Latest / The Prompt / Ep. 571 | Marketing leadership in the age of AI: Building smarter teams and measurable growth

Transcript

Ep. 571 | Marketing leadership in the age of AI: Building smarter teams and measurable growth · The Prompt

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  I think the biggest opportunity that I see there is of being
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  able to actually track the touch points because the struggle that
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  we have is attribution and you, you we have created like
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  attribution models. And so, but you know, they're
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  all have some kind of flaws. They're never perfect.
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  AI gives us the opportunity to be able to kind of track the
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  complete customer journey. And this is becoming real.
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  Finally. We have talked about customer
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  journeys forever. The biggest learning is don't
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  just hire an AI expert. Yes, you will need technologies.
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  You will need people who know that better than others, who can
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  build agents and stuff like that.
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  But you should always think about who are the people in your
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  team who can actually bring you to the next level in AI.
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  So bring the expertise within your existing team and embed AI
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  within an existing team. This is on base your one stop
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  shop for solving your most pressing B to B go to market
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  challenges. Each week, host Chris Moody and
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  Paul Gibson talk to sales and marketing leaders to get you in
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  depth insights and creative strategies to set your revenue
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  teams up for success. Hey everyone, welcome back to
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  the Home Based Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Moody and
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  today I'm very excited to have just meet Suhani with us to talk
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  about marketing leadership in an AI driven world.
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  Just me. Thanks for joining us today and
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  welcome to the show. Thanks, Chris.
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  Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
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  Awesome. Well, I love seeing a lot of
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  mutual connections. That's always a good sign when
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  we're checking LinkedIn. I like to start every single
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  episode with understanding a little bit about what led you to
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  what you're doing today. So tell us about the journey
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  that brought you to what you're doing now.
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  Absolutely. It's been a little bit
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  unconventional, I would say from marketing standpoint, because I
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  started in tech. I have a computer science
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  degree, so I started in a product group developing as an
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  engineer. And I've been in the startup
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  world forever and more, I would say entrepreneurial environment,
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  right? And that's what I really like
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  about this environment, that it gives you the flexibility to
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  move around, flexibility and opportunity to actually look
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  into other roles that might be of interest to you.
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  And I moved from product to business development to sales
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  enablement and finally marketing, which I really
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  thought that this is my home. And over time, the expertise
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  I've been able to build has been at the intersection of this
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  marketing, data analytics and technology.
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  And I never thought, you know, starting out that technology
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  would be a great asset going into marketing.
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  I think most people never think of marketing that way.
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  And it actually became for the biggest assets that I have being
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  a marketing leader. Awesome.
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  Especially today we're going to talk about that timing is
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  perfect for us to be together. This morning our CEO actually
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  sent out AI principles to the entire company and it was, you
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  know, a lot of our rules and our guidelines and the nudge for
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  every single person to be using AI to make our jobs better and
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  gave some specifications there and the ability to fail, right?
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  Don't expect to be perfect, but we all need to embrace this.
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  So the question I have is a very relevant one for me, but why
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  should marketing leaders care deeply about a is growing role
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  in marketing today? AI has been around for a while
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  when you know, it all started in like 1950s or so and it became
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  in the last five to 10 years, we've talked a lot about AI and
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  how it will, it's going to transform the business.
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  What has happened in the last, you know, couple of years is
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  with the LMS and the Gen. AI making it very real and
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  unavoidable right now. You just talked about how your
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  CEO send that e-mail and you know everyone should be using
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  and that is exactly what is happening at an individual
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  level. Everyone I know is using AI to
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  do their work. Now the problem the business
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  leaders face is how do you now take that and scale it at an
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  operation level for the business, which is the big and
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  complex problem that they're trying to solve.
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  So now the change has been that has become unavoidable.
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  You cannot just say just have a wrapper or a label of something
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  that you were doing under the hood, the traditional way and
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  just say, Hey, we are using AI, right?
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  With that. We saw all of the this, you
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  know, in the last five to 10 years where things were labeled
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  AI, but under the hood you were just doing plain analytics,
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  right? And you know, we are in data
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  analytics business. So we we should know this,
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  right? And you know, you've seen this,
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  but now it's unavoidable. If you don't do this, then, you
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  know, your question, what's at stake?
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  Now you could take 2 views of this, right?
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  I mean, there is this pessimistic view of saying, you
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  know, people are losing jobs and they're going to, you know, be
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  out of skills and you will not be in the workforce, which is
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  true, which is scary. But I think the bigger thing
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  that's at stake is that this is the biggest opportunity for our
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  generation. If you don't leverage this
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  opportunity, that's what at stake.
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  I mean, think about it. A small company can now compete
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  with large, you know, hundreds and thousands of people with
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  just, you know, few people and you know, thousand agents
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  working for them. That's becoming deal as we
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  speak. So that gives you the level of
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  opportunity that we have at this time.
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  And if you don't use that, that's what I think from
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  optimistic side, that's what is at stake if you don't leverage
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  that. Yeah, that's a perfect answer.
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  And it it makes me think about the leaders which you hit on
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  this to the scale aspect and getting every single person to
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  embrace AI. How do you see AI fundamentally
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  shaping the role of marketing leadership, especially if we
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  think about alignment, collaborating with sales?
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  There's always a data story, right?
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  Garbage in, garbage out. All the things that you may hit
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  on here, but what is going to change for marketing leadership?
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  I think this is time when you cannot really avoid being
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  technical or knowing data and getting your hands dirty.
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  So as I said before, you know, this creative side of marketing
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  has been glorified and people have built their careers around
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  that, right? I mean, you know, and this
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  actually with a digital, there was some kind of uneasiness for
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  people who are who came from that, you know, creative side.
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  But it was not was it wasn't enough.
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  And I think the fundamental shift that we'll see is that
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  leaders now have to get comfortable with data and
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  technology and AI to be able to actually succeed in the coming
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  future. I'll take an example of if you
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  are setting goals for your team, and I'm just, you know, talking
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  about marketing goals and there's talk about this
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  multiplier effect, how do I even judge if it's that multiplier is
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  1.2 or is it like NX or 20X or 5X?
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  And if I don't have that understanding of how the process
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  is going to change, because there's a lot of lift and shift
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  in today's world, if you think about implementing gauge and
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  most people are talking about, hey, how do we automate stuff
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  that we are already doing? What people are not thinking
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  about is your whole process is going to change as well.
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  So if I don't have that technical understanding and deep
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  understanding of how that's going to change my process, how
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  do I even create my the goals for my teams?
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  What do I sign up for? So it's a fundamental shift in
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  terms of understanding where the technology is taking us and then
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  arriving at the strategy and the the execution part of it to be
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  able to lead A-Team today, That's what I think, you know,
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  it's going to be changing at the fundamental level.
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  Yeah, I, I totally agree. And you had on that fundamental
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  shift and you also said lift and shift, which made me think a lot
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  about my 20 years in marketing. And you've watched all these new
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  tools and technologies come out. I think marketing, we get pretty
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  good at them and then there's a new one and we jump to the next
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  one. So to me, I'm almost seeing like
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  marketing automation, content marketing, social and just boom,
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  jump to the next, jump to the next, jump to the next.
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  I think that transition for what's next and what's new and
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  even the shift to digital has been a challenge for marketing
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  leaders in the past to make sure that everyone is still doing
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  their jobs well but staying ahead of the curve.
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  I'm curious if there are some lessons that come from those
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  shifts to digital and a lot of the evolution of marketing
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  technology and sales technology that you've seen that we should
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  apply to the transition to be more AI driven.
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  So are there any learnings that you're thinking about that we
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  all should pay attention to? It's a very interesting thing,
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  you know, because this is an active conversation.
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  Everyone is thinking about, hey, how do we now transform our
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  function, whether it's marketing, HR, whichever part of
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  business you are in now with AI, right?
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  And the first thing that people come up with, hey, let's hire an
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  AI export. And this is exactly what people
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  did in the digital age. You know, when digital marketing
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  came around, people, you know, the leaders at that time, they
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  hired an digital specialist, digital export and made that as
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  a function within marketing, only to see that over time
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  everything became digital and that role became irrelevant.
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  So I always say this, you know, they did this because they want
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  you to save their jobs and just check the box and say, Hey, we,
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  we are digital now, right? And we saw the evolution that
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  over time, as you just described, you know, it's
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  constantly changing. So if you do not have a digital
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  process and people who are trained in digital, it's
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  actually going to fail. So I think the biggest learning
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  is don't just hire an AI expert. Yes, you will need technologies.
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  You will need people who know that better than others who can
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  build agents and stuff like that.
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  But you should always think about who are the people in your
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  team who can actually bring you to the next level in AI.
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  So bring the expertise within your existing team and embed AI
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  within an existing team. And that's the better way to
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  evolve than actually having that silo.
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  And that's, you know, the one learning, I would say, you know,
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  from the digital world, digital time, because, you know, that's
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  what everyone did. And eventually they realized
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  that was not sustainable. I smirked when you were
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  responding because when you were talking about digital marketing,
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  that made me think about all the keywords stuffing you and I
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  probably did in our resumes right back.
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  Exactly. And I remember comma digital
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  marketing, comma right as a specialty.
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  And I, I didn't think about that when I was asking the question,
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  but once I heard it played back, it really has happened quickly
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  where in, in my head we've always been digital, but that
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  was something we put in resumes to match job titles and the
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  director of digital marketing. So I hear you on that.
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  You mentioned in your, your journey both product, product
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  marketing and sales enablement. And my brain immediately goes to
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  sales enablement, which by the way, product marketing and sales
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  enablement, I still think are two of the most challenging
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  marketing functions, just in my personal opinions.
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  So good on you for crushing both of those.
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  How do we make sure that as leaders, we are training our
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  teams to be ready for AI tools and processes?
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  And the disclaimer I'll put on that you hit on a a very
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  important point as well. You said that a lot of folks are
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  trying to automate things and we're trying to get
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  efficiencies. And I, I do totally agree with
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  you. I don't think as many are
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  thinking, hey, if we can automate those things, how can
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  AI help us to be more strategic, more creative, more successful,
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  beat our competitors at a higher rate?
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  I, I think we've tackled efficiency a little bit.
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  So if we think sales enablement across the board, how do we make
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  sure our teams are embracing AI and using it the right way?
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  Yeah, So, you know, the harsh part of this is not everyone is
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  going to come along, which is, you know, a sad and difficult.
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  And this is what we saw during the Internet age because certain
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  generation of people who could not come along and adapt became
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  irrelevant. And that's the biggest fear of,
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  I hope every leader, right, because everyone wants to bring
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  around their along their team. The most important thing is, as
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  I said, you know, you have to kind of understand what are the
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  skill sets of people and where can you leverage them?
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  You know, you talked about strategy, you talked about, you
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  know, elevating, you know, how do we kind of elevate this
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  creativity aspect of marketing? How do we make the data better?
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  All of these are specific areas where you have team members who
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  are experts in certain things and they may not be good at
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  building something, building agents, they may not be good at
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  automating stuff, but they're good at, you know, those
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  specific things. So it's about kind of providing
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  those trainings and tools and having them adapt.
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  It's going to be a slow evolution no matter, you know
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  how quick we want it to be. It's going to take some time for
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  people to come along, but eventually people are using it
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  everyday, right? As long as you enable all of
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  that, they're empowered and they're learning everyday and
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  they're on a track. So what I'm doing is, you know,
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  talking to the team and understanding which parts of
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  business can they impact with AI, what are the use cases
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  bottoms up? Because a lot of it, you know,
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  as we see with our customers as well as kind of driven top down
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  saying, you know, we want to automate these functions, these
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  areas, these, you know, specific processes without understanding.
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  Does that even have the impact that you actually hope to
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  achieve? Because people who are actually
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  using these processes, turning these processes are the ones
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  actually who can automate it the best.
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  So having these bottoms up understanding of what are those
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  areas that can be automated and having the people involved who
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  are actually doing that in that automation is actually going to
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  be very useful. And when you talk about sales
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  enablement, it's kind of, you know, making sure now sales sees
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  the impact of that because delivering a certain piece of as
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  you know, content or an asset to them to take it to the customer
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  is not going to cut the thing anymore, right?
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  I mean, you have to, you come from the ABM space, right?
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  I mean, it has to be really personalized and AI gives us
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  that power to be able to personalize it to the next
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  level, which is, by the way, most companies still struggle
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  with that personalization at a stakeholder level.
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  You may personalize stuff at an account level, but now that is a
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  new process that I talked about which does not exist.
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  Now AI can enable that. So how do you kind of now create
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  these new processes with AII? Think that's kind of the journey
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  we're going to be on. Yeah, personalization is such a
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  good one too, because the the bar is high.
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  I think our you and I for us to open an e-mail and I looked over
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  at my my e-mail tab. For us to open an e-mail, it has
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  to be personal, it has to be relevant, has to communicate
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  value. If it feels like it was sent to
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  1000 other people, there's no chance we're going to engage.
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  And, you know, a partner texted me earlier today and sent me a
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  Cameo video from a player from Duke basketball, which I'm a
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  Duke fan and NC State fan too. But there was a lot of personal
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  information in the cameo video from Seth Curry.
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  So Steph Curry's brother, But he played it Duke.
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  He knew my story. And, you know, just the
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  relationship building aspect of that, that was perfect, right?
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  I mean, that is what we have to do.
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  And to that point, you know, just getting you to open that
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  e-mail itself can be really elevated with AI because a lot
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  of the marketers struggle with this, you know, sending an
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  e-mail and not getting any, you know, the open dates like suck,
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  right? So how do you kind of change
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  that? And with all the data that you
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  can have with the new technologies that are coming in
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  that can actually improve, you know, even, you know, because
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  content is second step, how do you even actually get people to
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  open it? So those are kind of the things
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  you know, and there's going to be different channels.
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  People have preference. So you know, you have learning
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  about that. So there's a lot of
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  personalization that can happen with AI.
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  Yeah. Well, you hit on the marketing
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  multiplier earlier, which makes me go to ROI, marketing
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  attribution, 2 things that have driven plenty of marketers
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  insane over the years trying to get to those.
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  What are the key opportunities that you see AI presenting to
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  help solve some of those tricky challenges like proper
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  attribution or measuring ROI? Yeah.
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  I think the biggest opportunity that I see there is of being
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  able to actually track the touch points because the struggle that
• 17:22
  we have is attribution and you, you we've created like
• 17:26
  attribution models. And so, but you know, they're
• 17:29
  all have some kind of flaws. They're never perfect.
• 17:33
  AI gives us the opportunity to be able to kind of track the
• 17:37
  complete customer journey and this is becoming real.
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  Finally. We have talked about customer
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  journeys forever, but now with AI, you're able to track every
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  single e-mail, not from, you know, the mailboxes that
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  marketing controls, but all the mailboxes that are interacting
• 17:53
  with customers. That's powerful and I think
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  that's the kind of the opportunity of tracking touch
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  points and creating customer journey is kind of the biggest
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  win that we can see in attribution and measuring the
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  ARY because you know, from the first touch point and now close,
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  if you're able to see all the interactions, you can
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  confidently say this is the marketing influence on this
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  specific deal. And that's what did not exist
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  before. And that's again, going back to,
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  you know, creating new processes with AI and not just doing lift
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  and shift. So that's kind of the, you know,
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  I'm really excited about that opportunity actually, you know,
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  on a personal in a business front because that you know,
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  marketing has now the empowerment to actually do that.
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  Yeah, absolutely. You talked about some will
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  inevitably be left behind and I think that has been a recurring
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  theme and marketing honestly, where sometimes folks are too
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  specialized and not paying attention to how things are
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  changing or this is a fad and they don't catch up and then
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  boom, it's gone. How should leaders reassess
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  their teams and objectives and frameworks to stay competitive
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  in this AI driven landscape? There are two ways to think
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  about this, right? The first would be if you talk
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  about doers and directors, right?
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  If you split the workforce in the AIH, we'll have these doers
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  and directors. Now, you know, think about the
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  role of the doers, where only the doers who are really good
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  and skilled at the best in their craft are probably going to
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  survive. Who are, you know, still doing
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  stuff and not directing stuff? And the other ones I think I can
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  think of as, you know, the people who are able to leverage
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  AI so much that they've almost become superhumans.
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  They would still have a lot of value in the ecosystem.
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  Now, if you think about it, now the doors are going to, the
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  number of doors are going to go down because AI is going to pick
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  up a lot of their doing stuff and directors.
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  Now, how do you know, manage the directors?
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  Because they swell if you cannot have that many directors doing
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  stuff. So, you know, of course there's
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  going to be new hierarchy of, you know, that's this is again,
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  you know, some assumptions that I'm making here.
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  There's going to be new hierarchy of directors on, you
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  know, people who are actually managing work, whether that's AI
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  driven work, whether it's the interpretation of that work or,
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  you know, the people who are actually orchestrating and doing
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  the strategy work. So those are kind of what will
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  be the two buckets. That's one way of thinking about
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  it, right? The other way to think about it
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  is the. You know, you'll have these
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  creative LED people who are like from the creative side and they
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  are leveraging AI to now elevate what they're able to come up
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  with. And then there's engineering LED
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  people who have leveraging AI in the best way.
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  So that's the other way to think about, you know, thinking about
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  the frameworks of teams. And my hypothesis is that, you
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  know, since it's all going to be driven by AI, everyone is going
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  to be leveraging AI. They're going to be more AI
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  engineers then creative LED people.
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  And that's also kind of ties to the fundamental chip that I
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  talked about that, you know, even leaders cannot be left
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  behind. You have to be involved every
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  day and actually thinking about where this technology is taking
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  us and getting their hands dirty.
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  So that's kind of the, you know, the different ways of thinking
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  about where this is going and you know, if you want to
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  structure it in that way. That's great.
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  It's funny, a lot of times I feel like I'm unlocking better
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  ways to use AI internally for work when I use AI personally,
• 21:27
  you know, as a parent and coaching kids.
• 21:30
  And hey, what should we work on with baseball?
• 21:33
  Just all the ways answer key for homework, just thinking of very
• 21:38
  specific things. But then, oh, what if we take
• 21:41
  some ideas of things they like and then turn that into meal
• 21:44
  suggestions and then the grocery list, Just literally anything.
• 21:48
  And I do think there are times where we're a little rigid in
• 21:53
  our work personalities, and sometimes we don't take risk and
• 21:57
  it's hard to take risk. So I'm curious how, you know
• 22:01
  right now, I feel this urge to tell everyone creativity is the
• 22:07
  path forward. We have to be more creative.
• 22:09
  That's the way to differentiate how do we fight that internal
• 22:13
  resistance to push for unconventional marketing bets
• 22:17
  and get permission to do that? The biggest thing that everyone
• 22:21
  runs against is the risk of failure because most leaders are
• 22:25
  concerned, especially in large corporations where you know,
• 22:27
  things are not that nimble. Everyone is very protective of
• 22:30
  their role and their teams. So nobody wants to fail.
• 22:34
  And what I typically, you know, I'm kind of running against this
• 22:38
  kind of risk, a worse kind of mindset.
• 22:41
  I think one way to think about this is you kind of paint a
• 22:44
  picture of what if you did not do this, what's at stake and
• 22:48
  kind of build that scenario as well.
• 22:50
  So now they have both sides like you do this because we think
• 22:54
  this is going to drive these outcomes.
• 22:56
  And by the way, there's, you know, risk and everything.
• 22:59
  And now let's look at what if we don't do this scenario and think
• 23:04
  about what risks do we have if we don't do this and come to a
• 23:09
  point where we see, OK, you know, maybe they start higher on
• 23:12
  this side and you know, you need to take this unconventional bed
• 23:15
  because you'll have to move forward a little bit, some of
• 23:18
  these transformation that are happening.
• 23:20
  I think the good thing is, and this is again going back to what
• 23:23
  you just said, we are experiencing efficiencies and
• 23:27
  productivity gains in our own lives, in everything.
• 23:31
  So now everyone has experienced that.
• 23:33
  So it has become very difficult to argue that this will not
• 23:37
  work. The big question is how would it
• 23:39
  work in the complex work environments?
• 23:42
  Because you know, we have all the control on our individual
• 23:45
  lives and you know, work fact we do at an individual level.
• 23:48
  But when you scale it to the team level, to the business
• 23:51
  level and function level, that becomes more complicated.
• 23:55
  So that's what the argument, you know, where we need to build on
• 23:59
  how can it actually transform at a function level?
• 24:02
  And the key lies in understanding specific use cases
• 24:07
  where you would have immediate ROI, you know, kind of low
• 24:10
  hanging stuff, and then build your case from there.
• 24:14
  And when I talked about, you know, having this AI expertise
• 24:18
  within the team is because you need to have deep process
• 24:22
  experience to be able to actually now find these high
• 24:26
  impact use cases that will actually, you know, bring the
• 24:30
  ROI that the leadership is looking for.
• 24:32
  And that's kind of, you know, where it's basically a
• 24:35
  combination of understanding the expertise, the deep processes
• 24:40
  and bringing the AI to actually help with that to kind of, you
• 24:44
  know, win over the argument. That's perfect.
• 24:47
  You answering that just made me think of a way I'm going to use
• 24:50
  AI to help me before our next marketing leadership off site.
• 24:54
  I'm not going to tell the team though, but I will document what
• 24:58
  I do and then after I present, I'll show them how I did it.
• 25:02
  So your exact description, just unlock something for me there.
• 25:07
  Thank you for that. We have one more question before
• 25:10
  we jump into kind of the lightning round, really fast
• 25:13
  ones and this one we're compiling all the answers for a
• 25:16
  survey. The challenge here is you can
• 25:19
  only respond with one thing. What is the single biggest
• 25:24
  challenge in B2B marketing today?
• 25:26
  I think it's still measuring ROI that for all the other things
• 25:30
  that we face, measuring ROI still is the biggest challenge.
• 25:33
  That's why I'm really hopeful, yeah, he's going to solve that.
• 25:36
  Awesome. Yeah, I think you can write a
• 25:39
  book on that too, if you get there first.
• 25:41
  Just go ahead. I want to use AI to be your
• 25:44
  ghost, right, And go for it. All right, we have a couple
• 25:48
  quick questions. We love asking these every
• 25:50
  single time. It gives us great compilations
• 25:53
  and lists that we can pull together.
• 25:54
  The first, What are your favorite tools and technologies
• 25:57
  that you're using today? So.
• 25:59
  You know, we were talking about AI, right?
• 26:00
  So there's a lot of tools out there and I think there's kind
• 26:04
  of, it is time consuming actually to pilot and you know,
• 26:08
  experiment with everything. But I love using cloud for my
• 26:12
  own content. We are experimenting with VO,
• 26:16
  the Google's LLM for media Lovable is amazing for, you
• 26:21
  know, designs and stuff. Believe it or not, I'm coding
• 26:24
  after like 25 years, 20 years or 25 years.
• 26:28
  Building agents is really fun. NA10 and Figma and you know
• 26:32
  others who are basically you, they help you kind of build
• 26:34
  these agents and apps. That's really fun thing to do.
• 26:38
  So those are some of the things, you know that we are working on.
• 26:40
  It's very exciting. Great suggestions there.
• 26:43
  What about Goodreads? And I am very generous with this
• 26:46
  one. It could be book, blog,
• 26:48
  newsletter, podcast, video. What are some of the best
• 26:50
  sources of content for you? I like you all know, on Harare,
• 26:54
  you know his book on Nexus, the history of information networks
• 26:58
  is amazing. I think that's a great book.
• 27:01
  Podcasts. I listened to a few podcasts,
• 27:04
  you know, some in marketing, some in non marketing, but
• 27:06
  marketing once you know, marketing against the grain by
• 27:09
  HubSpot is great. I think lately what I've found
• 27:12
  really helpful is as I've gone into kind of trying to build
• 27:17
  these agents, the YouTube videos that are out there by people who
• 27:21
  are actually doing that stuff. They're amazing tutorials.
• 27:24
  So I've been watching those a lot lately.
• 27:27
  So that's that does some of the things.
• 27:29
  Awesome. Love that.
• 27:30
  Yeah, we, we do a lot of that internally too.
• 27:33
  TikTok and Instagram have led to great product developments.
• 27:37
  I've talked to the product team on that too, because they're
• 27:39
  creators who are showing you exactly how to do all the things
• 27:42
  they're doing. So that's a great suggestion
• 27:44
  there. What about for people who
• 27:46
  inspires you in the B to B space?
• 27:49
  Mohan Sani is a professor at Kellogg.
• 27:51
  He happens to be my cousin as well.
• 27:53
  He's always a mentor, an inspiring figure.
• 27:56
  You know, Dharmesh from HubSpot is amazing how he has cut across
• 28:01
  from like strategy to culture and to, you know, touching on
• 28:06
  marketing stuff. And he's a CTO.
• 28:08
  So it's like amazing to, you know, see his insights and
• 28:11
  perspectives. And I've always been a fan of
• 28:14
  Gary Vaynerchuk. So those are kind of the names
• 28:17
  that come to mind. Yeah, those are really good.
• 28:19
  I like the commonality of ability to take risk of the the
• 28:24
  folks you you listed there. And you go from Kellogg
• 28:27
  professor to HubSpot and such a great growth story.
• 28:30
  And then Gary Vee, let's just just go just do so.
• 28:34
  Yeah, Great, great thread to follow there.
• 28:36
  And then the most important question of all, how can
• 28:39
  everyone get in touch with you after this episode?
• 28:42
  LinkedIn. Outstanding.
• 28:44
  Well, thank you so much for your time today.
• 28:45
  It's been a pleasure. I learned a time I'm actually
• 28:47
  going to go use AI to help me get ready for this off site
• 28:51
  based on this conversation. So thanks a lot.
• 28:54
  Thank you, Chris. This has been fun and of course
• 28:56
  I learned a lot as well. Thank you so much.
• 28:59
  Thanks for joining us for On Base.
• 29:01
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• 29:04
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• 29:14
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