Latest / Women in The Coaching Arena / 186 | The Human Side of Facilitation: Holding a Room with Confidence with Tom Cleary

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186 | The Human Side of Facilitation: Holding a Room with Confidence with Tom Cleary · Women in The Coaching Arena

• 0:00
  Jo: Today I am joined by Tom Cleary, who is a group work specialist, wellbeing geek, and host of The Human Side of Facilitation podcast.
• 0:11
  Jo: Tom has spent over 16 years working with groups as a teacher, trainer, and facilitator, and developing others who do this.
• 0:19
  Jo: His work focuses on creating psychologically safe spaces where people can learn, reflect, and have conversations that matter.
• 0:27
  Jo: I invited him onto this podcast because I know many of my audience already facilitate groups, workshops, leadership trainings, team sessions, or they want to.
• 0:39
  Jo: And I know that there is a real skill involved in moving from one-to-one coaching into group spaces without losing the depth, safety, and human connection that make this work so powerful.
• 0:51
  Jo: So today, we're gonna talk about what makes facilitation work, what newer facilitators often miss, and how to hold a room with more confidence, care, and skill.
• 1:01
  Jo: So Tom, I'm so excited for this conversation.
• 1:04
  Jo: I gained loads from our work together, and even from the conversation we just had before I hit record.
• 1:11
  Jo: It's always super helpful.
• 1:13
  Jo: So do tell me what drew you into facilitation, and what do you think people misunderstand about it?
• 1:20
  Tom: Thank you, Jo.
• 1:20
  Tom: It's so nice to be here.
• 1:21
  Tom: I came into it through teaching mostly.
• 1:23
  Tom: And I, I often say it's quite an odd role for me to have because I have, or maybe had, really high social anxiety, so talking to strangers or people was an absolute no, even one-to-one.
• 1:36
  Tom: But actually, what I love is seeing the way that, group dynamics play out and people talking with each other.
• 1:42
  Tom: And we were saying just now, my brain enjoys a problem, a challenge, and there are many of them within this sort of work.
• 1:49
  Tom: So coming in through teaching, and then becoming a trainer.
• 1:52
  Tom: And I did lots of mentoring for teachers, trainers.
• 1:55
  Tom: I was NQT mentor, head of teaching and learning, so had that background in it.
• 2:00
  Tom: And it's just something I think is, a really interesting tool.
• 2:04
  Tom: It's often underused.
• 2:06
  Tom: Or people who would be great at doing it misunderstand bits of it, and therefore we don't get to see the benefits of them coming into a room and working with a group.
• 2:16
  Tom: So I just find the entire thing fascinating, to be honest.
• 2:19
  Jo: Yeah.
• 2:19
  Jo: And I love that because I remember when I trained as a coach, and I said, "I could never do training or group facilitation because I'm shy.
• 2:31
  Jo: I would not be able to do that type of thing."
• 2:34
  Jo: So it's so interesting that you had a kind of similar experience.
• 2:38
  Jo: And actually, I think it can be a benefit because you can really feel maybe empathetic.
• 2:45
  Jo: You can really sense what's going on in the room.
• 2:47
  Jo: You can use those skills that you've developed, to help that group really bond.
• 2:52
  Tom: Some people are surprised by quite how many people who are at the front of a group or on a stage will score really highly for introversion, neurodivergence, shyness, anxiety.
• 3:04
  Tom: There's someone I met, a couple weeks ago, and she was saying when people see her on a stage at a conference and talking and holding a group, very outgoing, extroverted, but the moment there's a break, she'll disappear and
• 3:16
  Tom: recharge.
• 3:17
  Tom: At end of the day, that's her done.
• 3:19
  Tom: The ability to see what that's like from somebody who's in that group and to help them feel comfortable, it brings so many amazing skill sets back in.
• 3:28
  Tom: And this is what I meant by people who maybe they don't see themselves as being somebody who could do that often make the best ones out there, from what I've seen
• 3:37
  Jo: So lots of my audience are great coaches one-on-one, but they maybe feel nervous or less confident in groups.
• 3:45
  Jo: What changes when you move from one-on-one coaching to holding a whole room?
• 3:51
  Tom: It's almost what we just said on steroids a little bit because coaches have refined this amazing skill set of being able to really tune in with people, hold that space, notice little bits of body language or tone of
• 4:04
  Tom: voice.
• 4:05
  Tom: And then when they go into a group, that's on overload because suddenly they go from one person to everyone's giving you this enormous information.
• 4:13
  Tom: And whereas in one-to-one you can go, "This is really useful.
• 4:16
  Tom: I can adapt to that, hold that, pause, whatever I need to do with it," you're thinking, "Well, now I've got 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 people throwing it at me.
• 4:25
  Tom: Where on earth do I go?"
• 4:26
  Tom: So I see a lot of coaches who have this amazing skill set.
• 4:30
  Tom: It- it's almost like the volume's up too loud when they go into a group for the first time.
• 4:36
  Tom: And my work is often about, how do we lower that down so that you can be more selective on what you pay attention to?
• 4:43
  Tom: So somebody is, doing something which is pulling you away, you don't get sidetracked too much with that.
• 4:49
  Tom: But this information overload is quite big.
• 4:51
  Tom: And I think also there's an ability to be able to trust the group a lot to do a lot of things for you and with you.
• 5:00
  Tom: And that can feel quite scary, and often people try and take back a lot of control and hold things quite tightly, and which they wouldn't normally do one-to-one.
• 5:10
  Tom: And it's about thinking about, how do you put all those skills in one-to-one back into the group and allow control back with a larger number of people?
• 5:16
  Jo: Yeah.
• 5:17
  Jo: Totally.
• 5:18
  Jo: And I always used to be a bit confused why I was exhausted on a Tuesday afternoon, 'cause I hold pretty much back-to-back group calls on a Tuesday, and I just didn't realize that you do need recovery time, 'cause
• 5:32
  Jo: that's- a lot of people's energy and emotions and maybe just, even just showing up, to hold that many people and having to be on your A-game and energetic and all of that kind of thing.
• 5:46
  Jo: So I didn't h- really realize, and I probably still don't, 'cause I still just try and finish my group and carry on with my life, the emotional toll and energetic toll that group work can have on you.
• 5:57
  Jo: So tell me more about that.
• 5:58
  Jo: Why does that happen, and how are we meant to recover after these group interactions?
• 6:05
  Tom: It's something which I learned the hard way because I came into, I do a lot of work in the wellbeing and mental health space because I left teaching due to a very severe burnout, and I now have to
• 6:16
  Tom: be very mindful of that and not giving too much of myself.
• 6:21
  Tom: So I do a few different things here.
• 6:24
  Tom: I will make sure that I get up into a session so that I'm not being putting my nervous system too quickly into something uncomfortable.
• 6:31
  Tom: I will move into it bit by bit.
• 6:34
  Tom: I will then make sure that I take mini recoveries during a working day, and that might be So at a conference recently, I warned the, team that I was working with, "I'm here to help you, but for at
• 6:45
  Tom: least 20 minutes during the conference, I will walk out, go to my car, hide away, and speak to nobody, because I need that to be present for you in the afternoon."
• 6:54
  Tom: And then rather than going straight to the next thing, I will process, I will decompress.
• 6:59
  Tom: I sometimes meditate for just 30 seconds just to re-regulate what's going on, and I have set things that I'll do with that.
• 7:06
  Tom: I also have colleagues that I will talk to to help me to process things.
• 7:10
  Tom: Because it's an odd thing, we A lot of coaches, therapists, counselors, there's structured supervision that we have to do this sort of thing.
• 7:19
  Tom: But often with group work, it's putting things in place for ourselves for whatever we need, talking out loud, reflective kind of journaling or writing, or just mental processing space, and being quite rigorous in making sure that's being done
• 7:32
  Tom: as well.
• 7:33
  Jo: So please answer the, age-old question of what's the difference between training, facilitation, and coaching?
• 7:42
  Tom: So this goes into my love and hate of labels because, labels can be super useful and super restrictive.
• 7:49
  Tom: And I was asking somebody recently this question 'cause I'm often on the other side of the podcasting, I'll be asking the questions.
• 7:56
  Tom: But, I said to her, "Of those different labels, which ones are you?
• 8:00
  Tom: Are you an amalgamation of them?"
• 8:01
  Tom: She went, "I don't really know."
• 8:02
  Tom: And that's fine not to know.
• 8:05
  Tom: If we look at traditional, definitions, training is normally helping to impart some information that you know and the group don't.
• 8:13
  Tom: Then you've got coaching normally focused on the personal development of the person or the group.
• 8:19
  Tom: And facilitation is normally either task-focused or outcome-focused, or your main focus there is to enable conversation between the different people in there.
• 8:30
  Tom: In reality, the lines blur massively, and most trainers I know will also facilitate.
• 8:37
  Tom: They will use coaching questions, they will mix between the two.
• 8:40
  Tom: And the best thing is thinking more about, I think, what am I trying to get out of the group at this point here or enable them to do, and what set of tools do I need to use from
• 8:50
  Tom: that, rather than what label do I give?
• 8:52
  Tom: That's what I tend to see instead.
• 8:54
  Jo: Yeah.
• 8:55
  Jo: I love it.
• 8:55
  Jo: And I do think it blends.
• 8:57
  Jo: One minute I'm doing the training, next minute I'm doing the group coaching, next minute I'm doing facilitation.
• 9:02
  Jo: Yeah, I think- for sure.
• 9:04
  Jo: So if you are planning a event of some sort, either online or in person, what's the first thing we should be doing to prepare ourselves or prepare that group?
• 9:16
  Tom: I think the preparing ourselves bit gets missed out quite a lot, I think.
• 9:20
  Tom: And just being able to, where possible, be in that session online or in person a bit before the group arrives so you can settle yourself down a little bit.
• 9:30
  Tom: But also so that as people arrive, the session starts so much earlier than the official start time.
• 9:37
  Tom: And just being able to greet people, notice what the dynamics are in that room as well.
• 9:43
  Tom: Something I do a lot with online sessions is I have a resting something face where if I'm concentrating, I look very unapproachable.
• 9:51
  Tom: And if somebody comes onto the session with camera off, although I mentally know that they're probably there, my face doesn't react like that.
• 9:58
  Tom: So I've trained myself to the moment somebody comes in, to go into my more kind of approachable, smiley, welcoming mode as I would do in real life, in order to set that sort of thing up.
• 10:09
  Tom: And then monitoring, are people talking in person?
• 10:12
  Tom: Are they doing it in chat box if it's online?
• 10:14
  Tom: What's the feeling in that room at the beginning?
• 10:17
  Tom: Because that tells me so much about what's gonna happen when we start, and it's something that we often miss.
• 10:24
  Tom: Often we're so busy prepping the content, we forget to go back into the person mode.
• 10:30
  Jo: I went on a Zoom yesterday with somebody else, and they had some sort of holding thing on their Zoom, which was like a slideshow, and lots of people do amend that, don't they, to say, "Welcome- and things like
• 10:41
  Jo: that.
• 10:42
  Jo: So yeah, I need to write myself a note 'cause I currently have nothing like that.
• 10:47
  Tom: There's always something we're all doing differently all the time,
• 10:48
  Jo: oh, yeah, exactly.
• 10:50
  Jo: So what helps create psychological safety within a group without making the session feel too serious or too slow?
• 10:59
  Tom: It's funny 'cause I associate, I will call it psych safety, 'cause my speech impediment often trips on psychological quite a lot.
• 11:05
  Tom: So I link psych safety with warmth rather than with heaviness, but I also see it go the other direction a lot.
• 11:13
  Tom: And for me, it's the more human we can be, it creates that, that safety.
• 11:19
  Tom: When you have people who are trying to be the expert in all things holding a group, and people can pick up on that.
• 11:26
  Tom: If you don't know something but you claim to know it, that drops it down really quickly.
• 11:30
  Tom: If you state to the room that you're happy to be challenged, but then you get prickly when you get challenged, it tells the group a lot about breaking it down.
• 11:38
  Tom: I was running a session for people recently on, creating psych safety in their teams, and they all focused on the policies and procedures.
• 11:46
  Tom: It's the interaction step by step.
• 11:49
  Tom: Each time somebody questions something, how you interact back with them.
• 11:53
  Tom: And the fact that they can know that you are a human being who is fallible, you will make mistakes with things, as long as they've bought into your authority as to why they did this in the first place,
• 12:03
  Tom: people are very forgiving when it comes to you being not, perfect in that room.
• 12:09
  Tom: And that brings the pressure down off people.
• 12:11
  Tom: If they go, this person can make mistakes and get things wrong, so can I,
• 12:15
  Jo: yeah.
• 12:16
  Jo: I love that, that it's not just some slide you do at the beginning saying, "This is a safe space," but it's actually in every tiny interaction that you have, even before the event.
• 12:26
  Jo: Before my events, for example, I send a video saying Sometimes I try and go to the venue in advance saying, "This is what it's gonna look like.
• 12:35
  Jo: The building's here.
• 12:36
  Jo: You walk up these stairs.
• 12:38
  Jo: This is what will happen when you arrive," and try and help people feel comfortable so they know what's gonna happen in the room-
• 12:47
  Tom: I can't tell you how few people do that, and how much it will mean to people attending your sessions.
• 12:52
  Tom: So somebody who has really high social anxiety, who is neurodivergent, I've done kind of four-hour recce visits before going to a one-hour session.
• 12:59
  Tom: I want to know what the parking is like, what the room's gonna be like.
• 13:02
  Tom: And so I try to do that.
• 13:04
  Tom: But it's not often something we get back.
• 13:07
  Tom: So the idea that you care enough about your kind of, learners and your group to do that probably has much more impact than you might even realize in terms of people feeling welcome, settled, being able to be much
• 13:18
  Tom: more fully present because their brains aren't taken up by logistics and panic and unknown, and they can get much more out of the session.
• 13:24
  Tom: So I love anyone who's doing that sort of thing.
• 13:26
  Jo: Yeah, totally.
• 13:27
  Jo: I think it's because I get nervous about walking into rooms myself, and I always think, "Oh, my gosh, are we gonna have to do the pitch?
• 13:34
  Jo: Are we gonna have to do this?
• 13:36
  Jo: What's gonna be going on in this room?"
• 13:37
  Jo: So I think I, I basically create everything that I wish someone would create for me- Yeah but very rarely anybody does.
• 13:44
  Tom: It is rare.
• 13:45
  Tom: But it's improving, I think, a little bit.
• 13:47
  Jo: So what are the biggest mistakes people make when they are doing leadership training or workshops?
• 13:54
  Tom: There's two main things that I see when people who are maybe new to it or less confident do.
• 14:01
  Tom: One of it is, the use or lack of silence.
• 14:05
  Tom: So there's a rush to fill gaps quite a lot, and that's a whole topic in its own right.
• 14:10
  Tom: But the one I think is probably worth mentioning today is often there's so much, focus on the materials, and they really think about that, almost over-plan materials, content, fit too much into it, but they don't plan the relational
• 14:25
  Tom: stuff.
• 14:25
  Tom: So they don't think, "Well, what will happen?
• 14:28
  Tom: I've got these beautiful slides.
• 14:30
  Tom: What will happen if nobody speaks?
• 14:32
  Tom: What will happen if they really disagree with what's going on?
• 14:35
  Tom: What happens if there's an argument in the room that happens while we're delivering this?
• 14:38
  Tom: What happens if I suddenly forget what I'm doing mid-session, or if something breaks down?"
• 14:43
  Tom: Or, something that's human.
• 14:45
  Tom: And the people who have been doing it for quite a long time, while we do prep the content and we want things to look really nice, we spend quite a lot of time thinking about, again, that, it's the
• 14:55
  Tom: human side, the relational side.
• 14:57
  Tom: What happens if this goes wrong, this doesn't go to plan?
• 15:00
  Tom: I had this recently, in fact this week, when a group, we asked in advance, "How comfortable do you feel being open and honest and discussing quite heavy topics?"
• 15:09
  Tom: And they all scored themselves really highly, but when it came to it, there was absolute silence.
• 15:15
  Tom: So I was able to pivot into, "Well, this might happen.
• 15:17
  Tom: I knew it could happen, so let's move away from what I had planned to do, to something else instead."
• 15:22
  Tom: So focusing on the relational stuff, but also giving silence and space for people to think, to process, and- Allowing yourself to feel uncomfortable as well, because often we jump to the rescue of a group and it means that
• 15:37
  Tom: they lose out on things quite a lot
• 15:40
  Jo: And in my group I've had to train myself to be silent after you ask a question, because everybody obviously looks at each other "Are you gonna speak?
• 15:48
  Jo: Are you gonna speak?"
• 15:49
  Jo: So I now manage to pause for 10 seconds, which feels like eternity in the moment.
• 15:56
  Jo: And you desperately go, "Don't worry then if there's no questions."
• 15:59
  Jo: you're desperate to move on, and it takes so much courage to be able to be silent in that moment.
• 16:07
  Tom: And also, it's really inclusive to use silence, because what tends to happen is people who process out loud will jump very quickly to fill that gap, which means the people who are processing internally don't get a chance to
• 16:19
  Tom: do that, and then the entire room pivots to what the other people who think out loud go into.
• 16:24
  Tom: So we lose out on a lot of things.
• 16:27
  Tom: But sometimes I will say to people, "I actually don't want anyone to speak for the first 30 seconds."
• 16:32
  Tom: And I put a time bond on that so people don't feel like it's gonna stretch out for ever and ever and ever.
• 16:37
  Tom: But I want to give everyone a chance to really think and process, and then we think about how we share that.
• 16:42
  Tom: Do we go straight to the group?
• 16:43
  Tom: Do we go straight into pair talk or small groups?
• 16:46
  Tom: So it's using a range of tools so that everybody's thinking style, learning style, processing style gets a chance.
• 16:53
  Tom: But silence is normally the most useful element within those different parts as well.
• 16:59
  Jo: Yeah.
• 16:59
  Jo: Gosh, I love that idea, and I've never really thought about it like that before, that, lots of people are reflectors and they like to think quietly themselves before sharing, whereas other people definitely think out loud, I think.
• 17:13
  Jo: Which one am I?
• 17:14
  Jo: I have no idea.
• 17:15
  Jo: I think I mix and match.
• 17:16
  Jo: Sometimes I love, I learn a lot by actually speaking, but I would be nervous to do that, straight away within a group environment if I haven't had some time to think beforehand.
• 17:27
  Tom: I tend to ask groups in advance what their preferences are, and I'll do a kind of a vote on whether they prefer to do reflection or prefer to talk out loud, and I can adapt the group based on
• 17:36
  Tom: that.
• 17:37
  Tom: But I also point out while there's a preference, that might shift throughout the day or the session.
• 17:43
  Tom: So even if you said, "I prefer to reflect," if you want to jump into a chatty group, that's fine.
• 17:48
  Tom: I'll often on, online sessions give people an option to do you want to join breakout rooms, or do you want to stay and just reflect first of all?
• 17:56
  Tom: And if partway through you change your mind and you're in a chatty group and it's too much, you wanna jump out of that back into the quiet zone, you can do that.
• 18:03
  Tom: If you're in the quiet zone and you've done your reflecting and you've got five minutes left, jump into a group.
• 18:06
  Tom: So the ability for people to self-regulate throughout the day I think is also really important.
• 18:13
  Jo: So let's talk about the content now, because I know most of us overfill our- Yes workshops.
• 18:19
  Jo: So how much structure does a good workshop need, and how much space do you allow for things to emerge in the moment?
• 18:29
  Tom: So when I was a NQT, my first year teaching, I was told quite clearly, "You'd be an outstanding teacher if you stopped trying to fit so much into a lesson."
• 18:37
  Tom: And he unpicked it bit by bit.
• 18:38
  Tom: He went, "Everything that you're finding hard is because you're overfilling the time."
• 18:43
  Tom: And that was a massive changing point in my w- teaching work and my group work.
• 18:48
  Tom: It went from, okay to outstanding, and then even now I have to...
• 18:53
  Tom: I'll write a session and go, "I'm gonna dump half of that because I've overfilled it."
• 18:57
  Tom: I tend to think of sessions as being, like a room.
• 19:01
  Tom: So whether it's from me or the group or the clients I'm working for, what are the absolute boundaries?
• 19:06
  Tom: What do we have to get out of this session, and what are we not going to go into?
• 19:11
  Tom: And then within that room, it's very flexible.
• 19:14
  Tom: So if I build the room in terms of the hard boundaries and the must-haves, where we move in that room can be very flexible, and I will very happily create a basic structure, but dump it really quickly if
• 19:26
  Tom: I need to, as long as I know what the framework is.
• 19:30
  Tom: So often the structure is something which can get in the way, so I have it available to me, but I'm not scared to dump it.
• 19:37
  Tom: But yeah, that container is there, and allowing enough space for things to breathe, for there to be reflection time and time for people to disagree or go off track, that becomes really hard if we have lots of objectives
• 19:54
  Tom: we have to meet in a certain timeframe.
• 19:56
  Tom: So reality doesn't always allow us to do that, but even then, there are tools we can use to allow, thoughts to be captured and done outside of session too.
• 20:06
  Tom: So I think, yeah, as a framework or a room is how I tend to think about structure of a session.
• 20:12
  Jo: I'm planning my next event, and I always overrun.
• 20:16
  Jo: So tell me more about what a framework looks like.
• 20:21
  Tom: So I would want to know what are the absolute essentials that this group achieves or walks out with or feels when we finish this session or this day?
• 20:32
  Tom: And it might be very few.
• 20:34
  Tom: It might be just two or three absolute things.
• 20:36
  Tom: I think if I go home tonight and they haven't done one of those things, I will be upset or uncomfortable, unhappy with things, and make those really minimal.
• 20:45
  Tom: And what do we need to do in order for us to get there?
• 20:48
  Tom: And I'll plan a basic idea.
• 20:50
  Tom: So I think we're going to have this first, and then we'll do this, and then we'll get here, and we'll end up over here.
• 20:56
  Tom: So I'll know where I'm likely to go with it, and the group may well do that.
• 21:00
  Tom: But I also think, okay, if someone has something they want to bring into the session which is something unplanned for, I'm happy to ditch that as long as I know I'm still gonna end up with those outcomes at
• 21:10
  Tom: the end.
• 21:11
  Tom: I'll then have secondary outcomes, which are, if we all go to plan and it, we have that structure in place, and we have a bit more time, I'd like to also get a few more things done here, but
• 21:22
  Tom: I keep the outcomes as simple and small as possible so that I know that whichever direction the group takes, whether it's a really straightforward route from opening to closing, and we have more time, or they go the most
• 21:34
  Tom: roundabout, convoluted, reflective, discursive one possible, we still have time to end up at that last point.
• 21:42
  Tom: So I think really carefully about, normally for me, it's three main things I want them to think, feel, and do by the end of it, and then the rest of it is, preferable, but I'm happy to throw it
• 21:52
  Tom: out if I need to
• 21:54
  Jo: And so if somebody is destructive or maybe talks too much and takes over the group, what should we do in those circumstances?
• 22:04
  Tom: I think that, separating the actions from the person's really important, because sometimes we villainize the person who's doing that, and then it becomes very personal, and then our reaction becomes one that's not as helpful with it.
• 22:18
  Tom: But questioning what's causing that behavior, and nine times out of 10, when I ask people, at a break or lunchtime, "What is it you need right now that's causing you to, act in a certain way?"
• 22:31
  Tom: It comes down to, "I don't feel I'm being heard or listened to, so I'm having to repeat myself or be louder."
• 22:38
  Tom: And so making sure we acknowledge points people are making, even if we disagree with them, they go against the group, and allowing outlets.
• 22:46
  Tom: So I always use, I call them question car parks.
• 22:48
  Tom: So if someone goes off tangent or there's not time, "You're very welcome to write that down so we capture something that is gonna be really valuable.
• 22:55
  Tom: It can go up on the wall over there.
• 22:56
  Tom: If you get a chance to go to it, I will do."
• 22:59
  Tom: But even the act of writing it and parking it somewhere often allows people to feel heard and valued.
• 23:05
  Tom: And then breaking down things into pair talk, to group work, to smaller groups.
• 23:11
  Tom: Getting people to build or, refute people's ideas.
• 23:14
  Tom: "It's an interesting point, I wanna find out what people think about that.
• 23:17
  Tom: Who thinks that is something we could build on?
• 23:19
  Tom: Who has a counterpoint to that?"
• 23:20
  Tom: So you invite people in.
• 23:22
  Tom: But it's The biggest thing for me was I used to villainize people too much and go, "Why are you doing this?"
• 23:28
  Tom: It's oh, it's interesting.
• 23:30
  Tom: And sometimes the person who's being loudest is a symptom of the group.
• 23:35
  Tom: Sometimes they are trying to rescue you as their kind of group lead.
• 23:38
  Tom: They think, "Oh, it's really quiet, and Tom might be uncomfortable.
• 23:40
  Tom: I'm gonna jump in and help him."
• 23:41
  Tom: I always said to people, "I don't need to be rescued.
• 23:44
  Tom: I'm happy with silence.
• 23:45
  Tom: If no answers the question, absolutely fine, so there's no need to rescue me at any point."
• 23:50
  Tom: But just what's underneath the behavior is normally the biggest thing for me
• 23:55
  Jo: Oh, love it.
• 23:56
  Jo: And while we're on that then, what happens if very few people speak, and we've created this, and we're trying to get engagement, and no one's really engaging?
• 24:05
  Tom: I really like those sessions because, again, it tells me a lot about it because there's an actor I work with who uses the phrase, "Silence is rarely silent."
• 24:14
  Tom: what, what is going on?
• 24:15
  Tom: What are people thinking?
• 24:17
  Tom: What is being avoided?
• 24:19
  Tom: But that, then having tools to do that.
• 24:21
  Tom: So I had this, a few days ago actually, where we had a group who were very quiet, and, I planned to do breakout rooms and thought that's not gonna work 'cause you will all sit there in absolute silence
• 24:32
  Tom: with each other.
• 24:32
  Tom: So I moved into a backup plan, which was a guided reflection on thinking about your day step by step, and some kind of prompting questions to go through, and then allowing an anonymous form for people to use to
• 24:44
  Tom: feed into instead, which was completely anonymous for them, and suddenly that went completely bonkers, and we had all this information coming through.
• 24:52
  Tom: But looking at the silence, what's underneath it, looking at the tools, normally stepping back a little bit to, okay, so what's the discomfort that's going on here?
• 25:02
  Tom: And how do we use that, and how do we make the most of that?
• 25:06
  Tom: And sometimes even doing things like, stepping back a lot from group conversations to pair, just pair work, and mixing up pairs quite a lot, and just lots of written time to do things as well.
• 25:17
  Tom: That tends to move a quiet group to a much more engaged group.
• 25:22
  Jo: Yeah, for sure.
• 25:23
  Jo: I do tons of that in my in-person workshops, where they write a lot to begin with before, so they've had some chance to reflect and think about where they're at.
• 25:35
  Jo: And so what about those occasions, if I'm thinking back to when I was an employee, when you used to basically get forced to go on some sort of training or other, and, as now I'm looking back, the poor
• 25:48
  Jo: trainer or facilitator, I feel bad for them now.
• 25:51
  Jo: But at the time, you don't even really think about it.
• 25:53
  Jo: You just think, "I've gotta be here.
• 25:55
  Jo: Let's get this done."
• 25:57
  Jo: Tell us more about how we can engage people in those moments when they've been forced to go along.
• 26:02
  Tom: So I'm weird.
• 26:03
  Tom: I really like those people and those groups who don't wanna be there.
• 26:06
  Tom: I had a group, a few months ago who I always ask the question, "Who has chosen to be here?"
• 26:12
  Tom: There were no hands up.
• 26:13
  Tom: "Who's been told they have to be here?"
• 26:15
  Tom: Every hand went up in the room.
• 26:16
  Tom: Went, "Oh, great.
• 26:17
  Tom: Love that."
• 26:18
  Tom: Because it tells me that if I can get something out of this for you, that's gonna be even more beneficial.
• 26:24
  Tom: So I will acknowledge it with people, and I will say, "You may not have had much choice in being here, but given that you are, I wonder what we can do so it does feel valuable in some way
• 26:34
  Tom: for you."
• 26:35
  Tom: I have one session I do where I say, "Does anybody feel like this?"
• 26:40
  Tom: And it's a, an image of somebody doing a massive eye roll, and then putting on a smiley face over the top because they don't wanna be there at all.
• 26:47
  Tom: But acknowledging that, and then thinking about, "Okay, because you are here, what would you find valuable?"
• 26:53
  Tom: And I had somebody week before last who told me in the first few minutes, "I don't wanna be here.
• 26:58
  Tom: My boss has told me to be here.
• 27:00
  Tom: I think it's a little bit rubbish, to be honest."
• 27:02
  Tom: Said, "Absolutely fine.
• 27:03
  Tom: I'd love to know what that is, 'cause I can guarantee if you're thinking that, somebody else also is."
• 27:08
  Tom: And he made a really good point about the language and the people he works with, and we talked about that as a group.
• 27:14
  Tom: He's now booked me to come onto his sites later on, because he's "Actually, I thought it was rubbish, but now I realize that maybe it was just the positioning of it."
• 27:23
  Tom: But resistant people are not a bad thing.
• 27:26
  Tom: They're normally the braver ones who will admit to stuff out there.
• 27:30
  Tom: And sometimes people who volunteer for sessions, are not always the ones who have thought as much about it.
• 27:36
  Tom: They might be there because maybe they think less.
• 27:38
  Tom: So it's not always as black or white, I think, as people imagine it to be.
• 27:42
  Tom: I think both groups have got benefits we can tap into.
• 27:46
  Jo: Yeah.
• 27:46
  Jo: I love that you enjoy all of these challenges.
• 27:49
  Tom: It can crush me, but it's not like I don't get affected by it.
• 27:52
  Tom: I can come home and go, "Oh my goodness, what on earth was that?
• 27:54
  Tom: I'm completely exhausted by it."
• 27:56
  Tom: But then kicks in and goes, "Oh, okay."
• 27:58
  Tom: So this happened in a three-day conference recently where it felt really heavy the first day, and I was a little bit squashed by it.
• 28:05
  Tom: And then I went, "So how do I turn that around?
• 28:07
  Tom: How do we make day two go better?"
• 28:10
  Tom: But yeah, I love a challenge weirdly, I think.
• 28:12
  Jo: So your podcast is called The Human Side of Facilitation.
• 28:17
  Jo: Tell us more about what that means for you.
• 28:20
  Tom: A lot of training I see when it comes to facilitation, group coaching, training, focuses on the logistics.
• 28:28
  Tom: It's on the content, it's on the delivery, it's on the timing and the framework.
• 28:34
  Tom: Which are all really important, but sometimes we forget the humans in that room.
• 28:39
  Tom: So every single person in every single group, meeting, coaching session, whatever it might be, is bringing everything else in their life with them.
• 28:48
  Tom: But also, you as a group leader, whether that is a manager, whether that's a leadership coach, whatever it might be, you're also bringing your own stuff into that.
• 28:57
  Tom: So it's thinking about what's behind everything that's going on.
• 29:01
  Tom: And when people are, struggling, what's behind that?
• 29:04
  Tom: If they are quiet, what's behind that?
• 29:06
  Tom: If they are resistant or disruptive, what's behind all of those different things?
• 29:10
  Tom: If I'm feeling really overwhelmed, or it's a topic where I had one recently where I had to do quite a heavy topic, and it had hit me personally the day before.
• 29:20
  Tom: I had to be really mindful of what do I need to put in place in order to be the best person I can be in that group, but also for it not to squash me.
• 29:30
  Tom: So I put in place, I was gonna talk to somebody who was a peer of mine at lunchtime so I could process things a little bit with it.
• 29:37
  Tom: But we so often try to be almost non-human, both as group, people coming into a group, and the person running a group.
• 29:44
  Tom: It doesn't work.
• 29:45
  Tom: The human being side is probably the most important part.
• 29:48
  Tom: So when I talk to people about that, we go down that pathway quite a lot.
• 29:54
  Jo: Yeah, for sure.
• 29:55
  Jo: And if we're therefore thinking about activities, exercises, things we do to try and help the group bond, when is that a good idea, and when is that too forced?
• 30:07
  Tom: When it serves a genuine purpose.
• 30:09
  Tom: And again, what sometimes happens is you can go to sessions where it's like all the top 50 ice breakers, and okay, great to have those ideas, but some people just throw them in because they think they need to
• 30:19
  Tom: have them, or they- they've heard that we need to have variety in a session, and therefore I would put them wherever.
• 30:25
  Tom: Now, variety is really useful, but there has to be a reason, and the reason has to be bought into by the group.
• 30:33
  Tom: So I think if I can't articulate why I'm doing a certain exercise, explain to the group as well, then I'd get rid of it.
• 30:41
  Tom: But also, I- I'm calling it opting out to opt in, where the more freedom we give to people in, "You don't have to do this, but I'd love it if you could," the more likely people are actually to
• 30:51
  Tom: step forward and enjoy it quite a lot.
• 30:53
  Tom: This happens a lot with creative stuff.
• 30:55
  Tom: I was doing one recently which involved quite a lot of drawing and people kind of building models and things, and I saw the group go, "Oh, no, I don't, I couldn't possibly do that."
• 31:03
  Tom: But you don't have to.
• 31:04
  Tom: If you just want to write or to, type something, absolutely fine.
• 31:09
  Tom: Went, "Oh, I don't have to.
• 31:10
  Tom: I'll give it a go then."
• 31:11
  Tom: The pressure came off, and they stepped forward.
• 31:13
  Tom: So I think the opt out to opt in wherever possible, but also is there a genuine purpose that you are aware of and the group can buy into?
• 31:22
  Jo: Yeah.
• 31:23
  Jo: For sure, especially drawing and things, 'cause I'm probably that person with drawing or Lego, and I'm like, "Oh, God, I'm rubbish at this."
• 31:29
  Jo: I- But as soon as someone would put me at ease and say, "Don't worry, you don't have to do it," I'd probably have a go.
• 31:34
  Jo: So I know you have facilitated lots of sessions on mental health and maybe more challenging topics.
• 31:42
  Jo: How best can we facilitate those type of topics without it feeling too heavy?
• 31:48
  Tom: I did an episode on this recently, and, I find it really interesting that there's an assumption we make as a group leader that respect equals heaviness, and often it doesn't at all, and it can squash that humanity out
• 32:01
  Tom: of it.
• 32:01
  Tom: So I was doing a session on bereavement recently, and you would think that had to be really heavy.
• 32:06
  Tom: it doesn't at all.
• 32:07
  Tom: and someone said, "I was grateful it wasn't a heavy session because I wanted to celebrate something of somebody that I'd lost, and I wouldn't have been able to if it weren't for that."
• 32:16
  Tom: So I use, I can't swim, so this is just a metaphor, but, I use a kind of diving idea where it's a heavy topic.
• 32:25
  Tom: We can go down there, explore, and then come back up again and sit on the beach for a little bit, and then think about what that feels like.
• 32:31
  Tom: And how did it feel to go into that topic and then come back out of it again?
• 32:34
  Tom: So the ability to step in and out, to, be okay with having laughter and joy, even heavy sessions, is really important to, to include creativity in those sessions.
• 32:46
  Tom: And I think sometimes we squash out the joy and the human side because we're trying to be respectful, but they don't mean the same thing
• 32:54
  Jo: And then we touched on this earlier, but in case there's anything further on this, what should we do after a session to look after ourselves as the group lead?
• 33:04
  Tom: I think physically moving is important.
• 33:08
  Tom: Where that might be that you leave that space for a bit.
• 33:11
  Tom: That if you're gonna be driving home from a session, maybe do a walk around the car park first of all.
• 33:15
  Tom: But something where you're physically able to move and shake things off, because the way our systems often work is we're in quite a high adrenaline state when we're in these kind of situations, and then we go straight into
• 33:27
  Tom: the next thing, or we drive...
• 33:29
  Tom: one of mine was four hours back home recently, and I was like, "I'm glad I did a lap first of all," because I needed to burn off a little bit beforehand.
• 33:36
  Tom: And I'm a big believer in, there's some really useful kind of one, two, or three-minute long, meditations or reflective exercises you can do and you can listen to.
• 33:46
  Tom: There's one by Mark Williams called the Three Minute Breathing Space, and I got the script of that, made my own recording of it, and would listen to it after a session to completely decompress from that.
• 33:56
  Tom: And even if I've got something coming up really quickly, there's 30-second ones you can do as well.
• 34:01
  Tom: But I have to build them in, practice them, and they have to be non-negotiable in order to do that.
• 34:08
  Jo: Yeah.
• 34:08
  Jo: That's super interesting.
• 34:09
  Jo: I notice after my in-person event especially, that I have the huge crash afterwards, 'cause I think, like you say, it is the adrenaline- you know, the lead up, being there on the day, and then suddenly you're, like, completely
• 34:23
  Jo: exhausted the next day.
• 34:24
  Jo: So it's good to think about ways of decompressing.
• 34:28
  Jo: Anything in particular that's on your mind that you feel like we haven't covered yet?
• 34:33
  Tom: The one thing people could do to change in the next session is, if you can do, arrive earlier and do less with that time.
• 34:41
  Tom: Because we often, we arrive and we use that time to check slides, check notes, rehearse things.
• 34:48
  Tom: Instead, sit where your group's gonna sit.
• 34:50
  Tom: How does it feel to sit in those other seats around the room?
• 34:53
  Tom: What does the room feel like?
• 34:55
  Tom: What are people like who are arriving early?
• 34:57
  Tom: Chatting to those people, and just again, allowing yourself to settle into that space, and seeing it from the other people's point of view, quite literally, rather than being so set on, "I must know my notes, I must know
• 35:09
  Tom: the structure, I must know the slides."
• 35:11
  Tom: So again, being human in that early bit of time rather than trying to know everything in the content.
• 35:17
  Jo: Oh, love it.
• 35:18
  Jo: Thank you so much, Tom.
• 35:20
  Jo: And where can we find you, and how can you help listeners?
• 35:24
  Tom: LinkedIn is the best place to, to find me, which I will, drop into your notes later, Jo, if that's okay.
• 35:29
  Tom: And my website, which again, tom-cleary.co.uk.
• 35:32
  Tom: But I'll send it across to you so you can pop them into the notes if that's okay.
• 35:35
  Tom: But always happy to have a chat with people.
• 35:37
  Tom: I do a lot of, group mentoring with people, one-to-one coaching with people, but also some just reflective practice when people want to just reflect on things, chat things through, decompress, have some supervision sometimes with it too.
• 35:50
  Tom: So I try to adapt what I do to what people need.
• 35:54
  Tom: And what I do is very collaborative.
• 35:56
  Tom: I never want to talk down to people or lecture people.
• 35:58
  Tom: It's what is it you're doing really well, and how can I help you to build on your existing strengths?"
• 36:03
  Tom: So people are well welcome to reach out, pick my brains on things.
• 36:06
  Tom: I'm hopefully quite approachable.
• 36:08
  Tom: But also the podcast that I've got, you can see what my style is through that as well.
• 36:12
  Tom: But thank you, Jo.
• 36:12
  Tom: I really appreciate you bringing me on today.
• 36:15
  Tom: I hope it's something that's useful to your listeners as well.
• 36:17
  Jo: Oh, I'm sure it will be.
• 36:19
  Jo: So Tom Cleary on LinkedIn, The Human Side of Facilitation podcast.
• 36:24
  Jo: And like I say, I worked with Tom one on one and loved it.
• 36:28
  Jo: Now, want to work with him on every group I run.
• 36:31
  Jo: So thank you so much, Tom, and it's been great to hear your experience today.
• 36:36
  Microphone (Samson Q2U Microphone): Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Women in the Coaching Arena.
• 36:41
  Microphone (Samson Q2U Microphone): I have a mess of free resources on my website joannalottcoaching.com.
• 36:48
  Microphone (Samson Q2U Microphone): That's Joanna with an A and Lott with two T's.
• 36:51
  Microphone (Samson Q2U Microphone): joannalottcoaching.com.
• 36:54
  Microphone (Samson Q2U Microphone): And I'll also put links in the show notes.
• 36:58
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• 37:00
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• 37:06
  Microphone (Samson Q2U Microphone): Remember to trust yourself, believe in yourself and be the wise Gardner who keeps on watering the seed.
• 37:13
  Microphone (Samson Q2U Microphone): Get into the arena dare, greatly and try.