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What We Love About Being Gay · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:04
  Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to gay men going Deeper, a podcast by the gay men's brotherhood, where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. We have Matt Lensittal. He is a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. And Reno Johnston is a spiritual life, love, and business coach. I am Michael Diorio, a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships, and self confidence. We each have our own private practice, and in this podcast, we are sharing all of our best stuff. And my friends, today, this episode deserves a drum roll because we have reached episode number 200 of the gay Men going Deeper podcast. Yes. Congratulations, boys. We made it. So, before we jump into the topic, let's just honor that. Let's celebrate ourselves in this podcast and the growth that we've had. So, Matt, I mean, and by the way, for the people who are new here, the three of us are three of the four original members of the podcast. We're just missing Callan. But, yeah, we started this in 2020. Our first episode was July 2020, and so here we are four years later. Um, so, yeah, Matt, let's start with you. What's something that you remember the most about this podcast?
• 1:24
  Speaker B: Well, the first thing that stands out is when Callen swallowed the fly. Yes, that was pretty hilarious. But I think the biggest thing that stands out is, like, I go back and, like, you know, the first episode we did was on rejection. And, like, just hearing us talk and we were all like little babies and, like, you know, I could just see in myself, like, I had so much work to do and, like, reflect on, like. Like, inner work. I mean, and then looking back, um, like four years, just how far we've all come and the growth we've had and the journeys that we've. We've embarked on together, both personally and professionally. It's just, uh. Yeah, it's really neat, you guys. We, like, we're. We have this little micro brotherhood, and then we have this macro brotherhood that we're building. And it's really cool that, like, as we've grown in our little micro brotherhood, like, it's kind of, like, transferred out into the. Into the macro. Like, it's just been really, really neat to see that.
• 2:18
  Speaker A: So, yeah, it doesn't even feel like four years. That seems like so much longer. But here we are. Right, Reno, how about you? You have an interesting experience because you were in, and then you took a break, and then you're back, right?
• 2:32
  Speaker C: I was plucked from obscurity. You all found me in some dark corner of some skanky nightclub hamming it up. And they were like, you. You've got talented. But, yeah, it's been. It's been amazing. It's been amazing to, like, to witness our growth. It's been amazing to witness the growth of the community and the evolution of this thing. And also, just sometimes I forget because we have this little, like, nucleus, the three of us. Sometimes I forget. I'm like, oh, yeah, there are, like, thousands of people listening to this, and we're just getting on here every week and spilling our guts. And it's a really beautiful thing, though. And what I've seen as time has gone on is like, these. Yeah, these relationships forming, and I really feel this, like we've got each other's backs, you know, there's, like, love there, and it's really beautiful and probably my favorite thing. And it's so silly, but y'all don't know this. Sometimes when we're recording, we have these, like, silly little words that we'll type in the chat to make each other laugh. So if you're ever watching on YouTube and you notice that, like, one of us is giggling or holding back a smile in, like, a weird moment, it's because I've probably written, like, muskrat poops or something like that in the chat, and we're all trying so hard not to laugh. So it's. I think that's the thing. That's one of the things I love the most about this. This. This podcast is, like, we get deep, and it gets really juicy and emotional sometimes, and we also just have so much fun, you know? Like, we know how to laugh. We know how to have a good time. We know how to kiki. Like, it's. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah.
• 4:41
  Speaker A: You're giving away all of our secrets, Reno.
• 4:43
  Speaker C: I know. We'll have to make some new ones.
• 4:46
  Speaker A: Yeah, we will.
• 4:47
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 4:48
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 4:48
  Speaker C: I think about you, Michael.
• 4:49
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 4:50
  Speaker A: I think it's funny what you were saying, reno, about the spilling of the guts, because I have listened to 200 episodes. I've listened to maybe two after they've been released, and I listen and not watch yet. So when we're here, like you said, I'm just talking, and I'm just focused on you guys. I'm not always thinking about the thousands of people who are listening. Right. And so people will walk up to me randomly in Puerto Vallarta or here in Toronto and be like, oh, my God, that story you told about your mom or that story you told about that time you got ghosted at that time, you said this, and I'm like, how do you know that? And so I forget a lot of what I tell people. Um, but I think that's a fun thing. I think it's kind of fun that, that we have that opportunity to get to share. And I think that the way, hopefully, that people receive that is that, you know, take it and learn from it. At least be. Be educated, be entertained, but take what you want from it. And I feel like it's such a blessing to, to get to do this.
• 5:49
  Speaker C: Love that.
• 5:50
  Speaker A: All right, guys. Yeah. So we are at episode 200, and today we're celebrating by reveling in all of the things we love about being gay. So this podcast was created by gay men for gay men. And I know that now we have an audience that encompasses so, so, so much more than that. And I want to say to you guys, you're welcome here and we appreciate you. Please stick around. Please stay. We love that you're here. But for today, we're going to go back to our roots just a little bit. And we're going to be talking. Talking about why we love being gay, but also honoring that. This wasn't always necessarily the case. So we're going to reveal how our relationship with our gayness has evolved over the years. And that's with a g and an a, okay? Although that could be another episode, by the way.
• 6:34
  Speaker B: Guinness.
• 6:36
  Speaker A: Okay, a couple reminders before we jump in. We'll be continuing this discussion on the last Thursday of the month in the gay men's Brotherhood sharing circles. We also have our connection circles on the second Thursday of the month, which are smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you can discuss the topics of the podcast with other members of the community. To get the information, go to www.gaymensbrotherhood.com and go to our events section to register for the events. We will email you all the info you need to join us. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported, so if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation using the link in the show notes. You could also subscribe to get early access to episodes on Apple Podcasts, and all of your support helps us to continue making content and supporting the community. So we thank you very, very much in advance. And if you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, please check out our coaching collection. It includes two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships, plus over 45 premium personal development coaching videos on topics such as body positivity, relationships, self confidence and community. Head over to gay men going deeper.com for more. And finally, this one's very, very important because it is our 200th episode. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. We release new episodes every Thursday, so make sure you click on the bell icon to get notified when we release a new one. And if you're listening to us on a podcast platform, please subscribe. Leave a review and a five star rating these reviews and ratings helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. All right, picture it. Planet Earth in the summer of 2020. We're in the midst of a global pandemic, and four canadian boys who've never met each other in person decide to start a podcast for gay Mendez, talking about topics that we felt weren't being talked about at a deeper level. Our first episode was about rejection. It's very casual. No big promotion, no big reveal. We just quietly started it without any fanfare. Now here we are, four years and 200 episodes later. It has been quite a journey. As we've divulged a bit, we have grown. We have evolved personally, professionally, as a podcast, as a brotherhood. We've had some amazing guests over the years, a lot of laughs and even a few tears. So today, I'm feeling very grateful to be here with you and that. Like, I get to do this every week with you guys. So I'm feeling very truly blessed. But I have to say, it wasn't always this way. Matt and Reno know this and Callan. But when the idea of a podcast came up, I did not want to do it. I was, the three of them were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do a podcast. And I was like, hell no, I do not want to do this. I was terrified. I was afraid of being exposed to the general public because people can be mean. I was afraid of being judged. And yet, deep down, deep, deep down, I knew that I had to do it. My fears were loud, overwhelming. What about this? What about this? And there's so much being thrown at me in my brain, but I, that little whisper of intuition said, do it. And so I knew I had to. Now, personally speaking, I'm sharing the story with you because this podcast journey mirrors my journey with being gay and coming out in that regard. I was in my teens and twenties, and I also felt a very, very strong resistance to being gay. I spent years wishing and praying I wasn't a. I had a fear of being exposed. I had a very strong desire to want to stay hidden under the radar. And I was afraid, very similarly, of what others would say and what they would think. And yet, just as with the podcast, I had this deep inner knowing that it had to be done. And again, the growth mirrors that of the podcast. Now, I sit here 20 years, I guess, after coming out, and I see being gay as a blessing, and I would not change it for anything. And if God gave me a choice in my sexuality, and I assure you she did not, I would choose it all over again. So today we're going to be sharing that journey with why we love being gay and how we got here, because everyone's journey's a bit different. But first, I have a caveat, a very, very important caveat. I want to add a little bit of context to this before we jump in. Okay? I live in Canada. I'm a white, cis, able bodied man, and I was able to get an education, and I had a family that overall supported me. And I know full well that that affords me privilege that not everyone has. And I think that needs to be said right from the top. Right? So as we have this conversation about why we love being gay, we need to consider those factors. Nevertheless, I do believe strongly that everyone has the potential to celebrate their sexuality. Yet we must also recognize that this process is more challenging for some than others. That cannot be discounted. Okay. It's challenging, but not impossible. That's my caveat today. And I want to get started today with Reno.
• 11:54
  Speaker C: Knew it. Knew it. Well, where to start? I. As I. As I do with some of the topics that we propose. This one was a bit tricky for me, I think, because I associate coming into my gayness and, and owning it with, with coming into myself, you know, coming into myself.
• 12:39
  Speaker A: And, I mean, we're all thinking it.
• 12:44
  Speaker C: What are you thinking?
• 12:46
  Speaker A: You said, coming into my anus.
• 12:52
  Speaker C: Yeah, no, I definitely. Yeah, no, now I know why you said, now I know why you said this. The g thing, the ga. Thank you. Yeah, I associate it with coming, you know, coming into myself. Oh, my God.
• 13:07
  Speaker A: It doesn't sound any better saying it.
• 13:10
  Speaker C: I keep saying it. Oh, my God. Okay, so, you know, go back in time and you've got this, like, beautiful, sweet, curious, expressive, compassionate, sensitive, intuitive, creative, balanced little human named Reno. And I think in one of our recent episodes, I. I had spoken or sort of traveled back in time and recalled myself at that age and how beautiful I was and how with it, I was. And that over time, life sort of came in and there was adversity and there were challenges and there was a sort of, let's say, like a pushback from the external world. And I don't know if everyone would feel this way right now, especially if you're in the midst of it. But what I can say is that I stand here grateful for, or I sit here grateful for the. The adversity that I experienced on this journey of coming into my gayness. I can't help myself because it has strengthened me. It has strengthened me, and it has really supported me in becoming the most authentic version of myself. And I think that, for me, is one of the most valuable things about the gay experience, about becoming gay. You know, we come in and there's sort of this established norm and these, you know, this set of rules and ways of being in the world. And it's very heteronormative and probably influenced by religion and things of that nature, different cultures, if you will. And we're not written in, so we. So we have to. And get to, I'll say, write our own book, create our own story, discover our identity, you know, and then live into it. And I would say that is one of the things I love most about being gay is the discovery of it all. You know, I'm not beholden to what it means to be a man or a woman or a person here. I'm not beholden to what you're supposed to wear or listen to how you're supposed to walk, talk, act, live, do as a profession, how you're supposed to sit, you know, what sports you're supposed to play, what your lifestyle is supposed to look like. I just get to discover that and then live into it. And so for me, yeah, that is probably one of the most exciting things about being gay. Yeah. And can you reiterate the question one more time? I just want to make sure I got everything.
• 17:15
  Speaker A: The question was, what do you love about being gay?
• 17:18
  Speaker C: Yeah. So that on a more, let's say, like, maybe superficial level. Right? Like, let's get into kind of the fun stuff. It's like, I love that last year, I put on a pair of ankle boots with a six inch stiletto heel, cut off jeans, a tutu, a crop top, and my sunglasses, and, like, went out dancing at the club with, you know, all my queer friends. Amazing. I love that, you know, if I move to, like, I'll sort of prance around the living room and, you know, dance to disco and let my arms flow and flare. And it's, you know, like, there's that bit I love, you know, very explicitly, like, getting to make love to men, you know, being in relationship with men and having really good sex with beautiful men. It's delightful. I love it. I'm here for it, you know? And also there's, like, a level of intimacy and connection and understanding that comes with that experience. So that's been really exciting as well. And the culture, you know? The culture, yes. Give or take, right? I I think it's fair to say that as a person of color, I have a different experience than those who are not. And also. And it comes with its adversity and its difficulties and all of that. And also, I think it's so fun being gay. The celebration, the color, the vivacity, the diversity, the openness to welcoming in new things, having new experiences, the community. There's so much there. And I really think that if the larger population were honest, and I would say a lot of them are, I'm not saying. Excuse me? I'm not saying they're not. We're inspiring people who probably wouldn't even admit it. You know, we're inspiring, challenging, galvanizing, healing people who we don't even realize, you know, through our being, we're liberating people, you know, people who don't even identify as gay but are just afraid to be themselves. You know, they're seeing us. They're being challenged by it. And I. Yeah. So, anyway, I could go on and on. It's fabulous being gay. I'm so grateful. And, of course, we've come a long way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:12
  Speaker A: Thanks, Reno. That's, um. I love what you had talked about at the end there with, uh, galvanizing everyone. It's not just about the gay community or queer community, but, like, really permission to be ourselves and really live out loud in color can be for anyone. And that's. That's super important to remember. So, again, to all of our non gay audience, thank you for being here. Matt, how about you? What do you love?
• 20:38
  Speaker B: What do I love about being gay? This has been definitely a journey for me, I would say, you know, what you said off the top, like, being, like, the privilege that we have, I think for me, like, I guess it could always be worse. But I think it was a big challenge for me, whether I was white or able bodied or I privileged to live in Canada or anything like that. I think for me, I still struggled tremendously with being gay. And over the course of the last 20 years, I've made some big strides. And I feel like I'm at a place now where I've fully moved towards getting to a place where I embrace being gay and being authentically, me, even within the gay community, because the gay community, we separate ourselves and we're authentic from, say, the masses. But then within the community, there's a bunch of subsets, and I feel like I've found, like, who I am within that community as well, which I love. And I think part of being a part of the community, the gay community, is that there's a lot of diversity. And I think I really love that about being gay. I love the fact that I can show up and I can be whoever, and there's a higher probability of inclusion. I find within that group of people. At least that's how I perceive it and how I feel. I think for me, being gay brought me to. If I look at it like this, like, a big part of how I got into doing drugs and alcohol and partying was because of being gay, which I had a ton of fun times in my twenties and in my teens around that. But that brought me to having an addiction, and then having an addiction brought me to my purpose, my life purpose, which is to help people and become a counselor and do this work. So if I look at it, my gayness and the struggle that I had brought me to my life purpose. So, like, being gay, for me, is. Has been a blessing. There's been a big silver lining. Like, the way I look at my addiction, it's the same thing. There's a big silver lining in my addiction is the sense that I had to go deep, deep, deep into myself to heal and figure out where this addiction was coming from. And I gained a lot of self awareness. I gained a career out of it and these sorts of things. So, yeah, I think that I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that and then starting the brotherhood, I've realized, like, there's an innate cord that binds us all. It doesn't matter whether you're trans, queer, gay, bisexual, it really doesn't matter. It's this cord that we've. That we've had to deal with a really important aspect of our nature, whether it be our gender or sexuality. We've had to deal with being different, so that minority stress that we might struggle with. So I find, like, just building the brotherhood, it's like, when we come into group, we all can feel that energetic resonance of that wound that we all carry, right? And I think that brings camaraderie. It brings, like, a depth in, like, coming together. Like, we all have this shared experience, and I think, like, you know, to pay tribute to our 200th episode, like, the. The one that you and I, Michael did on shame healing. Shame. Like, that one really packed a punch when, when you were talking about, like, you know, your story about being gay and your dad, like, looking at you when you had your towel around you and you were singing to Madonna and stuff, and, you know, just like those moments that we all can relate to and like, oh, shit, like, you know, that. That oh moment where it's like, oh, I'm not like them, right? And we have that moment, and it's like that shame that comes over. I feel like, you know, we all. I'm not going to say we all. I can't speak for everybody, but a lot of us carry that, right? And I think it's. It's a, it's a glue that brings us together and can bring a lot of closeness and intimacy if. If we understand it, nurture it, learn to love that part of ourselves, and we bring it into connection. I think it can really bring, bring a lot of. A lot of people together. And then my relationship to my feminine, like, again, this was why I struggled with being gay, because I really was fed messages from the patriarchy or the patriarchal system around, like, don't connect with these parts of yourself and shame these parts. And, you know, being around other people that are more overtly connected to that part of themselves has helped me. At first, it didn't feel like it was helping me. It was really triggering me, but it actually helped me learn how to embrace and love the parts of myself that are more leaning in that direction. So it could be my sensitivity or my mannerisms that I talk a lot with my hands or these sorts of things. So I think that's been a big one. And I see a lot of us that have struggled a lot with being gay. There's a resilience, like, and it comes a bit later, I find. But then once we find that resilience, we really have this depth and we have this rooted deep within, and the wind can't sway us, right? It's like we're in that place. So a lot of mine are really rooted in this spiritual, emotional, psychological thing, but there also is this physical piece that I really love about being gay. And, um, you know, like, I find and, well, something I bitch about a lot in the gay community is the hypersexuality. But at the end of the day, it's nice to have it there if I wanted to access it, because I have a lot of straight male friends and it's not so easy for them to have casual sex. You got to go on dates and pay for them in court. And this whole thing to. To get to the thing that you want. Where I find within the gay community we have that if you want to have. Just have sex, move towards that. It's there for you. So there's easy access to sex for the most part. And then, yeah, gay sex. Like Reno said, like, I'm not gonna lie. Like, I. I hope I reincarnate again as a gay man because I love gay sex and I love the fact that I've overcome that shame around, you know, having anal sex and things like that. Because, like, any straight men that are listening to this, like, if you have never had anal sex, you're missing out, like, on, like, a yemenite, completely different orgasm than you might have just from penetrating your penis. It's just very different. Right. And I think it's. I'm so grateful that I was brought to reducing the shame of having that and now being able to connect with all parts of my body and all erogenous zones and being able to play with that. I think it's really important. Yeah. And then just dating men, like, there's something about, like, again, like two. Two men coming together. They've had this wound, they've had these experiences around being gay. And we're sharing in that wound. Can it create a whole bunch of stuff and drama? Yeah. But when once they're. Two gay men have come and they're. They're more actualized and they've healed these parts of themselves. Like, it can lead to a ton of beautiful intimacy and connection because of a lot of the sameness. Right? So, yeah, I think, again, like Reno, I could go on and list a bunch of different things. Little nuances, like sharing wardrobe. When you. When you date a guy and they're, you know, you're same size and you can, you basically start dating and you've doubled your wardrobe. That's definitely a nice perk to being gay as well. Yeah.
• 27:54
  Speaker A: I gotta say, guys, your two shares are making me horny.
• 27:58
  Speaker C: Oh, okay.
• 27:59
  Speaker A: You know, coming in your anus, and Matt's whole about, you know, anal sex and orgasms, I'm like, jesus. Okay, I agree. I don't. I guess I don't need to go into that, but I would agree. That's definitely one of mine. But you guys have said, uh, you've done a good job, a good sales job on. On anal and gay sex.
• 28:16
  Speaker C: I mean, you could keep going.
• 28:17
  Speaker A: No, I mean, I could. I might. I might get us into the gutter. Which enough time there. I don't need to take it here. Um, yeah, I. I kind of looked at this a little bit in a slightly different way, I think now that I'm looking at what I want to say, I'm taking the parts of gay culture, the gay community macro, that I really feel proud of and very much feel that is very much me. So it's authentically me and also part of the gay community. So I did a post on Instagram last year called seven reasons why I love being gay. So I'm not going to name all seven, but I've chosen three of those seven reasons that I want to share with you guys here today. Okay. They are courage, defiance, and perseverance, and I'll explain them each. Okay. Courage for sure. Because coming out is one of the greatest acts of courage, in my opinion, to stand out as authentically you in the face of discrimination and rejection and homophobia is incredibly brave. So if you viewer listener, have ever come up to someone, I never, ever want you to doubt for a second that you are brave and courageous. You don't need to convince yourself of that fact. It is a fact. You are courageous. And so I think anyone who is part of the LGBTQIA two s community can very, very validly put the word courageous after their name. Okay, so that's a big one. Number two was defiance. And we kind of talked about this a little bit, but I love that the queer community just gets to push boundaries on everything, especially sex, relationship, and gender roles. And Reno touched on this, as well. And I love that simply by existing. Simply by existing. We have been rebelling against the status quo for centuries, and I, too, love to rebel against the status quo. I love to subvert the culture a little bit, and I get such a kick out of that. So, for me, I feel like, yes, like, sign me up for that community. I'm all about it. And the third thing is perseverance. And so another thing that I am is, some might say, stubborn. I like to use the word determined, and I believe that our ancestors are, as well. So, unlike our hetero friends who we love, uh, we didn't have basic rights for, you know, most of history, and a lot of us still don't. To this day, in this very country, we still do not have those basic rights. And yet, queer people have endured through the centuries, through the millennia. And not only have we survived, we have thrived. And that fight is still alive in me. I don't know if it's from a past life, but when I start thinking about it and talking about it I get really passionate in my blood that we have fought to be here, and we cannot forget that those rights can be taken away at any moment by a select few individuals. And in that case, my friends, they are not rights, they are privileges. And we have to be very careful not to get complacent. And I say that now, in 2024, even in Canada and in the US and wherever our listeners are, we cannot get complacent. Okay? We stand, I stand, all of us stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. And so that makes me very proud and very honored, and that is infused in the work that I do. We probably could not be here having this podcast, even just a few decades ago, this would not be a thing. So that is something that I'm very, very proud of and I will never forget. So those are my three. But I mean, I really want to take out a page out of your books and talk about the fun stuff like sex and partying and disco and all the things that are, sure, maybe more superficial, yes. But a big part of me is very much of that as well. Maybe less now. But I still love it and I'm still super campy and I love to do that. I want to honor that part of me as well. So thank you for giving me permission to also enjoy that, that part of my gayness.
• 32:15
  Speaker C: I love that word, campy. That's so good. And it's so you.
• 32:20
  Speaker A: Yeah. And we can be both, right? Like, you know, you can. We can have these deep conversations and also love a little casual sex moment here and there.
• 32:30
  Speaker C: Pete's.
• 32:31
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 32:32
  Speaker A: Okay, guys, let's talk about how that relationship has changed. So, I don't know about you, but for me, like I said in the beginning, it surely wasn't always the case. So, um, how has your relationship with your gayness evolved over the years? Marina?
• 32:47
  Speaker C: Well, there. So I'm going to answer the question, and there's one thing I want to say that I thought of while you're speaking, Michael, and I really want to point to. I riffed on it a little bit already. So this is like spiritual Reno coming in. Imagine, I that the end game here on planet earth is love, right? Like, that's the end game. That's what we're all moving toward now. Imagine, in service to that endgame, the intelligence that is life sends in Matt and Michael and Reno and everyone else in the queer community as an umbrella terminal and goes, okay, like, this is going to progress the evolution and this ultimate journey in the direction of love. How? By putting these unique individuals who do not fit the status quo, who do not fit the mold but break it, challenge it, and I. And invite us to live beyond it and love beyond it and be beyond it. We're going to introduce them to the population, to the planet, right? And they're going to challenge it. They're going to challenge the whole thing. Some people are going to go gently and happily, and others are going to go kicking and screaming, but regardless, that's where we're going to. That's how I look at. That's how I look at this experience. That's how I look at what we're. What we're here for and what we're up to here. And as you said, simply by being ourselves, like, that's it. You know? That's it. Um, I love that. So thank you. I just had to say that, like, we're a gift. You know? We're a gift. We're not a curse. We're a gift. You are a gift. It is a gift. Yeah. And so I didn't start out feeling that way. I didn't start out feeling that way. It felt more like a curse. A lot of confusion. What's wrong with me? Why am I this way? What is this about? I wish I were different, you know? I wish I were more like everybody else. I wish my voice didn't sound the way it did, or I wish I wanted to wear the clothes that all the other boys did, or when we went shopping for Halloween costumes, I wasn't looking at, like, the girls costumes, you know, I wish I didn't like the music I liked. Like, there was a lot of that. Just wanting to be this completely different person and really hoping that there was some way to reject who I was while simultaneously living it out in private. I'd go to grandma's on the weekend, and she was such a supporter of my authenticity. She's like, I'll keep your dolls here. You can play in my jewelry box. You can wear my heels. You can eat the food you want, listen to the music you want, watch first wives club. And. And death becomes her till your eyeballs fall out. Like, all of it, you know? She was just like, I'm here for my gay grandson, right? And I loved it. It was such a sanctuary for me. So I was living this double life for quite a while, and then even as I moved into my teenage years, I was living in a rural town an hour north of a city that is progressing and also conservative in its own way. And, you know, and so to move to this town, it's like. Again, it was. It came with its challenges. You know, I was. We talked about minority stress. It was like, you know, this closeted, gay black man and the only one in my high school, right? So. And the beautiful thing about my gayness is that it, like, it couldn't help itself. It couldn't be helped. Like, it would always find a way to come through. Oh, my God. So, like, in these little. There'd be, like, I watched save the last dance and then pulled up tight black shirt out of my mom's closet that she let me have and, like, cut the sleeves off of it and made, like, armbands out of the sleeves, and it was, like, the sleeveless shirt, super gay, and wore it to school but under a hoodie, you know, under a hoodie. And then, like, by the afternoon, after lunchtime, I had the courage to finally take the hoodie off and wear it for, like, a little bit, you know, and then kind of hide it again. But there was a lot of that and just this double life, and. And then eventually, I just got tired, and I told one person, and she loved me still, and I knew she would, regardless, and that was enough for me. If she loved me and nobody else did, that was good. And that was the beginning. That was the beginning, you know, and cut to today and everything I just shared about being a gay person and how I perceive it. I mean, gosh, I've come such a long way to go from viewing this experience as a curse to an absolute blessing and gift to myself. And not just myself, but the larger population, the collective consciousness. Like, oh, my God, that's, like, you know, a 180. So, yeah, I could say more, but I think I'll leave it there and just, like, say it loud. I'm gay, and I'm proud.
• 39:00
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:02
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 39:03
  Speaker A: I've never thought about your gayness so much, Reno.
• 39:07
  Speaker C: Yeah, no, me neither.
• 39:13
  Speaker B: I love it. It was just. It just made me think. You made me think of something, Reno, because you're like, I cut off the sleeves of this shirt, and I. It was so gay. And I'm wondering, like, the use of that word, like, growing up, it was like, gay was, like. Used to be like, oh, that's so gay. That's so, like, you know, that's so stupid or whatever. And, like, you know, that we. We attach this word gay to mean so many different things. You know what I mean?
• 39:35
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 39:36
  Speaker B: And oftentimes, they. Their connotation is, like, negative. Right. And I wonder if that contributes to people staying in the closet and not wanting to identify with that term, right. Or even queer. When. When I was younger, the word queer did not mean what it means now. And so, like, to, you know, even just thinking about, like, what else could that be to cut off the, you know, like, how did you feel in that moment? What was it like? Sexy.
• 40:00
  Speaker C: You know what I mean?
• 40:00
  Speaker B: Like, oh, I felt sexy. And then we're making that mean gay. Because for me, it's like, gay could mean so many things. Like me, it could mean having sex with a guy. It could mean super butch. It could mean this or that, right? So it's just so interesting how human beings like the words that we choose and how we grab on to these things. And I guess the lesson for me in hearing you say that is to like, and for the listener, if you're somebody that's, like, closeted, you're not out yet and you're having a hard time making peace with that word gay, make it mean whatever you want it to mean, right? Like, there's so many ways that we could define it. Like, even today, we're all listing off different things that mean different things to us. So, anyways, I just wanted to share that because you made me think about that.
• 40:43
  Speaker C: That's so good. Thank you.
• 40:46
  Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like I kind of answered this question a little bit when I first answered, but, yeah. What? Can you ask the question again, Michael?
• 40:57
  Speaker A: How has your relationship with your gayness evolved over the years?
• 41:01
  Speaker B: Okay, how is my relationship with my gayness evolved over the years? Geeze. Well, I found me. I found me, like, not like who I thought I had to be or how I felt like I had to fit into going to gay bars and drinking and partying and doing all these things. Like, I found me, like, who I am and the type of gay man that I want to be. And it's a whole lot less than. I don't attribute things to gay anymore. It's just like, I'm a gay man and I have sex with men, and everything else about me is just Matt, you know what I mean? Like, I've really gotten to that place now where I'm not. I don't need to grab onto stereotypes or. Or things for identity because I'm very comfortable with being the identity that just. That I am. And that's constantly changing too. Like, it's not like I grab onto this identity and it stays the same forever. Like, there's even a part of me that's, like, becoming, connecting more to, like, my performer side, right? And some people might say that's your gay side, the part of you that wants to get up and perform, you know? But for me, it's not. That's the performer. It has nothing to do with being gay. So I think, yeah, for me, I've just become more comfortable in being that. And I remember, I love this defiance, Michael, because that's how I came out. I came out because I was like, fuck you. Fuck you all. I'm going to come out and I'm going to just be gay. And I remember telling my hockey teams when I was playing hockey growing up, and it was all straight hockey guys who I thought were all straight. Maybe they weren't. And when I got into my early twenties, I started coming out on my hockey teams, and I would just sit back and I would observe the changes in people when I would tell them that, right? Like, they wouldn't take off their underwear in front of me or they would turn when they were changing. And, like, I just noticed how these changes started happening, and. And I just started making peace with it. And I would. I connected with the anger around that that I had right when I was younger, I was really angry about this. And I think, you know, the velvet rage, like, that's what Alan Downs is talking about, the rage that we have inside of us as gay men, that we have been treated differently, right? And some of us suppress it, and we show the velvet. Some of us show the rage, right? And I think that part of me, I have. I have those parts. But the rage inside of me is, like, it's not really there anymore. Like, there's passion, for sure, around, like, wanting to continue, like you said, like, we can't get complacent because, you know, we've etched our place. And I think the LGBTQ movement has been one of, if not the most successful, like, whatever you call it. Like, civil rights movements or whatever you want to call it, or human rights movements, we'll even call it. So I think it's important to stay in that place. But there's also this part of me that. And I'm still making peace with this piece, which is the community doesn't feel like mine, you know what I mean? At least not in the way that other people maybe look at it and say, oh, the gay community. I think part of it is etching my place in that, but I just don't feel like I really fit into that, which is why I started the brotherhood and wanted to create a new kind of gay community that feels more like me. And what the people that I want to relate with, I think. But that's. That, for me, that's no different than you look at hetero communities. There's the same thing. You're going to have pockets of things that you want to move towards or whatever. So I think it just happens to be that I really want to empower people to bring their most authentic expression into even our community. Right. And find what it is that, you know, find the type of gay man that you are and nothing, you know, come in and buy on to these things or these stereotypes that we feel like we have to become. So there's. There's still a piece that I don't even know if it's reconciling it, because it's not like, it's not like, for me that there's. There's any sort of, like, triggers around it. It's more so, like that. It's. I just want more. I think that's the thing. I want more from the. The gay community experience. But as far as, like, me and my own gayness and my relationship to my gayness, I think it's, like, very. Yeah, I feel pretty secure about it, and I actually love coming out now because I'm just so at ease and confident with it that it's, like, I don't even think about that. It's about, like, it's a negative thing to be gay anymore that I love seeing people's reactions and, you know, I kind of just. I don't know. It's just exciting for me. Like, yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So I've come a long way now that I think about it. Like, it's cool to have these moments of reflection, because it's like, you know, I remember when I was probably 13, I knew I was gay when I was five, and when I was about 13, I was really struggling with it. And I remember I would, like, pray that I would, like, wake up the next morning and be straight. Like, I hated myself. I hated my gayness. And so now, however many years later, 25 years later, I'm like, yeah, I want to incarnate in my next life as a gay man.
• 46:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's the best.
• 46:21
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, it is the best.
• 46:23
  Speaker A: And now. Now it is. Now it is. Wasn't always.
• 46:24
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 46:27
  Speaker A: Rena, were you gonna say something?
• 46:28
  Speaker C: Oh, just that Matt sounds really comfortable in his gayness, is what I'm hearing.
• 46:33
  Speaker B: Yes, very comfortable.
• 46:34
  Speaker A: Very comfortable in our gaynesses. Okay. How has my relationship with my. With my gayness evolved over the years? Yeah. I mean, there's so many ways there's so many ways. And, I mean, I could sit here and talk about this for a long time, but I think there's two that when I look at it overall, look at my journey overall, and you've both touched on them a little bit, so I'll just go a little bit deeper. The turning point for me was a light bulb moment when I realized that being gay is not my full identity. It is just a part of me, and one that I love very much, by the way. But as much as it is a wonderful part of who I am, I am not defined by it. And that was a big moment for me. Um, and so, at the same time, it's not something that I need to prove. It's who I am. I don't need to prove who I am. Right? Just like I don't need to prove anything, like that I'm a canadian or that I'm a man or that I'm white. I don't need to prove any of that stuff. It's just who I am. So, you know, I don't believe in the too gay or not gay enough. I know a lot of people do. But once I. Once I had that connection, that's when I dropped the two gay. Not gay enough. I'm like, wait, there's no such thing. That's just. I am who I am. I'm just Michael, take it or leave it. And that sense of ownership. And really, like, when I say owning it, I mean, like, owning it, like, it's inside of me and not something I can separate from myself. Like, that. That kind of way, uh, owning the kind of gay I am. Right. So, similar to what you or Hud said, matt. Like, yes, I'm very sexual. Absolutely. And, yes, I'm also very deep, spiritual, and soulful. And I can. And that's allowed. And I'm also sometimes very shallow and a little bit vain, but I'm also very deep and not so shallow. Right. I can be conventional in many ways and also unconventional. And I love all of that. I love that. That is my unique flavor. If you think about, like, a soup and you put all the different flavors in a soup, no person's soup is going to taste the same if we are all using our own flavors and our own spices, some of which we use, some of which we don't. And so that part really allowed me to make it my own. And again, it was like, oh, okay. This isn't like my entire identity. It's just one little. One little piece of me. And I can choose how much I want to interact with it as much as I want or as little as I want. So that was one. And then the second piece is community, finding my people. So similarly, just like I made my identity my own, I kind of made my community my own. Similar to what we're talking about with the brotherhood, right? Like, if it's not out there, then let's just create it. But also knowing that that is not, like, a homogenous thing. I like communities that are diverse. I like communities where there's a little bit of rough around the edges. I like where there's a little bit of conflict in there because we can learn from each other that diversity allows us to learn, grow, evolve. And so I don't want a homogenized gay community. And that's why I love this community, because it's sort of same thing as you. Like, the thing that I didn't see that I thought was missing. So I was like, okay, well, let's do this. Let's create it. Let's have this podcast, let's build this community. And having those allies as well is really helpful. So, for me, there's a clear line between being in the closet and then being out a little bit in where I went to university, which was like a small town, and then moving to Toronto, where I live now, and that was like swinging the doors wide open. Scary, very exciting moment. And just being exposed to it. And not all of it was good. I'm not going to glorify it and romanticize it. Some of it was wonderful, and there was a lot that was not so great and still isn't, by the way. Um, but I was scared. And as I've said earlier, I know that I'm very courageous. So, um, sticking with it and just being exposed to other people, even if their experiences were different, really helped me develop empathy and understanding for them and also for myself. Uh, allowing myself to belong also really helped me. So, you know, before that, before that line in the sand, my urge was hide, stay small, don't be seen, and just kind of go about your daily business without shedding too much light on yourself. Now it's like, well, here's, here's, here's who I am. Take it or leave it. And if you want to engage with me, great. Happy to have you. If not, have a wonderful life. And that is so liberating. Such a nice, wonderful place to be when it comes to my identity and my gayness.
• 50:52
  Speaker C: That's beautiful.
• 50:55
  Speaker A: Can I ask a question about. About what you had said, matt, about the community and how you still feel like it's a piece that's missing. Do you not feel that, though, that through what we've built and all the, you know, the facilitation we've done, that those people are, like, responding to the call and that you feel like they are part of your community?
• 51:14
  Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. And I think that's the biggest thing. Like, it's been such a beautiful, like, that's why in the last four years, I've done so much healing when it comes to relational healing. Like, I think I got to a place where I was lonely wolf energy, and then for these four years have put me into community, relational healing, which has been like a game changer for me. I hit a ceiling. You can only go so far in isolation healing. You have to start relationally moving into connection. But, yeah, I think it's there. But my thing is that I want more of that in person. I'm just kind of. I'm exhausted by the online stuff. Right. Like, I'm wanting more in person community and. And whatnot, so. But, yeah, it's there, and I can tap into it and I can jump on calls with people and. And have deep, meaningful conversations. It's. It's definitely there. Yeah.
• 52:03
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's one.
• 52:05
  Speaker B: I think the biggest thing for me is that the community that, you know, if you were to go around and ask people on the streets and survey them, like, what do you think a gay man is? It's. It's like, it's. Because our culture has been. We throw this. This thing forward of this stereotype, right, of, like, the pride parties and these sorts of things. Like, that is what people think gay people are. And I think that's what I have a bit of beef with, because there's so much more to us than just that. And it's just. It kind of exhausts me, like, feeling, having to constantly be, like, not fighting against because I don't put that much energy towards it, but, like, trying to change that. We're more than just, like, what we put forward, which I think a lot of people that don't know who we are and are ignorant think we're a bunch of sexual deviants because of the. What we. What we put forward, right. But they don't see behind the scenes that we're like, we are healers and we are deep and we have spirit, you know, spiritual parts of us and stuff. So I just.
• 52:59
  Speaker C: And we're also sexual deviants.
• 53:01
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 53:03
  Speaker B: I wouldn't say we're sexual deviants.
• 53:05
  Speaker C: Well, not deviants.
• 53:07
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we can be both. You know what I mean? But if we're only ever putting forward one image, like, I think it's.
• 53:13
  Speaker C: It's.
• 53:14
  Speaker B: It can be. Yeah, it's.
• 53:17
  Speaker A: And that's. That's the name of this podcast, gay men going deeper. Because, yes, we can play, as we say, we can play in that shallow end all day long. That's great, and that's fun. But also, we love to go deeper. And I don't think at the time that we. This podcast was created, there wasn't a lot of that going on. And so that's why we're here. We're here to show other gay men, queer people, everyone, really, that we can go deeper. And it's not just that, although that is fine, but we have so much more to offer the world.
• 53:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 53:46
  Speaker C: And I love that from your pain came purpose and progress. You know, like, that's amazing to me that there was this. There was this pain, there was this feeling of lack, like something's missing. And then you, like, you know, and then it was created and brought to life, you know, I think that that's a really special thing, and I can definitely relate to that. It's funny you brought this up too, Matt, because this morning I was kind of thinking about you as we were coming into this podcast. And I think one of the things that maybe I feel I have in common with you is feeling kind of like this lone wolf. Like, I can move in and out of communities and spaces, but I've always kind of felt like I've traveled alone, essentially, and, you know, and there's this sense of sort of looking for my, like, where my. Where my people? Where's my community? And they're kind of peppered everywhere, but not in one specific space, you know? So I love what you said here, and I can definitely relate in my own way.
• 54:56
  Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I think my lone wolf side is more attributed to my HSP, my high sensitivity, because I find being around people can be, like, overstimulating. So the gay piece probably is in there, but I would say, like 20%, maybe the other 80 would be like, just being. My nervous system is very sensitive to people, to energies, to loud sounds and things. So it's like if my nervous system's high in high stimulation, I gotta be alone, which I'm pretty comfortable alone, actually. That's one of the. Again, the silver linings of having that is I'm quite content being in solitude on my own.
• 55:35
  Speaker A: Before we wrap up, guys, do you have any last words on your gayness?
• 55:41
  Speaker C: Maybe just one. I would say to anyone who's listening to this episode right now and who's still in the midst of struggling with their relationship to being gay, I would say, or just to their, like, their self and the journey to authenticity, I would say, welcome your experience. You know, welcome your experience. Approach it with curiosity and compassion and welcoming, and let it inform you, let it guide you, let it support you and heal you. We sit here today doing what we do week in and week out as a result of, what's the word I'm looking for, allowing our experience, reconciling with it, and then from that reconciliation, allowing it to galvanize us to create something, to share a message, to share wisdom, to share stories and experiences. So while it may seem really difficult right now, and certainly we empathize with you to sound cliche, it does get better. And my hope is that it does for everyone. I know that's not everyone's story. I understand that. And also my hope and my wish for you is that if you're listening, we are an example of the better that it can be.
• 57:25
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I think for me, I would just say, yeah, be influenced by your gayness, but don't be defined by it. Let it influence you and celebrate it. But it doesn't have to be the entirety of your being. Yeah.
• 57:48
  Speaker A: I would. I wasn't gonna say anything, but then I got inspired, as I do often by you guys. And the other thing is, you know, we're not sitting here saying that our way is the way or the only way. What, what I want our viewers and listeners of this podcast to get out of this is like, looking at it and taking what resonates and being, oh, I can relate to that. And if anything, just let, like, you get to define your own experience, as we said. And so just make whatever flavor of soup of gay, gay man you want to be or queer person you want to be. So it's not about like, oh, you have to do it this way and you have to go to that and you have to do that. Just drop all that take. When it comes to gay culture and the quintessential things that we see in the media, literally, I look at it like a recipe and I'm like, I want this one and I want this one, and I like this one. The rest of it, not for me. I'm going to take disco balls and I'm going to take, you know, dancing and I'm going to take Lady Gaga and I'm going to put that in my soup. But the rest of it maybe not so much. And so do that by it. Right? It's. You don't have to follow a formula. You get to kind of make your own.
• 58:50
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 58:51
  Speaker A: Yeah. That's the beauty of it. Wow. Can we name that? Can we name that? This episode?
• 58:59
  Speaker B: Everybody's gayness tastes different.
• 59:02
  Speaker A: Okay, guys, 200 episodes, though this is incredible. For those of you who are listening and watching again, please give us a rating and a review. Even if this is just the first one or whether it's the 200th one, if you listen to all of them, please do let us know. We'd love to hear from you. Leave some comments on YouTube, make sure you like, and subscribe. And please, please join us in the gay men's brotherhood for our events. We have the sharing circles and the connection circles. This is not just a podcast. This is a community. And the podcast is just a piece of that community. We are here with a bigger movement to inspire a different kind of gig community. And we welcome you to join us. All right, guys, thank you so much, and we'll see you on episode 201 next week. Bye.