Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Holiday Conflict Reduction
Transcript
- Megan Hunter: Welcome to It's All Your Fault on TruStory FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most damaging humans, people with high conflict personalities. Megan Hunter: I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, Bill Eddy. Bill Eddy: Hi everybody. Megan Hunter: And we're the co-founders of The High Conflict Institute, based in San Diego, California. In today's episode, we are going to talk about holiday conflict, but first we have a few quick reminders. Here's the deal, we want to hear from you. Have you dealt with the high conflict situation, been blamed, experienced violence or abuse from an HCP? Or maybe you simply dread seeing that person again, but you probably have to tonight at home or tomorrow at work. Send us your questions and we just might discuss them on the show. You can submit them by clicking the "Submit a question" button at our website, highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. Emailing us at podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or dropping us a note on any of our socials. Megan Hunter: You can find all the show notes and links at highconflictinstitute.com/podcast as well. Make sure you subscribe, rate and review, and please tell all your friends about us. Telling just one person that you like the show and where they can find it is the best way you can help us out and help more people learn how to address high conflict people. We appreciate you so very much. And now, on with the show. Megan Hunter: Today, we are going to talk about holiday conflict. The kind that happens with that special someone at the holiday gathering, the family gathering, the Christmas party, the New Year's Eve party, whatever the case may be. We look at holidays this wonderful time to get together and do fabulous things together as a family, or even at the Christmas party, but it could often be a big source of conflict as you probably know. So what do we do about it? How can we prepare for it? Do we just avoid conflict altogether? Do we avoid family gatherings? Or how can we manage it together? So that's where we'll start today. Megan Hunter: Bill, you and I talked a little bit about the two kind of categories of conflict during the holidays, the first being really a true source of conflict, like having friends and family over for a gathering. Bill Eddy: Well, I think with that, what we're looking at, first of all, is good preparation. So if you're having people over that you've kind of prepare, first of all, who you're inviting, and think back, there may be certain key people that you might not want to invite based on behavior at prior events. But if you can't not invite them, then the second thought is thinking of perhaps having a sign up that says something like, "It is the holiday season. Let's avoid hot topics that divide us and focus on discussions we can all enjoy. Thanks for making this a pleasant time for all." And I think of this as like the airport sign about no jokes, things like that. And you can just, somebody starts getting into a hot tub and just say... Just point at the sign, you just kind of smile and point at the sign. Bill Eddy: So everyone remembers and feel safe that this is okay time. We're not going to talk about food differences, religious differences, political differences. We're going to talk about things that everybody can enjoy. And it's interesting. I've seen because I travel a lot. I've seen in different offices now that people have signs that you they won't tolerate abusive language with the staff at clerks at the counter, I'm starting to see signs like that. So I think signs sometimes can be helpful. They can be subtle. Maybe a couple of them placed around wherever you're having your event. Megan Hunter: I have this vision in my head of making sugar cookies with that around, with the frosting on them, decorated with a red circle and the line through it, like you see, says, "Don't do this or that." So you could just have those with the word, like, "No politics.", "No vaccine talk.", "No COVID talk.", "No religious talk." It could be kind of fun just hand someone a cookie. But I think that's important to have a sign up just as a reminder and it doesn't have to be offensive and you could make it fun. But just as that reminder that, "Hey, we all want to get along here. We all just want to have a nice holiday. And there's been enough time to talk about all these hot topics all year or the last two years, three, four years. So let's just have one day where we talk about something else." Bill Eddy: I like that, have the sign beyond the cookies and have them with red flavoring and a line through it. That's a great idea. Megan Hunter: Maybe we'll market that, Bill. Bill Eddy: Then another along the same theme. So maybe have a sign, maybe not invite certain people. But if certain people are going to be coming, you know there's a chance they'll be difficult, is to plan to have a sitter for them so that you have someone that sits next to uncle Frank, because uncle Frank's going to start getting out of line. And so you've got somebody that's uncle Frank sitter. Megan Hunter: Love it. Bill, that's another marketing idea for our company. We'll hire sitters. Bill Eddy: There we go. And we could train them. You know, what to do, and uncle Frank gets in that discussion. And the other fourth tip with this, out of four tips, is to really forget about convincing anybody to think differently. And so often we go, well, if I just make this argument, people would go, "Oh, you're right, Bill. I'm going to change my mind." And just forget about people changing their minds. Bill Eddy: So if uncle Frank starts talking about politics or whatever that is, you can say, "Hey Frank, that's enough. Remember the sign? And now can you pass the green beans, the ones over there? Thank you." Because you want to change the subjects, so you don't give them time to react to being cut off. Bill Eddy: And a lot of times people have a hard time cutting off high conflict behavior. And I find it's because high conflict behavior catches people by surprise. And most people don't want to be rude. So they don't like interrupting people. But if you interrupt high conflict behavior, you're helping the people around them and the person themselves. So when you interrupt them, say something like, "That's enough, now can you pass... Whatever?" If you linger with setting a limit, they're going to fight back with that. If you change the subject, they often accept it and go with the new subject. Megan Hunter: That is a tough one, I think for most people, because number one, you have to stop yourself and you have to have that discipline to stop and to unhook and create a different conversation flow, changing the subject like you said. And I think what we typically do is we just get so hooked into that conversation and want to engage. And that's where I see, really, the biggest problem in dealing with high conflict people is just not being disciplined to stop from engaging. Bill Eddy: Exactly. That's the key. I think you've got it there. Megan Hunter: Yes. It's like, we want to argue, we want to explain, we want to get our point of view across. We want to... Because we think that they are really wanting to have a conversation about this, but they aren't. They're wanting everyone to hear their point of view and agree with it. Bill Eddy: That's a good point too. It's not a conversation, it's hearing them, and that's no fun. Megan Hunter: Yes. Or they're trying to convince you that they're right and you're wrong. And I've found that a lot of high conflict people assume that you agree with them in all of their points of view. And when you don't, it causes a big problem. Bill Eddy: I think you're right. It's interesting. I think high conflict people are often having the conversation in their head, and that they agree with them, and they picture you agreeing with them too. Especially if they like you, they assume you agree on everything. And it's just people... Humans aren't quite that way. Megan Hunter: Right. Bill Eddy: But sometimes too, I get the feeling that I'm hearing the middle of a conversation. Like they've already got the conversation started in their head, and then there, "Isn't that right, Bill?" And it's like, "Isn't what right?" And they go, "Whoa." And they've already changed the subject from a prior conversation and they didn't tell anybody. So it's, I think, important to just not get hooked into that. Megan Hunter: Right. Okay. So what other tips do you have? Bill Eddy: Well, those are basically for dealing with gatherings. Of course, if you're going to a gathering and you're not in charge of it, still keep these principles in mind, not getting into the persuasive arguments, and maybe even personally saying, "Oh, I'm not discussing food, religion, politics, or vaccines today. So how are you doing?" Megan Hunter: Oh, I think there's a T-shirt that... I think you should just show up with a T-shirt that says that. And that, it's a constant reminder for anyone who is talking to you at any point in the party or the dinner. I kind of love that. Megan Hunter: So, here's another situation, Bill, that I think you can provide some real practical help for people. I've seen families that every family gathering, even with the best of intentions, ends up in a blow up. And they storm out of the room, they storm out of the house gathering a day early, two days early. They change their tickets and fly home earlier, or drive home earlier than expected. And it just constantly in a blow up. So that's kind of the next level high conflict if instead of just one person, it's, if you have multiple in the family, and this is just their culture, right? What do you do then? Bill Eddy: There's two things, is stay engaged, but don't engage with that stuff. And the other is disengage and go, "Okay, next year, I'm not going to that gathering." Or even telling the family. And some people have high conflict families and they've learned they have to distance themselves. And I like to say, when you're an adult, you get to choose your family. And so the people you choose to be around and the people you choose not to be around, and this might be a case of that. It's like, okay, because if you've got three or four people engaging in high-level screaming and blaming, changing flights because they're sick of what other people have done, that might be a situation just to totally avoid. And just have your relationship be little less intense and maybe cards and best wishes for the holidays, but you don't have to be there. Maybe that's some ideas. Megan Hunter: I like that. So what do you do about the person that you know is going to be the... They're always the overly sensitive person? Bill Eddy: Well, that's where I think, especially if they're going to get in an argument, is having a sitter, is someone that's good at giving that person ear statements. And ear statements are something we've talked about before on this program, where you give someone a statement that shows empathy, attention and or respect. So you can say, "Hey, aunt Mary, I know this is a hard time right now." And, "Let's talk about something else." Or, "Here's a topic." Or, "Tell me about your niece. How's my niece doing?" So you just kind of interrupt the flow and move to a new topic right away. Bill Eddy: And a lot of high conflict people want attention. And so, if you cut off one conversation, but you start another, they're getting attention. They'll probably go with you to that new conversation. So changing the topic often can help. Megan Hunter: Okay. And I think another thing that helps too with that overly sensitive person is to make them feel welcome and included, because they often don't feel that, and tying directly what you said about they like attention, right? So if you give them that welcoming and little bit of attention, it can keep them calmer throughout the day. And you might have to do it, maybe throughout the event. Yes? Bill Eddy: Yes. And I think sometimes there's somebody at a family gathering who isn't getting attention and they're at some point going to blow up. And so going over to them and engaging them in a conversation could be a nice thing to do and help keep things peaceful also. We all want attention, but in many ways we don't care what the topic is as long as people are paying attention to us. So, change the topic if they're getting into a bad one, and that way have a good one, rather than just walking away from the person. If you can manage that. Some people can, some people can't. Megan Hunter: And does the same tactic work for the kind of the blow hard narcissist that's talking about themselves continually and their successes? Bill Eddy: Yeah. Well, if you're willing to listen to it, you can also always ask the narcissist, "So what projects are you doing these days?", "Oh, I got this million dollar deal. I'm cooking up." And, "Oh, okay." And you can get them off and running sometimes, but you have to again, be able to be comfortable with hearing stuff that may become tiresome. Then that's when you talk about the weather or you talk about the football game or something else. Megan Hunter: How about putting them to work? Any high conflict people, like giving them a task, set the table. Bill Eddy: Yes. Megan Hunter: Prepare the salad. Bill Eddy: Very good idea, because that not only gives them some attention, but makes them feel important. Megan Hunter: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right. And gets them thinking a little instead of emoting. Right? Bill Eddy: Right. So these are all possible things to know, keep in mind. Megan Hunter: Then the second part is... I know this is a very important topic, particularly during the holidays. And we're talking about people who are alone. And this might be someone who just is in the throes of a separation or a divorce or a family that's had that implosion. And no one's speaking to each other, and now everyone's alone. Or, in a lot of cases, there may be parents or grandparents who are alienated from their children or grandchildren after a divorce or separation. And that can be, I guess, the holidays for them is especially painful. Right? Bill Eddy: Yeah. Missing that contact, especially with children and grandchildren who may be far away for some reason. Or there may be a case... In high conflict cases, we see a lot where the children resist or refuse to see one of their parents and anybody related to the parent, even the family dog, they don't like. And that's an emotional issue, and it's not caused by your own behavior, but it can feel like a real loss. And so, in many ways, what I suggest is someday you may be reconciling with that child or grandchild. And so send them a card, have a note, but keep it light. Don't talk about family conflicts. Talk about something you learned lately, or somebody you saw. And make a copy of it and send it to them. Because if it's a case where there's a hostile parent at screening out the mail, the child may never see it, but make a copy of it. Bill Eddy: So someday when you reconcile with the child, sometimes it's a year later, sometimes it's when they're grown up, you can show what you've done. See all the cards I sent to you, all the letters. But again, keep it light and share something in your life. Bill Eddy: Now, another thing is in the holidays, so you're missing them and feeling kind of down, which is very understandable. But think about what can you do to lift your own spirits? What can you tell yourself? Because what we tell ourselves influences how we feel. So, if we say, "So-and-so's not here. I'm so sad about that," then you feel kind of sad or depressed, is you can use new thoughts and say, "I've got free time. I'm going to go watch the ice skating rink or whatever it is that people are ice skating." I just heard people talking in New York city about separated parents and who takes them to see the ice skating at Rockefeller Center. And I've been there. I used to live in New York decades ago, and it's a fun place to be. You can go as a single person and enjoy yourself. Everybody's kind of positive up mood. See kids skating around, things like that. But a lot of neighborhoods, a lot of places where it's cold, like in Canada, there's a lot of places you can go skating and see people that are doing that. Megan Hunter: But what about us here in these sunny areas? You're in San Diego, I'm in Arizona. It's a little tougher for us to see the ice skating. Although I know that there's an ice skating rain here for the holidays at one of the big hotels. But no matter where you are, right? The point is, find something. There's always Bill Eddy: There's always some public event that you can go to. There may be Christmas carols. And a lot of churches have evening programs where people come together and somehow the evening feels a little more Christmasy, especially in the Southwest, where you might be having 70 degrees out in the daytime. It doesn't go with snow and frost, and things like that. Bill Eddy: But the other thing is going to a movie. A lot of movies come out this time of year, and you can go to a movie alone. And some people don't realize that, but you actually can. And you'll find other people are going to the movies alone, and you get absorbed in the story. And now you can see the big screen again with... Well, I was going to say with COVID, it depends on where you are and what's happening. And don't sit too close to other people, but just find things to do that you can then tell the person who you're missing that you did. You can say, "Oh, I saw just reading about the new West Side Story at the theater. And it was so much dancing. It was so much fun, because I know you like to dance." Bill Eddy: Let's say you've got a granddaughter who's 10 or 12, and they love to dance. And so you can connect around that rather than feeling sad that you're not seeing them, is feel happy that you're sharing your positive experience with them, and send them a note about that or a picture. So make your own life happy and share that with the person that you're missing, rather than just sitting alone and feeling the loss. We really can change our mood by what we tell ourselves and what we do. Megan Hunter: Right. And even if you're in a rural community, somewhere in the middle of nowhere, there's so many groups now online that you can become a part of, there's travel groups, there's kayak groups, there's mountain climbing groups, knitting groups, whatever. There's so much available nowadays. And one thing that I like to encourage people to do is to find somewhere to volunteer. I know for myself the best way to get out of my own head and out of my own way is to go help someone else. And when I do that, it really takes the focus off my loneliness or my self absorption and feeling sad, maybe. And really you can pour that, pour yourself all the good bits of yourself into helping a group or a person. Just make sure you're not helping the wrong people getting conned or something, some sociopath, but a legit group that needs help. Bill Eddy: I think that's a great idea, that you're absolutely right. We feel better when we're giving to others, and volunteering is one of the best ways we can do that. Megan Hunter: I remember when my children were young, one year, for Christmas, I took them to Disneyland a few days after Christmas. But it was a big expense and I decided they would each get some little gifts, but the big one was Disneyland. And my family Disneyland was something you do once in your childhood. Now a lot of families go multiple times a year, so it's a little different for them, but it was a big deal for us. So on actual Christmas morning, instead of focusing so much on gifts, we went to deliver gifts on behalf of a church to kids and families all over in some areas that might not have had the income to buy a lot of gifts. And I'm sure my kids thought that was kind of cuckoo back in the day when they were doing it. Megan Hunter: And I remember my sons looking around in some of the neighborhoods we were in like, "Oh dear. Mom, what have you gotten us into?" But I tell you what, they've never forgotten it. And it was such a good thing to role model to them, so that in their adult life, they will continue kind of that giving, paying it forward type of attitude. Anyway. Megan Hunter: And we were here in Arizona, and the grandparents were in another state, so we were kind of alone. It worked really well, I think, to help us get distracted and on that Christmas. Bill Eddy: Good ideas, good ideas all around. Megan Hunter: So what else, Bill? Any other thoughts about the attacking loneliness at Christmas and other holidays? Bill Eddy: I think that's the main thing and finding out where to reach out either physically go somewhere or on Zoom, with COVID still being up and down. What I find is being on Zoom. I see people that I don't usually see and we get to smile and be happy together. And it's fun. And so, just interacting, even if it's two dimensional, instead of three dimensional, still can be very rewarding. Talk to people who smile at you. Megan Hunter: I agree. And it's good just to remind yourself that, if you have to go to that gathering that that HCP is going to be there, it doesn't have to ruin your day. And as you've mentioned at the very beginning, a lot of it is being prepared. Just prepare yourself with your list of rules for yourself for the day. Because like we mentioned, the HCPs are a little like whiplash and kind of whip you all around. And so you have to be prepared with those rules. And if you're living with someone every day, you gradually learn the rules. But if you're only around them once a year, or every couple of years, it's easy to get sidetracked, right? And get that whiplash. So if you prep yourself in advance, you will be able to handle the day a lot better, I think. Bill Eddy: One more thing I also thought of is, I do a lot of consultation and often the clients say, "I'm so glad you understand what I'm going through." Because they're dealing with a high conflict person, maybe in a court case or in an office, or even in a marriage. And nobody understands what this is like to be so intensely attacked by somebody, especially for things that aren't even true. And so we want all our listeners to know that we really have a lot of understanding of what you're going through if you're dealing with somebody like that. Bill Eddy: Like you said, Megan, the whiplash, where you just can't believe what's happening all of a sudden. And it's not because you did something, it's because this is how somebody else behaves. And that's so important, is to don't blame yourself for other people's behavior, be responsible for your own. But if other people are just attacking you out of the blue for who knows what, that says more about them than it does about you. And that's so important for us to remember. So we're not alone in dealing with high conflict people, who don't really understand what they're doing, but it's hurtful to other people around them. Megan Hunter: Right. And it's important to remember to never tell them, particularly during... Bill Eddy: Yes. Megan Hunter: Dinner that they're high conflict or an HCP, or a narcissist, or a sociopath, or something. Just bad idea all the way around. And that will incite conflict and pour a little gas on the fire. So you don't want to do that. Never ever do that. These are folks that we need to have a lot of empathy for and just learn the skills that are necessary to manage interactions and relationships with them, which can be learned. And that's what we talk about on this podcast. Megan Hunter: So with that, I think we'll wrap it up. You'll find everything in the show notes and a few books and articles as well. Megan Hunter: In the next episode, we'll be taking your questions. Thank you to all of you who have submitted questions through our website. There's some really good ones, so we'll be answering those on the next podcast. And after that, we'll be talking with incoming episodes in the new year, 2022, with the Honorable Karen Adam and attorney Annette Burns, who, together with Bill, developed a six-hour video series wherein they interviewed 16 domestic violence experts.So you'll want to stay tuned for those episodes coming up. Megan Hunter: Until then, we wish you happy holidays wherever you are. And may you experience peace throughout the holiday season. Take care. Bill Eddy: Best wishes. Megan Hunter: It's All Your Fault is a production of TruStory FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at trustory.fm or highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.