Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / When It's Not Your Fault: Blame, Backlash, and Setting Limits
Transcript
- Megan Hunter Welcome to It's All Your Fault on TruStory FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you with the most challenging human interactions—those involving high conflict people. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddy. Bill Eddy Hi, everybody. Megan Hunter We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute and ConflictInfluencer.com, where we focus on training, consulting, coaching, classes, and educational programs and methods all to do with high conflict. So welcome, listeners. Thanks for joining us during your nap today. Hopefully you're getting a nap today. So today we're going to talk about the opposite of blame. The title of our podcast is It's All Your Fault. One of the things we're going to talk about today is it's not your fault. So why the "it's not your fault"? Well, Bill and I will explain. And sometimes it's not your fault even when a high conflict person says it is. So how do you know? What happens? All of that. Then we're going to kind of go into when we have to set a limit or have a difficult conversation with someone and we have that really crunchy feeling—like there's going to be anxiety, I'm gonna feel horrible when that person pushes back. So how do we push through that? And then if we have time today, we're going to also include what happens when you understand the patterns of high conflict behavior, of a high conflict personality—you begin to see things that others around you don't. And in some cases you may think, wow, I know where this is headed, and I think I should intervene, because I am willing to intervene and I can when others don't. But then I might get accused of being controlling by outsiders or even by the person themselves that you're trying to help. So is it okay to intervene when you see this? And I just want to give a shout out to Jasmine for talking to us about this topic of it's not your fault. So what is that? There's this trap, right—taking on what isn't yours when it comes to high conflict. You know, you have someone, let's say, that's just high empathy or just a normal person with regular empathy for other people. Sometimes we can feel a lot of responsibility when we're blamed for something or criticized about something. Most generally, in a high conflict situation, when the conflict is big, it's confusing. And we're often being blamed for something somewhere along the way for something we didn't do. Then we get the question mark over our heads and think, okay, what did I do? What did I do wrong? I need to change. I need to apologize. I need to take on the responsibility, and I need to try harder. So that's where we are. It's confusing. Some of us are fixers, and we want to resolve all conflict and be peaceful, so it can be very confusing. So, Bill, let me back up. Why do high conflict people blame? Why do they say it's all your fault? And get us into these situations? Bill Eddy Yeah, because that's the defining characteristic of a high conflict person. The number one is that they say it's all other people's fault, and they deny responsibility themselves. And so they go around saying it's all your fault, it's all your fault, it's all your fault. And that's generally a theme for their lives, which actually turns out to be very self-defeating. Because when you think everything is all other people's fault, then you take a position in life that you're a victim, that you're just helpless and things just happen to you and there's nothing you can do. Well, those are actually the least happy people. The happiest people are people that say, gee, it must be my fault—I'm going to do something different. And in life, that's actually a healthier approach. But with high conflict people, because they're so preoccupied with blame, as you said, Megan, we take on blame that isn't ours. And so especially if they say it's all your fault—it's like, oh my goodness, it's all my fault. And you kind of reflect on yourself and go, wait a minute. It's not my fault that they're screaming. Nothing requires being screamed at. And plus, like you said, I didn't do anything wrong. Now it may be a minor thing that's blown up, so sometimes there is something. I've made a mistake, but it doesn't match the emotional intensity and blame that's coming my way. And so I think what we do is look for what's my part in this problem, however small. And then once I've figured that out, is do I need to set limits? Because if I take it all on and I just keep focusing on myself—reasonable people start out looking at what did I do wrong, what can I do different, and that's healthy. But what isn't really healthy in relationships is if you totally just put things on your own shoulders that don't belong to you and don't set limits to protect yourself from other people's bad or inappropriate behavior. So I think that's the step that we're all learning now in society—there's high conflict people that need us to set limits on them and not just be self-doubting, self-reflective, et cetera. So we have to take responsibility for our part, because there's always a part, but it could be 1%—like, I chose this person that's treating me really badly. Maybe I hired them or dated them or something like that. That might be my responsibility, but the fact that they're treating me really badly isn't my responsibility. But what I can do is make better choices. So there's that, but then there's the setting limits part. So I'll go back to you, and then we can get into that. Megan Hunter Yeah. It's not always the words "it's all your fault" that come out of someone's mouth, but it's something similar—like, well, if you wouldn't have done that, I wouldn't have to react this way. You're the one that started this. Right? So you've tried to be peaceful, you've tried to use statements, you've done all the right things, and yet you still get some blame. And sometimes the blame is really big, like, I'm scared of you because you're just such a horrible person. And ultimately, that is blaming. Right? You are a scary, bad person, so it must be all your fault—every reason this conversation has gone south, every reason that we're in this dilemma or this pickle. I think most people really do have an automatic first thought that I did something wrong. This person must be right, because we're so used to the majority of our interactions and conversations with people being from this operating system A, right—that can take responsibility, that can reflect on their own behavior, who can apologize, who can get insight, all of those things. And when we get someone from operating system B, right, it's very much the opposite of that. And so we're just not used to going into our own plan B, which is to stop—stop before you engage, think about it. Do I really—was this really my fault? Because I sent that first text message asking the question—does that mean I should be blamed for this whole big thing? And really ask yourself these questions, because it's like reality testing yourself. And that way you don't get stuck in this blame loop, and I'm a big—I'm the one that's at fault here—because it does put you in a fear mode. And being in that fear mode, you're going to make decisions from your reactive, fear-based brain. And you don't want to do that. That's how conflicts grow bigger. So how do we kind of hijack that? Give yourself some reality testing and some reality checks. Talk to someone else and say, you know, am I at fault here? And it's not that you're trying to get validation that you're 100% right, but say, tell me—help me see maybe something I'm missing here. Do I have a blind spot? Or is this what I think it is? I think that's been helpful to me when I've had that big question mark and I'm feeling the really awful feelings of thinking it's all my fault, and I'm being blamed for something—especially when it's a false accusation, which many times it is when you're opposite a high conflict person. It's a false accusation—it's coming from their cognitive distortion. They may and probably do fully believe that you are it. So I think there is some kind of vibe that happens through that, that you internally then kind of absorb this guilty feeling. Bill Eddy Well, I think part of why we absorb that guilty feeling is the intensity. And the intensity tells you that as a person you're in danger, rather than somebody has a problem with a behavior of mine. And I've been thinking about that lately—that most of the time, most people have concerns about behavior. It's like, that behavior is not okay with me. But often with high conflict people, it's like, it's all your fault. You're an evil person. You should be eliminated. And that's what triggers our amygdala and our defense mechanisms—like, oh my goodness, this person is really threatening my existence, if not in their words, in the intensity of their emotions. Because the human brain knows that people kind of gear up before they become violent and dangerous, and that you should pay attention to tone of voice and body language and stuff like that. And high conflict people walk around like they're gearing up for an attack, and they may not be violent, but it triggers our anti-violence mechanism to protect ourselves and often to get away. So it's that whole person attack—it's all your fault—that really triggers us, versus, you know, Bill, I don't like what you said last week. Oh, I can deal with that. That's not life-threatening. So I think that's a big difference, and I think that's the difference between high conflict people and ordinary people giving negative feedback—we can handle that, and we should, when necessary, give negative feedback ourselves. But high conflict people just come on so strong. It's really threatening. Megan Hunter Yeah, and it's the blame—their automatic first thought is it's your fault. And then oftentimes they set their own limit next in all-or-nothing terms. Right? Which is, you can't come to—as was a case I had recently—you can't come to your grandmother's funeral. You hurt my feelings, so you can't come to the funeral. Well, now that's an extreme behavior. That's all or nothing. And you have someone in a lot of pain after that and feeling very sorrowful. Right? So then if they're sort of a conflict avoider, they might just hunker down and say, okay, fine—and then hold a grudge for a long time. Or just be hurt for a long time. Or you might have someone who's more conflict comfortable and says, I'm going anyway. I went to the funeral anyway. And maybe there ends up being some sort of melee that we don't want to have happen. So there are many different ways that it's handled, but the high conflict brain makes itself very obvious when you see those kinds of extreme behaviors. And it very much follows that pattern of the automatic first thought is blame, and then it's all or nothing, usually accompanied by some upset emotions and more blame. Bill Eddy Yeah. You know, I'm going to give an example that's going through my mind as we're talking, and that is a woman I was working with recently who was a victim-survivor of domestic violence, in an abusive relationship, just kind of fresh out of the relationship and being fearful—which is wise, because when you end a relationship with someone who's violent, that's maybe the most dangerous time, because there's a total loss of control for them. And one of the things I was discussing with her was giving yourself an encouraging statement to help you stay strong and keep going. And I said something like, you don't deserve this, you don't deserve this behavior. And she said, well, actually I do, because I made a mistake. Megan Hunter Oh, wow. Bill Eddy And the mistake was, I shouldn't have chosen this person, but since I did, it's kind of like I have to accept the whole person and accept everything they do. Well, no, you don't. I mean, you can accept them as a person who exists, but not someone you want to be in a relationship with. And that's the thing—she said, because it was my mistake, I really don't feel I can say I don't deserve this. And to me, it was hugely informative, because I think that's what many people go through who are bullied, who are victims of domestic violence, workplace abuse, et cetera—they do the natural human thing of going, what can I do different? What's my part in this problem? But they stop there and they take on too much. It's important not to take on what's other people's behavior. With high conflict people, that's almost always part of the problem. So helping her see that she can say, it's not my fault this is happening to me—I shouldn't be treated this way. That helped her. And there was another piece we added, and she said, I'm allowed to make mistakes. Megan Hunter Good. Oh, nice. Bill Eddy That became encouraging: I'm allowed to make mistakes. I don't deserve to be physically abused. The fine line between—it's not zero my fault. There's always some piece in here that I should take responsibility for. I chose this relationship or something. Megan Hunter Or I overreacted, or I said something I shouldn't have. You hear that a lot in conflict—overreacting. Bill Eddy And it may be true that the person shouldn't have said something back that they said, but it's not their fault that they're getting this abuse. And that's the thing—it's like, what's mine is mine and yours is yours, and we need to be clearer on that. And then set limits on what's theirs, because they're not setting limits on themselves. Megan Hunter And it really is—when you're giving yourself encouraging statements, you're changing your brain. It's the path to becoming mature, ultimately. Right? These are hard relationships. These are the most difficult relationships. So they're going to sometimes require some difficult decisions. The techniques themselves are not difficult, as we know, but it's the decisions—and allowing yourself to say, I don't deserve to be treated this way, or I don't deserve to be physically abused. Those are very powerful things, but they can be quite scary to enter into. So it's about making a decision, and the rest will follow. So let's kind of transition now into setting limits and the backlash that can come from that. Because we talk a lot about your book, SLIC Solutions—Setting Limits and Imposing Consequences in Conflict. And listen, I'm using this all the time in my own life. I teach it to our clients probably every day, and it's very exciting to see them come back and say, I did it—and they feel so empowered. But I think what I try to remember to also explain to people is, look, there may be backlash. The high conflict brain is used to people walking on eggshells around them, right? And they're doing all the limit setting themselves because they have the big emotions. So now when you set a limit on someone—even if you do it with an EAR statement attached, or you've done it in a kind and gentle, firm way—they're not going to get their way, and they want to get their way. They're used to getting their way. So there can be some big backlash. The point of this, Bill, is being prepared for that, number one—just knowing that it's a possibility. And then going through the hard feelings, because these can be very crunchy times. When you do finally set that limit, then you get the self-doubt in your own mind when they start pushing back a little bit, or they react strongly, start calling you names, your phone starts blowing up, things like that. You start getting blamed. And now that really bad feeling starts again—like, I should have never set the limit. I should have never said anything. Is this me? Am I the problem? Other people are telling me it takes two to tango, so I must be a big part of the problem. So let's talk about that. Why do high conflict people—HCPs—often escalate when you do set a limit or impose a consequence? Bill Eddy In many ways, HCPs see themselves as superior, and that's kind of a narcissistic trait. But in general, that "I'm right and you're wrong" is part of their philosophy. And so if you're setting a limit on them, you're implying, no, I'm right and you're wrong. And even if you're not meaning to put it that way—you're just saying, I need you to stop—they interpret it as a put down. And they have a lot of underlying fears that they're not even conscious of. So like with narcissists, they're very, very concerned about being looked down on, because they think that's what they should be doing. Megan Hunter Right. They can't tolerate it. I mean, I just recently had a client who had tried to have a conversation with the HCP in his life about setting ground rules for their conversations. And he'd come up with a few. And of course this completely went down the drain, because the high conflict person couldn't tolerate someone else's ideas setting the ground rules. They all had to be her ground rules. That's the only way it would work. So then when I mentioned setting limits to this person, they said, well, what happens is she's the one always putting the limits on me. She says, well, that's not gonna work for me—and hangs up the phone. Bill Eddy Yeah. It's amazing because you're absolutely right, Megan—high conflict people are really good at setting limits. They don't like other people setting limits. That's the problem. Now I want to refer to the SLIC Solutions book—we have five things to consider when you're thinking of setting limits and imposing consequences. Let me just kind of go back to them. The first is: is my consequence proportional to the limit that I've set? And so if you think about this, even in advance, before you set the limits—is this proportional? And you say, well, yeah, it is. They shouldn't treat me this way. And so it's appropriate for me to set some kind of limit. Let's say there's a conversation and the other person is being really rude and doing high conflict stuff. And so in your mind you're going, I don't feel comfortable at all with this—but should I interrupt him? We generally feel in the modern world that we shouldn't interrupt people, that you're being offensive if you do that. And so you feel like, should I interrupt this person? And yet I don't like this conversation—I want to leave this conversation. So if you think, is it proportional to say, if you keep talking that way, I'm going to leave the conversation? Yes, it is. It's appropriate. And one thing people don't realize is you can interrupt a high conflict person's high conflict behavior. It's ethically okay, because it's not good for you, and it's actually not good for them to reinforce the habit of being rude, obnoxious, yelling inappropriately—all of that. Megan Hunter Are we helping to train their brain, or at least train the relationship pattern between you and this person? In other words, are they going to learn from this? If I say, look, I'm not going to be a part of this conversation—look, I'm going to stop you right there, I'm going to leave now—do they learn from that? Do they get respect for you from that? Bill Eddy And the reality is if you repeat that, and it happens like two or three times, a lot of them start to get it. It's like, oops—I'm not gonna go there, because I know they're gonna walk away. Megan Hunter At least they're not going to try that again with you, because you set the limit. Bill Eddy They may try it with someone else because they like doing that. Maybe it makes them feel— Megan Hunter They haven't—we haven't changed their personality. But we are saying, I have a seat at this table. I have a right in this relationship, in this conversation, and here's what I'm doing. And that's it. It can be as simple as that. Bill Eddy It's like you can't control their behavior, but you can control yours. So you can say, if you keep behaving this way, I'm going to leave the conversation—because that part I have control over. Megan Hunter Yep. So I think back to getting through the hard feelings—the kind of scary sometimes feelings that come with setting limits. And sometimes it's not just an in-the-moment occurrence. Maybe it's a bigger event. Let's say you tell a business partner that you're leaving the partnership. You tell a roommate that you need them to move out—something like that. It's going to be tricky for a while, right? Because they're going to be upset for a while. And let's say you have the law on your side—everything is stacked up in your favor—but it's still uncomfortable. So you have to grow used to accepting those uncomfortable feelings, just to expect them to come, because this isn't a normal situation. It's going to feel uncomfortable, and that's okay. Just tell yourself, it's okay. When I feel this way, I can override it either by giving myself an encouraging statement, ask a friend—am I crazy here?—or just remind yourself who you are. I'm leaning into what is right and true. Right? Have I done anything wrong here? Well, maybe I handled this one thing wrong. I already apologized for it. Done with it. But yeah, this feels uncomfortable. I'm gonna have to ride it through to the end, even if it takes six months. And a lot of times, if it's a court case, it can take months—it can take years. But it's okay to feel uncomfortable. You're not gonna feel uncomfortable forever. Maybe it's 90 seconds. Allow yourself to breathe through it, and remind yourself, this isn't about me. This is an uncomfortable situation, but I'll get through it. It's fine. And then that's kind of like having exposure therapy—then the next time it's a little better, and the next time it's a little better. And each time you think about it, you're no longer dreading it—you have the power over your own feelings about it. Bill Eddy Right. Now, one cautionary note with this, because I agree with you 95% of the time. But there's that small percent—domestic violence again—where the person's feeling that it's not safe is something you need to pay attention to. And so the thing to do is go get help and not confront the situation alone. And that's number five in our list: I need help in imposing my consequence. And number three is: is the consequence safe? So when you think about that situation, your feelings may be something to pay attention to. But I agree that 95% of the time, don't let yourself be afraid to set the limit, because you will succeed. And you just need to get comfortable with, hey, I can do that. And the reality is when you're dealing with reasonable people, reasonable people will listen to you, and even if they don't like your limit, they're not going to fight you about it. So you may be dealing with a high conflict person if they don't accept your limit setting. And that's where maybe you get help—maybe you need to get the police, or you need to get a lawyer, or you need to get a relative to support you in setting a limit. The tricky thing about feelings is to think about your feelings as well. Don't let your feelings drive the bus, but also don't let your thoughts drive the bus alone. It's a combination of our feelings and our thoughts. And sometimes we have to override the feelings, especially with high conflict people. So 95% of what you said, I think, really goes for most situations. Megan Hunter Yeah. That's an important distinction there. I'm glad you brought that in. So I think some key takeaways: we can ride through the uncomfortable feelings for the most part. If we can't, we can talk to someone. We always want to stay safe. And remind yourself, it's a reality test—remind yourself this isn't my fault, even though I'm being blamed for this. Bill Eddy One more thought to squeeze in here is role-play practice with somebody, because that will help your worried emotions calm down. You go, I can do this now. And so many clients for both of us say that after we've role-played it—they say, I feel much more confident now doing that. Megan Hunter Yeah. It's just like practicing for a sport. You have to practice at least once or twice shooting the ball into the hoop. Otherwise, how do you know to do it in the moment, in the game? Well, thank you, Bill, and thank you, listeners, as usual for tuning in and listening to us. We definitely appreciate it. We'll put some links in to our upcoming classes and trainings in the show notes, and Bill's book SLIC Solutions, and lots of other things. If you are wanting to go deeper into managing high conflict behavior in the workplace or for an organization, we have lots of training for that—lots of custom trainings for any organization. If you're interested in high conflict in your personal life, go to ConflictInfluencer.com. So keep learning and practicing skills. Be kind to yourself and to others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing peace. It's All Your Fault is a production of TruStory FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes, and transcripts at TruStory.fm or HighConflictInstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.