Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #97 – AI Visibility, Reviews, and the Future of Law Firm Marketing with Tanner Jone

Transcript

#97 – AI Visibility, Reviews, and the Future of Law Firm Marketing with Tanner Jone · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: A future digital age of referrals is coming to someone's pocket near them,
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: reaching in,
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: pulling out their phone and pulling up their Claude app or their ChatGPT app.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: In today's world of just tons of competition,
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: one of the best ways to differentiate yourself is to show who you are.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: The more that you can lean into that and truly showcase the personality of the firm, the better.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: You are listening to Sharp Strategies Sweet Success.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're listening to Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Tiffany Swedensky.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: And today we're talking with Tanner Jones of ConsultWebs.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: So happy to have Tanner here on the podcast.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Him and I have met, I think at several different events and definitely on social media.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a kind of a small world in legal marketing.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll let him go ahead and finish out his introduction.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you first and foremost, Tiffany.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoyed the chance to jump on this when you extended the invitation.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: So grateful for that.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: I have a ton of respect for you and the work you're doing
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: and just very intimately aware of just the power of your skill set,
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: somebody coming in and being able I'm Tanner Jones.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: I just started my 18th year in this industry earlier this month.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just crazy to me.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: We've definitely observed a lot of change in the
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my background.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: ConsultWeb helps law firms exclusively with their digital marketing efforts.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: So search marketing,
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: AI visibility, digital advertising, social media, video, and everything in between.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: The devil on my shoulder is like,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: if I'm just going to ask one question,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know every audience member wants to hear is how do you rank in AI search?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm sure you're just like the rest of us that are kind of piecing together the answer.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So my first question is actually going to be over that almost 20 year career,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: what would you say were the top three have been like the biggest challenges
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: that you've seen in this industry?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good question.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I would say one of the biggest challenges is shiny object syndrome.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that somewhat tongue in cheek,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: but there are a lot of law firms out there that hear pitches on a weekly basis
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: on how something or someone will transfer.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: think that's probably way more general than just digital.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, business owners have a sea of decisions to make, and it's easy to do.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, Tiffany,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say that's probably one of the biggest things I've seen repeated time
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: and time again over the years is just chasing after the next quick thing
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: that seems great.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody else is doing it.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's early.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I would encourage law firms on the counter of that to, again,
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: make longer term decisions,
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: ask questions that result in how is my reputation going to be impacted from this?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I would lead to the second piece is not enough law firms.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's a challenge for a lot of law firms.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of attorneys are somewhat,
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: they may be bullish in the courtroom,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: strong personalities,
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: but the thought of having to sit in front of a camera and shoot video
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: and record content is such a drain to a lot of personalities.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so that challenge or that limitation has prevented a lot of attorneys
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: from truly showcasing their authenticity.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: In today's world of just tons of competition,
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: one of the best ways to differentiate yourself is to show who you are.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: How do you sound?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big thing on people make decisions based on emotion,
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: and then they back it up with logic.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the more that you can lean into that and truly showcase the personality
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: the firm, the better.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: A third challenge,
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: hopefully you don't give me a long list of,
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: this may be grueling for both of us, but...
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Third challenge over the last couple of decades,
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: I may borrow from the second piece on the reputation,
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: but there's a lot that goes into reputation.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Today, it matters a lot for AI visibility, as you've already referenced.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so reviews.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Reviews are powerful, not neglected.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And well, okay, hold on.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of blanked out on myself,
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: but I was thinking about their review piece really recently,
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: because if you think back to when I was a kid in the 90s,
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: how do you know which restaurants were the best in town?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because we didn't really have Google reviews back then.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: The only thing I could land on is word of mouth.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you just talk to somebody.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, do you like Pizza Hut or Domino's?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, well, Pizza Hut is really on fire, you know, the last few weeks.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And marketing was different back then because you could say something about yourself
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: and it be true.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: But now you have reviews and testimonials being so visible
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: that it doesn't matter really what you say about yourself when you're Yeah,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: absolutely.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Probably similar to you,
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Tiffany,
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen the full spectrum of some firms just have it and they're able
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: to get tremendous velocity on reviews,
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: positive reviews and sustain that on an ongoing basis
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: while others seemingly are asking and struggling.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, they should ideally find someone within the process.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: But that is where it starts.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Fundamentally, accountability.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know you know this from a fractional CMO perspective
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: that accountability is everything because you can have so much going on,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: but at the end of the day,
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: who's actually owning this specific key point indicator or whatever that metric is.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: The next piece, I found some really creative.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'll speak to one in particular.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's very simple, very elementary, but very effective.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: But before I get to that, there's software available.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: That should be being used by your firm at minimum.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I would not say that that is the best ideal.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: But it is a minimum because if no one's asking for it,
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: you're certainly not going to get proactive reviews.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: That type of software allows you to be able to text message as long
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: as you've received appropriate consent from those clients.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can also email.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be on a drip system until they've actually taken the time to leave
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: the public review.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that's as simple as being able to get that contact in the system,
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: hit submit, and let the system do its thing.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: At minimum, every firm should do that.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: The next piece would be the manual effort.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's important that if you're going to implement a process
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: to proactively grow reviews,
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: read through Google's review policy to explicitly read it from them and not read it
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: from them.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I've seen lawyers be very successful at being able to,
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: when they are dispersing checks with clients,
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: bringing them in to the law firm,
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: sitting down with them and being able to pat them on the back,
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: thank them for being a client.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Tell them that you've got the check available.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: In the meantime, here's a swag room.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Feel welcome to enjoy whatever you'd like from the office.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if you'd like with the iPad kiosk, please take time to leave a review.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you walk out and you leave them and you give them time.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the concept of reciprocity is a powerful thing.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so even just leaning on other creative angles of reciprocity of being able
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: to treat a client well and encourage the benefit of a review and what it does
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: for your business,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: you'll find success if, again,
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: you have the right accountability within your office who is And that's
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: where you also see a lot of law firms somewhat challenge themselves or challenge
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: the future
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: I need to bring it back to kind of what you do in ConsultWebs
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: and my original teaser question, which is like AI visibility.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And well, I have a bunch of questions.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of questions in this space personally,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: but one, how the heck are we supposed to track AI visibility?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: I look in Ahrefs and they have those AI overviews and that number,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: but you and I have been in the business for a long time.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's just kind of looks exactly the feature snippet information we used to get in the day.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: What should we be looking at?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: How does a law firm know if they're ranking well in AI and for ChatGPT and these AI tools?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is a very important topic for law firms who are hungry to increase their visibility.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Today, it's the concept of SEO as we've once known it.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Search engine optimization is arguably search everywhere optimization today.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: It includes large language models like ChatGPT,
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Claude, Perplexity, Gemini, the list goes on and on.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: But the tracking is complex and Google ranking tracking has been complex historically.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'll spend just a moment there and then we can get in the LLM visibility like Claude.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: And ChatGPT tracking.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: But with Google,
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: when you actually look at the amount of traffic that you're getting,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: historically, we had a lot more access to user data than we do today.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Google's continued to strip away what the marketer can see through Google Analytics
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: and Google Search Console.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: But even still,
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: the data suggests that there is a wide range of search queries being used for people
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: to find you.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just a singular,
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: these particular five search terms that are driving the bulk of traffic.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: In many instances, if you're getting thousands of visitors
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I bring that up because it just illustrates the complexity.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Historically,
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: if you're only tracking 50 search terms,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: the most commonly used search terms in your area, like car accident, lawyer, and
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're still only getting a picture of your search visibility.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: It should be seen as an indicator,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: as a way to illustrate trajectory and performance over time,
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: but it should always come back That
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: is truly the best way from month to month
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: to consistently evaluate performance of your overall marketing
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: and overall trajectory.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: ConsultWebs,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: as well as some other groups out there,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: we've built a specific platform to track your AI rankings.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: We actually have a free tool online.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you just Google search ConsultWebs AI Visibility Tracker, you'll be able to find it.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you can enter.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: It'll give you a few prompts.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it'll read your website,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: determine where your relevance lies,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: your geo, where you're located, as well as your practice area.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it'll propose a number of prompts.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can adjust those prompts as you wish.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: There are five specific prompts.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it'll show you where you're showing up in Claude, Perplexity, ChatGPT, and Gemini.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: It'll show you across all of those different prompts,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: again, alongside who your top competitors are that are showing up.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so that alone is tremendous insight into And as a marketer,
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: knowing where your gaps lies first and foremost to develop strategy around it.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that being said, you can use tools like that, Tiffany, to be able to assess the gaps.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also a lot of ongoing optimization and assessment,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: just like we've done I've done with search engine optimization campaigns for years
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: where you do competitive gaps if you're doing a prompt in Claude and you're looking
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: for who are the top personal injury litigation law firms in Las Vegas, for example.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Claude, ChatGPT, these platforms are going to deliver several options.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll be able to see where those are being cited.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Are they actually citing the law firm's website or are they pulling from
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: a Justia profile or an Avvo profile?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what we're doing is reverse engineering.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Why are those particular websites, those law firms being recommended?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's because of these trusted entities that are signing them.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Our objective is to then go in and be able to build out a robust profile set
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: if it is the profiles that are in fact being cited.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it is part of being able to look at visibility and rankings and
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: then ultimately building strategy around the gaps.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned gap analysis.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: One of the questions I was going to ask you is like,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: what content should law firms be writing for their site?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what should they be making in-house?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: What should...
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: They'd be looking for in their SEO companies content.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: What are we looking at that matters today?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let me get in the weeds with you a bit.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Google came out with a framework of EAT.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you've heard that ad nauseum over the years.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: But the acronym EAT, Experience, Authority, Trust, they later added in expertise.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's E-E-A-T now.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Experience.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: A number of things here.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just work through a list.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: When it comes to experience.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Think about the obvious things,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: your verdicts,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: settlements,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: anything obviously that's not confidential that you can list publicly,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: ideally is represented on the website to tell that story.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you can include the amounts, the settlement amounts, that's great.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: List those in the dollar figure and the case type itself,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: like 2.4 million trucking settlement, trucking verdict.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's anonymized, list anonymized.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: But what it does is it tells a story of prior experience.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can also get into total number of trials, depending on how you're positioning your law firm.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a litigation firm and you want to showcase your trial experience,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: showcase the For firms that really want to get involved,
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know, those are easy to hand off and allow a marketer to
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: What insurance defense strategies were implemented that you overcame in that case?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: What challenges maybe with the client did you have?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that ultimately tells how you've overcome challenges and really speaks
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: to your specific practice area case type experience.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so make sure that your firm,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: your website is welcoming and introducing those individuals that have
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: the experience.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Anything else beyond that from a content perspective?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: The more localized the content is, the better.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so like being able to build in specific courts,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: maybe even judges,
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: any various county quirks that may be in place that you've encountered
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: within your specific practice area.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Those types of elements, AI is not able to replicate.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to competition who may be using AI to produce content,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: these are the small differentiators that add up that help to distance you in
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: the AI race of gaining visibility.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can't not stress enough the power of video,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: especially short form video,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: especially covering commonly asked questions that your clients are asking on
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: that initial intake and throughout the life of the case.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Developing short form video content around that is a tremendous marketing tool for you.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it helps to convert,
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: but it also helps to feed the search engines and AI as you being the expert.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'll stop there and ask before I move,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: keep moving,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: because I think there are several other practical ways,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm just curious,
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: any of that resonate with you or any questions on that concept of experience?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I 100% aligned with you.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was just wondering to myself, why do I feel this advice falls flat?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because when we're talking about how do we make unique content
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: that AI can't replicate,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: that's going to enhance our EEAT,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell a law firm,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Write case results, write about the community marketing that you're doing.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: It seems to me,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: and maybe I'm just reading into this,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: that people are really disappointed with that advice and they're looking
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: for something else.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: They want that shiny object, right?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: If they don't have these elements within their website, No one else is.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And also,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's some element of writing truly unique pieces for
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: a law firm is difficult.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: It truly is.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas it's pretty easy to write like an FAQ on any topic,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: particularly today with Chachi BT that that used to be hard.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's very, very easy.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just something I struggle with because you do need somebody who's kind
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: of in the firm and understands the firm,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: their core values, understands what they're doing.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And can communicate effectively about it.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of writing that marketing has to do.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I have an ax to grind.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, it seems like that's also some advice that falls flat.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, hire a writer.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, hmm.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's not as takes effort.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: It takes intentionality.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like anything else, and many attorneys, I mean, we encounter it every single day.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's only so much time in the day.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And when we talk about doing video content or joining podcasts
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: and showcasing subject matter expertise,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: those are all worthwhile things,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: but you ultimately have to wait And I would tell you
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: that these things are actively moving the needle on AI visibility.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why for us working with clients,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: we can expect,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: I would say less than 2% of our clients are actually running with this type
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: of service.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: We have to go extract it and pull it out.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: But that still requires the firm,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: just as you said,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: for that culture piece and the true DNA and identity of the law firm
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: to be represented in that copy.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: They have to have some level of involvement in review and speaking into it.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of stuff in marketing that doesn't seem like it would move the needle,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: but absolutely does.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Case results are a good example of that.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Posting on LinkedIn is a good example of that.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't seem important in the moment,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: but over time, These kind of activities build up to results.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it comes down to systems.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Going back to video,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: honestly,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: maybe this is therapy for me because it's kind of like,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, you do have to extract content from the law firms.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: That makes it so hard to generate These marketing pieces that are about the stuff
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: that only the attorneys are working on or only the case assistants are working on.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's unfortunate it's that way.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's unfortunate that there are so many lawyers I talk to who want
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: to do more marketing and want to do better marketing and sometimes want
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: to do it themselves.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And when I say, OK, can you do a write up on your most recent case result?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what it looks like.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what it means.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like nothing.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so frustrating.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I have a question there, but it's just part of the deal.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: I read a stat recently that I may be off base on this,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: but it was I think it was suggesting less than 33 percent
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: of attorneys have actually taken time to produce video content.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: That seems actually a high number to me across the board.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: But to me, that presents.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: As a marketer,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: unbelievable opportunity for the firms who are willing to do it
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: and not just test it out,
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: but to the point of anything that's worth enduring,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: like word of mouth relationships are built.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: They're earned.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're not just immediate.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much in marketing that you have to commit to.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this podcast, I mean,
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: my podcast,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't usually talk this much on my own show,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: but for the first three months was just absolute trash.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I hate it when those clips show up in my stories and memories.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: But now today at this podcast,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm bragging a bit,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'll have guests tell me,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: I got somebody heard about me on your podcast and they're a new client or something
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: to that effect.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, wow, this show has gotten traction.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: We should make more money for me.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: But we're doing something here.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: I have listeners and that's nice.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: I would not have known that I wouldn't be here on the show.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: You wouldn't be here on the show if I gave up on it when it was still garbage
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: and we were figuring it out.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: You have to.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And most quit.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, most are failing in the first five years.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're not willing for the most part to endure the suck and embracing
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: that period, that season.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: So kudos to you.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: I would say kudos to all the listeners who are willing to keep enduring.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's worth it.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's really you guys who bring this on.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I usually get that hooky.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm trying to think of it because I have so many questions when it comes to SEO
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: because so much is different.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: I guess for you specifically to SEO, what's something that law firms are still doing?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: What's something they're doing they shouldn't be?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: What's something they should be doing but aren't?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think content is one of those constantly evolving strategies,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: especially when it comes to, so again, we've been doing this for quite some time.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen a lot of changes in Google's algorithm.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Google, when they decide they want to make an algorithm update,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: they don't come and ask consult webs, can we do this?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're rolling these algorithm updates.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And in many instances, they're massive, they're wide sweeping.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like in some instances,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: you may get caught up in some of those and have to reverse engineer what caused
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: the drop.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: In a lot of instances,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: content has been the big driver in terms of what's caused such volatility
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: for law firms,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: partly because there are some firms still continuing to invest in just AI slop
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: and just pushing a bunch of pages on their site with no real architecture strategy
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: with the content and no real intentionality
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: about uniquely developing content like we've talked about.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: In which case they're going to get themselves in algorithmic trouble because
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: when you start doing that and you're essentially,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: sorry for my language,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: vomiting content all over the website,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: what we're finding is that you begin to run into page overlaps,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: topical overlaps with content.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it forces Google to have to determine which page is most relevant for which search query.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And in many instances,
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Google will get it wrong if they're having a ton of pages to consider when it comes
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: to commercial truck accidents.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you have 75 pages on your site that reference commercial truck accidents,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: which page do you truly want ranking for that big query?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big common issue with firms that are just thinking they need to hit a quota
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: on content as opposed to being much more intentional about going
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's definitely one area.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think blogging is one of those.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's an easy way for certain agencies to illustrate effort.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And value.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And in many instances, it's not actually moving the needle in any respect.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's just showing that the client is receiving something on a weekly or monthly basis.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I would tell you to caution your just blogging to be blogging
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: or just writing content
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: to be writing content.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: The next question was something they should be doing more of.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to borrow back to the video piece.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's something anybody can do.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: You and I are sitting here on very inexpensive production equipment.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, let's be real.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Anybody can do this.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Good lighting.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Audio matters more than the actual look of the video,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: but if you get that right and you're willing to spend time talking
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: about what you do,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: what you know,
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: your subject matter expertise,
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: and really being intentional about speaking directly to Don't give up
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: after six months.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Give it at least a year because just like word of mouth,
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: it takes time to really grow and produce fruit and you don't want to leave
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: before you've been able to realize the full effect of that effort.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the honest truth is like a lot of this stuff is boring and people have
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: the perception that marketing should feel exciting.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I can speak to a lot of the day to day work is really just like any other work,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: kind of a drag.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so like, yeah, you'll get bored of making I don't know.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Those are
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: rare,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: but they are great.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that certain personalities who are not that,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: they use that as an excuse and say, well, they're just built for that.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're made for that.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's not me.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say I was not made for video either.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's repetition.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting comfortable with Yeah.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Distracted driving, whatever it may be.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you record a piece of content,
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: maybe speaking to a specific client,
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: a case type you've dealt with, and it's a one minute long video.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's put on YouTube.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's being read, number two search engine in the world, being picked up.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: The ability to reach that nuanced client in that moment is unparalleled.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so again, that's not mass media.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need 50,000 views on that video.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: You need the right view or the right views.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: That creates, it's less daunting when you think about it from that perspective.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And every video you produce is another line in the water that sits as an evergreen asset.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I can speak to that and I wish I wasn't talking about myself so much.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I have like so much content and all I do is interview people.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Good people like you, people and talk about marketing and discuss this stuff.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just an endless,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: basically, it could be an endless stream of content if I utilized it better.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes my clients get more of me than I give my own business.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, there's so much to say there.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: It is such a struggle.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: I guess like we're running up on time though.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I got to start closing up my questions.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about this at first.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: I sometimes ask this, sometimes don't.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: But what's a topic that you wanted to talk about today that we didn't get to?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: We've covered some great topics.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: I would end with,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: I actually saw you at the PILMA conference earlier this year,
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: and the presentation I gave was the end of law firm referrals as we know them.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, that's a dramatic title, I recognize.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: But law firms have built their practices.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: No doubt.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: The concept,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: the transaction of the referral,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: the process of the referral is evolving in a digital landscape.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so ultimately,
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: that's what I would implore any of your listeners to recognize
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: if they have seen word of mouth and referrals do well for their business,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: and it's produced 50-60% of their business over the years.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I would hope that that continues.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Future digital age of referrals is coming to someone's pocket near them,
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: reaching in,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: pulling out their phone and pulling up their Claude app or their ChatGPT app.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they're doing detailed prompts, asking questions, the same questions they would.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would have asked their cousin or their family member,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: and they're getting immediate direct options.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: As business owners,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: we have to recognize that change and do everything we can to stay ahead of that so
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: that we can maintain visibility.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And naturally,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: that's the end goal for any marketing is just to increase
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: as much visibility I
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: do have,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to keep you if you don't have enough time,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: but I do have like one other question because you brought it to my mind.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm talking to a lot of clients about this idea that people search for attorneys.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: They don't necessarily search for law firms.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's varying degrees of true,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: but lawyer and attorney are the search terms that we most often see.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that attorneys have had,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: us marketers have had this mindset, we're
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: marketing the firm.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And now with AI and updating all these legal directories,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: which has become key strategy in AI visibility for a lot of people,
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: are we really marketing the firm?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Are we marketing the attorney?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: What should we be focusing on here?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because to some degree, it's evolving in and of itself.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Historically or traditionally,
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: marketing the brand, the law firm brand, has been the King Kong effort.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's tied to your Google business profile.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, your website is representing your brand.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have your individual attorneys within the website.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, today in the world of more directories being revalued,
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: directories have kind of had some comings and goings with their popularity over
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: the years.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Today, they're very important.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: They're very popular.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And there's opportunity to not only have brand profiles.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: But you can also have attorney profiles and attorney profiles matter a lot in that respect.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would say it's of equal importance today.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: The individual attorney should absolutely be out there illustrating their subject
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: matter expertise.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you can do that on your website if you are editing and approving certain pages,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: practice area pages on your site.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Make note of that within the page,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: edited and reviewed by, and then linking over to the individual attorney's bio.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Being able to tie the authorship is available.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Very valuable effort from being able to illustrate subject matter expertise
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: to your individual attorneys.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: In some instances,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen attorneys create their own Google business profiles and go get reviews
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: for their own personal representations.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's more exposure.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's more lines in the water.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're not getting crossed over because they are separate entities.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's a law firm and then there's the individual attorney.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so any way the attorney can further establish their legitimate credentials,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: they should be pushing out.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so to that degree, that should be the hub for the law firm.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to spread yourself to where if you have attorneys asking,
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Should we create our own individual websites and things like that?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: I would not go to that extent unless you have significant budget to be able
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: to support that many assets running.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I do want to clarify that point.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: But the main website definitely is going to be the powerhouse brand entity as well
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: as the ability to showcase the individual attorneys.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's a whole business probably in making microsites just for the attorney.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it's on the horizon.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for being on the show and talking with me today.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Where would you like people to look you up and learn more about you?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: You can check me out on LinkedIn,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Tanner Jones at ConsultWebs or simply go to our website, consultwebs.com.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: And Tiffany, thank you again.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Grateful for the opportunity.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad to have you on the Shiloh.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: I love talking with people about marketing.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's what we do.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks everyone for listening and we will see everyone next time.