Latest / MaxValue Podcast / We are Growing... But something's Not Working ft. Laurence Whittam

Transcript

We are Growing... But something's Not Working ft. Laurence Whittam · MaxValue Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: It sometimes you gotta re-engineer your process, period.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's a balance between like, okay, how do we treat them well?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: We also want to treat everybody right.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's a fine balance to it at the end of the day.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um again, people are gonna have different problems at different times.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: So and I've generally been through a good deal of those problems.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: When you have clear expectations, then you can't actually hold people to those expectations.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of firms just really want the quality of work to be there.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, if I've got all this work, how else can I keep them busy?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be that specific type of work.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Go spend time training.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: There are no bad teams, no bad leaders.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: When you see a vendor, what are some red flags that you would key in on that people should be wary of?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I know the important metrics do them, but I don't believe they should be the most important metrics.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're joined by our guest, Lawrence Whittam, founder of C Suite Impact.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: And he's helped accounting firms find, select, integrate global teams into their businesses.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: And importantly, he doesn't sell offshore staffing, he coaches firms how to do it right.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Ben.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, appreciate you having me on.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: And just why don't you start off?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what's what's your background?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: How did you get to to here?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, so I I've I've really purely worked with CPAs and accounting firms for about 12 years now, right?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Straight out of college.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I got that experience, but I I had a pretty unique opportunity to move to India immediately out of college, um, to a family friends outsourcing office um that was focused on the UK market back then.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and he, well, the idea of it was an internship to really have explore the working life and really understand like different models and different ways of doing things, and where do I want to go with my um bachelor's degree that I got, and and it ended up being really his intention of I need somebody in the US I can trust to really help us expand there.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it was a great opportunity, and and I ended up helping build that organization up to about 600 people in the working for US firms.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've worked with probably 500 plus US firms over the years, um, and and doing everything from accounting, tax, audit, the the full spectrum really of back office services for firms.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and then exited a couple of years ago and ended up starting my consulting journey and with the big, big intention of I there were a lot of outsourcing providers in the space, and there's a lot of great providers in the space between India, the Philippines, South America, South Africa.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's alternate staffing options here in the US.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I felt like when I was working with firms, it wasn't finding a provider to work with really, but it was really having a good understanding of how to do it effectively internally.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I found that there were a lot more things a business or a firm needed to work on internally just to really prepare themselves to outsource for from expectations to strategy.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's very difficult to know how to do it until you've been through it at the end of the day.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So so I really then said, okay, let me help firms independently, let me help them succeed with outsourcing, offshoring in whatever way that they feel is necessary after they understand what all the options are to them.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's sort of what I do now.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and that that uh well that preempts one of the uh questions I was gonna ask you is some of the you know common misconceptions, because basically we're with our assurance team, we run into the exact same thing where it's the preparedness of the firm a lot of times which dictates whether it's going to be a successful partnership or or not.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, that's in the purely outsourcing realm, and you you you work not confined to that, you you're working with um multiple models.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that that's certainly one of them.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: The misconception is that it's all on the other party, the other side, to make sure that it's successful, and really it's at least as much on on the firm themselves, if not way, way, way more.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: At least that's my my thinking.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: It are there are there any other misconceptions that you'd want to uh throw out there that just just ain't true?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean well, I mean, to touch up touch on that one firstly.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's you're exactly right.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's there's there's a lot of different options out there for firms and for businesses in general to outsource.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I see it as like a big spectrum, right?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Of you can go and build your own captive, right, and where it's yours and you've got full control of everything, all the way up to the top end, which a lot more people are more familiar with, which is traditional outsourcing, but but for a firm, an accounting firm specifically, we're generally very good at managing people and treating the projects we work on more around the staff we work with, right, compared to um necessarily like a treating a tax return like just an individual project, right?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: We really are not great at saying this is just a certain project we're working on, and taking a lot of the relationship aspect outside of those jobs, right, away from it and treating it just around KPIs and metrics, which which you really have to do at the top end of that spectrum with outsourcing, right?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so there's definitely that.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would say a misunderstanding that's very common as well is like about data security, right, and um expectation about where you're going to when it comes to, or I'm going to a third world country, I should expect a third world style um quality of work coming back in a lot of cases, which is completely the opposite in a lot of cases, right?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's they need there needs to be an investment of time to make sure that that talent is trained in the same way, because at the end of the day, like the talent is generally not hasn't worked on the same type of projects, hasn't been trained in the same way as your firm would train.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And even if I send somebody domestically from one firm to another, they'll be trained differently, right?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, but also it's they generally, in a lot of cases, the outsourcing firms go above and beyond from a security perspective because that's a huge aspect of their business.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is making sure they are secure because they know they've been up against there are a lot of scams and things that go on in those certain geographies too that they want to differentiate around, right?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: But also we as a firm, as a business, we can now, the way that the technology is, like we can control our environments much better than previously, right?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where like you can get rid of that discomfort in a lot of cases by making sure that you have created a an environment that you are comfortable letting people into, right?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that goes not just for outsourcing, that goes for your own domestic talent, right?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: That goes for your own vendors and ecosystem that they're coming into, right?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to make sure you feel comfortable with that environment, right?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Which we are much more capable with AWS and all these systems that we're using on a cloud base to be able to create those comfort levels now ourselves and controls.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, kind of that that minimum required access levels and all those things, segregating uh you know parts of your system that they can get uh the the global talent can get into and that that sort of thing.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's work and and again that's the thing.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it is a project to do that, right?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've come to firms that they've especially bigger firms, even like they they've got a way they've done things for 15 years.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in order to backtrack, the software doesn't make it easy to backtrack and create now new levels of user restrictions and security and all this on a mass basis, but you've got to start somewhere, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's good to create now new user groups, slowly go through the process, get everything done because then you're set up in the proper way it really should be.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you gotta re-engineer your process, period.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's you know one takeaway there.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: That even hey, even if you're you're expanding and trying to scale even domestically, these are the same topics and and questions that you should be considering anyhow.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, one one thing you said uh just a just a minute ago was about um turning a actually separating like a tax return a bit from the personal aspect, which is especially for well, I'll say especially for some professionals, some CPAs, that can be really hard to do because I mean maybe we've been working with that client for a ton of years.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe uh they named their kid after you, or you know, what whatever it is though.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there there is some relationship and there's some reason why they're you know they're not uh they're they're not using TurboTax or going to the cheapest provider you know they can find.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um and on the one hand, I absolutely agree.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the projects need to be when they're projects need to be measured and and people need to be incentivized the right way and and it needs to be tracked in a very well professionalized manner.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: On the flip side, I think getting that done and being able to track things out uh effectively actually frees up your time to do the relationship part here better, more easier perhaps.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the the net net should, and at least can be that the relationship with the client is actually strengthened because guess what?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: You can do it, you can do the job faster.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: You're not having to oh you know, talking about a tax return, you wouldn't necessarily have to always put them on extension, you know, just automatically they give you stuff on February 1, but now suddenly they're gonna file it, you know, October 15th.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, those sorts of things, just you know, even even with good clients tend to get under the skin a little bit, and and this can help alleviate that quite a bit.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wanted to kind of throw that out there.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: That I mean, you're you obviously have to, in particular when you're dealing with the the larger clients, the larger firms, you know, you're you're definitely looking at it like, hey, we we really got to get a handle on this.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: This can't just be send it over there and hopefully we get it back, you know, on time and right and that kind of thing.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying it's got to be both.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you know that, but just kind of throwing it out there.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want you to sound, you know, want it to sound like you're you know, you're just the the the heartless machine uh turning out tax returns because it's not that.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know it's real people on both ends of the ends of the you know the uh the process there, and of course, you know, the a real person at the uh as the client too.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's um and and I meet with and talk to a lot of partners that still touch a probably too much of the work to a to a large extent, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and but there are also a lot of partners that um really believe they have to touch the work because if they don't, it's not gonna get done to the quality or expectations that they have that work to be, which isn't the case, right?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and not to say that not every partner is special in their own way and knows how to do it in a their very specific way, but if if I give the same if I give the same work to multiple partners in a f in different firms, right, they're they're all gonna give their own outcome, right?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and in a lot of cases, the outcomes are gonna be different, right?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: They may get to the end result, maybe they're similar, but the way they do it, and there may be nuances to the result, right?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's especially when it comes to like tax advice or anything, right?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where it's it it's it's more difficult to control the and set process around advisory type work.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to compliance, you can always take a step back and set a process, right?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: But what I see is a lot of firms that have multiple partners that are involved, it's very difficult to even, even though they're part of the same firm, for them to agree on yes, this is the one process we should follow because they believe their process is better, right?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or they believe the outcome for their client, it is the best when they do it personally.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Where there needs to be um, that's where really we need to look internally in the firm first, right?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: To make sure that have we looked at this from a scalability perspective, or we looked at this from a business approach, right?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: What work can I really pass down?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it generally can't just be passed down, you have to train, right?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where then we have to redefine training materials, redefine controls to make sure that we pick up on those things and other people can pick up on those gaps that otherwise I would have to do as a partner, right?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where it ends up being a larger change management style project in a lot of cases, right?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when you were looking at this, not to say it doesn't mean it needs to be a giant project, right, or anything and take a bunch of time, but you need to have the right expectation that that's what it's going to be like so that you can take baby steps and understand, like, oh yeah, no, they didn't get it because really I didn't train them around this yet, or I didn't put a good control in place because there's these errors keep coming up.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let me now put that in place and test it and and work with my provider or whoever I'm working with to put the right steps in place, right?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: That expectation needs to be there.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and and training starts at the top, right?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the kind of the partner level has to buy in, the owner level has to buy in that hey, we're gonna standardize this way and and not really deviate from that materially um for the most part.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: So what what you do is more more consulting rather than you know uh going to uh another country, let's say, and actually set setting up, although that I know travel can be part of what you do.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so why is consulting versus a firm going it alone a good idea, which I agree with?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, so again, I as you mentioned, like I still end up traveling a lot.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, however, I've I've been there, I've been to the countries, right?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen it, I've spent over a year of my life, especially in India, right?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: I spent a year of my life in India.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: So so I've seen, I know the different geographies and the differences even amongst different states and um and cities within India, right, as to where the talent is.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it it allows you to plan better working with somebody like me, right?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't mean it has to be me, right, um, by any means.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can generally work with a lot of the outsourcing providers as long as you're open to listening to the advice, right, and find somebody that you can work with and really like essentially take a seat at the let them have a seat at the partner table to really have that discussion whenever it's around outsourcing, offshoring, and listen, right, as well as delegating and saying this is what we want to do, because if if you've never done it, something that you want to do may not be the right approach of taking it, right?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's where I like to be a bit of that sounding board, right, in the partner groups to say, okay, I mean, if you want, if this is your end goal with doing this, we you've got to really look at it this way, right?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: You've you there are a couple of tracks you can go down.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots of different paths you can always go down.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's business at the end of the day, like so, but you've got to have clear direction as to where you're going to so that we stay on track, right?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's the important piece.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it generally ends up being a lot of accountability, like to make sure that I can work with a partner group to say, okay, well, three months, six months, a year down the line, are you really on track with where you wanted to go?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, has that changed?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Has that goal changed?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Goals can change, right?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, based on things going on.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: However, if you don't start with an initial sort of plan and focus as to where you're going towards, it's it's so easy to just get lost in the weeds and and really like not have again also not be able to get the right buy-in internally is a big thing that I sort of work against.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's a lot of a lot of firms will delegate somebody to say, yeah, let's do this.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: We know we want to do it.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Who wants to be the guinea pig?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like they know no better.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they've worked for a Deloitte, maybe they worked for a big four that's done some type of international like workforce, right?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Which is one element of it, but there's also like they don't know how to necessarily like work with the rest of the partners and build that buy-in and those types of aspects.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And there's different ways, so we all have to come to a consensus, right, at the end of the day.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's sort of where I help, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: I've because I've been there, I've done it.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm able to go in and speak to different partners with different mindsets, different cultural beliefs and ways of doing things and come to an agreement that makes sense for them.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then put a proper plan in place as a whole, one firm approach.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: I love the one firm approach, going towards more like a corporate setting rather than individual silos in a firm, right?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's very, very difficult to make business decisions if there's everybody gets a say in it.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And whereas they also not everybody has the same opportunity to learn from it or be as educated in a certain area too, um, if they've never done it before, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe maybe I should have you come in and talk to our leadership team internally.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um no, but but it but it is true, in particular with uh with smaller firms, it's there there's so much based on the individual that it is really hard to kind of transition to that more and I hate saying it that this way, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: But uh the more corporate form of management and accountability, and there there is something to be learned from non-professional services firms, even for professional services firms.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: The um well, and you said that you know you've worked with like 500 companies, and within that, there's that's gotta be a ton of success and failure, right?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously the it works, you know, brilliantly, and it also sometimes doesn't work brilliantly.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are the things that tend to break, especially if you've seen you know people doing a DIY for their own firm?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: What does get messed up?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um, well, when you say what gets messed up, like what's the biggest challenge you would say?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, like some of the biggest challenges of getting into it.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: So what leads to failure?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so well, communication, right?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and when I say communication, right, I think everybody then immediately thinks of the language barriers, right?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's not really the language barriers, right?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's more of even just factors of okay, when when do you actually want to communicate with them, right?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And like if they're in a different time zone, right, and they're working, let's say, even half the day with you, right?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I really push everybody to have a very clear expectation documented for communication.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning, if I would like a project done, I've I'm very clear on communicating my deadline of the project, right, which is a reasonable deadline, how long it should take that project to be completed.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say if it's uh a 10-hour project, making sure they understand that and know that upfront so that when they get into it and it's and also saying, if you don't agree with that when you're starting this project, right, come back to me and tell me why, right?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: So is it that now the client has sent us additional information that we wasn't there previously, or now we need to go back and ask for say that it's probably gonna take an extra five hours, whatever the case, or if you're getting up to that benchmark and really it's gonna take you a lot longer, why?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let's come to me, tell me so that I can work with you from a training perspective to figure out okay, are you going about it wrong?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about that before you spend 10 hours on it, 12 hours, 15 hours, and it's still not completed, or it's still not completed as much as I would like it to be, right?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: So communicating those types of aspects from a work management perspective and workflow.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also like how do I want it to be communicated?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Do I like Teams?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do I like phone calls, right?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Do I like emails at the end of the day listing out those projects and feedback?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: People like it in different ways at the end of the day.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's making it a one easy way of doing things where there's no miscommunication that will go on is hugely important, right?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's at the end of the day, we can't expect everybody to be super proactive.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Generally, that is one of those cultural differences.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like the teams are generally less proactive in a lot of cases, especially as juniors to seniors, right?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when we're looking at offshore.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, and and it's just a cultural difference, right?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to really entice that sort of communication piece and really put parameters around it so that they do reach out or they do step out because you you've you've asked them to, right?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: So they'll listen in that sense, right?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so definitely communication is a huge one.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and process is uh again a top number two type thing.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like and not from a I feel like a lot of people overcomplicate how to document a process, right?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And what I mean by that is in today's age, like we have so many tools.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even just even just Looking at MS teams, right?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you could record yourself doing something now and transcribe it and plug it into AI.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: You can get a documented procedure then with video, audio, written.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now, once that's done, like you don't need to be an expert at documenting process and writing it out separately and doing all this, you can at least get the basics and work on it, right?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think a lot of firms are still quite behind on that, right?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and knowing how to implement and use those standard operating procedures.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: But again, it's very important for especially working with global teams to have that documented procedure there.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Once you do, again, similar to that, the goals piece as to you and you set benchmarks, when you have the actual process down, it's much easier to put KPIs around that, reports around that, controls around that.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's just one after the other, which makes it much more much easier to sort of work with those teams.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um, those are sort of two of the core areas that I I sort of make firms work on first.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Just it and it doesn't have to be super complex, it can be it can be pretty simple, but it needs to be there.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: It needs to be there, it needs to be documented.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And when you have clear expectations, then you can actually hold people to those expectations rather than well, I ex I I I had this expectation, but I never really told you about it.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, when you don't give me the thing that it uh in my mind I'm thinking that I want, then it's now your fault.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not really my fault for not communicating that.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and I can tell you like the the amount of times that I've sat with partners after they've tried outsourcing and and and it's failed, right, at some point, right?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they've sort of explained it to me.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but now this was a year ago, right?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Six months ago, a year ago, two years ago, they tried it.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: But then when they sat there explaining it to me and they're like, Yeah, we could have done a better job ourselves.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, um, actually, we we dumped a bunch of work on them, right, because we wanted to make sure they had enough to do, but then we really didn't explain it.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: We just like gave it to them, they told us they could do it, right?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Which again is a failure on both sides, right?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: That is a failure on the other side, too.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to be able to like, and again, and this is where I say this, didn't talk to the other party at that point in time, right?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they could have said, no, we did try talk to them, but they didn't weren't listening, right?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you from experience, like, I've had that that while I was providing outlets.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I I can see both sides, but in a lot of cases that's not the case.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's more so just that okay, you set an expectation, you told us you can do it.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we've sent you some stuff and it hasn't come back, right?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: But really, it should have been no, we should have worked together for a week just to make sure there was like a pilot.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: We've worked on feedback, we've made sure there's a clear mechanism there.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots of functions to it where it can go super smoothly, but a lot of outsourcing firms are always rushing, um, also rushing a little bit to like sell it so that they can get somebody started on it, right?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: And let's work through the problems without explaining that's what we're gonna do, right?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: To some extent.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, and it varies, it varies, I will say drastically between providers, but and also relationships for the same provider.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, but the but those types of things come up, right?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to be aware of them.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and so it's like you're you're in my notes already.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the I want to know, you know, what your template is, like your overall uh approach to working with a firm to get them from, you know, let's do this thing, we don't quite know what it is, but let's do a thing to you know having a successfully running uh global relationship, I'll just say, because it can be multiple things.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I do so where I start is I have a readiness assessment that I develop.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: So and and really that covers multiple aspects, right?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: In my eyes, outsourcing really covers all angles of practice management, right?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning and business management in general, right?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's yes, there's a people aspect of it.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to look at it from that staffing perspective, the HR aspect, right?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's IT that comes into it because we've got to do it the right way.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's laws, there's policies that we've got to follow as CPAs, accountants, right?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: From a tax perspective, right?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there's disclosure requirements, we focus on that.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Process is a huge one, mindset is another one.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the assessment gives me a good picture of out of all these aspects, like where a firm currently sits and how ready they are to really like take the first step, right?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Generally, step one then is after talking to them and educating them on some of where the gaps are, right?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: We go into sort of goals, strategy development, make sure that we're all on the same page from a three-year to a one-year time frame, right?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Where do they actually want to go?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right, what is the reason for why they're doing it?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: The what is the reason is very important, not for the partners necessarily, but for the staff as well, right?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because the team members down to a junior, right?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: They may, if you're bringing in this new outsourcing operation and doing this, like are they gonna uh again, all the common things that you would think with outsourcing, like, is my job at risk, right?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: In our in our profession, 99% of the of the of the time, no, it's not, right?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not, and in fact, we're doing it because we want to keep you, right?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to give you more time, right?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: But that if we look at like the large-scale media, it's like, okay, we hear about layoffs because of outsourcing and offshore, and it's so then it is in the back of people's minds, right?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Same thing, IT and like data security, all these aspects.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to make sure we cover those first.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: So look at the strategy side of it.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Then it's okay, do we need to now educate and build better partner buy-in to make sure everybody's on board?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Do we need to look at putting together more of a pilot study, right?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that we can do a bit more of a control test and really stress test a little bit as to like where are the common problems when we're doing it.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but generally I have to start with sort of process, right?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: After the strategic planning, it's more of a okay, let's dig in, let's refine what pro what we're gonna do, what processes we need to improve on.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: We do minor tweaks to them generally.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not there to recreate their process, I'm there to make sure it's documented and I'm there to make sure that there is a we've really thought about it when we're working with remote team members.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Don't care whether they're domestic or offshore, they're not in the office, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So none of this a lot, a common thing I hear is like we train our team, like they come and sit with us, and like, yeah, we do training on the go.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, all right, we got to get away from training on the go, right?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: We let's look at training for certain processes, and then there are gonna be things in between.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: We should have training on the go to some extent and shadowing of projects and things, but like it can't just be everybody's training on the go and everybody's doing their own training because how are you gonna control that, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now you end up finding individuals are just working with certain partners rather than the whole partner group because there's a relate too much relationship driving compared to necessarily like here's the way we do it, right?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's that's sort of where we go about it.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a very step-by-step method based on where the gaps are.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, I want to take a second here to share something about who we are and why we make this show.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: These episodes are for my business colleagues out there running professional firms and serving clients with the same commitment and integrity that we do.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: But we know that as demand grows, scaling evaluation, accounting, or tax practice without sacrificing quality can be a real challenge.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's where Assurant Advisors provides a solution.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Assurant Advisors partners with accounting, valuation, and tax firms by providing top-tier outsourced support, enabling firms to expand their capacity while maintaining high standards and consistency.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Our team of experienced professionals has a strong track record of delivering reliable results that firms can trust.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you're looking to scale more efficiently and strengthen your firm's capabilities, you can learn more about Assurant Advisors through the link in the show notes.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's interesting, as you s as you're saying, a lot of times, and again on the smaller side in particular, although it it can be anywhere, uh there is kind of that person people driven management style, which, you know, in a certain sense, you know, you see, you know, and I've I've gone through this, and partly it was, and I would say for to a large extent, actually, it was it was quite positive for me to have this kind of apprenticeship type approach to training people, which is wonderful, but it is not in any way scalable, is the problem.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: You could you you can train one or a few good people that way, but you're not going to be able to train a whole team that way.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think that's the again, the same thing, you know, the the cross between being efficient and effective and you know, really keeping the human touch as well, you do still need to train, you know, individually and on the job, but you're not, you know, we're not we're not blacksmithing here.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we we we all went to college, you know, to learn the basic building blocks so that when we're in the workforce, hypothetically, you know, we we can start building right away.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, obviously, we know in in real life you need more training, but that's uh that that that also should be standardized because those are you know the basic tools, the basic building blocks, and you know, you can get the get the more advanced stuff in a you know in a different form.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: No, exactly.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and again, at the end of the day, like you as you're growing, right?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have different challenges, right?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have to, again, it's one thing when you're a sole proprietor and you're just starting out, to okay, now I'm a two million dollar firm with a team of 12 people, right?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, there's you've got people that you've got to look after now, right?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: The goals generally change as well from hey, I want to make sure I can self-sustain as an individual, right, and make my salary, to I've actually got 10, 20, 30, 100 people now under me.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: I need to make sure their careers are in mine, I need to make sure they're living right well, and and sort of goals, goals change from the ownership perspective as well, right?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: So so we have to just develop as as we're going along, right?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where it's not really a it's not a one size fits all approach in any manner, but there is a there's a methodology to what I do where it can fit from a small firm solo up to honestly, like I know I know multiple top 20 firms that have problems with their offshore talent for different completely different reasons, right?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they've got hundreds, if not thousands, of people, right?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's a balance between like, okay, how do we treat them well that are interacting with our US team, but also not b overburden both sides, right?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Of somebody having to stay up late.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: We also want to treat everybody right.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: So so there's a fine balance to it at the end of the day, and um, and again, people are gonna have different problems at different times.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I've generally been through a good deal of those problems.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen the problems, I've seen people do it in different ways, right?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them failing, but the same way it could succeed in a different firm, right?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where you've got to know all the approaches so that we can find the best fit generally for the firm.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and unless you're being very, very transactional, which is is not my style personally.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um not many, not many.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not not super successful many times.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: But the you know, what one of the things that I I think can be a hurdle or or is the the the secret sauce that makes it work, besides having a trust factor, um you kind of build that trust partly by truly treating them as us.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I said them and I didn't even like when I said it, because somebody who's not in, you know, next next door to me is still an still us, it's still we.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and let alone whether if somebody's in a another country, doesn't matter.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're us, they're just far away, far away us.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I I that's a piece that I have seen kind of happen over and over.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's where you know kind of the words matter in the stand from the standpoint that it just reflects how you know the kind of the subconsciously how we're thinking about it.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I've noticed, you know, uh over time as the teams get more and more integrated, the you know, the plural comes in, the us and the we come in a lot more, you know, compared to you know, an us versus them.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not a versus, but it's like just grouping, you know, two groups of people, even if we're working together, that doesn't feel the same as being on one team.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I I will say if you going to a lot of conferences over the years, right?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even just I would say three, four, five years ago, right, in that sense, there were I remember multiple conversations and trends in the conferences stating that we shouldn't be calling like when we started like really hounding on the staffing problem, right, to some extent in the accounting industry, it was let's stop calling them staff, right?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's our team, right?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Don't call them a worker, right?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's they're part of your team, right?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's even domestically, like we were getting away from that, like showing, but it's the same thing.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the firms that are most effectively outsourcing or offshoring in some sense, right?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them treat the team as their own, right?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: They've gone above and beyond to try and bring them into their culture, right?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where there has to be a balance of the vendor or the provider you're working with to make sure you can do that, right?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: But and the model is the correct one.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: However, it's just important, like if that's the route you want to go and you want them to be part of your team, okay, treat them like part of your team.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to invest a lot of time and effort into doing that, right?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you've got to be very um, well, it's got to be very intentional of doing that, right, at the end of the day.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the at the end, uh if anybody took anything away from this, is that we're not we're generally dealing with people, right?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't a product, this isn't a plug-and-play solution in that sense, because we're not the majority of us aren't just outsourcing a tax return purely for the result of that tax return.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: You want to know who you're working with.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you wanted it to be the product, you shouldn't care who you're working with, other than if the result is as good as you get and you trust the provider that you're working with, you shouldn't need to know the individual working on it, right?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it the majority of cases when it comes to especially accounting firms, is that they do want to know who they're working with.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: They want to know an individual, right?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because that's the nature of how we work in a lot of cases, right?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's more relationship-based.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where you really got to identify what's important to you as the firm before you even get into it.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's where like you can really like very quickly like just misalign expectations between the provider and yourselves, and and and then how do how are they meant to know like what you really want out of it as well?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and speaking of you know what what you want out of it, uh, just a couple of you know, real quick questions.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you could boil down some of the key well, key KPIs, um, or or some other metrics that you really like to implement or see implemented in in these firms, what what are some of the ways that you measure productivity or performance or whatever?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it depends a little bit on the size of the firm.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, I would say as you go up the ladder in the size of the firm, I mean, the two key metrics are utilization and realization that most firms care most about, right?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: To be honest, there is profitability as well if I'm talking to the partners to some extent.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, but when it comes to actually like the management of the team, it it then depends on the division and the type of work they're doing.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I I'm just very big on understanding like what you what you personally really want to get out of it.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of a lot of firms just really want the quality of work to be there, right?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they do, yes, they do want the realization, right?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think they care too much a little bit about the utilization of team members, right?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, and what I mean by that is I understand there's a lot of seasonality across many of the divisions, right?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: A lot across so many service lines, there's a very sort of like there are deadlines that are constantly there, which I would love to be able to make an impact on that, but that's a bigger problem, right?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've got huge, huge things to do there.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it's um but you need to know like if I'm paying a certain amount to an employee, right?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: How else can I keep them busy?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be that specific type of work.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Go spend time training, right?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And hey, if I've got all this work, I still see teams with then global teams as well.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: And what they'll do is they will give the first set of work essentially to their internal departments, and they'll keep until the glass is full, essentially, right?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then they'll still overflow that glass, right?
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: And they won't really teach the team how to then segregate certain duties of theirs to make sure that you can fully utilize like an offshore team, but also like make sure your team doesn't have to work two hours 200 hour work weeks, right?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: Or 200 hour um work months, sorry.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um during the busy seasons, right?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I still see and hear from part even partners, but like down to managers, like it varies a little bit, but it's anywhere from like 180 up to 220 sometimes.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, guys, like you've you've got options as well.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: You've also got you're also underutilizing teams, right?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and team members across the firm.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, so if utilization is that important, why do you overwork and overburden the ones that are good rather than training the ones that maybe aren't performing as well, investing that time earlier on so that we can make sure we better utilize them in those busy seasons.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it's things like that that I see that I know the important metrics to them, um, but I I don't believe they should be the most important metrics, in my opinion.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: That that that's a really good uh perspective on that.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: That it yeah, because it it it it's the you know, both sides of the story from kind of again what you said earlier is you know you got to have KPIs, otherwise you you don't you don't have a measurement.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, it's not the whole story because it really depends on how you're you're working with.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I liked what you were saying about you know filling and overfilling the domestic glass of work first, and then anything else, okay, we got we're overflowed, we're gonna ship it off.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: That gives the other the the uh international team whiplash.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: So their workload is way more volatile because of that.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: The fact is that when you don't have as consistent amount of work, you don't get the reps in, and so the training is worse and harder for them.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean I've I've experienced that.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: That it it sucks to be on well, it really it does suck to be on both ends of that.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then I mean there's no time, there's no time for you to give feedback or anything or training, right?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: If the glass is full.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like it ends up being more on your shoulders.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now I have to actually, rather than just doing it myself, where it may take me a few hours, right?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: But then it's like, but now I have to put my trust in somebody else to get it done and manage them.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Management takes time, right?
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: So and tracking and all these things.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: So so that's where it's also like creates additional stress in a lot of cases, and and that's where like people just say, I might as well just do it myself, right?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm rather than guys, this was a minor issue, right, in this tax return, right?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, there were some things here, but and they kept going on, but it's because you never gave any training on it, right?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or you didn't correct it in the beginning when you could have, right?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: You just kept giving more and more stuff.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now that same problem turned into a bigger problem because it it kept going month on month, right?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: So so that's where it's like factors like that need to be considered.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: To a degree, it's a little bit of the there are no bad teams, only bad leaders.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not not to, you know, not to be quite so stark about that, but um, I've seen some better cameras as well, right?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: It is true, but yeah.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um okay.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh on this.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: When you see a a vendor, like an outsourcing vendor or somebody who's trying to sell uh you know build operate transfer model or whatever, what are some red flags that you that you would key in on that people should be wary of?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: So red flag, so well, there's a there's a lot of red flag.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I think well, one important aspect just to I would say it's not a blatant red flag, right?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's something that everybody needs to make sure they do is do their due diligence on the vendor or provider, right?
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning um from what are they what are they actually saying they will do and who they are, right?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: And just doing some light research yourself, right, is important, right?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: More so because I've seen firms get into relationships with vendors and with one expectation of who they are.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say those individuals have worked with large big four entities offshore and they've started up their own outsourcing firm, but they have no, they've got no infrastructure, right?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're really just they've got their own laptops, they haven't used a specific provider for them, they've got no controls.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: But yet the the CPA firm, this specific one, for example, was telling me how big into cybersecurity they were, how very secure they were, how they their their MSP would tell them how good they are from a security perspective.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, but you're working with somebody that you've done no due diligence on.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: And just from a quick LinkedIn search, I can tell you they've got I've talked to them once, they told me they have no offers, right?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you thought they were in an office, right?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: So so and so do your due diligence, right?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's it's a very important fact just to make sure that you feel comfortable at the end of the day with who you're working with.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not here to say you can't work, like you can work with an individual, but just make sure that you understand who you're working with and the risk that comes with that as well, right?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: When they control their own infrastructure.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so but in terms of red flags, I mean, somebody that says I I think one of the common things that I I was I was um I would definitely say it previously as well, and I and I moved away from it after too many sort of like conversations was if it's plug and play, right?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a plug and play.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: We're dealing with people, right?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think that's an important like it's one thing if you plug and play in terms of a relationship, right?
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of like, yes, we bring you into our ecosystem, we get it started, we've got team members on the bench that we can plug in very quickly.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: That element can be plug and play, right?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: But what is not plug and play is onboarding.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to you've got to make sure and that they can explain the onboarding plan, right?
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: How do they start you off?
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: How over the first month or two, what is that gonna look like?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Have them describe that to you because I've seen too many relationships and and um again, decisions get made on need.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like I need somebody now, let me make that decision, let me rush the decision a little bit, or I've got this talent available.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Pick one, right?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because you need it now, rather than let's maybe do it like this, let's test some out, let's figure out the best one.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm big on like even domestically, like do a test, right?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, do there's one element of um interviews, but like people can somewhat talk their way through interviews better than other people, right?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas like you may end up missing out on somebody really good that's very good technically, that maybe, especially in a in somewhere like India or the Philippines, like can't communicate it as well.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: But if you gave them the work or gave them a project, they'd actually do a way better job and pick it up much quicker, right?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you may have to work on the way you communicate with them a bit more than necessarily somebody else.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I've I've seen people go for better language skills than necessarily better technical skills on multiple occasions.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which again, that's where like as a previous provider, it's like, and I'm sure you guys probably do it, is like, no, we have leadership.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we have like a team leader, we have a manager that can be who is good at communicating, but is also good technically and can help you make resources work well for you, right?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because that model works sometimes because the communication skills like aren't as good, right?
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, so that's where it's like I would say some those are sort of come some of the red flags slash elements just to consider while especially during that initial phase.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um you don't need to sign up a huge contract straight away, right?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: It is there is some there is some good things with scale, like in terms of I believe it's easier hiring an individual than necessarily like piecing it out into projects for a firm.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: That can be the effectiveness, right?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: But also like don't rush hiring somebody just because of that.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Do some pilot tests and and get a good understanding first and do your due diligence because then you're more likely to have a better relationship afterwards as well.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that was the end of all the real questions.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: I have just a couple of getting to know you questions uh here at the end.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so tell me tell me something that is not on your LinkedIn profile.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's not on my LinkedIn profile.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I am an avid pickleball player.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: Avid.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so over the past let's say year and a half, um, so I really got into it.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and when I say really got into it, I really got into it.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like most nights I play now anywhere from like two to three hours.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm playing a lot.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh again, very fun sport, fun for a lot of ages, and it's one of those things where people make fun a little bit because it's like, okay, is it just for for older people and stuff like that?
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like, no, I mean, I'm I'm with a good group, like you there are different levels, and there's clearly different levels, and there's I've got to uh I'll say good level where it's pretty complicated.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a do you have a rating?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: I have a rating, yeah.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like four four point two or something, like roughly.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that's pretty good.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: And out of that, it's like you could probably I I could play within a range, so I could play within like a four to a mid-fours is decent.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: I would say good good games, right?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's like five, five and a half plus is like I think you get into like professional play and stuff, like it's not gonna get there.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, my uh no, I I I'm laughing because I am one of those old guys.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't play nearly as much as as you do, but uh yeah, picking up the picking up the paddle.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a very good thing.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a fun game.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a fun game.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if we're ever in this in the same area again, we'll have to uh you'll have to kick my butt because I'm not that good.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, no, I definitely will.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I started organizing at some of the conferences and stuff.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I'll do this in the I'll I'll set it up in the morning or whatever, and a few people go.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: So so I'll definitely let you know.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think the first trip out to uh India that I took, I had learned that the team out there was playing pickleball, and I'm like, okay, well, I gotta I gotta do it.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so no, I mean huge, huge tennis players, like again, big on tennis, big on table tennis.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm not surprised.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: They have started making courts that I knew of, but I didn't I feel like the past year they they weren't as big into it, but I think it's getting bigger over there now as well.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, we we went to some courts out there.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was a good time out till like midnight.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was kind of that was interesting, a whole evening thing.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: So what the the last question that I always ask is we're always constantly trying to improve ourselves.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: I do it through reading.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: What are you reading?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I personally don't don't do it through I won't say reading like that.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I read a lot of news type stuff.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so and then um honestly, I talk to a lot of people, right?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: So um I am I I enjoy learning from a lot of the partners within the space, right?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: Being CPA firms themselves, but but a lot of the times a lot of the ex-partners of a lot of the larger firms that are now thought leaders in the space, I enjoy conversations, learning about what they're doing.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I enjoy sort of all aspects around this industry.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I like to hear about the MA stuff going on.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: I like to hear about sort of the different talent pieces, different management groups.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so so I communicate, and especially at all these conferences, we get to meet a lot of um similar see a lot of similar faces.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: So so I honestly enjoy hearing what they have going on and learning from them.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because they they tend to work with similar, if not the same, type of firms that I do.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um so but they everybody has a different story, so it's sort of cool hearing about that and uh different aspects.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to understand from a general perspective across all these problems in the space.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: Although I just focus on my little area, it's good to sort of like hear what other what other things are sort of there personally.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Lawrence, thank you very much for joining us.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to sh give you a shout out on uh you know where where people can get some of your good knowledge.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we'll put in the show notes a link to your website uh where people can get the offshoring readiness checklist and the AICPA best practice toolkit.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course, you know, I've I I've now been on it.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but you have a podcast, Business Beyond Borders, and it's pretty good.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Go check that out.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, appreciate it.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all that all that stuff is free, right?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's free for people to look at.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, if you want to hear more about outsourcing, feel free to listen to the show.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, I have lots of great people on, like Ben, right?
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: So learning about it, a bit more specific around the outsourcing, right?
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so but yeah, please, please use the free tools, right?
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're there to help.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks a lot, Lawrence.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's a wrap.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: You've been listening to Max Value Podcast.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if this podcast provided any interesting information, hit that subscribe button, smash like, and drop a comment below.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Ben Town with Assurance Advisors, and we'll catch you next time.