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What It Really Takes to Get Into Retail: Lessons from Not Bad Snacks · Selling on Giants: The eCommerce Marketplace Podcast

• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Selling on Giants.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Mr.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Will, your host, and today we are diving into a new series, Going Retail, where we unpack what digital first brands learn when they begin to move into retail.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm joined by Milton and Giselle of Not Bad Snacks, a Vancouver-based snack brand built around the idea that healthy snacks do not have to taste boring.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: In this conversation, we get into how they built the brand, why local events became the proving ground for demand, what started pulling them towards retail, and some of the early lessons they are learning as first-time founders entering the CPG world.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you are building online and thinking about retail as your next move, there are some strong takeaways in this one around customer feedback, pricing, packaging, relationships, and how much of retail is still a people business.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into it.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Milton and Giselle, welcome to the Sell and I Giants podcast.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: For people who may not know not bad snacks yet, what do you make and who's it for?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: You want to get that?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I she's calling it.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: I figured we're gonna do that well.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's better for Mitch for answer than yeah.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um basically we uh figured it out uh two and a half years ago that uh all these snacks out there we didn't like.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: It was like uh or too dry or too boring or too even if they were too clean and like they were giving us the functionality that we were looking for, they did not taste good.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: So basically we figured out if if somebody out there are willing to make a snack that actually tastes good, uh that would be great.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then it was when we realized that um his seller was making some dates, she was opening and putting peanut butter on top of it and sharing with friends and family.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and we realized we could make that into a snack because everybody was loving it, but of course we're still missing the macros or the that functionality that we're looking for with the protein, the fiber, and whatnot.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then the journey started, so it started kind of like that, and little by little it started to mold into what not bad snacks is today.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it took us uh almost three years.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: Three years, yeah.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: Three years a lot of our wedding.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Was right after our wedding.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: And uh in the beginning, we designed for ourselves to be the thing that we are missing in the market, but little by little realize that uh is more like to the mid-30s, mid-40s guy that you know is also active, is looking for a snack that fulfills the activity they're they're doing, and also it is indulgent, is like is a good thing to it, right?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think there's a lot of brands out there that they hit the good spot when it says clean, but they're quite boring, or they hit the spot when it's indulgence, but they're quite overprocessed.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the ingredients are not quite there.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: So we're trying to live in the middle, like bridge the gap between the indulgent, the clean, and also bring the functionality that everybody's looking for.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's why that's what we we like to we call them not bad snacks because we always have we are not delicious, right?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: Brownie is a delicious thing, it's super important as well.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we are just not bad, and then like it's very funny how many, many times when we are giving our product to samples for people, they will go and say, Oh, this is actually not bad.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so yeah, the branding has been on point because um uh people have been reacting to it's like, oh, this is actually good, this is actually not bad.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, yeah, that's exactly what we're going for.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: We're not, you know, uh extremely delicious on Natalia with ice cream, but we do deliver the taste that I think a lot of people are looking for and craving, you know.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that makes total sense too.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think like uh my wife and I have a joke when we eat healthier food, it's like, does it taste healthy?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's you know, if it doesn't taste good, it's probably great for you.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, it's that concept.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I love how uh and not not bad, right?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: That that's pretty funny.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: What I do like, and what I noticed from the Chief event where we actually met, you guys have beautiful branding.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love the colors and kind of the look and the feel, it's very playful.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: How did you guys kind of develop the the theme around the brand?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: I guess I think that that was a lot, Milton involved in there.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he was always mentioning he wanted to do something like we we saw that out there, all of uh the other bars are very nice, and even the names are like truly simple or something like that, right?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: And he was like, No, we need to do something more like uh unapologetic, something different that stands out because you literally just have like what a spam three seconds to catch people's um attention on shelf, yeah.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: And he was like, We need to take advantage of those three seconds for someone to grab it.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: So let's just do something different that something that I will actually like for myself.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then Milton is very, very detail-oriented in designs and um yes, like marketing-wise, right?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, we realize that uh I'm from Brazil, his sellers from Mexico.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: We come from countries that the brands they pop up, they are colorful, they're joyful, they're fun.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: And entering the Canadian market was kind of like everything is kind of square and kind of in their own specific spot, and there's no disruption, is everything is very you know aligned.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, let's put a little bit of what we are into the project, into the brand, into the whatever you can see, the not bad snacks, the logo, and whatnot.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we we like we have this fun way of living life.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: Let's translate that into the brands.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because and also snacks should be fun, it should be something that you were looking for that actually, you know, uh have some connection.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think that it was missing a little bit this side of the branding here in Canada.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: At least I know the US has a bigger amount of products, it's a little bit more ahead of the game, but uh we definitely saw an opportunity to put who we are into the brands and make that authentic.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think people are craving that authenticity, they're craving something that you know is a little bit more than just a bar, it's like something that I play with, it's fun, you know.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: I will remember that face, yeah, like it or not, it's something that uh it definitely evokes some emotion from you, and that's what I'm looking for.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's like this connection, and I think this is very important.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: See as well, and it's like, oh, I want to actually wear that, I wanna have that on my shirt, and I think we accomplish that because many times, like all of our family always want they ask for merch for them, they want to have a shirt of with that face, and uh yeah, so yeah, yeah.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: Behind the idea of building a product, I think comes a lot of uh putting a lot of who we are into it, and if we don't do that, and if you try to just be whatever is already out there, you ended up going the direction that is not truly yours, and that might be a mistake, might be the right path for some people, but we definitely saw that if we do things the way everybody else is doing, we're gonna end up being everybody else, doing the snack that we don't like to eat and being the same thing that we saw there, not solving the problem that we we perceived in the first time, you know.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: I like that, and getting above mediocracy too.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, how could you I mean, what I like uh innovation or disruptions would really create the innovation?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's pretty cool.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: All right, I have questions about retail, but one more question for you guys because it's not uh not a lot of people are married couples that run a business.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: My wife and actually and I run our our our business together.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love for you guys just uh to share.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Do you guys have specific roles?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: How do you work together?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh does Gisele excuse me, does the gel just keep you in line uh all the time?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so at the beginning was very tricky.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think uh you get to know your partner way more when you work together, right?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like it really like either makes you stronger or just breaks you up, right?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it was very, very challenging.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: And um it was the challenge, it's always a new thing, like getting married, right?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like getting into a married life and living together.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: So once that, and also starting to run a business.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: So there was of course a lot of things involved and a lot of like emotion.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: And we are both very, very perfectionists, and I am very passionate.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so yeah, I think I think it was a challenge, but uh the end of the day, I think we uh I was okay.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know what?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: He's actually very good at marketing and like uh public relations, and I'm the creative mind, I will say.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very good.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: I did the like develop the recipe, right?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm also good in the in this like uh RD, I think I'm that's where I come.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I'm very good at I like cooking and and and doing different things and trying different flavors and something that you have never tried.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: But maybe if you mix this with this, it's gonna be just like an explosion of flavors.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: So that's more me.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then I think Milton, then taking part over like brand um marketing and talking with uh yeah, the the operations, operations, yeah, and overall the management of the business.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the most important part here was in the beginning we understand how complex it was to add that to the what like to you know to our lives, like okay, it's more complexity, like it's more intensity of both of us together, you know.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: So understanding that Hisela has a part to play, and I have the other helps to kind of divide and like say, okay, this is your responsibility and this is mine.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: So you take production and you run this, and you are the creative creative mind.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: So you're gonna develop the recipes and you're gonna do this.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna, of course, give the opinions whenever you need it, but I'm gonna take care of managing this.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: So once we both understood our roles, it was easier to manage, but before that, it took like six months, maybe the whole year to the first year to kind of understand who play which part.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and like, okay, now we need to kind of be each other, one individual person in the business and not everything together all of the time, because that can be um that can be heavy for the couple, you know.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: It it's already a lot that you need to manage the household, but then another business it might get a lot, it might get very intense.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I think we were able to be able to manage, and then along the way came a daughter, came, you know, his sella got pregnant and all those things.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: So complexity keeps on going, but uh it's also because we are we stood together during the hard times of creating this that made us now much easier as a relationship regarding the business side, right?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you guys are a lot stronger overall because of it.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And to your point, you guys probably spend a lot more time together than you did in the past.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, Olivia.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: For those of you guys who can't see, she's trying to reach through the camera to give me a high five.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, Olivia's joined our interview.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, this was uh really interesting, and like I said, a lot, not as many married couples uh are run businesses together, and that's something we learned early on.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: The roles my wife's also the operator, she manages the team and all that stuff, and then some of you, Milton, and I do sales and marketing, it's it's what I've been doing for a while, so it's nice to just kind of I'm responsible for this and we'll meet in the middle to discuss ideas.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, awesome.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: On that note, we got to know your brand a little bit.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, do you mind telling me about like so where did you guys initially start to sell products?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then at what point in your journey did you decide we got to get into retail and kind of what's what's what's that look like?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh so it took us two years and a half from conception of the idea and start to develop the product, and then November last year, we start uh with the classic pop-ups events going everywhere with the product to be in front of the consumer to get the feedback and whatnot.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: It moved so fast for us because we start getting emails from people that were looking for more and more and more products.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: So basically, since we started in November last year, we got enough involvement from the people that were seeing us in the pop-up events.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to uh put a lot of effort on selling locally first, and I think that's coming back.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: We're seeing that the word of mouth is spreading around.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the mothers of and the daughters and everybody's talking with each other, and we're receiving all these emails one month in, two months in, saying, I need more of this product.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Where can I buy it?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Where can I buy it?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Where can I find it?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: And to be honest, I would never send an email to buy a snack.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: I can go to pick it up where you are.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Where are you?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go there and I'm gonna get this snacks.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so what's crazy, right?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: That start coming in not just once, but like multiple times, and people looking for quantities like 30, 40, 50.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, it's like I I think it's already time for us to step up and go to retail because we cannot, of course, uh supply for all these neighborhoods, we cannot drive our cars everywhere and not scalable, that's for sure.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Not scalable, exactly.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that was the moment when I saw that, like, okay, now is scalability moment, let's start working into the retail, into independence and whatnot, because people are already asking for more, and we cannot help them.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: So let's not uh stop momentum, let's enjoy it, let's serve the wave, and let's see what happens.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, you and when you initially started, you guys were doing a lot of local events, community around the towns, the fairs and festivals we have here.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you guys have something very similar.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then as a result of that, what started happening is these consumers were reaching out and say, Hey, my kids love these, and uh kids can be very picky, so where do I get more of them?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when you realize that you guys had a market and a product that people actually liked.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely, because before that you can only dream about you know what people are like or not.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: Family, and they will always tell you, I think we didn't quite believe that we had a good product until people start coming back and ask where I need more, I wanna go and pick more.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: I send in emails is like, wow, that's a lot of work.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think the the bias of the friends and family, they are important, the opinions, like when you're building the product.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, some of them are gonna um be more sincere, be more sincere than others, but it's only by getting to the cons the to the customer for them to pay the price that you believe is the right price, and then you see that the price is not a problem, you see that the branding is not a problem, you see that they are perceiving the value, the value that you're trying to give, is when you figure it out, okay, if I can scale this, we might just have a good chance.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: So uh Milton, as you guys kind of went on the journey, you did the um you were selling at these events.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: What was there anything you had to change or prepare prior to getting it to retail?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's your packaging or how the product was delivered, like you didn't you didn't start doing the local events with a final product, right?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Was there a bit of an evolution that got it retail ready, if you will?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the product itself, it evolved during these two years and a half.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: And during these two years and a half, we were doing the events and giving for free the product.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: We just wanted feedback in the product itself.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Once we got that right, and we saw that people were like approving, approving, approving, like, okay, this is it.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Then we start selling in the events, in the pop-ups and whatnot.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: What happened then was understanding what price now they want to pay for this and what price we need to be in order for the retailers, the distributors, the brokers also get their, you know, their percentage.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because one thing is selling direct to the consumer in a pop-up event.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Another thing is going to retail, and you have to share that within other people and other players and whatnot.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I think what changed it a little bit was pricing.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: We start understanding better that we had to position at a certain price, uh, not in order to sell the product in the pop-ups, but in the long term to embrace everybody that's gonna play the game.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: Another thing is the packaging.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: The packaging we received so many feedback on the package along the way that we'd end up moving a little things here and there.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: And by listening to the customer, actually, I think we landed in something that really calls attention and it really is like perceives the value that we're trying to give.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so I think the most important thing was listening to the customer, seeing that they were really willing to pay the price even a little bit higher than we thought.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, that was not a problem.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: The thing is testing.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think you need to test over and over again in order to get the right pricing, the right packaging.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think there is a lot of that before moving to retail, and it changes everything because now we have a different package because we listen to the consumer.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: We have a different pricing because we now understand other players in the game.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so from the moment we start selling to now, there was multiple changes, and also in the background, now we need to also pay attention to production and scalability, and minimum quantity orders need to go higher.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: Or how to to work all of this is a little bit tricky, but uh it goes along the way.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think if you're persistent enough, you figure out all these small details, and you get um with a strong presence in the market with like a much more solid foundation, a better product, a better packaging, and a better structure in the back as well.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas like now you understand your numbers, how much you can make monthly, how much you can deliver for this region or the other, interesting, and then the steps start making sense.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: What did you perfect first?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Was the pricing the most important, or was it the packaging in which it's delivered, or is it a little bit of everything?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they came together as we put out there to sell, pricing needed adjustment, packaging needed adjustment.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't know at the time.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: We discover as you go.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think it's a lot of the the a lot of the entrepreneur entrepreneurship uh side of it is is is learning as we go because we don't have experience, we didn't have any experience in CPG.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: We got into this, you know, by chance because we saw a gap in the market and we thought we can make it.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, we had to put a lot of effort on it to make it happen, but uh I think the changes they will happen.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Your product is never gonna be finished.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think there is always gonna be things to be adjusting, and also it's never gonna be perfect.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's never too soon to launch it, even if it's very small, if it's just going to the park and sampling, uh, and also understanding the balance between is good enough, is ready enough, and it's priced in the right uh manner that is gonna pay the bills and is also gonna pay all the players playing the game, uh that you can only discover by by doing it, by getting into the field, by enrolling in the vents, by getting into retail to get all those details playing for you.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, with some of your initial challenges, like uh you priced it wrong, sold a bunch, and realized you lost a lot of money, and then you're like, okay, yeah, back to the drawing boards essentially.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, basically that's it.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's like understanding that my target audience also is very different from my thought in the beginning.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's like is not only exactly who I am as a person, but is is the mother of the kids that love the product.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm a product for kids now that I had I had no idea that was part of my target audience.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: So now the mothers are very involved in the whole process.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: They're giving me tips on how to change the package.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we changed the package because of the tip of a mother that gave it to us.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: She said, I cannot see protein in your packaging right away.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: If I could see that, uh I would not even ask any questions because I love the branding.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think my kids are gonna love it, but I didn't see the protein, it was hidden in the bottom.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: What I did, like I listened to her, I moved to the top.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: So now you cannot not see it.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: That is also a functional product.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: And now I will get much more of the attention of the models.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: They come to us right away, they say, Oh, this is perfect because it's fun.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Also, give the macros that I'm looking for to give to my kids.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we only discovered that along the journey.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't know that in the beginning.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: We had no idea that that was part of the path that was the target audience.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so this is part of the process of not only understanding pricing, scalability, but also your target, target audience.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: It might change along the way.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's actually brilliant though.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh, you're making the package for your customers or the product for your customers.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's great.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Amazon, for example, is one of the greatest companies in the world because it's customer-centric.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Everything's around that customer experience and journey.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Apple is the same way.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you hear a lot of these really great entrepreneurs, they're they have the ability to put customer first, but they also have the ability to listen really well and then execute and implement.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like you guys are on that trajectory, which is really awesome.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, always listen to our customer.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: They know more than than you.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's basically there's no product without the customer.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like you can have the best in your imagination.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's the best product is is foil with gold and whatnot.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: But if there isn't a market out there for you, like you're you're gonna buy yourself your own stock, what is gonna happen, you know?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Buy your inventory.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't you need to listen.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's an essential part of the CPG world, at least, is getting to know that who is buying the product have some concerns, they might have some ideas.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: They they are the ones that are gonna shape the path that we're gonna take.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: And if we don't listen to them, we might end up being the same product that everybody else is already developing.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: I got two more questions for you guys.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: We might run a little bit over.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: You guys got an extra five minutes?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, no problem.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we got it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I know Olivia's ready to play with dad right now.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we'll do it.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: What's uh for both of you guys, what's something you believed about retail before you got into it that or sorry, what's something you believed about retail six months ago that you now realize isn't true?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: That you something that you believe, and then like you just saw that's true.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's not true that you thought was true getting into retail, and now that you're in retail, you're like, that's not even remotely true.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: For for me, it was thinking that it was much more technical and much more like spreadsheets and decks and whatnot, and understanding that it's actually relationship-based is actually that you need to put yourself out there, talk with the person.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like it changes a lot, you know, writing an email and getting those feedbacks by email, then getting to the independent stores or whatever is the retail that you're going for, and actually talking with the managers, looking at the shelf that we're gonna be seeing, giving solutions and talking like personally with the person, I think there is a bet a lot on the founders, much more than in the product.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: That was my perceived idea that I thought the product was 90%.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, it is a lot.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: And don't get me wrong, the product is important, but if you don't, if they don't trust what you are and what you built, and how you as a manager are gonna have a relationship with them, if they don't like the relationship with you, they probably not getting your product.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like there is a big thing there that I had no idea existed, and uh we realize by doing the two things one just dealing by emails and whatnot, and you see that the doors are kind of half open, but once you get personally in front of the managers, the owners, and whatnot, is like it changed from from night to day, like it really makes the difference.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: So perceiving that is not only a technical sale as like pricing, shelf space, uh, you know, uh wholesale, suggested retail price.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is of course important, but this is the minimum.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Almost important part of it is how the relationship is maintained, how you're gonna help them to sell your product.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have solutions for them, or are you just coming and giving them homework to do?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Look, this is my product, figure it out.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so realizing that the path is much more relationship-based than the technology techna uh technicities of it, it was what uh surprised me the most.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: Pretty interesting.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that like uh at the end of the day, there's a human behind everything, right?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just a market or it's something like I think more than when you are starting on on this world of um, yeah, like um the food industry.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you think Costco, you think Walmart or independent stores, and independent stores, not as much as the big ones.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: And and you will be like, uh, just think about the retail, but you don't get to think like you don't stop to think it's actually everything is involved, it's humans are behind everything, right?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: Someone is gonna read your email, someone you're gonna talk with.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just like the market, no, there's always human process involved in everything.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: So at the end of the day, as Milton was saying, we need to we need to show our face, we need to build a relationship with them.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, and and also another thing that had zero idea about it is it's at the end of the day, real uh real real estate, right on the shelf.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh, it's not as easy, oh, I just put my product and that's it.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's what try to convince them why is your product good here?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: What why do I want to put your product and remove something that you already have in there?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: You need to show that, right?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's something that you, as a customer that has a idea about it, like whenever I was walking through the markets and I will grab a product, I've never stopped by and think, oh, what how is that this product ended being on the shelf?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's a lot of work involved in being there.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just as easy as put my product in there.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh definitely not.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: But to your point, guys, it's all about who you know, and and uh and honestly, what I've taken away from it, and it's similar in so many different verticals, but it's like uh, how can I make your life easier?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: To your point, how can I bring the solution to the table that's not uh that's not giving that buyer more work?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because obviously it's mutually beneficial if you're on shelves and the product sells, it's a it's a winning relationship.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really solid advice.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, last question just to kind of wrap this thing up.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: What resources do you recommend?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of people who follow this podcast are in the digital space, they may be starting their journey into retail.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, did you guys go through a coach?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Did you hire a broker?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Was there lots of AI and Googling?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think definitely coming from I was a lawyer, uh, I had no experience in the CPG market before, so I would never step into this without having a consultant in the uh market we are, the CPG, because there is so much complexity behind it.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's a whole new world for both of us.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, if we were to make all the mistakes ourselves, it would take not three years, it would take 10.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: And we it wouldn't cost what it costs, it would take it would cost much more, right?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think essentially something that I know it's costly, I know that it might not be for everyone's budget, but if you don't have some professional in the area kind of guiding you some steps on the way, because you don't understand the complexity that is behind the curtains, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that was essential, definitely essential.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but regarding digital tools, I think we moved a lot with basic stuff like QuickBooks, uh, Squarespace.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like there is a lot of solutions out there, like developing your own website, like a Shopify is great, Squarespace is where is also great.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, of course, how you sell your product, figuring out all those things.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: But um, the main point I think was having the the food scientists by yourself.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: In regarding our product, because how you know how to um scale scale, number one, and also shelf life.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: How do you do that if you don't have somebody by your side guiding you through it?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just would take us too long.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: We would not even begin the process if you didn't have the capacity to have that professional by our side, uh, even though expensive, I think is it was necessary, at least in our case, because we didn't have any experience on it.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it really changed the game.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Once we got this person by our side, our learning curve just like uh diminished like drastically.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: It was very easy to understand the path in front of us, uh instead of like that very slow uh learning process that might never come, right?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because one thing is uh the making a product that that's artisanal, that's handmade, that's meant to be we always call the cookie girls, right?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like someone that just sells cookies on the corner and go to your house and the little girl that sells cookies, right?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: There's that's one thing, and then it's another very different thing making a product that's scalable, right?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: That is commercially is meant to be commercially sold and all that is a way different thing that we had zero idea about it.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that was one of our biggest learning curves.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, is how to from the recipe that I just created, which was very artisanal.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: How can we make this scalable, right?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: Because uh from everything we were doing our nut butters, we were doing uh our date pays, we were doing everything, and like you never stop to think you, as a person that's outside this world, you think like, oh, I'm actually saving so much money because I'm making it all.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you're not like all the time that you are investing in, and and also the the the product you are making is different every time because you you are making it yourself with raw ingredients.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: So all those things, like you never think about that when you are when when your first study is like, oh, I want to open like uh a food business.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: You never stop to think like it's gonna be so much different than I how I thought it was, right?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so and regarding digital products specifically, I think there's two that uh really help us.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: One is chat GPT, it's pretty simple, it's pretty straightforward.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: It helps us with our social medias, with our emails, with everything that you know you need to put some time into it and make our brand voice and whatnot reflecting upon pricing, reflecting upon competitors and whatnot.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: It really helps you to uh figure out things much faster and also helps you redacting perfectly nice emails, put your own voice and whatnot that really helped us in the beginning.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then another digital solution is an AI broker called opener that we just got in touch with it, and they're basically a broker that it costs a fraction of what a real broker would cost.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, they don't get any retainer, and they uh they work as 10 brokers, basically.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you just it's just unbelievable.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I put an eye on AI uh tools out there because they're really changing the game, how the game is approached.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think brokers should be uh uh careful at this point because these uh AI tools are coming with very cheap and good solutions for small business like us.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: They make something that would take 8%, 5%, or 6%, whatever it is, for a fraction of a fixed 300, 400, 500 per month, and they spread much faster than uh actual broker could.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that's a game changer.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think there's a few good AI um tools out there that you need to take a look at it.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: There's also some solutions that I think they're very important to mention, not solutions like programs.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of governmental help, right?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like uh support, I would say.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of uh things from the government like here in in Canada, yeah, that uh offer uh a lot of help to entrepreneurs and uh new businesses and stuff.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: So there's always a lot of tools or like network events happening and things like that that uh at least here in Canada, that uh very, very important for any any entrepreneur that's trying to start something in this world.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of help.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there is help out there as well.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it should be very uh on it.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Also, chat GBT would help with that, you know.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, like which programs in our state, in our province, in our country would help us to make this happen, and it's gonna help you to figure out those things.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, this is another way of using ChatGBT that helped us a lot is like figuring out programs that we had nowhere.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: How do you Google that?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it's already is is is a new era where the solutions are presented to you in a much simpler way, and um yeah, it's just a matter of you putting the time, thinking a little bit out of the box, and uh Chat GBT and all those AI tools are are here to help.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, amen.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: That and it's supporting the great entrepreneurs.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, if I could summarize what you guys said, it's kind of like it's your time or your money, and a lot of times it's better to invest in help with a consultant instead of to your guys' point, 10 years of uh you know doing something the wrong way, added costs and everything else.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh the learning curve to your point, Giselle.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: I never really thought about uh I know like if you hand make something, you're right, you have to have preservatives, it needs to be shelf stable.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: How do you figure out the expression uh expiration date?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, like all of those things.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm sure chat GPT would help, but it'd be nice to have somebody uh who's done it before who could just guide you through absolutely beautiful guys.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: This was super helpful.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: I want to thank you both for uh joining the podcast and and wrapping up this interview, and it was great to meet you guys in person.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: That was Milton and Giselle from Not Bad Snacks.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: A few things stood out in this conversation.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: First, retail started for them because real customers kept asking where they could buy more.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Second, getting retail ready was not just about having a good product, it meant reworking pricing, refining packaging, understanding who the real buyer was, and learning how many other players need to be accounted for once you move beyond direct to consumer sales.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: And third, one of the most important lessons they shared was that retail is far more relationship-driven than many founders expect.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: For digital brands, considering retail, that is the bigger theme here.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: It is not only about product quality or margin math, it is also about trust, timing, shelf space, and making life easier for the people on the other side of the table.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again to Milton and Giselle for joining me and sharing their early journey.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to check out their website, not badsnacks.ca, and you could check out their Instagram as well.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: The links will be published in the comments below.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed this episode, follow Selling on Giants wherever you're tuning in to hear more conversations from founders and operators.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks again for joining.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in next time.