Latest / Receivables Podcast | Discussions About Debt Collection / All About Small Debt Buyer Growth Strategies | Amber Russo | Ep. 296

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All About Small Debt Buyer Growth Strategies | Amber Russo | Ep. 296 · Receivables Podcast | Discussions About Debt Collection

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, everybody.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Adam Parks here with another episode of Receivables Podcast.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm here with my longtime friend and the current RMAI president, Amber Russo, here to share with us some of her experiences about being a small debt buyer, how that's evolved through the years.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Very excited for the discussion today.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing today, Amber?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Good to see you again.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Always a pleasure.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really glad we got a chance to spend some time together up in Washington State at the recent RMAI Executive Summit.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: But for anyone who has not been as lucky as me to get to know you through the years, could you tell everyone a little about yourself and how you got to the seats that you're in today?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Amber Russo.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: I am president of Kinofinancial, which is a small, mid-sized debt buyer based in Arizona.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: I started in this industry working for a collection law firm and in 2014 transitioned into the world of debt buying.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: And in 2017, started Kino Financial.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: So we're about to have our 10-year anniversary.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: We started in one state buying auto deficiencies, and we're now in 12 buying a diverse set of products and with many relationships in the industry.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's given you a great opportunity to expand and grow over time.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's the perfect guest for this conversation because there was a time when being a small one-state debt buyer was a very feasible business model.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of different buying opportunities in the market.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Come 2012, obviously things started to change, resale restrictions and other things start to come into play, and deals have to get more creative, or debt buyers have to find these new avenues that they can go down to find product portfolios that make sense for them.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you said you started, you know, single state and kind of grew from there.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me a little about what that experience has been like as the marketplace has continued to change and the challenges have become a little bit greater if you're too small.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: I still think that there's an opportunity for folks with a very small footprint to partner with local banks or local credit unions.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: When I started Kino Financial, we were buying from a local auto finance company.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, buying direct from them, working, you know, really working with just straight charge off paper, you know, and then certainly if I want to get into the space of credit card market or, you know, retail installment loans, you have to partner with folks that are buying nationally who are willing to sort of JV with you and let you peel off some states.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Usually that's not one or two.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or where there are still resale provisions in the contracts.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we saw those a lot early on in the in debt buying, you know, where you could just sort of retrade uh different state packages.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: I do think that that's there.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: It exists.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm buying some of that.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: However, you really have to up your game in terms of what, you know, your qualifications.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be prepared to be audited by those original creditors as part of the downstream.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be able to show your RMAI certification that you meet all of those standards.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, the banks will not agree for you to be in that retrade position.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: So even in a retrade, a lot of times they're maintaining the right to approve those buyers.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so the it's not like in being downstream, the qualifications are any lesser.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree that there's a lot of opportunity at the local level.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And starting my career in this industry at Credit Max, we were selling on an individual account basis, mostly zip code-based files, so that an attorney could come in and build a portfolio that specifically was going to work for their needs.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was an interesting approach, but obviously a very different model for a very different time.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so as you've gone through that growth, what have been some of the catalysts that have really worked well for you as you've expanded into new states and tried to grow your footprint into more regional?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tell you what, I mean, and I and I think you and I have both said this before.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: The relationships are the most important thing in this business.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've gone where partners of mine have gone.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: If a law firm says that they're looking to expand their footprint into two new states, I look for opportunities there.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: If I know that that law firm is always already a good partner of mine.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we sort of take that growth step together.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's been a good organic model for our growth, right?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, you know, we're not picking states off of a map with a, you know, with a dart.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: It really just is like an organic growth with my partners.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Which is an interesting approach.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: So from a partnership perspective, it sounds like performance might not be the only thing that's important to you.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of those other things in those law firm or agency partnerships where you really find value beyond just the core performance numbers that everybody talks about?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's important that, you know, you again, you're succeeding and failing together, right?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so if I can look at a potential purchase and before saying to my firms, here's your plate, eat off of it, I can say, can you look at this and tell me, do you see any, do you foresee any problems?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: Do you, you know, do we have any, should I go back and ask for additional media on this particular sample so that you can look at it more closely?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: I like, I think that having that relationship outside of just performance numbers and showing that, you know, we all respect each other's opinions.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I have to say, hey guys, listen, I had to buy this product in Tennessee, despite maybe knowing that we might have some trouble with a particular court because I bought it in my other footprint, you know, in my other state footprints.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes we have to have that conversation, which is like, oh, thanks, Amber, you know.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's a true partnership.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that is what makes you successful outside of a traditional service rate scorecard, right?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: What's the relationships?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then it sounds like it's also some of that ease of doing business with another organization.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Some of it is about like, hey, I've I've known this owner for 25 years, we've been working together, we've had a lot of success together, but it's also about how easy are they to work with?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: How fluid is the technology?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: How easy is it for me to be passing files back and forth?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: How quickly are they responding to client services requests or or disputes and things of that nature?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how complex is that matrix that you're looking at?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And do you think it's more or less kind of complex than, you know, maybe larger or similar organizations?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think larger organizations have a tendency to partner with larger firms or larger agencies, right?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: So you do end up sort of the scorecard drives your market share and things like that.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: When it's small to small, I do think we have a little bit of that hometown advantage.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm you learn things that don't show up on a scorecard.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: I've got one judge that's gonna make you fly to Arkansas, you know, for a trial.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: He's not, he's not letting you do a Zoom appearance.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you have that home that hometown advantage and sort of that small business relationship.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and I will say too, look, I you know that I've come from the law firm side.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really where my comfort is.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: We have a heavy legal strategy on the products that we buy.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: That said, I've done a lot of work with agencies too and tried to expand our digital collection strategy, right?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of that, that's more difficult to have this, you know, hey, what do you think about this and what's happening here?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: It really boils down to what are, you know, what are your email addresses?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: What's your data integrity like?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you know, can you get me cleaner information so that I can right party contact your folks?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I do have to do a different sort of work on that product, depending on where it's going.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And in what needs to be prepared in order to empower that partner to be able to actually collect, whether it be through a collections channel or a litigation channel, and you know, giving them the tools and the documentation that are necessary for success, I would think would be, you know, a pretty big part of that.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, as as we think about how leveling the playing field in the debt buying space has changed over time.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: As someone who started as a small debt buyer and has grown into a more mid-sized one, have you found value in the RMAI certification program in being able to demonstrate that you operate on that level playing field?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: I have.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: And like I mentioned earlier, you know, it comes up in conversation when I'm looking to partner with a seller, they ask, it's in some of my sales agreements.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think that the certification standards are or the certification program is incredibly valuable, not only for our advocacy as an industry, but also then as saying, look, I meet these requirements as a debt buyer.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: I do think that as we progress forward, we'll start to ask our vendors to become certified as part of that plan as well, right?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, already you see law firms and agencies really embracing the certification program.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think process servers are the natural next extension.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because the more that I can say we're all in this again, you know, right?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're all in the relationship together, but we all have to be in the compliance together as well.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a fair statement.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And holding everybody else accountable to the level at which you are held accountable, I think makes a lot of sense.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: For me, the certification program provides that third-party audit capability.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it demonstrates for everybody that we're holding it to the same standard.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: It was also my experience earlier on in the certification program that a lot of smaller creditors, as they were preparing for their first sale, were looking to it as a guideline for the types of due diligence and RFI criteria that they need to be evaluating, reviewing, documenting, et cetera, as they're going through that bid process.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that certification has earned that level of trust that kind of allows it to be a double-edged sword.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, I agree.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think even in the documentation standards, right, you know, you can point to that and say, this is exactly what I need in any sale.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: I will say, and to your point of the audits, you know, as a small debt buyer, it wasn't really getting audited very often, right?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Particularly before some of the retrad, right?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: I was just working with smaller local banks or local credit unions.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: So because of that, there wasn't a lot of like an audit process happening.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: The certification process helped me.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: It was like all of a sudden I had a boss watch, you know, checking.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Are all these things happening right?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it and that's good.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was good to have that um that confidence level, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Of yep, I did that right, or I could tweak what I'm doing here.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I would recommend to anybody, even if you feel like you're not big enough, do go through that process, you know, be part of this, the what what helps us qualify debt buyers in our space.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, now, in order to be a debt buyer member of RMAI, you do have to obtain your certification within a year of joining.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that, you know, because of that change, right?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Folks that want to sort of get into the space say, all right, I'm gonna have to just go ahead and do this right off the bat.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's important for a lot of creditors.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we've been in this industry for a long time and we've learned a lot through our experiences.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the certification program is one of those opportunities for newer organizations to get up to speed faster because it's just such a level of detail in the documentation and the expectations that we have of each other that was never really written down before.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like we all kind of knew them.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: We all kind of knew what we were responsible for and what we were gonna see tomorrow, but we we weren't measuring it the same way.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's provided a layer there as well.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I agree.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: They're working on 15.0 right now, uh, so the 15th iteration of standards.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that the team that works with Farm AI on the standards committee and on the certification council, you know, they do a lot of work to make sure that we're always hitting developments in the industry and making sure that we're watching those standards.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think they do a great job of balancing it, right?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: They're looking for those standards and what needs to change, but at the same time, they're not changing for the sake of change.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: They're changing as things are actually changing in the industry, which is a pitfall that we've seen, you know, other organizations fall into in the past, even outside of our space.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give you a good example.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, your favorite topic, you know, AI.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was it was proposed maybe two years ago before it got on, right?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like we at one point it was like no.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was proposed when I was still on the board.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of shot back and said, I don't know that we're ready to standardize something we don't understand.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, and that's and that's but it's a good example of how we say, we know this is coming.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Let's prepare for it.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Even if it doesn't make it in today, we'll come back to it.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's a good point, right?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: So AI was proposed back, you know, again, when you were sitting at on the board level, and we didn't put it in, we didn't let it go through until we felt, all right, no, now it's time to require some education standards or so I changed.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Even the availability, right?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like ChatGPT came out when I was president in 2022.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't at that same level of a genetic AI adoption at that point in time.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're continuing to work down the path, but I think that team is is always well, I know that team, and they're always watching and continuing to build what I think is the appropriate amount of modification, right?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're not just changing to change and to show, you know, look how much we can change, but more about actively doing these things in a way that it benefits all parties involved.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as we talk about the certification standards and we think about kind of some of those smaller creditors, and I know you've done some auto finance companies and credit unions and other small creditors.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: What have you learned through the process of educating these creditors on debt sales in general and bringing those transactions from an initial discussion or idea to an actual portfolio in your inventory?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm laughing only because I picture myself digging through documents at a particular, you know, office and like, here, you can look in our filing cabinets.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, I've gotten moving trucks full of FedEx boxes.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, not so it's not like the funnest part of the job.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: I will say, you know, that's sort of an anecdotal response, but it's really, you know, I think what you end up doing is when you're having that conversation, you're like, look, if you're not ready to sell off the book that you have read, like sitting here because your documentation is four and you haven't done a very good job of retention, and things are in, you know, Susan's filing cabinet and Susan quit five years ago.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then let's help you prepare for the next round of chart.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like you may not be in a position to sell what's sitting here ready that you'd love to get off your books, but why don't I help you get ready for what you could potentially sell in six months?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that's I think that's really the convers.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's well, uh back to that partnership word, right?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like if if we're in, we're gonna be in this together, you know, I can't come to you with a great offer unless those documents are in order and your records are kept well.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and so sending me out to the, you know, to the filing cabinet's not, you know, I can buy four accounts.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's not, you know.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I do, so I think it's really an education.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you said that.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that it really is helping even these, you know, local uh auto auto finance companies or whatever.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: No, this is what you'll need later.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think going upstream is the best thing you can do.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's no point in building a relationship with the creditor if you're not going to help them fix what's happening on the origination side, which increases the value that you're able to pay for it.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: As a debt buyer, you can only pay what you can pay for a file, right?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: You still have to be able to turn some sort of positive cash flow on that investment.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's a it's an interesting balance that we start to see.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, I agree.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: So is we want, you know, we want to bring folks to market for small debt buyers like me.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it may not be like I said, it may never go back to if you're a one or two state footprint.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, that's a very difficult.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: You probably have already facilitated those relationships in your state or states, you know, because there really is only so much you can do sort of at that smaller level.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Fair.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when you're dealing with the smaller account levels, uh, you know, the challenge for me as a broker, as a buyer was that the volume of accounts never offset the amount of work that had to go into it, unless you were building a longer-term solution and I was going to be the solution for the next 10 years.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to buy all these accounts going out for the next decade, which is not a forward flow that anybody's signing, but those relationships, I think, drive where those go.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the smaller the organization, the more personal the relationship needs to be in order to find a successful partnership.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Or understanding that even if the volume's low, you're willing to expand your footprint and, you know, buy the 12 accounts they have in another state.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but I think that it's it's about partnerships and the growth for both of you.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's go back to the partnerships for a minute.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're a smaller organization, you're probably larger in some of the firms you're placing with, you're smaller in others.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: How do you maintain that type of control over the accounts, keep things interesting, and build those relationships when you are either a large fish in the small pond or a small fish in the very large pond?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: How does how does the strategy change for you?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, look, in any situation, because it's me and I'm boots on the ground, I mean, I will show up at your door if we need to have a really important conversation.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you have to be flexible in that way, right?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's a partnership.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I've if I've said that to you in the beginning, then you should expect that I will show up on the on the door.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: But I think, right, for this, for my larger firms, it's tough because I recognize that I'm not, I'm not their substantial client, you know, I'm not the one ri bringing, you know, paying the bills.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that what I've realized through those partnerships is that a lot of those firms say or agencies say, look, we want a diverse, you know, account base.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like we want to have small debt buyers in our inventory.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you guys don't cause me too much grief.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I like to say there's a machine happening over at those large law firms or large agencies.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it's I'm fine to say, I'm gonna plug myself into that machine.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Throw, throw my, you know, small inventory in with what's running through your uh your factory.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that that's what that looks like with the larger firms.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, from time to time, you have to say, look, I get it.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: You're so busy, but can you make time for me?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to be willing to say, Oh, you don't have time to meet with me for lunch at an NCBA conference because you're meeting with your biggest client.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Understood.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Let's set something up for the following week, you know, and you have to be willing to recognize that.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: For my small firms, you know, we'll spend two days together.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: What's the strategy look like?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: What are we doing together?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: How can we fix this problem?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: And when they say something like, Look, I just can't find a great legal assistant to prepare your affidavit packages.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then it's real easy to say, great, I'll do that on my end.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'll hire somebody, I'll get those prepared for you before I send them.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really about understanding like, where are the gaps and how can I help?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Where are the shortcomings and how can we close the distance on the gap?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would think even as a small organization within a even a larger firm, it might give you some opportunities to be a first member, right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: You get to be that group because you've got a little bit more flexibility.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're the decision maker.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to run through a board and seven committees and 45 discussions.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can just, you know, kind of make a decision.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do we want to do this?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: I have a particular question.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you a story here.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I have a particular law firm that likes to say to his staff, like, don't try and fool Amber.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like she knows.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, you can't say, like, we just the the courts are behind.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like, mm, I can pull up, you know, I know how to do a record search.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I think that that's it too, right?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like, true partnerships are not about.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like, don't try and that, you know, don't try and soft pedal your way through, whatever.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just be on, tell me what's happening.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me when you're back to send.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: This was not done on time.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what I'm doing to solve the problem.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: I would prefer that response as well, but that's just me.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:10
  unknown: You know.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: I just think maybe if that's the lesson for the audience, like just be transparent because somebody's gonna find it.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things that we always talk about when we talk about the different sizes of debt buyers is financing and how different organizations are ultimately funding their purchases.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've got that, call it those smaller groups that are friends and family.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: You've got others that are using specialty finance vehicles, you've got others still that are doing syndicated bank lines or a bank line or a syndicated bank line.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So there are a couple of different options.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: As an organization that started small and self-funded, do you find that gives you a competitive advantage in working with creditors because you don't have that secondary opinion or approval necessary in order for you to execute on a deal that you know is a good fit for you?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's certain I do lead, you know, I am forward with that, right?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, look, I can close, I can close quickly because I don't have to talk to I don't have to talk to many people.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I do think that that's helpful.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: I also think that it's allowed it's allowed me to be able to pass on things too, right?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I know that there's only a certain number I'm going to spend this month, it really helps me make decisions, I think, that have not been like, you know, oh, perhaps I'll risk this one and buy this deal that I don't love.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because, again, it's it's our money and we only, you know, we only have a certain amount of it.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So But you but on the flip side, you've got larger organizations that find themselves with deployment targets and now they're making purchase or investment decisions, not necessarily based on the best interest of that transaction or that deal opportunity, but based on their need to deploy capital in order to keep their capital available.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, sure.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, what if a certain portfolio takes you longer to get to your servicers because you're packaging it up real, you know, you're making sure that it's going to perform the way it needs to, or there's some, you know, data sanitization that you want to do prior to putting it out.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can afford that delay, you know, not a super long one, but I don't have to pay, I'm not, I'm not trying to pay anybody back right away.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I do think that there are benefits to self-funding.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: It will keep us a certain size.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, if we can support our families this way, and you know, we're we're marginally successful, I think that I'm happy to stay in this lane of size and and uh scope.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: It seems very intentional, right?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to find yourself chasing the investments.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you and your team could not find other capital.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the issue.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: The issue is a specific purchase decision to give yourself flexibility and to give yourself more control over not only the portfolios, but the timing of liquidation, because now you only have one master to answer, right?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like internally, which has always been my preference as well.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I can definitely respect that.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as a as a leader in the industry and as someone who has grown up here and found opportunities of your own as you've staked your own claim in the space.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: What advice do you have for others that are at the beginning of their career and are now starting to look at doing something on their own or expanding out?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what advice do you have for others that are in your shoes 10 years ago?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that the community is your is our biggest asset, right?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: So the the other leaders in the space, the other folks that have been there.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, you have you and I who'd be happy to talk with anybody that's trying to come up in the space or or kind of make their way.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard before, I've heard from folks like, look, like some of these guys, like they've got their tight-knit circle.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard to break into.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: And all I can tell folks coming in is raise your hand.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let us know that you're interested because I, unless I know, I can't grab you and help you understand this is the next thing you do.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: This is, you know, somebody emailed me the other day and said, How do you find your deals?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not, you know, there's no secret here.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'll introduce you to some brokers.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'll help you, you know, it really comes down to your shop, your financing, and, you know, kind of the risk you're willing to take.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, you know, if at my age, if if if I'd say, well, this is what I'm gonna start doing tomorrow, right?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: It takes a lot of history to get to get here.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it would be fine to say, look, I'm interested in doing these things.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: How can you help me do that?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a a great way to look at it.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a great way to look at it.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's a there's a lot of people that are coming up, and if you don't raise your hand, we don't know who to reach out to because there's a lot of people that are happy in the role that they're in and they're not looking to expand or grow.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if you do have that internal desire, I think there's no better way than to raise your hand and volunteer.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: But if you are going to volunteer, as I said entirely too many times at Summit this year, if you're going to volunteer, you got to show up on time at the time and actively participate.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Don't put your name on things and then not participate.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: It is so mission critical.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the kind of stuff that gets noticed, right?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: When you're there.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also a really easy way to make some new friends, drive some new relationships, and put yourself in a position of personal growth within the space.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, you look at the folks that mentored us and, you know, got brought us to shows or or what I mean, those folks are starting to retire.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we're not the young crowd anymore.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Sad for us.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, that means that there's a whole new generation of leadership that really, you know, if they want to get involved, there's there's opportunities for that for sure.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Amber, I think that is a strong message for our listeners today.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: I really do appreciate you coming on, sharing all of your insights, spending a little bit more time with me.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was great to see you at the RMAI Executive Summit and really excited for your presidency and all of the things that you've been cooking up and trying to push forward.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Heavy is the head that wears the crown, and I think you're doing a great job.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate our conversation.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: For those of you that are watching, if you have additional questions you'd like to ask Amber or myself, you can leave those in the comments on LinkedIn and YouTube.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be responding to those.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you have additional topics you'd like to see us discuss, you can leave those in the comments below as well.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Willing to bet I can get Amber back here at least one more time to help me continue to create great content for a great industry.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: But until next time, Amber, thank you so much.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate all of your time.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you, everybody, for watching.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you all again soon.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Bye, everyone.