Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Family Boundaries: Supporting Children Through High-Conflict Divorce
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you deal with the most challenging human interactions, those involving someone with a high conflict personality. My name is Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host Bill Speaker 2 (00:20): Eddie. Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:22): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute and conflict influencer.com where we focus on training, consulting, coaching classes, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. So welcome back listeners. Thank you for joining us today we are going to be talking about relationships of course, because that's all we talk about pretty much or something that affects relationships. Today we're talking about what to do when you are a grandparent of a child or children whose parents are involved in a high conflict divorce or custody, co-parenting relationship, and some of the yucky stuff that comes with that. And then we have another question from a listener about her own co-parenting relationship. Buckle up, let's see what we have here today. Alright Bill, so this listener has asked if we would consider dedicating an episode to grandparents. My son has been in a difficult divorce for 15 months and as a grandparent I've tried to support both my son and my young granddaughter. Speaker 1 (01:34): Through the transition. I practice Biff communication with my daughter-in-law and I recognize so many of the patterns you described in your splitting book. But here's where I'm struggling, what can I do when my seven-year-old granddaughter repeats slightly distorted things, sometimes shows disdain toward her father or speaks in a worried tone. Both parents currently share temporary 50 50 custody. Her mom has been treated for bipolar disorder. Her dad is stable, follows the court orders and shields their daughter from hearing negative comments. Their child is thriving in school, seeing a child's psychologist and loves both parents deeply still it's clear her mother is pushing for primary custody and painting her dad as unfit as grandparents. How can we best navigate this delicate space and offer steady support without adding to the conflict? We really need guidance. Alright, bill, what do you think? Speaker 2 (02:34): Well, I think first for grandparents, it's a tough position because you don't really have authority with the child and the court cases have said grandparents really have few if any rights with a child. So you pretty much have to be careful with your own interactions with the child, but also offer your son some suggestions. But I say offer because sometimes sons and daughters don't want advice. So by offering, saying here's something that might be helpful, you might consider that that's more likely that they may listen to you. So there's two things. One is working with your son and the other is working directly with your granddaughter. So first working with your son if you have a pretty good relationship is you can suggest some things. And the thing I would suggest is to encourage your son to teach his daughter the four big skills for life, which are flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior, and checking yourself. Speaker 2 (03:52): And this is what we teach in all of our new ways, methods, not just for families but for the workplace, for teenagers and even couples. Couples intact families and couples parents and intact families as well as parents with separated, separated and divorced families. So by teaching his daughter those, it helps her so he can set limits with her and say we manage our emotions or we use flexible thinking or moderate behavior. And what you just said isn't very moderate, it's very insulting what you just said to me or to somebody else. So you have a context for saying this isn't okay. Because what's okay is we treat each other with respect in a moderate way and that's kind of extreme behavior. So that's not a good idea. So it helps with her own behavior, but it also helps her understand her mother's behavior because if her mother is saying things doing extreme things, he can say, we're trying not to do extreme. Speaker 2 (05:10): That's a little extreme, that thing you just told me about. We're trying not to do that so that way you don't get in trouble for badmouthing the mother. The son doesn't get in trouble for that and you don't as grandparents get in trouble for that. So I think encouraging your son for that. And of course a good resource for that. We have our book Biff for co-parent communication and teaching. The four big skills is in appendix B of the Biff for co-parent communication book. So just like a four page article that he may find helpful, and I might add, this is the time of year to start thinking about holiday gifts. And if he doesn't have the Biff for co-parent communication book, this might be one to think of, hey, here's it's time for a gift and this is the one we pick for you. Speaker 2 (06:06): So that's a thought. Now directly with the 7-year-old granddaughter is you can reinforce the four big skills for life, but also, and you can suggest this to the sun, this is an issue about setting limits and setting limits and imposing consequences is a big theme for us this fall. What you want to do, you can yourselves and also encourage your son to do this, to say, Hey, that's not okay to say things that way. Here's the better thing to do. And it says, well, I'm going to say whatever I want. You're going to say, well, if you're going to do that, you're not going to have whatever you want. That's special thing I was going to do for you next weekend. I might not feel like doing that if you treat me this way. And so a consequence could be very light consequence. Some of the best consequences are I'm not going to do you favors next weekend if you treat me this way. Speaker 2 (07:11): I don't feel like doing favors for someone that treats me this way. So having them know there's a consequence. And that's the thing, so many people think in terms of setting limits, saying, well, you can't do that and you have to do this. But with children and high conflict adults, setting limits often isn't enough, really have to have a consequence. But consequences don't have to be heavy timeout for three weeks or taking your cell phone away for three weeks or something like that, that that's a pointless consequence. You want consequences that fit the problem. Usually that can happen right away. I'm not going to do this or you're not going to be allowed to do that. So that would be the principles. I'd say the four big skills and also setting limits and mentioning consequences. Speaker 1 (08:06): Okay. So what comes to me is that really setting limits and imposing consequences is a lost art. We've replaced it with just fighting or complaining or avoiding. Right. Speaker 2 (08:22): You're right, you're right. Speaker 1 (08:24): It's kind of the laws of nature. Consequences are definitely the laws of nature and we've just forgotten that. So we think we can talk to someone, we can explain it or we get mad or we fight it, complain about it instead of just setting a limit. It's just the most beautiful, beautiful skill once you get it. Speaker 2 (08:47): I totally agree. Speaker 1 (08:48): Yeah, I thought you might, since you just wrote the book, setting limits and Imposing Consequences. Speaker 2 (08:54): Yeah, Speaker 1 (08:55): I just spoke with a dad last night whose divorce is several years in the past now, and both children are adults now. And mom has suddenly popped up even though there's been no contact at the dad's request for several years. And the mom somehow found her way through, I think through a social, he doesn't even do social media, but just LinkedIn. And that kind of gives an open door to anyone and instead of getting upset about it, he just set a limit with it. Now a limit in that situation might be just not responding at all, but in this situation, there was a request for getting some items that she'd left behind at his house several years ago. And so he just said, here's what I'm going to do. I will put these items in storage and I will send you the key. Basically setting the limit instead of negotiating back and forth or asking what she wanted to do or what wanted him to do because he saw it was an obvious attempt to just connect with him because the conversation then went into other things like, I have all these problems and I'm really sorry about everything that happened, but still made the whole conversation about her. Speaker 1 (10:17): It all always came back to her. So he just set the limit done out. And then what that does is it reduces the amount of time you spend on it, which thereby of course reduces the stress and you just get your life back. Right, Speaker 2 (10:35): Yeah. Speaker 1 (10:36): And doesn't take the brain space. Speaker 2 (10:38): Yeah, exactly. I think what you're saying and just said a little earlier that it's a lost to art was setting one that's and imposing consequences I think. And that has been replaced by arguing. And I think that in many ways that comes from our more entertainment oriented culture, which thrives on drama and dramas very entertaining. But it's not the way to live. Speaker 1 (11:07): It's not so not, it's such bad examples Speaker 2 (11:12): And the brain space it takes up. Like you said, Megan, I think we have to really learn to separate what's entertainment and drama and how do you solve problems and the role models for solving problems that we see in entertainment really don't fit real life. I think of the thing of yelling at somebody and storming out of a room. I had that happen in a mediation a while ago and I was going, wait a minute, I've seen this somewhere. Oh, every sitcom has a scene where someone yells at someone and walks out of the room and it's like that gets stuck in our head for how you deal with a conflict and that's not how you deal with a conflict. That's how you perform a drama. Speaker 1 (11:56): Right, right. Speaker 2 (11:58): So just getting clear in our heads, problem solving does include setting remotes and imposing consequences. And to some extent it is a lost start. This is something we kind of always expected that we can't do this or someone will fire us or someone will split up with us or whatever, and we forget that now. So we do have to pay attention to not offending people, but problem solving with them. And I think that the better we're clear on that, the easier it is to solve problems. Speaker 1 (12:36): I completely agree. I think we've become quite soft and mushy on the setting limits and pretty much afraid to do it, but it is very liberating. So if we go back to this grandparent question, if we think about setting limits as a grandparent, it's pretty awful that a grandparent, I guess the general law has said, let's kind of not let the grandparents have too much of a say in here, which I think is insanity. Speaker 2 (13:07): I agree. Speaker 1 (13:08): Depends who the grandparent is, I suppose Speaker 2 (13:10): A big mistake. Speaker 1 (13:11): Yeah. That's Speaker 2 (13:11): Just not how you got to have grandparent input. Speaker 1 (13:14): It's just not how families work. And so there's only so much you can do as a grandparent because you have the law. You have courts that are supporting having to enforce that law, may not supporting it, but they have to do what they have to do. So it kind of puts you in this position of feeling a little bit stuck and what do I do? And I have this seven-year-old grandchild and maybe starting to lean away from dad or could be leaning away from mom, whichever parent, and we just don't want to see that. And I think a lot what we're seeing so often is parents who are stuck in this mire of indecision and just feeling handcuffed because they're afraid to set a limit because they'll lose that child, they'll lose that child's love and the child's already leaning toward that other parent. So grandparents get stuck in that as well. Speaker 1 (14:07): So I think one of the most important things we've talked about recently is leaning into setting limits and imposing consequences instead of just letting teenagers or younger kids run your life, you're on the back foot and you're thinking, what move do I make? Do I pay for this child's expensive schooling or do I pay for this child's car? The child treats me like garbage, won't even see me, won't talk to me. Just everything is in barricading a relationship. And I see many parents so afraid just immobilized in those situations. So I like what you say, just kind of leaning into, we can't let the teens run the world. We kind of have to lean into setting our own limits and pushing back in that way. Speaker 2 (15:02): Absolutely. And the common standards, and I think this is what's so hard on parents today, is that there aren't what seems like common standards. And it used to be, I remember as a teenager growing up, I was somewhere once at a store or something like that. I said, does your mother know you're here? It's like, whoa. Speaker 1 (15:27): And Speaker 2 (15:27): So there's a sense of community reinforcing of the same standards and expectations. And I remember if the school teacher or the principal said, you can't do something, that parents backed it up. Parents didn't go to school and say, why are you picking on my child? They said, child, you've got to listen to the school teacher and to the principal and do what they tell you. We're behind them when you're with them, that's in charge. And I think there's that missing teamwork of supporting parents and supporting some common standards of behavior. But one thing I wanted to add is I think, and it may be hard, but I think parents and grandparents in setting limits is keep it simple. Matter of fact, hey, you can't talk to me that way. You know better than that and here's what you can say. So it's like just making it matter of fact and routine. Because a lot of times people feel like I have to have a big confrontation. I have to teach a lesson and I've got to have this major emotional confrontation and don't, a lot of limit setting can be just very matter of fact, Hey, that's enough of that. That's all stuff like that. Speaker 1 (16:53): And we're afraid to do that. Speaker 2 (16:55): Yeah, Speaker 1 (16:55): We become afraid to do that. We're so handcuffed. And then if there's a meltdown, if the child has a meltdown, right, then it's off for a diagnosis somewhere and then it's, I'm not going to let you see this child. And there's so much fear and I think you really just have to get back to common sense and override that fear. And there are some variables you can't control, like what's going to happen in court to the other parent's attorney might be, and what they might be aiming toward. And there's just so many other variables. But really the best you can do is be you and be reasonable and stick to those four big skills yourself. I've been working with a lot of parents lately who they go outside on one little thing doing something that's just kind of anger, big blow ups and things. It's like, alright, well just work on that. Just work on that, how to manage your emotions and do a little repair work with your child and keep moving on. But common sense, don't get bogged down in sharing your emotions with your child. Let the child be a child. All of those things. And it's just simple little reminders like that. It doesn't have to get bigger. We can keep the conflict small. Speaker 2 (18:13): Exactly. Speaker 1 (18:13): So do what you can that's in your control, Speaker 1 (18:18): But it's up to you as we love to say. Okay, now another question here, bill. My ex-husband remarried just a year after our divorce. To be honest, that didn't surprise me. He married quickly since our split. He's been very high conflict, rarely following the parenting plan, but not in way strong enough to take it back to court. He often denies me. My court ordered phone calls with our son claiming I'm interrupting his parenting time. He won't share even basic updates like how preschool is going or if our son has a fever. Instead, he refers to me as a third party and blames me for every bad behavior our son shows. We share 50 50 custody to protect my sanity. I recently committed to strict Biff responses, brief, informative, friendly, and firm good work. I also mirror the same flexibility he gives me, which is none because whatever I've tried to compromise, I've ended up burned. Speaker 1 (19:15): His pattern is predictable. If he needs something, he starts off nice. But the moment I don't fully agree, or if I don't respond within four hours, even though I'm only required to respond within 24, he shifts into belittling in hostile messages. Now, his new wife has reached out to me saying she wants to build a positive co-parenting relationship, but here's where I'm stuck. My ex has PTSD and a traumatic brain injury from his time in the military. And he often shows strong narcissistic traits. So I don't know if her messages are genuine or if they're part of a new dynamic where they work together to maintain control. On my end, I've been setting hard boundaries. I even cut ties with his family on social media to reduce the emotional drain. But I'm wondering, is that making him and his new wife push harder or is she truly trying to help? So here are my questions. I'll give you a couple at first Bill because there's a few here. How do I manage this dynamic? What boundaries make the most sense and what red flags should I be watching for? Speaker 2 (20:13): Well, I forget the first, but the boundaries. What boundaries should I say? I think just ordinary relationship boundaries, what you're willing to talk about when you're willing to talk. I would say work with that because I've seen a lot of cases where first wives and second wives have actually been able to support each other. And I even had a consultation once where they were collaborating on trying to get the father to tweet his son better. And when he was at home with the second wife and when he was having contact with the first wife and that they were a team, they were both on the consultation, how can we deal with this guy who's a father but doesn't have great parenting skills? And we both want to help him improve his parenting skills. So there's potential for a positive relationship, things to watch out for or warning signs, preoccupation with blame is what I often see as the first when they start blaming you or they blame somebody else a hundred percent that they're kind of a blaming personality. That's the high conflict personality and that's where you want to keep your distance so you don't become a target of playing too easily. But I wouldn't assume that it's going to be negative and manipulative. It could be positive and actually help in your dealing with your ex. So I think that just taking it as reasonable thing with a healthy skepticism, but be positive and see where it goes. Don't try to be super close, not too close, not too rejecting. That's often the theme in this kind of situation, Speaker 1 (22:17): And I'm thinking, I don't think I read this out loud, but the mothers is saying that she had married him too quickly after just 11 months. So they married just a year. He'd married both women after just a year of knowing them and dating. So maybe kind of quick. So I'm thinking that maybe new wife just didn't really know him that well. And then when you get into these relationships, you're married kind of quickly, then you start to see some of the patterns that aren't so positive and some of those behaviors. So perhaps now new wife is catching on and thinking, okay, I really want to help here. And maybe the way I do that is to reach out to mom and try to make things. Okay. So I think that's what worth considering while doing the things you said, bill, not getting too close, not getting too, being too distant. Speaker 1 (23:16): Be careful about what information you share. Let the trust build over time about what you share and don't get into a badmouthing back and forth. Sometimes I've, I've seen the ex-wife and the new wife kind of get into that pattern of bad mouthing and the dad, and that's not good either. So it is trying to stay positive. It's making proposals, it's doing whatever you can to keep the conflict small. So perhaps the new wife has good intentions. And I like what my husband says about new people in our lives. We don't know her yet, but we will. And that really has stuck with me. We don't know that person yet, but we will. So during that period of time, getting to know the person, just be careful, maintain the healthy skepticism as you said, bill, and don't share too much personal information, stay child focused and don't engage in gossip and badmouthing and spreading anything like that. What else? Do I try to build enough trust for family activities together or is that unrealistic? That's a good question. Speaker 2 (24:31): Yeah, I would be cautious about that. Let me just briefly say, when you look at divorces, there's, they say about 25% of divorces are quotes, good divorces where people stay friends, they do things together, they have Thanksgiving together, they sometimes even go on vacations together. And it's like one big happy family. That's 25% of divorces. Another 25% of the divorces are high conflict, where even more than two years after they separate, there's still a lot of hostility, maybe a lot of going to court, bad mouthing the child, may feel like they have to take sides to be able to cope. You see resistance to contact, those kinds of things. And there's about 50% of divorces that are pretty much parallel parenting where the parents don't really interact with each other, but they're not in conflict. So if there's a need, then maybe they switch weekends, something came up. Speaker 2 (25:40): But there isn't an ongoing close relationship. And I would say the chances are good that you're in that middle category and that unless things really stand out to you, I wouldn't push for the close one of holidays together and stuff like that. And also certainly wouldn't push to go high conflict. I think finding that balance not too close, not too pushing away may be the healthiest. And one of the problems is if you try to get too close and it doesn't work, then sometimes those become high conflict as people resent stuff. And there was things that they took personally. So generally, I'd say your best bet is to take a middle ground course, be pleasant, get along, like you said, Megan, is just your healthy skepticism, but be helpful that this will be okay. But I wouldn't push to be close. Now if the new wife wants that kind of closeness, I'd be cautious about that. Really let it take a while because sometimes I conflict people what closeness fast and then it blows up and you don't want to risk that. It's better to never get to the point where it blows up. Speaker 1 (27:11): And even if the new wife is not high conflict, we know the dad has some PTSD and has maybe some issues there, and that could possibly create some issues if he thinks these two women are conspiring against him. So there could be lots of different dynamics. So it's just stay that middle of the road, let things, you're just on a journey. You're walking this journey together to raise a healthy child and just be cautious. And over time you will know. You'll know what's what, who's who in the zoo. Speaker 2 (27:47): You know what I just thought of is there's the possibility as you described, that this could be sincere and could get along well. There's also the possibility that she will become his negative advocate. And what are the warning signs of that? The warning signs of that are usually heightened emotions about small issues. How could you let this happen? You gave him ice cream instead of vegetables or whatever, or vegetables instead of ice cream, whatever. It's that things seem out of proportion and she seems real defensive, protective of the ex-husband because that sometimes happens too. You got a negative advocate who's a high conflict person and now you have two of 'em sometimes. So that's the other thing, to be aware of the disproportionate negative emotions to events. Speaker 1 (28:45): Okay, good. Well, I hope this has been helpful. Listeners. There's a lot of divorce happening out there. We've just seen in the news that Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban have filed for divorce and they have, I'm Speaker 2 (28:56): So sad about that. Speaker 1 (28:58): I know they got married the same year that Paul and I were married. And so 19 years, and we see other celebrities, the, I think Scott Wolf case, we've talked about that on some other podcasts, not our own, but others and just all of the elements are there in that one. There's restraining orders, there's psych evals and substance abuse and all kinds of things. So that folks is the definition of high conflict, but it doesn't always look that big. Speaker 2 (29:31): That's not Nicole and Keith, is it? Speaker 1 (29:32): No, no, not at all. No. Speaker 2 (29:34): Hopefully Speaker 1 (29:35): That one will just be very smooth and easy. But now this is the Scott Wolf case. Yeah. Anyway, well thank you for listening. I know you've been a busy bill and you're about to take off on a month long, really, really strenuous traveling and training schedule. I've just kind of wrapped up my six or seven months of strenuous traveling and training, so I wish you the best. Thank you. As you're out there on airplanes, I think you're going to Canada and where else are you going? Speaker 2 (30:06): Well, vacation. I'm going to be going to a new place. Never been to Croatia and Slovenia. Speaker 1 (30:13): Nice Speaker 2 (30:13): For a couple weeks. Then I'm on the plane to Canada and middle California for a collaborative divorce conference. I have to look at my schedule. Speaker 1 (30:27): You've got a lot going. Speaker 2 (30:28): Lemme just mention, in the last 17 days I gave 11 presentations in six cities in two countries, US and Canada. And I don't think ever Speaker 1 (30:40): Including keynotes, Speaker 2 (30:41): Mostly keynotes this time. It's really interesting. Amazing. Yeah, so it was like a hundred people, 400 people, stuff like that. It's very exciting. But the travel part and the back left, back part, I'm going to back off with some of that. So it's a good experience. I love sharing this information and meeting people, but I have to get a little, have to work on balance. So that's coming up after October. Speaker 1 (31:11): Exactly. And you have vacation, a little bit of vacation, so enjoy that. Don't overdo it. Speaker 2 (31:17): Thank you. Speaker 1 (31:25): We'll put the links for everything in the show notes today. If you're looking for any training, we do all kinds of training for any kind of industry or government or anywhere. Anywhere there's high conflict, we like to help. If you need a consultation, let us know. High conflict institute.com or our website for those who are dealing with high conflict in their personal lives is conflict influencer.com. Keep learning and practicing the skills. Be kind to yourself and to others while we try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.