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Office Politics · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

0:21
Speaker 1: Hey, tolerators, this is to all the men I've tolerated before.
0:25
Speaker 1: With Amtley Katona, your weekly look at everyday misogyny. Today,
0:29
Speaker 1: our guest is Amy, who I met through Chelsea Davontas's
0:32
Speaker 1: fantastic Behind the Bangs program. Amy is an Emmy Award
0:38
Speaker 1: winning TV editor, and she's here to talk to us
0:41
Speaker 1: about the everyday misogyny she's experienced during her life in career.
0:47
Speaker 2: Welcome to the show, Amy.
0:49
Speaker 3: Thanks, thanks for having me.
0:51
Speaker 1: No problem, Thank you for wanting to sit down and
0:55
Speaker 1: give me up to an hour of your time.
1:00
Speaker 2: Problem.
1:00
Speaker 3: I'm here for it. In my industry, I feel like
1:04
Speaker 3: everybody is kind of discriminated again, so and they're all
1:08
Speaker 3: all the ways. So I'm here to give you my
1:10
Speaker 3: little delver of.
1:12
Speaker 2: It, your chapter of it.
1:14
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, Well.
1:16
Speaker 1: Why don't you give the listeners a little bit more
1:19
Speaker 1: background information on you and your career?
1:24
Speaker 2: Totally.
1:24
Speaker 3: I moved to New York City. I ran here went
1:30
Speaker 3: right after I graduated college. I grew up in Mississippi
1:34
Speaker 3: and it was great public school education, state school. But
1:38
Speaker 3: I just needed out of there. So I came to
1:40
Speaker 3: New York with two hundred bucks credit card. You know,
1:44
Speaker 3: not much and started to forge my way in the
1:49
Speaker 3: film industry because I felt like film and TV was
1:52
Speaker 3: a way to a fun medium to dabble in with
1:55
Speaker 3: the video, audio writing and editing. So even though I
2:00
Speaker 3: didn't say that in school, I really had to learn
2:04
Speaker 3: by doing so. I did a lot of years of
2:07
Speaker 3: grant work, reception work, and then writing at night, and
2:14
Speaker 3: so eventually I made my way into editing and editing
2:21
Speaker 3: reality television in particular, and so I've been doing that
2:26
Speaker 3: for about ten to fifteen years more than that. But
2:30
Speaker 3: the point is is that every step of the way
2:34
Speaker 3: there were challenges. As a girl from a small town
2:38
Speaker 3: in a big city, my face and a lot of
2:43
Speaker 3: adversity could be because of skill level knowledge, how green
2:49
Speaker 3: I was in the beginning, and how hard it is
2:52
Speaker 3: to make it in the industry, witnessing certain things along
2:55
Speaker 3: the way, not really being able to parse it with
2:57
Speaker 3: the cultural information I had, and I just fought my
3:02
Speaker 3: way to build my career. And you know, editing in
3:08
Speaker 3: particular is a very isolating part of the craft, where
3:14
Speaker 3: you're in a room by yourself, and it's actually really
3:17
Speaker 3: great for people who are a little more introverted or artistic,
3:23
Speaker 3: but it makes you maybe a little bit more vulnerable
3:26
Speaker 3: as well, because you don't necessarily always have other folks.
3:30
Speaker 2: To talk to.
3:31
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's been a great time. I love the work,
3:39
Speaker 3: but you know it comes with its hardships for sure.
3:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you for reality TV. I'll just thank
3:48
Speaker 1: you for all of it. Like you conceptualized it. Reality
3:53
Speaker 1: TV is how I got an honorary psych degree that
3:58
Speaker 1: I gave myself and we oh to all the men
4:04
Speaker 1: I've tolerated before could make a killing off of reality
4:07
Speaker 1: TV alone and the misogyny that presents itself. Are you
4:12
Speaker 1: able to enjoy watching reality TV as an editor of
4:16
Speaker 1: reality TV?
4:17
Speaker 3: You know, before I got into the business that particular genre, rather,
4:23
Speaker 3: I watched one show and it was House Hunters International
4:28
Speaker 3: and maybe DIY stuff. I was never into the shows themselves,
4:33
Speaker 3: And now I might watch something I've cut to see
4:36
Speaker 3: how it onlined, how they colored and sound mixed it,
4:40
Speaker 3: just to see how it looks, And that's mostly what
4:43
Speaker 3: I watch.
4:44
Speaker 2: Listen, that's probably for the best.
4:46
Speaker 3: Never meet your heroes, maybe yeah.
4:49
Speaker 1: Hey, or never be me at ten o'clock every night
4:53
Speaker 1: with barely gripping onto my last shread of sanity and
4:58
Speaker 1: brain power as I'm screaming at the television for another
5:04
Speaker 1: endless episode of Love Island where I don't like anybody
5:08
Speaker 1: this season, and yet every night they got me.
5:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's funny. I know of the folks who
5:15
Speaker 3: work on that, good people.
5:17
Speaker 1: Well, they're sure they're putting me through a roller coaster.
5:21
Speaker 1: It's mostly the cast.
5:23
Speaker 3: They did their job. They do say it's the cast,
5:26
Speaker 3: but it's how the editors edited the cast.
5:29
Speaker 2: Well, and I.
5:30
Speaker 1: Guess, I guess we have to thank you, and or
5:34
Speaker 1: if we end up on reality TV shows, make sure
5:37
Speaker 1: that we ask you how to sweet talk editors so
5:40
Speaker 1: we get the good edit, because everyone's always holding out
5:43
Speaker 1: for the good edit.
5:45
Speaker 3: Oh man, I'll tell you right now, it is not
5:49
Speaker 3: the editor who is responsible for a bad edit. It's
5:53
Speaker 3: the budget, it's the schedule, it's how they fanangled it,
5:58
Speaker 3: among many other factors.
5:59
Speaker 1: Just saying, I think we're in this like whole new
6:02
Speaker 1: realm of reality TV. We're like our generation, like my generation,
6:08
Speaker 1: the millennials were like, we're actually just gonna talk openly
6:12
Speaker 1: about like yeah, I talked to a producer for twenty
6:15
Speaker 1: five minutes and they showed you three minutes of it.
6:18
Speaker 1: So you decide whether or not you got the full story.
6:22
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I mean, look, my joke is is, do
6:28
Speaker 3: you really want to watch a thirty minute raw footage
6:32
Speaker 3: of a house tour right right? Like nobody does? You
6:35
Speaker 3: want it to be like two and a half minutes.
6:37
Speaker 3: You want some befores and afters bam, moving on. So
6:42
Speaker 3: there you know when you cut out all that time,
6:44
Speaker 3: it's definitely just a hone in on what you care about.
6:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I love it. It's my gailty little pleasure.
6:55
Speaker 1: And it both gives me faith in humanity if I'm
6:59
Speaker 1: watching The Great British Takeoff and rips my faith of.
7:02
Speaker 2: Humanity right out of my body. If I'm watching.
7:05
Speaker 1: Married at First Sight, Yeah, yeah, uh, I do have
7:11
Speaker 1: that one of the One of the ways when we
7:15
Speaker 1: had our pre chat we talked about how misogyny kind
7:19
Speaker 1: of plays out within a work environment is we talked
7:22
Speaker 1: about the underlying anger behind the misogynists, but how they
7:29
Speaker 1: present themselves more in a passive kind of aggressive. But
7:35
Speaker 1: you can't actually call it aggressive if you fill out
7:38
Speaker 1: a form with HR and just like a real woe
7:41
Speaker 1: is me sad?
7:43
Speaker 2: Aren't you on my side? Kind of vibe?
7:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of times where you have you're
7:54
Speaker 3: you're with your teammates, Like I know, in my heart
7:58
Speaker 3: and mind, I fill genuinely with colleagues who you're bouncing
8:03
Speaker 3: ideas off of in working with and trying to problem
8:07
Speaker 3: solve with, Like you know, you're just a professional doing
8:11
Speaker 3: your job, and what I don't I feel like I
8:14
Speaker 3: was naive about for decades of my life where I
8:19
Speaker 3: was just like, that's what I thought we were doing.
8:21
Speaker 3: And then conversely, there are situations where they mis understood
8:28
Speaker 3: my friendliness or camaraderie or they viewed me as perhaps
8:37
Speaker 3: somebody they could take things out on because they were
8:41
Speaker 3: frustrated and experienced upsets. I don't know, maybe I said
8:47
Speaker 3: too much or whatever, and just they just felt the
8:51
Speaker 3: need to exact. I don't know if the word revenge
8:55
Speaker 3: is correct, but just like let it out, Anya, Yeah.
9:00
Speaker 1: It's like an unleashine of an ego attack when you
9:06
Speaker 1: weren't actually sure that that person had an ego because
9:09
Speaker 1: of how like down on themselves.
9:12
Speaker 4: They're always presenting themselves or frazzled or.
9:14
Speaker 1: Like oh you know, like I'd never do this, but
9:18
Speaker 1: and they It reminds me of like how we've kind
9:22
Speaker 1: of turned the story on like, hey, I don't actually
9:25
Speaker 1: want to work on a job that is like, oh,
9:29
Speaker 1: we're just all family here, because family are the people
9:32
Speaker 1: who ruin Christmas for me every year by like making
9:35
Speaker 1: me give weird uncles hugs. So I don't want to
9:38
Speaker 1: deal with that at work.
9:40
Speaker 3: I know it's true. And the weird uncle thing, the
9:45
Speaker 3: dancing around folks do for the uncle versus protecting the
9:50
Speaker 3: female child.
9:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and I think that's what I spent most
9:57
Speaker 1: of my twenties doing in jobs, is dancing around invisible
10:03
Speaker 1: male feelings and or egos just to be like and
10:08
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, everything's gonna get done
10:10
Speaker 1: that needs to get done.
10:12
Speaker 2: Like for me it was still it was just very
10:14
Speaker 2: much a part of the productivity of it.
10:17
Speaker 1: Like, well, in order to get this done, I'm going
10:20
Speaker 1: to have to laugh at five of his jokes, tell him, Oh,
10:24
Speaker 1: I am so sorry that someone said that to you
10:27
Speaker 1: in a meeting, And of course, of course you were
10:31
Speaker 1: brilliant and right and literally just like grip my teeth
10:35
Speaker 1: through it until I can sit down and get my
10:38
Speaker 1: job done and do what I actually need to do
10:41
Speaker 1: for the day. And that's how I'm looking back on it.
10:43
Speaker 1: But when I was younger, I was a full participant
10:47
Speaker 1: in that culture where I'm like, this is part of it.
10:50
Speaker 1: You just babysit, You babysit feelings, you babysit egos, like
10:56
Speaker 1: it's part of being a team. It's being a good team.
11:00
Speaker 1: It's part of like being a good work friend, a
11:03
Speaker 1: work wife, like the like, And what it is is
11:08
Speaker 1: it's icky and exhausting.
11:10
Speaker 3: Well, it's part of the job. They are who you
11:14
Speaker 3: know who need to be coddled. Are the boss who's
11:18
Speaker 3: guidance and diplomacy you respect and need to maintain so
11:25
Speaker 3: they can do their job of keeping you employed. So
11:28
Speaker 3: you have stakes in this situation in addition to the
11:32
Speaker 3: workflow convenience of just gaslighting them, wrangling them, you know,
11:37
Speaker 3: the talent wrangling the talent, having them behave in the
11:39
Speaker 3: way you need to. And it's just a version of that.
11:43
Speaker 3: And I'm not sitting here condoning what happened to you
11:46
Speaker 3: or what happens to me at work, but it's definitely
11:49
Speaker 3: managing up and women have a particular way they must
11:54
Speaker 3: do it.
11:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, where it's I remember sitting down at a employee review,
12:04
Speaker 1: like a mid year review or something, and learning a
12:08
Speaker 1: bunch of things about myself that I did not know,
12:10
Speaker 1: that I was caddy, that I was gossiping, that I
12:14
Speaker 1: was making jokes at his expense. I think what ended
12:20
Speaker 1: up happening was I was liked and people laughed near me,
12:26
Speaker 1: So his insecurities wrote a story in his head that
12:31
Speaker 1: you know, I was getting a lot of cloud off
12:34
Speaker 1: of his work and also making a fool out of him, and.
12:39
Speaker 3: Like almost at his expense, Like you couldn't be successful
12:43
Speaker 3: in your own merits. It had to be for some reason,
12:46
Speaker 3: some narrative he.
12:47
Speaker 1: Drew right, or just by being in a room, or
12:51
Speaker 1: just by being myself, or just by being good at
12:54
Speaker 1: my damn job. Even though I was the newbie and
12:58
Speaker 1: the we're an experienced person on our team. It was like, well,
13:03
Speaker 1: you're what you're doing is you're taking attention. Like I think,
13:08
Speaker 1: like when I watch the Secret Lives of Mormon wives
13:11
Speaker 1: and I wat and like they talk about how they like, oh, well,
13:15
Speaker 1: you know, in our culture, like we had to be submissive,
13:18
Speaker 1: we had to be silent or whatever.
13:21
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, we have to do that at
13:23
Speaker 2: work too. Yeah.
13:26
Speaker 3: No, I can say I can attest to the fact
13:28
Speaker 3: that you know, in business and school you're always told
13:34
Speaker 3: that failure's part of your success. And also if you
13:39
Speaker 3: don't ask for it, then you won't get it. And
13:42
Speaker 3: the worst thing that could happen is we'll say no,
13:45
Speaker 3: and it's not a big deal. So always ask okay.
13:48
Speaker 3: So I'm kind of governed by that, like if I feel,
13:51
Speaker 3: and I also self regulate, like I don't just spaz
13:54
Speaker 3: out and try to be blossom day one, but I
13:57
Speaker 3: do want to eventually move up the ladder, so I will,
14:02
Speaker 3: as a rule just make sure like, Okay, if I
14:05
Speaker 3: have that idea, I'm going to have it out loud,
14:07
Speaker 3: because otherwise nothing will come of it. And so I
14:11
Speaker 3: give it a shot. And I can't even count the
14:13
Speaker 3: times that I feel like that was absolutely the nail
14:16
Speaker 3: of my coffin, to have expressed myself in an ambitious way.
14:20
Speaker 3: I mean I can, I can't count them. It's like
14:23
Speaker 3: anytime I confess that I'm interested in something other than
14:26
Speaker 3: keeping my nose down and doing the very job that
14:30
Speaker 3: everybody's there to do, it's not all that welcome.
14:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was hired in at a job, the samer
14:38
Speaker 1: job where I have that toxic peer review and I
14:43
Speaker 1: was told, you know where, we're a nonprofit. Nonprofits have
14:48
Speaker 1: to work together, Like, sure, you're in this department, but
14:52
Speaker 1: if people are setting up for an event in this
14:55
Speaker 1: department and they need bodies, they need bodies, and you
14:58
Speaker 1: should be more than half to help. Well, then, because
15:03
Speaker 1: I am full of whimsy and wonder and I loved
15:07
Speaker 1: the subject that I was working in. I was working
15:09
Speaker 1: in theater. I got curious and I got good at
15:13
Speaker 1: other at asking questions and talking to people and taking
15:17
Speaker 1: them up on like sure, I'll talk to press, or
15:19
Speaker 1: I'll watch the press release, or I'll walk the Broadway
15:23
Speaker 1: people from place to place or whatever, because I like
15:26
Speaker 1: people and I like theater and I like getting to
15:29
Speaker 1: know things about theater.
15:31
Speaker 2: And boy, I think I think.
15:35
Speaker 1: It was sure, you have to help other people out,
15:38
Speaker 1: and you have to help the other departments out, but
15:40
Speaker 1: we actually hate them and we don't actually want them
15:43
Speaker 1: to do well. And the fact that you're actually enjoying
15:46
Speaker 1: your time with them means that you're not giving all
15:50
Speaker 1: the energy that you could be doing to my goals.
15:53
Speaker 2: And it's like, oh, well, that's what you should.
15:56
Speaker 1: Have said in my higher process is that we secretly
16:01
Speaker 1: hate everybody, but we got to help them, I know.
16:05
Speaker 3: I mean, if nothing else, it's a parameter you must
16:08
Speaker 3: compute in your problem solving challenge. You know, if you're
16:13
Speaker 3: boxing boxing them out, let me know and I'll build
16:16
Speaker 3: the wall. But there's been a handful of times. There's
16:20
Speaker 3: been a number of experiences, but one that's standing out,
16:24
Speaker 3: give me a PTSD right now in my mind is
16:26
Speaker 3: where I was hired to fix a show, and so
16:32
Speaker 3: I went in there all gun ho, ready to fix it,
16:35
Speaker 3: and it turned out I wasn't supposed to be doing that,
16:39
Speaker 3: but the production company needed me to do it. And
16:44
Speaker 3: that's obviously a problem because if you had told me
16:46
Speaker 3: that the other parties weren't necessarily in on the fixing,
16:51
Speaker 3: then I could have navigated it way more informed. I
16:56
Speaker 3: would have been able to have conversations so or made
17:00
Speaker 3: choices and presentations with that in mind. And what's lame
17:06
Speaker 3: about it is not every editor. So everybody in my
17:09
Speaker 3: position has surely been in a weird self sabotage situation,
17:13
Speaker 3: slow motion train wreck that you can't stop. But how
17:20
Speaker 3: you come out on the other ends. The poor relationship
17:24
Speaker 3: with the filmmakers or the network or whoever you're working with,
17:29
Speaker 3: it's just inevitably going to last and not help you
17:34
Speaker 3: along the way, and it just is piled on with
17:37
Speaker 3: all the other stuff. And that's the thing about women
17:41
Speaker 3: or people of color navigating the world is you always
17:46
Speaker 3: have that extra thing to think about. You always have
17:49
Speaker 3: that other layer of consideration. But then the people who
17:54
Speaker 3: get the most mad about it, the bosses or insecure people,
17:57
Speaker 3: or the supervisors, the people in charge, they don't like
18:01
Speaker 3: that feeling either, and like ninety nine percent of what
18:04
Speaker 3: they do is combat that feeling by trying to contain you,
18:09
Speaker 3: trying to make you stop making them feel bad. And
18:12
Speaker 3: it's just weird to me. It's like, why not talk
18:15
Speaker 3: it out and figure it out together. There's another situation
18:20
Speaker 3: where I was an assistant. It was many years ago
18:23
Speaker 3: where the male peer did not like what I said
18:29
Speaker 3: or how I acted. Who knows why. I can sit
18:32
Speaker 3: here and pontificate that he was insecure or frustrated, whatever,
18:37
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. He took me to have drinks after
18:42
Speaker 3: in a friendly, conversational way and then proceeded to try
18:46
Speaker 3: to tell me how to act to make him feel better.
18:50
Speaker 3: And I took it in and was young at the
18:54
Speaker 3: time ish, I wasn't super aware me too hadn't happened
18:58
Speaker 3: yet all that jazz, so I just didn't have it
19:00
Speaker 3: click at the time. But in retrospect, I was like, Oh,
19:04
Speaker 3: he was just building a buffer around his own discomfort
19:09
Speaker 3: by commanding me to behave in the way that he
19:13
Speaker 3: needed me to to feel better. And you could say
19:17
Speaker 3: he does that to everybody, but I have a feeling
19:19
Speaker 3: and he was probably upset being the female colleague, and
19:24
Speaker 3: then that he could do that to me being a
19:26
Speaker 3: female colleague. I'm sure the man in his mind didn't
19:29
Speaker 3: sit there and go, I really hate women. I'm gonna
19:32
Speaker 3: pick on one today. You know, they don't do that.
19:35
Speaker 3: It's probably just as baked in to them as it
19:40
Speaker 3: is to us to.
19:41
Speaker 1: Accept it well, and to them they've decided that that's
19:44
Speaker 1: what leadership is. Leadership is trying to mold you into
19:48
Speaker 1: the box that makes them feel the most comfortable, makes
19:51
Speaker 1: them feel like the work's getting done in the way
19:53
Speaker 1: that they want to get it done. Whereas I think
19:55
Speaker 1: you and I think, well, leadership is bringing people to
19:59
Speaker 1: the table, talk things.
20:00
Speaker 3: Out, solving the actual problem. Yeah, like if you'd want
20:06
Speaker 3: to talk efficiency, like just get to it, but you know,
20:11
Speaker 3: we're talking about the higher levels of office like presidents
20:16
Speaker 3: and world leaders and dictators also or countries who are
20:21
Speaker 3: trying to negotiate something. You have to be aware of
20:25
Speaker 3: them and what they feel like and work with them.
20:27
Speaker 3: There is an element that's legit about that, Like I
20:30
Speaker 3: would be considerate to China and their customs if I
20:36
Speaker 3: were to do business with them, but or if I
20:40
Speaker 3: go to anywhere else in the world, I would understand
20:43
Speaker 3: that they need me to present a certain way, but
20:45
Speaker 3: then there are limits to that.
20:47
Speaker 2: Yeah.
20:49
Speaker 1: Well, and I think also it's and again because you're
20:55
Speaker 1: the person who's like low on the payment scale or
20:59
Speaker 1: in the ranking of the office or whatever. It's like, well,
21:04
Speaker 1: of course no one cares about my feelings or whether
21:07
Speaker 1: or not anything is weighing on me today. But I
21:12
Speaker 1: remember just like how much of a threat it was
21:15
Speaker 1: anytime I advocated myself and went listen, I'm burnt out.
21:20
Speaker 1: But I know exactly where my burnt out point is.
21:23
Speaker 1: And it's because this scenario has a really broken system
21:30
Speaker 1: that we use day in and day out, and we
21:33
Speaker 1: know that it's slow, and we know that it's clunky,
21:35
Speaker 1: and we know that it's not a great communication style,
21:39
Speaker 1: and we know that it's really not serving our students
21:41
Speaker 1: because I was a teacher, or our clients or our
21:44
Speaker 1: customers or whatever. But you just keep telling me, well,
21:47
Speaker 1: that's how we do it, though, But this is where
21:51
Speaker 1: your employee's burning out. This is where all my frustration lies.
21:54
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden it's well, I didn't
21:56
Speaker 1: know that you were so unhappy. No, I'm telling you
21:59
Speaker 1: that there's a so and it's a solution that will
22:02
Speaker 1: help from the bottom up.
22:06
Speaker 3: They don't want the answers, you know. I was just
22:08
Speaker 3: talking about this with a colleague the other day, where
22:13
Speaker 3: the parameter is everything stays the same for them, and
22:18
Speaker 3: then everybody else do cartwheels. And like I said, when
22:23
Speaker 3: you're dealing with like other folks on the outside, yes
22:28
Speaker 3: you do that, but then the limits are that in
22:33
Speaker 3: your home, in your workplace, where you deal with each
22:38
Speaker 3: other day in a day, night, day out, you're like,
22:42
Speaker 3: you have to be malleable, and the best bosses are
22:46
Speaker 3: like that. I'm not saying have a full on open
22:49
Speaker 3: door policy, because obviously people exploit it or think they're
22:52
Speaker 3: your friend and might get a little warm and fuzzy
22:56
Speaker 3: that way. But you know, have boundaries, but it's just
23:00
Speaker 3: straight up trying to change somebody else's behavior to make
23:02
Speaker 3: you feel better. And they don't view it that way.
23:05
Speaker 3: They see it as, this is the thing that's making
23:07
Speaker 3: me uncomfortable. This person is doing the thing. How do
23:11
Speaker 3: I make it stop? Versus you know, let's break this
23:14
Speaker 3: down and see what's going on. And you're one hundred
23:16
Speaker 3: percent right about how you're Because you're lower on the
23:22
Speaker 3: totem pole, so to speak, you might not be regarded
23:26
Speaker 3: as someone with feelings that matter. But the thing is
23:30
Speaker 3: is like, even if you take the humanity out out
23:33
Speaker 3: of it and don't care about that person, you should
23:35
Speaker 3: still care about the person in that role not doing
23:38
Speaker 3: the job well because of all the things.
23:41
Speaker 1: Right, And I think part of it, I always like
23:45
Speaker 1: squint at it and I'm like, are you fighting me
23:49
Speaker 1: on this because we don't have the budget even though
23:52
Speaker 1: I found the budget, Or you don't want to personally
23:55
Speaker 1: learn a new thing, or are you truly fighting me
23:59
Speaker 1: today because somehow me telling you you know, they've updated
24:04
Speaker 1: that software and we should really think about getting it
24:07
Speaker 1: has hurt your ego or bruised you in somehow or
24:12
Speaker 1: made you feel a certain way, and like your inability
24:16
Speaker 1: to process your own feelings.
24:18
Speaker 2: It has now become my.
24:20
Speaker 3: Weak absolutely, and it just feels so boring.
24:26
Speaker 2: I love that it is.
24:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have like things to do, I'm busy. I'm busy,
24:33
Speaker 3: and you're making these stuff and care about your feelings.
24:37
Speaker 3: But then conversely they consider it stopping and here about
24:40
Speaker 3: your feelings when you're having a meltdown about something and
24:42
Speaker 3: it's like, well, I'm the person generating the thing, I'm
24:46
Speaker 3: the one making the deadline, and the crafts person. But
24:51
Speaker 3: I think it's kind of a cultural thing for everybody
24:53
Speaker 3: where we only value the entrepreneurs self starter type, archetype,
25:00
Speaker 3: you know, the caregivers, the crafts people. I mean, that's
25:03
Speaker 3: what we're going on about now, right The working people
25:07
Speaker 3: are the ones who do the thing, yet they're the
25:11
Speaker 3: ones being most exploited, right.
25:13
Speaker 1: Well, And I was about to say that, like because
25:16
Speaker 1: I'm the person like I can't handle being a CEO
25:20
Speaker 1: because I'm actually now wired to be busy twenty four
25:24
Speaker 1: hours a day and you're just sitting here finding reasons
25:28
Speaker 1: to be upset at people.
25:29
Speaker 4: I don't like to feel alive if I don't know.
25:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, my husband calls it. People who are looking to
25:37
Speaker 3: be a victim will find it.
25:40
Speaker 2: We'll find it well.
25:42
Speaker 3: And if they're if they need escapegoat, they'll get one.
25:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.
25:46
Speaker 3: And if it happens to be misogynists problem solving, like Okay,
25:53
Speaker 3: who can I take down today? That make me feel better?
25:55
Speaker 3: Then that's the case. And culture normalizes it in our
26:01
Speaker 3: religions and the texts, it's in many laws, it's you know,
26:08
Speaker 3: in so many levels, in so many ways. How we
26:11
Speaker 3: do I mean, you mentioned the Mormons and the thing
26:13
Speaker 3: that always stuck I've worked on a Mormon show and
26:17
Speaker 3: the thing that stuck out the most was the phrase
26:21
Speaker 3: keep sweet.
26:23
Speaker 2: Oh and.
26:28
Speaker 3: I don't even have words. It's like, okay, I can
26:31
Speaker 3: be nice, but that's not what they mean.
26:33
Speaker 2: That's not what they mean.
26:34
Speaker 4: Yeah.
26:35
Speaker 1: But also like, how often have we as women in
26:38
Speaker 1: a workplace been told, well, did you deliver it nicely
26:41
Speaker 1: before you went in and said that that didn't work?
26:44
Speaker 1: Did you at least polish it up? Did you say, hey,
26:47
Speaker 1: there's real potential here. I really like the navy blue
26:51
Speaker 1: that you picked. There are dozens of typos, just dozens,
26:56
Speaker 1: and that I circled them, But you really did a
26:59
Speaker 1: great job with that banner. I'm still proud of you
27:02
Speaker 1: and understand why you make tens of thousands of dollars
27:05
Speaker 1: more than me.
27:06
Speaker 3: So congratulations, somebody said a director. She said to me,
27:13
Speaker 3: do you want what you do? What do you want
27:15
Speaker 3: for b roll? Which is the footage that covers the story?
27:22
Speaker 3: And you know, I just thought of stuff. I was like, oh,
27:25
Speaker 3: here's a list. You know, I was very I am
27:29
Speaker 3: accused of being very literal. If you ask me a question,
27:32
Speaker 3: I will answer it, which is to my detriment because
27:36
Speaker 3: how it applies to what you just said is it's
27:38
Speaker 3: like I didn't say, oh my god, the stuff you
27:42
Speaker 3: shot so far has been amazing. I love it. It's
27:46
Speaker 3: so good what you're brilliant? Can you also get me
27:50
Speaker 3: this stuff? You know? And I wasn't being critical, but
27:56
Speaker 3: the person on the other end took it that way,
27:58
Speaker 3: and it's like whatever, And I always wonder, you know,
28:02
Speaker 3: it's anecdotal, but what if a male editor had asked
28:07
Speaker 3: for a b roll list, you know, and with the
28:10
Speaker 3: director have handed it better and sorry, handled it better
28:14
Speaker 3: or differently. But because it was the dynamic that it was,
28:19
Speaker 3: I definitely feel like that contributed to my downfall.
28:22
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's it really is just hard to feel.
28:30
Speaker 1: First off, I have the same problem where if you
28:32
Speaker 1: ask me a direct question, I just give a direct answer,
28:36
Speaker 1: right because I don't we're not dating. It's not tender.
28:40
Speaker 1: I don't have to gaslate you. You don't have to
28:42
Speaker 1: gaslight me. No one's getting laid at the end of this.
28:45
Speaker 3: Like, and it's faster.
28:47
Speaker 1: And it's faster, and you're usually I'm usually in between
28:52
Speaker 1: meetings or calls or.
28:55
Speaker 2: Breathing.
28:56
Speaker 1: I don't like, we're busy, and so you ask me
28:59
Speaker 1: some and I give an answer. There were so many
29:02
Speaker 1: instances where someone would walk into my office and they'd go, hey, Nadley,
29:08
Speaker 1: why isn't the what do you think about having two
29:12
Speaker 1: science shows on the layout this year for the season?
29:16
Speaker 1: And I go, you know, it's almost like you're taking
29:19
Speaker 1: your science audience and now they have to make a choice,
29:22
Speaker 1: so they're naturally splitting into two. And there was I mean,
29:26
Speaker 1: the shows were underperforming. We had one that we always
29:29
Speaker 1: had and then we had one that was new, and
29:31
Speaker 1: we split the audience. That's what happens when funds are
29:34
Speaker 1: tight and time is tight or whatever. To me, that
29:38
Speaker 1: was just like a logical answer. I addressed the problem.
29:42
Speaker 1: You're looking at numbers and going, now, naby, why isn't that?
29:48
Speaker 1: Why are things underperforming? And I'm going you took one
29:52
Speaker 1: audience and you split it into two. You gave them
29:55
Speaker 1: a choice, and now they're divving there.
29:57
Speaker 2: You know, not everyone.
29:59
Speaker 3: They don't like it. They didn't like it. You broke
30:03
Speaker 3: the system of what they were already thinking.
30:05
Speaker 1: So well because well and because that person thought that
30:09
Speaker 1: they were brilliant for booking both because now people have options.
30:14
Speaker 2: But they didn't think about well.
30:16
Speaker 1: Options means that not everyone ends up in column A
30:19
Speaker 1: and column B. Options means that you split uh and
30:24
Speaker 1: we and it would just be beating your head against
30:27
Speaker 1: the wall.
30:27
Speaker 2: And it would happen with.
30:30
Speaker 1: Other like picking what brochures are going to look like
30:34
Speaker 1: or something where it's like we can talk about this
30:37
Speaker 1: for two hours, but at the end of the day,
30:40
Speaker 1: we just need one thing. We just and we just
30:44
Speaker 1: needed to be done. Yeah, because you keep harassing me
30:50
Speaker 1: that it's not done, and I bring it to you
30:53
Speaker 1: every day and you're just like, I don't know about
30:55
Speaker 1: the crimson and it's like okay, Well, while you call
30:59
Speaker 1: your therapist about the Crimson. Can I at least give
31:03
Speaker 1: marketing some sort of update.
31:06
Speaker 3: Right, But no, y'all have to have a twelve point
31:11
Speaker 3: discussion on Crimson.
31:13
Speaker 2: Well. And I also think that.
31:16
Speaker 1: We call it office politics, but what it is is
31:20
Speaker 1: truly just how as society we view women. So it's like,
31:25
Speaker 1: if I just boldly say something, I'm like, well, I
31:27
Speaker 1: don't like Crimson. Now I'm a nag and a threat
31:33
Speaker 1: and I'm being mean and I'm being catty for no reason,
31:36
Speaker 1: and I'm your wife that you hate at home because
31:40
Speaker 1: that's how you have been conditioned to view women who
31:43
Speaker 1: have thoughts and words. And if I projection, it's projection.
31:50
Speaker 1: And I also think that like so often I because
31:55
Speaker 1: women aren't trusted in our society either, because we're all
32:00
Speaker 1: eve biting the apples and we're all poors, just bothering
32:05
Speaker 1: everybody that I you're telling me to make a decision.
32:11
Speaker 1: I keep making decisions. You hate my decision. Why would
32:14
Speaker 1: I trust myself to make a decision that you don't
32:17
Speaker 1: trust me to make? And it's just a cycle like
32:20
Speaker 1: that all the time.
32:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's brutal, because then you're it's like walking on eggshells.
32:27
Speaker 3: You're just trying to pick the thing, and look, a
32:31
Speaker 3: lot of times it could be just the individual who
32:36
Speaker 3: isn't good at making decisions or uh, isn't sure themselves.
32:41
Speaker 3: A lot of times you're dealing with folks who are
32:44
Speaker 3: scared to say A or B on a thing because
32:48
Speaker 3: they might be wrong. And then that's where it comes in,
32:51
Speaker 3: being a like making fails is then unacceptable and difficult
32:56
Speaker 3: and challenging, and they project that stress the ladder.
33:01
Speaker 1: Yeah no, And I think that's that is a lot
33:04
Speaker 1: of it too, where it's the scapegoat thing where it's like, well,
33:09
Speaker 1: if you say, if I get to go to a
33:12
Speaker 1: meeting and everyone hates our poster, I get to say, well,
33:18
Speaker 1: Natoleye really pushed for Midnight Blue. She said it was
33:21
Speaker 1: her favorite blue. So now everyone please hate Nampley if
33:26
Speaker 1: you would please. Oh yeah, because I've never made And
33:30
Speaker 1: I see that in a lot of personal relationships too,
33:32
Speaker 1: where it's like, well, I don't want I want to
33:35
Speaker 1: step on anyone's toes, and.
33:37
Speaker 4: It's just how they get to step back.
33:40
Speaker 1: And be in charge of everyone's time and moon and
33:44
Speaker 1: all of it, but also never be the person who's
33:47
Speaker 1: at fault.
33:49
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean I always wonder I want more
33:54
Speaker 3: controlled tests on the matter. I'd be curious if it's
33:58
Speaker 3: literally because they just seek out the weakest person and
34:04
Speaker 3: then by definition that society gives you the female as
34:09
Speaker 3: the weakest or the youth. Maybe is that why they
34:14
Speaker 3: choose the scapegoats. But it's definitely by the design, even
34:18
Speaker 3: if it's on a larger level impacting the individuals because
34:22
Speaker 3: sometimes I'm sorry to say, women do it too, but
34:26
Speaker 3: they do it from a different perspective, female bosses. They're
34:31
Speaker 3: doing it from. I fought my ass off to be
34:33
Speaker 3: here right now. I was subjected to all this stuff,
34:37
Speaker 3: so let me turn like, just make it hard when
34:41
Speaker 3: it's so unnecessary and again time consuming. I can't even
34:45
Speaker 3: tell you how much longer it takes to do everything
34:48
Speaker 3: so busy, coddling, all of the feelings, all of it.
34:55
Speaker 1: I am too much of a capricorn to coddle anybody.
35:00
Speaker 1: I've never been good at it. And I was an
35:03
Speaker 1: elementary school teacher. I talk kindergarten for a year, and
35:07
Speaker 1: I couldn't even coddle those kids.
35:10
Speaker 3: Like yeah, and kindergarteners don't shouldn't. Well, Okay, that comes
35:14
Speaker 3: into a whole parenting thing. It's like, do you really
35:16
Speaker 3: want to pick your kid up every time he falls?
35:19
Speaker 3: Like he's going to become a person who doesn't independently,
35:22
Speaker 3: And maybe that's how all these dudes get created.
35:24
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, honestly, Well, and it's also.
35:30
Speaker 1: I don't think that they know how to process things
35:35
Speaker 1: that we've just made a part of everyday life for women,
35:39
Speaker 1: things like shame and.
35:44
Speaker 3: Anxiety.
35:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, and hating the other person in the room who
35:47
Speaker 1: looks like you because it's the one woman in the
35:50
Speaker 1: room that is also speaking. So now no one's been
35:53
Speaker 1: like neither one of you's being or heard and yeah,
35:57
Speaker 1: and like surely because they're they also have felt shame
36:02
Speaker 1: at some point. But instead of doing what I do,
36:05
Speaker 1: which is internalizing it and turning it into an ulcer
36:08
Speaker 1: before it becomes a joke, Ah, they lash and they're like, well,
36:15
Speaker 1: my shame isn't my problem that? And then they just
36:18
Speaker 1: find the weakest person in the room to push it
36:21
Speaker 1: off too.
36:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then to get into the psychology of it,
36:26
Speaker 3: I consider myself a video anthropologist. And meanwhile, I never
36:34
Speaker 3: took a psych class, but just from my experience, whatever
36:39
Speaker 3: phantom is haunting the person who does these things. In
36:46
Speaker 3: my case, I'm thinking of a boss from like way back,
36:49
Speaker 3: like two thousand and three. I was an office manager
36:52
Speaker 3: and he was miserable about his lot in life. He
36:56
Speaker 3: wanted to be an actor. He thought he was so great,
36:59
Speaker 3: and he would roll in late, pull everybody away from
37:06
Speaker 3: the work, have a meeting, and literally make us sing
37:11
Speaker 3: songs in a circle while he played guitar to make
37:14
Speaker 3: to soothe him for whatever made him feel bad earlier
37:18
Speaker 3: that day, like an interaction with a person on the subway,
37:21
Speaker 3: or some fight he had with his wife. And when
37:24
Speaker 3: he was satiated, we would all go back to our
37:27
Speaker 3: office and our desks and do the thing. And then
37:31
Speaker 3: he would need everybody to stay late because he was
37:33
Speaker 3: late and because we weren't doing our and it was
37:35
Speaker 3: just like this endless cycle of abuse. And the female,
37:41
Speaker 3: I guess she was an executive level person, would wake
37:47
Speaker 3: up on Sunday morning with knots in or like physical knots,
37:52
Speaker 3: physical manifestations of a stress to because she had to
37:56
Speaker 3: go to work the next day. And that's how much
37:58
Speaker 3: anxiety she out with. And it's a real thing, the way,
38:02
Speaker 3: and it rewires your brain. I just read that headline
38:05
Speaker 3: today from a study that that sort of constant pressure
38:11
Speaker 3: to do whatever is it's neurologically chat like changing you.
38:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.
38:19
Speaker 1: Well, luckily for me, my invisible task list of catering
38:26
Speaker 1: to people's unspoken feelings started at home.
38:30
Speaker 2: Home.
38:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, it started in my home life as a child.
38:35
Speaker 1: So by the time I entered the workforce and these
38:39
Speaker 1: men had invisible expectations of me, I was like, and
38:43
Speaker 1: I will guess them correctly and meet them. Don't even
38:46
Speaker 1: worry about it.
38:47
Speaker 3: Yes, the esp are supposed to have Oh my god.
38:52
Speaker 3: But it's funny that in therapy you learn how you
38:56
Speaker 3: need to be reparented. So when you're like forty thirty
38:59
Speaker 3: years old on a therapy, it's like, okay, let's start
39:02
Speaker 3: the sessions by going back in your childhood and re
39:08
Speaker 3: wiring your brain. I mean, that's basically what you should
39:13
Speaker 3: do in cognitive behavioral therapy or something, because there's the
39:19
Speaker 3: physical and then there's obviously this social construct and it's
39:24
Speaker 3: all intertwined, which brings us to television.
39:30
Speaker 2: Right.
39:31
Speaker 3: Reality is reality. Television is the conveyance reinforcing that.
39:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, so when I'm boggled by honestly, it was married
39:45
Speaker 1: at first sight and a little bit of love is blind.
39:48
Speaker 1: That made me go, oh, I really have to start
39:54
Speaker 1: leaning into how I find women to be more attractive
39:58
Speaker 1: and more charming than men.
39:59
Speaker 4: Because if this is how they talk about us.
40:01
Speaker 1: When we're not in the room, that is somehow worse
40:04
Speaker 1: than what I imagined they said when we're not in
40:08
Speaker 1: the room, or think.
40:11
Speaker 3: You know, there's that phrase locker room talk where we're
40:15
Speaker 3: clearly objectified. Women could say they do it too when
40:19
Speaker 3: they talk about their hopway whatever, but it's the way
40:26
Speaker 3: that they then internalize it and then go out into
40:31
Speaker 3: the world. You said something earlier that made me think
40:33
Speaker 3: about the version of the colleague at work who sizes
40:37
Speaker 3: you up, whether you're somebody who will play ball or
40:40
Speaker 3: not in it that ball is dropped like you say,
40:44
Speaker 3: I'm married with a kid or whatever it is that
40:48
Speaker 3: takes you out of the running, then they start regarding
40:51
Speaker 3: you differently. I think in a lot of cases, whoever
40:54
Speaker 3: it is, just needs to stop thinking of you in
40:56
Speaker 3: those terms. And I get along the best with guys
41:00
Speaker 3: with sisters or smart and active wives, or have daughters
41:06
Speaker 3: that they love and respect. I get along with dudes
41:09
Speaker 3: with daughters, you know, because I come off as the
41:12
Speaker 3: rambunctious kid who they had or what can relate to
41:16
Speaker 3: or the sister, And I wish all guys were like that.
41:19
Speaker 3: You know, why do I need to be anybody you
41:23
Speaker 3: think about in those terms? And I think that affected
41:25
Speaker 3: me deeply many many years ago, where everything I do
41:29
Speaker 3: is to make sure I have merit, and every job
41:33
Speaker 3: I ever got fired from said we like your work.
41:38
Speaker 3: But you know, I never got fired for not being
41:42
Speaker 3: able to do the work and be good at my job,
41:45
Speaker 3: which might sound alarm bells, well, isn't that illegal? And
41:49
Speaker 3: it kind of is, but you know, they'd always say that.
41:53
Speaker 3: I had one executive producer tell me that they, the producers,
41:59
Speaker 3: the other people, nobody on the team liked me, quote unquote,
42:03
Speaker 3: and he said, you did really good work, thanks for
42:06
Speaker 3: doing the things, but they don't like you. And it
42:11
Speaker 3: just blew me away. Like that was the one time
42:14
Speaker 3: I can remember, out of like maybe two in my
42:16
Speaker 3: whole career that I cried because I put so much
42:20
Speaker 3: in the making sure I am collaborative and caring and
42:26
Speaker 3: considerates of everybody's feelings and thoughts and visions. Like I again,
42:30
Speaker 3: I'd like to think of as myself as the kind
42:32
Speaker 3: of artist that embraces the assignments. And if there are
42:38
Speaker 3: lots of chefs in the kitchen, I can figure out
42:41
Speaker 3: what they want for the soup. I can do that.
42:44
Speaker 3: That's what I'm really good at. And to be told
42:47
Speaker 3: that one time out of as an anomaly, I knew
42:52
Speaker 3: because it was an anomaly that he was either collected
42:57
Speaker 3: those responses for real, like he but it was only
43:00
Speaker 3: because he was the boss soliciting then, or he was
43:04
Speaker 3: just saying whatever it took to get me out of there,
43:06
Speaker 3: you know, to intimidate, to abuse me.
43:10
Speaker 1: Well, they like it's like that, Oh, don't worry about her.
43:15
Speaker 1: She's a guy's girl, like she's one of us. Like
43:18
Speaker 1: it's fine. And then the moment that you do, like
43:20
Speaker 1: you just have it and they've said something completely egregious
43:25
Speaker 1: about their assistant or the woman who we had to
43:30
Speaker 1: collaborate with some on something with or whatever, and you go, hey,
43:34
Speaker 1: calm it down, like you don't even correct them, you
43:38
Speaker 1: just go that's a little hot, like let's roll it back.
43:41
Speaker 1: Then all of a sudden they're like, it's like a betrayal.
43:44
Speaker 1: It's like, but you were, you were our friend, you
43:46
Speaker 1: were you were supposed to be one of us. We
43:49
Speaker 1: let you into the club.
43:51
Speaker 3: And having been in that situation myself, I'm trying to
43:56
Speaker 3: not do that. I will never or I didn't at
43:59
Speaker 3: the time. I wonder how I'd be these days. But
44:02
Speaker 3: at the time, it's like, Okay, I'm sitting in a
44:05
Speaker 3: room before a meeting the guys, the bosses, the fellow
44:10
Speaker 3: who hired me and his boss and a third guy.
44:14
Speaker 3: We're all in the room together and discussing the meeting
44:17
Speaker 3: they had with the executive. And they kept saying she
44:20
Speaker 3: gave good meeting. I'm like, okay, cool, whatever, whatever, and
44:25
Speaker 3: they just that was just the beginning the It's snowballed
44:28
Speaker 3: from there and I'm just the little the editor waiting
44:33
Speaker 3: to play it down for the network executive or whatever
44:37
Speaker 3: for the screening of the rough cut. And I said
44:42
Speaker 3: nothing and it took. And this is a lesson in
44:47
Speaker 3: why men have a part in this. Also, it was
44:50
Speaker 3: the third fella who was like, okay, guys, can it
44:55
Speaker 3: you know we were working and he did that, probably
44:58
Speaker 3: for my benefit, but also just general decency, like a
45:02
Speaker 3: you're demeaning the female lady who's your boss, like probably
45:09
Speaker 3: because you feel small around her. And then you're also
45:13
Speaker 3: violating my space and ears by just being gross. But
45:17
Speaker 3: I am that kid who plays ball, that girl who's like,
45:21
Speaker 3: oh god, whatever you guys need to say to each other,
45:25
Speaker 3: Like you know, it happens all the time, and I
45:30
Speaker 3: might judge them and not like them and not want
45:33
Speaker 3: to work there, but I mean, I hate to say it,
45:36
Speaker 3: but it's also kind of part of the gig, you know,
45:39
Speaker 3: at my job or anybody's well.
45:42
Speaker 1: And that's why in the tagline for the podcast, I
45:44
Speaker 1: always call it every day misogyny, and I go and
45:46
Speaker 1: I mean that, like it's subtle, it's silent, it's ingrained,
45:51
Speaker 1: it's everywhere, and it's in every interaction that we have.
45:57
Speaker 1: There's a layer of it. There's a layer to white
45:59
Speaker 1: privilege that every interaction I'm going to have in my
46:03
Speaker 1: day is going to have. And I do get to
46:06
Speaker 1: the point where I'm like, it is actually that guy's
46:08
Speaker 1: job to be like, guys, knock it off. It's not
46:11
Speaker 1: my job. I'm the victim here, Like I am the person,
46:15
Speaker 1: Like it would be like me just waiting around for
46:18
Speaker 1: a black person to ask people nicely to stop using slurs.
46:22
Speaker 2: No, I'm going to be the one that runs my
46:24
Speaker 2: mouth to be like, you have got to be getting me.
46:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, like what is coming out of your mouth today?
46:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, in that case, the onus can't always be on
46:34
Speaker 3: black folks to talk about racism or a racist moment
46:38
Speaker 3: or a thing. You have to be the one with
46:42
Speaker 3: the privilege in your hand because you're the one with
46:45
Speaker 3: the power to say a thing. And then if you
46:48
Speaker 3: happen to also be a minority, as in a female,
46:51
Speaker 3: then you're back in the boat with everybody else. But
46:55
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's when I raise my son, who
47:00
Speaker 3: was a white kid, and to grow into a man
47:03
Speaker 3: who understands his power and the universe and what he
47:07
Speaker 3: could possibly do and be in it. It's something I
47:09
Speaker 3: think about as a parent, and most people don't, you know.
47:14
Speaker 2: I figure, no, they don't.
47:18
Speaker 3: I mean because I want to my sister. I'm sorry,
47:21
Speaker 3: I just wanted to break to My sister made the
47:23
Speaker 3: best compliment. She was like, well, he's never going to
47:26
Speaker 3: date ripe anybody, And.
47:27
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, we've done.
47:30
Speaker 3: The child is only like twelve or thirteen. Sorry, everybody,
47:32
Speaker 3: but it's just like how the kids are raised also,
47:36
Speaker 3: and if the females in the in the child's life
47:39
Speaker 3: are also participating and training. You know, that's just as
47:44
Speaker 3: powerful as having male role models. You know.
47:49
Speaker 1: And I'll probably cut this because like, this is just
47:51
Speaker 1: the assumption that my sister and I made. But my
47:54
Speaker 1: two year old nephew, for the longest time, did not
47:58
Speaker 1: think that the men in the room were possible, like
48:03
Speaker 1: if he brought them the book that he wanted to read,
48:05
Speaker 1: that they would be able to do it, because that
48:08
Speaker 1: was something me, my mom, and my sister were always
48:10
Speaker 1: doing with them, get a book, get a book. And
48:13
Speaker 1: finally my brother in law was like, he never I'll say, Joe,
48:16
Speaker 1: get a book, I'll read the book or whatever. He
48:18
Speaker 1: never lets me read the book. And my sister texted
48:21
Speaker 1: me one day and she went, well, Zach finally got
48:24
Speaker 1: his shot to read the book to Joe, and he
48:28
Speaker 1: looks so fucking shocked at the entire time that Zach
48:31
Speaker 1: could read.
48:32
Speaker 2: I just think he's.
48:33
Speaker 4: Thought the entire time, Well, Dad and Grandpa don't read.
48:38
Speaker 2: They can't read.
48:39
Speaker 1: That's that's mom, that's Mamnie and nanny. So so I'm
48:43
Speaker 1: already teaching my nephew that men are ignorant.
48:47
Speaker 3: So oh, that's that's even better. No, uh, it's definitely ingrained.
48:54
Speaker 3: And that's I like that every day misogyny things, it's
48:57
Speaker 3: just baked in, it's right there, every layer. And to
49:02
Speaker 3: combat that on the micro level, it's just like, oh
49:05
Speaker 3: my god, I guess I'm doing something for the world.
49:07
Speaker 1: But yeah, but yeah, no, That's why I keep it
49:10
Speaker 1: in because it is it's just baked in. It's in
49:12
Speaker 1: everything that we do, and it does make people stop
49:15
Speaker 1: and go holy shit. It is in the very small
49:20
Speaker 1: micro things that happen to me within a day that
49:25
Speaker 1: just prove to me that we've really gotten maybe a
49:31
Speaker 1: centimeter away from the misogyny that I think is big
49:34
Speaker 1: things like not being able to vote, or own property,
49:38
Speaker 1: or have a credit card, or have reproductive rights.
49:42
Speaker 2: Oh wait, oh.
49:43
Speaker 3: Wait, Well it's relatively new in the larger scheme of
49:47
Speaker 3: things that we have those things right and right now
49:50
Speaker 3: in culture in twenty twenty five. I don't know when
49:53
Speaker 3: this airs, but the whole mentality that well, the reason
50:00
Speaker 3: and we're having problems economically, job wise, whatever, fill in
50:04
Speaker 3: the blank, it's because women have rights, because women are
50:07
Speaker 3: taking their jobs, because they can buy the stuff, because
50:11
Speaker 3: black folks can own a business. Now, it's that's why
50:15
Speaker 3: the world is going to shit because they're breaking up
50:17
Speaker 3: the nuclear family by letting women wear like fill in
50:20
Speaker 3: the drama. It's like, if you really view the world
50:25
Speaker 3: as a place where a man and a woman are
50:28
Speaker 3: implanted with the exact particular intelligence, ambitions and things that
50:36
Speaker 3: men are only allowed to express, that's the problem. That's
50:41
Speaker 3: the literal, actual problem that goes back centuries.
50:44
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I mean they I learned for the
50:50
Speaker 1: first time that the women's suffrage movement spanned at least
50:55
Speaker 1: two wars and took eighty eight years when I was
51:01
Speaker 1: writing a resource guide for children as an adult, and
51:05
Speaker 1: I cried at my desk and someone went, Hilly, what's ron,
51:10
Speaker 1: I go.
51:10
Speaker 2: I never did the math.
51:12
Speaker 4: I go eighty eight years, two wars.
51:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't know. I know that your show
51:21
Speaker 3: probably isn't wrapped around women's roles in the misogyny that
51:26
Speaker 3: men hold. But what I think is so interesting about
51:29
Speaker 3: the suffrage movement that I'm not an expert on, so
51:32
Speaker 3: maybe I shouldn't speak to it. But historically, different factions
51:36
Speaker 3: of feminists have been against each other, and one of
51:41
Speaker 3: the reasons I love to think about is during the
51:45
Speaker 3: suffrage movement, the East Coast liberal elite females were bump
51:52
Speaker 3: locking horns with the West pioneer women, and it's because
52:00
Speaker 3: they were problem solving differently. The East Coast ladies were
52:05
Speaker 3: trying to enact prohibition, which we know now was a
52:08
Speaker 3: terrible idea, and then in the in the West, those
52:13
Speaker 3: ladies had figured out how to hack the situation they
52:17
Speaker 3: and it was all brought to light to me thanks
52:19
Speaker 3: to Hollywood with the show Driftwood, where the female character
52:24
Speaker 3: sent the man character out to do her bidding, and
52:27
Speaker 3: that's how she exercised her power. So she came off
52:31
Speaker 3: as appropriate and lady like and doing the thing. And
52:35
Speaker 3: even though they might give her a little bit of
52:38
Speaker 3: side I like, are you the boss here? I don't
52:40
Speaker 3: know about that that she got away with it because
52:42
Speaker 3: she figured out how to use timilate Timothy Oliphant. And meanwhile,
52:49
Speaker 3: of course, that person, that liberal lady, or that that
52:53
Speaker 3: feminist woman who wants who has the intelligence, who has
52:56
Speaker 3: the ambition, and she's figured out her tribe. She does
53:00
Speaker 3: not want anybody out else out telling her to out
53:05
Speaker 3: there telling her to how to be, how to not
53:08
Speaker 3: do that you want bodily autonomy or you know, telling
53:12
Speaker 3: her what she needs and wants, when really she's figured
53:15
Speaker 3: it out already. She knows how to deal with things.
53:18
Speaker 3: And I think that the Locke and worms thing is
53:20
Speaker 3: real and persists all these decades later. We see it
53:24
Speaker 3: with Trump women, an evangelical women. I haven't seen anybody
53:29
Speaker 3: speak to them about what they care about in their language,
53:32
Speaker 3: and so they just vote with their men because that's
53:37
Speaker 3: who keeps a warmonite, not the liberal lady in New
53:42
Speaker 3: York or whatever.
53:42
Speaker 2: Well, you already made my point.
53:44
Speaker 1: I was going to say, of course we talk about
53:46
Speaker 1: women upholding misogyny because white women came and droves to
53:51
Speaker 1: vote for Trump. We have to talk about it. We
53:54
Speaker 1: have to hold ourselves accountable for shit like that. Well,
53:59
Speaker 1: let's go ahead, move into our closing ceremony. As you
54:04
Speaker 1: think about your career and where you started and where
54:09
Speaker 1: you are now and how misogyny flavored it along the way, Uh,
54:16
Speaker 1: what is a lesson that you would like to impart
54:18
Speaker 1: onto the listeners.
54:21
Speaker 3: I will say that I used whatever adversity that came
54:26
Speaker 3: at me as fuel and it drives me. And I
54:33
Speaker 3: don't even know if it's conscious, like, hey, why don't
54:36
Speaker 3: you go show up so and so today, revenge's best
54:39
Speaker 3: served cold or I don't think along those lines. But
54:43
Speaker 3: it's always been oh, oh I can't do that, Well,
54:46
Speaker 3: maybe I'll figure out how to. And just yesterday I
54:49
Speaker 3: had an interview with the lady for my podcast where
54:53
Speaker 3: she was like, it's because of all these parameters that
54:57
Speaker 3: were against me that became that made me really good
55:00
Speaker 3: to my job. So I would concur that it's just
55:05
Speaker 3: one more obstacle to jump over. I'm bored of it.
55:09
Speaker 3: I'm ready to move forward. And that lack of moving forward.
55:13
Speaker 3: My lawyer told me, my female lawyer told me, she's like, oh,
55:16
Speaker 3: that thing you're bumping up against that it's the glass ceiling.
55:18
Speaker 3: And I was like, oh my god. It was like
55:20
Speaker 3: an eye opener. So once I learned that's what it was,
55:23
Speaker 3: and then you know, navigating from that. So I mean,
55:27
Speaker 3: the advice is just like, you know, don't let it
55:31
Speaker 3: roll off your back, but just know it's part of
55:34
Speaker 3: the system and be ready for it when it comes
55:36
Speaker 3: at you. Because I didn't know, I spent a lot
55:38
Speaker 3: of decades super naive. You can't see it, but I
55:42
Speaker 3: have a placard that my dad got me that I've
55:45
Speaker 3: had for years on my wallet says girls can do anything,
55:49
Speaker 3: And that's what I thought for like the longest time.
55:53
Speaker 3: And I'm just way better at putting myself out there
55:57
Speaker 3: knowing that's other people don't think girls can do anything.
56:01
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's what two thousand's girl Boss feminism taught us.
56:06
Speaker 1: That we can do anything. Yeah, and it's easy. You
56:10
Speaker 1: should just decide to do anything.
56:13
Speaker 3: And it's unreasonable to think otherwise, like this fantasy that
56:18
Speaker 3: people have that well, women can only do this one.
56:21
Speaker 3: I'm sorry everybody, you do not want me to be
56:24
Speaker 3: in charge of dake care of your children. You just don't.
56:27
Speaker 3: I'm not just because I'm female. I don't need to
56:30
Speaker 3: be raised a bunch of babies.
56:32
Speaker 1: You know.
56:32
Speaker 3: I don't teach it how to count or do colors,
56:36
Speaker 3: and you don't want me to do that. So why
56:38
Speaker 3: are you prescribing that as my existence? For me? Let
56:43
Speaker 3: me get I mean, if you want to be godlike
56:46
Speaker 3: about it or into it, it's like, let me use
56:49
Speaker 3: what God assigned me as my talent or skill and
56:55
Speaker 3: be a person who does that thing.
56:57
Speaker 2: Just let it.
56:58
Speaker 3: Like, what is the hang up? Because you feel bad
57:01
Speaker 3: because you can't sleep with me? Because you can't do
57:04
Speaker 3: whatever you want. It's like, that's not all there is, bro,
57:09
Speaker 3: And I know.
57:09
Speaker 1: That you made a point that you weren't thinking about
57:12
Speaker 1: it in the terms of pettiness, but I always do.
57:16
Speaker 1: I'm always like I will text someone and be like,
57:18
Speaker 1: I made this really great contact today and I was
57:21
Speaker 1: so charming and good at it, and I know that
57:24
Speaker 1: so and so would hate that that I got.
57:28
Speaker 2: To do that, and that is what will get me
57:31
Speaker 2: off tonight.
57:32
Speaker 1: Like that, I secretly and somehow they know through the
57:36
Speaker 1: collective energy that I'm succeeding, and I know that they'll
57:41
Speaker 1: hate that.
57:41
Speaker 2: And that's gonna feel so good for me one day.
57:46
Speaker 3: Awesome, that's your assignment.
57:48
Speaker 2: That's that's me.
57:50
Speaker 1: So if you two were like, but I love being petty,
57:52
Speaker 1: you know me too. You know that I've called twenty
57:55
Speaker 1: twenty five the year that Kendrick Lamar gave us permission
57:59
Speaker 1: to be hater, and I've enacted that whenever I could.
58:04
Speaker 3: Yes, I wish I could dance like him. No, I'd
58:08
Speaker 3: like his little shuffle, but no, it's I definitely had
58:13
Speaker 3: an awakening like late in life where I was like
58:18
Speaker 3: I just didn't get it or I was naive in
58:20
Speaker 3: so many ways. And that's kind of the thing about
58:23
Speaker 3: New York City is whatever dreams you had, whatever stars
58:27
Speaker 3: and eyes were there, shattered, gone, put out. And you know,
58:31
Speaker 3: it makes me a better artist, for sure, but it
58:35
Speaker 3: just gets annoying. And also the world doesn't benefit from it.
58:39
Speaker 3: Like the reason everything's crashing and burning is because it's
58:42
Speaker 3: run by people who are trying to shoot a rocket
58:45
Speaker 3: to Mars without even thinking in tandem with it, how
58:49
Speaker 3: to support human life on the way with cradle to
58:51
Speaker 3: cradle technology. Instead, we're running around co rolling because we're
58:56
Speaker 3: mad at the leftist psychos all the problems that they
59:02
Speaker 3: cause by existing. It's like, you know, I guess it's
59:09
Speaker 3: just so goofy that that's what we're doing. But at
59:11
Speaker 3: the same time we have to consider it. It's just
59:14
Speaker 3: a small amount of time, only decades in all of
59:18
Speaker 3: millennia that humans have existed, that we've re evolved back
59:22
Speaker 3: in the folks who are like, oh, women are people
59:25
Speaker 3: and that property. You know, that kind of thinking takes
59:28
Speaker 3: time and a lot of exerted efforts to reprogram and
59:32
Speaker 3: as we know, Martin the King Junior said, arc beens
59:37
Speaker 3: in the long term towards justice. It takes a minute.
59:41
Speaker 3: So I think that's where we are. We're in that
59:42
Speaker 3: cusp of hopefully the patriarchy's death rattle as they go
59:47
Speaker 3: by bye, and it hurts a lot. A lot of
59:49
Speaker 3: people are suffering right now. I'm just gonna feel see
59:53
Speaker 3: the light at the end of the tunnel and feel
59:55
Speaker 3: like we're just got to be the voice to make
59:58
Speaker 3: it change, be a part of the solution.
1:00:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people are suffering right now, and
1:00:03
Speaker 1: I'd like to take a moment to remind everyone that
1:00:05
Speaker 1: I don't care about the male loneliness epidemic.
1:00:09
Speaker 2: Don't. I don't care.
1:00:12
Speaker 3: Well I do, and it's as a mother of a son.
1:00:16
Speaker 3: Well you know.
1:00:18
Speaker 2: It's fixed by the time he has to date totally.
1:00:22
Speaker 3: But but you know, where do those guys come from?
1:00:24
Speaker 3: Then come like Andrew Tait is a great example. He
1:00:27
Speaker 3: wrote his memoir and it's he's gross and he's awful
1:00:32
Speaker 3: in human traffics and tries to get away with it.
1:00:34
Speaker 3: But if his in his words, you can tell that
1:00:37
Speaker 3: he was abused by his dad. Does that excuse Andrew
1:00:41
Speaker 3: Tait and his bullshit?
1:00:42
Speaker 2: Nope?
1:00:43
Speaker 3: But it's informed and you just then approach society as like, okay,
1:00:47
Speaker 3: we have to be more trauma aware. And so to
1:00:50
Speaker 3: bring it back around to my work is I really
1:00:53
Speaker 3: want to tell stories of people, making people aware of
1:00:59
Speaker 3: others of trauma of pain, because that created it just
1:01:03
Speaker 3: break the cycle of violence, break the cycle of the violence.
1:01:08
Speaker 1: What would be a manifestation that you would like to
1:01:12
Speaker 1: put out into the world and feel free to say,
1:01:16
Speaker 1: I just did by saying what I wanted to do
1:01:18
Speaker 1: with my work, because that always works too.
1:01:22
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:01:22
Speaker 3: I mean when I got into filmmaking, I like the
1:01:25
Speaker 3: medium of it because it is all the things. I'm
1:01:29
Speaker 3: just really into arts and crafts and stuff, and I
1:01:34
Speaker 3: always felt like the fear and the unknown and not
1:01:38
Speaker 3: knowing others and how they live has been part of
1:01:41
Speaker 3: the blight. But also folks who are isolated at home
1:01:45
Speaker 3: and getting child abused and then growing into humans realizing
1:01:49
Speaker 3: and being shocked and shattered by the reality that it's
1:01:52
Speaker 3: not normal to have been that. So I just want
1:01:56
Speaker 3: to create media and access everyone who might need a
1:02:02
Speaker 3: version of events that's correct, that's kind, empathetic and relatable.
1:02:10
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. What a great mission statement. You've
1:02:14
Speaker 1: been paying attention and behind the banks.
1:02:17
Speaker 3: Oh and what's funny is I feel so bad for
1:02:19
Speaker 3: not being more involved because I had like twelve projects
1:02:24
Speaker 3: that I just had to jump onto because I don't
1:02:27
Speaker 3: know if you've heard, but in our world and television,
1:02:30
Speaker 3: our jobs are kind of on pause until all the
1:02:32
Speaker 3: gods and CEOs figure out how to make money off streaming.
1:02:37
Speaker 3: So with our free time, we're sitting around making things.
1:02:41
Speaker 3: So maybe that's all we need is to be content
1:02:43
Speaker 3: creators on our own, without the gatekeepers to get the
1:02:47
Speaker 3: messages out there.
1:02:48
Speaker 1: Just do it all behind their backs and yeah, shock
1:02:52
Speaker 1: them when it's all done and good.
1:02:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hope so, you know, because I see my
1:02:59
Speaker 3: college suffering. So it's like I want to talk about
1:03:02
Speaker 3: what hurts what's hurting everybody, you know. So that's why
1:03:05
Speaker 3: I started the podcast Behind the Carnival Barkers that's gonna
1:03:10
Speaker 3: launch July tenth. But that is the reason why I
1:03:15
Speaker 3: feel bad. I haven't been writing my script from Behind
1:03:17
Speaker 3: the Bangs, so.
1:03:19
Speaker 1: We can't be working on all the things at all
1:03:22
Speaker 1: the time. I've just done and it's dumb and I
1:03:26
Speaker 1: wish we could now right.
1:03:28
Speaker 3: I was reading a productivity thing where it's like just
1:03:31
Speaker 3: pick a thing, just one, and then do that. It's like, okay,
1:03:34
Speaker 3: I'll finish the podcast first, you know. Yeah, so time management.
1:03:38
Speaker 1: Well, Amy, Thank you so much for being here. Thank
1:03:42
Speaker 1: you so much for investing time into this episode and
1:03:46
Speaker 1: sharing all of your wisdom and being someone that I
1:03:51
Speaker 1: can call upon when I'm frustrated about all of these things.
1:03:54
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I love talking shop.
1:03:58
Speaker 2: Love you. Please let me know listeners.
1:04:00
Speaker 1: Note, by the time that this episode airs, your podcast
1:04:04
Speaker 1: will be out because we're on break until September.
1:04:07
Speaker 3: So got it? Oh?
1:04:09
Speaker 2: Perfect?
1:04:10
Speaker 3: So yeah, So my pluggable is I'm I launched a
1:04:15
Speaker 3: podcast July tenth. It's called Behind the Carnival Barkers. Do
1:04:19
Speaker 3: you hear my dog and the microphone?
1:04:21
Speaker 2: We love dogs.
1:04:22
Speaker 3: That's fine, Okay, he and my husband come home and
1:04:27
Speaker 3: so he gets the celebrat. Yeah, I don't get the
1:04:30
Speaker 3: barking he does anyway, So now the dog is coming
1:04:34
Speaker 3: to report to me that he's home. But anyway, okay, sorry.
1:04:36
Speaker 3: So my pluggable is that I launched a podcast called
1:04:40
Speaker 3: Behind the Carnival Barkers and it's a whole bunch of
1:04:45
Speaker 3: television industry people and editors talking about work and where
1:04:49
Speaker 3: it is and bosses and the life.
1:04:52
Speaker 2: So I love it.
1:04:54
Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you so much once again for
1:04:58
Speaker 1: being here. And remember, tolerators, I almost ended it without
1:05:03
Speaker 1: doing my own plugs.
1:05:05
Speaker 2: I do that sometimes.
1:05:06
Speaker 1: You can find us at two at men I've tolerated
1:05:09
Speaker 1: Pod on Instagram, to all the men I've tolerated before
1:05:12
Speaker 1: on YouTube, type in Natalie K one two four, and
1:05:15
Speaker 1: men I've tolerated Pod on a bunch of social media
1:05:19
Speaker 1: platforms see what happens, or follow the link in the
1:05:22
Speaker 1: show notes to all of our socials in all of
1:05:25
Speaker 1: the places to follow me personally. And remember, tolerators, you
1:05:29
Speaker 1: don't have to tolerate. You don't have to smile through anything
1:05:33
Speaker 1: you're tolerating, including outdated, boring office politics that are really
1:05:38
Speaker 1: rooted in misogyny, racism, classism, pichanism and should have gone
1:05:45
Speaker 1: by the wayside.
1:05:47
Speaker 2: Smiles are for joy.
1:06:01
Speaker 1: The est name