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What to Do With the Ego? · Life In Flow Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Life in Flow podcast.
• 0:03
  The three of us,
• 0:05
  Yulia,
• 0:05
  Polina,
• 0:06
  and Irina,
• 0:07
  are exploring what Life in Flow and Flow in Life is.
• 0:12
  Join us as we experiment,
• 0:15
  test our diverse hypotheses,
• 0:17
  and have fun in the process.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Will we find an answer?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
• 0:30
  We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that the
• 0:35
  conversation itself
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: becomes a group flow experience.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Go beyond the intellectual information.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Listen with your whole body.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: and notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
• 1:05
  Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind,
• 1:11
  body,
• 1:12
  and energy flow together.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome again to the Life & Flow podcast to our new episode.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Here we are again
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Julia, Polina, and I, Irina, will be steering the flow today.
• 1:33
  And today we will be exploring the question which I formulated
• 1:40
  as what should we do
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: with the ego?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: And let me explain why I decided to play with this question today.
• 1:54
  You have probably noticed that Yulia have mentioned several
• 1:58
  times that she is doing
• 2:02
  improv and it is a very important experience for her and
• 2:09
  related to the group flow
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: experiences and generally the sense of flow.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: But she is not the only one who is doing improv.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: I also have quite an extensive experience in improvisation,
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: but it's not in theatre,
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: but in writing.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 2:32
  I participate in several writing groups where we do these
• 2:38
  improvisational exercises
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: when we write together.
• 2:45
  collective co-creative writing in the moment when you don't
• 2:50
  have any possibilities
• 2:52
  to edit what you write and you have to take in the prompt that
• 2:56
  the others give to
• 2:57
  you and continue writing the stories that someone else has
• 3:01
  started and what i have
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: noticed that very often people really
• 3:13
  try to push through their stories,
• 3:18
  ignoring really what has been written by the others.
• 3:24
  So it's like there is this necessity in the mind of the creator
• 3:30
  to get out into the
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: world what I feel,
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: what I think,
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: what I want to express.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: And this is very important for me that
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: The others will see what I have created.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: I also have participated quite a lot in many creative thinking sessions,
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: group sessions,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: what people tend to call brainstorming.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Of course,
• 4:08
  one of the main rules of any creative thinking group sessions
• 4:16
  is that when we
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: create ideas,
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: when we explore options,
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: we don't evaluate them.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: We suspend the judgment, we suspend any critique, but sooner or later,
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: we still need to evaluate the ideas that have been created.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: And what I have noticed,
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: I have noticed even in myself,
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: but also in the others and other participants,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: that when we start evaluating,
• 4:46
  still following the certain rules that help to ensure that we
• 4:52
  evaluate the best
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: ideas,
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  that we don't discard the ideas that seem crazy and that are
• 4:59
  too original,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: But still, you're like, and we have like the bunch of ideas.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: They're not signed.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, in theory, no one knows who created what idea.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: But we still remember, this idea is mine.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: This is what I suggested.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that idea is that of that person.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: And when we...
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: participate in this collective evaluation.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: We don't evaluate the people,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: this is your ideas and it's good and this is my idea and it's bad,
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: or they're around.
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  But still,
• 5:39
  there is this someone inside of us who is vigilant about,
• 5:45
  will my idea be picked?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Will the others will appreciate how good my ideas are?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I also have talked a lot with different creative professionals,
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: and it's actually very hot discussions always in the area of professional
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: creativity.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: What is better, group creativity or individual creativity?
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  SPEAKER_02: And there are pros and cons for both modalities.
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  SPEAKER_02: People tend to say that,
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  SPEAKER_02: of course,
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  SPEAKER_02: when you create a group,
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  SPEAKER_02: you have much more varieties of perspectives and points of view,
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  so the ideas that come out are much richer and there is much
• 6:37
  more flexibility.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: But still,
• 6:41
  many professional creatives I have talked to have affirmed that
• 6:47
  they still prefer
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: creating alone.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: So there is this need in us to express into the world what I want to say,
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: what I want to create,
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  SPEAKER_02: what I want to express.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: we also...
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think this theme has been transparent quite a lot in our conversations.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's fair to say that the ego,
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: that we may call it selfishness,
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: this like my,
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  SPEAKER_02: I,
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: me,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: that would be something that would...
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: One of the main factors...
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  SPEAKER_02: that would block us from entering the flow and especially group flow.
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  SPEAKER_02: Because if everyone in the group is just like pushing into like,
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: We need to do what I want.
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  SPEAKER_02: There is no emergent factor.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: We need to leave the ego at the door,
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  SPEAKER_02: they say,
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: for the group flow to function,
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: for group creativity to function.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: But it is not that easy, as I have noticed.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: So this is what I want us to explore.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: What should we do?
• 8:15
  with this ego that on the other hand might prevent us from
• 8:22
  being in flow and
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: especially from flowing with life but at the same time i don't believe in
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: The discourse is very popular in the so-called spiritual world,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: that we need to get rid of the ego,
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: that the ego is bad.
• 8:45
  This is what is stopping us from being one with the universe
• 8:50
  and just flowing with life.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: So this is the premise of our today's discussion.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: And as usual, we will start with the game.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: I will tweak the rules of the game a little bit today.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: So here's what we do.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: I will be timing our interventions.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: So each of us will have one minute to speak.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I will define the order.
• 9:23
  I will start as usual just to give you the tone and then Yulia
• 9:28
  will continue and
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: then Polina will go on and we will do three rounds.
• 9:37
  So basically I will give you the word and each of us during one
• 9:42
  minute can say
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: whatever comes to her.
• 9:48
  in association with this word it may be something coherent
• 9:53
  thoughts or it may be
• 9:55
  just like separate words you may perfectly stay silent if this
• 10:02
  is what's emerging
• 10:03
  for you at this moment there is only one rule well two rules
• 10:08
  the first one you
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: can't say i and you so
• 10:16
  there can't be anything personal in what we're saying you're
• 10:19
  just you're like
• 10:20
  expressing what's emerging for you in the field at this moment
• 10:26
  regarding like the
• 10:28
  topic that um we're exploring and while the other is speaking
• 10:36
  instead of thinking
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: of what would i reply to it etc just take in
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: what you're receiving,
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  listen with your whole body and just be with the experience and
• 10:52
  then let the
• 10:54
  response or continuation come to you the moment when it's your
• 11:01
  turn to speak.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: And the word of the game is selfishness.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I will start
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  So selfishness seems to be something that is about putting the
• 11:33
  self at the first
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  SPEAKER_02: place before anything else.
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  SPEAKER_02: It seems like
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: To be having something with defining and defending the borders.
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  SPEAKER_02: Being quite preoccupied with the borders of the self.
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  SPEAKER_02: To define the limits of the self.
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  SPEAKER_02: Here is me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Selfishness.
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  SPEAKER_01: Somehow fish was standing out and then defending borders.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then there was a house, a fisherman's hut.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this house was at the shore of the ocean.
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  and the ocean kind of was or is a border only the water is not
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  for having and water
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  knows no borders so water can choose to take the place where
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  the fisherman's hut is
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  SPEAKER_00: Water is very selfish and has a continuous unending border.
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  SPEAKER_00: Its border is always moving and enveloping whatever is in its grasp.
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  Selfishly tries to get into all the crevices and all of the
• 13:48
  places it can get into.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it chips away at things that it feels like chipping away at.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is selfish by nature, therefore it just is a force of nature.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just being itself and therefore it cannot have any qualities.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Being selfish is to be oneself.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: That seems to be an interesting idea.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time, does it work the other way around?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Being oneself, does it mean to be selfish?
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  SPEAKER_02: And is it the reason why in the society
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  We are always against of being selfish because no one wants
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  anyone to be oneself.
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  and when no one wants the other to be oneself what is the
• 15:26
  reaction of the other is
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  SPEAKER_01: to be amplified one or amplified self and
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  the self as water that goes into every crevice and that
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  consists of such tiny parts
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  SPEAKER_01: that you that those parts cannot be controlled so the dam of
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  not being allowed to be one but one must be one even if it's
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  not allowed you cannot
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  control and maintain that which is boundless and boundaryless
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  and has so many parts
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  SPEAKER_00: to it and it just must be itself because if we
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  SPEAKER_00: are not allowed to be selfish and full of self.
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  SPEAKER_00: That means that we are constantly flowing into the other,
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  SPEAKER_00: but we're not flowing from a sense of self into the other.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're flowing from a sense of push into someone else.
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  SPEAKER_00: So how can we possibly be
• 17:03
  truly helpful and help to fill someone else if we're not first
• 17:08
  filling ourselves in
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  every possible way to every possible course blowing one into
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  each other if one is
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  SPEAKER_02: not allowed to be oneself and it gets amplified
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  we get in the end the amplified distorted selfishness that
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  wants to occupy the
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  whole space of the other flowing into the other because it's
• 18:01
  not allowed to be
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: oneself
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  so in the end no one occupies the place of oneself because
• 18:13
  everyone wants to occupy
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: the place of the other occupying places place of the other
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  and when expanding losing your own structure instead of being
• 18:51
  fluid evaporating or
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: becoming icy or snowy and then the space cracks
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's no longer there.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so other places that also.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the crack just grows and reverberates into the future.
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  SPEAKER_00: And causes even more dissonance in the field, in the self.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it cuts you off,
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: cuts us off from being able to occupy even more of ourselves,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: like the pleasure that selfishness can bring.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: the pleasure of being for thyself,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: of thyself,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: in thyself,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: doesn't that deserve just as much occupation?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: That has been a beautiful trip.
• 20:30
  and i think it it did have some quite very interesting stuff
• 20:38
  that let's see how it
• 20:40
  weaves itself into our conversation so now that we like allowed
• 20:51
  ourselves to be one
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: selves without borders flowing into each other with pleasure
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Let's turn to our questions.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: And following our previous traditions,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: and maybe we will fall again into a rabbit hole,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: but I think it's necessary.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Let's start with the definitions.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: So let's start with exploring what is ego.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: According to your worldview, what is ego and what is its function?
• 21:41
  i'd say for me and i want to say that i'm not experienced with
• 21:48
  um you know like
• 21:50
  lots of material on on the topic so it's kind of um may
• 21:58
  whatever contradict a lot
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: of stuff but to me ego is like
• 22:04
  interface my human interface for living and dealing um with
• 22:10
  people and with the
• 22:12
  society civilization kind of that's the my um appearance it's
• 22:24
  it's it's it's how
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: people are able to also
• 22:33
  interact with me make sense of me exchange with me it's not the
• 22:42
  only way of
• 22:42
  exchange but that's like the most um universal i think if we
• 22:47
  talk about the
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: whatever all the structures social economic
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: I actually totally agree.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think I use the same term,
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: the interface,
• 23:07
  like something that allows oneself to connect and to operate in
• 23:14
  the world.
• 23:15
  Like the interface in the computer allows us to use different
• 23:23
  apps without having
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: to code directly.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that descriptor, the interface.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the interface that is made up of many different things.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: I also feel like it's an interface that is not static.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: It does fluctuate and shift and lives a bit on a spectrum.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Depending on who is at the controls of the interface,
• 24:15
  we will get a slightly different version of this thing that we
• 24:19
  call the persona of
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: this human.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I would also say it's kind of the gateway between consciousness and
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: unconsciousness,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: which will again,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: create an output,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: depending on who's running the show and who's at the interface control.
• 24:58
  I love this,
• 25:01
  this idea of the gateway,
• 25:03
  the gateway within consciousness and unconsciousness.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is very accurate,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: but I have never framed it this way,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: so thank you,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: that's,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: that's a very great idea.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Anything else that's immersion that we want to add?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that one was easy.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: We haven't fallen into the rabbit hole.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: We're still on the surface.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: I guess one thing that I wanted to say is that it is dynamic,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: as Paulina mentioned,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: and it's a product for much of
• 26:04
  both the many things that um go on inside some subconscious the
• 26:11
  histories but at
• 26:12
  the other time it responds to the outside conditions so it's
• 26:18
  kind of i guess
• 26:20
  shape-shifting going back to the previous episode ego that's
• 26:28
  shape-shifting
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: That is also a very interesting idea.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: I love it already.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: We could even say that the ego is a shape shift.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: It is all of the different parts of us,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: conscious,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: unconscious,
• 26:48
  the entire spectrum shape shifting into whatever is being
• 26:52
  presented as the output
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: from moment to moment.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: I say output because it's a very sophisticated piece of machine.
• 27:09
  Yeah,
• 27:10
  so like they say that at least some of the scientists have this
• 27:19
  idea.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: So there is this theory that our...
• 27:24
  um identity like our idea of ourselves is the narrative that is
• 27:31
  actually being
• 27:32
  formed in the moment and it is constantly reshaping itself
• 27:39
  depending on the
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: circumstances etc and actually
• 27:53
  I specifically didn't go back to my old definitions and old
• 27:58
  ways of thinking about it.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Cause when you come from,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: let's say the psych world,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of specific nuance,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: rigid approach to all of it.
• 28:09
  But the more I've expanded into all these different practices
• 28:13
  and things that I've
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: learned,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: the less clear the old definitions become.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
• 28:24
  also the less static my own persona becomes but not in a way
• 28:30
  where it's a sense of
• 28:32
  losing self it's more like there's more acceptance of the
• 28:37
  fluidity of it all of
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: whatever's presenting in the moment especially if you're of course still
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: potentially having the intention of
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: being connected to,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: your most authentic,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: your most resourced,
• 28:55
  your most connected to whatever it is that you want to be
• 28:58
  connected to aspects of
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: self so that together as a symphony of self,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: you could really play the most coherent,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: beautiful,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: connective piece of human music.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I wonder... Go ahead, Yola.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Pauline,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: when you were saying,
• 29:32
  and now it's not that I'm kind of like losing the essence or
• 29:37
  losing the shape,
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm becoming more fluid.
• 29:40
  And it took me back to the water that somehow emerged during
• 29:45
  the exploration of selfishness.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: It just did.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: So which makes me just say a couple of things about water,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: and that is that we're 99% water by molecule count.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this is to me like so crazy.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's really, it's because it's so tiny, the water.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it changes shape so amazingly, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: It can penetrate into places where nothing else can.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: And also now I'm reading this book, which is called The Dirt.
• 30:25
  And the dirt is basically also the soil,
• 30:29
  but there is also a case why it's called the dirt.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the guy there,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: he says basically that terrestrial life is nothing else,
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: that water that found its way.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: like outside of the ocean, able to make its own waves outside.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so this,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: the ego,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: which brings me to like,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: really,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: we are probably supposed to be like flowing in and out.
• 31:16
  But of course,
• 31:16
  there is then the question of having a container and having
• 31:22
  some stability.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like the tendency inherent, I guess, to flow.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: For the ego, for the ego to flow.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: The idea of the container that gives the certain stability to the ego,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's also an important piece.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because if we were just fluid,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: just only water flowing into each other,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: then there wouldn't be any interface.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just everything mixed.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: So yes,
• 32:24
  there should be a container that defines the borders of like
• 32:31
  different things in
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: the system.
• 32:36
  But as these containers are shape-shifting depending on how
• 32:41
  they are getting in
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: contact with each other,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: they are not totally fixed.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: But they're still containers.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I press really hard with my fist into another container,
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: then that container is going to change shape.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: But also the water is going to, you know, find another way somewhere.
• 33:11
  And maybe there will be a crack,
• 33:16
  maybe it won't,
• 33:17
  but maybe there will be like a force.
• 33:23
  you could create disbursement and actually break the original
• 33:27
  form and then create
• 33:28
  five other forms out of it but also salt water and fresh water
• 33:32
  don't mix so you can
• 33:34
  actually stay liquid and still interact as if it as if this
• 33:38
  form when you're in
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: water shape say it again like what salt water and and um fresh water
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: they seem to have form because they don't mix.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it is water interacting with itself as if there is a border.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: So they don't just get completely mixed up from what Ina was describing.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or like oil and water.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's liquid, but it's... Well, oil, of course, is a different substance.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: But fresh water and salt water are water, but they don't mix, right?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: You could be in water shape,
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: and still interact with one,
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: like the two different things.
• 34:26
  I'm not sure that they don't mix completely,
• 34:29
  but okay,
• 34:30
  let's not go into physics.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: But yes,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: still,
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: until there is this water,
• 34:38
  still there is a certain type of the container that contains
• 34:42
  one and the other.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 34:45
  But I like this idea of the fluidity of it all and of
• 34:50
  shape-shifting because it
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: takes me personally,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: To the next question I wanted to explore.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: How does your ego helps you in your life?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: And how does it messes with you?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: And when you say ego, you mean what exactly?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Just what we have discussed.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but the three of us have different definitions.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: I thought that we have agreed in the end.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 35:50
  Okay,
• 35:50
  let's put it on the table according to your perception in what
• 35:56
  parts we disagreed.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like the word ego, period.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm experiencing resistance.
• 36:04
  That word,
• 36:04
  to me,
• 36:06
  brings a sense of old perceptions and very rigid data
• 36:12
  interpretation.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure that word stands for what it actually represents.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I had a reaction.
• 36:25
  But if there's a different way we could talk about that word,
• 36:28
  then I would have an easier time.
• 36:33
  well i think like we have found a different way because you you
• 36:38
  yourself said that
• 36:39
  you didn't want to bring the old definitions that means that
• 36:43
  the definitions we
• 36:45
  voiced out are different from your old definitions this is what
• 36:49
  i understood so
• 36:50
  interface can we use the word interface like what what are we
• 36:55
  talking about
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: identity
• 37:00
  i guess not more as far as i understand it's the interface that
• 37:06
  kind of like
• 37:07
  individuates you specifically and allows you to do certain
• 37:13
  things in society it's i
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: guess more has to do with like feeling
• 37:22
  self and selfish and i don't mean it as a negative or positive
• 37:27
  thing but like
• 37:29
  selfish kind of like being self and that's why um doing certain
• 37:38
  things yeah i guess
• 37:40
  it it would be identity but not only identity it's also the
• 37:44
  persona the word the
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: persona that have been mentioned but
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think the persona,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: the way at least I understand it,
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: it would be just what we present to the world.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think the ego involves also like the self-identity,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: like how I perceive myself,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: like what I identify as me versus like not me.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: with this fluid definition and the way that I understand it,
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going back to our conversation on being valuable.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we ended,
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: I ended that conversation with,
• 38:35
  I don't like making a statement that being valuable sucks
• 38:40
  because it is stressful.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: And yet I have
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: things that I want to kind of like bring into this word world.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I choose to show up as valuable,
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: with these things and,
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: do,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: do whatever it takes.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's totally bringing my ego into the ego,
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: into the picture and saying,
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm going to make this claim and you're going to listen to me.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, um,
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:17
  And so I consciously choose many times being aware that I am
• 39:24
  now using my ego and
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: or being selfish or whatever to achieve my goals,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: with my kids,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: with my parents,
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: with people like at work professionally.
• 39:44
  i do it all the time and i guess it sucks when i'm not aware of
• 39:54
  it this is when
• 39:57
  you're not aware of what exactly of my that i'm doing it like
• 40:03
  from this position of
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: ego that i'm trying to prove something or to
• 40:10
  uh i don't know but i'm not necessarily assert something but
• 40:15
  i'm trying to be
• 40:16
  something without realizing it okay and so yeah this i mean
• 40:25
  it's actually it's uh
• 40:28
  yeah i don't want to go into that rabbit hole further so
• 40:33
  there's not something not
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: formed but yeah
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm totally fine with my ego.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm also fine when I use it with awareness.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, there are times when I use it without awareness.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then after, I was like, oh, that sucked.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I didn't like it.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: But what happens?
• 40:59
  So like,
• 40:59
  okay,
• 41:00
  the ego helps us to achieve our goals,
• 41:04
  which makes total sense to me.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: But when you are using this impetus to achieve my goals,
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: to leave my mark in the world,
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: but I'm not aware of,
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: what I'm doing, how I'm doing.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: So what's the problem with the lack of awareness in your discourse?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: OK, I'm going to give an example with improv, for example.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: And as you mentioned,
• 41:40
  it's very important that people play along with each other and
• 41:48
  don't hold on to
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: their own idea because
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: it seems to be so brilliant.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it is even brilliant.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so still, even in a good improv game, people still have egos.
• 42:03
  They have their personas and they also are aware that one idea
• 42:12
  is more fitting for
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: the occasion and one idea is less fitting for the occasion.
• 42:17
  And it's with that awareness,
• 42:21
  you kind of like tip the scale a little bit of your idea.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's fine.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: But when you go and you just start to insist,
• 42:33
  that honestly your idea is the best or the most fitting for the
• 42:38
  occasion then then
• 42:39
  you're in denial then you lose your self-awareness uh and and
• 42:45
  then it's not good
• 42:46
  for anyone because the play it's you know like it's it's not
• 42:52
  gonna be playful it's
• 42:55
  not gonna be interesting in improv and after you're gonna be
• 43:00
  regretting it
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it's in life also.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: will it be correct to say,
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: according to what you have described,
• 43:12
  that when we lose the awareness of how we are using our ego to
• 43:21
  achieve our goals in
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: the world,
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: so we are losing also this connection
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: to all this interconnectedness.
• 43:32
  We're losing the awareness of our interconnectedness and hence
• 43:36
  we're losing the
• 43:37
  possibility of wading into this flow of life and how everything
• 43:44
  is flowing into
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: each other.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because we're just like... Kind of.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I can choose to play a bitch
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like when I consciously play a bitch,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: even if I identify with a bitch at this moment,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's totally fine.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's my decision.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as I really become a bitch,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: that means that something else took over,
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: then that's a problem.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: that also brings me,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: was it being,
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: it wasn't the being conversation that you said,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: when I'm not occupying my experience,
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: that means that something else is occupying.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, yes, exactly, yeah.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that is very interesting.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to feel into and figure out
• 44:52
  the how it works when so when you said you're when i'm playing
• 44:58
  a bitch versus i'm
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: being a bitch and so when i'm playing a bitch
• 45:07
  I am occupying the experience of playing into things that are
• 45:14
  bitchy,
• 45:15
  right?
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: But if I am being a bitch,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: then I'm no longer occupying the experience in some way,
• 45:22
  even though I'm actually more fully occupying the experience of
• 45:26
  being a bitch.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Can you help me with that?
• 45:29
  That's interesting,
• 45:30
  because there's something there,
• 45:31
  but I need a little bit more than land.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: So when I'm playing a bitch,
• 45:38
  that to me means that my mature adult self and the multifaceted
• 45:47
  personality that
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: also includes,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: in the framework of Bill Plotkin,
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: who I love a lot,
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: like a lot,
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: the spirit,
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: the soul,
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: everything.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is this self, which...
• 46:05
  is aware of all these things but chooses to act a certain way
• 46:11
  to choose like
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: persona personality um ego characteristic because this is the best way of
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: interfacing and but like if i become that thing
• 46:30
  It's like I lose the multidimensionality of my ego and myself
• 46:36
  and my personality.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I just go like full way into the bitch.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Then it sucks.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: I see.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: So what you're talking about is that self is actually driving the...
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: Self is at the control of the interface.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's...
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: higher up on the scale of consciousness.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like a self and consciousness kind of go hand in hand.
• 47:02
  And then there's a choice of occupying an aspect of what is
• 47:07
  available in your repertoire.
• 47:11
  And one of the personas in their repertoire happens to be a
• 47:14
  bitch and self is
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: driving,
• 47:16
  but it's also aware of itself and it's aware of this persona
• 47:20
  and it's aware of the
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: experience of embodying it.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: Where's the ego then in that equation?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm using the bitch to get whatever I want.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: I guess that in the case,
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: like when the self is driving,
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: the ego is the whole repertoire of the whole,
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: like all personas that is available.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas when I am a bitch,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: so I am losing the choice and the control of the choice,
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: the ego reduces just to the bitch.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like the machine that no one controls.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: You just flow through.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe you didn't want that.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, Paulina, what about you?
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: How does your eager help you and how does it messes with you?
• 48:39
  And I'm sorry that I keep using this word,
• 48:43
  but you're like,
• 48:44
  it's an umbrella term.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry that I'm so sensitive to words, especially these days.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: You're always sensitive to my words that I choose.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a blame.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a blame.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: It just so happens that I always choose the word that triggers you.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: That I'm sensitive to.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have to think about that.
• 49:20
  I think I land with all of this very much in how Yula just
• 49:25
  described it and also
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: how I added to it a little bit and how you added to it a little bit.
• 49:36
  so definitely when i get hijacked by one of the personas or
• 49:42
  aspects of the
• 49:43
  repertoire uh that's how i get messed with because uh then it
• 49:48
  takes over the
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: controls and it doesn't have enough awareness to hold more things
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know, in, you know, like kind of hold more things.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it just colors over the entire experience,
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: how I can occupy that space,
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: how I can interact with whatever it is or whoever it is.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's funny because you actually do end up feeling...
• 50:23
  sometimes a lot more alive and energized by this persona like
• 50:29
  to a degree that
• 50:30
  maybe i don't always feel as on like you know like at the edge
• 50:38
  of the spectrum of
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: something as when i'm
• 50:42
  more operating from self so because there's a neutrality that
• 50:46
  comes with it and so
• 50:48
  then yes even if from self you're you're choosing one of the
• 50:53
  appropriate personas
• 50:54
  to play within the moment still the energy is different than
• 51:00
  when for example
• 51:03
  An angry self takes over and you just lose self and you just go
• 51:07
  into the anger and
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: it's like turns into rage.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then like the whole thing feels a lot more intense.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's hard to get out.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to be in it.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to get out of it.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: It takes time to recover.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how it messes with me.
• 51:23
  But the more I learn to be in this more fluid state and also to
• 51:29
  be fluid about the
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: different parts that I do have inside of me,
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: the more I interact with them and get more into a closer relationship,
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: I can see how
• 51:47
  it could be very beneficial to choose a certain aspect of
• 51:52
  yourself that would be
• 51:54
  either fun or beneficial to play with from still the self being
• 51:59
  at the controls so
• 52:03
  that you could have more of an embodied experience and also be
• 52:09
  present to more data
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: than just a persona.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely feels like more fun and more freeing and more fluid than
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like all those years ago when I was,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:28
  doing my master's in undergrad in psych and learning about the
• 52:31
  ego and identity.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so singular and so rigid and so prescriptive.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it felt like a cage.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas now,
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: the more fluid,
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: so the less stability there is,
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: because there is actually less stability,
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: the more fluid you become,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: there's less of that sense of edge,
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: And boundary or even like,
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Who am I really?
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: It depends because it'll change from moment to moment.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: Depends on how much self is at the controls,
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: how much how much I feel like being a bitch that day.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: like the more I allow myself to play with my personas,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: the more that relationship changes.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: So have I answered the question, at least in some way?
• 53:15
  in in some way i i take it so you know basically uh you you
• 53:21
  talk about the same
• 53:22
  thing that julia says like and and it helps me also to to bring
• 53:29
  more clarity to to
• 53:31
  my experience what i i was going to share so basically we are
• 53:35
  saying that like
• 53:38
  when the egos get hijacked by one of the personas and we fully
• 53:44
  identify ourselves
• 53:46
  with this persona says this is when it messes us up and the
• 53:49
  persona and the problem
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: might be different
• 53:54
  for each person so like but but the real problem is really this
• 54:01
  the hijacking the
• 54:02
  losing the control losing the the freedom of the choice that
• 54:11
  i'm choosing to be
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: that
• 54:14
  this persona at this moment,
• 54:17
  but I can choose to be different persona at a different moment.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: So like when I don't have a choice,
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: like I'm just a bitch or like in my case,
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm someone who needs to assert my value in the world.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: Then yeah, it's like we don't have choice.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have control.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have freedom.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: And whatever limitations the persona itself has,
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: we are stuck with these limits,
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: like the pains,
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: the wounds,
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: whatever.
• 55:03
  So I don't have any freedom and any fluidity and flexibility to
• 55:10
  connect to more resources.
• 55:14
  to become wider bigger bigger than the pain and the wound yeah
• 55:24
  and sometimes there
• 55:25
  is the experience or sorry sometimes there's the experience
• 55:28
  where you are being
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: hijacked and yet you're aware of the fact that you're being hijacked
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: And yet you cannot stop the hijack.
• 55:37
  And yet you have awareness of the fact that,
• 55:40
  okay,
• 55:40
  you are in hijack mode.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot stop it.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: But there is a bit of separation.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: So there is an aspect of self present in that.
• 55:49
  And that's a different,
• 55:51
  I think,
• 55:52
  mode when it comes to this thing that we're discussing.
• 55:56
  So that's also interesting because you haven't completely lost
• 55:59
  consciousness about this persona.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: But you have lost the controls.
• 56:06
  So you're aware of the fact that you've lost the controls,
• 56:09
  but you have lost the controls.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that's an interesting phenomenon.
• 56:14
  And also,
• 56:16
  whenever we talk about this type of topic,
• 56:18
  I always think back to really great movies.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: And what makes something a really great movie?
• 56:25
  Beyond the aesthetics and the set and the script and all that
• 56:30
  cool stuff,
• 56:30
  right?
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: That yes, must be really good.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: But really, it's the performance of the actor.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: And when the actor's choosing,
• 56:39
  just like I'm sure Yule can give us a lot of info about this
• 56:41
  from her improv,
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: when the actor is fully embodied in the character,
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: I always wonder,
• 56:52
  Is their self still at the controls or have they completely
• 56:56
  crossed over into what
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: I would call hijacked by that persona?
• 57:01
  Or is it the third state where there's still some consciousness
• 57:05
  at the interface,
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: but they're also fully embodying the controls?
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe it's a fourth state because you can feel it.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: It is like an embodied experience.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: When someone fully occupies their role and I'm watching it, it is like...
• 57:20
  just flow incarnate that's how i call it that's what it feels
• 57:25
  like to me yeah
• 57:28
  actually there's a a story a small story i want to share but in
• 57:33
  and i don't
• 57:34
  understand what you mean and i think it's it's but usually when
• 57:40
  there is mastery
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: then
• 57:44
  in actors that there is still like a little bit of
• 57:47
  consciousness so basically there
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: is this kind of like whole body fascia that is aware
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: That now almost all of you,
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: except this thin container,
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: is given to that personality who you are occupying.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's cool because if people,
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: in some experiences that I had on stage,
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: when people totally went there,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: it's just...
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: It starts to revolve around their personality.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a vortex that you feel drawn into.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: But there was something that happened.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was at this workshop that was called Somatic Theater.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't good.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, we were supposed to do improv scenes.
• 58:47
  it was related to water and some personalities and so um you
• 58:52
  know what two people
• 58:53
  started acting and one very obviously and he mentioned at the
• 59:00
  beginning that you
• 59:01
  know i'm very new to this i'm in a lot of stress um like i feel
• 59:07
  that there are a
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: lot of emotions that cannot get out and so he literally
• 59:14
  got hijacked by his really aggressive emotions and so it just
• 59:21
  like got to point and
• 59:23
  there was like a girl who was playing with him where they
• 59:26
  started throwing um
• 59:28
  blankets at each other even pushing each other and he was like
• 59:33
  what the huh um and
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: then at the end of it he said he did lose a little bit of the control so
• 59:43
  i i guess it brings me to this kind of like to the mastery of
• 59:49
  the self-awareness
• 59:51
  and to me now it feels like it can be really like very thin
• 59:58
  like in actors but very
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: robust and it keeps under almost all circumstances and then it can be
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: You just pushed a little bit, you know, by the wind.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: And this is your whole self-awareness goes into pieces.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: Wait,
• 1:00:19
  so I actually love it because that kind of helped to clarify
• 1:00:23
  how I was talking
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: about a little bit better.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we're talking about hijacking versus embodiment.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's where that.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're also talking about acting versus embodiment.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because acting is kind of like a push into something.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're not fully embodying it, you're acting it.
• 1:00:45
  And there's,
• 1:00:46
  I can sense when an actor is acting versus embodying the role.
• 1:00:50
  It's a very perceptible somatic shift and it's way less
• 1:00:55
  believable when you could
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: tell someone's acting.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know what those pieces are that make that up.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so the acting versus embodiment.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then you said mastery and self-awareness.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: and the very thin but robust layer.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: But can we talk about the acting versus embodiment?
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give more on that?
• 1:01:25
  You mean the superficial acting that you can tell that this is
• 1:01:27
  acting and not embodiment?
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: But that's there because it's not embodied.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's so funny that we're talking about humanity,
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: like personality,
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: ego,
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: and yet we're talking about it from the perspective of acting,
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: is like being fake.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: Remember one of the episodes,
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: like acting could be,
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: or even improv could be like considered being fake,
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: but actually mirrors something very,
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: very real.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: If acting didn't mirror something real,
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_02: we wouldn't hang up on the movies and on the famous actors.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: So funny.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, but you wanted to dive deeper into the acting versus embodiment.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you already answered it.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like, yeah.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you're satisfied.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm satisfied for now.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_02: I had several things...
• 1:02:42
  that i'm not sure that i will be able to catch up you know to
• 1:02:46
  make them coherent
• 1:02:48
  but one thing that i realized while you were talking that
• 1:02:52
  you're like now i don't
• 1:02:54
  like a word and i don't really like the word control that we
• 1:02:59
  have used quite a lot
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: uh i think
• 1:03:05
  like in the whole this setup of the self choosing like the
• 1:03:11
  persona to incarnate to
• 1:03:13
  embody etc it's not so much about control but the freedom of
• 1:03:21
  choice mm-hmm
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then it also has to do,
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_02: when you talked,
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_02: you asked the show,
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_02: what is the difference then?
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I may be aware, but it's still, like, I'm fully aware.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm aware that I'm hand-jacked, but I can't stop it.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: But still there is awareness.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it made me think about the, again, the flow state.
• 1:03:56
  like you can't say in the flow that you are in control of the
• 1:04:01
  process because you
• 1:04:03
  are one with the process you can't say that you are hijacked
• 1:04:08
  either although
• 1:04:11
  because there is there is a certain awareness although it's not
• 1:04:16
  the normal kind
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_02: So you still have the mastery,
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_02: the discernment,
• 1:04:24
  because one of the requisites of the flow state is that you're
• 1:04:28
  able to discern
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_02: whether you are doing well or not well.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: So there is the component of the evaluation, and it's an important one.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: But it's just a different level of awareness.
• 1:04:49
  which also made me remember that when paulina mentioned that
• 1:04:57
  it's like this is at
• 1:05:00
  least what i heard from what you said pauline that like when
• 1:05:04
  you are hijacked the
• 1:05:06
  the intensity of the experience seems like much more vivid
• 1:05:10
  rather than when you
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_02: when yourself is like managing the situation.
• 1:05:18
  So like,
• 1:05:19
  okay,
• 1:05:19
  like there is a distance,
• 1:05:21
  but I remember this is what I'm always,
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_02: arguing in the discussions around meditation,
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_02: when people blame that,
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: when you start meditate,
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_02: you,
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_02: lose the flavor of life because you,
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: you become distanced and you,
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_02: you feel less.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember when I started practicing with these exercises of
• 1:05:55
  You're like observing your emotions from the position of your
• 1:06:03
  inner observer.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you are in an emotional experience.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you sort of split in two.
• 1:06:13
  There is an observer who observes all the emotions that you're
• 1:06:17
  experiencing.
• 1:06:17
  And there is still the one,
• 1:06:21
  the persona,
• 1:06:22
  some kind of persona that experiences the emotions.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_02: And what my experience was is that in those cases,
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_02: when I was observing how I was experiencing those emotions,
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_02: the intensity of the experience was much higher.
• 1:06:50
  than in the cases when I'm just totally in when I'm hijacked
• 1:06:54
  and there is no one else.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just totally in the persona.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking now,
• 1:07:05
  so if we go back to occupying the experience and so like how
• 1:07:12
  much intensity can you
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: hold being,
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_01: preserving the observer
• 1:07:19
  on the one hand,
• 1:07:21
  and on the other hand,
• 1:07:25
  embodying your facet of your ego.
• 1:07:33
  And one thing that comes to mind is,
• 1:07:36
  again,
• 1:07:37
  how mature or how strong is your observer?
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: How have you...
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: How much do you interact?
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: How well do you know your observer?
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: How mature?
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then maybe it can hold the intensity while still observing.
• 1:08:07
  I think that this observer can have a different capacity for
• 1:08:13
  holding intensity.
• 1:08:16
  Because I do totally identify with this energy and with the
• 1:08:20
  intensity of experience.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's as if the intensity starts to carry you itself.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: The intensity becomes the force that takes you into this vortex.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:36
  But I think if you have a really good observer or self or
• 1:08:41
  whoever that structure
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: is,
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: then you can have a very intense experience.
• 1:08:49
  And at the same time be observing and be more or less conscious
• 1:08:54
  and have and have choice.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's one thing that I wanted to say.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other regarding the sensitivity that you say you have,
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: but other people don't have because,
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: what
• 1:09:09
  natural reaction or response that we develop in in or how we
• 1:09:16
  respond to this
• 1:09:17
  intensity that tends to hijack us is simply become numb right
• 1:09:26
  so i think for many
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: people that is simply
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_01: the thing.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_02: That is an interesting observation.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this kind of like interoceptive awareness
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we go into too much awareness.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I become aware of the things that are too intense for me,
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_02: so I can't hold it,
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_02: I can't sustain it,
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_02: so I go numb.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, it makes sense.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is the mechanism of the...
• 1:10:12
  traumatic response and yeah the numbness and dissociation
• 1:10:16
  things like that so okay
• 1:10:17
  and i think um for many people nowadays it's the default
• 1:10:24
  condition where they're
• 1:10:25
  numb because they don't have um skills or capacity to cope with
• 1:10:31
  the stimuli that
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_01: they face on a daily basis well and not just
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like as a choice,
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: can I add,
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_00: but also as almost a prescription because,
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 1:10:44
  like the mainstream society very much makes it seem like we
• 1:10:52
  really shouldn't.
• 1:10:54
  be occupying our intensity and our emotions everything going
• 1:10:59
  towards let's manage
• 1:11:01
  this let's numb the pain let's take some some mushrooms and
• 1:11:06
  some marijuana let's
• 1:11:06
  let's let's lower the intensity on how much we feel what we
• 1:11:11
  feel let's you know
• 1:11:13
  kind of stack the field with the the one one wavelength that
• 1:11:19
  we're all interacting
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: on
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's quite complex.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Not really mushrooms, but rather Xanax.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because mushrooms actually amplifies it.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_00: It amplifies it?
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you see, I apologize to the audience.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_00: I have not yet partaken, so I do not know.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Does marijuana also intensify?
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like... It's very individual.
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_02: I guess it also depends on the type.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_02: The type of marijuana.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 1:11:52
  Oh,
• 1:11:52
  but I've seen in movies teenagers say,
• 1:11:56
  let me take a gummy so I can chill out.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but how many things have you seen in movies?
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I made my point, right?
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just an adaptive neurological response,
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_00: in the nervous system,
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_00: but it also is very much,
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_00: in the name of culture and our society.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very complicated.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:12:24
  That's why also my personal experience to when I get hijacked
• 1:12:29
  by some of those very
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_00: strong,
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_00: very amplified energies,
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: feeling sensations,
• 1:12:35
  it's almost like even twice as jarring on the entire nervous
• 1:12:40
  system receptors as
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_00: maybe would be if it was more of a like a normal thing,
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_00: OK,
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_00: get angry,
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_00: express it,
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_00: maybe not at someone,
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_00: but
• 1:12:51
  express it there's space for it there's it's welcome right
• 1:12:54
  rather than don't be
• 1:12:56
  angry you know that's a bad thing so anyway thanks for thanks
• 1:13:02
  for listening
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_02: I must say that I really love our conversation.
• 1:13:18
  So many beautiful things have emerged that I still need somehow
• 1:13:26
  to give it space so
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_02: it would take some kind of form and meaning.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_02: But meanwhile, we need to wrap up.
• 1:13:38
  already already yeah five minutes what so and you're like i had
• 1:13:47
  so many interesting
• 1:13:48
  questions prepared which we'll not be able to discuss but you
• 1:13:54
  know to close up um
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_02: let's finish with
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_02: What can we do based on all what we have explored?
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_02: What can we do to prevent our ego or hijacking the persona, I guess?
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Block our flow.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_02: And whatever flow it is,
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_02: you're like,
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_02: just personal flow state,
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_02: flow with life,
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_02: the group flow.
• 1:14:32
  so i'm gonna say um you know bring back what we just talked
• 1:14:38
  about about the
• 1:14:39
  intensity i mean you have to experience intensity the ego has
• 1:14:47
  to experience
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_01: intensity and feel alive because kind of that's
• 1:14:57
  to me it's one of its jobs it's about you surviving in this
• 1:15:04
  civilized society and
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_01: also holding a certain place and at the same time
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:15:16
  how much it's about the self or the observer and how robust is
• 1:15:23
  that observer and
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_01: how much intensity can you afford to express in the moment.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like training them both, I guess.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like the way we started,
• 1:15:48
  people are not allowed to almost follow the impulses the ego
• 1:15:58
  impulses and those
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_01: impulses and sometimes it's it's for a good reason
• 1:16:09
  because those impulses don't really belong in the social
• 1:16:14
  structure but like the
• 1:16:16
  stronger they get those impulses of you like not being heard or
• 1:16:23
  not allowing
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_01: allowed to be yourself or
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:16:28
  it's just accumulates into this big ball and then you're going
• 1:16:32
  to be hijacked and
• 1:16:35
  the observer is going to be just swept away or torn apart
• 1:16:41
  because it doesn't know
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_01: how to hold intensity.
• 1:16:45
  And so it's not a simple answer,
• 1:16:47
  but I just brought together everything that we discussed.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 1:16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_00: What was the question?
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because I want to respond.
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_02: What can we do to prevent our ego to block our flow?
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's exactly what Yulia just took us on a journey with this.
• 1:17:20
  it's the opposite of what they told us to do the entire time I
• 1:17:24
  was growing up anyways.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're like you,
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_00: you just said,
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_00: if we are,
• 1:17:30
  if we allow ourselves a space to actually embody and occupy our
• 1:17:38
  impulses with an
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_00: observer in place would be cool.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Then the,
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_00: In my own journey,
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think the more welcoming I get,
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to use the language I usually use.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_00: So the more welcoming I am,
• 1:17:53
  the more I even started playing with occupying those personas
• 1:17:59
  rather than shutting
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_00: them down.
• 1:18:02
  So it does decrease the intensity of it in terms of it becomes
• 1:18:07
  less scary.
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_00: It also becomes less bottled up.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then it becomes something that is easier to visit.
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's maybe sometimes still as intense, but there's no fear around it.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So then it's like, well, it's okay.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_00: We know how to do this now.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_00: We're getting better at doing this kind of intensity.
• 1:18:30
  But eventually also the intensity either becomes less or maybe
• 1:18:35
  it just becomes more
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_00: manageable or maybe it becomes something I could ride better.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's a whole slew of things that happen.
• 1:18:46
  And the more the observer is adept at sticking around in one
• 1:18:53
  way or another,
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_00: and like the self is kind of at the interface and allowing for...
• 1:19:01
  the experience of whatever the persona is or whatever the
• 1:19:05
  energy that's coming up.
• 1:19:06
  I actually even started identifying that intensity more as like
• 1:19:11
  pressure and
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_00: tension rather than words like anger and frustration,
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_00: which has helped me,
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_00: connect more to like the life force of the thing rather than some label.
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
• 1:19:26
  In the practice of all of this is how you get better at the
• 1:19:32
  flow of the thing.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_00: In the practice of building up the observer,
• 1:19:37
  being more connected and being able to live for himself at the
• 1:19:40
  interface control.
• 1:19:42
  And in the allowing and welcoming of the persona and the
• 1:19:46
  impulses,
• 1:19:48
  of course,
• 1:19:50
  in a way that is not destructive or of malice towards others,
• 1:19:54
  hopefully,
• 1:19:54
  right?
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So other ways of doing it, like figuring out other ways of doing it.
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_00: You would have figured out how to do it in improv, right?
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Or she sits with a tree.
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_00: I go to the ocean and try to connect with birds.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do here?
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_00: You probably do all your creative writing, right?
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_02: I do a lot of stuff.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_00: You do a lot of stuff, yeah.
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Meditating, all that stuff, right?
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I like how this conversation went today.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_00: It really went differently than before.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I'm dropping your head.
• 1:20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, Yara.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_00: What about you?
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Can I just make one small comment before,
• 1:20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Pauline,
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_01: to what you said and to what I said but couldn't coherently finish?
• 1:20:41
  I just also wanted to say that the way that our egos are and
• 1:20:47
  shows up,
• 1:20:49
  it's not...
• 1:20:51
  an individual responsibility and that for me was also a big
• 1:20:55
  thing because it's an
• 1:20:56
  interplay of so many factors and there are forces at play like
• 1:21:02
  the ones for example
• 1:21:03
  in the society or civilization that are much bigger than
• 1:21:10
  individuals are and we're
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_01: interconnected anyway so one of the things that i find really
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_01: valuable, is recognize that and give yourself a break.
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for adding that.
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_00: I sometimes forget that,
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_00: because maybe it hasn't fully landed for me,
• 1:21:33
  SPEAKER_00: this whole interplay and the collective responsibility.
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it fits into welcoming
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like the welcoming invitation.
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually want to riff a little bit on top of that just quickly.
• 1:21:59
  SPEAKER_00: So Alison calls, says that there are no such things as relationships.
• 1:22:03
  SPEAKER_00: She says there are just instances of being related.
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_00: So literally we're just, this is how we relate now.
• 1:22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it has nothing to do with how we're gonna relate next time.
• 1:22:12
  And so each time is just an instance of relating in this thing
• 1:22:16
  that we call relationship.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_00: But if we think about the collective responsibility, right?
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And like the social,
• 1:22:28
  SPEAKER_00: the interconnected aspect of this,
• 1:22:31
  then the more welcoming we are with one another in those
• 1:22:36
  instances of being
• 1:22:37
  SPEAKER_00: related,
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_00: in terms of just freaking holding space for one another,
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_00: as in this instance,
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_00: maybe I'm relating to you a little bit on the edge of the,
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_00: the spectrum.
• 1:22:50
  And maybe not holding it in so much judgment and criticism
• 1:22:54
  because it creates that edge.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_00: It creates this, like, tension that pulls someone into...
• 1:23:02
  being more concrete with it and more like making a shape out of
• 1:23:07
  something that
• 1:23:07
  actually is just meant to be expressed dispersed and you know
• 1:23:13
  sent back to the
• 1:23:14
  SPEAKER_00: ethers or whatever uh and that is something that
• 1:23:20
  is a collective responsibility and yet we don't really talk
• 1:23:22
  about that not the
• 1:23:24
  collective responsibility of judging each other and blaming
• 1:23:27
  each other and
• 1:23:27
  criticizing and pointing but i mean the collective
• 1:23:29
  responsibility of like can we
• 1:23:31
  just make fucking room for each other and hold space and
• 1:23:35
  remember these are all
• 1:23:36
  just instances of being related on the spectrum of flow of self
• 1:23:40
  and controls and
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_00: different personas having their turn
• 1:23:47
  SPEAKER_00: My rant is over.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Bravo.
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_02: Basically,
• 1:23:52
  it's all about training the awareness and training the
• 1:23:57
  welcoming every part of the
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_02: experience,
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_02: whatever the experience is emerging at the moment.
• 1:24:04
  SPEAKER_02: And on this brilliant note,
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_02: I want to thank you both for this very deep and enriching conversation.
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I invite our listeners to
• 1:24:16
  SPEAKER_02: to welcome the egoistic impulses with fairness.
• 1:24:25
  SPEAKER_02: And welcome.
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_02: And we see you next time at our next episode.
• 1:24:33
  SPEAKER_02: Let's keep flowing together.
• 1:24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 1:24:37
  SPEAKER_01: How was it for you?
• 1:24:39
  We believe that the more people experience group flow together,
• 1:24:43
  the better off we all are.
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_01: More connected, more creative, more alive.
• 1:24:49
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• 1:24:52
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• 1:25:03
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• 1:25:09
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• 1:25:15
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