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Happiness Engineer: CTRL + ALT + DELIGHT · Roast the Post Podcast

0:00
Hey,
0:00
I'm Jennifer Houle and this is Roast the Post,
0:03
the story behind the bullet points.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: Hello folks on Substack who are joining us.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: Hello.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: This week I am the hostess with the mostess,
0:14
SPEAKER_02: which means that I am bringing a job description,
0:17
SPEAKER_02: a real job description or posting that I found in the wild.
0:21
SPEAKER_02: that Paul has not seen yet.
0:24
SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to go through it.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: And we are going to talk about the good, the bad and the ugly.
0:29
SPEAKER_02: So thanks for joining us today.
0:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to give you
0:35
SPEAKER_02: I guess like a little preview of this job posting.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: This is a part that we kind of just started doing this,
0:43
SPEAKER_02: but it's to give people,
0:45
SPEAKER_02: listeners,
0:45
SPEAKER_02: an idea of what the job posting is going to be about.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: I think it's hilarious and super cheesy, and I love it.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: So I had a lot of fun with this one.
0:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: So here we go.
0:56
This week on Roast the Post,
0:57
we're looking at a role called Happiness Engineer.
1:02
SPEAKER_02: and right away I have questions.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: The most important one being what exactly is a happiness engineer?
1:08
SPEAKER_02: Someone whose KPI is making people smile?
1:10
SPEAKER_02: The ambassador of mandatory workplace fun?
1:13
SPEAKER_02: Please tell me that they don't go around tickling people.
1:17
Behind one of the most eyebrow-raising job titles we've seen is
1:20
a role that
1:21
SPEAKER_02: requires technical expertise,
1:23
SPEAKER_02: customer support experience,
1:25
SPEAKER_02: exceptional communication skills,
1:27
SPEAKER_02: AI fluency,
1:28
SPEAKER_02: interdependent decision-making,
1:30
and the ability to help people who are often reaching out on
1:33
one of the worst days
1:34
SPEAKER_02: they've had with the product.
1:37
So no,
1:37
this isn't handing out birthday cards and organizing office
1:41
parties.
1:42
This is a customer-facing role with real complexity hiding
1:45
behind a title that
1:46
SPEAKER_02: sounds like it came out of a corporate naming workshop.
1:50
This week we're asking,
1:51
is Happiness Engineer one of the most ridiculous job titles
1:54
ever?
1:55
Or is it actually a pretty great job posting wrapped in a title
1:58
that deserves its
1:59
SPEAKER_02: own support ticket?
2:01
SPEAKER_02: That being said, let's roast the post.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: How did I do, Paul?
2:10
SPEAKER_00: That was pretty good.
2:12
I think that Happiness Engineer is my favorite 2010s tech
2:20
startup job title.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: It just makes me feel warm inside.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, happiness engineer.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm building happiness.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: But that's the point.
2:30
It is a very fun way to brand or rebrand the customer support
2:36
agent or customer
2:38
SPEAKER_00: customer success manager,
2:40
customer success agent type job role into something that like
2:44
orients the whole
2:44
SPEAKER_00: thing,
2:45
SPEAKER_00: points it towards the customer.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: I think that's what I love most about it.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, let's get into this.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to hear what you found, what you picked out.
2:55
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
2:55
SPEAKER_02: And so let's go over the Roasty profile.
2:58
SPEAKER_02: The job title is Happiness Engineer.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: customer support and success.
3:03
SPEAKER_02: The report to title is unknown.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: The company size is 1,001 to 5,000 employees.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: The industry is software development.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: What does the company do?
3:13
SPEAKER_02: They create software that helps people build websites,
3:15
SPEAKER_02: sell products online and manage their digital content.
3:19
SPEAKER_02: The head office location is San Francisco, California.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: The job location is remote.
3:25
The geographical operating area is global and the job type is
3:29
full-time remote.
3:30
And for our listeners,
3:33
we do not name the company because we don't want to get sued.
3:38
So there's enough information here that you can kind of figure
3:43
out the company.
3:44
and we always post a link to the job description that we
3:49
basically copy change a
3:50
couple of words to keep it anonymous and post so you can when
3:55
you're listening to
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the podcast episode that we are recording right now you can
3:59
follow along with the
4:00
job posting and so I'm going to go ahead and get started this
4:04
is a really like
4:06
big job posting and so there's a lot to discuss and so I'm
4:12
gonna read little bits
4:12
and pieces and then I want to talk about it because I don't
4:14
want you Paul to forget
4:16
some of the things that I'm saying here so we're gonna we're
4:19
gonna get into it a
4:20
little bit with this one so at the beginning there's a little
4:23
blurb at the company
4:25
I'm just gonna call it the company our happiness engineers are
4:28
the creators and
4:29
SPEAKER_02: protectors of the customer experience we take this seriously
4:33
SPEAKER_02: Every employee,
4:34
SPEAKER_02: regardless of role,
4:36
spends their first two weeks in support and does a one-week
4:40
rotation annually.
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Happiness engineers introduce our customers to the
4:45
possibilities of the open web.
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SPEAKER_02: We teach,
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instruct and solve technical problems so that our customers can
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achieve their
4:52
SPEAKER_02: publishing and commerce goals.
4:54
We also advocate for our customers internally to help build
4:57
better tools and
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SPEAKER_02: products to serve their ever-changing needs.
5:01
SPEAKER_02: and then it has a link to reading more about their customer values.
5:05
It didn't say like much,
5:07
but yet there is a lot to talk about in that blurb.
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So I wanted to stop there and get your opinion on what you
5:15
think about the idea of
5:16
SPEAKER_02: somebody,
5:17
SPEAKER_02: no matter what role in the position in the company,
5:21
SPEAKER_02: going into this role to see what it's like.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts on that?
5:26
Yeah,
5:27
so you're right that the number of words that were in that,
5:32
pretty low.
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SPEAKER_00: It didn't say a lot, but it did say a lot.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: Like with that couple of sentences,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm getting a pretty good flavor for what this role really is about,
5:43
SPEAKER_00: what the purpose is in the organization.
5:45
The one thing that caught me off guard was that happiness
5:49
engineers are not
5:51
SPEAKER_00: actually a part of the CS team.
5:54
because it said you basically start doing a one week rotation
5:57
in customer support
5:58
taking tickets and then once a year you kind of do the same
6:02
thing right like you
6:03
rotate through that group so that tells me that the happiness
6:06
engineer is not just
6:08
SPEAKER_00: a branding for CS which is
6:10
SPEAKER_00: that's kind of cool.
6:11
This is some sort of customer experience design or customer
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experience engineering
6:15
SPEAKER_00: role that works pretty closely with the customer support function in the
6:22
SPEAKER_00: organization.
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SPEAKER_00: And the fact that they're locking this role so close
6:29
to that part of the business makes me perk up and makes me
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think,
6:34
this is really interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: I dig this.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: I actually spoke about this at a conference about eight months ago.
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I'd come up with a system that described how you would keep
6:46
leadership and product
6:47
SPEAKER_00: development close to the customer as your organization scales.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: because when your organization starts scaling,
6:53
SPEAKER_00: usually one of the first things to go to the gutter is the really strong
6:58
relationship between the founders or the founding team and
7:02
their early customers.
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SPEAKER_00: And that close relationship
7:05
SPEAKER_00: makes a startup really, really shine at the very start.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: So I spoke about this,
7:12
how to preserve that relationship over time structurally within
7:16
the organization
7:17
SPEAKER_00: with job roles,
7:17
SPEAKER_00: with processes,
7:18
SPEAKER_00: with reporting structures,
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SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
7:20
SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
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SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
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SPEAKER_00: And it kind of sounds like this is that.
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SPEAKER_00: It sounds like they're trying to keep
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SPEAKER_00: customers and decision making very closely tied together.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: So I super, I dig that.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: If this is what I think it is, I'm a happy boy.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it's what you're describing.
7:41
SPEAKER_02: We'll get into it a little bit more,
7:43
SPEAKER_02: but it's interesting that that's the read you got off of it.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that that's what it is.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: I think this is a customer support role.
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And I think what they're saying is that when you enter the
7:52
company so that you
7:52
SPEAKER_02: understand what it is that we're trying to do here,
7:55
SPEAKER_02: you have to experience what it's like to be
7:57
uh in customer support because then you'll get a better feel of
8:01
like the vibe and
8:01
what we're going for and just like kind of what our employees
8:05
what are what our
8:05
clients and customers experience that we can all design
8:08
something better like is
8:09
that what you're that what you're saying or you're saying that
8:12
this isn't I think
8:13
I'm just confused about what you think this role is but we can
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also pause here
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SPEAKER_02: and I can read a little bit more to get a bit more insight.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: Let's carry on.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: Let's carry on.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: Because right now,
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SPEAKER_00: just to TLDR,
8:24
SPEAKER_00: like right now,
8:25
what I'm kind of picturing from this role is that it is an
8:29
experiential design role
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SPEAKER_00: closely related to the experience that the customer has on the platform.
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SPEAKER_00: So you're not taking tickets on a day-to-day basis,
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SPEAKER_00: but you're deeply,
8:41
SPEAKER_00: deeply involved in understanding what customers are saying.
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SPEAKER_00: That's kind of my read on it right now.
8:47
right okay well let's see let's see how uh how right you are or
8:53
not about this role
8:55
I will say though that I think it's so important for companies
8:58
to have a practice
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like this where you go in and you get to like like say you're
9:03
gonna work in
9:04
SPEAKER_02: corporate at McDonald's you should have
9:06
the experience of working in a McDonald's store just to see
9:10
what it's like,
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SPEAKER_02: understand the customer's perspective,
9:13
SPEAKER_02: understand the employee's perspective,
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SPEAKER_02: and then you can build a better experience all around for everyone.
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SPEAKER_02: And I also like the idea that it's not just a one and done.
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They're saying every year you're going to do a shift so that
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you can keep that front of mind.
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SPEAKER_02: I really respect that.
9:30
SPEAKER_02: We're going to go into about the job.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: That's the next section in the job posting.
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SPEAKER_02: As a happiness engineer,
9:36
SPEAKER_02: and then it says HE,
9:38
you'll spend around six self-scheduled hours per day helping
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customers via email
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SPEAKER_02: and live chat with constant peer support through Slack.
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SPEAKER_02: We're fully remote, but communicate heavily.
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SPEAKER_02: Expect continuous interaction with both customers and teammates.
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SPEAKER_02: HEs typically work one to two weekend days per month.
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SPEAKER_02: with equivalent flex days off during the week.
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SPEAKER_02: This is a snapshot of what the work looks like today,
10:04
but customer service needs and norms are constantly evolving
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and our daily work
10:07
SPEAKER_02: evolves with it,
10:09
SPEAKER_02: so your week might look quite different six months from now.
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SPEAKER_02: Beyond customer support,
10:13
you'll help elevate our entire customer experience by
10:15
identifying problems before
10:16
SPEAKER_02: they arise,
10:19
SPEAKER_02: finding efficiency improvements,
10:20
SPEAKER_02: and piloting new services like onboarding calls.
10:24
Our ideal hire has built a career in customer service and is
10:27
genuinely motivated by
10:29
SPEAKER_02: having meaningful,
10:29
SPEAKER_02: substantive conversations with customers every single day.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: We're looking for ambitious,
10:34
motivated people who want to create a world-class experience
10:37
every time our
10:38
SPEAKER_02: customers use our products.
10:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to pause there.
10:43
SPEAKER_02: Does that help you have a better understanding of the role then?
10:46
SPEAKER_00: A little more confused than I was.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: So with that section,
10:55
SPEAKER_00: the about the role section,
10:56
SPEAKER_00: it really sounds to me like this is a customer facing support role.
11:02
But could we go back to the very first section that you read
11:08
out and reread the
11:10
SPEAKER_00: part where it says,
11:11
SPEAKER_00: where it talks about spending a week in customer support every year?
11:18
SPEAKER_02: Okay,
11:19
SPEAKER_02: so at the company,
11:20
our happiness engineers are the creators and protectors of the
11:24
customer experience.
11:25
SPEAKER_02: We take this seriously.
11:27
SPEAKER_02: Every employee,
11:28
SPEAKER_02: regardless of role,
11:29
spends their first two weeks in support and does a one-week
11:33
rotation annually.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I think that that's where I got my wires crossed then.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: I thought that that was a part of the onboarding process for this role,
11:42
but it's every employee spends two weeks in this group at the
11:46
start and then one
11:47
SPEAKER_00: week at a time.
11:49
SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
11:49
SPEAKER_02: So even if you are like Chief Fun Officer,
11:55
you'll do your two weeks during your onboarding and every year
11:58
you'll do a week.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, this is what I'm saying.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: This is what I like about
12:03
SPEAKER_02: what they're offering here.
12:04
SPEAKER_02: So the role is a customer success role.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious about your thoughts on the self-scheduled six hours per day.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: That's going to be tough from a scheduling perspective and like
12:19
kind of keeping the needs of customers at the center of this
12:25
part of the business.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: If you allow everyone to self-schedule,
12:30
SPEAKER_00: you're potentially creating gaps because what if you have normal peaks?
12:38
SPEAKER_00: in support activity in hours that people don't want to work.
12:42
So they self-schedule around those and all of a sudden you have
12:44
no people available
12:46
SPEAKER_00: for live customer support during that time.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that doesn't matter.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they don't offer live support.
12:52
I would hope that they do you know most organizations do
12:54
especially if it's
12:55
enterprise software different if it's consumer software the
12:59
money isn't quite there
13:00
to just support that infrastructure in B2C companies typically
13:05
unless it's AI
13:06
agents but I would be worried about the scheduling of this
13:11
because like you got to
13:13
run the business right and people what they want doesn't always
13:17
line up with that
13:18
SPEAKER_00: reality of you got to run the business
13:20
SPEAKER_02: I like the idea of it.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: I think that sounds great.
13:23
I feel like there's a caveat somewhere that you find out after
13:25
the fact because of
13:26
SPEAKER_02: exactly what you said.
13:27
SPEAKER_02: But then again, it's a global company.
13:29
So maybe they figure if they have enough people in these roles
13:33
and they're
13:33
SPEAKER_02: distributed in a way that makes sense,
13:36
SPEAKER_02: then that's not even an issue.
13:38
SPEAKER_02: I have no idea.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: But I do like that idea of people are self-scheduling.
13:43
SPEAKER_02: Truly, as long as you're getting your work done.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: And it's also six hours per day, which is interesting to me.
13:51
you know they're paying a full-time salary it's a full-time
13:54
role for six hours a
13:56
day which I think is really cool I wonder if folks can also do
14:00
like compressed work
14:03
SPEAKER_02: weeks so that they have more time off not sure but it's interesting
14:08
I would wonder if that is your normal established workday is
14:14
six hours or whether
14:16
SPEAKER_00: that's customer facing time.
14:18
Because the way that I kind of interpreted that in my brain is
14:23
that your workday is
14:24
SPEAKER_00: seven and a half hours.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: You're going to pick the six hours that you are on tickets,
14:30
SPEAKER_00: your customer facing,
14:31
SPEAKER_00: and you're directly supporting customers.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: But then the other hour and a half is for other work.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: And I'm a big,
14:39
SPEAKER_00: big fan of bringing your customer experience,
14:43
SPEAKER_00: your support agents into other areas of the business.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: Typically when I design organizational stuff to do this,
14:52
SPEAKER_00: have a role that is a voice of the customer role.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: So it's basically a customer advocate,
14:57
but you can take that and you can spread it across your entire
15:00
support team.
15:01
So if you say,
15:02
hey,
15:03
six hours a day working on customer facing cases,
15:06
and then one and a half
15:07
SPEAKER_00: No, it doesn't.
15:32
but yeah that's a really good point one of the things I wanted
15:34
to point out that I
15:35
really appreciate is that they they mention that you will get
15:40
constant peer support
15:41
through Slack so like if you're struggling with a customer
15:44
issue or whatever you're
15:45
on Slack and you're like oh I'm going through this right now
15:48
like I really
15:48
appreciate when a job hosting explains how you will be
15:52
supported in your role it
15:54
does not happen very often it's more like you're expected to do
15:58
this this and that
16:00
SPEAKER_02: but it doesn't say like how you will be
16:02
and what supports will be in place in order for you to be
16:04
successful at those things.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: So I really appreciate that.
16:09
And I appreciate that it says that the work is evolving and
16:13
that your week might
16:14
SPEAKER_02: look different six months from now.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: So what we're saying now is the case for now, but it might be different.
16:20
And so there's an openness on the company side too for changing
16:26
to meet needs.
16:27
and there needs to be an openness on the candidate side as well
16:30
to be okay with
16:31
SPEAKER_02: those evolving needs.
16:34
This job posting is not bullet points,
16:36
which is what we're used to seeing.
16:38
it's it's really a story like it's really just kind of telling
16:42
a story about the
16:43
role and so yeah so far those are some of the things that I'm
16:47
I'm liking in this
16:48
job posting I mean I say that there are bullet points but not
16:51
very many so let's
16:52
talk about the nets so we uh so we we can't use like our normal
16:56
um tagline for the
16:57
show then the story between the bullet points because there
16:59
ain't no bullet points
17:01
SPEAKER_00: just the story
17:03
SPEAKER_02: So the next section is an interesting one.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: Again, it's something that you do not see very often.
17:10
SPEAKER_02: The headline is Career Growth as a Happiness Engineer.
17:16
And then it goes on to say,
17:17
we view support as a long-term career,
17:21
not a stepping stone.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: Some of our most valued HEs, which again is Happiness Engineers,
17:27
SPEAKER_02: have been here for a decade or more.
17:30
We also strongly believe in growing and challenging our
17:32
employees and we promote
17:34
SPEAKER_02: internally for leadership,
17:36
SPEAKER_02: including senior leadership.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: There's a little bit more,
17:38
but the other sentence I highlighted was our happiness
17:41
engineers have transitioned
17:43
SPEAKER_02: to roles in every possible capacity,
17:45
SPEAKER_02: both within happiness and all across the company.
17:49
So I wanted to stop there to get your thoughts on that,
17:51
because like I said,
17:52
you don't often see
17:53
a section in a job posting that talks about how you can grow
17:56
and develop the organization.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: It's so, like, extractive.
17:59
SPEAKER_02: It's like,
18:00
SPEAKER_02: you need to be this,
18:01
SPEAKER_02: this,
18:01
SPEAKER_02: and that,
18:02
SPEAKER_02: and very rarely do you hear what they're willing to give you in return.
18:05
Like,
18:06
it's a reciprocal relationship,
18:08
but job postings are very much,
18:10
like,
18:12
not that way.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, curious to hear your thoughts on that specific section.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: If true, bravo is kind of my first thought.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
18:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:24
SPEAKER_00: customer support,
18:26
SPEAKER_00: client support groups,
18:28
SPEAKER_00: whatever they happen to be,
18:30
SPEAKER_00: typically in organizations,
18:31
SPEAKER_00: they're looked at as a cost center.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: and management,
18:36
SPEAKER_00: especially when you get into governance by spreadsheet BS,
18:40
SPEAKER_00: management tends to look at cost centers and says,
18:42
SPEAKER_00: okay,
18:43
SPEAKER_00: how do we attack those cost centers?
18:44
SPEAKER_00: How do we reduce them so that the operating margins overall are bigger?
18:50
SPEAKER_00: Hello, capitalism.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: That's what it is.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: That mindset is goofy for me.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: Customer support is
19:00
is,
19:00
by its very nature,
19:02
the closest in the entire organization to your customers.
19:06
Not only can they be empowered to solving customer problems is
19:12
the core part of the
19:13
SPEAKER_00: job,
19:14
but they can also be empowered to be a research arm to bring in
19:21
information that
19:22
SPEAKER_00: feeds innovation.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: Because again, they're closest to the customer.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: They're going to know what's going on with the customers.
19:29
So if you start looking at a CS group as not like support
19:34
agents to outsource,
19:36
SPEAKER_00: but partners in innovation and success,
19:38
SPEAKER_00: you can
19:39
and start to build a business case for investing in that group
19:42
and paying better
19:43
SPEAKER_00: salaries,
19:44
SPEAKER_00: retaining people longer term,
19:46
SPEAKER_00: having better people in the organization over time.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: And what they've said lines up with that.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: So if it's not window dressing, good for them, fantastic.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: Especially if they've figured out the salary part,
20:00
SPEAKER_00: if they've figured out how to pay decent wages to people in this group,
20:04
SPEAKER_00: Awesome, because typically that's a problem with CS groups.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, you squeeze on the salary because it's a cost center, you know?
20:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
20:14
SPEAKER_02: I love this.
20:15
I think that every job posting should talk about what our
20:18
potential career growth opportunities
20:21
um and the fact that they name it they talk about it it seems
20:24
like they have it
20:25
worked out it seems like they have a history they have
20:27
demonstrated that this is
20:28
what they do is like two thumbs up for me this is like it's so
20:32
bizarre because
20:33
usually when we're doing uh the show we're the job postings are
20:38
kind of like
20:39
but this is the so far this is this is pretty good and I'm
20:43
quite so far yeah so far
20:45
this is like I'm I'm pleasantly surprised so far they also hint
20:49
in that section
20:50
SPEAKER_00: about having established pathways for for growth and training into other
20:56
departments and other roles and if that's also the case if
20:59
that's not window
21:00
SPEAKER_00: dressing spectacular
21:03
SPEAKER_00: Building a sustainable,
21:05
resilient organization over the long term requires retaining
21:10
good people and
21:11
SPEAKER_00: supporting them in their growth.
21:12
Because institutional knowledge is one of those things that you
21:16
can't value on the
21:17
SPEAKER_00: balance sheet.
21:18
And when it starts to disappear and you just start turning
21:21
people over and
21:22
you know like the turnstile or whatever of layoffs and rehiring
21:26
and layoffs and
21:27
rehiring you lose all that institutional knowledge that has
21:30
incredible value but
21:32
SPEAKER_00: doesn't have a line entry on like your balance sheet
21:35
SPEAKER_00: So if they've figured that out and they've said,
21:37
SPEAKER_00: we're going to keep here,
21:37
we're going to keep people here and we're going to support them
21:40
as they grow,
21:41
SPEAKER_00: awesome.
21:42
Because I can guarantee you that somebody you hire internally
21:46
for a leadership
21:47
SPEAKER_00: position who has been trained and supported and grows over time,
21:52
SPEAKER_00: put up side by side with someone external with the same qualifications,
21:57
your internal candidate is going to deliver a hell of a lot
22:00
more value to your
22:01
SPEAKER_00: business in a much shorter time period.
22:04
so like if you want that long-term sustainably growing business
22:07
keep your people
22:09
Absolutely and then you're hiring in to replace them like at
22:12
the more junior level
22:13
role the salary is lower so it is it is a good sustainable
22:17
practice that I think
22:18
SPEAKER_02: can scale.
22:20
I think also too in customer support roles traditionally
22:24
there's a lower barrier to
22:25
entry you're not necessarily looking for someone who you know
22:28
has post-secondary
22:29
education or anything like that and so you're giving people an
22:33
opportunity who may
22:34
SPEAKER_02: have
22:35
systemically had more challenges,
22:37
more hoops to jump through to progress in a career.
22:40
You're giving them real opportunities and I think that's one of
22:43
the most important
22:44
parts of this practice is giving people real opportunities
22:49
without like yeah
22:51
recognizing that we don't all start on the same footing and so
22:55
I think it's
22:55
SPEAKER_02: fantastic.
22:57
This is the section of the job posting with bullet points and
23:00
so this is what we
23:01
SPEAKER_02: are looking for.
23:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to read through all of them,
23:04
SPEAKER_02: but there are a couple of things that I wanted to highlight.
23:08
They mentioned that they would love someone with experience
23:10
using their products and platforms.
23:13
So they have a couple of different softwares and they would
23:18
like someone who's used
23:19
SPEAKER_02: them,
23:19
SPEAKER_02: whether it's like building their own personal sites or whatever it is.
23:22
And then they mentioned be specific about your background and
23:25
your applications.
23:26
They talk about customer support experience,
23:29
that you've done it and you love it.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: They talk about initiative and impact.
23:35
So you've gone beyond daily tasks to improve things with
23:38
measurable results.
23:39
SPEAKER_02: Did you boost retention?
23:41
SPEAKER_02: Have you created efficient solutions?
23:42
SPEAKER_02: Have you delivered strategic results?
23:45
SPEAKER_02: Insights tell us.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, communications is listed.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: Self-starter mentality.
23:51
You're independent,
23:52
you never miss deadlines,
23:54
and you thrive in a high-autonomy environment.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: You learn on the job and manage your workload without heavy oversight.
24:01
SPEAKER_02: Unique expertise.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: Whether you're a deeply technical troubleshooter,
24:05
SPEAKER_02: e-commerce expert,
24:07
SPEAKER_02: experienced leader,
24:08
SPEAKER_02: or operational genius,
24:10
SPEAKER_02: tell us how your background makes you perfect for this role.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: We value diverse experiences.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: And then the last bullet point is AI fluency.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: You actively use AI tools to do better work, not just as a search engine.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: You've moved beyond prompting into building workflows,
24:25
SPEAKER_02: automations,
24:26
SPEAKER_02: or tools that create real value for yourself or others.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: Whether you've shipped a cloud code project,
24:32
SPEAKER_02: designed team-level processes around AI,
24:35
SPEAKER_02: or done something in between,
24:36
SPEAKER_02: you understand that AI is changing how we work.
24:39
SPEAKER_02: Those are the bullet points in the What We Are Looking For A.
24:44
SPEAKER_02: qualifications.
24:46
SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts on those?
24:47
SPEAKER_00: Kind of have some mixed feelings on that, to be honest.
24:52
The first thing that pops into mind is they are saying they're
24:56
saying the role is
24:57
SPEAKER_00: going to be high autonomy.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: OK, fair.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: This is another case of if true.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Great.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: But structurally, what I find with CS groups is that autonomy
25:12
SPEAKER_00: only exists within a very, very narrow playpen.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: So you have autonomy in
25:22
you talk to customers you have autonomy in perhaps processes
25:27
inside that CS group
25:29
but you typically don't have autonomy to fix problems and with
25:34
products anyway with
25:35
like products and things that are external to CS if this
25:39
organization is claiming
25:41
that autonomy extends beyond kind of the normal sandbox into
25:46
other things I would
25:48
SPEAKER_00: have some questions
25:49
I would have some questions because that's not always the best
25:53
way to look at
25:53
SPEAKER_00: things and the best way to do things.
25:56
Like certainly having a lot of conversation between your CS
26:00
people and other parts
26:01
SPEAKER_00: of the organization is a really,
26:03
SPEAKER_00: really,
26:03
SPEAKER_00: really good thing.
26:04
But you wouldn't want someone in a CS group hopping into a code
26:09
base and doing a
26:10
SPEAKER_00: PR,
26:10
SPEAKER_00: writing some code and then pushing it out and being like,
26:12
SPEAKER_00: okay,
26:13
SPEAKER_00: I fixed the problem.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: That probably wouldn't be great.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: So autonomy, what's that actually mean?
26:19
SPEAKER_00: That would be my first question for that.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: AI, use of AI, how they phrase that
26:29
SPEAKER_00: is kind of okay.
26:31
Their phrasing on using AI tools lacks a lot of the bravado of
26:38
AI changes everything.
26:39
So BIA for BAI first or else you're kind of going to be left in
26:44
the past or whatever.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have that feel to it.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: So that's really good.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: But it also doesn't have a whole lot of specificity.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: around the outcomes that they want from AI and use of AI.
26:56
They're saying,
26:56
okay,
26:57
tell us if you've shipped a project with Cloud Code.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's concrete.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: That's an example of what you've done with AI.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: Tell us if you've changed the process.
27:06
Tell us if you've gone beyond using AI as a search engine and
27:09
into something that
27:10
SPEAKER_00: delivers value.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: Tell us about that.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: I do like all of that, but there was no specificity on what they expect.
27:18
So it does feel like they're just kind of throwing a net out
27:20
there and being like,
27:21
SPEAKER_00: AI, right?
27:26
SPEAKER_00: So mixed feeling, but still kind of positive.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: We're seeing that bullet point in job postings a lot more now.
27:35
SPEAKER_02: And it is very vague and generic.
27:37
Like it's almost as though,
27:38
well,
27:38
we got to put somebody who's like,
27:39
you got to put AI in there.
27:41
But I can see how AI would be a really valuable tool for these
27:44
types of roles.
27:45
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
27:47
what I appreciate about the what we're looking for section is
27:50
that they're giving
27:52
you instructions on how to be a successful candidate and how to
27:56
make sure that your
27:58
application is going to get screened through like they're
28:00
literally giving you
28:02
instructions be specific about your background tell us about
28:07
the time you did this
28:08
SPEAKER_02: explain it like
28:10
it's they're saying you know if you have unique expertise
28:13
that's not going to be a
28:14
negative it could be a positive what does it tell us about it
28:17
it might not be
28:18
related to the role on paper but so I really I really like that
28:22
they're explaining
28:23
to you what you need to do to be successful in your role so you
28:26
have a really good
28:27
start with your application on how to how to likely get
28:31
screened in love that
28:33
SPEAKER_02: they're being very very generous in this job posting for sure
28:40
SPEAKER_02: Let's go a little bit.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to skip.
28:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to skip the order because it goes straight into salary.
28:45
But I want to talk a little bit more about some of the other
28:47
things about posting
28:48
SPEAKER_02: before I make you guess the salary for this range,
28:51
SPEAKER_00: do they?
28:52
SPEAKER_02: They do post a range.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: So we like them for that.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: They talk a little bit about the company saying now in our 20th year,
29:02
SPEAKER_02: we're the people behind and they list the platforms.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: But I just put a bunch of platforms and more.
29:07
SPEAKER_02: We believe in making the web a better place.
29:10
SPEAKER_02: We help maintain a balance in society,
29:13
creating and continually refining powerful tools people can use
29:17
to compete fairly,
29:18
SPEAKER_02: regardless of income,
29:20
SPEAKER_02: gender,
29:20
SPEAKER_02: politics,
29:21
SPEAKER_02: language,
29:21
SPEAKER_02: or where they live in the world.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: We believe in open source,
29:25
SPEAKER_02: and the vast majority of our work is available under the GPL,
29:28
SPEAKER_02: which is the General Public License.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: The company is a most loved company.
29:34
SPEAKER_02: That's an award that you can get for being a good company.
29:38
an equal opportunity employer,
29:40
the disability confident and disability confidence committed.
29:45
SPEAKER_02: And here's what that
29:47
might mean for you and they provide a link to kind of like
29:49
definitions of what this means.
29:51
If you need disability related accommodations during the
29:53
application or interview
29:54
SPEAKER_02: process,
29:55
SPEAKER_02: please fill out this form.
29:57
We are committed to ensuring an accessible hiring process for
30:00
all candidates.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: Learn more about our employee resource groups and there's a link to that.
30:05
SPEAKER_02: It also talks about how you can track your application status.
30:10
A link to learn more about how they handle their data so you
30:14
can read their privacy policy.
30:17
And then it talks about being an equal or all qualified
30:21
applicants will receive
30:22
SPEAKER_02: consideration for employment without regard to race,
30:26
SPEAKER_02: color,
30:26
SPEAKER_02: etc.
30:28
SPEAKER_02: And then it also links to know your rights.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: Workplace discrimination is illegal.
30:34
So there's like a little link out to understanding your rights
30:37
about being so
30:38
SPEAKER_02: again,
30:38
SPEAKER_02: very,
30:39
SPEAKER_02: very forward giving being very generous,
30:41
SPEAKER_02: giving a lot of information here,
30:42
SPEAKER_02: which shows that they have confidence in their process.
30:46
um and then we go into uh just a little bit of note about their
30:54
um their salary to
30:56
give you just a little bit extra here please note that salary
31:00
ranges are global
31:01
regardless of location and we pay in local currency we are
31:05
searching for high
31:06
caliber candidates with the skills and qualities to have a net
31:09
positive for the
31:10
SPEAKER_02: company pay will reflect the potential contribution
31:13
and the impact you can bring,
31:15
which may in some cases go beyond the range,
31:17
as stated.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: We're pleased to offer a straightforward,
31:20
SPEAKER_02: competitive-based salary,
31:22
SPEAKER_02: providing financial clarity without complex variable components.
31:26
SPEAKER_02: This isn't your typical work-from-home job.
31:28
SPEAKER_02: We are a Philly remote company with an open vacation policy.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: And then they link out to the benefits.
31:33
They don't list what the benefits are,
31:35
but it says that benefits vary by country.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: So you can check out the benefits based on your location with a link.
31:42
and then also a link to learn more about how they hire and what
31:46
they expect from
31:47
SPEAKER_02: themselves as a company.
31:49
So before you go into the guessing game of what you think the
31:52
salary might be,
31:53
SPEAKER_02: what are your thoughts on all of those things that I just listed?
31:58
SPEAKER_00: So one question,
32:00
SPEAKER_00: the link out the little section that says know your rights,
32:04
SPEAKER_00: where does that link go to?
32:07
it goes to a um it's a poster it's the I guess it's maybe
32:14
specific because this is
32:15
SPEAKER_02: a U.S.
32:16
company specific to knowing um workplace discrimination law I
32:21
don't know I killed
32:21
the link in the document that I'm reading so it couldn't be
32:25
tracked the company
32:26
although I'm sure all the listeners have figured out the
32:28
company by now but
32:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
32:30
the reason that I asked was if they were actually linking out
32:36
in a job post to like
32:39
SPEAKER_00: a government agency's website that deals with that topic,
32:44
SPEAKER_00: wow,
32:45
SPEAKER_00: like good for you.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: I think that's what it is.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
32:49
Then if that's what it is,
32:51
like color me,
32:52
color me very impressed because typically companies
32:57
Another kind of thing about labor relations and kind of the
33:01
state of the world today.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: Companies typically don't really want workers to know their legal rights.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: They only really embark on those conversations when they're required to.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: from a compliance perspective.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: So if these folks are kind of all out saying like,
33:19
SPEAKER_00: hey,
33:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:19
SPEAKER_00: discrimination is illegal and we don't stand for that stuff.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Like we,
33:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:24
SPEAKER_00: we're very supportive and we follow all the laws and hear the laws,
33:28
SPEAKER_00: read for yourself,
33:29
SPEAKER_00: educate yourself.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: If that's what's happening, good for them.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Huge marks from me.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: I've never seen that before in a job.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
33:39
I am kind of curious about the the salary thing it says it said
33:43
something to the
33:44
effect in there that the salary is global and it'll reflect
33:49
your potential
33:50
contributions does that mean that they are paying everybody in
33:55
this role the same
33:57
compensation but just in local dollars or in local currency
34:01
like it yeah it sounds
34:03
SPEAKER_00: like that and if that's the case
34:07
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: Great.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: That's really fair.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: I like that, kind of.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, not kind of.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: I do like that.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: I think it's fair.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: It's equitable.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: But from a management perspective,
34:22
SPEAKER_00: from a cash flow management perspective,
34:25
that's kind of crazy because you're basically saying that you
34:28
have to price your
34:29
job ads for the most expensive labor market that your company
34:32
will hire people for,
34:34
SPEAKER_00: which is probably the US market.
34:36
And you're saying,
34:37
okay,
34:38
so we're going to pay X dollars in the US market.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: That's a competitive salary.
34:42
And someone who lives in a country where the purchasing power
34:46
parity is much,
34:47
SPEAKER_00: much lower is getting the same salary.
34:49
You could potentially be creating people in disadvantaged
34:55
countries who are the
34:56
SPEAKER_00: local equivalent of millionaires through doing this.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: That's super cool.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: It's not an approach that I've seen often or at all that I can recall.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: So if that's what they're doing, good for them.
35:12
I would really wonder if this company is publicly traded
35:15
because like that the
35:17
whole philosophy that they seem to have around this really
35:21
would kind of clash with
35:24
the rights of the shareholders type stuff that management teams
35:29
particularly in US
35:30
publicly traded companies have to kind of follow like legally
35:34
or else they you know
35:36
SPEAKER_00: they get in poo poo
35:37
um so I'm curious if they're publicly traded or not I guess
35:40
I'll find it when I go
35:41
and read the job that or whatever I guess I'll find out yeah um
35:45
one of the things
35:46
that I wanted to speak to um you mentioned that they link you
35:49
know the fact that
35:50
they link to uh knowing your legal rights making sure that
35:54
you're not discriminated
35:55
against like that that is that is pretty ballsy like it's a
35:58
bold move to do that
35:59
SPEAKER_02: and it reminds me of somebody who was telling me that
36:02
um so a company that someone works at like when they're when
36:07
they're terminating an
36:08
employee and this is Canadian specific so it's a little bit
36:10
different but when
36:11
they're terminating an employee one of the things that they put
36:14
in the termination
36:15
letter is that the company will pay for you to engage with an
36:20
employment lawyer for
36:22
SPEAKER_02: one hour
36:24
SPEAKER_02: And that reminds me of that, right?
36:26
SPEAKER_02: Because it is really bold.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: It's basically saying, we're not going to f*** you over.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: We did our due diligence.
36:32
SPEAKER_02: We're going to do everything by the book.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: And we're so confident that we're not doing anything,
36:38
SPEAKER_02: like that everything's above board,
36:39
that we will pay for you to go and have a meeting with a lawyer
36:43
to make sure that
36:44
SPEAKER_02: this is all,
36:45
SPEAKER_02: like,
36:46
SPEAKER_02: copcetic,
36:46
SPEAKER_02: right?
36:47
SPEAKER_02: Like, it's, I really like that.
36:49
SPEAKER_02: I really like it when companies are straight up, like,
36:53
SPEAKER_02: We're doing the right thing.
36:55
SPEAKER_02: We're not breaking any laws.
36:57
SPEAKER_02: You can go and verify that.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: We will pay for you to do it.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: So I just like that vibe.
37:02
SPEAKER_02: I think it's very confident and I appreciate that.
37:09
Nobody said we will pay for that and then in fine print dot dot
37:13
dot and deduct it
37:14
SPEAKER_00: from your severance?
37:16
SPEAKER_02: deducted from your severance.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
37:18
SPEAKER_02: It's just an extra, what is it?
37:19
SPEAKER_02: Like a few hundred dollars, right?
37:21
For an hour session just to get someone's eyes on it,
37:23
a professional's eyes.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: Who's going to be like, yeah.
37:26
And it also probably gives them points in their favor as well
37:30
that you're going
37:31
SPEAKER_02: above and beyond,
37:32
SPEAKER_02: right?
37:32
You're not just doing the bare minimum,
37:34
but that's specific determination.
37:36
So anything else in there that you wanted to make note of
37:40
before you guess the
37:42
SPEAKER_02: salary range for this role?
37:45
SPEAKER_00: No,
37:46
SPEAKER_00: I think I'm going to take a flyer on the salary,
37:49
and I think that I'm probably going to be wrong because
37:56
normally I think that
37:59
companies underpay relative to the value that the role creates
38:04
and what I think
38:05
SPEAKER_00: they should be paid.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: So I'm usually more than what the company posts,
38:10
SPEAKER_00: but this time I'm a little bit less certain of that value.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: that just so you know, in USD.
38:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's supposed to be US dollars.
38:20
So yeah,
38:22
happiness engineer,
38:25
customer support and success,
38:27
global remote HQ in San Francisco.
38:32
So fairly large company,
38:34
what do you think the salary range is for this role?
38:37
SPEAKER_00: Do they require a certain number of years of experience?
38:41
No,
38:41
no,
38:42
but there's no really no mention of that a so this This this is
38:46
could be entry-level.
38:47
It could be experienced Wow that makes it more challenging I am
38:52
gonna guess that
38:53
SPEAKER_00: this is ranged between 70,000 and 80,000 US dollars a year The range is
39:03
SPEAKER_02: 40,000 to 68,000 USD.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, good.
39:08
So I was I was way more generous than they were still my my
39:10
track record is still intact.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: That's pretty like a wild range to me.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: Like that is a big range.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: It's a big range.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a big range.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: They also mentioned that they are willing to go outside of that range.
39:26
SPEAKER_02: Like if and but who knows who knows what the criteria is,
39:30
SPEAKER_02: they mentioned it a little bit,
39:31
SPEAKER_02: but it's very vague.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay,
39:33
so that better negotiating skills are you a white man like what
39:37
is the what's the
39:38
criteria I don't know Jen don't speak ill of my people I'll
39:47
never not um so so yeah
39:50
so the range just for the range for a sec um so the the 40 to
39:54
60 was it 63
39:57
SPEAKER_00: Okay, 40 to 68.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: So what that kind of suggests to me is that they are,
40:05
they're actually casting a wide net that covers both
40:10
intermediate level and
40:12
SPEAKER_00: They want to capture people who fit in both buckets,
40:20
SPEAKER_00: but they're not differentiating between them in a classic kind of way,
40:25
SPEAKER_00: like you might see in a job ad for
40:27
like a bank or an insurance company where they say you know
40:30
customer support
40:31
engineer one customer support engineer two three four etc
40:36
they're not doing that
40:37
but that wide of a range with that low of a starting point kind
40:41
of suggests to me
40:42
SPEAKER_00: that that's what they're doing and there's nothing wrong with that like
40:46
SPEAKER_00: Cool, whatever.
40:47
And the fact that they say that they're willing to go outside
40:50
of that range also
40:52
SPEAKER_00: suggests that they might capture some people who they could say,
40:56
SPEAKER_00: oh,
40:56
SPEAKER_00: you know what?
40:57
You might actually be a team lead or a group director in this
41:01
part of the business.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: So we want to leave the door open to finding you through this that way.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of cool if that's what they're doing.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
41:12
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I like it.
41:15
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
41:17
I think that they talk a lot about fairness with the products
41:22
that they create
41:22
SPEAKER_02: themselves and the platforms,
41:25
SPEAKER_02: making it so that everyone has an equal and fair start.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: But then they talk about, here's the seller range, but...
41:32
There's some magical equation that means that you could
41:34
potentially get more,
41:35
SPEAKER_02: but we won't tell you necessarily what that is.
41:37
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
41:38
SPEAKER_02: That feels like it goes back a little bit on their values.
41:41
SPEAKER_02: So I'm not a big fan of that.
41:45
SPEAKER_02: But I don't know.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: So now is the time where we would... Paul's gonna go off screen.
41:54
He's gonna read the full job posting because I only read some
41:57
highlighted parts.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: I'll stick with the group here and chat a little bit.
42:02
And then when Paul comes back,
42:03
we're both going to rate the job posting two scores.
42:07
SPEAKER_02: One is on just the job posting itself, how it's written.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: Do we like the flow?
42:12
SPEAKER_02: Do we like the format?
42:13
SPEAKER_02: And then the second rating is on the job design itself.
42:16
SPEAKER_02: Is this a sustainable role?
42:17
SPEAKER_02: Does it make sense?
42:19
SPEAKER_02: What's missing?
42:21
SPEAKER_02: Et cetera.
42:22
SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to Paul's going to hop off.
42:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to give you the link to the job posting.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: and Paul will be right back.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: See you shortly.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: So, Paul, you had an opportunity to read the entire job posting.
42:46
SPEAKER_02: I don't think there was much left unsaid or unread.
42:50
I'm curious now to hear your thoughts on how you would rate the
42:55
job posting itself
42:56
SPEAKER_02: on a scale of 0 to 10.
42:59
What are your thoughts on how it was written and what's
43:02
mentioned in the job
43:03
posting and whether or not they kind of take all those boxes
43:05
about whatever
43:07
SPEAKER_02: requirements legally they might have and then beyond
43:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
43:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:13
we've said before on the show that sometimes we think that it's
43:17
a good thing that
43:18
SPEAKER_00: job ads be more like a novel than a checklist.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: And this is a pretty good demonstration of that.
43:27
Like the job ad is more pros and less bullet points,
43:31
like you said earlier.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't hate that, to be honest.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: The job ad, the way that it was structured, it really, really focused on
43:42
SPEAKER_00: kind of communicating what the company is looking for from a soft skills
43:48
perspective and the kind of person that they're after from that
43:52
soft skills
43:53
SPEAKER_00: perspective.
43:54
I've hammered on a little bit before on the show about how I
43:58
just dislike that we
44:01
SPEAKER_00: use job history,
44:04
SPEAKER_00: experience,
44:05
SPEAKER_00: education,
44:06
SPEAKER_00: and where you've worked as a proxy for competence.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: And this ad seems to not do that.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: They're not looking for proxies for your competence.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: They're looking for you to tell them why you're competent.
44:21
And then presumably in the interview,
44:24
that'll be assessed and teased out a little bit more.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: So I quite liked that.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: How would I rate this job ad the way that it was written?
44:34
SPEAKER_00: Really well.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: 9 out of 10.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: This was good.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: This was a really, really well-written job ad.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: The couple of little things that I think could have been better,
44:49
SPEAKER_00: the Report 2 title wasn't listed.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: And they also didn't talk about the structure of the group.
44:56
Like they talked about,
44:57
we're a remote company,
44:58
et cetera,
44:59
et cetera,
44:59
et cetera.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: But they didn't really give me a sense of how this group
45:04
operates from a structural standpoint,
45:06
from an organizational standpoint.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: I kind of would have liked that a little bit because I find with remote
45:10
SPEAKER_00: organizations,
45:12
SPEAKER_00: when you don't have that grounding,
45:14
SPEAKER_00: it gets very,
45:15
SPEAKER_00: very easy for people to kind of drift off into their own orbit.
45:18
Like if you're not kind of in an office or like tightly
45:22
communicating with people
45:24
SPEAKER_00: routinely,
45:24
SPEAKER_00: or you don't have that kind of context of how the organization functions,
45:28
SPEAKER_00: it's easy to just like
45:30
SPEAKER_00: Go off into left field and then you're kind of lost.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: So I would have liked to have seen that.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: I docked them a little bit for that,
45:36
but it's also not the end of the world because this is a
45:39
customer support role.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Even if it is branded something else,
45:43
SPEAKER_00: like you're kind of going to know what you're getting into.
45:46
Your general structure is like a whole bunch of agents,
45:49
maybe a manager,
45:50
maybe a director.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: There is some structure there.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: You're going to know that, but I still would have liked to have seen it.
45:56
the customer centric focus is very very obvious and I love that
45:59
they got big big
46:00
points from me for that one other thing I liked was that they
46:05
were honest that the
46:06
role might change they were like this is what it looks like
46:08
today in six months
46:09
might look like something else they were honest about that
46:12
that's good because when
46:13
SPEAKER_00: you sign up for one thing and you get something else
46:17
animosity and discontent they they kind of start to grow in
46:21
that environment right
46:22
like when you walk into something that you were not counting on
46:25
so good for them
46:26
points there for sure yeah the one other thing that I thought
46:31
was a little bit kind
46:32
of goofy that I did kind of hold against them was the part
46:37
where they say and I'm
46:38
just gonna read it out here again to kind of bring the point
46:43
home they say yeah
46:55
SPEAKER_00: We help maintain a balance in society,
46:58
creating and continually refining powerful tools people can use
47:02
to compete fairly,
47:04
SPEAKER_00: regardless of income,
47:05
SPEAKER_00: gender,
47:05
SPEAKER_00: politics,
47:06
SPEAKER_00: language,
47:07
SPEAKER_00: or where they live in the world.
47:10
you know I get what they're going for I kind of like that like
47:12
the I don't know who
47:14
this company is but if they're building digital tools web tools
47:18
platform tools that
47:19
let someone run their own business from some remote place where
47:24
they wouldn't
47:24
normally have an economic opportunity cool but it's a little
47:28
bit disingenuous to
47:30
kind of throw in income gender politics language where you live
47:33
in the world as
47:34
SPEAKER_00: things that they're trying to combat no you're not you're not sorry
47:40
SPEAKER_00: I found that disingenuous,
47:41
SPEAKER_00: didn't really like it,
47:42
SPEAKER_00: but pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, 9 out of 10 on how the job ad itself was written.
47:48
SPEAKER_02: And what about the job design itself?
47:52
SPEAKER_02: Like we talked about, is it sustainable?
47:54
SPEAKER_02: Does it make sense?
47:56
Yeah,
47:56
what are your thoughts on from an org design,
47:58
job design perspective?
48:01
SPEAKER_00: From what we could tease out of it, I also rated this pretty well.
48:05
SPEAKER_00: Now, they didn't talk about the structure in an explicit sense.
48:11
So we don't have a whole lot of information about how this role
48:17
is going to fit into the org.
48:18
SPEAKER_00: That can make it a little bit challenging sometimes when we do this.
48:23
But there were signs in here of really good things,
48:26
I think,
48:26
from a sustainability perspective.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: They talk about six hours a day.
48:31
there's still for me ambiguity on you know is that your
48:34
established workday or is
48:35
there more time beyond that where you're doing non-customer
48:40
facing stuff if it is a
48:42
six-hour workday highly sustainable you know 30-hour workweek
48:47
even if the work is
48:48
very very stressful and very intense a 30-hour workweek gives
48:52
you sufficient time
48:53
to to kind of decompress and unwind and get yourself kind of
48:56
right and again so if
48:57
SPEAKER_00: it is a 30-hour workweek cool good for them
49:00
They talked about the two shifts two weekend shifts where
49:04
you'll have a loo time
49:05
back on the weekday thing So like they're saying you're gonna
49:09
work two weekends a
49:10
month or two weekend days a month But we'll give you time off
49:14
during the week to
49:15
SPEAKER_00: compensate for that.
49:15
That's a sign of sustainability You know for me when you're
49:19
you're talking about
49:19
SPEAKER_00: someone's wellness.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: So that's really that's really good.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: I would give them bonus points for that They talk about in here as well
49:30
SPEAKER_00: an open vacation policy.
49:32
SPEAKER_00: Now,
49:32
SPEAKER_00: they don't really talk about what that means,
49:34
SPEAKER_00: but if it means unlimited PTO,
49:38
SPEAKER_00: we've talked about unlimited PTO on the show before.
49:40
And what happens in practice with a lot of organizations that
49:45
have unlimited PTO is
49:47
SPEAKER_00: that people end up taking less vacation time.
49:50
because they feel a stigma around taking it and there are cases
49:55
where people who
49:56
are in management or in leadership who can't take as much PTO
49:59
as other people start
50:00
to resent it and start to hold it against people that do take
50:04
it so if it's
50:04
SPEAKER_00: unlimited PTO that can create some cultural toxicity however out of any
50:11
organization that we've come across that talks about unlimited
50:14
PTO I would say that
50:17
SPEAKER_00: this one looks like
50:20
the one that might be able to actually combat those toxic
50:26
things that come along
50:27
SPEAKER_00: with unlimited PTO.
50:28
Maybe this organization is the special golden nugget that can
50:32
actually make it work.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: And if that's the case,
50:35
SPEAKER_00: Highly sustainable.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: Good for you.
50:38
I'm not a big fan of unlimited PTO for the part of it where it
50:44
basically means that
50:45
SPEAKER_00: there's no accrued value in vacation time for an employee.
50:48
SPEAKER_00: So if there is a severance thing, that's a big reason why they do it.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:53
SPEAKER_00: If you are cut loose and you're offered a package,
50:56
SPEAKER_00: you don't get paid for your vacation under unlimited PTO policies.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: So I don't like that.
51:02
I would much prefer some sort of hybrid arrangement where in
51:05
your contract it'll
51:06
SPEAKER_00: say something like,
51:08
SPEAKER_00: we will value your unlimited PTO at the equivalent of two weeks.
51:12
So if there is like a severance,
51:14
it's valued at two weeks and you get something for it.
51:17
SPEAKER_00: I would want something like that.
51:18
SPEAKER_02: So we don't know.
51:21
we don't know that they're offering an unlimited PTO we don't
51:25
we don't we don't I
51:26
am I am very much just assuming that open vacations I've worked
51:32
at a couple
51:33
companies with unlimited PTO and I freaking loved it so I have
51:36
very different views
51:37
on it I think it depends on like whether or not the environment
51:40
or the system is is
51:41
the right place to be able to take your your PTO and then in
51:45
Canada too there are
51:46
SPEAKER_02: protections where like yes you could be on unlimited PTO
51:50
they would still have to pay you out like there are protections
51:53
it depends on how
51:54
much of that time you took you still to meet the minimum legal
51:57
requirements but can
52:01
you remind me what you said for the job design what was your
52:03
rating I haven't even
52:05
got there yet I've been yapping like a mofo this no this this
52:15
was a great find like
52:16
SPEAKER_00: this job ad has made me think some things for sure
52:20
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so I was kind of coming to my rating here.
52:24
I see enough signs in here of the role design being a positive
52:29
one that I'm going
52:29
SPEAKER_00: to give this an 8 out of 10.
52:32
Now,
52:32
practice and what's on this piece of paper might be a little
52:35
bit different.
52:36
SPEAKER_00: Don't know.
52:38
SPEAKER_00: But everything that's in this job ad is quite positive.
52:41
SPEAKER_00: It's quite positive.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: A lot of the signals that I look for are here.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: And I like that.
52:49
Now one thing that people who are kind of thinking about if
52:54
you're applying for
52:54
this role or a role like this and you're working remote from
52:58
another country is
52:59
SPEAKER_00: that you probably don't have any actual legal protections
53:03
SPEAKER_00: Even if the employer is using an EOR,
53:07
SPEAKER_00: an employer record platform,
53:09
SPEAKER_00: you don't have the protections that you might think that you would have.
53:14
So you really have to be willing to take a leap of faith that
53:16
these guys aren't
53:17
going to just like screw you and that what they say is actually
53:21
what they mean.
53:22
that can be a big leap for some people not saying it doesn't
53:26
work out like I know
53:26
tons of people that work for for companies that that don't have
53:31
don't have a
53:33
company like like a corporate entity here in Canada and it's
53:36
fine but you just have
53:37
to be prepared for that to perhaps be a thing yeah for sure my
53:43
ratings for job
53:44
design sorry the job at itself nine out of ten I think it was
53:48
great it's missing
53:49
SPEAKER_02: that reporting structure
53:51
I don't love that they talked about the salary range saying
53:55
like you know certain
53:56
individuals might be paid beyond the salary range I don't like
54:00
that you're talking
54:01
about being fair and that doesn't sound very fair to me but I
54:04
think that's more of
54:05
a job design than it is a job ad so for the job ad itself I
54:10
think they go above and
54:10
SPEAKER_02: beyond I think it's one of the best ones that we've seen so far
54:14
SPEAKER_02: For the job design itself, 8 out of 10.
54:18
SPEAKER_02: Again, reporting structure, we need to understand that.
54:21
SPEAKER_02: They link out to everything, which is great.
54:25
SPEAKER_02: Everything is available for you to hear more information,
54:29
SPEAKER_02: but it would be nice to know structurally how things work.
54:35
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, just missing a couple little bits and pieces for me.
54:38
SPEAKER_02: One thing I wanted to say is that we're talking about like,
54:41
this is probably our highest rated job posting that we've
54:44
roasted so far in the
54:45
SPEAKER_02: show.
54:46
and I did a little bit of research and I looked on their glass
54:49
door and it's so
54:51
funny because like on paper it sounds great in lived experience
54:56
not so much the
54:57
rating is a three out of five which is not the worst I've seen
55:02
but it's certainly
55:03
not great for all the things that the job description the job
55:06
posting is is saying
55:07
SPEAKER_02: you would think that this is like some kind of a utopia place to go work
55:12
but the Glassdoor reviews say something else with a 33% CEO
55:16
approval rating and
55:17
most of the negative comments are about the CEO and so it seems
55:23
that the CEO and
55:24
the executive leadership in general really impacts people's
55:28
ability to enjoy
55:29
working there so in practice it sounds like they have a lot of
55:32
great things going I
55:33
get it Glassdoor is where you go to write you know disgruntled
55:37
employees writing
55:38
SPEAKER_02: about their terrible experience um
55:40
SPEAKER_02: I get that.
55:41
But if somebody has had an experience so negative that they are
55:47
compelled to take
55:48
SPEAKER_02: time out of their day to write a review about it,
55:52
SPEAKER_02: it says something right there too,
55:54
SPEAKER_02: right?
55:54
SPEAKER_02: Like that platform itself tells you a lot about organization.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: How many reviews are there?
56:02
SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of reviews.
56:07
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
56:07
SPEAKER_02: I can't see from where I'm looking.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it's not like three or four.
56:13
SPEAKER_02: It's like... Oh, no, no, no.
56:16
there are tons in the most recent there are a ton and so
56:19
there's some good ones
56:20
there are some positive reviews but we all know that the
56:22
company forces people to
56:24
make those positive reviews and there are yeah the negative
56:29
ones really talk about
56:31
the CEO rambling about how AI is going to take over everything
56:35
and so it is one of
56:38
SPEAKER_02: those things where yes on paper it sounds really great and this would
56:42
I think a lot of people would see this job posting and like
56:44
Dino said they would be
56:45
flooded with applications Dino mentioned that in the chat for
56:49
sure but do your
56:51
research and read some of those reviews and really understand
56:56
before you apply what
56:57
it's really like to work there because you mentioned it a few
57:00
times Paul like they
57:02
say certain things but is that window dressing or not is this
57:06
actually the reality
57:07
SPEAKER_02: have they promoted tons of people in the customer support
57:11
department or have they promoted like one and then that's just
57:14
kind of what they
57:15
use as their little spiel going forward from now on so again
57:20
eyes wide open that's
57:21
what we're trying to do here it sounds like a really great role
57:25
but there's always
57:25
more to the story than than what's written on paper so yeah I
57:30
think we can um I
57:31
SPEAKER_02: think we can consider this roast this roast this post roasted
57:37
I'm going to grab a fork and just stick the fork in the roast
57:40
and that'll be done.
57:41
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, everyone, for joining us.
57:43
SPEAKER_02: You can join us again next week,
57:46
SPEAKER_02: same time on Substack Live as we record another Roast the Post episode.
57:52
Thanks for joining us on Roast the Post,
57:54
the story behind the bullet points.
57:56
If today's breakdown made job postings just a little easier to
58:00
understand or at
58:01
SPEAKER_00: least a little less painful,
58:03
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58:04
We're on YouTube and all the major podcast apps,
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so follow us wherever you like to listen.
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SPEAKER_00: And if you spot a posting that feels off,
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SPEAKER_00: confusing,
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SPEAKER_00: oddly ambitious,
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SPEAKER_00: or just plain entertaining,
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SPEAKER_00: send it our way.
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SPEAKER_00: We love digging into real examples from real people.
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link in the show notes for more we'll see you on the other side
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of the mulberry
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SPEAKER_00: bush with another post to roast next week