Latest / Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce / 351. Why Did I Text Him Back? Divorce, Self-Abandonment & The Pain I Couldn't Sit With

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351. Why Did I Text Him Back? Divorce, Self-Abandonment & The Pain I Couldn't Sit With · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

0:50
SPEAKER_04: Good morning, Sunshines.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: Good morning.
0:54
SPEAKER_04: We have a hot topic for today.
0:58
SPEAKER_04: That I know so many of our listeners, so many of the women we work with really grapple with this thing we're gonna chat about.
1:06
SPEAKER_04: But in the meantime, it sounds like we all had weekends where we like got what we needed a little bit this weekend.
1:14
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
1:15
SPEAKER_04: Love that.
1:16
SPEAKER_04: And uh we met on Friday to further refine our retreat plans because we're getting ready to go to retreat with our current group of women, and that's so exciting.
1:28
SPEAKER_04: I'm so excited.
1:30
SPEAKER_04: The beach and healing and each other.
1:34
SPEAKER_04: Also getting to see each other in person for a number of days in a row.
1:37
SPEAKER_04: So cool.
1:39
SPEAKER_04: I'm such a big crier, so that's gonna happen.
1:41
SPEAKER_04: That's gonna happen.
1:42
SPEAKER_04: It's so funny to think how close we get with people on the internet who we've never met in real life, and now we're gonna get to meet all of these women in real life.
1:49
SPEAKER_04: Like they're like our people, right?
1:51
SPEAKER_04: They're like our little chickens.
1:52
SPEAKER_04: Like, yeah.
1:54
SPEAKER_04: Hug their necks.
1:55
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
1:57
unknown: Yeah.
1:57
SPEAKER_04: Last year when we picked that group up from the airport, I definitely I'm not a huge crier, and I definitely had wet eyes.
2:05
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:06
SPEAKER_04: So emotional.
2:07
SPEAKER_04: I was bawling, so it didn't matter.
2:09
SPEAKER_04: Go ahead.
2:10
SPEAKER_04: What was that?
2:11
SPEAKER_04: I said I was bawling.
2:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
2:13
SPEAKER_04: On brand, on brand.
2:15
SPEAKER_04: We must have balance in our team.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'm gonna say this quickly, right?
2:20
SPEAKER_00: Because I want the women out there to know this.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: I had one of our clients.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if she rated us, right?
2:28
SPEAKER_00: But she was talking about who would the biggest crier be on the team, right?
2:31
SPEAKER_00: Like among the three of us.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: And she was shocked to find out it was me.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if I come on as a hard ass or what.
2:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you're the one that throws the most F bombs around, right?
2:40
SPEAKER_00: I know, but I I can I can throw F bombs and also pushy and I cry a lot.
2:46
SPEAKER_04: So you all can, right?
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:49
SPEAKER_04: Soft and strong, soft and strong.
2:52
SPEAKER_04: That's the idea.
2:58
SPEAKER_03: Hi, love.
2:59
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave, and build back your confidence.
3:09
SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Don Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer, and divorcee.
3:15
SPEAKER_03: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce.
3:30
SPEAKER_04: Total sidebar.
3:31
SPEAKER_04: I met with a functional medicine doctor yesterday on Metopause Love Lounge, and we dug into all of the underpinnings of PCOS and high testosterone.
3:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
3:41
SPEAKER_04: Anyways, carry on.
3:42
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
3:43
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, please.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: Yes, please.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: I think it's getting more and more prevalent because there's, especially on my feed or whatever, because there's so many women that have known their entire life something's wrong, but it just gets, they just get put on birth control.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: They just get, you know what I mean?
4:01
SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, it's normal.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: It's just your age or whatever.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: And it's not, it's not normal.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: No.
4:06
SPEAKER_04: And this functional medicine practitioner, she understands the adverse childhood experiences scale.
4:12
SPEAKER_04: She understands inherited energetic patterns.
4:15
SPEAKER_04: It was unbelievable.
4:17
SPEAKER_04: Uh, when I talked about disassociation, she was like, Yes, this was, it was just like, wow, she was the provider that I would have needed when I started with functional medicine.
4:24
SPEAKER_04: But even functional medicine doesn't function in the way she does, I think, very often.
4:29
SPEAKER_04: And she talked about how so many women just say, like, it's hormones, it's my hormones, but they don't understand.
4:34
SPEAKER_04: And she and I just nerded out on this.
4:36
SPEAKER_04: That yes, your hormones are sort of the downstream most easy to point to thing, but it's like the level of stress you have in your body from whatever the things are, whether it's life or traumas or whatever, that affects your master glands, your hypothalamus, your pituitary, your adrenals, your thyroid, your what your ovaries, blah, blah, blah.
4:55
SPEAKER_04: Your, and then it affects your insulin resistance and on and on and on, and then it gets into your liver.
5:00
SPEAKER_04: And right.
5:01
SPEAKER_04: So what we're pointing to is hormones is really like big umbrella stress down to how it lands in your organs and your glands.
5:08
SPEAKER_04: And then the hormones just she was wow, the cat's meow.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I can't wait to go.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: Maybe we should have her on.
5:17
SPEAKER_02: I vote yes.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:19
SPEAKER_02: I do think it's especially with women in fight or flight, that I think it's because your body's always in fight or flight.
5:25
SPEAKER_02: You don't know the difference.
5:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:28
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
5:29
SPEAKER_04: Here is the$10 billion question for our listeners.
5:36
SPEAKER_04: Why do you think so many women find themselves texting him back, even though they promised themselves they would not?
5:46
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to hurt people's feelings.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: Don't hurt their feelings.
5:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:52
SPEAKER_02: I I really think that so many women text back.
5:56
SPEAKER_02: I know I did from coming from a place of needing to be, needing to be validated, needing to be needing the intention, needing the validation, needing the um, but I did it in kind of a be manipulation way in which I wanted to have the I wanted to feel like I had um I was being the more Christian, the more um level.
6:21
SPEAKER_02: Right.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: The the better, the better of the two.
6:25
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna win even if he moved on faster.
6:28
SPEAKER_02: Like I was gonna be elevated.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: And so when I texted him, it was very um, I took care of this, or I did this, or um, looking for the thank you, looking for the um, what am I missing?
6:45
SPEAKER_02: You know, like looking for him to realize what he left, you know, type thing.
6:51
SPEAKER_02: Um curious if Tiffany has a different answer.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm also gonna hurt feelings.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: Um for me, the reason why I texted back is because I needed to feel needed.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: I had taken on such a caretaker role in my marriage that yes, I had my daughter, but she needed me in a different way.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: But to know that another adult was needing me, was relying on me for emotional management and emotional support.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and then it was like all of these things that I wanted in my marriage so badly, like him being able to be vulnerable with me, but he really couldn't.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: He was doing that post-divorce, right?
7:25
SPEAKER_00: And so it was like these little nuggets of like, oh, he's finally letting me in.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:31
SPEAKER_04: No.
7:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
7:33
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
7:34
SPEAKER_04: There's so much I you know, we've not talked about this in detail, I don't think, on the podcast.
7:40
SPEAKER_04: But there's so much mimicry in the world.
7:43
SPEAKER_04: And it's um like it's something people do, it's a it's an adaptive strategy, right?
7:48
SPEAKER_04: Where we develop this capacity to mimic certain human behaviors like vulnerability or authenticity or groundedness or presence.
7:59
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
8:00
SPEAKER_04: But like what a key thing that when we're more grounded in our nervous systems, we can sense the difference more between mimicry and authentic vulnerability or authentic availability.
8:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
8:13
SPEAKER_04: And I think when your nervous system is buzzing a million miles an hour, you can't perceive or discern the difference between mimicry and the real deal.
8:23
SPEAKER_04: So Yeah, I would agree.
8:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
8:26
SPEAKER_04: Interesting concept.
8:27
SPEAKER_04: So you needed to be needed.
8:28
SPEAKER_04: I would have said something very similar.
8:32
SPEAKER_04: Like I could not tolerate separation or aloneness like on any level.
8:39
SPEAKER_04: So uh I would very easily abandon what I needed for what would give me pain relief in a moment.
8:51
SPEAKER_04: Right.
8:52
SPEAKER_04: Like could not tolerate the pain of separation.
8:57
SPEAKER_04: And you could sort of see that through my backstory, where I would always feel soothed by knowing maybe there were one, two, or even three people who I could date if I wanted to.
9:13
SPEAKER_04: Like this redundancy, right?
9:14
SPEAKER_04: When one leaves, it's okay.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
9:18
SPEAKER_04: There are more.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: Sort of my mom always used to tell me.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: My mom always used to tell me when one bus pulls out, another one is pulling in, it's not fine.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: So that's how I was conditioned.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: But I I resonate with that, Don, because it's like, especially when my earlier dating, I always had those guy friends or people that I had hooked up with before that I knew I could always go back to if I ever needed to.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: So I was never like truly alone.
9:44
SPEAKER_04: It's like stockpiling toilet paper during COVID.
9:48
SPEAKER_04: Just don't want to run out of it.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: It's a Tuesday episode, and I want to say it so bad.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: Can we say stockpiling dick?
9:57
SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry.
9:58
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
9:59
SPEAKER_04: That's hysterical.
10:00
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't tolerate it.
10:03
SPEAKER_04: So it's like when you start to pull that thread, though, there are so many reasons that women text back even when they say they can't.
10:11
SPEAKER_04: But at the end of the day, it boils back to like, I don't have a sense of security or well-being or wholeness.
10:19
SPEAKER_04: Me, myself, and I.
10:20
SPEAKER_04: So I need to reach outside of me, right?
10:23
SPEAKER_04: Like, I need you to give me something for me to feel okay.
10:27
SPEAKER_04: We've been having this conversation lately about self-abandonment, right?
10:31
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna abandon my whatever agreement I made with myself or my therapist.
10:36
SPEAKER_04: There's so many hysterical reels about like my therapist and I made an agreement.
10:41
SPEAKER_04: Me leaving my therapist's office, all bets are off.
10:44
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and so self-abandonment is this like sort of new kitsch concept, but it's not new, right?
10:49
SPEAKER_04: We we used to call it codependency, but that confused people because people are like, I'm not dependent, I'm independent, I'm like too independent, I'm rigidly self-sufficient.
11:02
SPEAKER_04: But it's like you you may think you are, but really rate, we're addicted to things like being right, texting back, being hyper busy, like being in control, all these things that we use to keep our nervous systems from crashing and burning.
11:21
SPEAKER_04: All these things we do to keep ourselves from feeling the pain we've been suppressing and hiding and denying and like bypassing.
11:28
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
11:28
SPEAKER_04: Is that better said?
11:30
SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't want to feel this pain, so I'm not going to slow down long enough to recognize codependency or self-abandonment.
11:42
SPEAKER_04: And I think the addiction isn't to the isn't to your ex, right?
11:46
SPEAKER_04: It's not him.
11:48
SPEAKER_04: It's like it's like addiction to being in control or addiction to just getting pain relief from the underlying insecurity or addiction to, I don't know, what would you call it?
11:58
SPEAKER_04: Like what are the things that uh us or the women we work with, we see them like struggling, like addicted to to validation or right, rather than feeling a sense of knowing who I am and knowing that the choices I'm making are grounded or aligned, right?
12:14
SPEAKER_04: We need permission and validation from the people.
12:17
SPEAKER_04: It's like all these things that we just, if you really were to look deep into our existence, we are just so anxious and insecure.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: I even think there's a little bit of addiction addicted to the drama because if it's um Tiffany wrote about that this week in her newsletter.
12:36
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
12:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the intensity.
12:39
SPEAKER_02: I think that women, yes.
12:41
SPEAKER_02: Intensity.
12:42
SPEAKER_02: I don't need to say anything else.
12:43
SPEAKER_02: The the not being able to be calm, not being able to be alone, you needing even if it's bad attention, it's still attention, addiction.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: That was me.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember back to being as early as probably 14 when my looks started changing drastically and I started getting a lot of attention from boys.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's when I I developed this ego state.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: And I even feel the emptiness of it now in my life.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: Like it's still very prevalent.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: I interpreted my lack of ego when I started to heal as like not being motivated.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Because everything felt calm and quiet inside, and I wasn't really humming anymore.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: I didn't feel that need to like really push myself.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, especially when it came to like career things like that, when I got out of corporate, I was operating from such an ego state for such a long time.
13:39
SPEAKER_04: So when you started healing, what stands out to you about that?
13:43
SPEAKER_04: Like, what's the compare and contrast?
13:45
SPEAKER_04: Like quietness felt like a lack of motivation.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: Like quietness for me, like just being normal and calm and not waking up with this hustle mentality every single day of like I need it all, I want it all, I have to have it all.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I have to be it all.
13:59
SPEAKER_05: Got it.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: Like that was a weird transition for me.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: So, like, I don't know if I'm explaining it properly, but it's like I needed to be on top of my game.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: I needed to have that attention from people.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: It was a dopamine hit.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: It was like a high, whether I was getting it from my career or from dating, like I needed attention.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: How to have it.
14:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
14:18
SPEAKER_04: Somebody said to me, Oh gosh, Grace, it's probably three or four.
14:21
SPEAKER_04: So, like enough years ago, but like not eons of years ago, someone said to me, like, you know, if you didn't do a single thing today, you would still be worthy.
14:32
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, What?
14:34
SPEAKER_04: That's it.
14:35
SPEAKER_04: I was constantly having to prove that's so impactful.
14:37
SPEAKER_04: It does not compute.
14:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
14:39
SPEAKER_04: And like today, I totally get it, right?
14:41
SPEAKER_04: Like today, I'm like, oh yeah, like if all I ever did was mother myself and my child, like I'm winning at life, literally.
14:50
SPEAKER_04: Right.
14:51
SPEAKER_04: But back then that did not compute fully.
14:55
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, addicted to productivity or um and yeah, if I had sat still, I there would have been a voice in the back of my mind saying, like, run and chase or die, give or take, right?
15:09
SPEAKER_04: Like you're not gonna be okay if you don't keep doing these things.
15:13
SPEAKER_04: Like something bad is going to happen.
15:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
15:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
15:16
SPEAKER_04: If you don't keep going.
15:17
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
15:17
SPEAKER_04: And so the text and back thing is all woven into this sort of bigger picture, right?
15:23
SPEAKER_04: It's all part of this sort of larger tapestry of there's a lot of pain I've been outrunning for a lot of years.
15:31
SPEAKER_04: And um, yeah.
15:33
SPEAKER_04: So what is actually happening inside a woman in that moment right before they hit send on the text message?
15:41
SPEAKER_04: What is she maybe experiencing?
15:44
SPEAKER_00: Somatically, I think it's a flutter, right?
15:47
SPEAKER_00: It's a flutter inside when you start feeling this disconnect in yourself.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: Like for me, early on post-divorce, I needed that constant attention or to feel like I was needed because I couldn't really sit with myself.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: I didn't feel good enough on my own unless I was being pursued, unless something was happening.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: So it's like anytime if he would text me and need something or want to share something about his day or whatever, it's like I grabbed on to any opportunity to engage with that.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: And so it's kind of like when I would receive the text really from anybody, right?
16:20
SPEAKER_00: Let's just say attention in general, because that was my MO.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: It was more like in that moment I felt loved, wanted, desired, not lonely anymore.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: It's like I was grabbing and reaching and I didn't want that feeling to end.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: Because for me, post-divorce, being alone, that loneliness felt all-consuming.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't tolerate being enough on my own.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: Like I could not tolerate any sort of still, like nothing.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: And I've said this before, like when my daughter was with her dad, I had to make plans, could not sit right in my condo by myself.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: Oh my God, it was deafening.
16:53
SPEAKER_04: I relate to that.
16:55
SPEAKER_04: And it showed up in a lot of ways, like not being able to fall asleep without the TV on, and I would put the same movie on repeat, right?
17:02
SPEAKER_04: So it would be familiar, almost like a parent in the room kind of thing.
17:06
SPEAKER_04: But for me, right before hitting send, I would describe it more as like a pressure building inside of me.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: That's a mm-hmm.
17:12
SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
17:13
SPEAKER_04: That was gonna cause some sort of relief.
17:16
SPEAKER_04: Like a yeah.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: That's how that's how I would have described it.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's uh perseverating over the same thing and just like he needs to know, he needs to know.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: It's almost convincing myself, and then as soon as I let him, you know, push send and got that hit, the sensation calmed down disappears.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: For me, it was like not being able to breathe until I got the text.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Like I would it was like I could finally take a breath when I knew somebody needed me.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: And I wasn't just alone in the world or alone in my day, if that made sense.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, unless I knew somebody was thinking about me.
17:52
SPEAKER_04: There's like a panky breathe.
17:54
SPEAKER_04: You're saying fluttery, right?
17:55
SPEAKER_04: Like it's yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
17:58
SPEAKER_04: So interesting, right?
17:59
SPEAKER_04: And so what I want women to hear is this thing about texting him back is not a small thing, right?
18:06
SPEAKER_04: So when you get frustrated that you're in that cycle, it is, it may look like a small thing because it's texting him back, but it is part of a much larger picture with attachment-related underpinnings, um, identity-related underpinnings, trauma, anxiety, like nervous system wiring, your brain map, it's like actually fruit off of like the largest tree.
18:32
SPEAKER_04: And all you're sort of seeing in this moment about why did I text him back is like just this tiny little piece of the puzzle that's part of this much larger picture.
18:42
SPEAKER_04: So I was gonna ask y'all why reaching out feels like relief in the moment, even if it causes more pain later.
18:48
SPEAKER_04: But I think we've sort of touched on that, right?
18:50
SPEAKER_04: It's like the there is just a pain cycle happening inside of us that feels bigger than us.
18:57
SPEAKER_04: Does that land like the pain cycle feels bigger than my ability to interrupt the cycle?
19:02
SPEAKER_04: It's like I have to do the repetition and the compulsion or something like that, or else I can't.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Because let me tell you something.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: This relationship that I'm in now started out the same way because I didn't heal that part of myself yet, right?
19:12
SPEAKER_00: So it was like if I didn't get the good morning text, if I didn't hear from him in a couple hours, like that was the level.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: Like now I can comfortably go hours and hours, you know what I mean, during the day without hearing anything without the text, and I'm fine in my nervous system.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: But it took me a really long time to get there because I was so conditioned.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: And so it's like letting women know if they're not addressing these things, it is going to follow you into your dating and it is gonna follow you into your next relationship.
19:39
SPEAKER_02: Every relationship.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:42
SPEAKER_04: So next week we're gonna talk a little bit about food and what it does, right?
19:48
SPEAKER_04: Very similar, like about the pain cycle that it uh, because food actually acts on our cortisol.
19:53
SPEAKER_04: It reduces cortisol in the moment, but anyways, that's next week.
19:56
SPEAKER_04: But then just cause we're gonna keep looking at right, like these pain cycles and what we've been doing to avoid them.
20:03
SPEAKER_04: And and yeah, it's you can't there's it's not the thing you can just sort of muscle out of the way.
20:08
SPEAKER_04: If you're not treating the whole tree, right, the fruit is always gonna be off.
20:14
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
20:14
SPEAKER_04: Why does loneliness make us abandon ourselves in ways we would never consider when we're feeling grounded?
20:23
SPEAKER_04: Oh, so, so good.
20:25
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I know for a fact when I was post-divorced that loneliness caused me to betray my own values.
21:23
SPEAKER_04: In ways that caused permanent, permanent alteration to my vessel.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: I should be dead in a ditch somewhere.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: I say that all the time.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: It took me a really long time to make peace with situations I put myself in, things that I had done post-divorce because I was so lonely.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: It took me a really long time to get and cycle through the shame and the self-hatred.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: And I I say this before, nobody destroyed me more post-divorce than I did.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: Like I was the one that did that to myself.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that being in those situations and settings where you you are, and it is, it is a moral total abandonment of self that happened to me post-divorce for years after until I could stop the cycle.
22:09
SPEAKER_04: In Al-Anon, we would it was well, in the any of the 12 steps, right?
22:13
SPEAKER_04: But I was in Al-Anon at the time, talked about moral, emotional, and spiritual bankruptcy.
22:18
SPEAKER_04: It's like when you've outrun your humanity for so long trying to escape your pain, right?
22:24
SPEAKER_04: We we reach for all of these things.
22:26
SPEAKER_04: And yeah, I think um loneliness has been a theme in my life from a very young age, being an only child who moved away from my entire family system at a very young age.
22:38
SPEAKER_04: We moved to a barrier island where it was just me and my two parents, aka like the the trauma, the trauma house.
22:46
SPEAKER_04: And just yeah, an only child on a barrier island with two very traumatized parents and that loneliness.
22:52
SPEAKER_04: It it was like of me until I treated it and I thought marriage was going to stem the pain.
22:59
SPEAKER_04: Like my marriage was actually part of my pain relief cycle.
23:03
SPEAKER_04: I didn't get married because I was deeply in love.
23:05
SPEAKER_04: I sure thought I was, right?
23:07
SPEAKER_04: I got married because I was trying to find a solution that would cause that loneliness to go away permanently, and it did not, right?
23:16
SPEAKER_04: Because it was in me.
23:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
23:19
SPEAKER_04: And I think I wish more people sort of understood that that loneliness is a me problem, not a we problem.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
23:28
SPEAKER_04: Because so many of us, I also think we knew, right?
23:32
SPEAKER_04: We say, like, oh, there was this moment before we got married, and I just knew.
23:35
SPEAKER_05: Right.
23:35
SPEAKER_04: And yeah, that was like a huge form of self abandonment.
23:39
SPEAKER_04: That, you know, just feeling like such a lonely being when I saw all these signs for very dangerous, reckless addiction before I got married, but still self-abandoned by continuing and going forward with the marriage.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: And I've said a lot, I've never been as lonely on my own than I was in the wrong relationships.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: That's a different kind of loneliness.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: And I remember like you, Don, feeling like my marriage was gonna fix and cure and I was gonna be able to escape.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: And I was going 600 miles away from my family to embrace a military community.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: And it was like a whole different life, right?
24:18
SPEAKER_00: I was creating a whole different identity because I was running so desperately from myself and and all of the things that I had fucked up and all of that.
24:26
SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
24:28
SPEAKER_04: My ex's family would have these big Christmas celebrations, like this big Italian Christmas Eve, and it was rowdy and full, and there was just the delicious smell of all this food, and and then Christmas morning, there were piles of presents, and it's like it's so interesting now that I look at it now, right?
24:46
SPEAKER_04: It's like the image of what I didn't have is what I thought would fill the hole.
24:51
SPEAKER_04: But it's like P.S.
24:54
SPEAKER_04: on Christmas Eve, most of them were drunk or high, or you know what I mean?
24:59
SPEAKER_04: Like it's like, and then Christmas morning, it was about the gifts and the things, but like the relationships were fractured or like superficial on a level, or right, we had these things, but we didn't have a grounded sense of security.
25:13
SPEAKER_04: Like it's fascinating, but when you're not connected with yourself, you can't discern or perceive these things.
25:20
SPEAKER_04: I couldn't perceive that they weren't going to solve the problem.
25:25
SPEAKER_04: And again, that's a sign of not grounded or connected.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: I think for me what stood out was that, you know, it was post-9-11, so he deployed quite a bit.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: So we had these long periods of time, and the furthest, the longest we were ever apart was 15 months.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: But it was like I would be lonelier when he was stateside than I would when he would be gone.
25:50
SPEAKER_04: Because you were more in self when you didn't have to self-abandon to fascinate.
25:56
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
25:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
25:58
SPEAKER_04: And I think that's I think we've just stumbled on a very interesting phenomenon, like married satisfies the anxious attacher, right?
26:08
SPEAKER_04: And then away satisfies the avoidant attacher.
26:11
SPEAKER_04: But it's like the the anxious attacher is grounded by the institution of marriage.
26:17
SPEAKER_04: Like I am somebody, somebody is mine.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: And there's um there's a level of excuse for when he's gone, because I experienced this because he my husband uh traveled a lot or l, you know, always had something going on.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: When he was gone, there was an excuse for him not to be present because he was doing XYZ.
26:41
SPEAKER_02: He's deploying.
26:42
SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't activating all of this feeling.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: Not but he was home.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: Now he's not present, but also he's here.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: You know, so it was it was a very um, it was more of a microscope of everything that was wrong when he was home.
26:58
SPEAKER_04: Weeds of the attachment theory.
27:01
SPEAKER_04: And how it looks in real life.
27:03
SPEAKER_04: Okay, I want to take like the tiniest bit of a right turn.
27:07
SPEAKER_04: So you've got your phone in your hand, you want to text him back, you're like Tiffany, and you're either feeling a flutter and you can't breathe, or you're like Joy and I, and there's a pressure building and you just need it to release, or maybe some third or fourth option we didn't say, and we want you to tell us about what it feels like in your body right before you text back.
27:27
SPEAKER_04: Why is it so much harder in that moment to maintain a boundary with yourself, right?
27:32
SPEAKER_04: To to heed the agreement you made with yourself when nobody in your community knows you're struggling.
27:39
SPEAKER_04: If you haven't told anyone uh before you do the thing, or you haven't told anyone, I'm really struggling with this pattern.
27:48
SPEAKER_04: And maybe you haven't told anyone because you don't understand it yourself yet, right?
27:52
SPEAKER_04: But why is it harder to keep a boundary when your support system isn't looped in?
28:04
SPEAKER_00: There's no accountability needed.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's hard to be accountable to yourself, especially in the beginning, because our tendency is to go towards the familiar, right?
28:13
SPEAKER_00: Like it's just self-abandon.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: So there is no accountability at that point.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: I've always been somebody that suffered in silence.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: And I've said this before, nobody knew my marriage was what it was, except two people.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: So for me, I've always suffered in silence.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: I've never shared the hard things or how I'm doing.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm also the one that people normally don't check on because they just feel like I'm strong and I have it and I'm fine.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I put out to the world because of my ego.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: So for me, yeah, I think that it's a lot of things, but it's like nobody has to know.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: It's like what goes on behind closed doors, nobody has to know.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: So I can sit here and say that I'm strong and that everything is fine, and at night I can be texting him about how much I miss him and all that other shit that happens.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: Secrets they keep us sick.
29:02
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
29:03
SPEAKER_05: They keep us out of alignment.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: I wanna speak into how often because I had community.
29:13
SPEAKER_02: I didn't I didn't have a community that knew how to help or knew how to hold space for when I said I, you know, like I really whatever, like I I really this is a Tuesday episode, so I can't say what I want to say, but like um, I physically need whatever.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: They don't they didn't know how to hold space.
29:37
SPEAKER_02: And so I felt very alone in my struggle to hold myself accountable.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't, I didn't know how to hold myself accountable, and I didn't have people to help me hold myself accountable.
29:50
SPEAKER_02: So there was a gap in my healing, my my community, because they weren't walking through what I was walking through and had never been in my situation.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
30:04
SPEAKER_02: That's a really good point, A.
30:07
SPEAKER_04: And B, chances are the communities we've built for ourselves at the time of divorce are also people who largely, for the most part, have similar isms, right?
30:19
SPEAKER_04: Similar challenges, similar struggles, their nervous systems are in a similar state, right?
30:26
SPEAKER_04: Like wired and tired.
30:28
SPEAKER_04: Um, they probably have similar attachment concerns.
30:33
SPEAKER_04: Our communities probably are people who tell us, damn right, send the text more than, but if you keep sending the text, you're gonna keep abandoning yourself, right?
30:46
SPEAKER_04: Right.
30:47
SPEAKER_04: Because people can't take us further than they've been in terms of their own self-development.
30:52
SPEAKER_04: It's the same thing of your healers and your spiritual leaders, right?
30:55
SPEAKER_04: It's very hard for healers or spiritual leaders or your own community to take you to walk with you beyond where they have gone.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: I think that's why our I mean, I don't want to beat a you know, drum or whatever, but I think that's why our community that we've built inside of, that we've built inside of this our membership is so special because we do have it's it's a dozen women, you know, banding together to help hold that line and help hold that accountability.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, like, ladies, I'm just gonna put it here in this thread so I don't, you know, send it or need it or whatever.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: Like I'm I'm waffling, I'm wobbling in this moment.
31:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's so important in your healing journey to have people who have been steps down the road, right?
31:53
SPEAKER_04: Because yeah.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: If we're surrounding it, that's what we say in your healing journey.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: The same person that picked your husband is the same person that picked your friends.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: So nine times out of ten, you're surrounding yourself with people who are lower vibe, you know, whatever that means for you.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I certainly had friends that would just be like, F it, do it.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, like they they did not care.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: And even when I was in my own destructive behavior, I had a group of people around me that were encouraging it.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: Um that was fun Tiffany, right?
32:21
SPEAKER_00: Like she was there for the party.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: And then I remember when I started really changing and kind of stepping back from that lifestyle, I lost a lot of friends because, you know, I wasn't fun Tiffany anymore.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't the raging party girl.
32:32
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: And then also go ahead.
32:35
SPEAKER_02: No, I was just gonna say, I was just gonna say that like your your friends, your friends are probably very amazing, but and they prevented me from getting a dog and a tattoo.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I did they let you cut bangs?
32:48
SPEAKER_02: They didn't let me cut veins.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: So that's a that's a big uh as a form of politics.
32:56
SPEAKER_02: That's the thing.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: When you're going through something, you automatically want to look different so you feel different.
33:01
SPEAKER_02: And so I would never let anybody cut veins when they're having an emotional crisis.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: But they did you I'm sure um our listeners have those people.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, but again, are they gonna know your heart and struggle about sending the text?
33:19
SPEAKER_04: And help you break the pattern.
33:20
SPEAKER_04: Stop you.
33:20
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
33:21
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
33:23
SPEAKER_04: Can you think of a moment where when you called your own pattern out loud to someone else, it stopped the spiral?
33:31
SPEAKER_02: I think it's very powerful to say things out loud.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: Oftentimes I'll have women just video themselves saying it even to themselves, but saying it out loud into a video um calms that peace that needs to be heard and seen, yeah, but doesn't necessarily need to be validated.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: So it's like it's that moment of discharge from your nervous system, but not seeking validation in the same time.
34:04
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think it it's like lily pads on the way to self-validation, right?
34:10
SPEAKER_04: I remember, I do think early on, Al-Anon helped me so much with this because I developed this circle of people and group therapy too, right?
34:16
SPEAKER_04: I had a women's group, I had women from Al-Anon.
34:19
SPEAKER_04: I'm still dear friends with several of those women today.
34:22
SPEAKER_04: Or I could call one of them and say all the things.
34:25
SPEAKER_04: And yeah, I would get that discharge right.
34:27
SPEAKER_04: But then that's a lily pad on the journey to like being able to just pray about it or journal it and not have to go to somebody with it, being able to sit with it and transmute it.
34:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:40
SPEAKER_02: I I'm curious, is that some of the reason why?
34:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, like, like actually, we we've said it it previously in the episode about how sometimes just sending the text is the discharge that you need.
34:56
SPEAKER_02: So could you create a like fake number and send the text to a fake number so you get the discharge?
35:06
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that's what people are doing with ChatGPT.
35:09
SPEAKER_04: And my answer is you know, they're like having conversations with ChatGPT, right?
35:14
SPEAKER_04: Like, so yes, they're using AI as their like so therapist, right?
35:21
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
35:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
35:23
SPEAKER_04: And I think there is a certain amount of progress you can make there.
35:26
SPEAKER_04: But let's discuss, for instance, Joy, the weekend you just had, where you went away and another woman mothered you all weekend when you weren't feeling well.
35:38
SPEAKER_04: The level of healing that comes there will never, ever, ever be replaced by I sent a text message to the to the internet.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: No.
35:50
SPEAKER_04: Right.
35:50
SPEAKER_04: So it's like, I do think there are tools we can use that um can provide some pain relief in a moment, right?
36:00
SPEAKER_04: Chat GPT is very good at validation.
36:05
SPEAKER_04: So, but how much does it just reinforce that addictive cycle?
36:09
SPEAKER_04: And versus pain has to be felt and witnessed in order to be able to integrate or release.
36:16
SPEAKER_04: Even when we do IFS or EMDR therapy, that's what's happening, right?
36:19
SPEAKER_04: We're dropping into our bodies, we're tapping into those feelings, we're accessing moments where people loved us unconditionally and using that resource to come back and like wash the pain or integrate it in a way.
36:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's very, very, very different.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: And I, Don, I would love you to speak into the 90-second thought pattern.
36:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, because I think a lot of times our attachment styles and our nervous system, you just ruminate and ruminate and ruminate and ruminate, and then it becomes so speak into that a little bit because I think that's very good information to have.
36:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
36:55
SPEAKER_04: So there's some emerging data.
36:56
SPEAKER_04: I don't want to say it's emerging because I think this is ancient data.
36:59
SPEAKER_04: Let me be oh so clear.
37:00
SPEAKER_04: I think this is an ancient data that us dumb humans are stumbling across in what we're calling modern time or whatever.
37:07
SPEAKER_04: Right.
37:07
SPEAKER_04: But that when you focus on something from an energetic perspective, from a frequency perspective, when you focus your mind on something for a certain amount of seconds, it starts to create momentum energetically.
37:19
SPEAKER_04: Just like your car has momentum when you push on the gas this much versus this much versus this much, right?
37:25
SPEAKER_04: When you focus your attention on something and it starts to build momentum, by the time you and I, and I don't know if I'm speaking exactly to the thing you're talking about, Joy, but there's a 60-second threshold, it's a little more than 60, and then a 90-second threshold where you have begun to change your state, you've become, you've started to change the frequency at which you're vibrating, and then therefore are attracting something of that frequency, right?
37:50
SPEAKER_04: So if you are perseverating on how he wronged you for 60 seconds and then crossing over that threshold and then into 90 seconds, you have effectively lowered your frequency in that moment, dropped into a lower vibe state, and now are attracting lower vibe things like a magnet straight to you.
38:12
SPEAKER_04: Versus if you reach for a different thought, and this is where women struggle.
38:18
SPEAKER_04: If you reach for a different thought, something about your becoming, something about gratitude, something about a resource or a positive memory or positive experience or something that you feel proud around.
38:29
SPEAKER_04: This is this is the problem for women.
38:32
SPEAKER_04: You reach for that other thought and it doesn't immediately have the feeling state attached to it.
38:37
SPEAKER_04: Because maybe you don't believe it yet, or maybe you haven't felt this idea of somebody loving you unconditionally recently.
38:44
SPEAKER_04: Maybe you haven't felt desired in a long time.
38:47
SPEAKER_04: Maybe you haven't felt like truly seen or validated by a man or by your mother or by the church or by whomever, right?
38:54
SPEAKER_04: And so you reach for a different positive thought because you're like, well, Joy and Tiffany and Dawn said that if I, you know, the larger manifestation community said that if I change my thoughts, I'll change my life, right?
39:06
SPEAKER_04: So you reach for this positive thought in order to get at this 90-second loop that Joy is introducing, but you can't find the associated positive feeling state and you collapse before you get to 90 seconds, or you don't know how to find that good feeling, and then you end up looping back to the old pattern.
39:23
SPEAKER_04: Am I addressing what you were looking for, Joy?
39:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just yeah, yeah, yes.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: You're doing it beautifully.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: And because I think a lot of that is why you send the text, you know?
39:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, all the time, of course.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: There are probably valid, valid reasons, but a lot of times it's just your nervous system.
39:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
39:42
SPEAKER_04: And so if I can sit with, okay, I want to send this text and I want to get this pain relief, versus I'm gonna think something positive and I'm gonna feel my way into positivity.
39:54
SPEAKER_04: This very, very tricky thing about manifestation that people don't get is your felt sense in your body is what dictates, not just your thought patterns.
40:04
SPEAKER_04: It's this felt sense in the body.
40:06
SPEAKER_04: And this is why people have a hard time creating different outcomes in their life because they're so focused on what is, and they have not yet built the positive habits and patterns to create the felt sense of gratitude, to create the felt sense of worthiness, to create the felt sense of being desired by from yourself with your core group of people.
40:26
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's like that felt sense is missing.
40:29
SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
40:30
SPEAKER_04: So you could send the text message to the ether or, you know, have the conversation with Chat GPT.
40:36
SPEAKER_04: Lord knows I did it on Friday.
40:38
SPEAKER_04: I got triggered by somebody who was like, I don't think you get it.
40:41
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I went, I did the, I did this exact thing, right?
40:47
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I wanted that relief of knowing I was right versus, you know, what this person's perception was, right?
40:55
SPEAKER_04: So on a smaller scale, I did that with ChatGPT on Friday.
40:58
SPEAKER_04: And that is feeding the cycle versus being able to sit with and separate.
41:05
SPEAKER_04: And I caught myself doing it midstream.
41:07
SPEAKER_04: And it's funny because I've had conversations with Chat GPT where I'm literally trying to position myself to just be able to sit with the feelings more consistently.
41:16
SPEAKER_04: Like just sit with what stop telling myself a story about what I'm feeling, right?
41:20
SPEAKER_04: Just sit with the feeling.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:21
SPEAKER_04: And that's what so I caught myself later in the night.
41:24
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, just sit with a feeling of what it feels like to be misunderstood.
41:27
SPEAKER_04: I'm just gonna sit with that feeling of being misunderstood, misperceived, yeah, not fully recognized for my capability, right?
41:35
SPEAKER_04: Like just sit with that, Dawn.
41:37
SPEAKER_04: So then I did that later.
41:39
SPEAKER_04: But that's what needs to happen, right?
41:40
SPEAKER_04: Is to be able to sit with, oh, I feel unseen, unvalidated, unvalued, unwatever, right?
41:47
SPEAKER_04: Sit with that and be like, okay, but that is not the truth, and be able to feel my way into a good feeling.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: I think it's about using tools too.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: Like in I of S, we talk about how important the toolbox is to be able to come back to self, we call it, or this state of awareness and calm and being very clear.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: So for me, it's like when you get the text message, my biggest thing is reach for a tool, you know, go for a walk, have some meditation time, journal it out, think about it.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like when you feel the pressure to text back right away, that is a reactive part.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: That is a part of you that is trying to stop something from happening in your body.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: And so it's like nine times out of 10, if we don't react to that text within the first 10 minutes, you know, and we give ourselves even an hour or 24 hours, like I would put a boundary on it, you know, like literally a timeline of, hey, if you text me, I'm not gonna text back for X amount of time until I really feel like I'm in a place of calm.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: So many people come to me and I ask them, I'm like, what are some tools that you know?
42:48
SPEAKER_00: And they just stare blankly.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: So if you don't have tools in the toolbox, you need to start building your toolbox of of different things.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: And it's different for everybody on what can make you feel calm before you react.
43:00
SPEAKER_04: Well, and many people have tools, but like, have you ever been in that moment where it's time to use the tool and you just plain don't want to do it in the moment?
43:08
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
43:09
SPEAKER_04: And that's when we collapse, right?
43:11
SPEAKER_04: When it's like, no, I want to reach for the glass of wine, the cookie, the text message.
43:16
SPEAKER_04: I want what I want in this moment because I don't want to do the more uncomfortable thing.
43:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
43:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, a feeling.
43:26
SPEAKER_04: Amazing.
43:27
SPEAKER_04: So let's just highlight for another moment.
43:31
SPEAKER_04: You cannot heal beyond the capacity of the people you're standing in the room with most often, right?
43:37
SPEAKER_04: Like you to heal further, you have to be surrounded by people who have healed further.
43:46
SPEAKER_04: So if you are looking for people who have healed further and you want to do it with them or with us, we're your people.
43:54
SPEAKER_04: Come hop into cocoon completely free.
43:58
SPEAKER_04: We have regular magic drops where we have awesome healing swag.
44:03
SPEAKER_04: We have live workshops and well, the workshops are for our vips.
44:09
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but we have cocoon connect calls where you can connect with other women in the cocoon.
44:14
SPEAKER_04: We have all sorts of delicious community things in there where you can be with us and heal further.
44:22
SPEAKER_04: We would love to see you in Cocoon at our next Connect call.
44:25
SPEAKER_04: We love you so much.
44:26
SPEAKER_04: Peace.