Latest / Thrive A/F (After Forty) / Lever 4: Sleep - The Not-So-Hidden Secret to Longevity | Thrive A/F Ep. 5

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Lever 4: Sleep - The Not-So-Hidden Secret to Longevity | Thrive A/F Ep. 5 · Thrive A/F (After Forty)

• Keith: All right, welcome. We are here. We made it. Episode five, Thrive AF, Thrive After 40. I am one of the hosts, Keith, and I am here with my good friend, Lou Fratto. Lou, say hello to the Thrive Nation. Lou Fratto: Thrive nation. All right. Keith: That's the name, official name of our audience, debuting in this episode, Thrive Nation. Lou Fratto: It's turned into a nation. That's awesome. ⁓ all all 20 of our family and friends. No, hey guys. I'm Lou. Yes. Hey, ⁓ five, five in a row now we've survived. Keith: Yeah. Hey now, hey now. The growing thrive nation. That's right. That's right. Going strong. It's a machine. Unstoppable. Lou Fratto: Well wait, not only s not only survived, we've thrived in five of these. Keith: Exactly. Now you're getting it. Now you're getting it. ⁓ yeah, so we got a big episode today. We're gonna talk about one of the levers from your book, Thrive, a physical therapist guide to longevity, which is the full title. I memorized it. which is gonna be a good conversation. But before we get to that, it is kind of a special day, and I wanted to recognize the fact that yesterday was your birthday. So happy birthday, Lou. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Hey, all right, thank you. Keith: Sorry, I couldn't be there to celebrate with you. But ⁓ how old are you? Lou Fratto: Fifty seven now, so w one more time around the sun. Keith: There you go. Nice. Did you have a good birthday weekend? Lou Fratto: ⁓ yeah, yeah, it was really good. The ⁓ my my daughter and my wife give me ⁓ free reign of the television on my birthday weekend. So I was able to watch some stuff that they typically would probably have, you know, ⁓ kiboshed. So we watched ⁓ yeah, so in in honor of our whole thriving as we age, we watched ⁓ Alfred Hitchcock movie, ⁓ The Rear Window. Keith: What an honor. ⁓ I love that movie. Lou Fratto: Yeah, such a good movie. And when you think that it was actually it was in the 50s, right? So how many years ago? That's like 70 years ago. This movie and and just how cutting edge it must have been for that time frame, you know, the things that they did with the camera and all that stuff was really cool. Keith: Classic. Yeah. Fantastic film. Good one. Well, good. I'm glad you had a good weekend. So before we jump into the episode though, I have a birthday gift for you. And it is not a physical gift since we're not in the same location, but the best I can do, but I think you'll enjoy it. So it comes in the form of a story that I want to tell. And it is a recent story, not one from our past. ⁓ Lou Fratto: Yeah, I was really ⁓ huh. Keith: But one of the things that we have been talking about, the reason why we started this podcast and the Substack is because we want to hear from audience members and we want to help people make changes and make positive changes in their lives. So I have a friend, his name's Brian Markowitz. So shout out Brian. He is a regular listener, ⁓ listener to the podcast. So he's ⁓ he is a OG member now of Thrive Nation. we hang out together, his his wife, ⁓ Lou Fratto: All right. Nice. Keith: And ⁓ we are members at the same pool, so we're often together. And he told me that he's been listening to the podcast. And this past week he told me while we were hanging out at the pool that he was talking with his adult son, who is a upcoming mover and shaker living in Washington, DC. So he's a young adult making his way in the world today. And his name's Jeffrey, so shout out to Jeffrey. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. All right. Hi Jeffrey. If you're watching. Keith: And yeah, maybe he will when he finds out we're talking about. ⁓ so yeah, Brian said he was talking to him and Jeffrey was kind of hanging out on the couch and finding it hard to get motivated. He said, Yeah, I want to go to the gym, but I'm feeling kind of tired. And Brian said that he said to Jeffrey, you know, on Keith's podcast, they said that you never regret getting up and going to the gym. You never feel worse after working out. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Keith: And those words came from your mouth in one of our episodes. And Jeffrey said, you know what, Dad, you're right. And he got up off the couch and I'm told he actually went to the gym and worked out. So Lou Fratto: Nice. ⁓ man, that's awesome. Keith: Yeah. So my gift to you is to let you know that the the things that you're doing and that we're doing here are making an impact. And you know, those words that wisdom came from you into this medium, into the ears of one of our listeners who then transmitted it to his son who took action. And ⁓ we're all about taking action. So that's my birthday present to you. Letting you know you're doing you're doing good work, man. This is this is this means something. Lou Fratto: Hey that Keith: So Lou Fratto: You too, man. This would not have happened without you. The there's a we've said this before. There's a lot of people who talk about doing podcasts and they have no clue how to start or what. And that was me too. And you but but kudos to you for figuring all this stuff out, especially all the technical stuff and the the editing and and then putting in all the hours that it takes to to do this. I mean, it is not easy. It's a lot of work to put something this incredibly professional out there, you know. And so Keith: Same. Yeah. Yeah. Lou Fratto: I mean, I say that kind of jokingly, but it is, you know, it we are it is coming across as way more professional than I ever thought I could have ever mustered up without you. So ⁓ thank you for that. And thank you, Jeffrey, for getting up and and working out this morning. And and then thank you for the feedback. ⁓ and I have to say, and ⁓ if ⁓ Jeffrey hears this, look, I had to drag myself to jujitsu this morning. It was at seven o'clock. Keith: Yeah. Lou Fratto: And in all fairness and honesty, I did not get a good night's sleep last night. And this podcast is on sleep. I literally have been up since 2 30, right? So ⁓ I'm here to say that I struggle with this stuff too. And and I didn't want to go. And I was feeling a little stressed about, ⁓ my gosh, my my brain isn't gonna be working for the podcast. I really should stay home and study this stuff and make sure I can articulate in front of the camera. And ⁓ and I said, no, you know what? Keith: Perfect. Lou Fratto: ⁓ I've gotta practice what I preach. W going to jujitsu and working out will make me feel better and I'll actually ⁓ you know, benefit from it. And so I d literally dragged myself there and ⁓ left left there feeling so much better than when I went in and so glad that I went. So ⁓ I struggle with it often, you know. So yeah. Keith: Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, you gotta fight through it. So hopefully he'll he'll take that advice from his dad and from you and carry that forward and you know it'll come become part of his ⁓ become part of his thinking going forward. So all right. Okay, so now we're gonna get into the actual meat of the episode and start talking about sleep and the sleep lever. And ⁓ before we get into it, ⁓ I know I keep interrupting here, but I did wanna say that when we first talked about doing this episode, I was kind of dreading it. Lou Fratto: Yeah, awesome. Yeah, perfect. Keith: Because I felt like I really didn't have much to add. And that's because I didn't really think about sleep or have a really have a strategy for, you know, I just thought it was something that you do. And the thing that changed it for me, and now I'm really looking forward to this conversation, is one, I read your book. ⁓ two, you sent me a podcast about the topic that I was able to listen to. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Keith: I went on a camping trip and I had about an hour and a half there and back in the car. And I listened to that podcast and I had a chance to really think about it. And then that podcast was the Brian Kane mental performance mastery podcast from March 22nd. Very, very good conversation, kind of nerdy, ⁓ but also just really interesting. And then I came back and I reread this chapter, Sleep from your book, and it was like light bulbs kind of went off for me on. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Keith: On certain things that we're going to talk about today. So I think that is also a good representation of the way that what we're doing hopefully can can start reaching people and maybe change people's minds about the way they think about some of these topics. Cause it happened to me just recently in this one. And now I'm really excited to talk about it. So with all that build up, ⁓ Lou, drop the science. Talk about it. Lou Fratto: Yeah. So I kind of ⁓ let the cat out of the bag already and said, well, it's about sleep. ⁓ and it is it is a lever in the book and ⁓ it is extremely important. And it's something that again, I need to be totally honest with I've struggled with for a l a lot of years and trying to get it right. and as I said before, y you could argue that any one of these levers are ⁓ anything any one of these things that we're gonna be talking about over these podcasts and that we've already talked about is the most important. ⁓ and Matthew Walker, who wrote the book ⁓ Why We Sleep, I'm confident would argue that sleep is the most important lever or the most important aspect of your overall health and longevity. So it's just a really important topic and it's something that, you know, we It's it's a struggle to get it right, but we oughta at least be working towards it, you know. Keith: Yeah, no, for sure. And it seems like I mean, I don't know the last person I talked to that said, no, I sleep fine. I sleep well. I sleep great every night. It seems like it is chronically widespread that's something that we all struggle with, which is ⁓ interesting when you think about the fact that we don't I mean, at least for myself, I didn't really think about it as ⁓ something that you could actually strategize over. You know, there's lots of books and there's podcasts about falling asleep and there's gimmicks and there's gadgets, there's techniques. But you know, to me, it was kind of some of the topics that you talked about in the book that really, like I said, turned that light bulb on and got me thinking about it kind of differently. So what what ⁓ I guess what are some of the things that I if you have chronic sleep deprivation, what is it doing to your body and your mind and your overall life experience? Lou Fratto: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yeah, right. So that's a that's one of the reasons why it's really important is if you are chronic, ⁓ chronically sleep deprived, then you're more apt to get obesity or or have obesity, you're more more apt to get diabetes, cardiovascular problems, depression, your immune system gets weakened, and also a basically a reduced lifespan, you know. So if you look at it that way. ⁓ you want to get it as right as possible so that you can avoid all those things. But then then there's a lot of positive things that occur while you're asleep that ⁓ that largely occur while you're asleep ⁓ and not while you're awake. So you have to get the the good sleep, the quantity and the quality of sleep in order for these processes to take place. And so that's the other side of the coin as well. Do you want me to talk about those or? Keith: So, well, talk about how the the thing that really changed for me was think the mind shift between passive and active. ⁓ so can you talk a little bit about what that means or you know how people should think about sleep in general and shifting the mindset from this is just something that happens to something I can actually control, not control, but have a strategy for. Lou Fratto: Yeah. So you you and I when we were talking, I think last week, you you said it perfectly. You said, you know, wow, it to b light bulb one of the light bulbs that went off for you was that sleep is an active process. It's not a passive thing. And it is so true. And like I like said, there's a lot of important biological processing that occurs. largely while you're asleep. And it takes eight hours for all this stuff to really occur. So if you don't get, you know, the quality and then the quantity of the eight hours of sleep, these processes, I guess that's the word, can't can't take place, you know? So for instance, your hormones get regulated, your memories get integrated, your skills get assimilated, your ⁓ the physical damage gets repaired, injuries get help to get repair regeneration. occurs. I mean, there's just a ton of stuff that that goes on while you're asleep. ⁓ and and then your immune system gets kind of re reprogrammed as well. So all this stuff has to take place ⁓ for you to have, you know, for you to perform the next day and then also for you to have ⁓ you know, health and wellness and then longevity as well. Keith: Yeah. Yeah. And I think like the way people typically think about training and physical training and and you know, being trying to do things that keep you healthy. We think about what we do during the day quite a bit. ⁓ you know, am I what am I gonna do for exercise? How am I gonna keep myself physically fit? But again, for me it was like I just it it almost like opened up another eight to twelve hour window that I now look at to say that. is actually an active part of training and why it makes sense to prioritize it are all those processes that you're talking about that are happening overnight. And like that this one of the studies that they mentioned in that podcast about the way people process information and the impact that it has on learning ⁓ overnight was a complete eye opener to me. So I don't know if you remember that the details of that specific study, but I found it I found that Lou Fratto: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ well, just basically in general, you know, that's why the ⁓ quality of your sleep matters as well. So, you know, when you're ⁓ in deep sleep is when you're Keith: One was really interesting if you can recall it. Lou Fratto: your hormones get regulated, you know, so your brain and your body looks at, okay, do we need to increase this and decrease that and try to balance everything out. But in your REM sleep is where your memory gets consolidated. So you basically ⁓ go over your things that you're, you know, either studying or things that happened to you during the day before. And your mind and nervous system decides what you're going to keep and what's worth keeping and what's not worth keeping. And so you you need that stage of sleep to basically ⁓ assimilate your memories, you know, and skills that you're learning too, by the way, physical skills get assimilated while you're asleep. So it's really amazing when you start thinking about all that stuff. So I'll have people in the clinic and you know, physical therapy, one of the reasons why physical therapy is an art as well as a science and why it takes a lot of years to kind of really get a good grasp of it for a new physical therapist. Keith: Yeah. Right. Lou Fratto: is it's about movement. You know, you have to be able to spot somebody who's not moving correctly and then teach them how to move correctly. So when people are trying to learn new movement skills in here, and we'll practice, practice, practice, I'll tell them when you come back after a night's sleep, it's you know, you're gonna be better. And it's always the case. You know, they need that night's sleep to process it. But it's a it's really cool. Keith: Yeah, and I think, yeah, it is. Like, and when they mentioned that that study that they did in the the podcast that you recommended to me, I think if I remember correctly, it was they taught somebody for an hour how to do a skill and then they asked them to come back and and they tested them. They asked them to come back in eight hours, tested them again, they did worse. They let them take a night and sleep and come back and test the next morning, and they tested better because they had kind of internalized it overnight. And then they did a variation where they introduced a nap in the middle of the day and said, you know, we're going to teach this skill, give you a test, ⁓ take a nap and come back and they tested them right away. And they scored better than on the like the the group that didn't take that nap. So like even an hour nap was enough time for them to kind of absorb what they had learned to some degree, and it improved the test scores of the people that had had had just that little bit of sleep. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Keith: in between the the time they ⁓ learned it and the time they were tested. So I was like, that that's crazy. Lou Fratto: I know it's amazing. And then the ⁓ remember the part where he was talking about the MMA fighters? And these are guys that are like cramming all these skills at the last minute before an upcoming fight. And they would learn a skill in the morning, go home, take a nap, and then they would Keith: Yeah. Lou Fratto: They found out if they did that and then come back, they already had mastered the skill better than if they didn't take the nap in between. So it's just crazy, amazing, you know. Makes you question all the all nighters that we pulled in college, you know, with no sleep. Keith: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. The absolute like opposite of e of how you're supposed to, you know, absorb information. But sometimes you do what you got to do. ⁓ yeah, I have a small, like a small personal example of last week my son, my older son is in a dance group and they had a showcase this weekend. And so they were doing nightly practices to, you know, do that final cramming. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Keith: And he came home one night and was kind of frustrated because he said there's, you know, we're not getting it. We're not getting it. And I had listened to all this stuff and read your book and I said, you know what? Sleep on it. I bet tomorrow it'll be, you know, you'll you'll go back. And and sure enough, he said the next night he came home for practice. And I was like, Did you get it? And he's like, Yeah, we nailed it. Like we're gonna crush it. And they did. So it was like, it's like a little thing, you know. Again, like it just kinda just has changed the way that I think about the value of of really trying to Lou Fratto: That's awesome. Keith: ⁓ think about sleep and be a lot more a a lot more strategic ⁓ about how how we approach it so ⁓ so sleep hygiene i hygiene i guess is ⁓ one of the main things major things we wanted to talk about so ⁓ do you want to go through some of the things that fall into that sleep hygiene category that maybe people can take and start to think about and use Lou Fratto: Yeah. So, you know, given that it's so important to get a good night's sleep, it's like, okay, how do you how do you do that? Right. Well, they've done, you know, a bunch of research and they've come up with the things that if you do will give you the best chance. I mean, again, it's a we're all a work in progress, but and then yeah, and they call it sleep hygiene. So Keith: Right. Lou Fratto: One of the things that they'll they say about that is, and this comes from this word comes from Brian Johnson. He calls it ⁓ digital sunset. So basically one to two hours before you go to bed, ⁓ turn off all electronic devices like your phones, your computers, laptops, ⁓ I mean ⁓ iPads, ⁓ even your TVs, and then so a lot of the light lighting that we have in the houses now because it emits blue light. And so blue light. Think if you think of your mind and your nervous system as a snow globe, it kind of stirs up that snow globe, right? And then if you turn that stuff off an hour or two before you go to bed, it ⁓ allows the snow globe to settle and give you a better chance of of falling asleep. Then you want to be consistent too, you know, be ⁓ go to bed at try to go to bed around the same time because we're creatures of habit. And then your brain will start to realize, okay, this is the time I need to, you know, go to bed and go to sleep. Keith: Mm-hmm. Lou Fratto: And then you want to ⁓ also ⁓ try to have your room cool and dark. And the research says in the 60s is the best, you know, 60 degrees. I know that's like really cold for a lot of people and probably way too expensive, but but cool and dark. And and you want it you want it dark, but but then I have to intervene and say, as a physical therapist, not so dark that you're gonna fall and trip, you know, when you're going to your go going to the bathroom or whatever. So don't make it too Keith: Yeah. Yeah, we forgot our disclaimer. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, exactly. We should say this is this is not medical advice. It's only meant for educational entertainment, hopefully entertainment purposes. ⁓ and then no no food, also three hours or so before you go to bed because you don't want your body sitting there churning and burning while you're trying to sleep. And then caffeine, try to try to, you know, stop that by 3 p.m. For me, that's noon because I'm pretty sensitive to it. ⁓ so you know, and then Keith: Not medical advice. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, about the same. Lou Fratto: Yeah. And then a comfortable mattress makes a big difference too, you know. Keith: Yeah, but we screwed up on the mattress front. We got a new one a while back and ⁓ just not happy with it. But we also were too lazy to take advantage of the return policy. So we're kind of stuck with it. But I'm with I think my wife, ⁓ she she did all the research and she does a great job, but she was really prioritizing ⁓ having a cooling sort of mattress and picked a brand that has just kind of disappointed us. So I won't mention it here, but Lou Fratto: ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And some of those matches, you're right, though. They're hot. And that, you know, it's because of what they're constructed with. And it's just it's amazingly warm when you lay up against the the sheets on those matches. But something I forgot to say, and something we've kind of been talking about is you need to the f I think the first and foremost thing of getting a good night's sleep is prioritizing a good night's sleep. And that, and we can kind of tie that into our little Keith: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yes. Lou Fratto: Topics sometimes that we talk about with ⁓ synergies between levers, because that's basically mindset. So if you have the right mindset towards sleep, you're likely to get a better night's sleep. ⁓ but for years I wore getting four and five hours sleep, like some kind of strange, weird badge of honor. Like, ⁓ I can outwork everybody and I'm gonna do all this work before anybody else gets up. And, you know, for probably 25 years I did that. And ⁓ Keith: Right. Mm-hmm. Lou Fratto: I mean, got you know, because I didn't know what I didn't know. And I'm convinced that every night that I did that, I put a new gray hair popped up. So I probably would have nice dark hair here had I not done that. So I'm paying the price. So don't be like me. Keith: I must have missed a lot of sleep. Yeah, we all are, brother. No, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's tough though. At different times in your life, there's sometimes when you have to make sacrifices. And that kind of goes to that 80 20 rule. They even talked about it, you know. Like if even if you're trying to get the consistent bedtime seven days a week, ⁓ if you shoot for that eighty percent, ⁓ that's really ⁓ a good target because you don't want to get down on yourself. And I think sleep is one of those things the more you fret about it, the more you worry about it, it's makes it harder and harder. So it's kind of a challenge. You know, you want to prioritize it. You wanna ⁓ give yourself the best shot, but you also gotta be realistic that life is life. And sometimes, you know, stages of your life, you might have to have a schedule that gets you up at five o'clock in the morning consistently because that's what life dictates. But you know, I think the other thing that ⁓ you had told me previously is that thinking about sleep as the kind of the start of the next day. not the end of the current day was a nice little mind shift as well. ⁓ because really what you're doing is giving your body a chance to rejuvenate and recharge and do all the things it needs to do so that you're gonna be ready to go the next day. So just another kind of small thing to think about. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was a that really hit home for me. It was like, ⁓ okay, it's actually the start of the next day and it made me really, really wanna prioritize it by thinking that one for sure. Keith: Yeah, no, I agree. ⁓ there was another piece of advice that ⁓ came from the discussion we had, or that some or that I listened to was, and this has kind of changed things for me, is that some people have trouble falling asleep, other people have a problem of waking up a lot during the night and kind of getting the mind going. And for me, where I was losing some sleep was I would wake up in the morning. Say my alarm was set for six, I'd wake up at five or five thirty and just decide to get out of bed because my alarm's gonna go off in an hour or 30 minutes. And one of the things that they talked about on that podcast was to maybe, and I'm I've been trying this out, is to not give in to that urge and just try and meditate or do deep breathing because there's benefits to just being in bed for. those seven and a half to eight hours, even if you're not actively sleeping, if you can try and calm your mind and do some exercises, that you actually get some of the same benefits of being asleep. So that's something that I've started to do. And it's a very small sample set, but I've actually, I don't know if it's because I'm feeling better about my sleep, because of the idea of of being taking an active role or if it's some of these things I'm doing, but of actually noticing that my recovery scores on my fitness tracker. has seemed to be getting a little bit better and a little bit higher and more consistently. So ⁓ and it's not yeah, it's been it's ⁓ you know, it like I said, small sample size, not a long time domain. And we've been very active because our little town here is doing a ⁓ really good job with the World Cup and having concerts almost every night. So last week we went and saw three concerts on weekdays. They're only from like seven to eight thirty, but still that's not like normal. Lou Fratto: Wow, that's cool. Yeah. Right. Keith: And I was able to get pretty dag ⁓ good sleep and recovery score. So I think it's I think it's making a difference. Like this has been a really good like for for and for some of our listeners, ⁓ maybe you're in this position as well where you haven't thought about this topic very deeply. ⁓ and hopefully this will maybe get some people to think a little bit more about how they approach this. And like for me, it's I was kind of a blank slate coming into it because I hadn't thought about it that much. And I'm really Lou Fratto: That's great. Keith: digging into it and really liking ⁓ what I'm hearing and what I'm what I'm seeing with the really results. So Lou Fratto: Yeah, that's awesome. That's good to hear. Yeah, I ⁓ I'm kind of like the opposite ⁓ with that. I was I ⁓ have been, you know, focused on sleep now for of s several years and and I can I can have the opposite effect. That can have the opposite effect on me. So if I wake up in the middle of the night, which I always do, two or th two or three o'clock, my mind is ready to go. You know, it feels like it's totally refreshed. And that I could just get up and and be fine. But I know better because if I get up, then I'm dead the next day when the day rolls around. ⁓ so I have to quiet it down. But one of the things that used to happen was I would ⁓ stress out about it and kind of catastrophize because I would look at the I'd look at my clock and say, ⁓ man, I only have two hours left before I gotta get up. I gotta get back to sleep. And that would just keep me more awake. And so ⁓ and I have to give a shout out to my buddy Cliff. Keith: Yeah. Lou Fratto: Because I was talking to him one day a couple of years ago, and he said, you know what? I wake up every night too, around two or three. And he goes, I don't fight it. He goes, I just now what he does is he gets up and he putzes around the house a little bit and then he it calms, kind of calms him down, gets him out of the mind ⁓ racing. And then he just goes back to, you know, he calms down and goes back to bed and steals another two hours before he gets up. So I started thinking, okay, well, maybe. Keith: Wow. Lou Fratto: Maybe that's just my rhythm, you know, that's my circadian rhythms. Let me just go with it. So when I wake up now, I don't get up like he does. But what I what I figured out that's working for me is I read a book basically with an amber book light. So I bought this amber book light, it was like 12 bucks on Amazon, so that it's not blue light. And and I just lay there and I read a few pages, maybe a chapter. Keith: Mm-hmm. Lou Fratto: And the book is good, but it's not so good that I don't want to put it down, you know? So it's and then ⁓ that gets me out of my ⁓ sort of ⁓ pattern, you know, racing in my mind. And then I meditate and it allows me to go back to sleep. So I can usually get back to sleep in about forty five minutes. So which is way better than it used to be. Keith: Yeah. Yeah. Pretty good. Yeah. But that that's you know, shifting from that passive to an active mindset around it is what you've done. Try to find like a strategy that can get you back to sleep, try different things. I know my wife has some trouble waking up and she found a podcast that is literally just boring lectures about like biology and things that would put you to sleep if you were in college. And she's like, Yeah, I put it on. Lou Fratto: Yeah. There you go. Keith: Actually works pretty well. And you never know, I might learn something about planetary bodies and rotations while I'm sleeping. Lou Fratto: Our apologies to all the biology teachers out there. Sorry. Keith: Yeah, that was just an example. I love biology. Math is a different story. Lou Fratto: Yeah, exactly. We have a story about that, you and I. Keith: Yeah, we do. Yeah, that'll be that'll be in the mailbag episode. so you mentioned circadian rhythm. Is there anything else you want to talk about that? I mean, I think most people kind of understand what that is, but anything in deeper that you want to go? Lou Fratto: We'll save that one for a different time. Yeah. No, no, that's pretty much beyond the scope, I think, of this podcast. But basically that that's where going to bed ⁓ at a similar time and trying to wake up at a similar time every day. ⁓ and also the timing of your meals plays into it. And so you're 'cause your body works on a rhythm, you know, and you just want to try to stay in that rhythm and not go out of it, you know. So that's all I want to say about that really. Keith: Yeah. Okay. And I think something I heard or either read in the book, I can't remember, was that that's different for everybody. And it's not just day and night. I mean, you finding out what your rhythm is is part of kind of strategizing and trying to figure out, you know, what should my hours be? And then how can I get it within that seven and a half to eight hour window or whatever that that might be. So it could be different for different people. ⁓ do you want to go deeper at all into specific sleep stages? Lou Fratto: Yeah, right. Keith: like REM stage, why that's important and and kind of what it is. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Well, so the REM stage is is where your memories ⁓ and your skills get assimilated. So basically re ⁓ REM stage you could think of it as the software update. You know, so your brain is going through a ⁓ a reboot, if you will, to help you remember stuff and categorize stuff and learn skills. And then the deep sleep is where your body is repaired. So ⁓ I think kind of talked about a little bit earlier, you know, your hormones are all balanced out and your regeneration and tissue repair occur in the deep sleep. So that's why, you know, you want to get good quality sleep as well. So you want to hit those those two two stages. Otherwise you're not, you know, you're not optimizing your repair and your, you know, learning and mental mental ⁓ performance. Keith: Gotcha. And then the seven to eight hours or seven to nine hours is pretty much the standard of what people should shoot for when you think about that eighty twenty rule, I guess. Okay. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Yeah, so you yeah, and then so you have to do the math, right? So if you're gonna if you're shooting for seven hours, that doesn't mean that you're in your bed seven hours because we you know, the average person, they're they're asleep 80% of the time that they're in the bed. So you have to then be in bed a little bit longer than seven hours, figuring that part of that time you're gonna be awake. So that it equates back to the eight hours. Does that make sense? Keith: Yeah, yeah, I think I think that makes sense. ⁓ okay, cool. ⁓ I don't know how like comfortable you are talking about a topic like HRV, ⁓ but I know it's something that has I've started to pay a little bit more attention to because it's one of the things a fitness tracker tracks. But what's your comfort level in in talking about ⁓ that topic because I know it's something they went deep in on on that that reference podcast we talked about, but I don't know if you did deep research on it. Lou Fratto: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, I've been I've kind of been playing around with tracking my HRV for a long time. So it stands for your heart rate variability. And it was actually ⁓ invented by the Soviets, and they were basically ⁓ using it ⁓ when they were training their cosmonauts to go up in space. So I give them huge credit for inventing this, but Keith: So what is HRV? Lou Fratto: But basically, you know, you have two parts of your autonomic nervous system. And your autonomic nervous system is the nervous system that works behind the scenes. You know, it makes your heart beat, it makes you breathe, it makes you blink, that kind of stuff. You don't really have to think about it. So the first part is called the sympathetic ⁓ nervous system. And that has a nickname. And the nickname is ⁓ fight or flight. Okay. And the second part of your autonomic nervous system is your ⁓ parasympathetic system. And it has a nickname and it's rest and digest. And ideally, those two systems should be balanced, right? But most people in West the Western world, especially our country, we run around heavily dominated by our sympathetic system, you know, fight or flight. ⁓ my God, I'm in a hurry. I got all these things I gotta do. ⁓ my that guy just just Cut me off in the lane and you know, I've got all these goals and stress, stress, stress, right? And so our sympathetic system is way up high and revving heavily. And our parasympathetic system, which should be equally balancing out the sympathetic, is really low and underperforming, if you will. And so ⁓ I guess when the Russians were developing this, they really, they, they ⁓ formulated a way to put ⁓ a score to it, basically. Keith: Mm-hmm. Lou Fratto: you know, an objective score. And so the way that it works is if you take your heart rate, and let's say your heart rate is 60 beats per minute. Okay. the sympathetic system, when it's more dominant, is going to raise make your heart rate increase and be faster. And the parasympathetic system, when it's more dominant, is going to slow your heart rate. And so most of our heart rates don't beat exactly on the second. In perfect rhythm, because sometimes the sympathetic pulls a little harder and increases it, and sometimes the parasympathetic pulls a little harder and decreases it. And theoretically, then, based on the whole HRV thing, is if they're equally pulling with equal strength, then you're going to have higher variability than somebody who is more, say, sympathetic dominant, where it's just boom, boom, boom, like this. ⁓ yeah. So Keith: Okay. So a higher HRV number is actually better. Lou Fratto: Yeah, well, it's in general, yes, you want your HRV to be higher. It means you're in better balance because it means that both systems are pulling at equal strength. But ⁓ a healthy person is going to sometimes have a lower HRV because, like you said earlier, sometimes you just gotta push through some things. You know, you've got a upcoming project or Maybe you're, you know, training for some kind of physical thing and you're pushing yourself pretty hard or you're feeling good and you wanna push yourself. ⁓ so then your HRV should drop. ⁓ and then other times you're, you know, you're going through recovery and you're kind of taking it easy and your HRV should increase. But in general, yes, the higher up, the better. Yeah. Keith: Okay. And I've noticed with the fitness tracker that I'm wearing that that seems to be the main thing that it looks at when it is trying to, you know, develop a recovery score and to some degree a sleep score. So that's good to know. Like 'cause I've heard, you know, on that other podcast they talked about it in quite a bit of depth, but I it it didn't really sink in for me. I mean, I just look at it, you know, on the fitness tracker and it says, ⁓ your HR V is Lou Fratto: Yeah. Keith: This or that, and and that kind of indicates, you know, that you haven't slept well or that you did sleep well. So maybe it's good to get into it a little bit deeper. So thanks for that explanation. Lou Fratto: Yeah, no problem. Then when we talk about the the technology lever as well, we'll get we can get more into it. But one of the things that's important too is those those trackers, they just work off of algorithms. And so you look at trends more than just single data points, you know. and if you're trending in the right way, hey, you're doing stu something right. If you're trending in the wrong way, you gotta figure out, hey, what am I doing wrong here and try to correct course, you know? Keith: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You told me a story when we when we did kind of a pre-show call ⁓ about another ⁓ study I think they did that was all about telling people about how they slept actually impacted the way they felt. Do you remember that? Lou Fratto: Yeah, and I wish I would have ⁓ I wish I'd have the actual study ⁓ study in front of me 'cause I would want to give them credit. I think it was Al Ellen Langer who's the lady that did the counterclockwise study where she put the old men. Yeah. Keith: I put you on the spot. Yeah. I will find it. ⁓ I'll find it and we'll put a note and a reference to it in the show notes, but Lou Fratto: All right, cool. ⁓ I think it was her, but it was yeah, it was amazing because they took a sleep tracker and they ⁓ they modified it. So they had people sleep and then they had the tracker tell them that they slept worse than they really did. And they tested them. They they so they tested them pre prior to that, and then they tested them after being told that they slept horribly, and they scored poorly on these tests. And then Sometime after that they came back again and they tested people beforehand and then they had ⁓ sleep and they they modified the tracker to tell them that they had a great night's sleep when they really didn't. When they really didn't. So they had ⁓ biased towards a positive sleep and they tested better, you know, even though they had a poor night's sleep. So it's so it's such a mind game, you know, it's it's it's like Keith: Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, obviously there's a physical component to, you know, being tired, but I think it kind of shows that the eighty twenty rule actually makes sense because there are times when you can, you know, basically push through it. And s it's a it's a mental and it's a physical game, I guess, to play. But that's why one of the reasons why maybe it's so complicated and there's such an industry built around trying to just get have let people sleep. Lou Fratto: Yeah. Keith: Get some sleep, some good quality sleep. It's crazy. Lou Fratto: Yeah, I know. Yeah, it's like a C Ian thing now. Keith: Yeah, yeah, for sure. ⁓ all right. Well, we're we're I think at about forty minutes. That seems to be the time zone that we try to get to before we move on. But before we do, you know, is there anything that you want to talk about or that we want to talk about that ties this idea of sleep ⁓ consistency and sleep hygiene specifically as it relates to longevity? Was there anything, you know, in your book? ⁓ or you know, talking with your health heroes that makes you think about, you know, why it's important from a longevity perspective versus just a general, you know, health, fitness and happiness. Lou Fratto: Yeah, well, I think that they just know that if you're chronically sleep deprived, you know, it it just just the the health factors that we talked about that you're more susceptible to, it just shortens your life. ⁓ as back to Matthew Walker, who wrote the book Why We Sleep, ⁓ he has a quote, and ⁓ this will be probably a paraphrase, not me word for word, but it's Keith: Mm-hmm. Lou Fratto: The shorter your sleep, the shorter your life. I mean, he goes that definitive into it. Yeah. So and that's the thing is like it just, you know, it's it puts all this pressure to get get a good night's sleep and then, you know, stresses you out. So it's this whole thing of balancing and, you know, it's just, it's tough. Keith: Oof. Wow. Yeah. But but but also like again back to mind shift, like realizing that you can come up with strategies and you've you can shift from a passive to an active way to think about it, that may give you some peace of mind. And you know, your book and then I'll definitely link to this podcast because ⁓ you know, for me it was a like I said, a huge eye opener. It made me feel better. about the way that I feel about sleep. And because it is such a mind game, maybe that's just making me sleep better because I feel like I've taken a little bit of control of something that I haven't really thought about being able to to impact that much. I just thought it was what it was, you know. So Lou Fratto: ⁓ right. Yeah, you can definitely have some control over it. That the the doctor that he interviewed is Dr. ⁓ Kirk Parsley, by the way. And he he is a Navy SEAL physician. So he was a Navy SEAL and he went to medical school and and it is a really good podcast. ⁓ the guy had a really great way of explaining things and ⁓ yeah, it's a good podcast for sure. Keith: Yes. Yeah. Cool. All right. Awesome. Well, there's nothing else on sleep. We can move into the next segment of the podcast. And usually this is where we talk about synergy. ⁓ but we're gonna switch it up this week and we're gonna introduce a new section. And because now we have Thrive Nation, our our thriving, growing audience of people. So we're gonna do some shout-outs. ⁓ all right, so I'm gonna start. And these are Lou Fratto: Yeah. All right. Keith: a combination of things that w that we've heard directly from people, but some of them also are comments that people are leaving on our Substack. So I guess before we start, please if you're listening or watching ⁓ this, ⁓ checking out our content, leave us a comment. ⁓ you can do it on YouTube really easily. You can ⁓ subscribe to our Substack and put a comment there. One of the shout outs we're gonna do is is from a comment that somebody left on Substack. We would love hear from you. and you could also email me directly, Keith at thrive-af dot com and I will get your ⁓ I will get your email and comments. So ⁓ reach out and let us know. So the first shout out I want to give is to actually an old fraternity brothers of ours, Tim Crowley. You remember Tim? Yeah. Yeah. So I ⁓ Lou Fratto: Nice. Yes, absolutely. Hi Tim. Keith: Texted him about the podcast a while back and he texted me back this week and said he was all caught up. ⁓ and this is a question that he had actually or he actually pointed something out that I hadn't thought about, but he said, you know, you guys talked about nutrition, but you didn't talk about the ⁓ effect of alcohol and ⁓ really at all. So I told him that we would ⁓ we're not gonna cover that today, but maybe we'll bring that up in a future episode. So I thought that was a good point. We hadn't really talked. Lou Fratto: Very good. Keith: I told him maybe we should talk about it next time we get together and we can talk it over over a couple beers. But so thank you, Tim, for ⁓ for reaching out and let us know that you're listening and ⁓ giving us that comment. So ⁓ do you want to do the next one? Lou Fratto: Exactly. Yes. Yeah, so I want to thank ⁓ Brandon Fields. He is the founder of Old Bones Therapy. And I reached out to him just to let him know that I was that I that I realized I was wearing his knee brace ⁓ in the picture that I used for the entry ⁓ returning to ⁓ jujitsu at the age of 56. It's ⁓ it's one of the, for those of you who don't know, it's one of the articles that we have available for you to read on the Substack. And ⁓ it was just a coincidence. I noticed I was wearing his brace and I said, Hey, you know, ⁓ by the way, you might find this interesting. I'm wearing this brace. And I know he's ⁓ also into the same things that we are, and he developed his ⁓ company to help people to continue to ⁓ do the things that they love as they age, just like we did. And ⁓ and he wrote a great comment ⁓ underneath that article. And so I just want to thank him for that. Really appreciate it. He's the founder of that company. Thank you. Keith: That's awesome. And we'll put a link to ⁓ we'll put a link to his stuff in the show notes as well. So yeah, awesome. That's that's really cool. All right. The next one comes ⁓ from another old fraternity brother, my little brother Walker. ⁓ I just wanted to shout out Walker White, a, because he ⁓ created our logo, which ⁓ really looks a lot more professional, but B because he has given us some feedback and email that he's listening to the podcast and it's been Lou Fratto: Yeah, cool. Awesome. Yeah. Keith: inspirational for him to kind of get back into going to the gym. And he was asking all kinds of questions about nutrition and supplements. And I know you guys had a good back and forth on that. So thank you, Walker, not only for the support from ⁓ your graphic design skills, but for digging into the content and for letting us go what's going on in your life. And yeah, probably a future podcast guest once we ⁓ get into season two. ⁓ Lou Fratto: Yeah. Awesome. Remember all those awesome ⁓ t-shirts that he designed for us when we were in college? But he maybe he can help us he can help us with our first Thrive AF t-shirt. Keith: Yep. And banners. You know it, man. We're gonna be we're gonna hit merch at some point. Lou Fratto: This time we have to pay him though. Keith: ⁓ shit. Well, we'll figure that out. Maybe we, I mean, we already gave him a shout-out, you know. So that that counts for something. Exactly. The thriving nation. ⁓ and then we had a couple other birthdays too. I think Danny Weber, our old ⁓ fraternity brother, shares the same birthday as you. So happy birthday, Danny. I hope you are listening. Chiropractor to the stars. ⁓ and my four that's right. Lou Fratto: That's worth a lot in our with Thrive Nation. Yeah, really. Right. Right. Melbourne, Florida. Look ⁓ up. If you need if you need your back worked on or your neck. Yeah, I'm Danny. Dr. Danny. Keith: Yep. Great dude, my former roommate, future podcast guest. So Danny, Dr. Danny, you're on the list. ⁓ and I, my friend, our mutual friend, Joe Owen, actually, his birthday is today. so he's a listener as well. So happy birthday, Joe. ⁓ hope you're enjoying it. ⁓ and then the next one, this one came in just today. So ⁓ my old friend Brian Dame. Lou Fratto: Awesome. Happy birthday, Joe. Yep. Keith: ⁓ who I've done some camping trips with that we've been friends forever actually texted me this morning because he is, as we record, in the middle of a Thrive AF outdoor adventure. ⁓ he is in Lake Placid with his family and he decided to go by himself on a solo canoe outing out to an island and camp by himself overnight. Yeah. Lou Fratto: Well Whoa. Keith: And ⁓ he texted me this morning because he thought it was gonna it was gonna get rained out. But shout out Brian ⁓ for for doing the right thing there. And he's out there out there by himself, so respect. So yeah. Lou Fratto: Wow. Major mad respect. You guys that go on those camping trips solo, man, that is just that's another level. Keith: Yeah. I mean, bears, wolves, raccoons, all those animals at one point may have lived in that general area. And he's out there by himself. Lou Fratto: Yes. Yeah. And he's out there and and you know if you've ever been camping, the weirdest noises happen in the middle of the night. It's like, what the heck was that? That was the weirdest, you know, weird things screaming in the middle of the night. Keith: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ well I'm I'm sure that he'll I mean he already sent me some pictures, so we'll do an article on the Substack about it 'cause he's got a pretty cool setup. He actually camps in a hammock, so Lou Fratto: Perfect. ⁓ nice. Him and him and my our old friend Mike Sturdovan could ⁓ swap stories on hammock ⁓ campus. Keith: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Brian Bice ⁓ is is a cyclist as well. So Lou Fratto: ⁓ man, yeah, they could they could hang out. Keith: Indeed. So I think that was the last one. So shout out to everybody. ⁓ the other thing I wanted to say about my friend Brian Markowitz is he actually has people in Delray Beach, ⁓ family. Yeah. So he spent some time now. So maybe he can send some send some of his folks your way, ⁓ if they need anything. Lou Fratto: ⁓ sweet. Yeah, yeah, or just or if he's in town is we can have a beer. Keith: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, really good dude. So all right. Well, that was fun. Well, hopefully again, keep the comments coming. ⁓ if you can, either directly to us, send them an email or reply. We love them, we want to read them, we wanna feature them on the podcast and talk more about it, share stories and ⁓ yeah, subscribe to our stuff and like it and keep Thrive Nation going and growing. Yeah. Cool. Lou Fratto: Awesome. Growing. Exactly. Keith: Got any closing thoughts? Lou Fratto: No, ⁓ no, basically just well, the the if I was to say one thing, it's and you you said it beautifully, it's just know that sleep is an active process and it is the start of your next day. So the night that night before is super important to the following day. And if you think of it that way, it's easy to prioritize it for sure. Keith: Yeah. Yeah, well said. Well said. Cool. All right, are we gonna try the sign off? Lou Fratto: Yeah, let's try it. I'm I'm staring at my little cheat sheet here. Keith: Yeah, I got mine too. All right, ready? Lou Fratto: Yeah. Wait, maybe we should sleep on it and try it again. We'll we'll do better. All right, ready? Go. Keith: Classic. All right. Until next time. Lou Fratto: Keep challenging yourself. Keith: Keep growing and keep thriving AF. Lou Fratto: And keep thrive. ⁓ that was ⁓ horrible, but at least we know the words now. Keith: We blew it. Yeah. Well, we'll get it next time. Lou Fratto: Should we try it again and then you can you can cut the first one and put in the well plastered one? Keith: Okay. Yeah, let's try to make it a little smoother. All right. Lou Fratto: Why don't we wait like a count of three before we say the last one? So can I do this? Keith: Yeah, you can do that. All right, ready? All right, until next time. Lou Fratto: All right, okay. All right, ready? Keep challenging yourself. Keith: Keep growing. Lou Fratto: And keep thriving AF. ⁓ Keith: Deep driving AF. I didn't know if it was the go on three or wait until three. Lou Fratto: ⁓ man. Keith: Hey, we'll get it. Lou Fratto: Yes. We probably should practice it, you know. Yeah. Anyway, hopefully we didn't put anybody to sleep with this one. Keith: That would help. And we get a good night's sleep. All right. Hey, you never know. That might be the whole point. Lou Fratto: Exactly. Keith: All right, man. Thanks, Lou. Appreciate it. We will see you next time. Lou Fratto: By guys. All right. Thanks, Keith. Keith: And cut. Lou Fratto: All right. So we're gonna do now me talking, right? Keith: Yeah, like you like looking scholarly or something. Yeah, that's good. And I'll just like I gotta do this stuff laughing. And you can actually talk. You don't have to stand still 'cause I can take I can take like still shots from Lou Fratto: ⁓ okay. All right. You know, I'm telling you and you know. Yeah. Keith: Alright, that's good enough. Lou Fratto: We're getting into acting now. ⁓ God. Keith: If that works, it's gonna be a miracle. Okay. Lou Fratto: ⁓ my lord. These are these are all things that you know you can't take back once they're out there online. You know, it's like, ⁓ my God. So All right. Perfect. Keith: Nope. All right, I'm gonna stop the recording. You can stay on for a second though.