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Why Bad Boys Feel So Good · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:07
  Speaker B: Welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today are Matt Lansitl and Reno Johnston. Today we're talking about why bad boys feel so good. We'll be looking at what is it about these bad boys that makes them so magnetic? And what' actually happening underneath that attraction? And importantly, what can we actually learn from them when it comes to dating? What we want our audience to get from this episode is an awareness of the patterns that are pulling us into the same attraction dynamics and how to take the traits that work without signing up for all the nonsense that comes with it. Okay, we're gonna treat this as a learning opportunity episode. Now, as a caveat, I know that there's a lot of you who may not resonate with the term bad boys, but I want you to actually look at your attraction template. What you historically have been drawn to, not what you say you want. Very different than what you actually have been drawn to. Okay? And there's usually something there along the lines of some kind of emotional distance, maybe a bit of mystery or unpredictability. Those are the kinds of things we'll be exploring today. Right? So even if you don't necessarily resonate with bad boys, we're talking about those types of traits. Before we jump in, a little reminder that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support the podcast by making a donation using the link in the show notes. Or if you're watching us on YouTube, you can tap on that thanks button to show the podcast some love. All right? So there's this idea out there that we're attracted to bad boys, that bad boys are hot. Right? And when I say bad boys, we'll get into this in the next question. But guys that are maybe a little bit aloof, a bit cold, a bit edgy, a bit hard to get, okay? And people tend to explain that away I as being drawn to an air of confidence or mystery or like an edginess, but that may be part of it, but there's more there. That's what we want to get into today. This episode came about, if you're paying attention, because three episodes ago, we did an episode called Liked by Everyone, chosen by no one, the Nice Guy Trap. And in that conversation, the three of us were talking about it, and we're like, ha. We have another episode on this. So that's what we're picking up here today, Right. The idea of that one was that nice kills attraction. And so this is the other side of that conversation. So when it comes to bad boys, I think what we're actually reacting to is a mix of tension and inaccessibility. Someone who doesn't overly accommodate you, they kind of act like they don't give a shit. And for some reason, we find that hot. Okay. And that doesn't give you full access. Either there may be. They don't reply to your text, or they're there, then they're not. And that combination doesn't just feel attractive. It can feel very intense. And that intensity can be very compelling. Right. And so a lot of the time, we don't necessarily recognize what is attraction versus which Activation. Intimacy, intensity, attraction, activation. These are different things. So today, instead of just blanket saying bad boys are hot, okay, fine, but we're going to go deeper, right? We want to go break down into actually what's going on beneath the surface and what they're getting. Right. That most nice guys completely miss. So let's start with question one, which is, what are we actually responding to when we're attracted to bad boys? And let's start with Reno today.
• 3:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, I had to dig deep for this one because my first instinct was to be like, I'm not attracted to bad boys. Like, that's not my thing anymore, you know? And once upon a time. Yeah, exactly.
• 3:42
  Speaker C: Anymore.
• 3:42
  Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. Once upon a time. Once upon a time, there was. There was a day for sure. And I guess to. To, like, go back to that place for a moment. Yeah. Chaos, disruption, confidence. I don't know if this is a word, but contrarianism. Maybe there's a better way of. Of saying that, but, you know, all of these things, really attractive. The idea that there's someone moving in the world who's just so sort of decided in themselves and. And maybe like. Or at least it seems if you dug deeper, maybe you'd find something different. But so kind of unaffected by what's happening externally. They're just. They're moving, you know, of their own accord. That is that. That sort of confidence is really attractive. And I. I also think that what they were reflecting was an aspect of myself that longed to be expressed. You know, this sort of, like, infamy in me, the unabashedness in me, the shamelessness in me, the sovereignty in me, the audacity in me, the nerve in me, the courage in me, the boldness in Me, the fearlessness of me, the troublemaker in me, you know, etc. And so they served as like a. An expression of. And proximity to a manifestation, a potential in me that I was realizing, you know, or had not yet realized. Yeah, that's what I would say.
• 5:12
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's. I think that's true for a lot of folks. Thanks for naming that. Yeah. Matt, what about you? What do you think? What.
• 5:17
  Speaker A: What are.
• 5:18
  Speaker B: What are you responding to when we're attracted to bad boys?
• 5:22
  Speaker C: I can actually say I'm not really attracted to this anymore. But, yeah, I guess going back, for me, it was just all wounding shit. Like, I kind of broke it down into. Into two categories. Like, what am I responding to in them and what am I responding to in myself? Like my own patterns, my own shit. Right. So I'll start with in myself. Like, unpredictability is. Was a big part of it. Like, and that it creates intensity in my nervous system. And intensity, for me is a big. I can. Did used to confuse intensity and activation of my attachment system as love, passion, depth, these sorts of things. So I think that was a big, big thing. They activated me, and that's why I've had to learn how to be attracted to secure men because.
• 6:04
  Speaker A: But.
• 6:04
  Speaker C: But they don't activate me. So at first I was like, why are these types of men so boring? And they're right. But it's really just I'm not activated in my nervous system. So attachment wounds and then intermittent reinforcement. That's. If I. If I were to look at a bad boy description, I would say nine times out of 10, they're going to be avoidantly attached, right? So they have this aloofness. They have this. And I don't really care as much about connection as you. And if you've ever dated an avoidantly attached person, it can make you feel like you're a needy fucker, can make you feel like there's something wrong with you. Right? Why is this person so calm and collected and they're so grounded and centered in themselves when really they're just shut down? Right? And I think so. I think people are drawn to the illusion of what they perceive this characteristic stands for, which is like being confident, being emotionally intense or mysterious or all these qualities that they have, But I don't know if they're actually those qualities. Do you know what I mean? I think it's that they've learned how to perform in a world that rewards avoidance. Do you know what I mean? And I think that that's what. What the Bad boys looked at, it's like the avoidance of, of empathy, the avoidance of taking an interest in, in people unless it's something that's going to be, you know, like, meeting their needs. Right. It's making me think, because I'm watching the Sopranos right now and Tony Soprano is such a, a bad boy and he's an alpha and he gets so much, so many women. And they played it out so well in that series because he's the alpha and that's what all these women are drawn to. They're drawn to the power, they're drawn to the status and, and all these sorts of qualities. So. Yeah, but I think for the, for the main, the main part of it, I would say it's definitely. It's within us. It's. It's learned in our, in our attachment systems. And I think we, we often are replicating what our relationship was like with our fathers. Right. And if we didn't get our needs met or we didn't get emotionally attuned to, the bad boy is not going to give you that too. So it's going to feel familiar, it's going to create an activation in the attachment system and it's going to be like, ooh, this guy's so sexy. Right? He reminds me of my dad. But you'll, you're never make that equation consciously. It's like all subconsciously playing out.
• 8:15
  Speaker A: What's interesting about the bad boy too, as you're sort of popping the hood, is that when you get these guys in a really honest moment, they're fucking gummy bears, you know, like actually. Right. And, and, and, and also, and also, like, you start to kind of see some of the wounding as well and the performance and the sort of superficiality. It's kind of like, it's kind of like, yeah, like you were saying, there's an avoidance or there's sort of a masking essentially, is what happens there. I'm not saying that's through and through. Some of those, you know, as we'll get into later, some of those, like, you know, qualities are, I don't know, some of it's genuine, you know, some of it is like, you know, an edge that they have, but certainly there's a lot of masking and performing and covering up and avoiding.
• 9:06
  Speaker C: And I think masculinity too. If you look at bad boys, they wear an armor. They feel like they have to be super masculine and they probably perform masculinity to be strong. So people are afraid of them and. Right. They want to Be seen as the alpha. So I think what you're saying is. Is accurate. The mask of masculinity.
• 9:24
  Speaker B: I love the Tony Soprano example because I don't want to give anything away if you ever finish it. But as. As we find out when watching the show, he is deeply wounded.
• 9:33
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 9:33
  Speaker B: Yeah. And so it's very interesting to see the psychology of it play out, but. Yeah, that's a great, great example.
• 9:39
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 9:40
  Speaker B: Yeah. I think you guys nailed it. I think you both. You both said a lot of really good stuff there. You know, I think that those attraction templates have a lot also to do with, like, just human nature. Like, we are naturally, I guess, conditioned to think that what is more unavailable is more valuable. It's just the way it is, if anything, not just with people, but with items and materials. So if it's less available, it feels more valuable. We kind of want it more. And that's just brain chemistry stuff that we have to really override that. And it takes a lot of work. You know, inconsistency is. Is addictive. The highs and lows, the ups and downs. He's there, he's not there. Like, that can get compelling, very activating. And. And that, again, that. That. What is compelling, we sometimes confuse that as attraction. What is activating, we sometimes confuse as attraction. And that's really the key. So, yeah, people who are unavailable, inconsistent, can sound. Can seem very hot or very attractive, but that's not necessarily attraction. Right. Another thing that we talked about in the Nice Guy episode is that, you know, if you're turned on or if. If no one is turned off by you, then no one is turned on by you. And so they kind of do this very well, where. I think Reno had said it, where it's like, almost like a. I don't give a fuck. It's kind of hot. So that's so refreshing to, like, have someone be. So. I don't give a fuck whether they mean it or not. They. They do it well. They perform it well, whether it's true or not. And that can be almost like a. I want to be that way. Therefore, I'm attracted to that. I'm attracted to that quality in general. So therefore, I'm attracted to you because you exhibit that quality. Yeah. Anything else on. On kind of untangling what it is, exactly, We're. We're attracted to. When it comes to bad boys.
• 11:14
  Speaker A: Well, it's interesting because Matt was talking about, like, avoidance and, you know, the nervous system. And what's so interesting in this particular season of my Life is that I am. I'm actively engaging in re establishing my baseline because I grew up in such a chaotic environment. So like all the qualities of a bad boy, a one boy. Here's what I'll say. I find myself gravitating towards sort of uncertainty, chaos, excitement, etc stimulation in other areas of my life. Less so in relationship now. But what I can say is there was definitely a time where I was like I want the guy who didn't want me or the guy who was like you know, unavailable, chaotic, you know, like not there emotionally but then was. And you know it's that whole, it's that whole dynamic that there was something so kind of alluring about the. The trouble of it all, the chaos of it all. Use the word activation. Yeah. Like it really turned me on and still even in this moment sometimes like you know there is that kind of excitement at the idea of it a bit but it's not. I don't want to live there. You know, like I love to get into a bit of trouble here and there, a bit of mischief. I'll always be that way. That's me know and also it's like that's not. I don't want that to be my baseline. I want that to be sort of the foundation and the sort of sum of the relationship I'm in or you know, what have you. Yeah. But it's, it's fun sometimes I feel that.
• 12:50
  Speaker C: Suckers for punishment. We move towards activation in our, our nervous systems because it's familiar but it's like a guy that can make you feel safe. Most people would choose the guy that activates them over the guy that makes them feel safe. Right. Until you get to a certain point on the healing path where it's like okay. Because it's like the nervous system's not entrained in knowing what safety feels like. Right. What does safe love feel like? What does it feel like to be shown up for. What does it feel like for somebody to be honest with me. Right. And I don't think these qualities come in somebody that has these types of qualities. Right. Anti social qualities or maybe not to that extreme in the sense of having avoidant attachment. It's not an anti social thing, it's a fear based thing.
• 13:29
  Speaker A: I like my chocolate sweet with a dash of salt and a dash of spice.
• 13:37
  Speaker C: Just a dash.
• 13:40
  Speaker B: I spent probably eight years of my love life chasing one guy who is the quintessential bad boy and he. Everything you guys are saying like just totally. And it was that earning dynamic. It was the part of me that had not gone through all of this journey that I have recently, who just learned and thought that I had to earn and chase everything. Everything. Including love. Including love. And so that was what it was.
• 14:08
  Speaker C: He.
• 14:08
  Speaker B: He held all the power. And I played into it because I'm like, I. I can win. I will win you over. I will earn this. And I did. We were on again, off again, on again, off. We had three separate times. We were on again. And then the times that we were off. Even though we weren't together, my brain was on him. I was always thinking about him, comparing everybody else to him, wanting him back, trying to get him back, figuring out, how do I do this? And eight years, guys. Eight years, right? Not. Not connecting, but chasing. And so, you know, that is a big, compelling aspect of it as well, especially if you're good at chasing. Then it's like, oh, no, I can totally do this. I can win this. I'm going to win this guy over. I'm going to show him, right? And there's nothing more attractive than a man who does not need your approval.
• 14:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, you named a big one, too. It's that whole, like, I'll win you over. I can. I can. That was a big one for me. It was like, I can change you. I can. I can change you. Like, I'll be the one who tamed. Tamed the beast. Right? Yeah, for sure. I forgot about that bit. Yeah, it's interesting, too, because I'm thinking about, like, I just thought of Queer as Folk. I'm Kinney, right? You know, he was like the guy everyone wanted, you know, to fucking. And everyone who didn't want to fucking want to be him. And some people want to fucking be him. You know what I mean? But it was like, he was like the bad boy of the show, you know? And I remember, like, that was aspirational, you know, like, at one point, I was like, to be. To be that character, to be like that person, you know? But then you start to again pop the hood and realize, like, softy, insecure, you know, wounded, etc. Like, all of that, you know, like, okay, cool. And then that's where that whole. Well, but I can fix him. I can. I can heal him. You know, I can make that boo boo better. It's like, yeah, good luck with that. Like, you know, we're done dating projects.
• 15:55
  Speaker B: You got to keep reminding me of that sometimes. I still sometimes start going down that road. No, no, no, no, no, no.
• 15:59
  Speaker C: Michael.
• 16:00
  Speaker A: Yeah, all right.
• 16:02
  Speaker B: I'd love to hear from our audience. Have you ever been drawn to a bad boy? And what is it about him that appeal to you? Let us know in the comments on YouTube. Okay? And if you're enjoying the conversations we're having here, please do join us at one of our connection circles. Each month we have two connection circles where we facilitate small, intimate conversations about the topics that we discuss here. Very similar to what Matt, Reno and I are doing right now. But instead of us, we put you guys in breakout rooms with other listeners of the show, and you get to talk about things. So for all of the different topics we have, please go to gaiman'sbrotherhood.com and then check out the event section to RSVP. Better yet, get on our email list and we'll email you all the dates, topics, and zoom links ahead of time. All right, so let's turn this a little bit. What can we learn from these bad boys? What is it that they get right that maybe nice guys or other folks don't when it comes to. Specifically to dating Reno, I had to think about.
• 16:58
  Speaker A: I had to think about some of the public figures, you know, like people I've seen on social media, on YouTube, or in music, et cetera, to sort of find examples of this. But I. I think it's. I think what they get, what they do get right, whether they mean to or not, is this. I want to use the word unapologetic, but there's a way that they orient themselves to the world that in. In some. In some ways. And again, it's so nuanced because obviously there is more going on there when you dig a bit deeper. But they tend to be more inwardly sourced than outwardly sourced. Right. They tend to be unafraid of being. What's the word I'm looking for? Infamous. Like, there's a fearlessness in the face of the potential for infamy and backlash as well. They're willing to forge forward and create and express and expose themselves out in the world in a way that's really shameless, really unapologetic, really unfiltered. And I think that that's great. They're not. They don't aim to please. And I think. I think nice guys, they're. They're sort of a codependence there in a way. Like, they are really outsourcing, like, where they get their validation from and their reinforcement from. And that's kind of unattractive, I would say, like, knowing that what you're up to is dependent on, like, what I think, for example, Like, I don't want to know what I think and how you're responding to what I think. Like, I. What do you think? Who are you? You know, what's true for you? And. And I also think that there's a willingness in. In the. In the bad boys to, like, rock the boat a bit, to be disruptive, you know, and that's. That's really. I would say that's one of the things that I find the most attractive, is that fearlessness when it comes to being disruptive or when it comes to buc. Blocking the status quo, when it comes to going their own way or going against sort of societal norms and standards, and this willingness to sort of express the shadow or the. The dark side of things, to not only sort of point to it, but to have it on full display as well. Like, that's. Yeah, I think. I think there's something really appealing about that. You know, what I would say, though, is, like, at some point, you kind of find a balance, a place where. Like, that. When that's happening, it's coming from, like, an authentic place as opposed to a performative place. So there is that kind of middle ground that's not coming from wounding, but it's also not, you know, wounding. That is sort of bravado, if you will, or. Or aversion or protection, you know, on one side, or wound, you know, for the nice guy. I think it's like they both come from a similar place. Insecurity, I think. And it looks different when it comes from that grounded, centered, whole, full place.
• 19:58
  Speaker B: Yeah, this is so many Reno. That's actually really good. Yeah, there's. There's. There's a lot that is attractive there that's actually worth keeping. But I agree, the place it's coming from really does matter. But you can still learn from it, right? You can still say, okay, that's the type of behavior. That's what I'm looking for. Like, I'm not saying we need to, like, replicate and. And be exactly like these folks, but I think it is important. And I. I do this with anything, right? Just. Even when there's people I disagree with, I'm like, well, what can I learn from you? And I think that's just such an important skill to have in general. Again, even if the bad boys aren't your thing or they've even hurt you, just. It's a very interesting question. Rio answered it so well. Like, as you were talking, like, oh, yeah, there's that, and there's that, and there's that.
• 20:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, And I'll just add one more thing, which is like this thing around, you know, canceling became this term that's like really popular in society now. You know, everyone's like, afraid of getting canceled, etc. Etc. And I really feel like, you know, there's something in all of that. And I think something that the bad boy does really well is, is this like, again, this fearlessness in the face of. The face of that, like, not only are they. Do they. Do they appear to be unafraid to be canceled, like, collectively, but if we were to sort of look at like sitting with you face to face, like they're. They're not afraid to be canceled by you. You know, like they're sitting down with you, they're interacting with you. They're not going to withhold anything, right? It's a no holds barred kind of conversation, at least for them. And they're not afraid of being quote, unquote, canceled by you. That is you getting up and leaving the date or not seeing them again or whatever. And like, gosh, there's something about that that's so fucking liberating, right? It doesn't mean don't care about people, you know, it doesn't mean don't be aware of your impact. There's a middle ground, right? But there is something about that kind of edge where you're like, go ahead, I can't be canceled. You know what I mean? That's. That's hot. Yeah, agreed.
• 21:51
  Speaker B: Yeah. Matt, what would you add to all this?
• 21:53
  Speaker C: Yeah, it's hard to add after that.
• 21:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, some good ones.
• 21:55
  Speaker C: Yeah, I would maybe change it. I'll change my. The way the question's actually written. So what do bad boys get? Right. I'd put air quotes around the word. Right. Because nice guys tend to be more anxious. I would say bad boys tend to be more avoidant. If you look at attachment spectrumy and anxious people tend to self abandon. Avoidant people tend to abandon others. Right. At least perceived to abandon others. So I don't. I think the thing that a bad boy would get right is that they don't abandon themselves to try and win somebody over. Right. They're more fierce. They go for what they want. Whereas I think nice guys tend to like, shape shift. They people please, they over text, they over explain these sorts of qualities. And I think for a lot of people, they can find that to be like, really unattractive. It's almost like they're auditioning for your love. Like, it's like when somebody's auditioning for Your love. It's like, wait a minute. I want you just to. To take it. Like, don't. You don't have to audition for it. Like, let's kind of create this chemistry together. So maybe like, the. The nice guy is a bit too cautious, but I would say the. The. The bad boy tends to be a bit more. What's the opposite of cautious?
• 22:58
  Speaker B: Fearless. Carefree.
• 23:00
  Speaker C: Yeah. Like, just kind of in that energy. And I think people are drawn to that. Yeah. Yeah. What else did I write down here? Oh, they express desire directly. I think bad boys tend to be really, like, they. They go for what they want, they say what they want. They. Guys that are more on that spectrum, like, they would, like, talk dirty to you and, like, they're not, like, as cautious about, like, hurting your feelings or being too crude or these sorts of things. So there's an element of, like, oh, it's kind of naughty. Right. And there's that. That side to it. And I will say probably. And again, this is something that you would see in somebody with an avoidant attachment is that they prioritize themselves with strong boundaries. Right. And so that's. That's a quality, a good quality, technically, of somebody that's avoidant. But if you can't actually come into connection, your boundaries are to sever connection, then it's not really healthy. Do you know what I mean? So, like, that's why I put right around the. This. Because I don't know if this is a healthy dynamic. I really don't. I think there's aspects of it. I think it can. Bad boys can be seen as authentic too, but at what point are they performing their bad boy thing? And is it. Is it actually authentic? Right. Yeah. And I think under. Like Reno said, underneath all bad boys, there's a. There's a scared little boy. And as you see in therapy with Tony Soprano, his scared little boy, right. As soon as he gets scared, he goes into anger and rage. Right. So I just think that there's. The psychology of these types of men is very fascinating.
• 24:22
  Speaker B: That's what makes me attracted to them, too.
• 24:23
  Speaker A: I know. I was gonna say, and they're fun. You know, there's something fun about them for sure. Matt, I have a question for you. Yeah, Actually, I have a question for both of you, and this is for all three of us and maybe even our audience as well. Like, have you ever been the bad boy?
• 24:39
  Speaker C: Oh, yeah, right.
• 24:41
  Speaker B: I'm sure in someone's story, I'm the bad boy.
• 24:43
  Speaker A: Yeah, I like that in someone's story I'm the bad boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Same. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Wow. You know, it's funny. It makes me think of the Cartman's drama. Triangle, victim, villain, hero. I think it is. And it's so interesting too, because, like, given what you just said, Michael, it's sort of. It's interesting. We're all. We're all sort of any one of those at any given time. It's really cool to consider what you just said, that I've been the bad boy and someone's. Someone.
• 25:12
  Speaker B: Can you think of those actual examples?
• 25:14
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 25:15
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 25:15
  Speaker C: Okay.
• 25:16
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah, definitely. I didn't realize it though, because in my crazy little world in my head, I was like. My friend said to me one time, she goes, I bet you've broken a lot of hearts and no one has ever said that to me. And I went, I have. That's right. Like it has happened. You know, heartbreak is a synonym for disappointment, you know? But I didn't realize that. And when she said it, I was like, wait. Yep, there have been a few, for sure. I'm the bad boy. And a few stories. Yeah.
• 25:45
  Speaker B: I think everyone, like, we. We all, like, we're talking about these two episodes. Like, they're absolutes.
• 25:50
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 25:51
  Speaker B: We all have nice guy tendencies, and we can all put on that hat with certain people, and we all have bad boy tendencies. We can all put on that hat at certain times. So it's not just like this binary. We are one always or the other. But maybe think about it as, like, where are we drawing from these traits? And where are we drawing from these traits? And where. Where am I playing this role? Perhaps in somebody else's story.
• 26:11
  Speaker C: Yeah, and the same thing. What I'm talking about attachment styles. Like, you can be. You can have an anxious attachment and you can be in protest behavior and acting out bad boy energy and being really manipulative and. Right. So there's intentionality behind behaviors is everything, I think. And also avoidantly, attachment can also move into a pleasing.
• 26:30
  Speaker B: Right.
• 26:30
  Speaker C: If they're. If that's what their nervous system is not feeling safe, they can just appease in conflic conflict to get away. Right. So it's. Yeah, there's. There's so much nuance to this conversation. If we were to keep on peeling back the layers of the onion for the sake of time, we just share what sits at the surface.
• 26:46
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think I. I have a lot of experience with. With bad boys. Not just that one particular person, but in general. Like, it's. It's my Achilles heel is that the right term? Like, I just.
• 26:54
  Speaker A: It's.
• 26:55
  Speaker B: And my friends will know it. They'll still see me doing it, and they'll see me just, like, wandering like the zombie and like, oh, my God, look at that guy. And they're just like, no, no, no, no, no. We know what's gonna happen next. So, yeah, I know it. I get it. I feel like I. And. And that point we just made, like, I love the psychology of it, right? Like, I want to understand them. I want to know, make some tick. I find them. I find them a psychological project, which I just love. But is that the person I want to spend my time with, like, forever? No, Reena, what you said is very much my. Like, I can. I. I. Yeah, that's very much me. It can be fun, and it is fun, but is it what I want to. Is it ultimately what I want? No. The answer is no. And I've learned that the part that I love about a bad boy and that I still have to learn from is what we just talked about in our last episode about approval seeking. What I learned from them or how they inspire me is that they're not trying to be liked. They are, quote, unquote, selfish because they prioritize themselves. And sometimes they actually are, like, selfish in a. In a negative way. But the point is, take what resonates and leave the rest, right? So I can be like, oh, you know what? I really need a piece of that. I need a need to go a little bit on. On more of what they're doing over here, especially when it comes to dating, because they do have clear boundaries. And they say, no, no, I'm not doing that. That's it. They don't make you the center of their world. They're not in any rush. They're not in any rush. None of the bad boys I've been have been in any rush to see me at all.
• 28:15
  Speaker A: At all.
• 28:15
  Speaker B: At all.
• 28:16
  Speaker A: At all.
• 28:16
  Speaker B: It's always on their terms. They're no rush. You know, the story I tell myself and have we had this discussion? The story I tell myself is that these guys know their worth and know their value. Now, as we've talked about today, we don't know that that's true. They could be deeply insecure. They could not know their worth or know their value. But the way I perceive it, when someone is like that is like, oh, this person just knows who he is. He's kind of like that. That bad boy. It's interesting how I put the filter of he knows his worth and value. And they let others come to them. And that's the part that I think that we could all use a little bit more of instead of chasing. I mean, me, instead of my habit of chasing, just like, stay put, let. Let people come to you. Be open and welcoming. When they do come to you, don't like, dismiss them, but like, be like, be a co. Creator in this experience, but maybe not be so desperate and not be so chasey. That's. That's what I've learned from them, I think.
• 29:06
  Speaker A: Something they do really well, too. I was just thinking about this distinction going off of what you were just saying, Michael. Something they do really well is audacity. You know, again, going back to some of these public figures that I think of, you know, these infamous public figures. Yeah. Something I see they all do really well is audacity. Now, I think there's a distinction between the sort of audacity that comes from a place of like, integratedness and like self love, if you will, and. And one. And an audacity that comes from ignorance. Right. And again, performance and ego and bravado. Like all of that, they may look the same in some ways, but they're not. They're not the thing, you know? And in fact, I would say what the nice guy and the bad boy have in common, because they're both codependents. Yeah, yeah. They just. In different masks in different suits. Yeah, yeah.
• 30:07
  Speaker B: Do you think bad boys are actually attracted to nice guys?
• 30:09
  Speaker A: That's a good question. I don't. Matt, what do you think?
• 30:11
  Speaker B: You would never know. I wouldn't know.
• 30:13
  Speaker C: I think they get what they want from it, which is an element of power over. They have power over because you need a. You need a distancer and you need a pursuer in. In those types of relationships. And they always want to be the distancer. Right. So to be pursued, you'd need to be. You need to pursue another bad boy. Is not going to pursue another bad boy.
• 30:33
  Speaker B: Right.
• 30:33
  Speaker C: Like as much as a guy that is willing to abandon himself, which is. Tends to be more nice guys.
• 30:39
  Speaker B: Yeah. It's a perfect match.
• 30:41
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 30:41
  Speaker C: They need each other.
• 30:42
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 30:43
  Speaker C: Until they heal and then they don't.
• 30:45
  Speaker B: All right, guys, anything you'd want to add before I wrap this up?
• 30:48
  Speaker A: I think the last thing I would say is like, I'm just going to point to the yin and yang. The yin yang symbol. Right. It's like what. What we've seen in this conversation is that there's something. There's something to be learned and gleaned and gained from understanding and integrating, like, all of ourselves, you know, the whole of us. And so I would say if you notice bad boy tendencies or nice guy tendencies, you know, and everything in between, bring your curiosity and love to it, bring your presence to it and see it as an opportunity to kind of get curious, like, what. What's this about? What does it want? What does it need? Why is it showing up? And then to take a moment to. To spend some time with it and see if you can integrate it. Because I think it's through the integration of those parts that we find that middle way we've spoken about so many times in other episodes that. That, you know, that place of centeredness where you're not oscillating between one end of the spectrum or the other, you know, and in. In this sort of trauma response, if you will. Right. Hang out with them, you know, if you're a nice guy, like, get. Get familiar with that part of you, you know, and the bad boy. And if you notice yourself rejecting any of those parts, probably something there for you as well, you know, I'm not a bad boy. I'm not a nice guy. It's like, okay, cool. Well, there's your work.
• 32:11
  Speaker B: Well said. Well said. Great. Part two to the episode about nice guys. So now we've done them both. And for our viewers and listeners out there, a little challenge to you. Send this episode to a bad boy or someone you perceive to be a bad boy. I'd love to hear what they have to think about what we just shared here today. All right, thank you, Matt and Reno, for your time today, and thank you to our viewers and listeners. Reminder, if you're watching us on YouTube, tap that thanks button. To support the gay men's brotherhood and the Gay Man Going Deeper podcast, you could also subscribe to Apple Podcasts to get early access to episodes about three weeks before they are released to the public. All of your support helps us to continue making this content for the community
• 32:50
  Speaker C: and for you guys.
• 32:51
  Speaker B: Thank you so much. We'll see you next time.