Latest / Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth / How to run a world-class POV with Alexei Rubenstein, VP of Sales, Engineering, and Customer Success at Morphisec

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How to run a world-class POV with Alexei Rubenstein, VP of Sales, Engineering, and Customer Success at Morphisec · Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth

• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: In the sales process, there's always quite a few different leverage points, and it's natural normally for people to focus further up the funnel.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: They're looking at lead to first meeting, first meeting to opportunity, those types of conversion points.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: But just as important is the one from some sort of technical validation of the product through to close.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's a point in the process where resources can be heavy on our side as the vendor.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're actually allocating people to handhold and work with prospects over quite a bit of time.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's also got a lot of scrutiny, right?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: If you've got a small number of POVs kicking off every quarter, then often that gets reported to the board.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Senior management want to know how it's doing and what's converging and what's not.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: And there's definitely good ways and bad ways to run that POV process, which is why I wanted to invite Alexei Rubenstein onto the podcast.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: He is the VP of Sales Engineering and Customer Success at Morphisec, and we're going to be talking today about the POV process.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: He's been running SE organizations in cyber for 12 years, and he's built POV, POC processes at five different companies over that time.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So in this episode, we talk about how CyberDonaut can improve their results by changing how they do their POV process and how they get more deals through to close one.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Andrew Monahan, and this is the Cybersecurity Go to Market podcast where we tackle the question: how can Cyberdonut get to 10 million in ARR by the end of 2025?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so Alexi, welcome to the podcast.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: What we're doing to remind everyone is we're saving Cyber Donut.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Cyberdonut has to get to$10 million of ARR by the end of 2025.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone can follow along in the progress.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: All the numbers are there quarter to quarter on cyberdonut.com.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's c y br donut d-o-n-ut.com.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's no e in cyber in uh in the cyberdonut URL.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you can follow along right there.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the situation, the update is that we're here in the middle of November 2024.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're halfway through Q4.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, on the advice of some people, Bill Wallace has upgraded his CRO.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's bought in, brought in Bob Bruce, who is an experienced CRO.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: And Bob has been spending the last couple of weeks looking at the numbers, figuring out what's going on, assessing his team, all the rest of it.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that stuck him straight between the eyes was that the conversion rate from POV to close is hovering around about 50%.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think last quarter was at 56, before that it was at 49, something like that.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not good, right?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: That looking at that and saying, okay, we've got scarce resources, we're putting them in to try to win these POVs, and yet only half of them are ending up closing.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: So a priority right now for Bob as he's looking at trying to hit these numbers next year, is this needs to be fixed.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we're bringing you in as an advisor to say, all right, you you've run a f run a few POVs in your time.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um what might be some of the things to look at?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: So let me let me ask you a very specific question.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um as he's assessing what actually is going on, where would you encourage him to start looking to try and figure out why is this such a low conversion rate?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think um the reality is that you need to look at the stage before you get to into a POV or a discussion about a POV with the customer.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: The qualification, the uh the essentially the positioning of your product and the qualification of the opportunity should build to a POV.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll put an asterisk here.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not only a POV, maybe there are other ways to get uh beyond that technical validation phase, but it it really lies in uh the qualification of the opportunity.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the right timing?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Is the task customer has uh the resources to invest into a POV right now?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Did we uh align the expectations, the success criteria?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Did we discuss all of those things?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's on the technical side, but also on the commercial side, is there a budget?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is it this year initiative or is it a 2027 initiative, in which case we could do a POV, but why we do POV now if we'll need to do another POV in 2027 as an example, right?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: So spoken like a true SE where you're putting the blame on the AE or the salespeople for not doing proper qualification, right?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I see where you're going with this.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um I you know what?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'll actually say that the qualification or the positioning phase is equally should equ equally be owned by the SE and the AE.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh yes, there is some work on the AE side to do, no doubt, and kind of orchestrating and making sure that the you know the commercial aspects of the the deal are aligned, etc.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the the budget is there, and and if not, understanding how budget can be created and timing, etc.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: But the qualification is equally owned by the SE and by that's that's how I see it.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know I I joke you a little bit.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel like there's the there's the business qualification, but there's also the technical qualification.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, making sure that we're getting into deals that we can actually win because the integrations or the things we have to coexist with or their feature needs to hit the goals are all there.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're not, you know, on the roadmap, for example.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: So there definitely has to be the right sort of scrutiny, um, I guess in partnership, right?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: They need to make sure the two are working well together.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and it's about mapping the right personas on the customer side and kind of sending the different people on your and on our end, um, the SE, to discuss the technical elements and the uh AE, to maybe to chat with uh with the decision maker, with the economic buyer in that process.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think setting up the expectations about what is gonna happen in a POV, what they're gonna going to see, what is the scope of that POV, the methodology that the customer is gonna be using to test that technology, whatever it is, you know, on-premise appliance or a SaaS solution, doesn't matter, what is the testing methodology?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure that whatever they're planning to test is something that we can actually deliver.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it's something we actually do.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or to your point, if it's something on the roadmap, then maybe it's worth for us to actually slow roll it and not push for a POV if we're not ready, right?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh especially in a startup environment where you try to you see the shiny logo and you go blind about everything.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Bank of America wants to talk to us.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but do you deliver what they're actually looking to get?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a value from your product?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: What I've seen, and I've been guilty of this as well in the past, is you know, especially in an early stage, you're not exactly flooded with opportunities usually, right?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um so when you get someone who's willing to go to do some sort of technical validation, this is a good thing, right?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: I've got I've got a deal.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a deal.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's moving down the pipeline.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's usually some pressure saying we're not getting enough POCs or POVs.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: So good news is we've got one, right?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes the rigor can kind of go away a little bit.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering if you've got any tips to help people who feel like that's happening to I don't know, create a safe zone for people to actually say, look, I know we want to get more POVs, but this one's just not ready yet.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think um, A, I agree with you.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: In uh in an environment where you don't have pipeline and uh you kind of jump on any opportunity, uh you cannot say no to anything that comes your way.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that on honestly leaves a lot of uh room for luck.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: And luck is part of the strategy in sales, but it's not something you can rely on uh heavily.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that uh making sure that, again, it goes back to qualification.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: If there is no project or budget or the timing is not right, but you still want to do a POV because you have no other POVs at all, and maybe it's very selfish, maybe you even want to use it as a um kind of vehicle for feedback, and you know that there is no deal at the end of that process, you may still want to do it, but you need to be a transparent internally for the potential outcomes of this.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if you still want to try and get a deal out of it, it probably means that you need to be ready, or your CEO primarily need to be ready to provide significant concessions um to make that happen, even though you may think that your technology is the best thing that happened since SpaceX.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that is the best thing that happened in a while.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm really excited about all that uh space technology.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I like that though.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta be transparent though.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta I I think that um maybe less experienced people might be tempted to kid themselves along a little bit, right?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: And they want to show that they're making progress.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: If you especially as a seller, you want to show that things are going.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there are these are these moments where you you have to be the adult in the room and say, look, you we got we, we, the company, we have to make a choice.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: We probably won't have a deal, but there might be some benefits to going through this as a trial just to see how our POV process works.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I get that, right?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a great point, though.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want it to be on the board deck as a forecasted deal uh just because you went through a POV with them.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Alexi, let's get to know you a little bit better.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about some business things, let's talk about you.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: I have a list of 49 questions here.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: The good news is I won't ask you 49.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I am gonna spin the random wheel of greatness.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, just so you know, this is a high-tech spinning wheel.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's powered by who knows what version of AI, probably a bit of Claude and Mod and Gemini and OpenAI and who knows what in there, just to make sure we get completely random questions.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna spin the wheel and let's see what the first the first number is.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: All right, number 32.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: How did you first make money as a kid?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Great question, Andrew.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I'm a little bit embarrassed, but uh my first kind of uh job I actually allowed to make money is uh in a campaign of a very right-wing-oriented um government official back in Israel in one of his uh election campaigns.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was maybe nine or ten, just hanging out uh collateral and things of that nature, but it was good money, and I don't think I really cared at the time about the politics, so I can't imagine you understood much about the politics when you were nine, ten years old.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Not much for sure.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Not not enough for sure.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Not enough for sure, yeah.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was good money, so no complaints, no complaints.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And there's no clums with the politician pulling in a kid to go and do work for him?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was uh quite some years ago, so less uh strict policies around child abuse and work labor, etc.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't work difficult hours, uh, but yeah, it was fun.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's spin the wheel again and see what we get.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, number two.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is an embarrassing, memorable or funny moment that you've had in your sales work life?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think I actually had uh an idea or example for one that maybe includes all three.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: One of my uh trips when I used to work at um former Soviet Union countries as a sales engineer was to Uzbekistan.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so one of our customers uh made us kind of uh go and um and have a very, very long dinner that included a lot of alcohol, which uh very quickly led to us um going back to our hotel all together and staying in a swimming pool until 2 a.m.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: or 3 a.m.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: or whatever, um, all together with a customer, right?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: First time we meet them.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the the problem there was that we actually had a flight at 5 a.m.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And uh at 3 a.m.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: I wrapped up the swimming pool, um, you know, shenanigans, went to my room and uh fell asleep on the bed.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I I woke up from my boss uh trying to wake me up together with three uh of the room service folks at the hotel because we are about to be late to the fly.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, he was shaking me up.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that was kind of a funny, embarrassing moment.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, never got back to that country again.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm just kidding.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think a lot of people have that moment somewhere in your work life where you get uh you get hit like that, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's just things uh with customers or whatever just get a little bit out of hand, and you're like, oh my god, I still got work to do the next day.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yeah, or catch a flight.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Or catch a flight in this uh time.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let me uh spin again and see what we get.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: 47.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: What is the story behind you getting your first job in cybersecurity?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's kind of um part of the story of many folks uh back in Israel who go through the Israeli Defense Forces.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I served in a technological unit back in uh in the Israeli Defense Forces, which kind of opens the uh the path and the gate to lending a cybersecurity or technological role.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so kind of right of uh military, uh I was 21, 22, um, was able to lend an integration and systems engineer role basically in a vendor that did cybersecurity on IT security systems.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, that that just kind of happened, but it thanks to the military service, uh, I think in a nutshell, that's the that's the short version.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I I've interviewed a lot of people from Israel.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I say, I've never once heard someone say their route was through the the military in Israel.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like that everyone, that's what everyone does there.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: They must have a really good recruiting system to get everyone into the right divisions inside the military and then get them out into vendors.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's certainly impressive how that's come together.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they have a very advanced, very advanced system to vet you out and basically plug you into the best place that the military can benefit out of you.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: But then also at the end of that road, you have uh a line of sight to you know, taking your own benefit out of it.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no kidding, no kidding.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, today on the date this podcast, the announcement was that Wiz has bought DAZ.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: So two Cyberstars companies, uh, two Israeli-based cybersecurity companies.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the the mechanism is working, let's say.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've used the word, I've used the phrase POV, Alexi.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now I've heard different things.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard POVs, POCs, trials, you know, all sorts of different things.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like this is a step that we might want to call technical validation.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think you used the words already, but we seem to default to say, well, let's do the POC.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something you see a lot where people just assume that's what we're gonna all want to do?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And is there any way to kind of avoid it sometimes?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh well, I think the the industry doesn't have a standard terminology.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I certainly agree with you, and I used that um uh early on.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: What we do is a technical validation.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh at least as I look at it, the terminology, whether it's a POV or a trial or a POC, really depends on the product.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: If it's something that is really new, mind-blowing, it might be a concept that you're trying to prove.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're not um actually there is obviously there should be value always, period, but it's a concept that you're trying to prove and something that the customer is like, no, no way.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: So POC is the right um terminology definition to use.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: But in in most companies, uh, startup or not, mature or not, it will be a proof of value.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're trying to show the customer that where you're selling provides value to their program, company, security stack, whatever it is.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: At the same side, at the same time, I will say technical validation, and that's my uh my personal opinion, technical validation does not come down to actually giving the customer access to the product and hands-on.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: There are there are other ways to potentially try and get the technical win, the technical thumbs up, good to go, be it uh very strong references.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, in a in a early stage startup, you probably don't have those.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: But if you have customers that are big fans that see value, putting them on the phone with uh with a prospect probably will drive more value than them poking around a UI for two weeks uh with no reason.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing, potentially as an alternative of a POV, could be more of a stability performance testing.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: If we talk about some sort of a deployment, not a SASP portal, but obviously, but uh some sort of a deployment of an appliance or an agent.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in many cases, that's much shorter, to the point kind of engagement, you know, just a few kind of uh specific, very well-defined uh success criteria use cases around that stability performance testing, instead of uh again providing customer with a month of access to a product without actual uh framework or goals around that access and um you know, and praying that they will actually poke around and and see what they expected to see.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: So what I see, and I maybe this is happening at Cyber Donut, is they kind of come in and they set up and they give a training, you know, to the evaluators about this is how it works, and then they kind of leave them be for a little bit and say, there you go, you know, test it out kind of thing.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: From what you're saying, that's not the way to do it, right?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Have you got a framework you used or something you give them to make sure that they stay on track and do the work?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I do have a framework that I developed over the years and used across uh several companies I worked for uh in the past.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh just in a high level, I will say that in general, uh you need to identify the right timing, not for you, but for the customer when they can allocate the time, you need to set the boundaries and don't be afraid to say it's a two-week POV or a one-week POV.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know your technology, you know how long it takes to test it.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to come with a with a statement.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that if a customer says, Oh no, I need two months, you can you kind of you walk away.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, you can always be flexible, but you you should be able to answer the customer how long your POV should take and guide them through that time period and make sure that once you decide on a kickoff date, that is when they can allocate the two weeks that you suggested.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then it's not about setting up uh a kickoff and a wrap up in two weeks.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's about being constantly in front of them in meetings, in emails, in best practices uh that you can provide, touch points with different people, try to have as many evaluators, even if the customer tells you, no, no, it's just uh, you know, it's just Alexi here.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna evaluate the product.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Try to laterally get as many people involved and see that value of the product if you already got into the place where you have to do a POV.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you'd rather say, let's slow down a little bit the start and make sure everyone's available, commit the time, and then intense period of time, right rather than saying, well, here's the two-month POV, right?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And who knows what they'll do and what they'll remember over those two months.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not about the intensity or it shouldn't feel intense on the customer side.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: It should be um the right timing for them to actually be able to allocate the attention to the product.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, um, and you know, hopefully your product is not something that the customer needs to sit 10 hours a day for seven days just to figure out what's going on, hopefully.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: But in in other cases where it's simple to work and uh understand the value of the product, it should be something that uh the customer can take those two weeks and allocate enough time, half an hour a day or 10 minutes a day, with your guidance, with you being kind of constantly consulting them, advising them, again, using emails, using uh different communications, maybe from within the product.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Pendo, as example, is a great hidden tool to send messages from within the product.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you have users who actually interact with the product uh throughout the POV, that's another way to kind of to utilize a tool you have, customer companies have, to interact with a prospect and send quote unquote hidden messages.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you clicked on this, by the way, do this and that, and it will give you more value.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: But it's staying top of mind, it's not letting the customer get distracted with the million other things they have any point in time, right?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not like, oh, we're only evaluating, uh, you know, I work for Morphisec, only evaluating MorphySec.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, it never happens.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Never.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was working with a client recently, and in one of the SEs I thought had a good plan or a good idea that he or a good way of doing this is that we he would always get asked about, well, I need three weeks or two weeks or a month or whatever it might be, right?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what he would do is he would change the conversation to say, well, how long does it actually take to do this testing or this setup, right?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: So he'd say, look, I'm gonna work with you two hours to do this setup.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh then we'll do 30 minutes on, I don't know, that integration.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then to do with the five the five things you want to test, you each of those will take about 45 minutes or half an hour or an hour.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's much more about can you find five hours over a week or two to get that done?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: And suddenly it's like, okay, I can do that, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, well, let's do that, but let's add in an extra little bit for buffer because you might want to bring someone else in.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll give you this amount of time and that should be enough.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: I really liked how we brought it back to actually what they were going to do, as opposed to just defaulting to, well, I need 30 days.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I I love that approach and we do that as well.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for key elements of the POV of your product, you certainly need to identify them and be very guiding in those areas.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, deployment, if you need to deploy a product or integration, if you if your product includes integration, you you're you're telling your customer very much upfront how much it will take and what needs to happen to make it successful.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get on a call.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it will take 10 minutes to deploy it.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get on a half an hour call to uh deploy.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And here's what you need to prepare to come prepare to that call.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: When can we get that call so that you come prepare?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you come to the call and oh, oh, sorry, I forgot to I don't have an endpoint to deploy an agent.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so back to the drawing board, right?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or same with the integration.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't have the API keys to the other tools, so okay, it doesn't help.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, you need to be very uh consultative in terms of what is happening, how long it takes.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love that approach absolutely, and we do that.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: And uh at the end of the day, you want the customer to feel it's it's easy.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: You want to almost give it to them um uh on a platter.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: What we, for instance, offer to our customers um in Morphisec today, Morphisec does endpoint security.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: So testing Morphisec includes uh sometimes getting like malware samples and pretty sophisticated things that not all customers are comfortable with um with handling.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: We offer to almost guide them and provide them the whole the whole thing.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: We don't give malware actual malware samples, but we basically handhold them throughout the process of getting the malware that they can test on our product to make sure that the product works and see the value.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's it's a very much uh it's a complex task that we try to make as easy as possible on the customer.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, one of the things that hamster everyone is the uh the extending POC or POV, the one more use case before we you know wrap it up.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Any tips about how to handle that so that it doesn't become too much of a burden?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think the reality is it's unavoidable, unavoidable if the customer wants an extension or if they haven't seen something.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the key in extensions is to define again, same as going into POV, define what is causing or what is the reason for that, and what is the framework in terms of time and support that you'll need to provide to make it happen.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: W what I see happening very often is like, oh, I need two more weeks.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: But what is gonna happen in those two weeks?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that you're going to see or want to see in those two weeks that you haven't seen in the first two weeks?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about what is it that you're trying to achieve.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if uh in the first two weeks that uh the POV was supposed to be going, nothing happened because the customer got other priorities, then it's a different story.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it happens.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, if there is an incident the customer needs to handle, they will not evaluate new products, right?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's kind of uh I think it's fair.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if the initial POV time frame shifted, that's one type of extension.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's kind of okay, fine, let's make sure we all understand what we discuss in terms of timeline and and scope.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and let's uh try to guide them again.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: But hopefully, if you do all the things we discuss up until now and guide the customer and make sure that the timing is right and hand-hold them, you won't get to that type of extension.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: The other type is, oh, I just want to poke around for two more weeks.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: In that kind of extension, you certainly need to drill down and understand what is it that the customer is not seeing.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, very often that happens in uh bake-offs in competitive situations, like, okay, I finished the POV with with you.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm starting a POV with a competitor, but I still want to compare you side by side.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and that's often, and that's in that case, he he won't be actually doing anything in your product for the most part, probably, but they want to see results.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe you can provide some um reporting that will help them get the results without having you running the product for two more weeks.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the reality is if that is the case, the number one I'll thing I'll say about extensions is it's um it's a give and get situation.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'll give you more time, but I need to get something for that uh time that I'm giving you with a product.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Be it if it's a competitive uh situation, understand more about the competitive uh kind of uh you know aspects of the deal and who is the competitor and you know how they are performing, etc.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm I'm I'm oversimplifying it.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's an art, right?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a kind of simple thing to do, but that's uh normally what I expect from my team is if there is an extension request, fine.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: But let's put uh you know, let's let's put it on the table that we we need to get something in return to that additional time with the product.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: I like that, right?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's probably lots of different things that you could ask for in return that a reasonable person might think is okay, right?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um one of the things that uh I I see, Alexei, is you know, every product has well, not every product, most products will have some part of it, which is the wow moment, right?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's the this is the bit that we just do so well, right?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Not always is it all that amazing first time you look at it, though.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering uh any tips on setting up the POV or working with the the technical team on the on the prospect side to make sure that bit comes out and is recognized.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's difficult.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's a really it's a great point, Andrew.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, you try to control the controllables in a POV, but if you deploy your product in a real customer environment and not in some sort of a lab setup, where in a lab setup you can basically sort of ensure that the wow moment happens because you can provide the environment for you know for that best feature to to shine, right?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, as an example.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: In a real customer environment, it's it's uh difficult.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think the best you could do is guide the customer through what you know that works best in your for your product.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is that you know customers are customers, and even if they listen, they don't always do what you suggest they do.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh normally they don't.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's it's a really good point, and sometimes uh it is difficult to shine the light on that uh great capability.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, your demo should be doing an amazing job in showing that, but then come real life, like, oh, you know, we don't have that specific thing, so it didn't trigger um, you know, anyway.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean the classic example is detection, right?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like in in a in a demo, you can show it detecting all sorts of stuff.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: You put it you know off a spam port if it's appliance or you put it in their environment.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's like crickets, right?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the good news is you you're you're not infected, there's there's no breach.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: The bad news is we, you know, it's kind of dull when you look at the screen.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so we what we do, and I mentioned that earlier, what we do is we try to guide the customer with almost providing them like an ecosystem that will allow them to test us when they uh especially when they tell us that they're like not quite sure how to test the product.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's not always possible.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying it's always possible, but um um it's it's something we strive to to do and provide our customers with uh with a framework, with very detailed guidance on how to uh basically what to throw at the product so it so it shows the value.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Got it, got it.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's say that the the evaluation part of the POC, we now fixed it, we've got much better criteria, we're getting the right deals in there.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: What is the best way at the end of the POV to make sure the right people are read in on the on the prospect side and get the right information, say, yeah, this went well, here's the proof, and here's what it can do for us.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh it doesn't come down to just one thing.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a leftover from a POV is something that I've been trying to get to an amazing state in every company I work for.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is that it has to be very much tailored to every customer, every situation.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you can have like a template for a POV summary.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um you should have a template for a POV summary, and you should make sure you're providing every single POV, but it doesn't mean that that template will be just plug and play and it will take five minutes in every single POV.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: It does require work, every customer, every environment, every situation is unique in some way, form, or shape.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that and and you must provide some sort of a leftover, an executive summary, a POV summary, something that shows the value, shines the light, put the spotlight on the best features that hopefully you are able to show during the POV.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then at the same time, my opinion uh is that the SE work is not done when the POV is done.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it might be done when uh we are in the last negotiation phases and procurement is already like issuing a PO.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's when you can kind of say, okay, we're done.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: But up until then, the SE should stay close at least to the technical, to the champion, not the economic buyer, and keep providing value, whether it's specific to your product and technology, or uh even sharing, you know, company research.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the companies, even startups, do a lot of internal independent research that is very valuable.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: You need to make sure that you remain top of mind, you, your company, your POV.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because very often, by the way, and back to your initial original question, the success rate or the conversion rate from a POV to close one, um, is if you did a POV and it wasn't the right timing because the budget is only next year's cycle budget, customers just forget.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, it's difficult to keep and stay top of mind for a year, if that's the time frame we're talking about.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you need to try your best to do that.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe not send something every day, because that's a lot of content and collateral to generate.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: But you need to stay top of mind and make sure the customer remembers who you are, what you do, and how you solve their problem, or how you add to their security stack, their uh security program, and the value you bring.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a great point.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because at that point, I mean, you know so much about what they care about, what happened during the POC or V that they liked, that they latched onto, you know how they're justifying things internally, because you you're aligning the reader to that.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: At that point there, you know a lot.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can just say, okay, well, this might be uh a three-month or a six-month uh delay, but I want to every month reach out with something along these key things that they they really value.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's a new feature in that area or a new capability or a new report or new data or a new research or new something, there's your excuse to kind of keep front and center for them and show that yes, you are thinking about them.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And even moreover, if there are, uh, for example, very often during a POV, um, there are some new capabilities the customer or or roadmap capabilities the customer requests that might be become available in the next three months, but they're not available in the in the POV timeframe.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or sometimes you even go and develop specific things based on the feedback from a POV if you know that it's gonna help you close it in the next quarter, right?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you wanna you wanna stay top of mind and keep uh the customer informed that those things happen.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: You maybe even want to involve them.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a customer yet anymore, but uh yet, by the way, just don't forget, it's a prospect, but you may still wanna involve them as a design partner to some degree, although you already know what you're gonna deliver, but at least have them read in on what's being developed if it's something that they deemed a meaningful capability throughout your interactions with them.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Alexei, I want to put you on the spot here.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um tell us about a time where everything just went wrong in the POC.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: You sh you showed up.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it happens more than we might imagine, right?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it happens all the time.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh listen, I guess same as uh my expectations that SCEs will stay involved post-POCs, and uh my expectation is that SEs remain or not remain, they are involved in the pre-POC phase in the qualification.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um things go wrong all the time.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you manage things before and after, then if something goes wrong in the POV, you're in a much better place to manage that situation, to to go get through it.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but uh listen, there are cases when there was like major bugs and issues and things didn't work at all.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um I'm saying that not as an example of my current company, but in any company I work for, it it happens.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's software, right?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: These things happen.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I've got two things have happened to me in the past.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: One on the IDS side, you know, during a PO trial at POC, you know, you prospect finds out that they've got a problem.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: They've literally got things beaconing out from in those days from their data center and is going to countries in the world that it shouldn't be going to.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: And suddenly it's you know, people start coming in the room, kind of thing.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, who's this guy?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this guy's now the VP of this, and who's this guy?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the the chief whatever.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: And suddenly very senior people are looking at the screen going, what the heck's going on?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of interesting.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: The other one that's really interesting was um back in the day uh selling DLP.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, one of the things about DLP is you may well find out that there's sensitive data getting exfiltrated from your company by employees.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, a good DLP process actually involves legal, it involves HR, and involves technical validation as well, because often you'll you'll get results coming out of it saying that employee is doing things that you know they shouldn't be doing.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, it doesn't always uh my what I remember didn't happen all the time.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: There are certain instances where you know there was people in the company who were involved after the POV because they found out that uh these things were happening.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of interesting somehow the you know the reaches of your technology.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I I have examples from similar different realm of cybersecurity, but similar situations uh with threat intelligence where you you know you often find some small thing on the dark web, someone selling access uh to a company, and you you go and you happen to be you know talking to that customer uh or during a POV, some finding comes up and and suddenly, suddenly they go quiet.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, what happened?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: What did I what did I do?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: And apparently you you hit the button that like, or the CEO social security number offered for sale on some marketplace, or some data that was leaked, uh, you know, identified by a product.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: And uh um it's interesting to see some customers react to that as like, oh, I actually don't want to know about it, maybe because if I know about it, now I need to do something about it.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Up until five minutes ago, I didn't know about it.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: So now it's a problem.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm sure it happens more often than not.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Alexia, this has been great.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks you for joining us to advise uh the Cyber Donut exec team on how to do this.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um as a big thank you, you'll get some uh Cyber Donut swag.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have to save, save Cyber Donut t-shirt coming your way as full payment for your your your extensive advice and and knowledge built up over these years.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: If someone wants to get in touch, is LinkedIn the best way to get hold of you?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, LinkedIn is the best way to uh to contact me.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um thank you very much for for having me, Andrew.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed the conversation.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great uh great podcast.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.