Latest / The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity / 21 | Living with the Hidden Grief of Always Waiting for the Perfect Chapter
Transcript
- Cassandra, LMHC: Hello friends, I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: And I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra, LMHC: And as licensed mental health counselors, we're unpacking the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Loss Podcast. We are so glad you're joining our conversation as we name these losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Please subscribe and share this episode. It helps us grow this community and reach others who need to know that their grief is valid. Let's dive in. Cassandra, LMHC: We talk about quiet losses on this show, and today we're looking at the trap of always waiting for the next perfect chapter. Daiana, LMHC: It's funny how I can think of different parts of my life from being a little girl to being an adult, wanting to buy a house, and always thinking that the future me going to know better, do have all answers, and many times be happy. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And I think we were discussing it briefly yesterday. How I remember being 10 and thinking that being 13, I was going to know everything and have all the answers. And at 13, I was like, okay, I don't know any of the more than I did when I was 10. But when I turn 16, ⁓ I'll know. I'll have all the answers. I'll be able to drive. I'll be able to do the thing because then I'll be a full-fledged teenager. And at 16, I was like, Alright, well maybe when I'm eighteen. And when I'm eighteen, that'll be the ticket, 'cause then I'll be an adult. And I turned eighteen, I was like, well, hopefully twenty-one will change something. And nothing ever felt any different. I know logically that I'm ⁓ a much different now than I was when I was thirteen. But the idea that that thirteen-year-old had about me being a forty-something Daiana, LMHC: Make it Ha ha Cassandra, LMHC: was probably way off. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. ⁓ my God. ⁓ my God. 20 was old. and the joke right now with kids. It's just like they have so much fun. I don't think we had as much fun calling older people boomers, or I don't even think we even had that word at the time. but they have so much fun calling us old now. Cassandra, LMHC: First of all, it's not nearly as old as I thought it was. I'm just throwing that out there. Mm mm. My niece will quite frequently be like, Whatever millennial. And I was like, When is the what since when is that an insult? Like, come on now. Daiana, LMHC: When is that a bad word? That's so funny. Cassandra, LMHC: It's like I don't even know what you are. It cracks me up. Daiana, LMHC: I know. You're a baby. ⁓ that that would be an insult. Well, you're a baby. Cassandra, LMHC: we'll c we'll kick it old school style. Daiana, LMHC: Right. And the interesting thing is that when you're saying all your ages, I can remember each one as well because I remember wanting to be double digits. and I think at the time was like to be able to hang out with my older cousins and be older. I remember 13. ⁓ I swear I was going feel different. I'm like, I'm gonna feel so different. I'm gonna be a teenager and then jump to 16. ⁓ Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: As well, in Latino culture, we have either Quinceanera or Sweet 16. And I remember one my cousins, she had a Sweet 16, I was like, I'm so She's like two years older, so excited to turn 16. She's like, Nothing's gonna happen. And I'm like, ⁓ What? You're wrong! ⁓ something's gonna happen. ⁓ Cassandra, LMHC: There's gonna be like a pomp and circumstance, or gonna be blessed with the knowledge of the universe. Something is gonna happen. Daiana, LMHC: Then eighteen is like I'm I'm legal. What the heck does that mean? it wasn't life changing, unfortunately. And same thing for twenty one. Cassandra, LMHC: and it's this idea that we ⁓ assume that this ⁓ idealized me is this incredibly rested superhero who never gets overwhelmed, who never has bad day, and who is have ⁓ the the wherewithal to just kinda take care of everything and know everything and do everything. And leaves the present day us deal with whatever messy reality that we're living in. I know sometimes I'll be like, ⁓ Future Me is gonna hate me for this or Future Me is gonna thank me for this, whatever it is that I'm doing, or I'm just feeling overwhelmed and looking towards the future for when this was just a memory. Daiana, LMHC: Right. Yeah. When is this part gonna end? As I think about it and ⁓ I'm going with you, ⁓ I can how we want to know what's gonna happen. So it's like we want safety and we want control. And we don't suffer. ⁓ Because life is hard enough and it feels like ⁓ most of the time that you're going from one thing ⁓ to And it's like, okay, when is it all gonna be done? And ⁓ and all fruits of my labor, you know, shows up and I have this this ⁓ life. Cassandra, LMHC: because ⁓ I just thinking ⁓ I live with generalized anxiety I'm just kinda anxious all the time. ⁓ And I like to think about fact that I can't really remember what I was anxious about a year ago. So like and no, it's great. I love it because it lets me know that a year from now, I'm not gonna remember about what I'm anxious about right now. Daiana, LMHC: ⁓ God, doesn't that suck? Well you know. Yeah. I was thinking it sucks because it's like, was I anxious? ⁓ look at ⁓ the time that I being anxious. That would be me. Cause I feel I would feel robbed and I often do, ⁓ you know, feel ⁓ of ⁓ man, i ⁓ if I wasn't blank in past, I would have been enjoying this or that. Right? It it can't it can rob us. ⁓ of actually living the present that we are living. I feel a lot of that in parenting as well because I'm like, ⁓ when when my little one is more independent, Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: and then not enjoying the stage we are in now. Cassandra, LMHC: And there's a lot of grief wrapped up in that, right? that's kind of the whole point of what we're doing here today is talking about the grief that's connected to that. And know that we have similarities in the fact that we have two older children and then one that's quite a bit younger. And I find that I am present with the younger than I was with the other two when they were little, just because I know how fleeting this time is. And that even gives me grief, about the sort of parent I was to the other two. It was always go, go, go, we have to get this done and not really understanding the stages of life that they're in. And now ten years later I have this four year old that I'm like, All right, this is what we're doing today and it's okay. Everything is alright. ⁓ And I grieve a little not ⁓ having taken that if the past me what the future me knows. ⁓ Then it would have been a little bit different. Daiana, LMHC: I think that ⁓ we often people on or ⁓ on social talk about writing a letter to your past self or what would you tell yourself? You know, your present self, what would you tell your past self and how would that help you? And I noticed that most of the time, whatever you're telling yourself, your younger self, still applies to you today. Cassandra, LMHC: That's probably why it's a really good exercise. And then I'm the one that likes to burn it afterwards. let's write these letters and then set them on fire because we need to release it somehow. Whatever that hope is, whatever that expectation is, whatever that grief is. I don't really want to release the hope, but it kinda releases it into the the ether, ⁓ if will. It it allows for it to have more a reality base if we just ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: let it go. Let go of the expectations and it gives us more hope and makes it possible for us to live with that sort of grief in a more manageable way. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I think what we let go in that moment too, like you said, is not the hope or wanting the thing or still applying to you today. It's leave letting go of the desperation for it. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: Or if it's something you want to let go of completely, let letting go of that desperation to keep it with you and whatever you think it's doing for you. Cassandra, LMHC: And that's something you and I were personally talking about not long ago, because I have a hard time holding on to memorabilia things, ⁓ that I don't know what to do with, things that I can't seem to part with, but don't really want to hang on to at the same point in time. I really, really struggle with that. And I a lot of that is the what if. What if the future me wants this? What if the future me ⁓ feels like can't live without this? What if, what if, what if? And like I said, I live with a whole lot of anxiety, so sometimes that wins. And other times I just that I can love this and release this. ⁓ that's okay too. Daiana, LMHC: Right. ⁓ and we're gonna get a bit into what the psychology of it is. And when I think about things we want to hold on to, we're thinking about our future self. What if we need this? What if we can use this later? Or what if I'm gonna miss it? But it's we're talking about present us. Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely. And we kind of live a little bit more in the present when we release the expectation of the future us. So if like you said, break it down, it's that future self disconnect. ⁓ we have this idea that based ⁓ off research when we think about our future selves, our brain activity. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: looks exactly the same as when we think about a complete stranger. And because of that we idealize this person that this future self is gonna be. We taken by surprise when we get to that future self ⁓ it's the same thing as it's always been. It's just a slightly more grey version of ourselves. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. That's a lot to expect from a stranger. know, we have ⁓ this that that person that we're talking about that it's us in the future. We don't know, we don't know them. And we put so much ⁓ idealism, you were saying, to this person who's going to have this, This bandwidth that we don't have right now, this patience that we don't have right now, the ⁓ of that we don't have right now. ⁓ They're going to meal prep, do your do the chores, have work-life balance, have everything done flawlessly. Cassandra, LMHC: Listen, if future me can meal prep, I would appreciate them to come back and teach me how to do it now because I would love to get on that bandwagon. I just ain't got it in me. there's that temporal discounting, the the tendency to prioritize immediate comfort today, which is not meal prepping, ⁓ offloading all of the heavy lifting, all the things that I want to do to the future me. So she'll take care of it, she'll figure this out, she'll get it done. And ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: We subconsciously believe that our future schedule will somehow miraculously be less busy. Like, ⁓ I will have more time to meal prep or to work out or to be mindful or to take vacations or all those things in the future. And then the future comes and because I haven't changed anything now, it's still the same shenanigans it's always been. Daiana, LMHC: Right. And I do have so much compassion us, ⁓ even my for myself when we're going through this, ⁓ because what you were saying earlier about that discomfort, the discomfort and pain. ⁓ So going through pain ⁓ and ⁓ to ⁓ I'm this situation. And yes, maybe when I get a divorce, or yes, when I get the new job, or when this milestone that I'm going to feel better. ⁓ that of eases us, makes us feel a bit calmer that there there is that hope or a sense of control that we're going to be okay. ⁓ And at the end of the day, when you do get the divorce, when you do sell the house or buy the house or get the job or move, you're still you. Cassandra, LMHC: There's the idea of wherever you go, there you are. And it's always going to be the same idea that whatever problem I have here, I'm just gonna take with me into the next set of circumstances ⁓ I do something about it now. So like this idea of the fresh start, like I used to be really bad about I'll start this on Monday. I can't do anything on Friday. I can't do something new on Friday. It's gotta be a Monday thing. ⁓ ago I stopped making ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Yes. Yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: New Year's resolutions because it didn't matter anyway. I realized that if I wanted to change something, I had to just do it today. I couldn't wait for that Monday. I couldn't wait for that that place. January 1st. I couldn't wait for that birthday or that Christmas ⁓ to set ourselves up for those milestones is a constant state of grief because what happens when we choose not to change anything? I remember even like studying for our state boards. Daiana, LMHC: Right. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Like I put that off as long as I possibly could because Future Me was gonna take care of that. And ⁓ when I got a month out and still didn't know anything and I was shocked and grieving that Future Me hadn't suddenly taken care of that or wasn't great at studying or all of the different things that I didn't do anything to change, it was really hard to realize that now is the time that I have to do something. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I I it sounds like in all of it, we're making our present day self just feel bad put ourselves down and not realizing that those or aspects of that future self are are within you. You are all those things and you have allow yourself to be sad for ⁓ not having things as you expected them to be, not being as as or as perfect as you thought you were gonna be at this thing. I do see a little bit of a shift on social media when where people are saying like not Pinterest. Like instead of saying like Printeress Worthy ⁓ or fail, they're they're saying like not Pinterest, but it works for me. And I think that's a good shift because that comparing will always just be a a trap. Cassandra, LMHC: And that's the hard part. It's the comparing even of ourselves, ⁓ comparing this future self to our past self, comparing all the different versions of me. And that's where we can get caught in up in like the regret and the grief and the pain and all of the suffering that goes along with not allowing ourselves to be exactly who we are. And when we're constantly comparing ourselves to someone else or something else, then we can't actually live in the moment. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. When were saying that phrase, like wherever you go, there you are. I remembered a book that dare to say changed my life. think it's funny when people say that, like this book changed my life. ⁓ But the that book was super impactful my life. And it's called Going Into Pieces Without Falling Apart. And I can't remember. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: The author. But I will put it in the show notes if anybody's interested. ⁓ is one of the ⁓ that stuck with me. And even if I still did the thing ⁓ thinking my my future self will be better, I still went back and said, no, but that's still gonna be me. And that's the process may look like for us to change that. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I'm not gonna be a better person when I'm ⁓ pounds lighter. I'm not going to be a more successful person when I run a 5k or a marathon. It's still a version ⁓ you. Yes. Are you can you have more discipline or get things from ⁓ Of course. ⁓ most the time it's not the accomplishment itself. It's who you are becoming through the process. And it is still you. Cassandra, LMHC: It's everything that you've learned along the way. It's this idea ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ doing now is setting us up for whatever it is that we need next. Because wherever I go, there I am. So if I keep hyper fixating on the things that don't go right, if I keep hyper fixating on the fact that ⁓ everything going to be different in the future. then everything's gonna stay the same when I get there. Daiana, LMHC: Yes, And when talk about living loss, it's when in the thick of it. And we tend do something that's called delay tactics. We push it away. And pushing away is actually a strategy, a coping skill that does help. And you can't just that. And you can't push away so far that. you'll say something like, I'll finally process this relationship, or I'll finally process this breakup or or the the passing of my grandmother when slows down, when the kids are out of school, or the kids are older. Cassandra, LMHC: And we can take it in this the moment that when you finally reach that next stage you realize that you're still the exact same person that you have been this entire time, recognizing grief surrounding that, but also giving yourself the grace to know that in this moment I can be a little bit different. In this moment I can make a little bit of a change. ⁓ Because we keep pushing it off, if we keep using these delay tactics, then nothing's ever gonna change. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Right. No, and that's when we realize, wow, five years have passed by and we're like, What just happened? Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And those five years go quicker than any other time period ever can. ⁓ ⁓ touched on the the pandemic and all the different things in previous episodes. ⁓ that was six years ago now. Almost not quite to the date, but almost we're about two months out from when everything shut down. And people about it in in passing, but Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I know, wild. Cassandra, LMHC: those were some really huge changes happened for people. Not only was there so much loss during that time, but there was also the ⁓ believe career ⁓ counseling professor it like the shift in ⁓ the great job change or something like that. There was a name and like so many people were home and realized that they hated their lives and hated their jobs and hated all of these things, so made huge ⁓ Changes where they had more control over their day-to-day more ability to do whatever it was that they actually wanted to do. I have a friend that if you ask him what he does, he does not tell you about his job. He tells you about where he's traveling to, he tells you about what he does for fun. ⁓ He you about what interesting hobbies he's taken up. He's never once told you about what he does for work unless you directly ask him what he does for work, because work is not what he does. Work is what provides the life that he wants. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. I love that. Mm-hmm. goes back and reminds me of what you were saying, that you don't do New Year's resolutions. I don't do them either. And do an intention. And that man sounds intentional. Cassandra, LMHC: He's incredibly intentional. Like if you looked up the word intentional in the dictionary, you would see his picture next to it in all of his glory. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. He would be there. Yeah. Yeah. And when we're thinking about the present, you about loving being friends with who you are right now, having compassion for who you are right now. Right? Because how do we bridge that gap between who we are today and who we hope to be? Right. And the work is in stopping and stop waiting ⁓ for imaginary perfect future self. Cassandra, LMHC: And there's also ⁓ I'm just also thinking like there's ⁓ That feels like a lot of expectation, right? So if I've spent my whole life setting my future self up for whatever disaster it is that I'm creating today. ⁓ There can be a lot of guilt and shame surrounding that, and realizing that I need to be more focused on where I am, where my feet are. So I I can work towards being more present. I can work towards from offloading all the heavy lifting to the future. I can ⁓ that self compassion. I can allow the tired and messy version of myself, knowing that. This is taking steps towards being the future self I want to be as long as I can be kind to the the one that I am today. There's a lot of grace that goes along with that. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. A theme that I heard a lot during COVID, it was the and I felt the same way too, was the unknown. And the people used unprecedented so many times. And everything is unknown. we're done recording today is unknown. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: When I leave this room is unknown. Everything is unknown, but it was really ⁓ in such a massive scale and interface that we were like, everything is unknown. The predictability wasn't there as we understood it and we knew it. Cassandra, LMHC: It comes back to that idea of control. We never really have the control that we think that we have. So every day, every moment, like you were saying, is an unknown. And things are gonna happen that there's no way that we can predict or for. The entire world shutting down was something that nobody could predict it or plan for. And those that could may may not have, I don't know, because I wasn't in those shoes. ⁓ I I didn't plan for it. I had no idea I was gonna spend four months at home with my children. Daiana, LMHC: Absolutely. Yeah. absolutely. Cassandra, LMHC: That was that was quite the time. Daiana, LMHC: Quite the time. And as we wrap up today's conversation, we're moving to our favorite part of the show. It's the Living Lost Lessons. This is where we bridge together everything we've talked about with tangible takeaways that we can use right now. Cassandra, LMHC: These lessons aren't about fixing the pain, but about finding a way to carry them. Sometimes it's a tool to practice, and other times it's reflecting on the meaning you've built from a loss you've never asked for. It's the strength that you've gained even in the midst of the hard stuff. So Daiana, what would your one living lesson be that you've learned from this journey? Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. I feel like I'm in the thick of it right now. And I am, right? ⁓ grief is is so layered, And when we lose someone we're we love, we're losing that person, but we were we also lose that part of ourselves as who we were with that person in the world, And one thing that I'm working through now is the very real grief of having to slow down. ⁓ today we talked a lot about like our future selves and and those expectations. And what I've been working on is actively is to lose those expectations of who I thought I would be today, June 2026. Because if you know me, I'm I Not that I I don't do resolutions, but I do set massive goals. do set a lot of high for myself. this me navigating this season grief ⁓ and ⁓ that thought that continues to pop up my all the time is that I'm time. I have to to remind myself that I'm dismissing the work that I am doing ⁓ single day. That I'm not valuing it ⁓ the big accomplishments or the or whatever it is that I'm doing, right? That what I'm actually doing now ⁓ is hard work. ⁓ Of letting go of the expectations I had for myself and the productivity that grief does take away those things from you. how about if that's for me? Right? Maybe if it's this forcing me to at the future in a way, To look at myself in the present. And forcing myself just to exist in these micro moments and to notice life. And that is like a real-time my living loss lesson. Cassandra, what living loss lesson would you want to share today? Cassandra, LMHC: I don't know if I can follow that. Daiana, LMHC: Well, you know, nah, I'm not gonna share anything, but like we had a really ⁓ great conversation on Monday. I think it really applies to our conversation. I think I know that this is why we thought of this episode, right? Cassandra, LMHC: But Mm-hmm. The idea that I have right now when I'm thinking about the conversation that we had on Monday and when I'm thinking about what's going on today and and what's going on with different people that I care about. I just need to know and need to remind myself and need to remind our listeners that it is okay to take the time that you need. It is okay to address the things that you need to address. And it's also okay to release the things that you can't hold anymore. Because corny as it sounds sometimes, sometimes things just happen the way they happen, and honestly, sometimes they happen for a reason. Unfortunately, last Recording that we did, I wasn't able to be there for, I wasn't able to be present for. And in hindsight, I realized that there was probably a really good reason for that. as much as I wanted to be there, as much as I felt I needed to be there, it wasn't something that my present self could wrap its brain around until my future self looked back and was like, ⁓ this is why that happened. So there's things that happen today we don't quite know ⁓ they're happening until we get to that future self and we can reflect back on. If I reflect back on the way I was when I was thirteen and I thought everything would be better at sixteen and eighteen and twenty one and thirty and forty and all these different things, I would be this vastly different person. I am, ⁓ I'm just not in the way that that thirteen year old predicted. So giving myself to appreciate each as it happens while realizing that I can look back on the stage before and not necessarily with regret, but with reflection. That means a lot to me. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's such an important message. The that reflection piece as well. thank you, Cassandra, and thank you to all of our listeners for a part of our circle today. ⁓ Remember, by sharing this episode, you're helping us reach someone else who's carrying loss in silence. Let's keep growing this community together. Share, subscribe, follow. ⁓ And know that your story matters. Cassandra, LMHC: And just as a reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we are not your therapist, and this does not replace professional mental health care. If you feel like you'd like to speak to someone, please reach out to a professional near you. And thank you for being with us today. Daiana, LMHC: Absolutely. Thank you. ⁓