Latest / Mortgage Marketing Radio / Ep #4: Truth and Lies About Online Marketing with Scott Shang

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Ep #4: Truth and Lies About Online Marketing with Scott Shang · Mortgage Marketing Radio

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Welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio.
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Brought to you by the Mortgage Marketing Institute, your number one source for truth
1:24
in Mortgage Marketing.
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Welcome to another issue, another session of Mortgage Marketing Radio.
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We've got a very special guest as always, but an old friend, actually a dear friend and
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somebody who I consider to be, I don't use, I don't throw around the word expert very
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much.
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But in this case, I will because I haven't really seen more, anybody more than this individual
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really spend time investing research on unpacking and testing various lead sources, various
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productivity, ROI on effort for what's the best place for me to invest a buck or invest
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my time to build my business.
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So without further ado, let me bring in Mr. Scott Shang, who is a 17-year veteran of
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the mortgage and real estate industry, has a wonderful site that we'll talk about and dive
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into called FindMyWayHome.com is doing a lot of interesting things in the areas of content
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marketing.
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Online lead gen is a big believer in systems and automation.
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So Drumroll, please, Scott Shang, welcome to Mortgage Marketing Radio.
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Thanks, Jeff.
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Are you going to add the Drumroll in later?
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I know.
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I didn't hear that.
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That would have been super cool.
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I need to get a sound board and just get all these buttons.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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Well, you know what I actually, I'm comfortable with you using the expert, I'm not, you
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know what, you got to be really careful when you talk about people that have invested
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a lot of time and energy into one thing and they've seen success over it or from it.
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But I think in terms of using the word expert or expertise, I like the, you know, I like,
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was that tipping point?
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Yeah.
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Well, that was, if you invest 10,000 hours into something, you can be considered an expert
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at it.
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I've easily put more than 10,000 hours into this.
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So I do feel like I possess some expertise about the specific things that, you know,
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that I've, that I have focused on.
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But I mean, I also think that a lot of that comes with just coming off as being a little
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obsessive and crazy too, because for the first, the first 3,000 and 5,000 hours, everybody
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thinks you're insane, you know, there's not, you know, what are you working on?
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Why are you, you know, why are you working on that?
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Right.
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And sometimes it, it takes a long time, which I guess we could dive into, but it takes
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a really long time until you realize that, that thing that you obsessed over for all that
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time, there's actually something to it.
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Yeah.
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You know, something significant to it.
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Well, and that's, see, that's a great way to set this whole thing up though, because,
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I mean, one of the things I hope to gain out of today is, you know, I'm trying to provide
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more professionals, right, guidance and direction in an authentic way on what's the right path,
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right, for them.
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And as you know, it's different for everybody, right?
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Some people, as we were talking earlier before the recording, it's like, look, if you've
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got a huge referral based business, then online marketing may not be, you know, in terms
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of Legion, may not be that important for you, right?
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I mean, if you've been 20 years in the business and you're getting 10 referrals a month, it's
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like, you know, do you really need to drop significant investment on online stuff?
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So it really depends on where you're at, but I love why you're here is because you, you
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and I are right, we're on the, we're torn from the same cloth and that we want to clear
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out the BS.
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There's a lot of BSN noise in this industry.
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People pitching products and services, which, you know, some have value and a lot of them
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don't.
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I'm not here to make judgment.
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I'm here to just hopefully provide value and, you know, some, a place people can go to,
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to get value.
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So that's why you're here, man, you've passed through the, through the gauntlet.
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All right.
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Let's get into it.
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Sorry.
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I have.
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You've, by the way, you've done so much in this industry, I mean, you, in terms of speaking
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used to be on the circuit, man, what was the seminars you used to speak at all the time?
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There's a bunch of them.
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Well, yeah, I mean, I, I, I dove really, really, I got really deep into the real estate
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bar camp movement when, when that first started in like 2009, I think was the first one
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up in San Francisco and I went, went to pretty much every one of those in California, probably
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30 or 40 of those.
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We started doing some similar things in the mortgage space with the mortgage tech summit,
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with Mark Madsen and, and, and we've done quite a few of those through the years.
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And now I, I pretty much the big one.
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I mean, I still get asked to speak at usually real estate events.
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So it, it was mostly for real estate agents and, and talking about lead generation systems
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and offering a different perspective in that way.
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But the big one that I'm doing now is the explode conference that comes around a couple
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of times a year and that's actually coming up next month and I'll be, I'll be speaking
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about that or speaking at that about actually about a niche that I developed on, on the
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website over the last probably five or six years that's really starting to come to fruition.
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Okay.
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So what is that niche that's coming to fruition?
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Boomerang buyers.
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So in, in 2000 and actually the first article I wrote was February 2011 and it was about
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what the underwriting guidelines are for buying after a bankruptcy foreclosure, Dean
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Lewer short sale.
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And so I started writing about that, also February 2011, so I guess it's been five years
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and today it probably, well, between about three or four blog posts, there's almost 3,000
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comments.
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I get, I get comments and calls every single day.
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It gets thousands and thousands of hits every month from that, from just mostly from
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a lot of those, from a lot of, from those articles, but there's a, that's a very much of
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an emerging niche.
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There's a lot of lenders and loan officers that just didn't want to take the time to
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talk to somebody if they thought that they had a financial hardship in the past.
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And you know, you talked about noise going in.
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That's one of the beauties of, it's one of the beauties of content marketing is if you're
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putting good stuff out there, it really does stand out, especially when you, with all
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other crap that's out there that's just people throwing up, you know, just generic stuff
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for hiring writers or, you know, putting words on the internet is not the same thing
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as using content, marketing to grow your business.
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So I mean, there's so many different areas we could go this one.
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I want, I'll come back to the boomerang buyer niche in a second, but I do want to kind
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of ask you and, and solidify something you alluded to with people just putting words
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on the internet.
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And there's differing opinions about you obviously do your own writing on your blog, right?
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Right.
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Yeah.
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So yes.
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So in the context of either search ranking or anything like that, what is your, I'm
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just going to put it out there because I know there's people in various, you know, positions
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on this.
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But what is your take on automating that, meaning having somebody else is, you know, the big
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way, why don't most loan officers blog, whatever, I don't have the time, I don't know what
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to write, blah, blah, blah.
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So they outsource that to a service that does that.
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What's your take on that versus doing it yourself?
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Well, I've always treated writing as though I were, I write, when I'm writing in my mind,
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I imagine that I'm sitting across the table from a consumer.
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And so I'm sharing my experience, I'm, I'm, I'm showing them who I am, what my knowledge,
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what my experience is.
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I mean, every single conversation, well, there's two things, I guess, I write every article
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like I'm talking to a consumer and I treat every consumer like my parents.
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So how would I, how would I try to explain to my mom, how to not get tricked or fooled
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or twisted up on a one guideline or another?
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So for me, I think it's, I think writing is it, if you're going to do it for the right
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reasons, now you say right reasons, I mean, there's different strategies just putting content
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on the web to make yourself feel good.
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And for rankings, I think if you were trying to do it for SEO alone, I think that's kind
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of an insane play anymore, I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend anybody try to start a content
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marketing site around mortgages today.
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It just SEO just doesn't have that much value if you've, you got to put a lot of consistent
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stuff out there for it to, for it to really build a, I mean, I think that the best way
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to do it is as a someplace that you send people just to assist them and to have conversation.
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It's a destination and absolutely and if you treat it that way, the SEO will come.
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Okay, so that's an awesome point there and a very important one.
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So just to reiterate that you don't, you feel that today for somebody to start a content
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marketing related site about mortgages, meaning about qualifying for a mortgage, whatever,
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you think that's a pretty difficult task to overcome.
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Is that because of the other, and if you're expecting for that to pay off in SEO rankings
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specifically, which is a very focused thing you're trying to achieve online coming up
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in SEO, is that because of the companies with huge dollars that are essentially buying
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up that space and pretty much near impossible for the average Joe to come up in search rankings?
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Not, it's mostly because of the noise.
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So the first thing you've got to understand, if you've got to understand who's looking
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for that content, so search engine optimization is implying that a consumer has a question
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and they're typing it into Google.
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So search engine optimization means that your content is optimized to show up in front
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of that consumer.
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Now that's where it gets challenging because when you're writing about, most people think
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that you should be writing about generic information.
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You know what's detaincom ratios, all of this kind of stuff.
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How do you qualify for a mortgage?
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Well that generic, non-specialized content that doesn't require any sort of personal experience,
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there's so much of it out there because it's generic, there's so much of it out there,
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you'll never be found.
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Search engine optimization comes from niche.
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It comes from writing about something that nobody else is writing about.
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Writing about the same thing that everybody else is writing about.
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This is what I always say when I'm speaking because everybody always says, well look at this
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website, look at that website.
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See the best thing that could ever come out of trying to keep up with the Joneses is
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you just get to be another Jones and nobody wants to be the Jones, right?
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You don't want to keep up with them because then you're just going to be another one of
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them and there's a billion of them out there.
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Search engine optimization is about having something unique to say in all that noise.
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How do you stand out in the noise?
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Where's the signal that there's intelligent life out there?
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If you got to listen a really, really hard setty has a hard time finding intelligent
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information on the internet.
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They're listening for the signals, but it's just not there.
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It's mostly just noise.
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Okay, so you're talking about being unique and writing about something that, quote,
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no one else is writing about.
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Or something that's genuinely you.
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Well, that's what I was just going to say.
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So you take the subject of boomerang buyers.
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It's not that no one else is writing about those.
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You're writing about them in your own unique way and voice, which is your point.
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Correct.
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Okay.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And while it, see, here's, there's a lot right people writing about boomerang buyers.
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Yes, I will give you that.
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There's very few probably, right?
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And especially on a consistent basis in ways that you're doing, like, you know, anybody
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listening can go to findmywayhome.com and, of course, search for boomerang buyers and
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you're going to see these articles and content come up.
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So go ahead.
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I interrupted you.
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The true, well, the, I mean, the true value of that didn't come from the article because
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all I literally did was bullet pointed and there's, you know, anybody who's a conversion geek
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will look at it and go, man, that's crap.
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How do you ever get anything out of that?
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There's a lot that I could do to make it convert better.
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But the value in that really came from the comment section.
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So all of the value of that and people call it a forum.
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But there's a page there that just has the guidelines and there's almost 1400 questions
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on there that I answered every single one.
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And it, and that's one of the byproducts of being a niche content marketer is you really
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get to know, you really get to learn what it is you're talking about.
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You know, this, this comes down to the mentality.
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You said something important.
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It was my perspective and, and that's true and I make it unique to me.
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It's not just, while the information may initially be just generalized, the conversation that
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takes place around that is very specific and, and it is experience based writing and,
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and you're, again, you're treating it like you're talking to people one on one and when
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people see that, it, when people see that they'll respond accordingly.
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I mean, in those comment streams, you know, there's, there's more than 25 different
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comments on there at least that say, you know, I spent the last six hours reading all
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of these comments or I learned more in five minutes than I've learned in the last five
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months with people giving me wrong information.
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Yeah.
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So you get a lot of that.
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Yeah.
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And that, that's something you can't do if you're completely, completely automating everything.
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If you're never really engaged to write, and that's obviously the point of social media,
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right, is engaging.
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So if you're never actually jumping in the pool with your, you know, fellow community members
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there, then you have, you don't have an access to the pulse, to the tone, to the issues
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and challenges that come up that you can use in so many different ways in your business.
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So one question I have that I'm sure a lot of people are thinking about is, um, okay,
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you got, you know, a thousand plus comments or whatever.
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So how did you get so many comments where these, where did these come from?
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Did you show up in rankings because a, the content was unique to be the engagement started
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to build.
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You got this a thousand people following you already, right?
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Well, I mean, the website already, already did pretty well, but this was definitely an
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organic move and it, and it was because I was very early to address those issues.
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So, and then there had been a lot of changes with the guidelines since I started writing
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about it.
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So, Fannie and Freddie and FHA, I mean, FHA hasn't really changed, Fannie's switched their
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stance on, on the guidelines a couple of times in that particular topic, but it was really
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just investing in, it was investing in that, I mean, I guess the whole reason I ever went
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online in the first place is because I don't think I'm a great salesperson, but I love
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to educate.
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So how I earn business is like a, how I earn business, it's a very personal thing for
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me is I want people to get good information and that's the whole reason why I got on
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the internet is because I instantly knew fourth quarter 2007, nobody trusts lenders anymore.
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So this is finally an opportunity to have a voice that if you can create a voice that
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is genuine, that it should stand out amongst, you know, because people are already skeptical.
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So that's why I started publishing stuff online and, and I published stuff online as though
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it was actually me talking to people and that's how I approached it as though I were having
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one-on-one conversations because you are, if somebody reads your information, you're having
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a one-on-one conversation with that person.
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So what's the impression you want to leave them with?
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Okay, so the, and by the way, I really appreciate your comment about, you know, you're saying,
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you don't think you're good at sales, so you decided to like do more on teaching, which
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is actually a hallmark of a great salesperson, you know, I don't know if you've heard
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that I think it was Dave from Dave Ramsey talk about that whole, right, come from a standpoint
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of a teacher and educator rather than just a salesperson and it's a whole reciprocal
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kind of thing which we know and which is why, you know, we see, we're seeing the shift
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in the traditional sales model we have, right, from interruption marketing, all that to
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more, you know, to your point about teaching and educating content marketing.
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But naturally, I'm thinking about, as I'm sure some people are wondering, okay, cool,
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man, you got this, sorry, you got some, doing some really cool stuff with this particular
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niche, what can we track for business, you know, either as a whole from this site find
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my way home or from the specific stuff you're doing around boomerangs, any, any color
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you can provide there?
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Yeah, absolutely, I mean, my, for many years, I took, I took a hiatus from originating for
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quite a few years as the site started building up and we just used, I used the site as a branch
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manager to feed the loan officers in my office and there was a time with another niche
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product that I had early on that probably 90% of our business was coming from, coming
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from the site on this particular niche and then that niche went away.
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So then I was kind of left with a commodity again and the commodity being the loans that
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are available for everybody through, through everyone, I've recently been going through
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some changes.
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I was working as a direct lender or the branch manager as a direct lender for the last
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eight years, recently I went back out into the marketplace, got my boots back into the
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trenches and, and the amazing thing happened instead of handing out the leads to my loan
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officers, I just started answering the emails and the phone calls and the leads myself from
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my, just from the website and I've been doing that for, it's been about three or four months
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now and I'm buried, I almost can't do it, there's just, I mean, I've got too, too much going
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on every single day, it's, it's bringing in business and that's, I mean, the site gets
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about 20,000 visits a month.
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So it generates a little bit over a hundred leads a month that don't come to me that just
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go through the league form and get distributed to loan officers and then we have about another
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hundred people a month that'll sign up, that'll just give us the email address because
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they want to be updated on the, with the next payment that, or the next article that comes
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out.
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So what I started doing very early on is, and I know this is something that you, this
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is kind of part of the magnetism that brought us together that, like minded thinking, is
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I'm a huge believer in this one to many concept and writing is a one to many strategy, even
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though you're having a personal conversation with the person reading it, you're sharing
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your knowledge with, with, with many, many, you know, with many people at the same time.
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So I've been writing two to three articles a week for almost eight years.
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So there's a lot of content out there.
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And so every week when I write new articles, I send them out to the people that have either
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filled out web forms or opted in.
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And today, that list is around 11,000 people that I'll send to them every, you know, every,
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when I write new articles.
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So there's always that, that combination, pretty good database.
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The biggest, yeah, no, it's getting there.
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It's getting there.
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And I learn more about it every single day, you know, as we were discussing before we got
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started, I'm working with a new CRM product to create, you know, more automation.
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But the interesting thing, when you talk about conversion, when you talk about production,
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I mean, those numbers sound, they sound good and they're probably pretty good.
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I don't know, I don't know what to compare it to.
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But what I know for, what I do, I do know for a fact is that I tend to, I'm just building,
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building, building.
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And the reality is, I'm probably about 30% efficient.
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So when I say that is, do I have great calls to action in my content?
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Is the website laid out perfectly?
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Are my key, you know, where I get the most traffic?
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Am I capturing that information and converting it properly?
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And I'd say the answer is no.
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I really do think I'm probably, I honestly think I'm probably under 50% capacity for what
24:27
we could be pulling off of that.
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I mean, there is just a, there's a lot of traffic.
24:33
Now that doesn't mean leads, you know, just because you have fans on Twitter don't mean
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that they really know who you are.
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If you pay somebody on Fiverr for 10,000 Twitter followers, you know what that is.
24:46
You know, so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's people, but it is people taking a look
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at you.
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And if you're actually providing value, that value never goes away.
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And I think that's probably one of the reasons that I don't have the sense of urgency
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to try a lot of conversion, different conversion strategies, because this is kind of good
25:09
enough for now, until I figure out a better way to do it.
25:13
And that's kind of the stage that I'm at right now.
25:16
Well, I mean, this thing's about to get real, yeah, it's about to get real, huh?
25:21
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm learning more and more about it all the time, but I, I mean,
25:28
I basically, I mean, I kind of feel like I've got to blanket on the floor with all of the
25:33
parts for a Ferrari.
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Now all I got to do is learn how to build a Ferrari, but once it's done, all the parts
25:40
are there.
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If I follow the instructions and I do it, you're going to have a Ferrari at the end,
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but right now it's just, I feel like it's potential.
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I mean, it's, it's a good start on the potential, but there's still a lot more that we can do
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with it.
25:53
So, can you attribute a certain percentage then of your overall, you know, production towards
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or from this site?
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It's ballpark.
26:03
It doesn't exist.
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100% 100% of my production is from the site, it's doing, well, for mine, yeah, I mean,
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I'm doing probably two to three million a month off of it, but it's also being, you know,
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we're also distributing it to, distributing it to the other loan officers, yeah, so
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it's getting to you and a bunch of others, right?
26:27
Yeah, yeah.
26:28
I mean, in a perfect world, I would, in a perfect world, I still think it's less than
26:35
50.
26:36
It should be 50, less than 50% of your of your production, because if you're not getting
26:41
the referrals and you're not getting, well, you're getting their past client business,
26:46
your referral business from clients and from business partners, it's, it's just a piece
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of the, you know, it's a small piece of the puzzle.
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I don't think it would ever be.
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It's 100% for me because I haven't originated in eight years, but I know that the day that
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I started originating, I had loans open, right?
27:06
So, well, not the day, but within a couple of weeks, as soon as I started taking the calls,
27:11
they were, they were there and they were ready.
27:16
So how do these, for me, it was, it's, yeah, no, I mean, I think, no, I was just going
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to say it.
27:23
Yeah, the, the, the, again, it's a sales process.
27:28
So if you're bringing people in based on the conversations that you're putting out into
27:32
the internet, it's really, that's an easy transition.
27:36
So I mean, I guess if we circle back a little bit to your initial question about having
27:43
ghost writers and writing the stuff out there, when people call you or when they contact
27:49
you from your content on the website,
27:52
they expect that they feel like they already had a conversation with you.
27:57
So if you're, if you're first real conversation with them is completely inconsistent with
28:03
what the content of what they were reading is, then you're not going to have, you're
28:08
not going to have a connection there.
28:10
But if it's your content that comes from your heart and your experience, when they call
28:15
you, they, it's never about, well, I don't know if I'm going to do business with you.
28:22
By the time they call, it's how do I do business with you?
28:25
Because they already know you and they already read what you have to say.
28:29
And they already, you've already had that introduction.
28:33
The trust is already there.
28:35
There, see, this is the thing with content marketing is there is a, there is an enormous
28:40
trust gap that needs to be bridged.
28:44
And there is so much crap on the internet that you really have to have some layer of,
28:53
of genuine exgenuinness and genuine experience in, in there, there's got to be, there's got
29:00
to be some soul in that song or nobody is going to sing it.
29:03
Well, you know, they just have to, it has to feel like something.
29:06
It goes back to what we talked about earlier, it's your voice.
29:09
So if you take a, you know, quote, ghost written content versus, you know, self generated
29:13
content, there's going to likely be a position taken or an angle or a slant, perhaps, or an
29:21
opinion on the personally generated versus the ghost, right?
29:28
Yes.
29:29
And here's what what the, and now this is my experience.
29:32
So it's difficult to say this is the chicken or the egg argument, probably.
29:37
So do I have the kind of interaction and, and attract of the type of visitors to my
29:42
site because of how I write or, or is it, or is it because of what the consumer is
29:53
looking for?
29:54
Because here's, here's the thing, nobody will go to Google and type in who's the best
30:01
loan officer in this city.
30:03
They're going to Google because their last loan officer forgot to call them back or told
30:10
them that they don't qualify for some reason.
30:13
Google is, is a safety net for, for mortgages.
30:18
It's not, nobody's going out there actually believing all of the, if you could walk into
30:25
Bank of America or Wells Fargo and get alone by just, you know, showing, putting a thumbprint
30:32
because you've got a long experience with them.
30:34
If you're a perfect borrower, you know, you're not, they're not necessarily, those aren't
30:39
the people that I attract.
30:40
I attract the people that everybody else already said no to.
30:44
And, and, and I think you've got to be careful about that.
30:48
You've got to be careful about that because you've got to be able to help, but that's
30:51
how you get, that's how you get the traction telling something, telling somebody something
30:56
that anybody can tell them is how you get lost.
31:00
Again, that's, that's how you, you know, knowing the motivation and, and how they would
31:07
use it is, has to be a big part.
31:09
And I think that's the part that people have challenges committing to.
31:14
I mean, it's, it's hard to measure because when I started in 2007, WordPress wasn't what
31:21
it was today.
31:22
I'd never run a blog before, I'd never done anything like this before at all.
31:28
I didn't have any online presence.
31:31
So I mean, it took about 18 months until I could attribute my first closing to the actual
31:37
website.
31:38
So it was almost two years before I really realized that this is something that's going on.
31:45
But now, you know, almost eight years later, there's so much momentum, but it took years
31:52
to build that momentum.
31:54
But now it's, it's pretty legitimate.
31:57
I mean, it's a, it's kind of a powerhouse right now, but that's just because of years.
32:03
Yes.
32:04
Yeah.
32:05
You've done your 10,000 plus hours.
32:06
So we're going to pivot a little bit then because obviously, you know, to your point
32:09
about this investment of time and effort, what do you say to somebody who doesn't have
32:14
that years to make it pay off if they're looking to, you know, well, I, yeah, I alluded
32:22
to it in the very beginning is, is you're not doing a website for SEO.
32:27
You're doing it to make it easier to share your experience with, with your clients.
32:32
So whether that's your referral partners or your past clients or every single, I always
32:39
tell people, if you start a blog, just don't expect to be number one on Google and start
32:45
generating, you know, there are so many different disciplines and, and things to learn how
32:52
to convert readers into leads.
32:54
That's a whole another thing.
32:56
But if you're not putting content on the website, I find that the whole reason why I started
33:02
a website is because I found I have the same conversations with almost every client.
33:07
So if I'm having the same conversation with every single client, why don't I just put
33:11
that conversation online so that if you meet somebody, you know, let's say you meet somebody
33:17
in the grocery store and you hear them talking about mortgages or whatever and, or, and you
33:23
say, oh, well, you know what, I, I actually have a lot of experience with this.
33:28
Do you mind if I email you this article?
33:31
So, so then you can, you, it's kind of understanding how consumers like to learn, how to consume
33:38
content or educate themselves in today's market.
33:41
And so you're making this available to them.
33:45
And this strategy is, is, is really advertising.
33:51
So you're establishing yourself as an expert, you're earning their trust and then they wouldn't
33:56
do business with anyone else because you're the one that gave them the answer because
34:00
like you said, there's a, there's so much noise out there that it's pretty easy to be
34:08
recognized as genuine if you actually put some effort into it.
34:13
So I just use it as a tool.
34:15
Forget about SEO, but it's one of the best broadcasting.
34:19
It's one of the best ways you can get your message directly to people that you'll ever
34:24
find.
34:25
Yeah, and I think that's a great point and one to highlight, right?
34:28
About SEO, unless you've got some really deep pockets to invest in a long period of time
34:33
to see the results on that.
34:36
And more importantly is using your, your blog, right?
34:39
The hub and spoke model that I know you're familiar with.
34:41
I've brought up here before on the podcast and, you know, knowing that the blog essentially
34:45
your website is going to be that, that hub, right, where you can, it's a destination and
34:49
where you can drive people to and to your point about the grocery store setting, I alluded
34:54
to this, I think earlier, which is about, you know, the traditional sales model is broken.
34:59
Nowadays, you know, your point about how consumers make it make decisions about what to buy.
35:03
They're not only doing that when they go to Best Buy and check out a TV they want to buy
35:06
and going online and doing it on the research.
35:08
If they meet you in the grocery store, if they get referred to you by an agent or whatever
35:11
the case is in your networking group, they're going to want to be able to go someplace
35:15
online to learn more about who you are, right?
35:19
Exactly.
35:20
Educate themselves about, you know, what is your knowledge, expertise level?
35:23
What is your positioning?
35:24
How do you, do you show up as professional?
35:26
I think that's the other benefit that you're talking about when it comes to having a good
35:32
online presence.
35:33
Absolutely.
35:34
I, and I think that should first and foremost be everybody's concern is you're, you know,
35:41
this is also kind of my argument with, with, with reviews, reviews aren't necessarily
35:48
online reviews.
35:49
First of all, I don't know how many people actually put any weight into online reviews.
35:54
I know it's kind of a cool buzzword and they like it.
35:58
Like you to think, yeah, everybody knows they're made up.
36:02
I mean, if you dig into how the internet works, it's pretty easy to manipulate that stuff.
36:08
But I think most people, it's something that's good to reinforce, but just having somebody
36:16
else saying something about you is one thing, but it's, yeah, it's really giving them
36:22
the opportunity because consumers want to do the research on you.
36:26
So people aren't going in and they're not going in and they're saying, where's the best
36:30
loan officer in, in Irvine, but they're saying, oh, this, you know, my buddy told me about
36:37
Jeff Simfer.
36:38
I wonder what's, I wonder what he's all about.
36:41
So they go online and they look for you.
36:43
What are they going to discover?
36:46
And so you want those engaging, you know, pieces of content, right?
36:50
That's going to, if we go back to, it's funny.
36:53
I think we were trying to isolate the definition of content marketing and I'll pull that from
36:57
my friends over at Content Marketing Institute, right?
36:59
It's about something that's focused on creating and distributing valuable, relevant, and consistent
37:04
to attract and retain a clearly defined audience and ultimately to drive a profitable customer
37:10
action.
37:11
I would add to that, right, it solves a problem.
37:14
And so what's the problem somebody has if they're looking for a mortgage?
37:18
Well, they want to find somebody who's A knowledgeable, who's got experience, who's
37:22
who's respectful and authentic, I guess, if you will.
37:26
And then they want to understand, right?
37:29
The nuances of buying, of qualifying for a loan, the ins and outs of that, because we
37:33
know most, you correct me if I'm wrong.
37:37
Most of the borrowers still in today's market are not your vanilla A paper borrowers,
37:40
right?
37:42
Yeah, not online.
37:44
That's not my experience, is there a lot of the ones that, again, I don't know if that's
37:50
just what the market is or that's what I've extracted from the market.
37:54
That's what I've attracted because of the type of content that I write.
38:00
So you definitely get what you write for, but one of the things that, as we're talking
38:10
here and I'm thinking about where the greatest success comes from, from my website, you know,
38:17
I think if you were going to start a blog, I think that's great, but I, what I would think
38:22
would be even more valuable is some sort of publicly accessible Q&A on your site that
38:28
people could ask questions or every time you get an email, I mean, I tell everybody
38:34
that they say, I don't even know what to blog about.
38:37
Well, check your send folder in your email, you know, I mean, your clients email you questions
38:44
all the time.
38:45
If you get those questions posted on your website, and then you answer those questions,
38:51
there is no better display of your expertise than how you help other people answer the questions
38:58
that they have.
38:59
And that's ultimately what it comes down to is when I have questions, are you going to
39:05
be able to help me to navigate that because everybody is a professional until it all
39:09
goes sideways, right?
39:11
And as we know, anybody that's been in the market long enough, most of them go sideways.
39:16
So your expertise is limited to the, a lot of times limited to the challenges that you've
39:26
encountered and overcome.
39:28
And until you start the process, people are choosing a loan officer without testing their
39:34
expertise.
39:35
They're just trusting it.
39:36
Yeah, when they're trusting the implied trust of that referral, if that's where it comes
39:40
from as well.
39:41
But, you know, we want to do as much as we can to shore up that perceived trust and of
39:46
course build that as we engage with them.
39:48
And that's where content marketing and that's where your website really can come in.
39:52
And I like that point about check your send folder because you've got multiple blog posts
39:57
in that send folder itself or an FAQ page.
40:00
I kind of like the blog post thing because it's more frequent and consistent.
40:02
Each one of those can be a short little snippet, you know?
40:05
And it's real world, right?
40:06
It's like, hey, you got a question from a borrower today on X, but there's your blog post.
40:11
Yeah.
40:12
And here's how, and here's how I answered it.
40:15
Right.
40:16
And the title is always the question.
40:20
So how can I do this or what happens on this because that's what people type in a Google.
40:26
So as soon as somebody else has that issue, like, you know, when can I use, can I use
40:33
income from my second job, right?
40:36
That's a great piece of content that somebody who goes out there and and applies with somebody
40:43
an inexperienced loan officer doesn't recognize that they have a history of having second employment
40:49
income.
40:50
And so they try to fit it into a program that won't allow that.
40:54
They get turned down, they go online and say, why can't I use my income?
40:59
So and then your article pops up and hopefully you have an answer to that.
41:05
Well, we have a program that only requires one year worth of income.
41:08
Right.
41:09
Yeah.
41:10
And there's ways for you to collect that information.
41:11
Obviously, you know, the cent folders won your exchanging emails, but you can actually, you
41:15
know, I could see this doing this in front of a group of real estate agents as well, right?
41:20
One of the biggest questions, challenges, issues that your buyers have.
41:26
And it's this, seriously, if we, if you've been in the business more than a year, you've
41:31
had the same questions over and over and over again.
41:35
Right.
41:36
Yeah.
41:37
So why not leverage that and just say, you know, answer the question with the person live,
41:41
right?
41:42
And then say, oh, by the way, should you have more questions?
41:44
Let me direct you to such and such page.
41:46
Right.
41:47
We're all.
41:48
Yeah.
41:49
I mean, the way that I approach, yeah, the way I approach it is you're, you're an expert
41:55
in what you do.
41:57
You, you, we manage people's, we're responsible for a sometimes people's biggest investments
42:05
in their entire life, at least monetarily.
42:08
There's a certain amount of expertise that you have, be in selfish with it.
42:13
If the only way to get that expertise is to sit down with you face to face, you're
42:17
being selfish and you're, you're keeping that information from the, from people that
42:24
really could use it.
42:25
So that's where content marketing really helps as you put that expertise online so that
42:30
people can find you.
42:32
You're a, you're a lighthouse.
42:34
You're a beacon of hope in a sea of noise out on the internet.
42:40
And so I take it super seriously.
42:42
I guess maybe that's the, I guess maybe that's the point.
42:45
When I write, I'm not thinking about how many leads this is going to generate for me.
42:50
It's usually something that's, I'm angry about or passionate about or a challenge that
42:55
I overcame or something that I think is really going to help people, it's, it's not always,
43:02
it's not fluff, it's not for the sake of doing it.
43:05
You get angry?
43:06
I think this has been, this has been like a one hour answer to like your very first question
43:12
about SEO is what it seems like.
43:13
No, I'm actually, I'm, I'm constantly, well, what I'm angry about is ignorant.
43:22
So here's, okay, so here's a really quick example and, and I know this is kind of crazy,
43:27
but this is what I run into every single day.
43:31
I, I got a call like two weeks ago from a gentleman who's in a boomerang buyer situation
43:38
and a loan officer told him that he qualified for a specific loan product.
43:43
It's down in San Diego, a loan officer told him he qualified for FHA.
43:48
He never qualified for FHA due to the timing of his short sales and his bankruptcies.
43:53
Now this guy's got seven sixty FICO scores, fifty percent down payment and the first thing
43:59
is the loan officer was trying to approve him for an FHA, which he never, he never qualified
44:05
for the FHA in the first place.
44:07
He never, never met guidelines.
44:09
But this loan officer decided to let him go into escrow and try it and do it without having
44:16
the experience to go on and it definitely wasn't malicious.
44:18
It was ignorance.
44:19
They just didn't know.
44:21
So when they get down to the closing table, of course they don't qualify for FHA.
44:25
So he flipped him into an eight and a quarter percent interest rate on a five one arm with
44:32
a seven sixty FICO with fifty percent loan to value.
44:35
Well, it just so happens that the guideline that would have allowed him to buy using conventional
44:43
financing with no mortgage insurance, he was eligible for that.
44:48
So this guy closed his loan last week, hasn't even made a payment.
44:53
I'm doing a rate in term knocking his interest rate down by more than half saving him over
44:59
five hundred dollars a month on a loan that's under two hundred thousand dollars.
45:05
And so he's able to refinance out of it, but he never should have done it.
45:09
And the reason is, after he went through that experience, he went online and he asked
45:13
the question, when should I be able to buy after this?
45:17
And my content came up and he called me and he's not even going to have to make a payment
45:21
on that eight and a quarter percent interest rate loan.
45:24
He's going to be able to skip a couple more payments and his first payment is going to
45:28
be at today's market, today's rate without mortgage insurance and he's not going to have
45:33
to worry about it again.
45:35
Wow.
45:36
So that's, you know, those are the stories that happen every single day.
45:41
So if you specialize in something, if you specialize in something, you get it out there
45:49
because there's not everybody specializes in what you specialize in.
45:54
And I think that's a big piece of, that's where the SEO comes from.
45:59
So the SEO comes from that, are you saying something different from everybody else?
46:03
That's where your SEO comes from.
46:04
Everything else is just establishing yourself as an expert and being accessible.
46:12
And you got to put in the work is what I'm really taking away from this is, you know,
46:17
if you're going to have that online process, it's going to take some elbow grease.
46:22
Yeah, everybody thinks that the internet was access to every money spending person in
46:30
the universe and I'm going to get them to all spend it with me.
46:33
It's way harder than face-to-face sales.
46:36
Okay.
46:37
I love it.
46:38
So now we're going to pivot.
46:39
We're going to pivot from, you know, not exclusively from online to off, but I love
46:43
that you transition to that because, you know, in some regards, I would call the internet,
46:49
you know, the various subsets of that SEO, whatever, you know, kind of that bright, shiny
46:53
object, even even Facebook for people, right, where they get distracted by that.
46:57
And there's purveyors of that, you know, message of like, hey, man, just, you know, it's
47:02
all online today.
47:03
And if you're not online, you're dead and, you know, this, that, and the other thing.
47:06
And of course, you know, I am a believer in the combination of both, right, with what
47:10
I do for loan officers and real estate agents with the seminars we help them put on.
47:16
But how do you see the overall, because you have loan officers, obviously, as you said,
47:21
that report to you and all this stuff and you've been doing this for many years.
47:24
You've done lots of presentations.
47:26
You do online clearly, exclusively, you know, and I always ask these silly questions that
47:30
I like.
47:31
If I only had one, which is a dumb question, one way to actually promote and build my business,
47:35
well, we don't ever want to have just one.
47:37
But let me ask it this way, what do you are, I talked about this on the last blog.
47:42
I love this new acronym.
47:43
I have ROE return on effort, right?
47:45
It's about leveraged activities.
47:47
What are the most leveraged activities for you and your experience for generating business
47:51
be a director referral?
47:55
Oh boy.
47:57
Wow, that's a good question.
47:59
I mean, my, for me personally, it, it really is just coming out with that new content.
48:07
That's, that's a hard question for me to answer because I have access to a resource
48:14
that most other people aren't going to have access to.
48:17
I mean, for me, I actually do have an audience.
48:20
I, I mean, I literally have, I call them conversations.
48:25
If somebody goes to my website, I had a conversation with them because that was really my, when
48:32
I wrote that, I was having a conversation with somebody.
48:36
So I literally have 20,000 conversations a month.
48:41
And, you know, a certain percentage of those I can do business with, but the rest of them,
48:45
you just don't know.
48:47
I mean, I get these things, people come back years and years after, you know, at least probably
48:54
five times a month, I'll get an email that the very first sentence is, I've been reading
48:59
your website for the last three, four or five years.
49:03
And so you just never know what's, you know, what's out there.
49:07
You know, as far as what activities, what activities you invest in, and if I just went
49:14
on a rabbit hole, put me back on track, but, but I don't think it, I think it just has
49:19
to be something.
49:21
And I think before you decide what that thing is that you're going to engage in, don't
49:28
listen, don't just listen to what somebody's, how somebody's telling you that there's
49:34
a better mouse trap, there's a better way to trap those mice out there.
49:39
Take the time to understand what the mice want to eat.
49:44
Find out where they're, where they're looking for the food.
49:48
Why are they looking in those places for the food?
49:51
If you're going to be online, you have to have this empathy with, you have to be able
49:55
to connect with the consumer.
49:57
You can't sell online.
49:59
The very best thing you can do online is earn somebody's trust.
50:03
And that's not something to be taken lightly.
50:06
Some of it has to do with what your site looks like, but more of it has to do with how
50:11
you connect with the person once they find it.
50:16
And I think that's the, that's the single most important part is whatever you do, you
50:20
got to be genuine about it.
50:24
And, and you just have to commit to it because, especially when you're talking about emerging
50:28
markets, and I think that's something that I kind of specialize in.
50:31
I'm sort of hardwired for delay reward.
50:35
I'm not one of those guys that, that wants to do something and then get a reward out
50:39
of it.
50:40
I'm the guy that thinks that, you know, if I work really, really hard at this for a really
50:45
long time, nobody else will put that much effort in and I'll win in the end.
50:50
So I'm wired a little bit differently and I think that's why I was okay with working
50:56
on this for, for seven, eight years and I still think I've only scratched the surface
51:01
of what I can do with this as we were talking about this new CRM that I've got that, that
51:07
takes my ability to create a customer experience to a whole new level.
51:13
Right.
51:14
And, and I'm really excited about converting that traffic in that audience and, and learning
51:20
new ways to build, to build trust.
51:23
Awesome.
51:24
Did I answer that question or did I just spin off on a tangent?
51:28
Well, you know, as far as I, what I heard was a great answer is the real answer is it
51:33
depends, right?
51:34
If you talk about, you know, hey, what's the most highly leveraged activity I could be
51:37
doing to get, to build my business and get, you know, loans in production.
51:42
It does depend because it depends on where you are, who you're at.
51:44
And I, I'm a big follow up Chris Brogan and, and I always, you know, like his response
51:49
to people, to your point about people telling you, hey, this is the way it should be done.
51:53
You know, his answer is, says who, right?
51:55
I mean, it depends, it depends on what, like we opened up with, if you've got a massive
51:59
database of 20 years in the business of referral business, you know, you're not necessarily
52:03
worried about where your next loan has come from, because as long as you're obviously,
52:06
you know, keeping that wheel greased and engaged and all that.
52:10
So the answer does depend on, but you, yeah, but, and if you're one of those referral
52:15
people, you can absolutely start looking at some automation tools so that it's easier
52:21
so you can free up more time to talk to the people that are interested by creating systems,
52:26
whether it's a website or a CRM, to stay in communication with that database.
52:31
If that database is sitting in Excel and doing nothing, then you need to adopt some technologies
52:38
and some different communication tools so that you, it'll free your highest,
52:42
invest use is talking to people, not necessarily dialing the phone or handwriting cards,
52:48
even though there's huge ROI on that personal touch, but creating some sort of automation
52:53
in there is absolutely necessary.
52:58
You know, I think with any of this, what's so hard about doing business in this day and
53:04
age is that things change so quickly and people tend to get distracted because there's
53:12
so many shiny objects and you, you're one of the rare, rare people and this is why you
53:19
and I are friends is you're really going out there, you're trying to teach people things
53:24
that are hard to learn and that take time to learn and they need to perfect them and
53:29
they're super smart strategies, but the other 99.9% of the people in our space in real estate
53:37
and mortgage, they're trying to sell us easy buttons and it simply doesn't exist.
53:42
There's no such thing as an easy button, the stuff is hard and you have to choose something.
53:49
I think you always have to be working on the immediate, you know, you have to close loans
53:53
today, but this is where I say it's harder because there's this learning curve you have
53:59
to learn to reengage with consumers in today's market.
54:04
You as a consumer, we as consumers, we make buying decisions totally differently today
54:11
than we did 10 years ago, totally differently.
54:15
Consumers are so empowered, we can say yes, no back space, close that website, we don't
54:22
have to, we're not limited to the choices that are geographically convenient to us anymore.
54:29
We can go online and find the cheapest price and Amazon might have it there by 3 o'clock
54:34
today.
54:35
It just depends on where their distribution center is, you know, it's a different, it's
54:39
a different world out there and you've got to, so I think you have to, anybody concerned
54:46
about this stuff and you touched on this and I know this is one of your philosophies,
54:52
you have to, you have to be willing to invest time into developing these new emerging markets,
55:01
new emerging contact strategies and conversion strategies and nurture strategies at the same
55:09
time you're doing what you've always done.
55:12
So that's kind of why I'm saying it, for me, it's twice as much work as it's ever been.
55:19
You know, if you're going to go into something like this and if you're going to get into
55:26
internet marketing and online marketing, that's in addition to what you already do to make
55:31
a living because it's seriously going to take, it's this learning curve.
55:37
There's absolutely no way around it.
55:40
So there's no way to get around the learning curve.
55:44
So that's just going to take patience, trial, testing, measuring, tweaking, you know, re-launching,
55:53
it's a process and it's a whole new set of, it's a whole new mindset and a whole new set
55:59
of skills that you need to develop and it takes time.
56:02
Yes.
56:03
So don't look for the easy button.
56:04
If you press the button and you don't get rich, don't give up because the button was
56:10
a lie, the strategy is probably, it's probably very relevant and it probably works.
56:16
Yeah, and we so much want to believe in the easy button.
56:21
It's very attractive and intoxicating, but I think, you know, we've all, hopefully, you
56:26
know, been down that road enough times to realize if it's that easy, right?
56:30
Everybody would be wildly successful.
56:32
And the truth is, right?
56:34
So no, I love that.
56:35
Way to kind of button it up.
56:36
Okay, we're almost out of time, a couple of minutes left, but I do have like two rapid
56:40
fire questions to throw at you.
56:42
So I'm just curious on your take on this because obviously you're, you're really tapped
56:46
into what's going on technology related to consumers.
56:49
All right.
56:50
First question.
56:51
Quick and rocket loans.
56:54
Thumbs up, thumbs down.
56:55
Question mark makes an impact, takes market share.
56:58
What's your take on that?
57:02
That's a great question.
57:03
I've been having that conversation a lot lately.
57:07
It's, I think that for me, I'm actually excited about it because that's more
57:13
business for me.
57:15
I get a lot of traffic.
57:16
I get a lot of traffic from people that talk to the customer service agents at, at
57:22
Quick and Loans, the, the, to say that those are loan officers and that's a mortgage company.
57:30
It's really, they skim the, the cream off the top of the cream.
57:35
And that's all they're going for.
57:36
And they spend billions of dollars to do it, but they make a good ROI on it.
57:41
It's not the market I'm in.
57:42
I'm not concerned about it at all.
57:44
I get, I get calls every day from people that said that the Quick and Loan Officer
57:48
told them that their computer told them that they don't qualify, but they don't know
57:52
anything beyond that.
57:53
Well, no, I mean, and that's not, that's not a dig on anybody that works there, but
57:57
they don't hire for that.
57:58
No, I don't.
57:59
They don't hire people with years of experience, they hire people to answer films and, and punch
58:04
keys.
58:05
Yeah.
58:06
So, um, you know, I think the reality is, I think it's smart.
58:12
I love where the technology is going, because when the technology gets cheap enough to be
58:16
able to make, you know, to make a good and automated underwriting decision with 90% accuracy
58:25
for 5% of your database, I mean, that's, that's pretty sexy to me.
58:31
I love the fact that that's where technology is going is going to places that can, that
58:37
can make it an easier process for the consumer.
58:41
Now the reality is, is that going to help more or less consumers.
58:44
I think it's going to help less consumers, because you're setting yourself up for, if you're
58:50
going under the, the, the implication that we're going to be able to give you an approval,
58:56
we, anybody who's been in the industry knows that that almost never works.
59:03
Once you get the paste up, what, wait a minute, what's, what's this?
59:08
What's this over time?
59:09
What's this?
59:10
You know, there's always something else.
59:12
So when you're basically promising a pain-free mortgage experience, the first time that
59:18
pain bubbles its way up, and then if you don't have an expert there to help walk you through
59:24
that pain, then, then now, quick and has a reputation of, you know, not being able to
59:30
help.
59:31
But they, they don't really care.
59:33
I mean, their business model isn't designed around referrals, it's around one and
59:37
now.
59:38
You know, it's how many people can I get through, get in, get done, get out.
59:43
It's not the same type of experience.
59:45
So love the technology.
59:49
I don't think it's a bad thing at all.
59:50
I, I, I, I, I like it.
59:53
I think the easier that people think that it is, the more they need people like me.
59:57
There you go.
59:58
Awesome.
59:59
For a dose of reality.
1:00:00
All right.
1:00:01
Last one I guess just for sake of time.
1:00:03
Facebook or Twitter, and I know there's no context around that, but it's two places,
1:00:11
two places.
1:00:12
I don't spend that much time on absolutely by far learning Facebook and Facebook's marketing,
1:00:22
power editors and marketing tools, learning how to leverage their insights, putting a cookie
1:00:29
on your website, running, you know, we're pulling the demographics on your, on your,
1:00:36
your traffic.
1:00:38
Facebook has, has so far and above everybody else, some of the greatest marketing and segmenting
1:00:45
and insight tools that are out there today, and it's still inexpensive.
1:00:51
So I, I don't see, I don't see how I can sell mortgages over Twitter, but I still think
1:01:00
Facebook is an incredibly powerful tool.
1:01:02
I think if you're going on there, telling people about the loans that you've closed, and
1:01:08
I still think that's kind of annoying.
1:01:10
I, I spend most of my time on Facebook and private groups, but as a marketer, Facebook
1:01:19
as a marketing platformer, as a way to communicate with your potential clients, super,
1:01:27
super fascinating, haven't cracked it yet, but it's definitely something that I'm putting
1:01:33
a lot of effort and energy into right now.
1:01:35
Well, that's, that's a great summary, actually.
1:01:37
And it's mostly, just, it's mostly putting, it's mostly putting education out there.
1:01:41
Yes, I was just going to say.
1:01:42
It's like, hey, how do I buy after bankruptcy?
1:01:44
Right.
1:01:45
I'm able to target that person, target that first time home buyer, and advertising a webinar
1:01:51
that says the top three, top three ways to buy a home with no money down in California,
1:01:58
you know, and, and, and checking those audience insights and getting them to sign up for a
1:02:02
webinar, that, that kind of thing.
1:02:05
I think there's, I think there's a super powerful strategy there.
1:02:08
Yeah, it's just another place to drive that engagement and deliver that content marketing,
1:02:12
like you said, to be relevant.
1:02:14
Awesome.
1:02:15
Well, this has been great.
1:02:16
I know you are busy and probably got a few more loans in your pipeline since we've been
1:02:20
talking.
1:02:21
So you need to get at those.
1:02:22
Yeah.
1:02:23
Once again, though, how direct people to your page, which would be a great learning experience
1:02:28
for them.
1:02:29
If you don't mind, I've already alluded to it during this call already, findmywayhome.com.
1:02:33
Sure.
1:02:34
Any other places you want to direct people or is that good?
1:02:38
No, that's good for now.
1:02:41
I'm, I'm working on a new, working in a new startup right now.
1:02:46
It'll actually probably be launched by the explode conference.
1:02:52
I think April 19th is Orange County.
1:02:56
So I'll be out there talking about some stuff and talking about my new company, but yeah,
1:03:01
I'm building a new mortgage company right now, kind of around everything that we've learned
1:03:07
and, and, and kind of leveraging all the stuff that I've done to help, you know, to employ
1:03:14
people that don't have the time to necessarily do it all themselves, but still grasp the
1:03:18
concept and know how to operate in that kind of an environment where you've got these
1:03:22
trust-based online leads coming in.
1:03:25
So no, lots of stuff coming up, but findmywayhome is a good place.
1:03:29
Okay.
1:03:30
I'm always hanging out there right in articles, answering comments and all that other stuff.
1:03:34
You definitely are.
1:03:35
So you'll get some new stalkers, hopefully, as a result of this.
1:03:39
And just to clarify too.
1:03:40
Sure.
1:03:41
And people can call me.
1:03:42
Yeah.
1:03:43
People can call me anytime.
1:03:44
You know, send me an email, reach out if you have a question about something.
1:03:47
I've, I've never had a secret in my entire life.
1:03:50
I'll tell anybody everything that I do, because I know most people won't do it.
1:03:56
So, but, but a lot of times I'll find super smart people like you and you'll come back
1:04:01
and say, well, that was great.
1:04:02
Check this out.
1:04:03
And then you start that, you know, you create those relationships where you have other
1:04:07
like-minded people and, you know, we're all on little bit different islands, but we're
1:04:12
in the same ocean and we can help each other out.
1:04:14
So, I really invite that.
1:04:16
Well, thank you for that.
1:04:17
And just a quick note for those listening.
1:04:19
The explode conference that Scott's referring to, he's speaking at in Anaheim, California
1:04:24
on April 19.
1:04:25
There's a bunch of those shows happening across the country.
1:04:27
If you want to learn more about them, go to explodys.com and by the way, explode is without
1:04:32
the e.
1:04:33
It's exp.
1:04:34
L-O-D-E.
1:04:35
This.
1:04:36
Explodys.com.
1:04:37
And hopefully they're coming to a city near you.
1:04:38
We'll put it in the show notes.
1:04:40
That is it, my friend.
1:04:41
Scott Shang.
1:04:42
Thank you so much for making time.
1:04:43
This is a class in and of itself, man.
1:04:45
So, thanks again.
1:04:46
Yeah.
1:04:47
Okay.
1:04:48
Thanks, Jeff.
1:04:49
Have a great one.
1:04:50
All right.
1:04:51
Thanks everybody for listening.
1:04:52
So, you mortgage marketing radio.
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