Latest / Callum Walker | Figuring It Out / #70 - [Special Guest Cath Reohorn] - Marketing Without the BS: Your Biggest Marketing Advantage Revealed (And How To Use It)

Transcript

#70 - [Special Guest Cath Reohorn] - Marketing Without the BS: Your Biggest Marketing Advantage Revealed (And How To Use It) · Callum Walker | Figuring It Out

• 0:03
  Callum Walker: If fear is the only thing stopping us from achieving our dreams and we only fear what we don't understand, then the antidote to fear is knowledge.
• 0:11
  Callum Walker: All we have to do is find out who
• 0:13
  Callum Walker: has the knowledge that we need to conquer our fears and achieve our entrepreneurial dreams. My name is Callum Walker, and welcome to the podcast that will help you figure it out and conquer this lonely entrepreneurial journey.
• 0:27
  Callum Walker: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the podcast. Today is a very special episode because I have a fabulous guest with me today. Kath, how are you?
• 0:39
  Cath Reohorn: I'm well. Thank you so much for having me on.
• 0:42
  Callum Walker: It is an absolute pleasure. Yeah. To be honest, I'm gonna just get straight into this. You know, I think one thing I found whenever I've either listened to podcasts or gone on podcasts before has been kind of and and having guests on. I've almost kinda not really enjoyed as being straight, like, a very boring, like, tell us who you are, introduce you blah blah blah.
• 1:02
  Yeah I think that in all honesty the marketing and the copy of this will probably do that job for us. I think really, Cath, the first thing I'd really like to you know get an idea on is around copywriting and around messaging. I know before I almost kind of like, you know, I've been fascinated with copy for quite some time, but before I kind of like, you know, decided to go down the rabbit hole of actually, yeah, not necessarily educating myself but just learning about what copy is and what it isn't, it was kind of a bit of a scary sort of topic which I very much sort of thought that like was this thing that would always be alien to me. You know I was a coach at the time. You know I knew that you know in terms of the content I was putting out there that it needed to improve.
• 1:48
  And I'd heard about this thing called copywriting and I almost kind of associated it with an image of someone that would be behind a typewriter and writing all of these really kind of weird and wacky things up. So in terms of a misconception of copywriting, if I'm a coach and I know that I kind of need to go down this sort of like journey, what would you say is the main sort of like misconception of what copy really actually is?
• 2:16
  Cath Reohorn: I think the main misconception is that copy is all you need. That you're gonna post one incredible social media post that's gonna transform your business, that you're gonna go viral and suddenly people are gonna be flocking to you and queuing up, and it's not about that at all. In my experience, it's far more important that you see copy as a creating opportunities. So any one thing that you publish on the Internet, whether that's a blog or an ad or a social media post or even a story or a DM, All of those things are opportunities to have conversations with people. So if you were on the gym floor, and that would be saying good morning to the person that walks through the the door, remembering their name, and remembering, you know, you've got a bad shoulder.
• 3:02
  That's the sort of thing that you would do in your copy. So you're trying to create an environment where people have an impression of you, where you control the narrative. You get to influence how they think about you as a coach, as a personal trainer, as a gym owner, as a service provider. And you're doing that either through words that you say or words that you write. And they're just about creating opportunities to speak to people more privately.
• 3:28
  Callum Walker: K. So if you know, so before you're in that sort of like situation, what is life like when you don't have that sort of skill set and that knowledge and understanding of how to be able to utilize your words be able to, whether spoken or written, to be able to create opportunities? What what is life like before, yeah, before you almost kind of acquired that that skill set?
• 3:54
  Cath Reohorn: I think this is a skill set that lots of people have and they just don't realize they've got it. So maybe in the beginning, it might feel like this is something that I have to learn. And it's that I have to get a lot of books on it and I have to seek a course and there's loads of things to do. Until I've got that thing, I'm gonna put off putting myself out there. I'm gonna put off making offers.
• 4:16
  I'm gonna put off talking to my ideal customer. But it's through doing those things that you actually develop those skills and that voice. And if I put you in a room with let's say we were to me and you were gonna go to the cinema and you want to see a particular film and I wanna see a different film. And you're gonna persuade me to watch your film. The things that you would say to me in that scenario is all that happens in copy.
• 4:40
  That is all that your marketing needs to be. You're gonna give me a persuasive argument for why we should do the thing that you wanna do rather than the thing I wanna do. And often, the thing that I wanna do is really good for me, and you're just trying to make me give myself permission to do that. And these skills already exist because you would do it if we were talking. And something happens to people when they think they have to write something down and they get into this weird school mode and they're like I'm not I'm not good at writing or I'm dyslexic or I can't spell or this is a really human thing.
• 5:15
  This hasn't got to be a really formal skill set of writing. I think I'm I don't even think I've got an English GCSE. It was a long time ago. But this is about presenting someone with an argument to do the thing that's good for them. And they kinda wanna do it anyway, you are just facilitating them to give themselves permission lots of the time.
• 5:44
  And it's a very human thing that isn't dependent on being able to type or being able to write or even being able to present on camera. This is just about one person speaking to one other person. And that takes a lot of the pressure off when you think I've gotta, you know, approach people in the gym or I've gotta post on social media or whatever. It can feel quite intimidating. But if you think it's just one person talking to another person about something they probably wanna do anyway, it feels a lot less pressured.
• 6:16
  Callum Walker: Yeah. And do know what? It's interesting in terms of that pressure as well because I think, again, you can get that, like, that that paralysis through the the excessive levels of kinda information that are put your way, you know, whether it's through mentors through social media with their content of saying like, okay, this is how you need to have your DM conversations, this is how you need to structure it, this is how you structure a content post, this is how you do this, this, this. And I guess that when you have different schools of thought together it can be quite paralyzing and it can be quite intimidating. But I think one thing that's kind of helped me around that actually, and which I'd love to hear your take on, is that in terms of just running a business, it's just very much centered around just the quality of your relationships.
• 7:04
  Cath Reohorn: I could not
• 7:04
  Callum Walker: agree more. Just building relationships with people. And I think that one thing that's helped me has been actually noticing what went on in terms of the creation and the building of the good high quality relationships that I have, and then also notice what went on in terms of the quality of the bad relationships that I've had, or the people who I haven't engaged in a relationship with. And I think one thing I really, really liked from what you've just said there is almost like, and what was going through my mind was that, you know, if I'm on the gym floor or if I am, you know, someone to potentially look at, you know, growing my business online, almost kind of just noticing in general what happens in your conversations and what you're doing when you are influencing other individuals, but then also building relationships with people that way, and noticing what's happening, and then almost kind of actually seeing that, yeah, most of the time it's not as intimidating as scary because we've done it beforehand. We can actually do it again, just maybe in a different environment, in a different setting, and maybe using a different vehicle.
• 8:10
  But I think it's really lovely that you've just simplified it down into, you know, what that kind of is and how it can translate into other areas. I saw one of your posts actually, which I really kind of connected with, I wanted to get your, yeah, your, actually just your insight. I'd love to know more about when it happened for you. You'd said that you were having a conversation with, I believe it was a coach or it might have been a consultant, And they basically had this throwaway comment of, oh, know, when I did, I actually had someone who had an audience of was it 70,000, I think? Had an audience of 70,000 in terms of the traffic that was coming to them, and it went down to 1,000.
• 8:51
  And you know, I managed to be able to actually kind of level that up and make the machine to the money. And it was almost like this throwaway comment, and you put that saying, that's your thing. I'd love to really kind of know for yourself, like, what? Did you have a similar sort of moment like that that almost kind of like sprung you down the rabbit hole of copywriting?
• 9:14
  Cath Reohorn: That's a great question. It's hard to reflect on your own journey like that sometimes. I think these days I've become known as sort of the the offer person. I think I people come to me and they're like, here's a mishmash of ideas, and I'm just gonna like brain dump at you. And I'll pull together an offer and a price point on a funnel and a launch really out of the back, out of what seems like nothing and that will print cash.
• 9:41
  And that seems to be it now, but in the beginning it was never supposed to be about that for me. My my start in copywriting, I'd never even intended to help other people. This was a skill I wanted to learn for myself. So I was a personal trainer and a gym owner who my gym was barely breaking even. Every month we were like, know, we were okay, but we were never super profitable.
• 10:06
  I was a personal trainer at the same time. I was the most expensive fully booked personal trainer in my gym. I filled up all my one to ones. My classes were packed because I ran them from the principle of fun. This is gonna be better than going home and sitting on your couch in your pajamas, And I love sitting on my couch in my pajamas.
• 10:29
  So we've gotta be having it's gotta be better than that because it's gotta be better than the alternative. So when I filled up my one to ones, I was like, how would you guys feel about doubling up pairs? Fill that up. Threes to fill that up. Until in the end, I was running sessions with about nine people in them, and it was no longer personal training.
• 10:46
  And I was like, but I'm still skint. What am I doing wrong here? Like, there are no more hours. I can't work anymore. So I've I've maxed out my potential in person, and I think it was just because I made people feel safe.
• 11:04
  I just looked like a normal woman. I wasn't, like, super intimidated and I was I met people outside if they told me they were scared and I showed them how to scan in and I was thoughtful about you this is not your place yet, but it's gonna be. And I really only wanted to learn copy initially to take my own business online. I got ill, I had flu. That doesn't sound that ill but I was so ill mate, I was it could be the bed for tea.
• 11:35
  It was so bad like I literally don't think I've ever been so ill in my life. I was ill for two weeks. The whole time I laid in bed and I was like oh my god oh my god oh my god. If I can't get back on the gym floor, I'm I'm scared. I'm I'm burning through savings right now.
• 11:50
  I'm so stressed. And I I was ill. I was too ill to be stressed about stuff like that. So was like, I've gotta find another way. I've gotta find a way that I can leverage my time that doesn't need me to be physically there.
• 12:01
  So copy really was only ever supposed to be for me, and I was supposed to use it to take my own business online. And that was alright. It worked okay. And then COVID happened, and I was like, thank God. You know?
• 12:13
  I'm so grateful that I have developed this tiny little skill. So my first foray into it really for other people, I worked for a guy called Dan. And Dan built people's websites. He built like gym owners websites and personal trainers websites. And my job was to write the content of the website, so blogs and also the copy, so that it would rank on page one of Google.
• 12:36
  That was it. That was my job. Get it on page one. So it was quite technical writing and it was quite fast, But I never intended it to be I always thought I was gonna be the online coach. I thought I that was gonna be me until I realized I'm miles better at this for other people because I can see the value in what they do.
• 12:56
  And I loved it because it meant that I could help more people by helping coaches. I think coaching is one of the most important jobs that anybody can do. I think personal trainers, gym owners, coaches have such a significant impact on the quality of life that people live. I think they are such forces of good, and by helping them, I was able to help thousands more people rather than helping my own clients where I maybe had, you know, perhaps 100 people, that's all I could help. So I loved the idea that I was having a bigger impact because I was able to help the helpers.
• 13:31
  Callum Walker: There's a couple of things on that. So and yeah, I've written a fair few notes down. And I wanna almost kinda like circle back to a point where when you were you were running a gym, you almost kind of like when you articulated that, you were like, people liked me because of well, effectively almost like the relatability side of things. Yeah. And I'm a huge Marvel comic books fan.
• 14:00
  Like huge Marvel comic book fan. And I also really am fascinated in like studying how people became successful and the process by which they almost took people through. And I remember watching a documentary on Stan Lee, who was kind of one of the original guys. If you listen to the podcast, you already know Stan Lee. I've mentioned it that many times.
• 14:24
  But like you know he was almost kind of like the original creator of all of these characters and I remember them talking about when Marvel Comics was in the late 1950s early 1960s and you'll see where I'm kind of going with this and how it relates to what you were talking about. Basically he was talking about how they were just a standard average run of the mill comic book company that were blending in with everyone else. And they actually kind of made this one big change where they started to look at who their audience was and they started to notice that the majority of their audience were actually teenagers, which would make sense that teenagers are reading comic books. And they then looked and said well the majority of our, if not every single one of our superheroes, are adults. So what they did, and it was their biggest, like it was the first time that Marvel Comics actually became like Marvel Comics, they created Spider Man.
• 15:20
  And he was basically saying is that the reason why we created Spider Man was that the problem was with all of our adult superheroes, our audience couldn't actually really kind of relate to the unique problems that that adult was actually experiencing. So again if I kind of look at like Superman or Batman for example, with Superman, like Superman is perfect, he doesn't really have any form of vulnerabilities, he doesn't really have any form of kind of weaknesses apart from some weird stone called kryptonite in the middle of nowhere. Whereas what they said was that like he said that the thing with Spider Man was that you have this person who's a teenage superhero who is experiencing all of the unique challenges that a teenager experiences, you know, constantly letting his friends down, constantly being pulled left, right, and center, chasing girls, getting nowhere, lost his place in this life, yet still manages to achieve extraordinary things. And to the point that, like, know, in terms of for myself, like, my desk is literally just, like, covered with, like, spiral shit everywhere. Because it was almost like I think the reason why I kind of bring it up was that one of my favorite books that helped me with my messaging was Donald Miller's book Building a Story Brand.
• 16:28
  And he spoke about when you're positioning yourself as the guide almost like this authority and this empathy. And I think when you were talking about like, you know, with the people in your gym that made you attract, like that were almost kind of attracted to you, said that you're like, you know, I was just a normal person that someone could come towards. That is a real kind of unique sort of, not necessarily skill set, what am I trying to get at here? I almost kind of find it really amazing that that was the thing. And I guess my question to you is in terms of whether it's vulnerabilities or almost kind of like weaknesses that we may potentially perceive, how can we almost kind of begin to take those steps to actually almost like take our, you know, the things that we may see as, you know, being things that could repel people that would actually attract them?
• 17:15
  Does that make sense? I don't know if I've articulated my question particularly well.
• 17:18
  Cath Reohorn: That's a great question. And I love the reference to Marvel because I was actually thinking about this the other day. I'm weirdly, I'm reading Building a StoryBrand right now. So that sense of look at that. It's meant to be.
• 17:27
  Right? So the DC comics where the people are born incredible, or they've got this incredible start, like they're millionaires or billionaires or whatever like Batman, versus the Marvel comics where they're just regular people who become great. I
• 17:43
  Callum Walker: think Diversity. Yeah.
• 17:44
  Cath Reohorn: Right. Exactly. Yeah. So when it comes to the things that you think are weaknesses or vulnerabilities, the first thing I would say is that most of the things that make you, when you think about your business, the things that really genuinely make you feel vulnerable are often things that you can't work on fast enough. Right?
• 18:05
  So you like, I'm a beginner. You can't stop being a beginner overnight or I'm, you know, I'm just a regular looking woman who's a PT in the gym. I'm not gonna become incredible shape overnight. So the things that you maybe are are working on, like your expertise, like the way that you show up, those are skills, and you don't develop skills immediately. So there's no point raging against that.
• 18:36
  It's pointless because you can't do anything about it anyway. So, really, you've got no choice but to own it, and the audience doesn't expect you to do anything but own it. And when you try to avoid it and you you position yourself as maybe more expert than you are or that you're in better shape than you are or whatever it is, it is so repellent to be something that you're not because it makes everyone feel uncomfortable. There is something psychologically. My background before I was personal trainer was a psychologist for twelve years.
• 19:08
  So there is something so repellent about somebody being something that they're not because it feels like pretend, and it's uncomfortable. So whatever it is that you are, the more you completely fully own it, the more it makes everyone around you at ease because it means that they don't have to perform. It doesn't feel like a performative pretend situation. And the best way that I can describe this is you know when you were a kid and you were in school and maybe the teacher asks for a volunteer and everyone's like, please not me, please not me, please not me. And then someone, some glorious superhero emerges from the crowd and they're like I will go first.
• 19:54
  And you're like yes, I'm so behind that guy like yes, like go first black guy. And like and but it's relief. In part it's relief and in part it's now I feel like I can as well. So when somebody's willing to endure being seen, to go first, to be vulnerable, to be honest, to be real, to be authentic, whatever the quality is that you're trying to embody. When you are willing to do that, you make people feel so safe because it gives them implicit permission to do the same.
• 20:27
  And ultimately if you are in a helping profession that is at the absolute heart and soul of what you're what you're trying to connect to all of the time. People want permission to be themselves. They wanna be honest to themselves, and they want to be accepted through that. And the first and most sincere way that any of us can do that is by enduring being truly seen.
• 20:52
  Callum Walker: So logically, and I got a couple of questions on that. Logically, you know, I can hear that and I'm like, yeah I'm 100% all for that and then automatically then my subconscious reveals three things fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of criticism. So how have you managed yourself if those fears kind of like spring to light when you are almost kind of like opening yourself up? So again, if I kind of come back to when you decided to almost like go, do you know what, I'm gonna move out of the identity of the personal trainer into the writer, surely those fears must have presented themselves. And then logically knowing that right you know I just need to own it, know yeah you know it's my superhero etc.
• 21:43
  How do you emotionally always kind of take the first step so to speak to ensure that those fears, with it being fear of rejection in terms of like I'm putting myself out there, and I guess that ties in with the criticism side of things, You know if I'm going down this angle of really revealing myself you know I'm going to get criticized. I could get further rejected from my audience and also it could fail. How have you emotionally been able to almost kind of maybe dissipate yourself? Not dissipate, detach yourself from those fears to be able to go, I'm gonna own it and I'm gonna be that guy. How have you managed to do that?
• 22:22
  Cath Reohorn: That is a phenomenally high quality question. I would actually say that's probably one of the best questions I've ever been asked on a podcast. That's a big question. The truth is, I'm gonna talk about this purely from my own experience because I have had a number of sort of like label changes, identity changes when I was I left teaching and I was a psychologist and I moved into being a personal trainer. Then I moved into being a writer, then I moved into you know marketing more broadly.
• 22:55
  The thing I did that helped me move from being a personal trainer or a coach into being a writer was that I used language to talk about it that I felt comfortable with. So I used words to simply describe what I was doing. So I would think about it as I'm a writer because I write. Like a personal trainer would say if you run you're a runner. Right?
• 23:21
  While you are running, you are a runner. That's true. That's factual. Right? So I would it it helped to take some of the emotion out of it because I was talking about something that was literally factually true.
• 23:32
  I am doing this every day. That helped. The next thing that I did that helped was that I actually said those words out loud privately to myself when I was on my own. So I would start I I didn't do this at first in a public way. I I would say I'm I remember the first time I said the words I'm a copywriter and I was on my own and I said them out loud and I felt very alien.
• 23:57
  So I practiced saying that out loud by myself for maybe a week or so until it stopped feeling quite so weird. Then I would refer to myself as a copywriter with a very small number of people who I trusted, who knew that I was writing. It was made more complicated for me because I was hiding the fact that I was a copywriter. This is a weird twist of my story, because I was trying to also be a coach at the same time. I thought it would really dilute my message and confuse my audience if I was talking about copyright at the same time.
• 24:28
  So I didn't publicly talk about the copyright inside at all. I kept it a bit of a secret. So I talked about it offline with my family and friends, but I didn't do that publicly. And the first day that I did do that publicly and I revealed that I had been doing this other job, which I didn't do until my writing was incredibly stable and was bringing in at that time approximately 10 times what my coaching was. I was like, I'm gonna just have to get rid of coaching.
• 24:59
  I can't keep doing this. At the first day, I said, I've got I've got this secret. I've been doing something that you guys don't know about. Typical copyrights. Alright?
• 25:10
  I had so many inbound messages to get hired. I had so many inbound messages.
• 25:15
  Callum Walker: Just makes it so funny. Like, just in terms of copywriting, the amount of times I've seen, like, Russell Brunson's offers with, you know, this new secret, like yeah. Sorry. I found that really funny.
• 25:27
  Cath Reohorn: You can choose anything. Yeah. I know it it doesn't sound enough, but I I have genuinely been keeping it. And I and I put I published about it, and I had so many people message me to ask for me to hire me that it actually crashed my laptop. So I felt like I had taken this like little bold step and I had loads of positive reinforcement.
• 25:49
  So I felt safe to do that then. But I didn't do it all in one big reveal. Think I would feel more comfortable with my identity now. And what I've learned since is involved with not tying your identity to your job title and your identity is better placed in terms of I am a person with integrity or I you know, some other quality which is a permanent quality. But at the time, that language was complicated and it did take a little bit of work for me.
• 26:17
  Callum Walker: Yeah, because it's that, you know, your professional identity is an extension of You know, again, like like I said, I think that the relationship with that probably comes with time and with experience. Yeah, think that's fascinating as well. It's amazing that you and also really inspiring for people as well because I guess as well especially like with now with it's social media marketing or whatever there's a lot more kind of connection around there's a lot of connection between you and as an individual and you're sharing a lot of your lifestyle, you're sharing a lot of your life, you're sharing a lot of your own thoughts. So it's almost like you know if you are kind of changing a direction so to speak. Was that hard to keep that a secret?
• 27:07
  Like was it, you know, how did you kind of keep the two up in terms of like, or did you keep the two up, the one up in terms of like, you know, the fitness sort of space, and then also how almost kind of manage that from a capacity perspective in your mind?
• 27:23
  Cath Reohorn: It was tough. Like my coaching online was quite leveraged. This was at lockdown, so I didn't have to show up and be this person in real life. Yeah. So gym closed in March 2020, and I first got paid to write in February 2020.
• 27:38
  Okay. So I was still new and write in. I still try to do both until around about August year. There was a brief period of time where gyms reopened and I went back to the gym I used to own and I sort of PT there for a while. And I was like every hour that I'm here is costing me so much money.
• 27:57
  Like this is such a ridiculous decision to make. Like it's not it was an illogical decision at that point. So I stepped back from coaching. But what made it difficult was because my clients had stayed with me through lockdown, I felt like I owed them and I felt like I had an emotional duty of care because they had supported me emotionally and financially, obviously, during the online period. Yep.
• 28:22
  So I really wrestled it. I felt like I was abandoning them. I felt like I was the worst person. I felt like I was like I felt guilty that I was chasing money. I felt ashamed that they had supported me and now I was withdrawing support from them.
• 28:42
  I knew that they were not in a position to return to gyms yet. I had asked them that, and I was like, would you intend to go back in person? And they were like, no. Even if they had said yes, I would I didn't wanna go back in person. And I really felt a lot of internal conflict about the decision that I had to make.
• 29:03
  Mhmm. And then so that was sort of maybe the August or September, and then we had a situation at home that required me to be more involved in a family capacity. And I then then it became there is no choice here. You you can't be one foot in, one foot out. So I spoke to them and I I told them the truth.
• 29:25
  Was like, feel absolutely terrible about this. I feel like you supported me. This is always my technique with anything. Be as completely honest and transparent as you possibly can. I'm too neurodivergent for anything even remotely manipulative or like dishonest.
• 29:41
  I'm like here's the entire truth with no hold barred. I'm just like, and and if you hate me that's cool but at least you hate me for the right reasons. So I'm I'm far too autistic to do anything other than just be completely honest with people and genuine. Yeah. Some people hate that.
• 29:59
  Some people find that, I don't know, jarring. I think there's no other way to be. And they were cool about it and in a way that sort of made it harder. They were like you should absolutely pursue this because that's what you would tell us to do. And it was quite a choking moment to know that we liked each other so much on a personal level.
• 30:22
  And this is what you were saying earlier, right, about all of the relationships you have. I don't know how much I buy into this idea that you should separate professional and personal. Because I think when you're just genuinely completely yourself and you genuinely like the people you work with
• 30:36
  Callum Walker: Well, I help them out.
• 30:37
  Cath Reohorn: A 100%. And but that kind of complicates the situation because if I was like some hard nosed business mentor that was only sort of like considering this on a spreadsheet basis, I should have done this ages ago. Like I'm literally being financially irresponsible by not making this decision, but I cared about them. And I still care about them and I think they're fucking cool people and I really like them. And I know that they continue to train and I know that they like I was like I can maybe help you find another person who has got a similar vibe.
• 31:08
  Know, perhaps I can help you to to find the next right person for you. And some of them did and some of them didn't. And I felt guilty that have I stopped their fitness journey somehow? Like have I I truncated their health in some way? And that was all really difficult.
• 31:25
  But they were absolute gems to me about it. I really like them on a fundamentally human level. And I would recommend that you make a point of only working with people. And I would go further actually, I'll go further. I think you have to love your clients.
• 31:42
  Mhmm. Because I think you you fundamentally have got to want the best for each other.
• 31:49
  Callum Walker: So it's interesting you say that as well because again we briefly spoke on Instagram around the hero's journey. I've been fascinated by that. And well Building a Story Brand is a great book with that. But if you almost, and my question to you is, you kind of look at any story, and we're almost kind of living it, we're all living our own story. If you look at any story, how does it end?
• 32:13
  It ends with that transformation. Luke Skywalker doesn't just say the galaxy becomes a Jedi. You know, Frodo, well yeah, Frodo Mordor is the overall kind of transformation at the end. So you kind of mentioned there in terms of like, you know, businessmen could have looked at the things and said he should have done this a long time ago. Internally that kind of articulates to me a very transactional mindset versus a transformational mindset.
• 32:41
  So my question to you is almost that would you say that that intention of keeping that relationship with these people, of really actually giving a full on shit about them and actually caring about them on a deeper level, developing that ultimate trust, Would you now say that that in itself has been integral in the success that you now have? And also in terms of writing proper fucking copy, having that intention from an energetic perspective of that you know this is legitimately trustworthy on delivering a transformation, would you not say that that holding maybe holding on to it for that length of period was actually the thing that was necessary to actually ensure that this becomes a long term thing for you of substance?
• 33:31
  Cath Reohorn: Maybe. I think there is certainly something to be said for big decisions like that. Even if on paper the right answer is obvious, if you need to take time to process the decision, there's nothing inherently wrong with feeling the impact you have on other human beings. If we didn't care about that, why would we why would any of us work in a helping role? And now as kind copy, one of the things that we are bullish on as a business, this is our North Star statement, is that we work in service to the prospect.
• 34:13
  So we work through the court. So our marketing is always, always, always aimed at the recipient of the message. So it's the person reading the copy. It's the person listening to the reel. It's the person who's sitting there, you know, on the on the talk responding to the ad.
• 34:31
  We are talking directly to the people rather than the coach because we believe that we are kind of brokers. We will broker the correct person on their behalf. And I think to do that, you need to have a significant level of empathy for where that person's at and what they need to hear so that they feel safe and they align with the right coach for them. I think there's a right coach out there for everybody. And I think the copy is the vehicle to connect those things.
• 35:07
  Callum Walker: Yeah do you know one of my favorite sayings is almost kind of with copy, have the conversation going on in their head.
• 35:16
  Cath Reohorn: And
• 35:16
  Callum Walker: again, that almost kind of comes down to fully understanding who it is that you're serving on such a deep, deep level. And I do think that like if you don't have a legitimate interest in human beings in terms of how they think, how they operate, and how they behave, with that it must be incredibly difficult to be able to actually get to the emotional aspect of you know what exactly going to drive someone to take that action. So almost like I know for me the more people I've spent time with, I guess you know first of all I've been exposed to more people that I don't want to spend time with, but then also I've been exposed to people that I do want to spend time with. And through that process of elimination and then able to go deeper and deeper into understanding like yes this is the kind of person I can understand what they think and also I think I come back to the Spider Man thing with Marvel Comics it's almost that like again you know he was talking about this where he was just like that the audience can effectively see a portion of themselves in the hero.
• 36:24
  And it's almost that like again, if I look at the clients that I've really connected with myself as a coach and also they've connected with me as a coach, it's almost been that I've seen a portion of myself in them and they've seen a portion of themselves in me and that connection and that ability to understand the real struggle, the real, you know, again, he talks about it in building a story brand, it's not just the surface level of the problem, it's the deeper aspect of things. So if I know within my own message, it's not just about a personal trainer not having the level of knowledge from a nutritional perspective, it's about how that truly makes them feel in terms of they want to be someone of integrity delivering a high quality result. And that doubt and that relentless impostor syndrome really holding them back from being able to actually, you know, put themselves out there constantly and constantly walking around with the weight of this nagging feeling of I'm not good enough because I'm not delivering. I know how that feels because that's how I felt. And I almost kind of feel like a way in which that's kind of helped has been by spending more and more time with people who coaches and seeing that I'm not the only person experiencing this problem and that's increased their desire to want to go and help these people.
• 37:41
  So I guess my question to you on this is that for yourself, when you're selecting the people that you truly want to serve, what's almost kind of like your process of doing that and has that changed over the years?
• 38:01
  Cath Reohorn: Yeah definitely. When I was a personal trainer, I was known for I had a huge like diversity of clients and on like on surface level you think what kind of people do you work with? Like they're all over the place. I had 17 year olds, I had 17 year olds, and they would work together in sessions. I had a stuntman, I had a wrestler, I had a granny.
• 38:25
  Like I had such a broad range of people, but the thing that united all of them was and I'll give it to you in one sentence. I'll have a go. That's it. That's the person I want. So they're not too concerned with looking a bit silly.
• 38:42
  They're quite up for jumping in and having a go at something. They quite like being a beginner. They'd rather stay on in the gym for an extra hour than let their friend train by themselves. They would look up for stuff. They were just well up for it.
• 38:57
  Right? So when I would position my message in person and I was like, it's gonna be fun. You know, James here is an in person wrestler. Does anybody wanna jump in? We're gonna do a max effort sled push and I need extra weight to sit on the sled.
• 39:12
  This is gonna take an entire hour. It's gonna be fun as hell. Who's in? And I had, you know, the whole gym join in. That's sick.
• 39:20
  Like, that's cool. That's a community sense. Right? Mhmm. But if I was I'm like, well, I'm not a wrestler.
• 39:29
  I don't know anything about this, and I was getting myself bent out of shape about who am I to give him advice on this? He doesn't need advice on wrestling, he doesn't need me to know anything about that, I'm not his wrestling coach. I'm here to make sure that we have a good sweaty session and there's loads of fun and his hamstrings are burning and he's made friends and connections in the gym and all these people are gonna now will come and see your show. Right? So that's quite cool.
• 39:53
  Right? That's the thing that we that I would bring to that scenario. Now when you shrink and you won't be yourself, people can't see themselves in you. You're not the lighthouse they need you to be. You as the leader have got to be a lighthouse because I've got to be able to look at all of the things that you're willing to show me and think I see myself in this bit.
• 40:15
  That's all it takes. I just see myself in this bit. And when coaches or personal trainers shrink and they feel like I'm an impostor and I'm not willing to go first, I'm not willing to show all those things, the real risk isn't that your business doesn't grow. The real risk is that the people who you could genuinely help and have a phenomenal lifelong connection with never get to meet you and see you and and experience that. And that is such an absolute tragedy, not because you leave them in pain, but because you've you've robbed them of the fun and cool experiences you guys could have together.
• 40:48
  So one of the things that people struggle with in this, particularly online, is that, oh, I don't know. I'm trying to just educate people in my social media content. I feel silly putting myself out there. I feel I'm a really funny person, but I don't wanna be funny on camera. And I think, the faster you can repel the wrong people and get the right people into your world.
• 41:08
  I know this is easier said than done, but like that is so charming and so magnetic to the right people because it lets them relax. They can self select. They don't have to follow your stuff and the right people will absolutely love it, but they can only love it if you can show them some part of them that they can mirror. So one of the things that makes us different I think is that lots of people talk about, you need to find the pain point and twist it. Twist the knife.
• 41:39
  I hate twist the knife. We never do it under any circumstances. Instead, do we hold up a mirror not just to the pain but to all of those cool personality types, the interest. I already know what a massive nerd you are because you chose to your example was Frodo. So I'm like, I'm well in on this guy like.
• 41:58
  So I know that there's gonna be common ground. I know what things I'm gonna be able to talk to you about. When I was in person, all of my guys could quote eighties action movies. That was practically the interview to get in to get into the crew. Get into show.
• 42:13
  Was your best sliced lawn movie? If you can't give me your best sliced lawn, like, I don't think we're gonna be a vibe. And they knew they were gonna get into. You knew it was gonna be a fun thing. This isn't I'm not gonna be like, you know, we need to prep you when you need to have this many grams of chicken.
• 42:27
  It's not gonna be me. And and
• 42:30
  Callum Walker: And to that
• 42:31
  Cath Reohorn: the whole question, that is the right move to make. But if it's not you, don't try to square peg yourself into being that person because you think that's what's expected of you. Far cooler and far less effort to be what feels right for who And you
• 42:47
  Callum Walker: you know you said something there as well where when you said like you're missing out on the all of the cool stuff that they get to do with you. But I think also for yourself, and this is interesting in terms of creating offers, I think you miss out on the real amazing opportunity to be able to create cool shit for you and just to go like right, if wanted to create whatever it is that I wanted to create, I think that you're missing out on that because you're not giving yourself the license to fully express yourself and express the things that you want to do. And you know it's interesting as well because like I have a members only podcast. So For the guys in my coaching program, I'm a members only podcast. And they know what it is.
• 43:33
  It is literally me going for a walk down my canal. And I'm going for a walk down my canal just like just having a conversation. Like you know whatever is kind of like you know lit me up that one day, you know I've watched a film and I saw that and I saw this and whatever, and like a little lesson that I can kind of share on the podcast. And it's interesting because where I used to live there was a canal, I go down the walk, and there were these ducks and there was this one mother duck and there were these three baby little ducks. And for about, think it was about five podcast episodes, I was walking and every episode I'd stop and fucking wit, I'd talk to the ducks.
• 44:08
  I'm like, I'm literally going like because I could see how they'd like, they'd grown over the weeks. So anyway, point of coming out is about two months later I moved house and I've moved just outside of London to the Birmingham. So I'm not by the canal, I'm not by the ducks. And I had an in person event for my clients. So most of my stuff's online, had an in person event with my clients.
• 44:27
  And three of them come up to me and be like, What about the ducks? What about the ducks? And those sorts of things, I don't know, it took the hardness, the professionalism so to speak, out of the relationship that have with my customers, and it's almost that like I'm able to actually express what it is that I really, really kind of want to talk about. And I guess that when you get to that place, you're not held back. And I think that what people really buy into is enthusiasm and excitement.
• 45:00
  And when you're constantly wearing that mask there's only so much enthusiasm and excitement that you can actually really put out there to the world. So I guess as well like you know in terms of you said something really really powerful there in terms of when you found your person where you were like you know my person is someone who's like I'll give it a go. So as well as your messaging like where else does that, you know obviously in terms of you were able to create an offer specifically for that person, but where else did that enable you to go? Where else does kind of take you? Having that information, understanding who that person is, understanding potentially their hero's journey, what what else does that do for you?
• 45:47
  Cath Reohorn: I think the biggest insight with stuff like that, first of all, I don't think you can assume that one niche is the same everywhere. So when I moved my business off like off the gym floor and onto the Internet, I assumed it would be the same sort of person that I was trying to attract. So I was using the same kinds of messaging, and it just didn't work at all. That's kind of how I started having to learn all of this copy stuff. I was like, what's going wrong?
• 46:16
  I was jammed in person and now it's just not happening. What's going on? And the realization was that I had to just be much more specific. So the the advantage of knowing as much about those people as you can and finding those common areas is really that you can extrapolate and make assumptions about one, their beliefs, their experiences, their likes and dislikes, their pains, their promises, their proof, and so on like that. But you can also assume that I can probably if you've got this experience and this experience, you've probably also had that experience.
• 46:52
  So it allows you to make assumptive common ground, which is useful from a marketing perspective, but it's also useful from a human relations perspective. And you would do this in person naturally. So if we had grown up in the same town and we were roughly the same age, we would assume we probably knew the same people for example. It's just the same idea as that. Right?
• 47:08
  Like for example, you when you were talking about ducks, I was thinking there was an amazing episode of the sopranos. Did you used to watch the sopranos?
• 47:17
  Callum Walker: What? When Tony Soprano's in his pool and he's looking at the ducks and he's getting
• 47:21
  Cath Reohorn: all sad about the ducks. Yes. And it becomes the now look how much easier the flow and not like, the two of us are completely physically relaxed then. Right? Your face totally changed.
• 47:32
  So I can talk to you about marketing until I'm blue in the face. But if we were talking about something, you know, that's just a human person thing. It's not a work thing. It's not a professional thing. This is literally just I am in my Tony Soprano era, and I absolutely love that.
• 47:47
  The whole analogy of the ducks and the, you know, this is an this is a sort of a a representation of his family changing and losing control and unreal TV, by the way. If you've never watched the episode of Pranos, it's it's gotta be like podium TV. Now in person, the natural conversation now would be, okay, so what else is on the podium? Like what other x files is gonna be on there? The murder she wrote is on there for me for sure.
• 48:13
  And then you'd like, oh my god, I didn't know. I haven't thought about the x files in ages for example. Mhmm. And we can go down the rabbit hole of make shows that were really promising that had really terrible spin offs and reruns. Or you know what I mean?
• 48:25
  It's it allows you it gives you a depth and a richness of conversation that isn't just macros, protein, biomechanics. Like, all of those things are super valuable and you've got to be able to do that. But that I would say is maybe 10% of the relationship, and the rest of your relationship is the I trust you because we have we are alike. So your own job, assuming you can do your job of actually getting them in shape or helping them with the nutrition or whatever, your primary job for retention is to make them like you. And the way that you do that is by having common ground.
• 49:03
  Now coaches, personal trainers, gym owners, service providers are so reluctant to share that stuff on social media because they think it's irrelevant. This is a business page. I don't wanna be talking about ducks on my business page. But that's like that's literally the stuff that will get you the most engagement. If you are struggling right now from an engagement perspective, there are three things that need to go in your story every day.
• 49:23
  You need to have something about your job. Here I am training. Here I am writing programs. I need to know what you're doing for a living. There needs to be a piece of social proof.
• 49:32
  I'm really good at this. Look at the incredible standards that my guys are getting. Look at the transformative experience they have when they work with me. But the third and most important thing is this stuff. I call it the buffet.
• 49:43
  Pick something from the buffet. I want as many people to have multifaceted relationships with you as possible that have got nothing to do with your job. So I'm friends with a guy called Dean. He and I send each other sneakers online. No one else is doing that with me.
• 50:02
  That's our thing. I got a guy who sends me Star Wars stuff. I got a guy who sends me, you know, drumming stuff, house music. Like all like you are a complex system. Let people see all of the wonderful dimensions you've got.
• 50:19
  And if people only associate you with you're the nutrition guy or you're the kettlebells guy, you are losing out on so much stuff because from a logical perspective, personal trainers are trying to have conversations with people who are currently not prioritizing their fitness. And if the only thing you talk about is fitness, they can't talk to you. There's nothing to talk about. So you've got to start the conversation somewhere. If you were a massive Game of Thrones fan, me too by the way, obviously you are, like I can make an assumptive gesture about
• 50:51
  Callum Walker: that. Of course.
• 50:52
  Cath Reohorn: So I can assume you're gonna love that. If I was like, but if I was like, had never read that book and you said hey have you read this? I'm like oh I don't know what you're talking about and you just kept talking about it, You wouldn't do that. You would just modify. This is exactly the same.
• 51:10
  You're just trying to create a lot of little hooks on your content, your marketing, in your copy, so that the right people go oh, I like that thing. I'd like to talk to you about that thing. And ideally, that's not gonna be training because they're not training yet, probably. Ideally, that's gonna be something human that they can enthuse about Because you nailed it when you said this entire thing is an exchange of energy. Your sales, your marketing, your conviction, your certainty, your place in the market is anchored by your enthusiasm for what you do, and you can piggyback on enthusiasm on other things you're enthusiastic about.
• 51:54
  So the most important thing that I see almost no one doing is talking about something that you just think is cool as hell to other people who also think is cool as hell while demonstrating that you're really good at your job. Almost zero of my sales comes from talking about marketing. Almost zero. It'll come from Star Wars, woodworking, you know, like desk setups, whatever other thing I'm interested in because you are multidimensional and multifaceted and if you never show that side of yourself, you become a ball. And
• 52:32
  Callum Walker: on that actually which is interesting, if I look at like a challenge that I kind of got myself into and a real hole I got into, You know, like, especially when you're running a business, I feel like it can yeah. Well, it's an obsession. Like, for me, it is an obsession. But I know for myself, I did get to a point where that obsession was just solely the only thing I thought about, learnt about, and worked about effectively was just entrepreneurship in my business. And it's almost that like off the back of that, I then became really dull and boring because it's just that the only thing that this guy actually does work.
• 53:14
  And I think that that in itself is like, and I think one really kind of powerful thing that helped me, I went to an event in Orlando and there was a speaker on the stage and he basically was saying he was like you know you need to he said you need to be a walking advert for the life someone can live and the person that they could become. And he then asked this question where he said are you living a life that you would want someone else to live? And it was interesting because the answer to that for me was no. Because like the only thing I do is work and the only thing I do is focus on my fitness and my work. And I look at that from an attraction perspective, How many other people want that specific lifestyle where the only thing is that they wake up, train, go to work, wake up, train, go to work?
• 54:02
  So also would you say that within this as well, like right exercise, and I think one thing that I found, I was really struggling with my content at one point because I didn't have enough things to comment on because I didn't do anything else. So I'd almost kind of exhausted the number of times I could actually speak about nutrition or the number of times I could speak about training, or the number of times I could speak about overcoming your limiting belief, all of that sort of shit. And I found that like it was almost like to be able to create more content, go and do things that you have content to actually comment on. So then that then becomes like a really exciting journey where it's like I'm just gonna go and do and that's what I've really loved from what you said there and it's definitely gonna drive me into more action around that because I know for myself I definitely haven't I haven't taken up you know, that specific mantle. I've got so many weird shit that I could comment on.
• 54:55
  Like, he needs to get onto my Instagram so much more. You know? But but that in itself, that's an exciting prospect of going like, right. I'm just gonna go all in on the things that I want to do and I'm interested in my life and then share that with other people. And doesn't that really kind of come about actually I'm using social media as instead of social media I use it as social networking to actually make friends?
• 55:16
  Cath Reohorn: Completely. I think the biggest value of social media like I'm I grew up in an era where social media was not for business. It was literally just stay in touch with your friends. So talking shit on the Internet and sending memes and hanging out in forums and sharing songs and sharing playlists and all that type of thing was was that was what we did on there. That was that was how we used it.
• 55:43
  So you know reading people's opinions on books you've read or that that kind of purely social. I'm not trying to sell you anything. I would say needs to be the overwhelming majority of most people's approach to social media. Social media is great to meet people and vet them. I think this is the a forgotten part of social media.
• 56:06
  People are like, I wanna VA in my DMs. I don't wanna do my DMs myself. I'm so burned out on social media. Bro, it's literally cat videos. How can you possibly be burned out?
• 56:16
  Like normal people do this after their job. Like they've worked a twelve hour job and they're just coming here to look at pictures of monkeys or whatever. It's not like imagine telling your grandparents. I'm so burned out today. It's like 12 DMs.
• 56:29
  They'd like like grow up, give your head the wobble. This is nothing. You're talking to your friends on the Internet. Right? Yeah.
• 56:36
  The the thing that people forget about this process is that you are vetting them. This is basically an interview. Do I like you enough to invite you into my business? Because if you never talk to them and you're just trying to sell them, you have no idea how much of a load they are. When I was an in person PT, I used to joke that I take all the inductions.
• 57:01
  I'm like, want them all because I know I'm gonna sell 80% of these people. So the induction would finish, and I'd like, so talk to me about what you wanna achieve. Like, we'd go through the whole thing. I was like, and then you'd be like, and I've got a class starting in about ten minutes time. And since you're here anyway and you're in your kit, will you not just come along with me now?
• 57:20
  And they'd say yes, and then they're in. Right? So I've got them. I know. I'm gonna time this on purpose.
• 57:25
  Because by then they've said yes to lots of things. The reason why I do that, and then I would speak to them afterwards and I'd say, listen. If we're gonna do this, it's really important to me that you pass the dickhead test and I pass your dickhead test because this is gonna be fun. And if we're gonna hang out together for an hour a week at least, you gotta like me. So I want you to spend some time with me.
• 57:49
  I want you to be able to decide. And if we get to the end of this time and you think, I'm already so sure, that's completely cool. I will connect you with another personal trainer. The one that hasn't turned up for your induction and the one that has spent no time with you so far. So liking is improved because you've been exposed to me more often.
• 58:07
  I'll make sure you have a fantastic time in this class. The music's gonna be banging. When you're coming along, it's thirty minutes and the music's gonna be banging. Yeah. I'm here now.
• 58:15
  Yeah. Come on. So the liking is high at that point anyway. Right? I'm just gonna make sure you have a great time.
• 58:21
  And then when we get to the end of the session, I must have had hundreds of clients, and I think only once I ever referred somebody else out just because they'd stood me up twice, and I thought that was that's just gonna get on my tits. So I'm not gonna chase you for fucking turning up. I'll just I'll just give you somebody else. And that was it. Almost always.
• 58:40
  But once because we found some common ground. Like, wanna know about your life. Tell me about your life. Why is this important to you? And by then, I'm like, cool.
• 58:47
  I went there. I know that person. You can find some common ground there. So your liking is enhanced by exposure. People like familiar things.
• 58:58
  So the more they talk to you, the more they will like you and people buy from people they like.
• 59:04
  Callum Walker: To what extent does scarcity mindset stop people from going down that route?
• 59:11
  Cath Reohorn: Yeah, that's a completely valid point. One of the things that I was at a huge advantage was that when I got made redundant and I knew I was I had like a whole year of being made redundant, so I knew I could train. I had time to train as a PT. Mhmm. But I also had my salary, so I didn't need to close anyone.
• 59:33
  I had a redundancy payout, small amount of money or whatever. It wasn't it wasn't like life changing money, but it meant that I I didn't have to sell everybody. And one of the practical things I learned this from Jonathan Goodman. I looked like so he talks about this is the amount of money that you need to feel safe. This is like comfortable walking around money, and this is like luxury money.
• 59:58
  So getting clear on how much money you actually needed to earn to make sure that you weren't you know, you were able to pay your mortgage or you were able to pay your rent or whatever the the requirement is. Get clear on that and don't bury your head with the emergency money at least. And then once you hit that, then you haven't got to say yes to anything because here's the mindset shift that that changed everything for me. Anybody can give you money. Money is not the point.
• 1:00:31
  Money is not the asset. The client is not the asset. You are the asset. Because if all your clients leave tomorrow and you have to completely rebuild, it's the relationships that you've got that you'll draw on, and it's your relationship with yourself that comes first. So that self trust piece that comes from having a really solid relationship with yourself, that's the thing that you need to cultivate the most.
• 1:00:58
  And that comes from not saying yes to everybody who wants to pay you money.
• 1:01:05
  Callum Walker: That's powerful. That is powerful. I've got yeah. So I've got one final question because I am conscious of your time. So how how do you so so let's say that, like, you know, let's say I'm I'm coaching.
• 1:01:22
  I'm in a situation where I'm like, I need your help extracting this dance with me. So almost like you said there in terms of the brain dump, Like how do you almost kind of like, what's your sort of process to begin almost kind of helping someone extract all of this out of themselves and then piece it together in terms of a jigsaw puzzle that they can see?
• 1:01:43
  Cath Reohorn: That's a good question. It's going to be different for everybody. I think much better in writing. Most people think much better when they're allowed to speak. I feel like I start talking.
• 1:01:53
  I drift out of what I've said, I drift back in. Am I still So talking about I probably wouldn't use this method myself, but I've used this with clients and I know that this can be useful for lots of people. There are AIs that you can just voice dictate to. So I've got I've got it on my watch. You can do like a just a voice record on your iPhone.
• 1:02:12
  You can do it in Google Docs where you can do voice typing. You could just talk to chat GPT and you can have it transcribe what you're saying. I do this with Okta almost all of the time. Everything because my memory is awful, so I don't remember anything I say. So I'll have Okta running all of the time and it's like, you said these things.
• 1:02:30
  These were like that was semi smart. You should probably do something about that. We probably write that down. And then I'll sit and write it properly, right? So like I when I start talking, feel like my thoughts go off in a thousand different directions.
• 1:02:43
  But if you struggle with writer's block, and you think what how do I start this process? Take yourself off on a walk, stick your headphones in, stick voice record on your phone or Octa or there's an app for that or chat GPT if you prefer and just dictate to it and have it organise your thoughts for you. And you'd be surprised how do that for a whole week, and I'd be surprised how often the same themes come up again and again. And those emerging themes are likely to be some form of, if not a content pillar, certainly something that's important enough to that you should unpack.
• 1:03:21
  Callum Walker: That's interesting because that is exactly what my podcast is for me. Really interesting. Most of my podcasts are kind of monologues where I'm I know, of course, have guests on, but I love to go for a walk and talk about the things that have made an impression on me. And I listen back to my podcast pretty regularly. If I look at most of my downloads, I would say I'm 50%.
• 1:03:42
  I'm definitely the top listener. Definitely getting the trophy. But it like exactly that. It's like almost kind of organizes the thoughts of seeing the core thought processes of like these are the things that I'm legitimately fascinated and passionate about and then you can see the through line of where they all kind of connect and then it gives you that clarity. Think that's such a fantastic yeah, that is such a fantastic tip.
• 1:04:08
  Well, not even tipped, but an easy way for someone to take a first step that results in such a powerful result of clarity for you. So I can't even say a huge thank you for today. Honestly, it's just been so much fun. Like it's so cool to just like to be able to jam with you, just you know see a fellow nerd who obviously is fascinating about the same sort of thing as well. And just have a giggle and have a laugh.
• 1:04:36
  And yeah, it's amazing. Can I say thank you so much for your time? So in terms of you know, who's listening to this, how can they find you? And also like you know what, in terms of like service that you can offer, what is the first step that someone could potentially take to, yeah, to get into your world?
• 1:04:55
  Cath Reohorn: Well, first of all, thank you for having me on. This has been an absolute blast. It's been actually a great interview. I feel like I've Thanks. This has been like an incredibly good quality question.
• 1:05:06
  If people wanted to get in touch with me, I would say come and hang out on social media. We are just gonna hang out. I'm not trying to sell you anything. Come and chat to me on Instagram. You can find me at kind copy UK.
• 1:05:16
  It really is me in my inbox. There are no VAs in there. It is just me hanging out. Send me some memes. Make me laugh.
• 1:05:23
  Let's have a laugh. Make sure I pass the dickhead test, and then we can talk about what you might need if anything because it could be that you don't need anything. And you just come and have a look at the sort of free stuff I put out and that's enough for you. That'd be great.
• 1:05:34
  Callum Walker: You are a superstar, Cath. Thank you so much for your time.
• 1:05:37
  Cath Reohorn: Thank you for having me on. It's a
• 1:05:40
  Callum Walker: pleasure.