Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Divorce Radio and Celebrity Divorce with Guest Ilyssa Panitz

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Divorce Radio and Celebrity Divorce with Guest Ilyssa Panitz · It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People

• Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddie. Hi everybody. And we're the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California, where we focus on training, consulting, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In today's episode, we are joined by very special guest Alyssa Pans, also known as the Divorce Journalist. She's a journalist, a radio host, and she's explored every aspect of divorce in, in that line of work. And she hosts a national radio show called The Divorce Hour with Alyssa Pans, of which Bill has been a regular guest. So we're really happy to have you on her show today, Alyssa Speaker 2 (01:02): And I am honored to be here. Speaker 1 (01:04): So first, a couple of notes. As you listeners know, if you have a question about a high conflict situation, please send it to us at podcast high conflict institute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. We are so very grateful for all of you listeners, Speaker 1 (01:26): So welcome Alyssa. I I want to share, uh, a little bit about you before we dive into the que questions. Um, Alyssa is the only divorce journalist columnist committed to helping others navigate the major, major life transition of divorce by covering every angle and exploring ever every topic when it comes to divorce. She writes a daily column to entitled Five Things You Need To Know How to Survive and Thrive During and After A Divorce For Authority Magazine on Medium and also serves as the content and editorial producer for the National Association of Divorce Professionals, as well as a co-host of all things divorce on Clubhouse. She is the creator and host of a national radio show called The Divorce Hour with Alyssa Pans that airs weekly on C R N Digital Talk Radio. Her prior experience is pretty impressive, both as a journalist with major media outlets and she's best known for, and this is very fascinating for producing hundreds of celebrity at-home photo shoots and interviews with celebrities having experienced divorce firsthand. She's dedicated a great deal of time and effort to helping others navigate divorce. She is the divorce journalist . So welcome Melissa, have we missed anything? Thank you Speaker 2 (02:45): So much for having me. Speaker 1 (02:47): Oh, it's our pleasure. We're really grateful for your time. So, um, as our listeners know, we like to, um, you know, get to know our guests a little bit more and so we ask a few little questions to begin with. Um, first, where did you grow up? Speaker 2 (03:03): I grew up in New City, New York, which is in Rockland County, New York, Speaker 1 (03:08): Rockland Counties. Is that close to the city? Speaker 2 (03:10): I would say it's probably a good 30 to 40 minutes from New York City. Speaker 1 (03:15): Okay. Well we call that pretty close where I come from in Nebraska. , that's right. Next door. . Speaker 3 (03:20): That's without traffic. That's without traffic, right? I Speaker 1 (03:24): Suppose. Yes. Um, alright, so do you have a favorite book or movie? Speaker 2 (03:29): My favorite movie at all time is The Wizard of Oz. Speaker 3 (03:32): Oh, Speaker 1 (03:34): Interesting. Is there a why behind that? Speaker 2 (03:37): Oh my God, so many reasons. I've just always loved it. I've always been fascinated by it and I think for me, I love to thrive on a challenge and I love Dorothy and how she was thriving on her challenge to get back to Kansas and all the different obstacles she had to overcome to get there and also the friendships she built along the way, the lessons she learned along the way. I think there's so much positive messaging in that, in that movie. Speaker 3 (04:06): I love it. It's such a positive movie and that's nowadays something we need so much. So it helps me understand why you're such a positive person, . Speaker 1 (04:16): Exactly. Um, last question for the personal part. If you could sit down with one person in the world for a one-on-one chat, who would it be? Speaker 2 (04:25): Don Henley. Speaker 3 (04:27): Ah, music, Speaker 2 (04:30): Music. Co-founder of the Eagles and probably the only person, uh, I will be completely by. I was once near him. I had to walk past the stage when I was going to one of his concerts out in Coney Island, New York. He was promoting his album Cass County. And the way that security had us walk to our seats, we walked right in front of the stage. I mean, I was standing right under him and I froze, like froze. I could not move. My mouth dropped to the ground and this is coming from a girl who did this for 20 years. I was awestruck. Awestruck. Speaker 1 (05:07): Well, the, the Eagles are iconic. I mean, I remember my first Eagles concert and oh my gosh, it was amazing. So yeah, that's, and when I asked you this question before we started recording, you knew right off the bat there was no hesitation. So, um, yeah, I like that pre, you know, some people say, Hmm, Gandhi or, but I love Don Henley. That's a great answer. . Speaker 2 (05:28): Oh, I'm a I'm a diehard Eagles fan. It was how I grew up listening to their music and I never miss a concert. I go to every single concert. I always say if I had the money I would follow them all over the world. Ah, so I met Joe Walsh once in Los Angeles and I think I made a fool of myself during the process. Speaker 3 (05:48): Well, he, he's done a bit of that himself, so, uh, I'm sure it was okay. Let me just put another plug for Don Henley here. I just want love the fact that he can multitask cuz he can be a drummer and he can be a singer and a very good one. So, and a guitarist Eagles, one of my favorite bands, guitarists just everything, the, the multiple abilities of all the Eagles. I just loved their music ever since the seventies. I didn't know if you were born back then, but I was around Speaker 2 (06:17): and that's when, that's when they came onto the music chart. Speaker 1 (06:20): Yeah. And I have to say, you know, I've known Bill since 2005 and until this very moment Bill, I didn't know you had the rock enroll Cool Factor Speaker 2 (06:31): Speaker 1 (06:31): . So Speaker 3 (06:33): Dust speaker. I'm Speaker 1 (06:34): Impressed. Okay, well thank you for sharing that with us, Alyssa. Let's get into some, uh, questions about your, your work world. Um, if currently you focus on divorce in your radio show and other reporting, uh, what types of reporting did you do before this? Speaker 2 (06:53): When I started in the industry, I was doing what's called general assignment, which means I could come in one day and do medical the next day I could do sports the next day I could do politics. Probably about five years into my career, somebody thought I am better suited for entertainment. I thought they were crazy, but it's actually where I spent, I would say probably a good 20 years. And, um, they were right moving me into that space. Entertainment makes people happy, uh, it makes, puts a smile on their faces. The more I became involved with the celebrities, the more they got comfortable with me, started opening up with me and kind of, uh, it shifted where we started doing a lot of in-depth interviews and it talked about their personal challenges and how they overcame them. Uh, that also led into doing photo shoots where I was invited into their homes. Speaker 2 (07:43): So you're probably thinking why divorce? Um, it was, uh, a combination of a couple things. The first was I filed for divorce in 2018, had no idea what I was doing and made a lot of mistakes. They cost me a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of stress. And uh, I had noticed that the industry where I had worked for so many years had all sorts of correspondence, transportation correspondent, education correspondent. But when I was going through this in a very high conflict divorce, as Bill knows, I screamed to my television, where's the divorce journalist? I need, I need help. And there wasn't any. So when Covid happened and people were reinventing themselves when people lost their jobs and divorce reinvention is a big theme when you're going through that transition. There were too many signs. And so I just decided to start something that the industry overlooked. Speaker 3 (08:40): So I got to know you. I got started maybe two years ago with the, uh, national Association Divorce Professionals. You wanted to interview me about that. And then you started the divorce hour with Alyssa Pan. So I'm to say I've, I've been part of that since it started and I've been so honored and pleased to do that. So can you tell us how it's grown and and how people find it today? Speaker 2 (09:08): When I started this, um, it was a small little column that I was doing right from my dining room table. Uh, the National Association of Divorce Professionals or the n a DP for short found me. And about a month or two later I got a phone call and the network, CRN Digital Talk Radio Network, somebody there was reading the columns, brought it to the attention of the network and then they found me. And when the show went on the air back on July 31st, 2021, we were slotted. And Bill, you probably remember this to be on Saturdays, right? Well, shortly thereafter, I would say maybe, I don't know, less than a year later, we found out that due to the demand of the show, we were now going to be repeating on Sundays. And CRN has many relationships with a lot of different platforms where people get their news and information. Speaker 2 (10:01): So we live in a world of technology. Well, we got another call that placed that, um, platforms such as Spotify, iTunes, Google Home, Google Podcast, Alexa, and now Amazon Music and Amazon Audible, all wanted to carry it. And the reason is, and you know, bill, you know this cuz you've been with us since the start. We are here to help. I am not your therapist. I am not your lawyer, I'm your journalist. I get to ask a lot of questions to amazing, amazing professionals we hon have on every week. And that information is helping people to be in their ways, guide them through these difficult transitions, and hopefully the hashtags we use all the time on the show build back better and survive and thrive. So you can get to that next chapter that so many professionals talk about all the time. These experts just, we talk about everything, things that happen before your divorce, things that may happen during the divorce, things that may happen after the divorce is final. Speaker 2 (11:04): There's that saying, there's an app for that. I always say I've got an expert for that. And where we get the topics, I'm a scattering, I'm, I'm Bill, you know this from, from working with me. I'm like constantly thinking I take, I take a topic such as divorce, I smash it on the floor, there's a million pieces. And to me those are all different angles of what we are going to talk about. That goes back to the one topic divorce. So we may pull things from, uh, the news such as celebrity, uh, which is how so many people know me. We may pull things from let's say bill's many books or things you do right at the High Conflict Institute. You guys do a lot of video series we've talked about as well. People may talk about cases that they're working on. I've talked about things that I have gone through, uh, personally. And what we find is so many people are dealing with these very things and they find when these experts come on and talk about these matters, uh, it really helps them, it helps them find solutions and that's what we wanna do. We wanna help people find solutions so they can put this behind them and, and just move forward. Speaker 3 (12:12): It's fantastic actually. I'm, I'm, I'm in awe of your ability to consume all of this information and narrow focus it. I've been on the show once a month, but I don't usually actually listen to it myself. And last weekend I listen to it and I thought, she's a really good interviewer and she's so focused because everything that you asked and everything people said was really useful. Practical information, you know, bankruptcy, support, all of those kinds of things. So it's, I just think we're really glad to be part of part of this project. Now you mentioned you, you just have of, you're like a sponge of information. How do you get your, where do you look? Do you have some standard sources or you have a topic and each topic is different Speaker 2 (13:02): In terms of how we find ideas, uh, for topics, for columns in the show? Speaker 3 (13:06): Not not just ideas. Do you like get daily, uh, news updates from around the world and you pick out the good stuff? Or how do you find stuff? I, I'm just always amazed. Speaker 2 (13:19): I come, I search, I like crawl through everything. You know, when I started in journalism, there was no internet, so we had to do stuff the old fashioned way to find stories and I just kind of go back to my roots. And so I search everything. I look for stuff. Um, I watch a lot of tv. I listen to a lot of different things. Sometimes I'll just be out with my girlfriend and somebody will talk to me about a situation they're going through and next thing you know, I'll start writing down little, little notes like, oh, that's really interesting. And they'll let, like am I, am I a column or am or am I episode ? And I just, I use the information so they love it when, when I do that, sometimes I think of things that I've gone through. Uh, we're doing something this week in terms of celebrity divorces. Speaker 2 (14:09): There's two that are trending right now. But what's so interesting is that so many people deal with a lot of the things that the celebrities. Sometimes I'll just put in search words. Sometimes I'll just think of things. Um, sometimes I'll just, I'll just be like, Hmm, what's something we haven't talked about, like something I'm working on now about, um, immigration and what happens when two people are getting divorced and maybe one is not from the country. What happens there? Uh, what happens if there's children that were born here but one parent is not what happens to their status? So I dunno thing, it's just the way that I think Speaker 3 (14:45): That's fantastic. I Speaker 2 (14:47): Suspect you have watched 90 Day Fiance. I actually have, I don't have the time on tv. Speaker 1 (14:54): Interesting. Because that, there's, there's a lot of that with the, um, the immigration aspect. Uh, you know, it it cause it's about marrying people from outside of the US and what happens when you have children with that person in South Africa and now you're getting divorced and you have children that are, you know, not going to be able to see their other parent very easily. It's a, brings a whole new level, a whole new aspect to, uh, trying to co-parent. Yes, you've, even with Zoom and all of the, you know, FaceTime and all of the wonderful things we have today, it's still not the same. And it's pretty tough to get those children and parents together. Plus there's different laws and customs and traditions. So it's, it can be challenging. Now, as you know, uh, quite well that here at H d I we focus on high conflict disputes and you know, and we started in high conflict divorce. Speaker 1 (15:44): Do you think that the pandemic that we've just kind of come out of, um, increased the amount of high conflict divorces? Uh, what have you heard about that from the experts that you speak to or listen to? Because I know in our work for two, two and a half years now, the calls that we get, the emails we receive, uh, the training requests when we speak with them, uh, it's like things are just so much more high conflict now than they were in the past. And the divorce attorneys are saying the same. Like, like what? I used to have this many high conflict divorces, now I have so many more. So is that what you're experiencing? Speaker 2 (16:23): Yeah. And and thank you for addressing that. No, I am not an attorney and I'm not a therapist, but from, yes, from the things, uh, from the people that I have interviewed, absolutely. When the pandemic hit, we were all behind like closed doors. I mean, we couldn't leave our homes. There was all that fear, like you can't go outside and, and all that other stuff. So everybody was stuck together. You couldn't go to your office, you couldn't go to the gym or out with friends. Everybody was in close quarters. And so yes, if you were already having some challenges in your marriage or some problems with, with your spouse, it only escalated everything. And people didn't even know how to, how to, how to handle being home behind closed doors. I mean, nobody did. And even children. So when children are having a hard time, that's gonna overflow into how we parent and what if there's already problems within your marriage, it's just gonna escalate things that much even more. So, uh, yes, I have, I have heard that and it's very unfortunate. Uh, one person who I, uh, spoke to who deals a lot with high conflict said even the rates for domestic violence had increased as a result of the pandemic. And, and that was very disheartening to me because one, that's a topic very near and dear to my heart as the survivor of domestic violence. But to know that there were so many people trapped with nowhere to go broke my heart even more. Speaker 1 (17:55): Yeah. That was a tough time. And you know, I, I personally know about, I think four couples who divorced as, and they say it was a direct, uh, result of the pandemic. And obviously there were, there were underlying issues, but, uh, domestic violence being listed as as a concern in some, but even more so was the level of, of drinking. Uh, because now we're at home and no longer at the office where you really can't drink unless you do it secretly. And folks at home are able, you know, if they sort of maybe had a drinking problem to begin with, it expanded that and it just cratered the marriages. So, tough Speaker 2 (18:31): Deal. It's, it's very tough when you think about it. Before the pandemic hit, we were used to being in our routines. We get up, we get the kids on the bus, and then we go to our office. We're busy all day in, in meetings, conference calls, taking a client to lunch. We may have an after, uh, off, we may have an after office hour event. Um, a friend is in town, we're gonna go meet them quickly. But now where are you gonna go? You're, you're, there's nowhere, there's no outlet. And so yes, when people are home and their bar is right there somewhere, maybe like in the living room, if that's where they keep it, that's where they're gonna go. I don't know if the word self-medicate is accurate, bill would have to correct me on that. But they've gotta do something to, to combat all the stress that they're under with the kids home who can't go anywhere. The spouse that's home, maybe everybody's arguing more and yeah, that's, that's where people were turning. Well the Speaker 3 (19:25): Thing about the definition is self-medication is the person who's doing it decides that they're self-medicating. And it doesn't mean they should, but that's what we often see with people who are dealing with stress and already have a substance abuse tendency, is they use the substance to cope with the stress. And that usually makes the stress worse instead of better. So, so you're absolutely right. And I know from six years in alcohol and drug treatment as a professional, I might add, um, that Speaker 2 (19:59): good Speaker 1 (19:59): Clarification, , Speaker 3 (20:02): That that one of the things I learned is that when you get people clean and sober, that then they can start dealing with real problems in real ways, but that they got, they got into it from that self-medication. That's where a lot of people got into their addictions in the first place. Speaker 1 (20:21): The the old saying it's five o'clock somewhere. Yeah. Became, it's, it's 12 o'clock somewhere and maybe even it's 9:00 AM somewhere, uh, during the pandemic and that easy access and it, I think it and, and boredom. Yeah. I probably too, right. Yeah. So a combination. I know you have a, a a really large audience who listens to your radio show and, and I'm imagine you get a lot of feedback on from that. Uh, what, what types of feedback do you hear from your listeners? I I I'm guessing it's Speaker 2 (20:52): Uh, a lot of grateful. We do. We get so many people thanking us for helping them. Uh, we also get, Alyssa, you really talk to me. Uh, you really get what I'm going through. You really understand what I'm going through. They will sometimes cite different experts who really help them, uh, navigate a very difficult situation. I use the word navigate a lot cause that's what you have to do when you're going through something, especially something that's high conflict. People feel like they gained so much value. And I think somebody once said it best in an email because of us, they didn't feel so vulnerable by the system anymore. And you do, you have all these people who are coming in who are taking over your lives, dictating things to you and you're very confused. And as a result of the confusion, you're being asked a million questions. Speaker 2 (21:43): You have to make all these decisions. It's very easy to get frustrated and overwhelmed. And we try to, we try to, we try to take that out and Bill knows, we try to explain everything in what I call English. So if we have lawyers on and they use one of their fancy terms or we've had CPAs or cdfa, which is a certified divorce financial analyst, we say to them, interesting. Now what does that mean? So if you're gonna use one of your fancy terms in whatever line of work, um, you practice in, we like to explain that to people. And then when people are sitting, you know, with their attorneys, they may say, oh wait, I heard that on the show. I know what that means. They start feeling a little bit better. They feel a little bit more confident. Now they're empowered and when they're empowered they can make better decisions for their families. Speaker 2 (22:29): And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to provide everybody and we are trying to be a resource that you don't have to Google all over the place and try to find it . That's overwhelming. Get there, been there, done it. We are handing this all to you on a silver platter. Again, bill, you've been on the show. That means Bill, give everybody your information. We want everybody to have your information so they can learn more. So we can serve it right up to them. And again, we can get them educated. And when we do that, we make smarter clients and they, again, I'm gonna go back to that word, don't feel so vulnerable by all the different things that are happening because basically the foundation has come out from under them. So they're scared. We wanna help with that. Speaker 3 (23:13): That's so great. And, and I can really see people saying they appreciate this and I just had this thought for the first time and that is when I first got out of law school planning to start my family law practice. If I had listened to your show for a year, I would've been so much further along. And so I wanna suggest that we now recommended it to all first year lawyers, not just for, uh, people going through divorce. And I don't know where to tell people that, but if they say I'm a new family lawyer and I want to know where can I learn the most, the fastest, I'll tell 'em Saturday morning or Saturday, Saturday at one. It's Saturday morning Pacific time, but one o'clock Eastern time. So not only do you get feedback, uh, from from the listeners, but you yourself have probably heard some pretty interesting tidbits of information from the experts that you interview. Is there any two or three things that may jump out at you that you've learned from, uh, listening to your experts that you're interviewing? Speaker 2 (24:23): Well, I'm gonna point the finger right at you and you have taught me so much. It's incredible. And I think one of the most important things I've learned that I tell people all the time is about the fifth method because we all have to communicate with a former spouse. And how do you do that without, whether it's an email or on a parent portal where it blows up and you're just feeding the fire and creating an inferno. And you have taught me so much about how to be effective and again, not, not escalate a situation. And that has just been tremendous. I have told so many people to buy those books because of how useful they are. So, uh, I have to I point the finger at you. You've been a big, big, big, big help. Other people we once had a CPA on and they talked about the risks of filing a joint tax return within estranged spouse and the risks and the, uh, exposure that you are subjecting yourself to. Speaker 2 (25:28): Sometimes if a spouse, um, owes a lot of money and they wanna indemnify you, meaning, oh, don't worry about it, it's okay. It's not okay if your name is on it. People can be on the hook for a lot, a lot, a lot of money by going that route. So that was actually very helpful and one that I stress everybody, um, learn from. And the other, uh, that we've learned from is how to keep legal bills down and how to leave anger and emotion at the door because Bill, you've heard me say this over and over, anger is expensive. And if people don't want, you know, the perception is lawyers are gonna get all your money Yes. If you've let them because you call them with things that aren't in their real house. Their job is to be your advocate and to get you the best possible outcome for your situation. Speaker 2 (26:17): But if you call them and divert them with all these other things, well you pay for that. So, you know, it's the importance of of building a team and using that team wisely. So you know, your lawyer can do one thing and you won't get the big bills. You know, your, the accountant or the C D F A can help you understand your money because we all need it to pay our bills and survive and care of our children. So, uh, I would say those were the three that I learned the most. And, and I use them all the time When people come to me, Melissa, what do I need to know, Alyssa? I said, these are gonna be my top three, you know, communication taxes cause we're getting into tax time now and, uh, you know how to make best use of, of, of your team and get those legal bills down. Speaker 3 (27:08): Excellent. Right To the point. Such important key messages. So I you, you deal with a lot of, uh, celebrities. You've interviewed a lot of celebrities and I know in the show you refer to there's always a current celebrity divorce. And so how, how are they different or similar to everyone else going through divorce? So often wonder, you know, are they a really different planet or are they really just like everybody else, but they can't be, they've got other complications. So what's similarities and differences with the celebrity divorces? Speaker 2 (27:44): So I think one of the biggest differences is their divorce is in the spotlight. Whereas let's say I'll use myself for example, I may feel like I'm in the spotlight in my town, but if I go like to two towns over in a restaurant, nobody knows who the heck I am. But if I'm a big celebrity, everybody knows who I am and if I'm going through a divorce, everybody knows everything about my divorce, including the circumstances. So they don't get the privacy that most people do in terms of, uh, other complications with a lot of celebrities, there's more money at stake. So that further complicates a lot of stuff as you know, from your experience as an attorney, when you have to come divide everything amongst both sides. So that can be, um, a little difficult. Also, a lot of celebrities travel all the time for their jobs. Speaker 2 (28:37): Entertainers have to be on the road for let's say football games. They're on tour cuz they're at a concert, they are on a TV show and the show is filming somewhere else. So sometimes that can pose problems in terms of parenting schedules and uh, allocating parenting time. So yeah, and don't forget if celebrities go out, they can't go out and have a quiet dinner. Somebody's always got their phone taking their picture, taking their video. So if there is a third party, if they're doing something they shouldn't they can't do that on the dl it it becomes like front page news and headline news next day. It's, it's tough. They, they have a lot of, they, there's are definitely more complicated Speaker 1 (29:25): Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I can't imagine having to go through a divorce with, with the paparazzi following your every move. You know, I think of, of Kanye West and Kim Kardashian kind of the most recent one, um, in the news. And it seems like some of these divorces at for celebrities that go rather quickly must have been pre-planned. Uh, would that be accurate? Speaker 2 (29:47): It's a, that's actually probably yes and no. I mean, a great example was the Tom Brady, Giselle Bunin. Now we all knew that there was trouble, it was reported, she was photographed a few times before they made their announcement without her wedding ring. But the same day that Gisele and Tom announced their divorce was also the same day we found out it was finalized. And everyone's like, wait, what, what? Uh, hold on. I'm so confused, huh. And what they probably did in Florida, we interviewed a Florida attorney about this. Were like, how did this happen without anybody knowing? They said they kept it outta court. They probably did a mediation or collaborative. They knew this was coming and they worked this out behind closed doors until they were ready to file. Once they were ready to file, everybody found out about it. So, you know, there's so many things people can do to keep it out of the media and one way to do it is to keep it outta court. Don't litigate it. Then there's once, once it goes into court, ev any, especially in California where you guys are based, that's how everybody finds the papers . And that's when, well it was interesting. I was, I was talking to an attorney about that. I'm like, how is it that in New York we don't find out about it as quickly as you folks in California? And they, and they explain the how that happens. I'm like, ah. Speaker 1 (31:09): And, and I think with with celebrities, uh, you do have some control over how much exposure you want or don't want. And you know, you kind of see the, those who want the exposure repeatedly getting exposure and those who don't, you just don't, you don't see them so they understand how page six works, Speaker 3 (31:28): . Yeah. And it takes two to keep it quiet. If one wants to keep it quiet and the other doesn't, it's going to be out there and it takes their lawyers keeping it quiet too. Speaker 2 (31:38): Absolutely. But you know, one thing, bill, you know, you've taught me, you go back to the Kim and Kanye, you know, Kanye took to social media to talk a lot and express his feelings about this situation. Whereas Kim took a backseat. Not that I'm a Kim fan, but I'm just saying that she took a backseat in terms of how she handled it. And I'm sure she worked with her attorney and whatnot. But again, you don't, you don't have to respond and you don't have to engage. Sometimes staying quiet makes a much bigger statement than somebody else who is using all these platforms in a very negative way. People need to be careful when they're, when they're doing that, especially when there's young children. And if those kids can't read, guess what their parents can. And when they're having dinner, oh my God, your friend so-and-so, did you see what their parents did? And then that kid's gonna tell the other kid the next day on the playgrounds. People really do have to, when they're going through a divorce, be responsible with who they talk to and how they're sharing information. And in a social, in social media, and I know we live in a social media world, it's not the place. Speaker 1 (32:48): Right. And it's, I can't imagine being a, a child with, with your parents' names throughout the media. And you know, I think about this is exactly what's happening with the Britney Spears case, having so much out on social media and the father of the children being very, you know, very upset about that. Um, in terms of his teen, their teenage sons having access to this or their friends knowing that this is their mother. I, that, that just is a mind boggling, boggling concept to me. One last question here, Alyssa. You've been doing this for a while now. Um, really diving into divorce and understanding so many aspects as you said, and, and when you don't understand them, just digging in, smashing that all on the floor and figuring out where are those gaps? What do people need to know? So what are the even one of the most important things or or more than one that you've learned about divorce by doing your show? Speaker 2 (33:40): Uh, I would say there's, there's a few of them. Uh, one is, it's temporary and uh, I'm gonna go back to that hashtag you can build about better. And I think people should also use this as an education, not just my, and I'm not even talking about my show, just the divorce process. And one, there are so many times that people feel like they get cut short cuz they weren't paying attention. You have to, whether you're divorced or not, anything can happen where, uh, a spouse may suddenly pass away. They may be a tragic incident and people don't pay attention to the things that are important. And so, for example, people talk about the money all the time. And I'm not saying it to be a gold digger, but we all need money to survive and to take care of our families. And so many people don't pay attention to it. Speaker 2 (34:31): And I say have open conversations with your spouse. Learn about where things are, not because you're necessarily getting a divorce because again, if, if something should happen, you have to be in a position to take care of your family. And you should know when we become adults there are things that we should have knowledge of. And having knowledge of these things is so important. I got cut short cuz I stopped paying attention and I say it is the toughest lesson I had to learn. And it is one I preach all the time to other people. And in terms of a divorce, I tell people, don't look at it as an ending. It's, it's, it may be the ending with this particular person, but somebody did this exercise with me and it was wonderful. They had me take a blank piece of paper and grab a bunch of markers that, that were nearby and they told me to start creating my next life. Speaker 2 (35:25): You design it however I want it to be. I go back to that hashtag build back better. And I felt like I did build back better. I found that so many things in my life changed and they changed to the better that I, I surrounded myself with healthy relationships, a brand new career. I thought I taught my kids that something bad can actually result in something beautiful. And there's so many wonderful lessons I wish people would take out of this and not just, um, go to the perception of what they think divorce is. And I, I I just hope that people can realize that there again, there can be so many wonderful new beginnings, they just have to focus on that and they'll be okay. And everybody kept saying that to me, you're gonna be okay. The sun will shine. And it will. And I I I hope people get that message when they're ready to hear. It's hard to hear in the beginning. You're so overwhelmed by the emotion. But, um, at some point it's really nice to walk out and just feel that sunshine on your face and know that it's all gonna be okay. Well said. Speaker 3 (36:34): I think it's so great how positive you are about it because I really agree with you and I think with a lot of the high conflict divorces that, that an added stress is feeling like this is the end of the world. This is terrible gloom and doom and realizing this is a transition, this is a chapter and that there's a future. And I really think your show really shows that. It's like, here's problems to solve and solutions and you can move on. So I'm just so glad that you, we got to turn the tables on you and interview you this time cuz you do such a great job interviewing others. So I really appreciate getting to have this time with Speaker 2 (37:16): You. Thank you. And you know, my mom once taught me something a long time ago. Her, her attitude and it's, it's such a wonderful one, is 24 hours to mourn and then do something. Okay, you may need more than 24 hours, but it all becomes what are you gonna do with your story? And when I had two children and when my younger one was in preschool, she loves being the line leader. It was like the coolest job in the world and be the line leader, do something with your story. And I decided to be a line leader with mine and create something that really wasn't there. And yeah, I, I had a big mess, but I took that mess and I took it into a positive message. And now I get to work with amazing people such as the two of you and so many other experts. Speaker 2 (38:00): And like I said, we are helping so many people and even my own children, the message that that they got from this, and they both have come to me separately talking about friends whose parents were, were going through a divorce. And I'm just like, oh, that I'm so proud of you that you were there for them. They're like, mommy, you have to help them. Mommy, you are the one who helps everybody. Mommy, I told them to call you. And every time I I tell these stories, I cry because I'm like, that's how my children see me. I mean, what better reward is that than your own children who realize that you took something bad and now you're doing something to help so many others. And that's what this show and that's what these columns are doing. So for everybody that we get to help with the support of wonderful experts, I have to tell you, I, that's the, that's what I focus on and I get excited to, to tackle the day and ch and, and all the new challenges that it brings and look for all those new angles and reach more and more people. Speaker 2 (39:00): And I hope we can continue to change what people think divorce is and make smarter clients who will be able to work better with their teams. And people can get in and out of this process a lot quicker and just go after these new chapters and build these wonderful lives that you know, what people deserve. Speaker 1 (39:21): Absolutely. Well, Alyssa, thank you for sharing your, your wisdom, your time and your, your expertise with us and with our listeners. Um, we hope this has been helpful to you wherever you're listening to this podcast. And we hope you'll join us next week. We'll talk about some interesting questions from readers and if you have questions, please send them to podcast high conflict institute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. And if you'd l like to tell your friends about us, we'd love that. And we hope you'll just keep listening and practicing the skills that you learn on this show. Practice kindness to yourself and to others and keep driving toward the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app Laos ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our Speaker 4 (40:35): Show.