Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #62 - Neuromarketing for Law Firms with Olha Bodnar of Ethos Leads

Transcript

#62 - Neuromarketing for Law Firms with Olha Bodnar of Ethos Leads · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

0:00
SPEAKER_00: So every time I have to find something that would work,
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SPEAKER_00: especially in marketing,
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SPEAKER_00: regardless of culture,
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SPEAKER_00: market or languages.
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SPEAKER_00: So that's why I was drawn to psychology and neuromarketing.
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SPEAKER_01: Sure, strategies, sweet success.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone and welcome.
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SPEAKER_01: This is Sharp Strategy Suite Success.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm Tiffany Swedensky and today I'm talking to Ola Barnar of Ethos Leads.
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I actually met Ola via LinkedIn several months ago and I
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started following her on
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SPEAKER_01: TikTok and LinkedIn.
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I see her videos all the time and she talks marketing for law
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firms and she
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SPEAKER_01: actually works out of the Netherlands.
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SPEAKER_01: So she's, I think you're over there right now.
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SPEAKER_01: And so very interesting to get to know her and to learn more about her.
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She has a lot of great stuff that she posts on her TikTok if
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you want to follow her.
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SPEAKER_01: And today we're actually talking about neuromarketing,
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which is an interesting topic that I actually took a short
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course on a few months
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SPEAKER_01: or a few years ago,
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SPEAKER_01: rather.
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And Ola has been making a lot of content and talking a lot
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about this particular topic.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's what we're going to be discussing today.
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SPEAKER_01: And now I'm going to let her introduce herself to all of you.
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SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for inviting me to this podcast.
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SPEAKER_00: I do really enjoy your content as well.
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I think your content on LinkedIn and TikTok and Instagram all
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over is really unique.
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SPEAKER_00: And really, you have your unique voice.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you do use neuromarketing,
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SPEAKER_00: and all those things consciously or subconsciously,
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SPEAKER_00: but it's really good.
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SPEAKER_00: So I really enjoy your content as well.
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Well,
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yes,
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as you mentioned,
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I'm internationalist now,
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but this is my third country.
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SPEAKER_00: So I've started my life and businesses in four countries in total.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: So every time I have to find something that would work,
2:18
SPEAKER_00: especially in marketing,
2:19
SPEAKER_00: regardless of culture,
2:22
SPEAKER_00: market or languages.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: So that's why I was drawn to psychology and neuromarketing.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: I started my first business back in Ukraine.
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SPEAKER_00: I was born there.
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SPEAKER_00: That's why I have an accent.
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SPEAKER_00: And actually, it was a translation company, so it wasn't marketing.
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SPEAKER_00: But I quickly realized that I liked business side,
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SPEAKER_00: like marketing,
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SPEAKER_00: business development,
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SPEAKER_00: all strategy,
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SPEAKER_00: all those things more than actually doing translations.
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So I hired freelancers to do translations and focused on
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developing my business.
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But then life happens and my husband,
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our then three-year-old daughter,
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moved to Canada.
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SPEAKER_00: It was 2014.
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SPEAKER_00: And I had to start over.
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SPEAKER_00: I didn't know anyone.
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SPEAKER_00: I didn't have any networks.
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SPEAKER_00: So I started bulleteering at the Ukrainian-Canadian Legal Aid Clinic.
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SPEAKER_00: And I met immigration lawyer there.
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And I helped him market this legal aid clinic and then started
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marketing his practice.
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SPEAKER_00: So that gave the launch of my marketing business for lawyers.
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SPEAKER_00: And back in Canada, I also worked at a major business law firm.
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SPEAKER_00: So I got also the feeling of the law firm,
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SPEAKER_00: how to work in the law firm,
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SPEAKER_00: but also running my own business.
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SPEAKER_00: Then in 2023, we moved again.
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SPEAKER_00: That was our then one-year-old son.
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SPEAKER_00: So it's been a lot.
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SPEAKER_00: And I started Ethos Leads,
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SPEAKER_00: as mentioned,
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where I focus on helping mainly solo and small law firm owners
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market ethically,
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SPEAKER_00: but also effectively.
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SPEAKER_00: And why focus on ethics?
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SPEAKER_00: Because I saw lots of shady tactics,
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lots of companies doing marketing for lawyers that don't
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specialize in legal
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SPEAKER_00: marketing.
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They might not know all the rules and regulations and might not
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intentionally,
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SPEAKER_00: but violate those rules.
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SPEAKER_00: But in the end, lawyers are responsible for that.
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SPEAKER_00: So that was my focus.
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SPEAKER_00: And now this year we moved to the Netherlands and
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I'm working on European presence,
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obviously,
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but while still working with U.S.
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SPEAKER_00: and Canadian clients.
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SPEAKER_01: So,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
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SPEAKER_01: and I had a few questions and I was going to hold this to the end,
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SPEAKER_01: but I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: it's kind of a softie,
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SPEAKER_01: but of all the places that you've lived,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: where have you liked it the most?
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SPEAKER_01: Like, what's been your favorite?
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SPEAKER_00: It's hard to say yet.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, the general answer would be every place has benefits.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that every time we move,
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SPEAKER_00: we think this is the better place for us,
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SPEAKER_00: but only time will tell.
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SPEAKER_00: So moving from Ukraine to Canada,
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SPEAKER_00: I thought Canada was great and US better,
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SPEAKER_00: but then here in Europe also benefits.
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SPEAKER_00: But in terms of legal marketing, what I've noticed is
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SPEAKER_00: US is, as you know, is very competitive.
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SPEAKER_00: It's very aggressive, very business-like, ROI-focused.
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SPEAKER_00: Europe, on the other hand, is very reserved, very reputation-first.
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SPEAKER_00: Aggressive marketing is frowned upon.
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SPEAKER_00: And Canada is like in the middle.
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SPEAKER_00: It's balanced.
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SPEAKER_00: It's
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SPEAKER_00: not that aggressive as in the States.
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One of the examples that I found myself interesting,
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but also weird,
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was the use of billboards.
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SPEAKER_00: We used to live in Philadelphia suburbs,
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SPEAKER_00: and every time I took this highway to Philadelphia,
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SPEAKER_00: it was just billboards,
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SPEAKER_00: primarily personal injury lawyers as you work with them,
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SPEAKER_00: mainly so you might...
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But at first,
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when I saw all those billboards,
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I found them,
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like,
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this can't be true.
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SPEAKER_00: Because they were so,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say gimmicky,
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SPEAKER_00: but very aggressive,
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SPEAKER_00: like lawyer covered with money falling on his head.
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SPEAKER_00: Or just very bold saying, we are the best, we are the largest.
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SPEAKER_00: It was...
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SPEAKER_00: But for me, it was like, even coming from Canada, it was too much.
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SPEAKER_00: But you know, every market has their own differences.
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SPEAKER_00: In Europe, it wouldn't work, of course.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, billboards, that's a doozy.
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SPEAKER_01: And you see all kinds of weird things with the billboards.
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SPEAKER_01: And there are certain areas of the US where they're just way more common.
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SPEAKER_01: And I can't speak too much to the West Coast,
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SPEAKER_01: but definitely in like North and South Carolina in particular,
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I've driven down there recently and there's just billboard
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after billboard and
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SPEAKER_01: sometimes just a series of them.
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And people like law firms would either take the route of being
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like over the top
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and funny or trying to be like very buttoned up and
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professional or whatever.
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SPEAKER_01: catastrophic,
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SPEAKER_01: I guess,
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SPEAKER_01: is the word,
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SPEAKER_01: where they're showing,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: graphic,
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SPEAKER_01: almost graphic imagery.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: nothing,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: no bodies or anything,
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SPEAKER_01: but,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: car accidents and very serious messages.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of overwhelming.
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SPEAKER_01: And I mean, well...
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SPEAKER_01: I am not sure billboards work,
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but it's this idea that repeating a brand multiple times just
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builds that brand
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SPEAKER_01: awareness,
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SPEAKER_01: which ultimately leads to more callers,
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SPEAKER_01: more referrals and things of that nature.
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SPEAKER_01: So
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SPEAKER_01: How like and I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: bringing this to neural marketing,
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like how do you think like the average person is processing a
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billboard as they're
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SPEAKER_01: driving past it,
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SPEAKER_01: like 60 miles an hour?
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SPEAKER_01: Does the graphic imagery and like the over the top billboards,
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SPEAKER_01: does that like help get noticed,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: because it's drawing our attention?
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SPEAKER_01: Or do people even notice those things at all?
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, what do you think?
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Visual is one of the stimuli that we use to catch the attention
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of our primal brain.
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And I heard recently that our primal brain processes 11 million
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bits of information
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SPEAKER_00: per second and only 40 bits gets into our conscious mind.
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SPEAKER_00: So...
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I don't know if your billboard will get into those 40 bits
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because our brain,
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SPEAKER_00: especially primal brain,
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SPEAKER_00: which makes decisions and is focused on our survival,
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SPEAKER_00: is very self-centered.
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SPEAKER_00: It's how we develop.
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SPEAKER_00: So if it's not about my safety,
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SPEAKER_00: about me as a person driving,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I care that you're the largest law firm in the country.
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SPEAKER_00: So what does it mean to me?
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SPEAKER_00: But,
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SPEAKER_00: well,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm in legal marketing,
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SPEAKER_00: those builders caught my attention,
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SPEAKER_00: but of course they catch someone's attention,
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SPEAKER_00: especially if someone's driving to work,
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SPEAKER_00: they will burn into their brain.
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because of the repetition but what your marketing teaches us is
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not to focus on
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ourselves because no one cares about you so it's a good thing
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but it's a bad thing
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of course if you are worried about posting yourself or your
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videos no one pays
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SPEAKER_00: attention like they may
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Notice you for a second,
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but then they back to thinking about themselves.
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SPEAKER_00: But then it's,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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a bad thing because nobody is thinking about you when you try
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to get people's
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SPEAKER_00: attention.
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And why I'm interested in neuromarketing is traditional
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marketing teaches us to
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SPEAKER_00: educate,
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SPEAKER_00: to provide value.
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SPEAKER_00: And I used to do that as well.
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SPEAKER_00: I used to post educational content.
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SPEAKER_00: Here's how to optimize your Google business profile.
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SPEAKER_00: Here's how to record videos.
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SPEAKER_00: Here are some tricks, tips.
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SPEAKER_00: I was trying to provide value, but...
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SPEAKER_00: It gave me some views, some impressions, but did it drive revenue?
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SPEAKER_00: Every business owner's goal is to drive revenue, not send impressions.
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So I was trying to find something that would focus on people
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and understand what
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SPEAKER_00: makes people buy.
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SPEAKER_00: So coming back to neuromarketing,
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SPEAKER_00: I learned that our brain consists of three layers.
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Primal brain,
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our,
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as mentioned,
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which was developed hundreds of millions of years ago.
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SPEAKER_00: It doesn't even, way before language and written word.
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SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't register that.
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SPEAKER_00: Then there is our middle part,
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SPEAKER_00: like limbic system,
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SPEAKER_00: which is about emotions and our gut feeling,
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SPEAKER_00: which is actually where all the decisions are made.
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SPEAKER_00: And our newest part, neocortex, which is our logical part.
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SPEAKER_00: And people think,
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SPEAKER_00: like a lot of people,
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SPEAKER_00: lawyers,
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SPEAKER_00: for instance,
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SPEAKER_00: think that people choose lawyers logically,
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SPEAKER_00: which makes sense.
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SPEAKER_00: You are the biggest law firm.
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SPEAKER_00: You have this many lawyers.
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SPEAKER_00: You have this many years of experience.
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SPEAKER_00: You have that many people.
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SPEAKER_00: These are all logical things.
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But what neuroscience,
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neuromarketing shows us,
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this is not the way people make decisions.
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SPEAKER_00: to hire you or not to hire you.
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SPEAKER_00: So first, our task is to catch a primal's brain attention.
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Because of course,
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there's that many,
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there's millions of bits of information.
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SPEAKER_00: So our task is to be,
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it's like when you're standing in the rain and you can compare
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it to social media,
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SPEAKER_00: all those posts,
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SPEAKER_00: millions of posts per day and only 40 posts.
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gets into our conscious mind so how to be that pose that will
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catch our brain's
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attention and then activates our emotional side and then
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justifies our buying
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decision later so there are different stimuli that we can talk
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about and yeah if
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SPEAKER_00: it's interesting at all then
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SPEAKER_01: It's such a fun word.
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SPEAKER_01: So,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
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SPEAKER_01: and I,
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SPEAKER_01: you said a ton of great stuff there and trying to go back mentally to the
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SPEAKER_01: beginning,
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SPEAKER_01: because you mentioned like,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: our brain only processes like so much information at a time.
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SPEAKER_01: And so like when we're talking about marketing,
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People get really,
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really good at filtering,
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you know,
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what they see,
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like on a web page.
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SPEAKER_01: Like if I open up a web page and I'm looking at a recipe,
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SPEAKER_01: I see like six ads or there are six ads.
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But after I cook the recipe and spend 20 minutes kind of
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looking down at the
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SPEAKER_01: counter,
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SPEAKER_01: reading it,
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SPEAKER_01: I couldn't tell you what ads were on that page because I,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm good at filtering out those ads.
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SPEAKER_01: And if I really need to, I'll just outright block them.
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SPEAKER_01: And things will catch our attention and like with LinkedIn,
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SPEAKER_01: we're hooking people into your post is really important.
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SPEAKER_01: Or like with billboards being like visually eye-catching.
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SPEAKER_01: So you might have the possibility of getting their glance,
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SPEAKER_01: hopefully the passenger and not the driver.
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And,
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but at that point,
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like once you hook them,
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you do have to tie it into an emotional
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SPEAKER_01: need.
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And you're very right that attorneys like to think that people
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pick attorneys very logically.
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And I know some law firms have basically built their marketing
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around this idea
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SPEAKER_01: that people research and when they're finished with their research,
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SPEAKER_01: they'll find us because we have the most materials,
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SPEAKER_01: we have the most information,
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SPEAKER_01: we have ebooks or whatever.
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SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately, like people don't really research that much.
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SPEAKER_01: I was writing for my Substack just yesterday.
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SPEAKER_01: And this wasn't this is on fine law.
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SPEAKER_01: I was doing some research and looking at the fine law website.
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SPEAKER_01: And they reported that most people only ever contact one attorney.
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Like if they have a legal issue,
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there's only one law firm they're going to probably contact.
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And that's either going to be like the best reviewed law firm
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in their local area
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SPEAKER_01: on Google,
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SPEAKER_01: or it's going to be somebody who has referred to them by somebody else.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: And, um,
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SPEAKER_01: So it's very like a shallow funnel.
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SPEAKER_01: We're trying to catch people's attention,
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SPEAKER_01: latch into like an emotional need,
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SPEAKER_01: like you said,
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SPEAKER_01: in the limbic system.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to keep up with that part of it a little bit.
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SPEAKER_01: And then like at that point, like we have to persuade them.
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SPEAKER_01: and persuade them to take the next step and make the phone call.
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SPEAKER_01: Now,
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SPEAKER_01: as far as billboards go,
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that's a lot to have the user go through as they're driving by
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60 miles an hour.
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And so like a lot of law firms who have this huge brand
16:09
presence will use them.
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SPEAKER_01: But law firms that are like, I need leads now.
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SPEAKER_01: I need to grow.
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SPEAKER_01: They're not going to use billboards.
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They're going to use something more direct where we have more
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time to go through,
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SPEAKER_01: like hook them,
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SPEAKER_01: connect with them emotionally and persuade them.
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And oh,
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there's something else you said earlier and I wanted to make
16:31
note of it.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned stimuli.
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SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things that sticks with me when I talk,
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SPEAKER_01: when I think about neuromarketing or just like kind of mentally hacking,
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SPEAKER_01: I guess,
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SPEAKER_01: people is colors and design.
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SPEAKER_01: Oddly enough,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not like a super great graphic designer,
16:52
SPEAKER_01: but like I've been marketing long enough that I kind of have to,
16:56
SPEAKER_01: you review like websites,
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SPEAKER_01: you review creatives,
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SPEAKER_01: you got to know a thing or two.
17:01
And so I guess like once upon a time,
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like there was a study done on birds.
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SPEAKER_01: where it was little baby birds, right?
17:09
And they,
17:10
what they did is they replaced the mother with a series of more
17:14
simplistic items.
17:17
And so they replaced the mother with like a doll that looked
17:20
like the mother bird.
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SPEAKER_01: And then they replaced it with a more simplistic version of the doll.
17:26
And then eventually like it got down to a point with when they
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were feeding the
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SPEAKER_01: baby birds,
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SPEAKER_01: all that they appeared with was a stick.
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SPEAKER_01: with a certain set of colors at the tip.
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SPEAKER_01: And basically like what they found is that very simplistic stimuli,
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SPEAKER_01: the stick with the colors,
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SPEAKER_01: whenever they introduced it,
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SPEAKER_01: the birds reacted as though it was their mother.
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And it was because like the researchers had tapped into like a
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super stimuli is
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SPEAKER_01: what they called it.
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SPEAKER_01: Like this is a very simplistic version of something that birds react,
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SPEAKER_01: baby birds react to very strongly,
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SPEAKER_01: which is their mother.
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SPEAKER_01: And it ended up being a stick with like red and yellow at the tip.
18:07
And I'll have to look up that study again because I think about
18:10
it all the time.
18:11
But you know,
18:12
when it comes to like design like attorney websites or attorney
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ads,
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like
18:18
Do you think there's like a certain like set of design rules we
18:23
should follow?
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SPEAKER_01: Or do you think there are things that work better than others?
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SPEAKER_01: Colors?
18:27
What are the super stimuli like we can use for like our
18:31
marketing basically?
18:32
SPEAKER_00: One of the stimuli is visual.
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SPEAKER_00: So the best way to activate the stimuli is live presentation.
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SPEAKER_00: But you cannot always do that.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: So the second best thing is video.
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SPEAKER_00: And the third best is photo.
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SPEAKER_00: So in your ads, the best thing is just focus on lawyer talking.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: Because our mind will first recognize it and will be triggered by person,
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SPEAKER_00: moving,
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SPEAKER_00: talking,
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SPEAKER_00: and real person.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: And...
19:10
SPEAKER_00: Sorry,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: but when I mean a real person,
19:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't,
19:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:13
SPEAKER_00: with the AI and AI twins,
19:17
SPEAKER_00: don't do that.
19:19
I don't know why,
19:19
but we can always tell this is the AI video or AI picture.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: And like a year ago,
19:25
SPEAKER_00: it's funny,
19:26
I tried to optimize my video production and I wanted to create
19:31
my video twin just
19:32
SPEAKER_00: to test it.
19:34
and as you can see and hear i speak with an accent and my ai
19:38
twin spoke with a
19:39
british accent which was so funny so yeah that's funny long way
19:47
to go so in your
19:49
ads the best way is to do video or just photo i don't know like
19:54
colors have impact
19:56
SPEAKER_00: but
19:59
SPEAKER_00: Will particular color catch attention or not?
20:03
SPEAKER_00: This is,
20:04
SPEAKER_00: it may help justify decision,
20:08
SPEAKER_00: but person,
20:10
SPEAKER_00: person's face,
20:11
SPEAKER_00: person's expression,
20:12
SPEAKER_00: emotions will definitely catch a primal's brain attention.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: And then at the emotional level,
20:18
SPEAKER_00: we will see,
20:19
SPEAKER_00: do I,
20:20
SPEAKER_00: it's like what,
20:21
SPEAKER_00: it's that gut feeling that we get.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: And I was, yeah, I trust this person.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: This is safe.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: I want to hear more.
20:29
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and on your website, don't use stock images.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: Don't use this gavel scales or just random people, not your team members.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Cause yeah, we can all tell that it's a stock image.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: So just use real people.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: Cause people connect with people, even if you sell B2B.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: People run those businesses and they make decisions.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: And like I said at the beginning that people usually call just one.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: Law firm,
21:03
I think when we connected to the fact that we get some lawyer
21:09
or law firm,
21:09
SPEAKER_00: some lawyer catches our attention.
21:13
Then we get this emotional connection,
21:16
gut feeling that to trust or not to trust.
21:19
SPEAKER_00: And then, only then, we rationalize.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, on this website, this lawyer has 40 years of experience.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh, they helped this many people.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, this case study is similar to my case.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: Then, okay, I'll call them.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: So the decision was made at this emotional part of our brain.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: Later comes the rationalization.
21:42
Like,
21:43
sometimes even I'm not connected to law firm,
21:46
like when we buy,
21:48
I know I like shoes.
21:49
So when we buy shoes,
21:51
we don't buy them because they're practical,
21:53
they are warm.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: It's because they make us feel good.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: So this is emotional connection.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: And then we just define, oh, yes, they were on sale.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: That's because that's why I bought them.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: Oh, they will be warm or whatever, whatever reason you trigger.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
22:10
SPEAKER_01: and that's,
22:10
that's like my favorite fact about decision making because
22:14
everyone feels like they
22:15
SPEAKER_01: are really rational decision makers.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: But like most of the time,
22:20
like what we do is we do make basically like an instant
22:25
decision and we might not
22:27
SPEAKER_01: be fully aware of like what that decision is.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: Like maybe,
22:32
SPEAKER_01: maybe people are really self-aware and know,
22:34
SPEAKER_01: but like you're faced with a situation,
22:36
SPEAKER_01: you kind of know which way you're leaning already.
22:39
and then like if you're looking for a law firm there might be
22:44
now let's just say
22:45
there are 10 law firms in my city right i live in kind of a
22:48
small area and i'm not
22:51
SPEAKER_01: gonna look at all 10.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: nobody's gonna look at all 10.
22:54
i mean we already have data that shows many people just call
22:57
one but if you're
22:59
SPEAKER_01: evaluating options a lot of people just start with three
23:03
SPEAKER_01: And then after they look at the three,
23:06
SPEAKER_01: there are probably like three things,
23:08
SPEAKER_01: like there are three businesses they're evaluating,
23:10
SPEAKER_01: and then there are three like metrics.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: So if you're buying a car, maybe it's like, it has a good warranty.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: It has a good performance record and it has self-driving features.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: Maybe those are the three main things you're evaluating for each car.
23:25
So you look at three different cars,
23:28
look at them to see if they meet these three criteria.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: And then pretty much at that point, you've made your decision.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: Most people don't look deeper or further than that.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
23:39
SPEAKER_01: maybe that sounds like a lot,
23:40
but that's actually like not a lot of information when you're
23:43
thinking about buying
23:44
SPEAKER_01: like a $30,000,
23:45
SPEAKER_01: $60,000 car or...
23:49
SPEAKER_01: deciding to hire a law firm and people only contact one,
23:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:54
SPEAKER_01: that's another shortcut is just asking somebody else.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: If you don't know how to find a lawyer,
24:00
SPEAKER_01: don't know what kind of lawyer you need,
24:03
SPEAKER_01: you're probably going to ask for a referral.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: And that's like just mental kind of, so knocked over my stuff.
24:10
That's just this shortcut that a lot of people take instead of
24:13
like doing their own research.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
24:16
SPEAKER_01: that definitely is interesting in how we just ultimately like reach these
24:22
SPEAKER_01: decisions,
24:23
SPEAKER_01: reach these choices.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: So as far as like unethical marketing,
24:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious,
24:29
SPEAKER_01: like what you see out there that law firms are doing,
24:34
SPEAKER_01: but definitely show or not necessarily law firms.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: It's mostly the agencies, right?
24:38
SPEAKER_01: So what are they doing?
24:42
SPEAKER_00: One of the things is manufactured scarcity or manufactured fear.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: Actually,
24:51
one of the triggers that neuromarketing shows us to use is to
24:56
use fear to speak to
24:58
SPEAKER_00: people's fears and pains.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: But to do this,
25:03
SPEAKER_00: not manipulate people into hiring you because you exploited their fears,
25:10
SPEAKER_00: but to do this ethically.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: And how can you do this?
25:13
So one of the ways to ethically speak to someone's fears and
25:19
pains is to talk about
25:21
SPEAKER_00: their day-to-day frustrations and pains,
25:25
SPEAKER_00: what they are going through.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: And so when you...
25:30
SPEAKER_00: start your post or when you talk to someone,
25:35
SPEAKER_00: you need to make sure that you understand what they are going through,
25:40
SPEAKER_00: not just you're going through the worst.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: This is what you need to do.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: Or instead, what you can say is,
25:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I understand that.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: You might be sleeping on your friend's couch.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're not certain about your financial future.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: You're worried that you will not see your children that often.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: I understand that.
26:03
So we are calling out all those frustrations,
26:07
all those pains that a person is going through.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: And this is the way how to capture someone's attention.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: visually grab the attention,
26:20
SPEAKER_00: but then say things that would make other person think,
26:25
SPEAKER_00: oh,
26:25
SPEAKER_00: yes,
26:26
SPEAKER_00: this person really understands me.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: I just don't want a divorce contract or whatever, just the end goal.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: I want someone who understands what I'm going through.
26:39
And this is when our primal brain gets activated because this
26:45
is focused on me.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: The primal brain is self-centered.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: So if it's about me, I need to listen to that.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: And so you need to really understand what your ideal clients go through.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: So when you create your ideal persona,
27:05
SPEAKER_00: don't just list your demographics,
27:06
SPEAKER_00: but really,
27:08
really try to understand the pains and frustrations and fears
27:12
your customers are
27:14
SPEAKER_00: having.
27:15
And you can,
27:16
of course,
27:16
you can think,
27:17
you can even ask them,
27:18
but try to go deeper.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Don't accept just the surface level explanation why someone hired you.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: Because people will...
27:30
SPEAKER_00: give you logical reason,
27:33
but they may not understand themselves why they chose someone
27:38
as opposed to someone
27:39
SPEAKER_00: else.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: Because they make decisions in emotional center,
27:42
SPEAKER_00: but then give reasons and logical explanation to themselves.
27:48
And so you,
27:50
bottom line,
27:51
you need to understand what someone is going through.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: And just...
27:56
Postings like client alerts or your blog posts saying,
28:02
here's client alert,
28:04
go read it.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: This will not trigger anything.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: Or another example,
28:10
SPEAKER_00: which is close to me about immigration,
28:12
SPEAKER_00: recently trying to post this 100,000 fee for H-1B visas.
28:18
And all my feed,
28:19
at least on LinkedIn,
28:20
was just lawyers and law firms just saying this news.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: He increased and, like, you're not a media company.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Everyone knows that.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: Your clients already know that.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: Tell that instead what...
28:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm not speaking about everyone,
28:39
SPEAKER_00: but at least for the...
28:39
SPEAKER_00: I haven't seen anyone...
28:42
SPEAKER_00: saying, yes, you have a business.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: Say you wanted to bring over three foreign workers on H-1B visa.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: Now you have to pay this 300,000 fee.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: What impact will it have on your business?
29:00
SPEAKER_00: So as a lawyer,
29:02
SPEAKER_00: I might,
29:03
I have a solution for you to make sure you understand what they
29:07
are going through.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: So as a business owner, you may, your business may not support this key.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: So you have, you may, you have to create some other solution.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: And as a lawyer, I can understand that and I can help with that.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: And in your content, you,
29:27
SPEAKER_00: It's not manipulative way, but start with pain.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: But at the end of your content, always give the relief.
29:35
So this emotional stimuli,
29:38
because this will be like memorable stimuli,
29:41
because we,
29:42
our brain...
29:44
SPEAKER_00: remembers beginning and ending.
29:45
So in the middle,
29:46
you can say,
29:47
like,
29:48
of course,
29:48
don't say anything,
29:49
but it's not that important.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: So at the beginning,
29:52
SPEAKER_00: acknowledge someone's pain,
29:53
SPEAKER_00: what they're going through in details,
29:56
SPEAKER_00: what their day looks like.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: And then at the end, just give the relief.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: Just, you know, you can give them the solution.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: And,
30:07
SPEAKER_01: and I,
30:08
people remember negative information more deeply in their brain
30:13
than positive
30:14
SPEAKER_01: information.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: And so,
30:16
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
30:17
SPEAKER_01: you still want to lead with pain,
30:19
SPEAKER_01: which sounds terrible,
30:21
SPEAKER_01: but you know,
30:22
SPEAKER_01: you're right.
30:22
There's a correct way to speak to like fear and pain and
30:26
frustration and marketing copy.
30:28
So it's the difference between saying just like,
30:32
let's imagine like a headline on an article.
30:35
Let's say the headline is,
30:37
if you've been arrested for a DUI,
30:39
you will lose your job.
30:41
And that's if somebody's in that situation,
30:43
that'll probably scare the hell out of them,
30:45
right?
30:46
And then maybe there are attorneys like the article goes on to
30:49
tell them like how
30:49
SPEAKER_01: they can avoid that.
30:51
But that's like a very like impactful and unethical headline
30:56
because you're creating this like
30:58
Very strong emotion in somebody who's just researching their
31:02
legal issue and they
31:03
might be suddenly very scared and contact you instantly or
31:08
leave your site.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
31:09
And maybe that sounds like a desirable income,
31:11
but you don't give that relief as you describe.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: You just don't get that.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: You're hoping the fear will just drive them and push them to you.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: But if you're wanting to speak to that,
31:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:23
SPEAKER_01: that fear,
31:24
SPEAKER_01: which is very valid,
31:25
SPEAKER_01: if you've been arrested for a DUI,
31:28
SPEAKER_01: there's a right way to do it.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: And let's say,
31:31
SPEAKER_01: instead of saying you're going to lose your job,
31:34
SPEAKER_01: you use the headline instead that says something like,
31:37
SPEAKER_01: here's how to protect your job if you've been arrested for a DUI.
31:41
Because it conveys the need to know information that's
31:44
potentially something you
31:46
SPEAKER_01: might face and why you might need an attorney losing your job.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: Without
31:51
SPEAKER_01: sounding like doom and gloom,
31:53
SPEAKER_01: catastrophic,
31:54
SPEAKER_01: you're gonna give them the information they need at the end,
31:57
SPEAKER_01: that relief that you said,
31:59
SPEAKER_01: right?
32:00
SPEAKER_01: And so,
32:00
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
32:01
we definitely need to be mindful of what our clients are going
32:06
through and what
32:07
SPEAKER_01: their experiences are,
32:09
SPEAKER_01: because we have to tap into that in our marketing copy,
32:13
SPEAKER_01: particularly when we're trying to convert somebody into a client.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: We don't have to write like that in our email newsletter,
32:20
SPEAKER_01: which is essentially like a fluff piece for a law firm almost.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: but to potential clients who are facing that legal issue immediately.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, definitely.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: Well,
32:29
SPEAKER_01: although we're actually coming up on kind of the end,
32:32
SPEAKER_01: which went by awful fast,
32:34
SPEAKER_01: like I have to admit.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: And there's more to talk about.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: So we may actually do like a second episode on this down the road,
32:42
SPEAKER_01: but unfortunately we're going to have to wrap it up today.
32:45
But what do you want to leave listeners with about this topic
32:48
with neuro marketing?
32:49
SPEAKER_01: Like what can they do with it today?
32:52
SPEAKER_01: to help their marketing and help their business?
32:56
So if I thank you for the invitation and there is definitely a
33:01
lot to talk about
33:02
SPEAKER_00: and I'd be happy to record the second one.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: And one thing that I would...
33:08
SPEAKER_00: Try to finish is do not focus on yourself.
33:12
Focus on your clients who are undergoing not the best period of
33:19
their lives.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: They are under stress and they just need to be understood.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: And especially followers, don't overcomplicate your message.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: No one doubts that you are smart.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Don't use legalese.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: Just our brain prefers simple language.
33:39
SPEAKER_00: So if you can relate to someone in simple language,
33:44
they would be so grateful to you and they will emotionally make
33:48
this decision.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: And then when they call to you, that will be like formality.
33:53
And they will logically then justify this decision to go with
33:57
your law firm.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: I,
34:01
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
34:01
SPEAKER_01: there's really something to,
34:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to go too,
34:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to go on too long,
34:05
but there's definitely something to like when somebody has an
34:09
issue coming to them
34:12
SPEAKER_01: with good news,
34:15
SPEAKER_01: like,
34:16
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
34:16
SPEAKER_01: the relief coming to them with good news,
34:19
SPEAKER_01: giving them something of value without asking anything in return.
34:24
That's why eBooks are so common,
34:26
but there are a million ways to give a potential client value.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: And that whole cycle that you talked about,
34:34
SPEAKER_01: which I'm going to be thinking about,
34:36
SPEAKER_01: is just the way to kind of build trust and to get them drawn towards you,
34:41
as opposed to just like being super aggressive with like
34:44
billboards and stuff.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: Look at me, look at me, look at me.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for being on the show.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Where do you want people to go to look you up and learn more about you?
34:54
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: So I publish resources for lawyers on my website, ethosleads.com.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: And also I'm quite active on LinkedIn.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: I'll be happy to connect.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: Guys, check her out and follow her.
35:10
She makes,
35:11
I love her videos on LinkedIn,
35:13
a lot of quick,
35:14
like good marketing tutorials.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: And you guys should definitely check her out.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: For now, we'll see everyone next time.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for listening and talk to you all soon.