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Data Ownership and Industry Collaboration in FinTech · Leaders in Lending

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  You're listening to Leaders in lending from Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer
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  lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week, here decision
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  makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry,
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  best practices around digital transformation, and more. Let's get into the show.
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  All right, welcome to the podcast. This week, I want to welcome
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  san Jib Khalita, head of Industry at Fintech Meetup. Sanjib, thanks for
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  joining. Thank you very much, Matt, really wonderful to be here.
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  Yeah, I'm looking forward to the conversation. Why don't you start by maybe
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  describing what the head of industry at Fintech Meetup does. What does that job
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  entail? Sure? Absolutely so. Fintech Meetup is one of the newest and
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  I actually the second largest fintech event, and we try to get folks from
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  across the fintech ecosystem, so startups, banks, investors, technology providers and
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  Michael is to try to help engage the event with the industry and get them
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  to the event. So like our goal is to help move the industry forward
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  in a positive manner. Gotcha, Yeah, that's great. I want to
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  dig into that maybe a little bit later, but tell me how did you
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  end up in that position? Maybe describe a bit of your journey to get
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  there. Sure. Yeah, so I've done all clients of random things,
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  like for example, started my career as a chip deensidnern Intel and designed a
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  programming language that Intel still using thirty years later. Then went to a business
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  school and worked at City Bank in the credit card business for nine years.
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  And then the last fourteen years or so I've been doing startups. So worked
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  on the startup payment platform building technology company called Txvia that we sold to Google.
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  I left Google to help build another conference business called Money twenty twenty,
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  which we also sold, and I was there for about ten and a half
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  years, and I recently left to join fintech meet Up. And also the
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  last five six years so I've been in parallel building my own fintext to culd
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  Guppy, which is a credit burea built on blockchain technology. Gotcha a lot
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  to unpack there, but I definitely see some through lines in terms of,
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  you know, the technology enabling decisions using data. So maybe talk a little
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  bit about that, Like what do you see as the need in industry right
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  now in terms of using data technology as it relates to credit or credit bureaus
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  as you mentioned. Yeah, no, I think that there's a huge opportunity
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  and you know, in terms of availability of new types of data. But
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  also it's sort of like, you know that with anything positive, there's also
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  like if you overreach or if you do something in a wrong manner, ultimately
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  harm consumers are the people you're trying to sell products to, so you know,
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  and I think that that's a bit of like my own personal you know,
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  what gets the fire in the belly going is like just the opportunity,
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  but like also just making sure that we as an industry don't donything stupid,
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  yeah, you know, and try to do right by the consumer. Yeah.
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  And I know you've got a bit of a like personal angle here,
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  like you've been maybe harmed individually in the credit industry and you want to share
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  that story. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know. I used to
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  be at City Bank. I used to help manage one of the largest credit
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  card portfolios in the world, tens of millions of customers, and I used
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  to experience the pain points of bad data and like how I used to make
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  wrong decisions or bad decisions or lead to bad customer experiences. So it felt
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  a b to B pain points of bad data on the system. But then
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  if we go to April of twenty twelve, April first of twenty twelve,
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  I got engaged, and you know, just for your listeners, if you're
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  going to get engaged, don't get engaged on April Fool's Day because no one
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  believes you. But it was true. And on April second, Google acquired
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  the startup I was working on TXVA, which was great. And then April
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  thirteenth, I was actually closing on buying my first home, an apartment in
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  Manhattan, was a co op, and so they had to pull my current
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  report. In April twenty ninth was our wedding date because my mom was so
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  we just wanted to get married as quickly as possible. And so when they
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  pulled my credit report, according to the current report, I was married to
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  man in California. I had five foreclosures, four bad auto loans, you
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  know, obviously all bad data. And you know, so just when I
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  say that doing harm to the customer, like that's something I really felt like
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  I had to in the midst of that month, I you know, I
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  had this surreal process of getting police reports that I am who I am,
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  and it was it was really made me think that, Okay, this system
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  needs to be more consumer friendly. So that's a bit of why we started
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  to build Uppy. Yeah that sounds like a continuous April full stroke all month
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  LONGO. Yeah, it sounds like painful to live through. It sounds like
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  you got through it. I got it cleared up. My wife believed me
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  that I wasn't married to man in California, so that was the main thing.
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  You know, I have happily been married for about twelve years now,
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  and you was able to buy the apartment, got married, and it alterned
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  out great, but definitely more headaches than needed. Yeah, very eventful.
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  I'm so glad it all worked out. But how have you then taken that
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  in terms of turning that into a company idea like you mentioned with Guppy,
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  the idea of maybe decentralizing data out of the hands of a large institution like
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  a credit bureau, and turning that into something that the consumer has more ownership
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  of. So, first of all, you're creating a system that really,
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  I think philosophically tries to put the consumer in control, and so with blockchain,
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  what we've been able to do is sort of basically push control to the
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  edges without sacrificing security. Without blockchain, you have these black box systems that
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  are supposedly highly secure, and because they're tightly controlled, the idea is that
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  you know, that security is more easier to manage. But for example,
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  with the Echofax hack from twenty seventeen that started in February and was not widely
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  known until August September, so once again that that was a bit of a
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  limitation in a black box system. Additionally, with smart contracts, you know,
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  a lot more control over data, a lot more view and you know,
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  trying to modernize a system that has been essentially quite similar infrastructure for like
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  several decades. Yeah, I bet that transparency would be much welcome to consumers
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  in this space. Are you seeing regulators take a viewpoint on this at all
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  in terms of use of blockchain or decentralized databases in terms of credit decisioning or
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  the use in that kind of capacity. Yeah, another great question. And
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  you know, I think I have on one hand spoken to some senior regulators
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  or actually former regulators who have said that actually when I was at the you
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  know, X y Z regulator. I thought that I would leave for a
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  company like yours, So that was actually like very nice to hear in terms
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  of the ecosystem's need. Also depending on the country, like so for example,
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  certain regulators may be a little bit more aggressive, whereas other regulators regulatory
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  regimes might be more you know, let's just look at the use case.
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  I care less about the technology itself. Definitely there's a span of responses,
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  but it's also you know, for me, it's a new technology, and
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  so with any new technology sometimes there can be a market hesitation. Yeah,
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  yeah, I totally agree with the ownership back to the consumer. I guess
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  that probably helps with some of the data cleanliness or accuracy as well, Right,
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  or do you ever think we'll get to a point where data is like
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  perfectly clean and this isn't an issue, or by using this advanced technology maybe
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  we're able to clean up airs faster. Yeah, I do think it's that
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  ladder. By engaging the consumer, I'm hoping for a bit of a cleansing
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  of the data, also building more stronger belief in what the data says.
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  And I think there's always going to be some elements of bad data. That's
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  just the reality of entropy and being part of the universe thing. So yeah,
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  not definitely not the silver bullet, but I think it can make a
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  hopefully a positive Uh yeah, I think you're right. And then we talked
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  before a bit about you know, the kind of bad data leads to bad
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  decisions or the garbage and garbage out kind of philosophy. Do you think that
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  also then translates through into AI or mL type models, you know that tend
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  to be viewed as black boxy as well, Like are we able to translate
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  that data into the decision or if someone wants to dispute a decision, they're
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  able to find the data elements and maybe have more interaction with that process through
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  this. I think that having that interaction, the customer interaction with that process,
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  I think is important. Like just an example as reading an article about
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  like healthcare data, yeah being used and so a lot of times, like
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  you know, if we're in a doctor's office, we're we're feeling physically ill,
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  we're not feeling great, or maybe we just want to get this problem
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  solved as quickly as possible, so we have a series of that we fill
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  out and we're like, oh, you want to share this, Sure,
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  share this? Yeah, why not? You know, like if it gets
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  me in and out quicker, I'll do it. And then later on,
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  you know, like this article talked about, like how you know, there
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  have been cases of you know, some type of marketing or some type of
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  customer messaging that was tied to some of that data that was shared. So
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  like, I think even if you get the customer's permission in order to pull
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  in the data, you don't necessarily even want to have the outflow to be
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  like a less a fair like let everyone add it. I think if you're
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  able to control it on the outflow as well the consumer having the awareness of
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  that, I do think that that's important. It can be overhead, but
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  like depending on the type of data, I really don't want people to know
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  what kind of you know, health issues I might have had in the past.
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  Yeah, I think the healthcare is a good analogy. I think about
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  that too. You know, every time I go to a different doctor or
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  have an appointment, you fill out all of this paperwork. You feel like
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  you've got to relive your family history for generations to try to give them the
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  information they need. Where if I was in more control of that data can
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  facilitate who add access to that data for what purposes. I might be willing
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  to share that speed things up, have a more complete record versus I'm sure
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  I'm not entering that form the same way every time, and would be willing
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  to share that to healthcare providers for treating me versus for marketing purposes. Like
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  you mentioned, So the alignment of data to purpose probably is a key there.
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  It is, it is, and I think that the similarities with both
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  financial services and with healthcare, it's like it tends to be in a very
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  very important time in life or very critical, and if you drop the ball
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  or you lose trust, I think it really does get to the heart of
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  the core value proposition that you're trying to deliver to that consumer. Yeah,
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  I totally agree. Well, I want to switch gears a little bit and
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  go back to the idea of conferences because we had talked about that before as
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  well as a way to exchange or share ideas or stay relevant. Tell me
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  a little bit about like what you're saying in fintech meet up today or in
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  your past in terms of what do people expect out of conferences in a post
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  COVID world, what's the benefit there to them? Sure? Yeah, So
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  like if I you know, even go back like about eleven years to when
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  I worked on Money twenty twenty, you know, it was near to the
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  industry. I sort of unknowingly believed that like speaking and content was like the
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  main value proposition sort of that education. And then like after a couple of
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  years, even through the very first one, like if there was like a
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  startup that was doing an interesting payment solution and there was a bank looking for
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  an interesting payment solution, I try to match them up. If there were
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  investors looking for interesting startups, and you know, vice versa, I would
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  try to match them up. And so then like after the event, I
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  would get emails from both the banker and the startup, or both the investor
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  and the and the company like, hey, thank you, this is very
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  important and helpful. You know, I got to realize that, you know,
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  some of the connections that you can make it and event are the prime
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  value proposition. And then as Money twenty two grew, it was like a
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  little bit of like because there's so many people, you're hoping a bit of
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  serendipity, like you're in the same room you hope to meet and then Fintech
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  Meetup basically was started during the pandemic when there were no live events and you
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  could use digital matching technology to do like basically virtual meetings very quickly and then
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  once we could meet again too. They had their first live event last year
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  and I attended as my startup, and I was like, I had twenty
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  one meetings with a few investors, few potential customers, few potential employees,
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  and I was like, this is really neat, And I just sort of
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  saw it as like, Okay, this is a better use of my time,
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  and basically when the opportunity came, I was like, oh, I'd
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  love to just from it. Like going back to what you said as far
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  as like having a technology mindset, I was like, this is an interesting
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  application of technology to solve problems and to make experience is more better. Yeah.
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  I like that, And it sounds like, you know, these events
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  can almost be like accelerated incubators are a way to get through a lot of
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  different ideas, different partners, like you mentioned, all coming together at a
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  single place around a certain idea or topic, especially even with a data available
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  today, like still being in person seems to really facilitate that it does.
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  And I've heard so many startups that have come to me after an event and
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  said, hey, I basically built my company at that At your last event,
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  you know, I met with several investors, I met with several partners,
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  and you know, we got things going. And so you're absolutely right,
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  Like I think the accelerator comment is actually spot on. Yeah, And
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  so are you finding people find more benefit in like the one to one matchups
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  versus sitting in sessions or the kind of keynote speakers or do you think each
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  of those really has its place in kind of a conference. You know,
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  each of them does have its place. But it's also like I think,
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  when you have one to one conversations, you know, you can say things
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  that you wouldn't want to say very broadly to like thousands of people. Also
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  you can if I'm trying to explain mobile payments to a banker versus a retailer
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  versus a even my parents, it's very different conversations even though you're saying the
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  same thing. So it's sort of like if I tried to talk about mobile
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  payments to a retailer like I do to my parents, retailer would be like,
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  I don't need this, I'm well beyond this, whereas vice versa.
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  I think if I tried to talk to my parents as I do a retailer,
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  they'd be like, Okay, I don't understand this. This isn't for
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  me, This is for someone who's much much beyond and when in reality it
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  can work for both. So I think that having the right conversation makes a
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  huge difference. Yeah, that's true. You're probably also more willing to share,
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  maybe not getting into trade secrets, but a little more on like the
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  how things work, right into the nitty gritty of kind of the complex problems
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  you're trying to solve. Absolutely, And I think that it's partially you know,
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  like if it's very broad, like you might want to protect something that
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  is truly secretive, but also you also might think that, oh, I'm
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  going to put people to sleep if I talk at this level of depth,
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  when in fact, like a lot of times, that level of depth might
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  be the key to making the decision in your favor. Yeah, that's a
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  good point. Are you saying any themes in terms of the types of startups
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  that are coming out now, you know, participating in fintech maete up,
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  like what kind of problems are they trying to solve or technologies they're using.
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  I mean, I think it's the good and the bad is like that there's
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  still a lot of opportunity in improving financial services. And I think that part
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  of it is like because we've sort of been through a bit of a slowdown.
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  I think it forces startups to be more focused with how they communicate themselves.
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  It forces them to be more tight in terms of their value proposition.
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  It also I think in some cases there might have been a bit of arrogance,
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  you know, like a couple of years ago. So and I think
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  it's it's good to have your feet on the ground when you're trying to build
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  something like this. Yeah, that's true. And I think we're starting to
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  see people much more open to partnerships with technology companies. I think, like
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  you said, maybe breaking down the arrogance a bit or understanding that like,
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  not every company can solve every problem for every person. So seeing who's out
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  there finding a really niche solution to something they're struggling with. Are you saying
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  more partnership opportunities across traditional financial services providers and newer entrants or how's that.
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  I think you're seeing more partnerships, like even like with some huge companies like
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  for example, like the partnership with like Adian and Kharma for like issuing,
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  Like right, a couple of years ago, each of them would be in
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  their own universes. But now like you're trying to see, like, okay,
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  where is the overlap? And even with like for example, like banks
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  and traditional issuers and you know, let's say a data startup, there's more
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  of a mutual understanding of like, Okay, what is our overlap? What
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  are we both trying to drive towards? And how can we get to that
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  solution faster? Yeah? Yeah, great, Well, I've really enjoyed our
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  conversation. Is there anything you think I've missed that you think people should know
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  about that you've seen or want to let people know about. Yeah? No,
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  I mean, if you can make it to Vegas for Fintech Meetup this
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  year, definitely urge you to join, And if you're there, definitely look
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  me up. I love meeting people and hearing people. And that's probably my
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  closing statement. Awesome. Well, I know, you know, I've definitely
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  been to a lot of conferences. I find a lot of value in like
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  you said, the one to one hearing some of the sessions and what's going
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  on? Are there other things outside of conferences, like maybe someone you follow
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  closely from a thought leadership perspective, and other podcasts that you follow, Like
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  how do you stay in the loop of what's happening as this space changes day
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  by day? Like maybe I give us a couple sources to help us stay
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  informed like you, Yeah, so I always like looking at thought from outside
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  of my industry primary industries like so, for example, when I was a
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  chip designer, used to like looking at business papers or business periodicals, But
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  now that I'm in business, I like looking at technology periodicals like so things
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  like MIT Technology Review or Wired or you know, those types of things that
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  maybe get into a little bit more. I'm not necessarily reading like ATRIPLI papers
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  now anymore, but maybe a step may be more accessible than that. That's
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  probably another source is like just understanding what people are listening to music wise,
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  media wise. I think that that also helps me just keep up to date,
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  so I don't feel like an old man's you know, to prematurely.
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  I like that, well, you know, I could definitely talk about music
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  for some time that's probably for another podcast. I don't know if that's totally
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  this audience, So maybe we can catch up on that offline. That would
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  be great. Well, it was great again. Thanks Sanji for the time.
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  I hope to catch you in person soon and thanks again, thank you
• 18:59
  very much, Matt. Upstart partners with banks and credit unions to help grow
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