everything. But this is not what I looked like that moment that I walked into Jim's office. Jim Cress: And I always love your honesty about that because you're an uber New York Times bestselling author and all that; nobody can take that away from you. But even the air freshener and all like that, I remember seeing you there. And I'm just saying, this is an add-on to you. This is one of my favorite parts of counseling, that someone would trust the process, maybe me, some to come in and look very, very messy or whatever else, and they will feel hopefully safe that Jim's not ever going, "Wow," or judging. But people will come in off the stage, and there are little stages that everybody's on — the stage of your life. We all have that. And to come in and say, "I'm very messy today." And for me to sit with the person, trying to be as safe as I can in the presence of their mess. That's probably the favorite part of counseling for me, is just to be the Jewish concept of “sitting shiva” and being with that person as they are ... And yes, it's true. My HUB, I've said, if you do not do anything else, and in friendships, you all can do this. I hear you. I really do. I understand you. HUB, or I'm trying to understand you. And B, I believe you, and I've added the other B — I believe in you. The idea of just, I believe you; we need a witness to our life ... someone says, “OK, scene of the crime.” You're not crazy up in there. It's a simple thing that everyone on this podcast, everyone watching or listening can practice, especially in their most intimate relationships, to not jump quickly to giving advice. Well, what I would do, or even, excuse me ... Well, the Bible says it's like, be with that person, just be with them. Lysa TerKeurst: That's beautiful. Yeah. The air freshener comment made is because I walked into his office and I had my hair up in a top knot, which is code for I have gone way too long without washing my hair. So I'm just stretching the dry shampoo situation and tying my hair up in a top knot. And my face was blotchy; my heart was broken. And as I walked into Jim's office, I had this thought, I can't remember the last time I put on deodorant, and that's unacceptable. So I went into his bathroom, and he had a can of peach air freshener underneath the sink. And so I was like, "Well, I'm resourceful." So I used peach air freshener as deod. So that's that story. Jim Cress: I like the resourceful nature of that. Lysa TerKeurst: Thank you, Jim. Thank you. That's a really kind way to wrap up that terrible situation. Jim Cress: You are a resourceful person. Lysa TerKeurst: But yeah, there were so many counseling sessions where all I could do for our time together was cry. I remember I've curled up in the fetal position, just thinking, I cannot do this. It was so painful and so hard. So I feel like it's important for us to speak very tenderly to you and just say, “We are not trying to oversimplify this process. It is hard; it is hurtful.” A lot of times the forgiveness process, like I said, it's attached to some of the most devastating situations that a person can walk through. And I will also say, I am so grateful for forgiveness. Even though my process started off with so much resistance and angst and even frustration with God that He would require forgiveness of me, here I sit several years past the final moments of that excruciating time in my life, and I do see the benefit of forgiveness. My heart feels light. I just feel lighter and grateful. I do want to read as we end the show today; I've got my phone back here, but I do want to read a poem that I wrote because I think it would be an important thing. So as I pull this up, do you have any concluding thoughts that you want to share, Joel? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I think some people might be just wondering how is this livable? Is this livable? How do we actually — Jim Cress: Very popular question. Joel Muddamalle: And I think one of the things I just want to remind everybody — I wrote this down — one of the challenges that we have is that we keep trying to make real something that is unrealistic. And what that means is, if we keep connecting forgiveness to reconciliation as synonymous, we're trying to make something real that is actually unrealistic. And so it's actually a gift that God gives us by saying forgiveness is a command — it's legal — and reconciliation is in view within the right possibility. And when we can separate those things, forgiveness can actually be a now and an ongoing reality. But it gets really difficult when we try to make something real that's actually unrealistic, and Jesus never invites us to do that. Lysa TerKeurst: Thank you. OK. This is what I wrote: What does healing look like? It looks like tears, facing fears, crawling back in bed, covers over my head. It looks like time, admitting I'm not fine. Not yet and no clue when. Wanting to give up, but not giving up. It looks like a fight, staring up at midnight, a cold bed, jumbled thoughts, emotions both numb and wild. Deciding to live, refusing to give over to defeat. It's not a checklist or a clenched fist or an attempt to barely exist. No, healing is living. It's rebellious acts of resilience. It's chasing the sun, rediscovering fun. It's climbing back up, maybe clawing my way up and through and out, refusing to entertain, defeating doubt. It's working through what I'm walking through. It's counseling and pondering. It's being OK with quiet, and then dancing it out so loudly, lifting my head proudly, kneeling to God humbly, and finally knowing I will be OK. Better than OK. Maybe my best ever. Definitely my best ever.