Latest / HER / Rapid Fire Answers to Your Nutrition Questions

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Rapid Fire Answers to Your Nutrition Questions · HER

• 0:07
  Pam Peeke, MD: Hi, I'm Dr.
• 0:08
  Pam Peeke, and this is episode number 565 of the Bold and BraveHER podcast.
• 0:15
  And
• 0:18
  today, I'm happily joined by one of our repeat offenders, and that is Dr.
• 0:25
  Susan Kleiner.
• 0:27
  And every time I have a question or I wanna just have a fantastic
• 0:32
  discussion about all things nutrition, oh my goodness, it's Susan Kleiner.
• 0:38
  She's a globally recognized trailblazer in nutrition and human performance, and
• 0:45
  her expertise in groundbreaking research have earned her stellar reputation as
• 0:51
  a visionary leader in the industry.
• 0:54
  She's written a bunch of books.
• 0:56
  We'll be talking about that.
• 0:57
  She's just all over the place, and she is our go-to.
• 1:01
  Sue, welcome back to theHER podcast
• 1:05
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 1:05
  Thank you so much, Pam.
• 1:07
  It is always a delight.
• 1:08
  I look forward to these every single opportunity we have.
• 1:12
  Pam Peeke, MD: Oh, come on, you just say that.
• 1:15
  You're just messing, you're messing with me, right?
• 1:18
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 1:18
  Right
• 1:19
  Pam Peeke, MD: oh my goodness.
• 1:20
  So you know what I decided to do today, which I thought would be
• 1:25
  really kind of cool, is just to really look at nutrition myths and as
• 1:35
  I love to say, myth understandings.
• 1:39
  Come on, you love that.
• 1:40
  That's in my new book
• 1:42
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 1:42
  My husband, the dentist, would want to fix your teeth.
• 1:45
  Pam Peeke, MD: I know.
• 1:46
  Th- th- th- yeah.
• 1:47
  Okay.
• 1:49
  So every time I hear women, you know, I, like, I overhear them, or they
• 1:55
  want to engage in conversation with me or, or back and forth, next thing you
• 2:00
  know, it's like they're crazy stuff coming out of their mouths, all right?
• 2:06
  And so the first thing is, "Oh my God, carbs, they're the enemy."
• 2:12
  What do you say to that?
• 2:13
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 2:13
  Ah, I couldn't live without carbs.
• 2:16
  and frankly, none of us could live very well without them either, despite
• 2:21
  the fact that everyone says, "Oh, but there's no essential amount of
• 2:25
  carbs that you have to have," like we know essential recommendations
• 2:29
  for protein and essential fats.
• 2:32
  However, if you think about the fact that your brain uses about 60% of your
• 2:37
  total energy for the day, when you're sitting around, and that the m- primary
• 2:43
  source of energy for your brain is carbohydrate, I think most of us would
• 2:49
  like to make sure we get in carbs.
• 2:51
  So, what's the problem?
• 2:54
  Where is the misinformation coming from?
• 2:57
  Well, it depends on if you are good at processing carbohydrates and metabolizing
• 3:03
  them, or you already have a problem.
• 3:06
  And so, since so many of us in the United States, for sure, are overweight and obese
• 3:13
  and have dysfunction with carbohydrate metabolism, the information that
• 3:19
  comes out for people who have clinical diagnoses of problems with processing
• 3:25
  carbs seems to spread to everybody else, but even those people need carbs.
• 3:33
  And so, it is the choice of the carbs, the type of the carbs, the level of
• 3:39
  energy that you need and exercise, physical performance during the day.
• 3:44
  So basically, we all need carbs.
• 3:47
  We all need foods that are rich in carbohydrates, whole foods,
• 3:52
  because those foods are also the only foods that are rich in fiber.
• 3:57
  So, if you are looking to fiber max, having it out of a bottle is not
• 4:05
  the best way to get it, neither does your body respond the best that way.
• 4:10
  It is eating whole foods, whole grains.
• 4:13
  In fact, whole grains and, and fruits and vegetables and nuts and
• 4:19
  seeds, but there's, a global study that looks at risk of disease.
• 4:26
  And several years ago, the data came out that the most important thing
• 4:32
  we could do with our nutrition to reduce our risk of-- the global risk
• 4:38
  of disease was not to lower salt, not to lower sugar, not to lower fat.
• 4:45
  It was to increase our consumption of whole grains.
• 4:50
  That was the number one thing.
• 4:52
  Now, everything else is also important, but the number one
• 4:56
  thing we could do to improve our health is to eat more whole grains.
• 5:02
  And so, carbs are not dangerous.
• 5:07
  For women in particular
• 5:11
  the stimulation of, secretion of insulin that comes from consuming carbohydrates is
• 5:19
  at the tip of the cascade of biochemical events that keeps our reproductive
• 5:26
  system healthy, that keeps our, our entire metabolic system healthy.
• 5:31
  All these things sort of peripheral metabolic control as well as
• 5:36
  central metabolic control, much of it is, is sort of stimulated by
• 5:43
  the secretion of insulin, which is required for carbohydrate digestion.
• 5:48
  So carbs are our friend.
• 5:51
  It's the choice of food that matters
• 5:55
  Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah.
• 5:55
  And it's the kind of carb you're talking about.
• 5:57
  when people say, "Oh, all carbs," you know what I mean?
• 6:01
  It's like this global statement.
• 6:03
  I'm saying, "Well, wait a minute.
• 6:04
  Apple and oranges are carbohydrates.
• 6:09
  What's wrong with them?"
• 6:10
  I don't know anybody who became obese and unhealthy because they
• 6:14
  ate a bunch of apples and oranges.
• 6:17
  So you have to look strategically at the quality of, you know, the
• 6:23
  carbohydrate in front of you.
• 6:26
  this is why complex carbohydrates, like you said, grains, and beans
• 6:30
  and, vegetables are so incredibly important because they're
• 6:35
  digested so much more slowly.
• 6:38
  They give you a greater sense of satiety, they break down into simple
• 6:44
  sugars, like glucose, and then they're used as an energy source.
• 6:50
  So, you know, I'm just thinking when I ran Boston Marathon, and that was a
• 6:55
  check-off item, so that was to be done once and never to be repeated again.
• 7:00
  Just kidding.
• 7:01
  But, you know, I remember what I did as I've done with so many
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  marathon, and I know that you would identify, and that is, you know, I
• 7:10
  had a big-ass bagel in the morning.
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  I mean, that sucker was huge.
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  And then I slapped onto it all kinds of, you know, almond
• 7:20
  butter and, and good stuff.
• 7:22
  So I had healthy fats, I had healthy carbohydrate.
• 7:26
  And the bagel itself, you know, was a complex, you know, 'cause it's a grain.
• 7:30
  I got one with multigrain, yay.
• 7:33
  the damn thing was so big.
• 7:35
  This was in Boston.
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  I don't know where the hell
• 7:37
  they
• 7:37
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 7:37
  it counts
• 7:37
  Pam Peeke, MD: from, but they weighed more than I did.
• 7:41
  it was like I could roll this thing down the street.
• 7:44
  I mean, where the hell did you get this bag- Anyway, I needed
• 7:48
  every single ounce of glucose that was broken down from that bagel.
• 7:54
  and the same thing with the banana that we all have before a marathon.
• 8:00
  and on and on it goes.
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  So y- when you look at sports per se, what you're really looking at is the ability
• 8:08
  to use glucose, strategically when you really, really need it 'cause you don't
• 8:14
  wanna bonk out there when you've got 26.2
• 8:17
  miles to do.
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  So I always think about that, you know, in a big way.
• 8:22
  Fiber is a monster.
• 8:24
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 8:24
  the, the, the key to good sports nutrition is to think about
• 8:29
  it as mission-driven, right?
• 8:32
  So, so when we want to fuel our exercise, right before our exercise,
• 8:40
  this is not when we're also looking to make the healthiest food choices
• 8:46
  we can make because, you know, we're trying to get in a high-fiber diet
• 8:51
  or something like that, because fiber will slow down your digestion.
• 8:56
  And if you feel too full, you can't train very well, or you can't perform very well.
• 9:03
  And so we want to make our choices right before exercise as pretty much
• 9:10
  as fiber-free so that great big, huge white flour bagel was the perfect choice.
• 9:17
  We just want that starch, that good starch that's gonna get broken down that
• 9:22
  we can metabolize and utilize quickly.
• 9:26
  One of the biggest complaints that female athletes have over and above
• 9:32
  male athletes, and especially endurance athletes, triathletes, Ironman
• 9:37
  athletes, female athletes complain of digestive upset and gut issues while
• 9:44
  they are in the midst of their race.
• 9:48
  More female athletes than males also choose whole foods on the-- whether
• 9:55
  they're on the race course or just before.
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  And so they're eating fiber-rich foods because they are certain that's healthier
• 10:03
  for them while they're trying to exercise at peak levels, and that's not the
• 10:10
  mission of your nutrition at that moment.
• 10:13
  Your nutrition is purely to fuel your exercise.
• 10:18
  And so that's where kind of scientifically designed sports nutrition products that
• 10:25
  we would otherwise label ultraprocessed foods actually are mission-driven and
• 10:32
  are appropriate right around exercise.
• 10:36
  Now, the-- You know, we do not drink sports drinks as beverages
• 10:40
  of choice all day long because we don't want that pure sugar coming in.
• 10:46
  We don't need that at four o'clock in the afternoon when your workout
• 10:50
  was at eight in the morning.
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  What we're looking for then are the whole foods.
• 10:54
  That's when you're making healthy and fueling choices.
• 10:59
  But around exercise, eating whole foods, when I say, you know, instead of that
• 11:05
  bagel, you would've eaten one of my super whole grain, hundred percent whole grain
• 11:12
  breads or cereals or something like that, you're gonna feel full when you get into
• 11:18
  your race, and that's not comfortable
• 11:22
  Pam Peeke, MD: I, experimented with, you know, we've, we've all
• 11:25
  had, how shall I say this nicely?
• 11:27
  Epic fails, as we've been experimenting with our little
• 11:31
  bodies, you know, in N of one.
• 11:34
  and I discovered that there's just-- You know, it-- Women are kind of amazing.
• 11:38
  We don't need that much before a race.
• 11:42
  when I tell, you know, guys, "I don't need to carb it up the
• 11:45
  night before," I really don't.
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  You know, I mean, obviously I'll eat healthfully and whatever, if I just
• 11:52
  simply have s- you know, that level of starch that I could just immediately
• 11:56
  break down and then have something that's really easy on my stomach, like
• 12:00
  a, like a banana, and not so much apples.
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  at the end of the race, oranges are where it's at.
• 12:07
  but good Lord.
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  I think what you just said was so cool because all through the day, you
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  know, let's just put aside, you know, running marathons and things like this.
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  All through the day, we have to be able to think about what is our
• 12:26
  physical activity and are we matching what we need at the appropriate time?
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  So when you said it's mission-driven, so many women that I've worked with just
• 12:40
  sort of eat willy-nilly without connecting the dots with physical activity and
• 12:47
  what they actually need, during the day.
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  So sometimes they bonk because they didn't think about loading up appropriately.
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  other times they, they walk around with their stomach, you know, sticking out
• 13:03
  and occupying another state, because they ate too much at the wrong damn
• 13:09
  time, and now they feel, eh, you know, bloated and, you know, whatever.
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  Think about the quality of the food, you know?
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  Carbohydrate is so terribly important.
• 13:22
  Do you remember, you and I are both nutrition scientists, so y- know, a
• 13:27
  million years ago, early on in, the days of, you know, Ancel Keys and, and other
• 13:35
  great scientists in the field, they used to play around with, the whole concept
• 13:42
  of taking away an entire macronutrient.
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  Now, we have carbohydrate, protein, and fat.
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  That's what we're working with to kind of keep the body going.
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  Now, if you take one of those completely away, and you're working
• 13:59
  with either rats or mice- The rats or mice will not eat the food.
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  They inherently know something's missing.
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  It's-- it doesn't, it doesn't work for them.
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  So they would rather stay in the back of the cage and starve to
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  death than eat the stuff up there.
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  They'll taste a little bit, know something's off, and
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  then they'll just go back.
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  I was shocked when I read those ex- early, early, early experiments,
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  and that really drove home to me the fact that humans are no different.
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  You take away an entire, you know, group of, one of the key sectors of
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  macronutrients, which are carbohydrates, and what are you left with?
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  Feeling awful and, and off.
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  Doesn't that make sense?
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  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
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  It, it totally makes sense and because because we feel
• 14:59
  like crap when that happens.
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  And so the, in, in so many ways, so anyone who has gone on a ketogenic diet or a very
• 15:09
  high protein, very low carbohydrate diet, or a high fat, moderate protein, very low
• 15:16
  carbohydrate diet, any of those, over time you will notice that your, again, here we
• 15:24
  go, your digestive system is not happy.
• 15:28
  Yet women restrict their carbohydrates and then complain about their
• 15:33
  gut health or dysfunction of their gut over and over again.
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  And so much of it is because we need carbohydrate rich
• 15:45
  foods for so many reasons.
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  We need it to maintain the biome in our gut.
• 15:52
  So again, the fiber, the various compounds that come from fruits and vegetables
• 15:58
  and, and the skins of those products, along with the whole grains and nuts and
• 16:04
  seeds, all of the compounds help maintain a healthy biome, which helps support the
• 16:12
  immune system in the gut, just healthy motility, meaning that things keep moving
• 16:18
  through your gut the way they're supposed
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  Pam Peeke, MD: it's the microbiome.
• 16:21
  Honor those trillions of, you know, friends with benefits down there
• 16:26
  in your gut, because they need carbohydrate for crying out loud.
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  If you look at so many of the prebiotics, they're carbohydrate.
• 16:38
  You know?
• 16:38
  So the, the little guys down there like to munch on,
• 16:42
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 16:42
  And the other thing is that if those are not around, then the healthy
• 16:48
  beneficial bacteria can't reproduce in the amounts they need to.
• 16:54
  But the high-fat diet and perhaps the, you know, a very high processed sugar
• 17:02
  diet, even a very high protein diet, can alter your gut biome and allow the
• 17:11
  sort of we call pathogenic bacteria, the, the not so useful, bacteria that
• 17:18
  also always live in balance in our gut, they can overproduce, and now you've
• 17:24
  got all kinds of negative consequences
• 17:27
  Pam Peeke, MD: you've got leaky gut, which is never good, and all kinds of
• 17:32
  other nasty things that will go on.
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  So everyone out there, high quality carbohydrates.
• 17:40
  High quality.
• 17:42
  That means whole foods, vegetables and grains.
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  You know, so terribly important.
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  And fruits, obviously, you know, thrown in there as well.
• 17:54
  But you've got to have that for energy.
• 17:57
  You absolutely have to.
• 17:58
  So, strategically and mission-driven, look at how you're living your day and
• 18:07
  when you need your energy the most, okay?
• 18:11
  Super important, and spread that out over the day as well.
• 18:15
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 18:15
  And, and just, just one little tiny, addition is you don't have to eat
• 18:21
  bread and pasta, just to be clear.
• 18:24
  You can eat the whole grain.
• 18:26
  So everyone pretty much knows how to cook rice.
• 18:30
  If you know how to cook rice, you know how to cook whole wheat kernels.
• 18:35
  You know how to cook
• 18:37
  buckwheat, Quinoa
• 18:40
  we can have spelt.
• 18:42
  There's kamut.
• 18:44
  There's so many, einkorn, farro.
• 18:48
  I mean, these are all ancient grains.
• 18:51
  They are all today available in many, you know, some of them in, available
• 18:57
  in grocery stores, certainly all of them available online, and they are
• 19:00
  no more difficult to cook than rice.
• 19:04
  So adding those really whole grain, just get the whole grain and add
• 19:11
  it to your diet, and give yourself the variety beyond just rice.
• 19:16
  And don't feel like, "I can't eat bread and pasta.
• 19:19
  I don't wanna eat bread and pasta."
• 19:21
  If you don't wanna eat bread and pasta, you don't have to,
• 19:24
  but eat those whole grains
• 19:26
  Pam Peeke, MD: Okay.
• 19:27
  Now, let's, let's whip through this next one as quick as I can say.
• 19:32
  How many times have you seen on Doctor TikTok, or Instagram or God
• 19:38
  knows what else, the whole issue about your body needs a detox.
• 19:43
  It needs a cleanse.
• 19:45
  Urgh.
• 19:46
  Okay, I'm tired of hearing this.
• 19:49
  This is so crazy.
• 19:50
  First of all, don't insult your body.
• 19:54
  Your body cleanses itself.
• 19:58
  It detoxes itself.
• 20:00
  It is beautifully built to be able to do that, and to think that, you
• 20:06
  know, you can do something better than your liver and your kidneys?
• 20:12
  They, they have to remove waste and toxins 24/7.
• 20:19
  They never stop.
• 20:21
  They're like little generators.
• 20:23
  And then when people say, "Oh, you know, swallow this and it'll, you
• 20:27
  know, cleanse and detox," or, you know, play with the other end with
• 20:32
  the colonics and the rest of it.
• 20:33
  No.
• 20:35
  Leave all of that bacteria and that intestinal lining
• 20:40
  and the rest of it alone.
• 20:42
  It will do a beautiful job for you if you quit messing with it, okay?
• 20:49
  Do you understand me?
• 20:50
  So those detox cleanses, pitch them.
• 20:53
  Save your money.
• 20:55
  Buy a purse.
• 20:56
  Okay, that's the end of that one.
• 20:58
  Come on, did you love that
• 21:00
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 21:00
  Well, well, and the, and the, you know, sort of the, the, the add-on to
• 21:05
  that is there are things that we do to hurt our, our liver's ability, right?
• 21:11
  So watch out how much alcohol you're
• 21:14
  Pam Peeke, MD: Hello.
• 21:15
  There you go
• 21:16
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 21:16
  That is not healthy for your liver.
• 21:18
  make sure you stay well-hydrated.
• 21:21
  That's important.
• 21:22
  Get in
• 21:23
  your
• 21:24
  right, get in your electrolytes.
• 21:26
  Do, do the things just part of your natural diet.
• 21:30
  You don't need to add extra electrolytes if you don't want to.
• 21:33
  Eat your fruits and vegetables.
• 21:34
  That's where that's where they come from, along with a lot of water comes
• 21:39
  from eating fruits and vegetables
• 21:41
  Pam Peeke, MD: anyone see the trend here?
• 21:43
  How many times have we said fruits and vegetables and whole foods?
• 21:47
  Oh, about 100 times already, as we're doing our thing.
• 21:51
  Oh, my gosh.
• 21:53
  All right.
• 21:53
  Now, when we return, we're gonna be asking the question:
• 21:57
  Does eating fat make you fat?
• 22:59
  And we're back.
• 23:00
  Okay, now, does eating fat make you fat?
• 23:04
  How many-- Lord, I have heard this so many times.
• 23:08
  People have, you know, it's like the old era of low-fat this
• 23:13
  and back and forth, all right?
• 23:16
  Outside of having, you know, a conge-- well, a genetic issue with lipids,
• 23:22
  and you'll know about that from your doctor, this whole issue of eating fat.
• 23:28
  What fat?
• 23:29
  What quality fat?
• 23:31
  You know, and what does fat actually do for you?
• 23:34
  teaser alert, right?
• 23:37
  Every single cell's walls are built up of lipids or fat.
• 23:43
  You don't have fat, you got a problem with your cells.
• 23:47
  All right, take it away, Sue, with eating fat makes you fat
• 23:53
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 23:53
  Well, so Pam, you do take me back to the, to the time in the 80s
• 23:59
  where we switched and we said, "Okay, fat's really bad for you.
• 24:03
  We're just gonna throw as much sugar and carbs into foods as possible, and we're
• 24:08
  gonna call all these packaged foods really healthy for you because they have no fat."
• 24:15
  And they replaced all the fat in cookies and chips and whatever, you know, snack
• 24:20
  foods that came out on the market.
• 24:22
  I, Snack Wells, I think, was the the name of the brand,
• 24:27
  was it was just full of sugar.
• 24:29
  And so that was the beginning of kind of the end, and that, I mean, we do
• 24:34
  kind of track the, the, the origin of the obesity epidemic to the beginning
• 24:42
  of, of some of that in the diet.
• 24:44
  It isn't the root of everything, but it, it may play a role.
• 24:47
  So the thing that makes you fat or makes your body make too
• 24:53
  much fat is too many calories.
• 24:57
  That's, I don't care what anybody says, too many calories.
• 25:01
  It is an energy problem.
• 25:03
  However, we can also mess up our metabolism by eating foods that
• 25:10
  are unhealthy for us and our body doesn't respond as well.
• 25:14
  So lots of fat from animal products, saturated fats, we know that there's
• 25:23
  a limit to what the body can handle.
• 25:26
  But on the flip side, we absolutely need the healthy fats in our diet.
• 25:32
  As Pam said, first of all, every cell wall in the body,
• 25:36
  including the cells in your brain.
• 25:39
  the healthy omega-3 fats in the brain are so important that if you don't have them
• 25:47
  in your diet, your brain will substitute omega-6 fats, and that's when we see
• 25:53
  inflammation in the brain and the cells not being able to talk to each other
• 25:58
  as well in your whole nervous system.
• 26:00
  So we need omega-6 and omega-3.
• 26:05
  We need the healthy fats, again, from vegetables, plant-rich
• 26:11
  foods, fish, all the different…
• 26:14
  And, and there's nothing wrong with some saturated fats in the diet,
• 26:18
  with animal fats, but the variety and the emphasis on plant sources
• 26:25
  of fat is the most important.
• 26:29
  Interestingly, when we think about anti-inflammatory diets and we talk
• 26:34
  about extra virgin olive oil If you realize that there is a compound in extra
• 26:41
  virgin olive oil called oleocanthal.
• 26:44
  Oleocanthal, if you look at its chemistry, is virtually identical to ibuprofen.
• 26:52
  And so yes, it is a natural anti-inflammatory.
• 26:57
  I would have my athletes taking teaspoons of extra virgin olive oil on their food.
• 27:03
  You don't have to take it by itself.
• 27:05
  Enjoy it.
• 27:06
  Dip your bread in there.
• 27:07
  Put it on your baked potato, whatever.
• 27:11
  But throughout the day, imagining all that wonderful compound
• 27:17
  anti-inflammatory sort of floating through your bloodstream, through
• 27:22
  your muscles all day long, and that is where we get the greatest benefits.
• 27:27
  And so taking in, extra virgin olive oil and an array of oils.
• 27:33
  Think about oils in the same way that we think about fruits and vegetables.
• 27:37
  Don't use just one.
• 27:39
  Use an array because they have different flavors and different seasonings.
• 27:44
  So yes, if you wanna use coconut oil, it has a very specific flavor.
• 27:50
  Use it in your recipes where it works, and then use other oils
• 27:55
  that may be lower in flavors.
• 27:57
  but make sure they're in your diet every day.
• 28:00
  Make sure you're taking care of your joints and your skin and your
• 28:04
  brain and your nervous system.
• 28:06
  All of that is dependent on healthy fat
• 28:10
  Pam Peeke, MD: Okay.
• 28:11
  So we're talking about nuts, seeds, avocados, fatty fish like salmon and
• 28:18
  mackerel, and then of course olive oil as you've already mentioned here.
• 28:23
  You know, the other thing is to really get rid of satur- most of the
• 28:29
  saturated fats and, and any trans fats.
• 28:32
  Honestly, any decent food today has no trans fats left in it.
• 28:36
  I think it's, you know, the trans guys, you know, trans fats have
• 28:40
  really had their, day and now trans fats are like out, O-U-T.
• 28:47
  You know, we're looking at monounsaturated and some polyunsaturated fats for
• 28:52
  sure, which we really need to pivot to.
• 28:56
  The other thing about fat, which I love, healthy fat.
• 29:01
  so whenever I say any of the macronutrients, I say healthy
• 29:04
  protein, healthy fat, right?
• 29:08
  Healthy carbohydrate.
• 29:09
  Super, super important to have that little, description right in front of it.
• 29:14
  Healthy, healthy.
• 29:15
  All right.
• 29:16
  I really love how fat is also satisfying.
• 29:21
  You know, it's satiating.
• 29:23
  So like when I do some of my, shakes, which may be, you know, kinda light on
• 29:29
  certain ingredients, you know, maybe greens or whatever, I'll, I'll try
• 29:33
  whenever I can to add in where it's appropriate some almond butter because,
• 29:40
  oh my gosh, it just really hits the spot and I think that the shake lasts
• 29:45
  a lot longer in terms of satiety.
• 29:48
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 29:48
  Well, and the reason for that is because it takes us longer to digest it.
• 29:52
  It takes longer to empty from the stomach.
• 29:54
  And so both fat and protein are great combinations to sort of make you
• 30:02
  feel fuller longer, give you greater satiety, help you last between meals
• 30:10
  Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, excellent.
• 30:11
  there's something else too.
• 30:13
  I know that a lot of women go shopping, and maybe they're also budget constrained
• 30:20
  as well, or they're just damn confused.
• 30:23
  Like organic versus non-organic, right?
• 30:27
  There's that whole thing going on.
• 30:29
  So, you know, there's a piece of you that says, "You know, the
• 30:33
  only way to go is organic," but that's not my understanding at all.
• 30:38
  How about you?
• 30:39
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 30:39
  You know, it is an incredibly privileged position for someone to
• 30:45
  say, " You should only eat organic."
• 30:48
  it's also not terribly evidence-based.
• 30:53
  And so let's start at the top.
• 30:56
  Worldwide, people who eat a diet rich in fruits and vegetables, grains and beans,
• 31:03
  nuts and seeds, healthy proteins, dairy, all of these wonderful, you know, f- foods
• 31:13
  and ingredients, whether they are grown conventionally or organically, people
• 31:20
  who eat diets rich in variety and plant rich are by far healthier than people
• 31:28
  who restrict their plant-based diets.
• 31:32
  So just off the top to say that.
• 31:36
  Now, what do we understand about what is being sprayed on our
• 31:41
  foods and placed on our foods?
• 31:43
  There are some data that show that, we certainly are healthier
• 31:49
  when we wash our produce.
• 31:52
  And there can be all kinds of things on our produce.
• 31:55
  I mean, we're living through a, a, an epidemic right now
• 31:58
  of Cyclosperidia infection.
• 32:01
  That means things were not washed really well, whether it's the lettuce
• 32:05
  or it's the peppers or who knows all the places it's from, because
• 32:11
  bacteria get on our food when they're grown, whether they're organic or not.
• 32:16
  Birds poop on our foods.
• 32:18
  I make sure I wash the tomatoes that I pick in my backyard because animals
• 32:23
  are crawling over it and all, no matter how organically it is grown.
• 32:28
  Organic produce, s- there's some people, and actually some evidence that people
• 32:34
  believe it tastes better very often, because it might be grown, again, with
• 32:41
  the, the breeding for better taste.
• 32:44
  Whereas conventionally grown products often are grown so that they can be
• 32:49
  shipped and picked, and that they maintain their color and all of that.
• 32:54
  So, so there may be a lot of things involved with why
• 32:58
  you might choose organic.
• 32:59
  If you can afford to choose organic foods and you are concerned about
• 33:06
  pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, et cetera, that are synthetic,
• 33:11
  then great, if you can afford that and you don't restrict your diet
• 33:18
  If you cannot afford that, you will be-- there's no data to say
• 33:24
  you will be less healthy or you're putting your family at risk.
• 33:28
  What you need to do is wash your produce just like people who purchase organic.
• 33:35
  And if you are…
• 33:38
  The, one thing that we do know is that many of these chemicals are
• 33:42
  fat soluble And so whether you drink whole milk, you're eating meat, maybe
• 33:50
  it's butter, other high-fat foods that you might have in a regular
• 33:57
  amount every day in your diet.
• 33:59
  If you can, those might be the foods that you choose to be organic.
• 34:06
  Because if you're concerned about chemicals in your foods,
• 34:11
  they were, they will be the most concentrated in high-fat foods.
• 34:17
  And lastly, there's another reason to choose organic, and it has nothing to do
• 34:23
  with our health, but it's Mother Earth.
• 34:26
  it's also the farm workers who have to apply all these chemicals,
• 34:32
  and that's where we do have data.
• 34:34
  And we know that regarding soil and properties of regenerative farming
• 34:41
  and organic farming, that those are healthier for Mother Earth.
• 34:46
  And there are data that farm workers who apply these chemicals may
• 34:53
  have higher risks to their health.
• 34:56
  And so choosing organic may help in that situation.
• 35:02
  But most important for your health is to not be afraid.
• 35:07
  And so my concern over publications like the Healthy 15, which is
• 35:15
  this list of healthiest produce, least amount of chemical,
• 35:21
  pesticides
• 35:22
  on the produce.
• 35:24
  The issue that I have with their methodology is that they are telling
• 35:30
  you which produce choices, fruits and vegetables, have the least amount
• 35:37
  of, of chemical compounds found on the produce when you buy it.
• 35:42
  However, there's no data about health.
• 35:46
  Why are we telling people this?
• 35:49
  it makes people fearful.
• 35:52
  And so you don't choose maybe strawberries or, whatever may be
• 35:57
  on that list of what not to choose.
• 36:01
  And so all you have to do is wash it.
• 36:05
  And, and then you wash pretty much everything off.
• 36:08
  Anything that promotes fear to sell you something, you should be suspect of.
• 36:15
  Anyone who tells you, "Be afraid of X, you should buy my Y-" you should be
• 36:22
  asking, "Is that why truly any better?
• 36:27
  Is there anything really wrong with what they're telling me to be afraid of?"
• 36:32
  Because that is not the way we talk about health promotion.
• 36:37
  When we talk about
• 36:38
  Pam Peeke, MD: and i- it's, it's that fear-driven stuff makes me crazy.
• 36:42
  For everyone out there, the Clean 15, which, Sue was talking
• 36:47
  about, was a list developed by the Environmental Working Group.
• 36:51
  And I think that, you know, Sue, your point about the fact that, yes, we have
• 36:55
  this list of 15, I'll rattle them off, but, you know, what does it really mean
• 37:02
  if you actually, you know, eat this versus other fruits and vegetables?
• 37:08
  So it's pineapple, sweet corn, avocados, papaya, onions, sweet peas, asparagus,
• 37:14
  cabbage, cauliflower, watermelon, mangoes, bananas, carrots, mushrooms, and kiwi.
• 37:20
  Okay, there's your Clean 15.
• 37:22
  But what about everything else?
• 37:24
  You know, what's, what's happening is we lack data on, on what
• 37:29
  happens with the ultimate long-term outcome on health and wellness.
• 37:34
  So, ugh.
• 37:36
  Okay, now let's pivot to another one.
• 37:39
  All right?
• 37:41
  If I just eat less, I will most definitely just drop a boatload of weight.
• 37:48
  I'm just gonna eat less.
• 37:49
  That's it.
• 37:50
  So I'm normally eating about, you know, 3,000, maybe even 4,000 calories a day.
• 37:56
  That's it.
• 37:58
  I'm gonna eat less.
• 37:59
  And for that matter, I heard from one of my friends on TikTok, okay, that
• 38:06
  if I ate about 1,200 calories a day, then, oh my gosh, you know, weight
• 38:12
  will just fly off me, and I will feel so much better in those skinny jeans.
• 38:17
  And by the way, I probably need to drop about, oh, I don't know, 30, 40 pounds.
• 38:23
  All right.
• 38:23
  What…
• 38:24
  Remember the years, and it's still happening, I hear it all the time.
• 38:31
  You know, I'll go out with somebody, you know, some woman who's saying, "Well,
• 38:33
  you know, I'm, I'm watching my calories."
• 38:38
  And then I watch her pick seriously for lunch, for lunch, something
• 38:43
  that, that basically is a bowl of iceberg lettuce with a, you know,
• 38:48
  some tomatoes thrown in and a little bit of this and that, but no protein.
• 38:52
  And the whole thing is, and she'll just feel so good and light today.
• 38:58
  All right, go for it, Sue
• 39:00
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 39:00
  So, you know, this one
• 39:03
  Pam Peeke, MD: I know, I know.
• 39:05
  I'm like right there with you.
• 39:07
  Ugh
• 39:08
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 39:08
  So, ah, you know, what's the real goal?
• 39:13
  Why do you wanna lose weight?
• 39:15
  I mean, is it just for tomorrow?
• 39:18
  Is it just to get into that red dress for a, a, a cruise you're going on
• 39:23
  or something, and then you're gonna go back to your healthy eating?
• 39:27
  Or, or is this to, you think, for long-term health?
• 39:31
  And so number one, weight loss is an outcome in my world, not a goal.
• 39:37
  The goal is changing all the habits that will keep you healthy for a lifetime.
• 39:43
  And when you do that, you, you, you…
• 39:46
  Like I said, it makes sure you're getting your healthy protein, your
• 39:49
  healthy fats, your healthy carbs.
• 39:51
  You're getting fluids in.
• 39:53
  You're eating, you know, whole grains.
• 39:55
  You're getting in your fruits and vegetables.
• 39:57
  You're getting in good exercise on a daily basis.
• 40:00
  You're taking care of your mental health.
• 40:02
  You've got a creative outlet, a spiritual outlet.
• 40:04
  You've got relationships that you're building.
• 40:07
  You're doing something that, that makes you feel good.
• 40:10
  You're productive in your life You get all of that.
• 40:15
  Those are the goals, and then if you need to lose weight, you will.
• 40:19
  I mean, it's just, that's kind of the way it works.
• 40:23
  It's slower, for sure.
• 40:26
  But if you just cut calories, let's say you were eating 3,500 calories a
• 40:31
  day and now you go to 1,200, here we go again, you're gonna feel like crap.
• 40:36
  You're not gonna stick to it.
• 40:37
  It's gonna be another diet that you go on to go off.
• 40:39
  That's what Americans do.
• 40:41
  That's what diets are in the United States, something to go on to go off.
• 40:45
  You can't wait to stop it.
• 40:47
  it's very hard to stick to.
• 40:48
  It's painful.
• 40:50
  Eating should be joyous, should be wonderful.
• 40:55
  It should give us joy because that's part of what helps
• 40:58
  satisfy us while we're eating.
• 41:01
  And so if you remove yourself from all the times we eat in a day, in a
• 41:06
  week, in a month, where they are really celebratory events, and I used to say
• 41:13
  to a client, "You know, while you're arguing with the brownie on the buffet
• 41:17
  table, you miss the cute guy who was looking at you, and, all you were thinking
• 41:22
  about was what you can't eat next."
• 41:24
  And so I want people to think about what they need to eat,
• 41:28
  not what they can't eat next.
• 41:30
  This shouldn't be such a negative event.
• 41:33
  When you, when you limit your calories, the idea of exercising more, forget it.
• 41:41
  You're exhausted.
• 41:42
  At the end of your day, you're sitting on the couch and probably, ultimately,
• 41:46
  getting the ice cream out of the freezer because you're both hungry
• 41:50
  and exhausted, and that drive to eat will overcome everything and your body
• 41:55
  says, "I need quick calories fast."
• 41:58
  So it's not your bad willpower.
• 42:00
  It is basic physiology pushing you to eat that carton of ice cream.
• 42:05
  So why set yourself up for disaster?
• 42:09
  Set yourself up for success by feeding yourself what you need throughout
• 42:13
  the day, and I know we're gonna get to the circadian rhythm conversation
• 42:18
  because it always comes up.
• 42:20
  This is very critical to allowing your body to detox, allowing your body to
• 42:27
  process fats during the night, allowing your body to rest and relax and repair,
• 42:33
  and your brain and mental health to be ready for the next day to do the
• 42:38
  things, as I said, that really are our lifelong goals for health and wellness.
• 42:46
  Pam Peeke, MD: I think it's human to wanna just get it over with.
• 42:52
  Let's just, you know, find body hacks.
• 42:55
  Let's find short-term, you know, shortcuts.
• 42:59
  let's find a way to get this over with.
• 43:01
  It's almost like you came out of a coma, and then you
• 43:05
  suddenly realize, "Oh, my God.
• 43:08
  What have I done to my body?"
• 43:11
  You know, because so much of what's going on today is people just
• 43:16
  live in a, in a mental fog where they don't want to acknowledge
• 43:25
  what's going on with their body.
• 43:26
  Their knees hurt.
• 43:28
  Their sleep is rotten.
• 43:31
  they've got a weird mood.
• 43:33
  They're depressed a lot.
• 43:35
  They're anxio- whatever.
• 43:36
  It just goes on and on, and you just want it all to go away.
• 43:42
  I understand that.
• 43:45
  Been there, done that, multiple T-shirts, okay?
• 43:49
  You just want to be done with it.
• 43:52
  All right?
• 43:52
  So I want this fat out of here.
• 43:55
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 43:55
  Right.
• 43:55
  Pam Peeke, MD: I want the muscle.
• 43:57
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 43:57
  I I look at, I I, look at, and, and I'm sure you see it as well, women our age,
• 44:04
  right, who did restrict their whole lives.
• 44:08
  They were the tiny, little, cute, sort of ma- reflected the
• 44:13
  magazine articles of our day.
• 44:16
  Today, I'm the same age.
• 44:20
  I stand up straight, I can hike 20 miles, I can ride my bike, I can, you
• 44:28
  know, take care of little children.
• 44:30
  I can do all the things that I want to do at this point in my life.
• 44:36
  I feel strong, I look great in clothes, my arms are good, I'm wearing sleeveless.
• 44:42
  I wore sleeveless to my daughter's wedding three weeks ago.
• 44:46
  And the women in my community that I see at the gym are hunched over,
• 44:55
  very skinny, like you said, bad knees, bad neck, bad shoulders,
• 45:01
  Pam Peeke, MD: Bad back
• 45:02
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 45:02
  bad back, can't function well, don't sleep well, have so many problems
• 45:11
  that they just attribute to aging.
• 45:14
  And it's not aging catches up with you one way or the other, but you can get
• 45:23
  through life and time really strong, but you've got to take care of this body.
• 45:30
  Pam Peeke, MD: And, and you can't starve it, and you can't undereat it
• 45:35
  so that you can proudly walk around saying, "I'm a size whatever," right?
• 45:41
  And you could say, "Oh, looky, looky here."
• 45:43
  But what did you do to yourself, you know, for that to happen?
• 45:48
  You know, to be perfectly blunt with you.
• 45:51
  Instead, how fit are you?
• 45:55
  How-- What is your ability to be able to get up off the floor all
• 46:01
  by your lonesome, with no help whatsoever, and you're strong, and
• 46:05
  you could do that 10-mile hike.
• 46:07
  You could do all of these amazing…
• 46:10
  Can your body do that?
• 46:12
  That's what I care about.
• 46:14
  And then whatever your body looks like is sort of secondarily what it's gonna
• 46:20
  be, because that's what fitness does.
• 46:23
  Fitness literally reshapes you in an absolutely beautiful way, in a way
• 46:30
  where you've got that glow, you've got the toned body, in a big way.
• 46:36
  Do you have to be skinny mini?
• 46:37
  Heck no.
• 46:39
  Oh my God.
• 46:40
  For the, for that matter, you know, it's the opposite.
• 46:43
  Instead of getting small, you wanna get big, but you wanna
• 46:46
  get big in the right way.
• 46:48
  You wanna, you know, have those muscles on board to keep you independent, you know?
• 46:55
  So this is why I brought up this final myth, which is the whole issue
• 47:01
  of, you know, starving yourself.
• 47:06
  You know, i- it's really interesting.
• 47:08
  You're starving yourself so small that you're invisible.
• 47:11
  Who wants to be invisible?
• 47:13
  I wanna be in your face.
• 47:16
  I wanna be all over the place, just like you, Sue.
• 47:19
  when you and I are teaching and you and I are working w- in our corporate
• 47:22
  worlds of nutrition and fitness, you know, we want people to listen up.
• 47:27
  Listen up, okay?
• 47:29
  We have a two-gun salute, all right?
• 47:32
  That's what we're doing, and that was arms for you, on the audio only.
• 47:38
  and honestly, that's what I'm arguing for.
• 47:42
  No more of this starve yourself.
• 47:44
  strong is the new skinny, you know, that weird idea of skinny.
• 47:49
  If anyone ever called me skinny, I'd take them aside and, you
• 47:52
  know, after a little bitch slap, I'd say, "Hey, listen, all right?
• 47:56
  No.
• 47:57
  That's a no.
• 47:58
  It's strong.
• 47:59
  Strong is what I want.
• 48:01
  Fit is what I want.
• 48:02
  You give me those adjectives, and we're good.
• 48:05
  We're aligned."
• 48:06
  Does that make sense, Sue?
• 48:07
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 48:07
  Absolutely.
• 48:08
  And, And, there's no doubt that if you are overeating and you lower your calories,
• 48:15
  it's probably a good thing to do.
• 48:17
  but not to restrict so far that you can't do all the things that you want to do in
• 48:24
  the day, or that you lower your body's ability to, to function at peak levels.
• 48:31
  Because when it's functioning at peak levels is when you're
• 48:35
  going to burn the most fat.
• 48:37
  So, having all the foods we've said over and over and over again, a
• 48:43
  variety of them dispersed throughout the day, is really important.
• 48:48
  And when you choose whole foods versus lots of ultraprocessed boxed and
• 48:55
  packaged foods, snack foods, when you plan your meals, when you know and eat
• 49:02
  strategically, you do feel more full.
• 49:06
  You don't want to eat as much.
• 49:09
  You end up eating fewer calories naturally.
• 49:14
  But it does take mindfulness.
• 49:17
  It does take planning.
• 49:19
  I talk about the, you know, four-letter words of nutrition,
• 49:23
  which is plan, shop and cook.
• 49:25
  Unfortunately, it does take doing that, because when you're letting other people
• 49:32
  give you food all the time, whether from the grocery store or restaurants
• 49:37
  or fast food or Uber Eats or whatever it is, there are lots of hidden calories.
• 49:43
  There are lots of ingredients that are not wholesome.
• 49:46
  and you end up eating much more.
• 49:49
  And
• 49:49
  Pam Peeke, MD: I like to be in control, so give me the damn thing and I'll cook
• 49:53
  it, 'cause then I know what went into it.
• 49:55
  That's why when you said the four-letter word cook, I got so excited because
• 49:59
  so many people are like, "Cook?"
• 50:02
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 50:02
  Right
• 50:03
  Pam Peeke, MD: What's that about?
• 50:04
  I mean, it's falling in love with food.
• 50:07
  You know, Sue, I could talk to you forever and a day, and we might just
• 50:11
  do that one day, just sort of do some marathon like eight-hour gig until
• 50:15
  we're so sick of looking at each other.
• 50:17
  But for today, this has been a fabulous episode.
• 50:21
  I think, women out there are really appreciating what we've just said, so
• 50:27
  'cause it's so common sense, but it's also just chock-full of wonderful work.
• 50:32
  How can people learn more about your work?
• 50:36
  Susan M. Kleiner, PhD:
• 50:36
  Well, I am at drskleiner.com,
• 50:40
  my website.
• 50:41
  That's D-R-S-K-L-E-I-N-E-R.com.
• 50:46
  I am on Instagram @powereat.
• 50:50
  And, there's my book, The New Power Eating.
• 50:55
  if you can find an older one, that is less sort of athletically
• 50:59
  driven, it is The Good Mood Diet.
• 51:02
  And, those are probably the best ways to find me
• 51:06
  Pam Peeke, MD: Awesome.
• 51:07
  And Sue, once again, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your expertise.
• 51:15
  once again, you and I have a good laugh too at the same time, 'cause
• 51:18
  that's what it's really all about.
• 51:20
  So bless you, bless you, bless you.
• 51:23
  And I also wanna give a shout-out to our wonderful sponsor, SkinSafe.
• 51:27
  It's an app developed by the Mayo Clinic, and it takes the guesswork out
• 51:33
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• 51:53
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• 51:58
  Download the app for free and use the link in the ad with this wonderful episode to
• 52:05
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• 52:10
  And take a moment right now, everyone, and leave us a review
• 52:13
  because we love to hear from you.
• 52:17
  And here's the quote of the day, and this is from Winnie-the-Pooh.
• 52:23
  This is one of my most favorite ones
• 52:26
  "Promise me you'll always remember you're braver than you believe and stronger than
• 52:34
  you seem and smarter than you think."
• 52:38
  And that is Christopher Robin to Winnie-the-Pooh.
• 52:43
  I, have to remind you that you are brave, strong and smart, crying out loud, okay?
• 52:49
  Start believing it right now.
• 52:51
  Now get out there and seize the day.
• 52:52
  A little bit of carpe diem.
• 52:54
  Thanks, everyone