Latest / GOOD CEOs / Why Uncommon Sold to Havas, Killing Time & Materials, and the Power of Saying No

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Why Uncommon Sold to Havas, Killing Time & Materials, and the Power of Saying No · GOOD CEOs

• Ollie: it is, ⁓ Natalie Graham, of Uncommon. For many people ⁓ that haven't been hiding under a rock they know who you they know what Uncommon is, ⁓ arguably ⁓ the best creative company in the world. And under a decade old, is kind of crazy to think about how much you guys have achieved in that time, this is going to be really hard. And I'm not sure if you know what the answer to this question is. But for those that don't know who you are, what is the one piece of work that you're most personally proud of? and welcome back to Good CEOs. Today I'm joined by the wonderful Natalie Graham, co-founder of Uncommon. Now everyone knows Uncommon to be this wildly successful independent agency story where they were acquired by Havas. And I invited Natalie because I wanted to speak about ⁓ why they took that why did they go forward with Havas? What is it like building a company once you've been acquired? Natalie: Oh, that's a really tough question to start No, think if I was asked to choose between my children, I think Ollie: ⁓ what changes, what doesn't change and really what it's been like to lead a business that has retained its independence despite going through an acquisition. Natalie is just incredible as a person. She is, as I call her, the queen of no and I think that's a huge reason as to why Uncommon has grown to where they are without sacrificing who they are. I would listen to this one if you are an independent agency owner that is desperate to maintain your culture as you either consider going through Natalie: pick British Airways, think honestly because that partnership is so deep and I think when we first started working with ⁓ it was I think it was the partnership that made us feel like we'd really arrived because it to every part of the studio and what we originally envisaged for what company we've wanted to build. ⁓ it on advertising, obviously, but we do their safety video, we get into the CX. ⁓ It's just it's everything and they're wonderful people and we really love working really closely Ollie: investment, or you consider scaling your company beyond where it currently is today, or internationalizing, which Uncommon has done brilliantly well. Uncommon and Natalie have done incredible things. They've diversified their capabilities into CX, into design. They've internationalized successfully, like really successfully. They are the fastest growing independent or creative company studio in the US. Natalie: closely with Sean and Lisa and the team over there. Ollie: Okay, I'm curious about was there a clear kind of commercial goal to the partnership? When you first said, okay, right, we're gonna work with you guys. I can imagine you were up against massive integrated ⁓ agencies at the time. ⁓ was their major brief goal when they first set out? So an incredible story to tell and you can see when you speak to Natalie and when we kind of cover why that is, there is this deep set and understanding of who they are. And there's also this deep set of we're not done yet. So enjoy this episode. really hope you do. Let us know what you think and let's get into it. Natalie: Well, we were coming out COVID at that point. obviously the airline industry had taken a massive battering. So ⁓ for them, it was get us out of this hole and we need partners that can see no walls between advertising, customer experience and ⁓ just lifting that they do. So needed true partners that understood their business ⁓ and see lots of opportunities rather than feeling like they were ⁓ in tailspin. ⁓ Ollie: Yeah. Natalie: no pun intended. Yeah, and for us, think it was just, as I said, fantastic opportunity to really turn our hand to all parts, all aspects of what we can do. So it wasn't just one advertising brief and let's measure the impact of that piece of advertising. It was actually how do we create a brand platform that can elevate everything. Ollie: Yeah, it's amazing. And I like the out of office work as well. Like it's funny, because I thought that would have been the platform that you guys carried on with the whole way through, but then you put out the most simplistic thing in the world, which has almost become even more iconic than the original out of office thing. the output of that so but I can imagine everything that goes into that is not. How do you arrive at that and go, okay, this is it. This is ⁓ the way we're going forward. Natalie: Yeah. I mean, that's the magic trick, isn't it? Is someone's simple seems like, ⁓ it should have been easy, right? Ollie: Yeah. Natalie: There's sometimes a misunderstanding that because we are very deliberate in who we choose to work with and who we don't work with, come wanting to do brilliant work and they do. have phenomenal clients who are all incredibly ambitious for what their businesses can do. ⁓ come to a certain moment and change. So obviously there's a moment ⁓ means that they have to act and they have to do something different. yeah, conversation starts in a great place, but actually ⁓ it to something that's so simplistic, as you say, with that out of home campaign. ⁓ Sometimes the penny drops and everyone goes, well, obviously it's that, why did we never see this before? But very often it's not as simple as that. And it takes a few goes ⁓ for everyone to recognize that the bravest thing is to do something that's quite pared back, ⁓ as such brand confidence, which obviously is what's so brilliant about that work. Ollie: Yeah, I love it. Okay, I'm gonna go forward now into the future. Hello, welcome, it's 2026. Most recent thing that you guys have done, has made you feel very proud, or as proud or nearly as proud, as BA. Natalie: I love our work for the ordinary. I guess that's easy for me to say now we've won a Grand Prix for the periodic favour work. But that came out while I... ⁓ was just after my maternity leave. So I was quite, it's quite an odd feeling to be so distant from the team when they're doing stuff that's so phenomenal. it may just been the hormones or lack of sleep, but I really chuffed when I saw that work go live. It's flipping brilliant. And I the fact that it ⁓ speaks to how we strategically, right? Really getting the truth of the brand and being able to bring that to in a way that cuts through beyond the category. think is what I've loved about it and it seems like a lot of people have liked that since too. Ollie: I loved it. I mean, didn't even, mean, yeah, my wife's majorly into skincare. So I knew the ordinary was or is. I'm standing in Space NK a lot on the weekends kind of going, that's a really cool brand. And it was only when I saw the periodic fable thing, I was like, that is genius. Again, it's like simplistic. ⁓ I can't imagine it was simplistic to arrive that idea, ⁓ but straight away you see it. It's like, it's like a... you're selling the fact that it's no bullshit ingredients basically. saying that their scientific formula is the right one. Everyone's saying that their concoction of different things they put together is the one that you need. How do you make science sexy and simplistic at the same time? And it was, yeah, I don't want to just make this like me gushing about your work, but that was definitely my favorite thing that I've seen you guys do. Maybe it's because I'm biased. Natalie: No, certainly coming back post-maternity leave, I'm looking for everything to prop up my face sleep deprivation. actually, guess the currency with which ⁓ Ordinary has really owned ⁓ history, its reason for being, I think is what's compelling about that work and all the work done since actually. I think it's just a really lovely partnership. ⁓ Ollie: moving to my third very different question here because we're moving into capitalism now. Welcome. ⁓ I that you're an avid listener of good CEOs and avid reader of our newsletter. So therefore, you'll be aware that this particular series is all about creativity meeting capital. ⁓ I three years or so, ⁓ unknown weirdly near the same age as uncommon. And I remember looking over and saying, wow, this company is fiercely independent. There is ⁓ nearly zero chance that these guys would ever consider taking investment. I even remember you guys saying very clearly like it take a lot for that to ever happen. I guess question more why, why that time and why Havas? And when you took that investment from Havas, my follow-up really is what's changed and what surprised you about, taking investment from a huge French business. Natalie: Yep, good question. Look, think when you start something... As you well know, you have a fantasy for where it can go. And you never quite believe that that's possible. You hope it is. ⁓ And Uncommon obviously had been growing brilliantly. We were really chuffed with what we were doing, but we wanted to go further and faster. And we knew that the best place for us to do that would be the States. ⁓ Access to some of the best and most compelling briefs that are out there. And not just in advertising, just writ large. design and experiences. And it just felt like it was really important that we were there. And we were getting a lot of calls from the states as well. And during COVID, I'm sure all of us did. The reality was we could work from London. And we did do that for quite some time. But at a certain point, it flipped into us needing to have a crew over there and actually just wanting to build a business over there that felt truly American. So on call, it's cool, but actually having a real sense of what was the Ollie: Hmm. Natalie: common version for America. ⁓ But it's I mean, it's a bit of a gamble opening in the States. And there are many companies that try to do it that sadly have struggled. That's not to say that we've got it 100 percent right. But I think, you know, we're the fastest growing studio over there. I think we've we've done something right. And so back to the back to the question, I guess we wanted to be able to do it and to at it as we know only we can, which is really properly going for it and to do Ollie: Yeah. Natalie: that you obviously need to bet the house and you have to be careful that you're not betting the whole house. on this one thing you're trying to do. our feeling was needed a partner in order to do that and feel like we could go at it harder ⁓ and stronger with that partner in tow. Could we have done it on our own? Possibly. ⁓ But think we have been guessing some of our instincts. And that's always a danger when you're wanting to be so ambitious for not just our future ⁓ as a business, but for all of ⁓ our team to feel like wanted to have access to those opportunities. And it felt like it was was better if we did it with an amazing crew over in the States. And to do that, we really felt we needed a great partner. think we're really lucky because basically it doesn't feel like anything's changed. ⁓ genuinely. mean, that shouldn't be a surprise. because we've got a Ollie: It's definitely a surprise. It's definitely a surprise. Natalie: designed it that way. I mean I think all of us, in myself, Nils and Lucy, but ⁓ wider team ⁓ been involved studios or agencies that have been ⁓ part some sort of acquisition. And as you say, ⁓ I think reason some people were quite surprised when it happened was because ⁓ there's a to think there's a certain way to do these sorts of deals. And we were deliberate in ⁓ what we didn't it to be. ⁓ what we would deem to be acceptable as our partnership and who we were looking for. so back to why havas, because they honestly, when we met them, we realized immediately that they were the right partners for us. ⁓ They're entrepreneurial. They're really They know what they've got themselves into, or maybe not, ⁓ with us. And they want give us the freedom and the support to crack on. and that's what they've us do. ⁓ structure and the way we did the deal was to allow us to still continue to have that freedom. ⁓ Because otherwise I think that can chip away at the core of what you're all about. So that was pretty cool. Ollie: Yeah, it is rare that, ⁓ we a guy on before this man called Matt Lacey speaking about Waypoint, obviously Waypoint do lots of M&A deals. And we looked at the different things you right? So one is straight up PE direct to like a, you know, a Westbridge like Koto have done recently, ⁓ or you do like a PE back group, like a residence, you know, okay, cool of situation. Or you go holding company and it's a straight up acquisition. Most of the time when a holding company acquires a strategic asset or whatever, you normally find it doesn't take too long for them to then build in their processes and systems and the culture gets crushed and it ends up becoming this shell of what it originally was. That was not the case here at all. So if you were a founder of agency right now considering doing a holding co deal, ⁓ would you say to them to make sure that they retain their culture and made that there are non-negotiables to sort of hold on to that independence. Natalie: a really good question. I think when it comes to the structure of a deal, we were really, clear that there were certain ⁓ ways that we showed up that made us special and made us successful. And they're the things that needed to be written into the way that we did the deal, even down to our selection and choice of our IT provider. And I know that sounds quite ridiculous, but ⁓ sort of stuff ⁓ how this deal would show up and how that this partnership would show up for a lot of our team on a day to day basis. And the last thing you is for people to feel that. getting in the way of them being able to just literally ⁓ on with their day and get their work done, right? So ⁓ literally in the small details as much as it is in the larger parts. And I think being super clear about, what makes you special, but also ⁓ the grind where things show up and it's a positive way that it shows up. We've been able to open in the States because of our partnership with Havas, not ⁓ we've got an IT provider, which probably have. ⁓ team but we have our own crew because firstly started out with us so that's part of our culture and how we show up ⁓ also think it's a daily reminder that we are in charge of our own destiny ⁓ and is critical. Ollie: It's interesting, I thought the one thing you would expect to go would be the IT provider. I mean, there's cross-operational things and ⁓ I philosophies and pitching styles and values and ⁓ offices things like that. The last thing I thought you were going to say was the IT provider remains. No, this is very important to us. Why, can I ask a question? Why is that IT provider so special? Natalie: It's just, it's a totem. It's a totem and there are those sorts of things. And I think it's about working out what's special. So, you know, we're a studio. Ultimately, that's not just a nomenclature across the door. It is actually how we show up. And for us, that means that we show up in a slightly different way than maybe ⁓ traditional agencies. We are constantly trying to make, we're trying to experiment. ⁓ are not necessarily looking to Ollie: Yeah. Natalie: up with stuff and then chuck it over the fence for someone else to do, we are trying to ⁓ prototype experiment ourselves. ⁓ And think ⁓ that has been quite key in making sure that everyone understands that uncommon is slightly different. We can't just be subsumed into ⁓ a different of doing stuff that ⁓ doesn't fit that. ⁓ And it also means that we can partner well with people within HAVAS and outside of HAVAS because ⁓ we can people in as we need to, rather than it feeling like we have to become part of the bigger team over there. Ollie: I've heard from a lot of people that you're the queen of no. ⁓ And there was a, I think someone said, what makes Natalie Graham so good? And the first thing the person said is she knows how to say no very politely, but also when to say no. This is a bit of a superpower. And I feel like in order to be confident enough to say no, have to have some level of experience in what you say yes to, I'd love to know like, Natalie: Ha ha ha! Ollie: example of a big no that even questioned your no-ness. ⁓ how do you it? How do you select on what you're turning away? ⁓ much of it is based on hunch and how much of it is based on ⁓ series of criteria that makes you make that selection? Natalie: I'd love to know who said I was the queen of no. ⁓ I wonder if I said yes to them. ⁓ it kind of depends what ⁓ you're weighing up, but I think probably it shows up most ⁓ it comes down to client partnerships. Ollie: Yeah. Natalie: So I'm a big believer that sometimes the worst thing you can do is win a pitch ⁓ because you really have to make sure that that partnership works both ways. And so for me, new business is the most important place to be knowing and perfecting your yes or no, because that helps define the potential for your studio and ⁓ your ⁓ And often, pitches, I think, are the best way be able to grow and to try on new capabilities and to stretch the potential of what you're about. But if you, the same token, if you ⁓ things that maybe just take you backwards or end up feeling like it's groundhog year, ⁓ possibly not the best thing to say yes to. So we're deliberate in ⁓ turning a lot of ⁓ opportunities come our way. And sometimes it can feel desperately uncomfortable. I remember we first started, there was a ⁓ really massive brand that got in touch and Nils, Lucy and I, think it was only four of us in the whole studio at that point. So was Nils, Lucy, myself and an account director at the time. we were really beating ourselves up trying to answer this pitch. ⁓ were getting it all wrong. I mean, to the point where the account director turned around and said, what the hell are you doing? ⁓ have I joined? This is awful. ⁓ ⁓ looked at each other and said, yeah, you're right. We shouldn't do this. ⁓ there was huge money attached to it. It would have potentially you know, being a game changer in terms of our financial fortunes at that particular moment. the work it would have led us to create, the sort of team it would have required us to therefore build as a result of that, all of the knock-on consequences of saying yes to that were something that we just couldn't fathom. So we said no. it was a real, you know, hold on to your chair at time because we didn't think we were going, like, maybe that was the only opportunity that was ever going to come our way. It was quite terrifying, but it was the right thing to do and I remember looking at the P &L sheet at that point and literally crossing out stuff and thinking well I can't do that, I can't do this as a result of having said no to this opportunity being fine staring down the barrel of that because it was the right thing do and then lo and behold ⁓ think it was two weeks later we won two pitches and we you know the rest is history Ollie: I remember there was a time, I feel like I shouldn't say the supermarket, but there was a very famous supermarket known for low prices and bum tapping ⁓ as the jingle. And I remember that walking through agencies and they would award the account to Fallon or whoever it was at the time. And this huge kind of accordion style expansion talent. And they would always last about two or three years at every one of these agencies. And then off they would go to the next one. And it would leave that business in such a bad state where you've probably you've sacrificed some of your values by the people that you've hired because you couldn't hire them quick enough. You've demonstrated work that you're not proud of, but it's the bulk of what you're producing because it's a retail account and it's, you know, flying on the whole time. they never seem to recover or bounce back when an agency or sorry, when a brand that big, that always on, but also that rigid in the way that they work with their partners. So it's amazingly great call, but also hard. do you ever see a supermarket ⁓ or a ⁓ large retail account of that size? How do you ⁓ that beast? Or have you ever seen that happen successfully with an agency where they're saying, look, you're a huge client, but you have to work in our way? Natalie: think things changed. I'm not sure that ⁓ clients really ⁓ able to dictate how something should work these days. think the reality is it will show up in the output, right? So ultimately how we get there is changing by the minute. And the tools we use with AI or whatever, think are changing when it comes to a lot of the retail output. I mean, obviously if there are dictated terms as to exactly how things should work, then it's a bit of a conversation about is that, as you say, we're not going to win stuff at all costs. Ollie: Yeah. Natalie: what are we giving up? What are we changing as a result? And ultimately might be a good thing. It might be great for us to learn how to do something a bit differently and to work within the way that that client works, but ⁓ only we're not giving up what makes us brilliant. Because otherwise, what the hell are they buying? They're going to buy ⁓ into us, without the way ⁓ that us great. And so they'll get a crap version, in which case it's incumbent on us to say, well, that's not going to work. ⁓ So don't think it's about our way or a client's way, it's about building a bespoke crew that works. But ultimately, if it chips away at the stuff that's actually going to make you brilliant, then quite frankly, you should be asking yourself whether or not it's the right thing to do. Ollie: all the things that have sort of happened in the last five or six years. What do you think has changed the most about how clients approach and work with now? Natalie: I think there's ⁓ huge merging of marketing and customer experience. and by that I don't mean just CX, I mean just ⁓ the client responsibility is far more all encompassing. So have really tricky roles. In many cases they have so many responsibilities and ⁓ that can be quite ⁓ a burden as what's the infrastructure, what's the crew, how is that going to work? But ultimately I think from a studio point of view, from my point of view, I think it's hugely exciting because it means that ultimately there might be one person who's responsible for all the different places where a brand might show up. ⁓ If we are true partners to them, we can really help them understand how every single moment of every single touch point there is an opportunity with that's the call center or in retail or in advertising. There's lots of different places where we can make a difference. And I think that can be really, really thrilling, but it is quite a challenge for clients to kind of juggle all of that sometimes. And I think the other thing that's probably changed is I think clients are a lot clearer as to what they want. We had 94 % of our revenue last year ⁓ ⁓ so came knowing that they wanted to speak to Uncommon ⁓ about 66 % of that was non-competitive, so they knew they wanted to Uncommon. ⁓ us, think ⁓ always been a bit like that, but it's pretty significant ⁓ I think that's quite a change in the last few years in particular. Ollie: That's really cool. If there was ever a stat that proved the value of building brand for an agency. ⁓ Nils talking about, ⁓ forget the name of the CCO that he worked for now that was speaking around ⁓ PR being shameless in doing kind of agency PR. But as a stat, that's incredible. ⁓ The brand recall of an agency. ⁓ Natalie: Really? Ollie: Because these it is hard to know what an agency stands for because there's so many ⁓ agencies blurring each other. We had Integrated Gate about 10 years ago where everyone said that they were integrated. But I think in that sense, people kind of lost the ability or desire to kind of stand out and actually go, no, we're okay with not doing everything. We might prefer to be known for something good. I want to move into other agencies and imagining you were, maybe you're like consulting or, you you're kind of, you're around this agency. A lot of people that listen to this are kind of scaling. perhaps moved into the magic million of EBIT and they're kind of growing and trying to figure out what they do at this point. Many agencies are thinking about taking investment or they're thinking of doubling down or they're thinking of internationalizing like you guys did. If you're in that situation right now, imagine you're just topping over, what would your advice be to that agency? Natalie: Well, brilliant that they've got to that point where they're wanting to ⁓ think. We definitely have good parties, but I don't think we've celebrated as much on the milestones we ⁓ But I think ultimately it's about fear. think really it's critical for scaling to not feel any sort of fear. Now that's a really easy thing to say and a hard thing to do, but I don't think anyone makes any good business decisions out of fear. And ultimately I think that's when your instincts are really silenced. Ollie: Thank Natalie: ⁓ I think it's easier for a founder than it is for a kind of CEO inheriting a business because ultimately I think you can look at that zero balance sheet you probably had when you first started and go, well, you know, what's the worst that can happen? I started from nothing. I can build back up. you know, again, that's easier said than done. But I think that should, if anything, help remove the fear a bit. ⁓ I think ultimately need to place some bets. Ollie: Yeah. Natalie: So you're scaling, think if you've ⁓ hit million, if you've hit 10 million profit, whatever it might be, I think the ability to go, ⁓ well, would triple it? And if you know what ⁓ would it, then great, go for it. If you ⁓ know stopping you tripling it, then ⁓ change even if that's uncomfortable. ⁓ If don't want to triple it, then ⁓ maybe not the person to continue scaling it. And that ⁓ might equally uncomfortable, but you know, understanding ⁓ do you continue to be ambitious for that business, I think, is ⁓ really. Ollie: Yeah. I like this idea of tripling. our CFO always says, you know, you're allowed to bring three strategic bets into the board meeting, but you have to leave choosing which one ⁓ you're going with. those things, they're things. It's like internationalizing or, you know, expanding into a different capability. ⁓ I'd love to know, you think back to a single strategic bet that you were all aligned on that had the biggest impact to your growth? Natalie: There's a number different ones. I think definitely the States, ⁓ obviously. ⁓ But I also think our design capability, ⁓ that's always been core to what we've been right from the start, Nil's background as he was a designer, we've always had an appreciation for that. But I think properly understanding what it was like to be a design front door, not just an advertising agency. think from recognizing that from the start, I'm not sure there was a particular moment as such, but there was always an ambition that that's what we wanted to do. ⁓ able to, with that ambition, then hire accordingly and say, okay, well, if we're going to do that, it's not just something that's at the tail end or at the beginning of what we're selling in terms of advertising. It is its own fully front door, full capability, and backing our bets on hiring some exceptional talent like Lisa Smith over in the States. think that definitely us feel ⁓ we can go properly into all of those sorts of conversations. got our head held high and winning some brilliant opportunities at the moment, which is great. Ollie: I get this sense that it's like all in. There's no sort of like half arsing strategic bet. cause you could have, and without throwing shade ⁓ agencies taking on design, it's of the most common briefs that we have, know, advertising agencies that said they wanted to start to do more design, but they would look at it as if it was a bolt on. Capability I mean, if you look at a branding agency and how it works, there is an entirely different system, pace, margin, like everything is entirely different. And also at the same time, internationalizing as well. I mean, I can say that we're, you know, until we've taken some kind of investment, it is hard to not half ass it because you're like 401k, higher salaries, like it's a huge bet to make. Natalie: yes. Ollie: There must be a very clear alignment in three of your minds because it would be very easy to half-ass all of those things and go, okay, look, we'll dip our toe into the US and if we get some grease, we'll service it from London and we'll keep on doing that until we've made enough money to then go over there. Whereas I imagine there would have been a time where the money might not have made sense in design or in ⁓ but you've had the fund. ⁓ Natalie: All the time. All the time. Look, think the key to it is that we're never just placing everything on one bet and maybe that sounds even more terrifying, but we've always got one or two bets going on, more than one or two bets going on, and then hopefully one or two of those will come through. So we're always placing multiple different bets as to the sorts of places we think we can go. And key to that is obviously being a studio in the first place, so there aren't any walls other than ones we create ourselves as to where we can take things. So we will. hire the very best talent and then give them the freedom, not just the perception of freedom, to be able to build something. And sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't, but I think most of the time once you've hired brilliant people, you continue to back them, it ends up being a success. So we're often growing on many fronts, which is why I struggled to answer your question about one. And sometimes all at once, but that doesn't come down to just Nils, Lucy and I. It is about Ollie: Ha ha ha. Hmm. Natalie: making sure we've got a wider crew who can equally run with the charge. Ollie: What's a bet now? Have you got any major bet that you're backing the most? Natalie: that would be telling. We've got a few, we've got a few. Look I think we've got phenomenal data capabilities which are Ollie: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Natalie: really supporting all of our strategic work, which is ⁓ On PR ⁓ culture and influence ⁓ is just putting not just a name, but actually some proper credibility, proper front door behind what we've always done, which is all of the work we do always has fame baked in. ⁓ So that's very exciting. ⁓ We're building out more into experiences ⁓ and from and experiences team getting into ⁓ experience design. ⁓ Ollie: interesting. Natalie: So actual retail spaces and ⁓ So yeah, there's a number of different bets and who knows which one may even move into architecture. Nils has always had a desire to get into that world as well. But yeah, I think it's about many, ⁓ bets. Ollie: Yeah, it's funny that that's definitely the area we can see growing the most. Weirdly, actually, all three of those areas of brand consultancy, more sort of higher up the ⁓ consultancy ladder, if you like. And then at the other end, influencer and social. seems to be like these two parts are scaling again. The margins for the work seems to be better than in the middle. And then experience, experiential, but also like the permanence of experience as well. Like. Can you build industrial fixtures that don't just last for a campaign? It's an always-on kind of thing. And again, that's where we can start to see the convergence between experiential and architecture. there's this really interesting IP that's coming together where they're backing ⁓ experiences that last 10 years, 10 weeks. And in that you need different, I'm sure even those would probably say the school of Athens kind of people who are, you know, as good as it gets when it comes to that kind of level of design. Data is an interesting one. When you see your data capabilities, how does that happen? Where do you get data capabilities from? Is that like in the tools that you're using or is that in the IP that you're building internally? How does that work? Natalie: got a phenomenal crew and then we've built some proprietary tools. being able to... Yeah, essentially get some off the shelf tools, but then how we analyze it specifically helps. And then also we've got, we've always had a strategic operating system ⁓ Lucy originally built when we, when we started being able to essentially layer in our CX capability, which we do as well. And then the data capability as well. It's just, it's just elevating everything. And it just, ⁓ just, mean, AI definitely helps in that instance as well. Cause you're ending up being able to use ⁓ AI and the data analytics tools to really really help surface far more nuanced, smaller communities that we kind of instinctively knew were out there, but actually being able to put some rigor around it as well is really, really, really exciting. Ollie: and AI, I have to do it, sorry, Nat, but it's come up, it's a segue. can point to one thing, ⁓ maybe ⁓ or but one thing that AI has done hugely change Uncommon versus like all the stuff, like everyone's got AI listening and things like that. Is there a part where you've been quite surprised? Natalie: I'm not sure there's anything that surprised me as such, but I think there's lot of chat about taste, obviously. But I'm quite excited because we've always backed senior talent and we've always brought in senior talent. I'm that this a return to people actually valuing experience ⁓ and talented senior people. And we've always had them in our crew, but I think, you know, that idea of ⁓ the fact that you only to taste is potentially because you've got a bunch of experience, ⁓ that curation role is gonna be critical. And so that that seniority of talent is gonna be really quite key. ⁓ So I'm not sure if that's necessarily a surprise, but for me, it's definitely a natural progression from the fact that everyone's talking about the importance of taste, which I agree with. Ollie: Yeah, it's kind of affirming, isn't it? think everyone that we've spoken to about AI seems to say that it helps you get to the mean average quicker. The mean average isn't where the work's going to be. It kind of gives you the undercurrent of, OK, cool, that's what the average thing is that's out there. Now, how do we make that the least average thing that we can make? But I've not heard. Natalie: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Ollie: A couple of people potentially in branding have said that it's helped with things like pitch decks and like mocking up ideas really quickly without having to waste the designer's time or whatever, which I can imagine is really helpful if you're pitching a lot. Cool. You can visualize the idea quickly with a client. The client can go, okay, that's AI. I can see that, but thanks. I now have a good visual understanding of the idea. But other than that, I've not heard a huge, I've heard a great deal of like executionally impactful AI. Natalie: No, think from that point of view, it's brilliant in production and it can definitely help. with personalization and scaling the amount of content that we're able to produce. that's to a penny now. That's what we do across the board. I think executionally, ultimately, as you say, if you just let AI do it, then you will get what's already expected. It's what's already out there, right? It can only surface what's already exist. And so those leaps, so I think the people come to Uncommon For require human and intervention and for us to use AI as a tool. So I would even stop short of seeing any sort of AI just show up in a pitch deck. Just because we're pitching lots and we can doesn't mean to say that we should be showing that as our product. Ultimately, it needs some level of curation and craft and ideas. yeah, I mean, guess behind the scenes, the thing you wouldn't see, we're using AI a lot in our operations. So this might surprise Ollie: Yeah. Natalie: and given we're talking about capitalism and what have you and capital, way that we run ⁓ revenue and our resourcing is a daily review. ⁓ we have done that all the way through. We don't do ⁓ and resourcing matching up ⁓ you know, looking at the past month. We do it on a daily basis. And we've always done that because that's how we work. And now with AI, it's a lot less manual and a lot ⁓ analysis then surfaced so it means that the same team who have been doing that analysis are now freer to be able to through on the consequences of that analysis rather than having do it all manually so ⁓ that surprise you ⁓ know it's not that's the system you build ⁓ Ollie: That is quite surprising. Every day. That's a lot. Natalie: And we're project-based in a lot of instances. We're a studio, so it's quite fluid. Ollie: I'm hearing now why we say studio, not an agency or not a consultancy. there's like a more fluid approach to running a business if you're acting in that way. And if it is a studio, would have, I'm thinking of a literal, my dad used to have a studio and it was mad and hectic, but there was a system in place that system would stay the same, but the variable thing would be who's doing what on what day and why. And it sounds like, yeah, that's kind of baked into what you guys are doing. Natalie: Mm-hmm. Ollie: I want to move into, before we go into your predictions, one last question just on agency life or sorry, studio life, I should say. And that is if you were starting an agency or a studio, what would be different today versus 2018, which is I believe when you started. Natalie: Well, I ⁓ start an agency, I'd start a studio, you've already preempted that one. I mean, I don't think I'd change anything massively, but I think there's more tools available to us these days. And I think certainly with the advent of creators, I would make sure we creating a creative studio that had editorial, creators, ⁓ experiences, design, the ability to actually make and then ⁓ brands in order to leverage some of the things that we were making. ⁓ kind of making sure that it's definitely brand is absolutely part of it, but ⁓ it's partnership. on the things that we are already making for ourselves as well as going out and independently creating things ourselves. yeah. ⁓ Ollie: How would that look? Would that be like kind of, I imagine like you have this talent arm, know, famous people that ⁓ perhaps they're influencers you know, they've got their own following. Would you, would it be like a case of doing a joint venture with a creator and a brand that you would back or that kind of, yeah, okay. Interesting. Yeah. Natalie: Possibly. Yeah, I mean, look, at the moment, we've got our fourth feature in production at the moment with some A-list talent. We did work in Venice Biennale the other month. We're doing quite a lot of this stuff anyway. So yeah, it wouldn't be a huge shift, but I just would have started that sooner, ⁓ which is, you know, said the done. Ollie: OK, amazing. I want to move into your predictions, which I'm hoping. I'm looking at a blank page in front of me with our Google Sheets. So I'm really hoping that there are some here. But let's move into it. Natalie Graham, what are your three predictions for the creative economy? Natalie: So there are some, don't worry. One, I think there'll probably be a bifurcation in agencies that just produce advertising at scale and those who can really shift the business fortunes through creativity. And by the way, the latter can also produce content at scale. So firstly, I think there'll be a bifurcation in those agencies that produce advertising at scale and agencies can really shift business fortunes through creativity. ⁓ using more different tools. And obviously the latter can still produce content at scale. It's just that think that agencies that are fundamentally built to be able to produce content at scale are missing the creativity that it takes and the value of creativity to really shift businesses. Ollie: Yeah. Part of me goes, ⁓ are these people on side more business minded or commercially minded to enable themselves to do that ⁓ versus the other side more traditional in the way that they're producing work? Natalie: Possibly. mean, think ultimately if you... We're seeing it already, aren't we? A lot of, a lot of the larger agencies removing creative talent because a lot of it can be produced through AI. And so ⁓ they are servicing quite needs from clients, ⁓ but are doing it with less creative talent because the to be able to produce that content at scale are, don't require it. Ultimately you end up with a hollowed out for wanted the better phrase, version of creative department and the creative understanding it requires to produce that content at scale versus ⁓ companies value creativity and value to make proper business shifts. And I think ultimately there will probably two different camps. ⁓ Ollie: Okay, I'm clear on that one. Okay. Thank you number two ⁓ Natalie: ⁓ I think we've already talked about it a little bit, but rise of experience, don't know, that's prediction, but... Ultimately, I'm seeing a lot of experiences coming back and lot of experiential ⁓ companies doing brilliantly. They obviously took hammering in COVID. ⁓ so ⁓ the rise of the experience company again, I think. ⁓ then the third one would be finally the death knell for time materials. ⁓ Our system for valuing ideas. ⁓ not something I've ever been massive fan of. We've always tried lots of different models for how our expertise and our partnerships are valued with clients. ultimately, don't think AI essentially means that it's going to become incredibly hard to benchmark rates against each other, because all rates will be a blend of talent plus tech. Everyone's tech stack is different, and everyone's use of that tech stack and approach will be different. Ollie: Yeah. Natalie: it hopefully will now mean a more transparent and open conversation with procurement teams about how best to value what it is we do for our brand partners. Ollie: Do you see openness on that? I think that's a really good one. I think some of the newer agencies now are coming out and saying, every conversation is a business conversation to figure out where do you sit on, in a way, it's like a scale of risk. If we go one end is the least risky, which is time and materials, and then we're moving into outcome-based pricing and you know. growth based pricing, the next being more, I guess, ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ even like IP things. Yeah, rev share. Yeah, exactly. And then I guess like on the right is probably, I guess, put joint venture probably the riskiest where it's I've been taking equity in the thing, because you have no control over whether a world war happens, whether you know, the supply chain breaks or anything that happens in that way. ⁓ in a way, I kind of see like a barometer of risk and ⁓ Natalie: up to the studio, right down to the studio. Ollie: the best agencies kind of having almost like ⁓ a venture capital portfolio, like high risk. Maybe we have 10 or 15 % in the high risk JVs, but the bulk of the stuff we're doing is a productized version of what was the timing materials model. Can you see, if you looked at Uncommons ⁓ barometer of, would that be how it would look or would there be even more to add to that list? Natalie: I think it is that spread and it has been since day one to be honest. We've always tried. different models that work for our clients and ⁓ the appetite for risk on both sides. And I think, you when we look at some of our startups or scale ups we've worked with in the past, sometimes that's been far more equity led conversation, sometimes it's been rev share. ⁓ So yeah, you're fully in the boat with each other, but the balance of risk is obviously potentially far smaller, but the upside is potentially far bigger. So we've done a bit of everything really, and we still do have some relationships where it's a blend. So it might be a bit of rev share, a bit of performance by results, so outcome based pricing, some that's output pricing as well. So yeah, it's a real mix. Ollie: Yeah. It's hard to value that kind of business though as well. you probably won't see a WPP or a larger holding company making these kinds of deals because they're reporting to Wall Street on a quarterly basis. How do you take a rev, well not even rev share, how do you take a joint venture that's probably a 10 year bet down the line to Wall Street and saying like, oh, it's fine. Like, you know, it's going to be hugely valuable in about 10 years time. It's just, it's hard to imagine that again, I think this is probably the biggest opportunity Natalie: Mm-hmm. Ollie: for independently run businesses to take longer bets on their financial modeling without the pressure of the Wall Street thing. last thing and I will let you go this. ⁓ quote, ⁓ is the one quote that has guided your life ⁓ even just guided your life in the last few months? could be a long standing quote, it could be a most recent quote. Natalie: I'm not sure I've got an exact quote. mean, ultimately I've got a bit of a chip on my shoulder. I'm not entirely sure where that came from. I mean, maybe my quote should be queen of no, but I might have a little. Look, I think I've always had a chip on my shoulder. so other people's underestimation of me is my appeal. But I think Serena Williams did have a quote. I tried to find one that kind of. Ollie: You Yeah. Natalie: really captured it but I'm not sure if there is one. Ollie: I've got it. I think what if you said you say chip on your shoulder like it's a bad thing. That could be your that could be your t-shirt slogan. Because it's true. mean, I'm kind of I feel similar to that in the sense of like, anybody that has arrived versus someone that is constantly becoming ⁓ I always find they're least ⁓ enjoyable person to be Natalie: No! Ollie: Because the chip's gone, the chip's kind of filled up and they're very, I think content is the wrong word. You almost get the sense of like, I don't know, they're not going anywhere. They're kind of, they won't accept any new opinions. They won't accept they're wrong. There's kind of, I think the chip is what you need. If you haven't got a chip, then you're just this perfect being that everyone hates. ⁓ Natalie: I'll take that, I'll take that. Bing. Ollie: I love that. Well, Nat thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a pure pleasure. And I can't wait for this to go live. There's been lots of gems in here. Thank you. Natalie: Thank you, speak to you soon.