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How to Become a Divorce Mortgage Specialist with Divorce this House · Mortgage Marketing Radio

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• 1:03
  All right.
• 1:04
  Hey, everybody.
• 1:05
  What's up?
• 1:06
  This is Jeff Zinfor, host of Mortgage Marketing Live, and we're coming to you with a very special
• 1:09
  addition about how to become a divorce lending specialist, and we're going to get started
• 1:15
  in just a moment.
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  And here we are.
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  We're back.
• 1:24
  I'm not sure if the audio came through on that.
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  It did.
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  That's all.
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  All right.
• 1:29
  Cool.
• 1:30
  Awesome.
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  So I want to welcome my special guests.
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  Thanks for being here.
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  I'm going to allow you guys to introduce yourselves, both Graham Pruitt and Professor Kelly Murray.
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  Professor Murray, why don't you go first?
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  Which or my name is Kelly Murray.
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  I am a faculty member at a top 20 law school.
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  I have degrees from Stanford and Harvard law school.
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  But for the past 10 years, I've focused my academic research on housing and financial
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  justice and family court, divorce real estate, which has branched into divorce mortgage.
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  And so that's why I'm on the panel today because we've been teaching real estate agents
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  for a decade.
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  But we've been teaching mortgage professionals specifically with a designated information
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  since 2017.
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  And so Graham has taken that program and we're really excited to share that with everybody.
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  Fantastic.
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  So Graham, obviously welcome back.
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  We know each other, tell the viewers and listeners a little bit about your background.
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  Sure.
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  So I'm in Washington, D.C., Northern Virginia area.
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  I've been in the business since 2006.
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  I don't have the education level that Professor Kelly Murray does.
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  I went to culinary school.
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  So I realized that cooking wasn't for me.
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  And so I naturally just shifted it over into the mortgage business.
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  And I love to learn.
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  I love to educate people.
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  I think if you're standing still, you're not doing it right.
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  So I'm just excited to be here today and share what I'm doing with you guys.
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  Yeah.
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  Awesome.
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  And thank you for being here.
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  And you guys are both very busy.
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  So a little backgrounder for people who don't know.
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  And I know some people already know this and I'm saying hello in the Facebook feed.
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  If you're watching this live, just type in hashtag live or let us know you're here.
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  What questions you might have regarding becoming a divorce lending specialist.
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  Get those in there now because I'm going to be looking at the questions in the feed.
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  And so you want to get your questions answered.
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  So I can see Kevin's here.
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  What's up, Kevin?
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  First you'll shout out to you, Joseph, Roland, glad you guys are all here.
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  And actually, interestingly enough, or just earlier today, Professor Murray, I was on a
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  member's only conference call with people that are, you know, members of, you know, kind
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  of my mortgage-marketing program membership.
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  And one of the people in there actually took your course as well.
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  As a result of our podcast that we did roughly two years ago, and I know Graham, Graham,
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  that's how you became a divorce lending specialist also, right?
• 3:51
  Exactly.
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  Yep.
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  But that podcast definitely has reached a lot of folks.
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  So we've had a lot of mortgage professionals take our training after contacting us after
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  listening to that podcast.
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  Yeah.
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  And so this is why I wanted you guys to come back on is that was roughly two years ago.
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  And as the mortgage space has evolved, as it's gotten more competitive, you know, I'm
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  always thinking about how do I, as a former originator, stand out and rise above the
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  noise.
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  And I've always been a big believer in niche, in specializing in a niche, and clearly
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  divorce lending is a niche.
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  But I think it's different in other niches that people might pursue, like rental loans
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  or, I don't know, low down payment, first time buy, you know, all that stuff, that's
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  fine and well.
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  For me, being able to show up and speak intelligently about divorce lending and all the things
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  that are involved in that, and then actually pursuing divorce attorneys to build relationships.
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  To me, that requires special skill sets and awareness and knowledge.
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  Let me ask Graham first.
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  Would you agree with that?
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  100%.
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  Yeah.
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  You know, there's all these pillars of business you can have, you can see PAs, financial
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  planners, divorce attorneys, but there's not really any education or teaching on how do
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  you actually talk to those people when you get a chance to sit in front of them and captivate
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  their attention and tell them something that they're actually interested in.
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  So, yeah, that's one of the biggest hurdles I've gotten when I get feedback from other
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  people.
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  They're like, well, what do I say?
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  How do I show up?
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  There's a little bit of fear of intimidation.
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  Yes.
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  Professor Murdo, do you think that's healthy to have a certain level fear?
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  Well, actually, you can say the wrong thing and you can do the wrong thing with lawyers.
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  Let's just start with that.
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  Lawyers expect less, not more.
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  They don't want lots, they don't want long-winded, they want you to get right to the point.
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  They also want to know why you're doing this, so your why is really important.
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  We've been teaching live online, we've been teaching Lenders since the fall of 2018 and
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  Realtors Live Online since January 2019, and my class this week with Realtors in divorce
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  real estate.
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  One is already working with divorced judges, and the judge asked him his why.
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  Well, after taking our training, he has an even more succinct way of framing that, and
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  so it's really important why you're doing this, and it cannot be, I'm looking for re-fies.
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  That's, you know, hey, you're getting divorced great, let me re-fie you.
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  That's the worst approach.
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  You already know that, but that's what they think you're going to say.
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  So, you need to say something other than the expected mercenary approach, really.
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  You want me to tell them why?
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  Why we do it?
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  So, we really do this to help them preserve homeownership eligibility and protect the
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  credit score of both divorcing spouses.
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  That's, those are the two whys that we tell the attorneys of why we're doing this.
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  It's not because we want to get a refinance, and we want the commission.
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  It's really to protect, it's consumer protection, and it's to help them get through this tough
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  time without, you know, messing up their ability to, number one, refinance or purchase a new
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  home.
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  So, for those who don't know, what have you seen?
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  What are some of the negative effects of not having proper guidance and counseling through
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  a divorce as it relates to the home?
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  Well, I'll take it just from the litigation side.
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  Why, as Wendy Wissler co-founder points out, we're training as a different point of view,
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  and our point of view starts with courts and judges and how they rule on facts relating
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  to a divorce real estate and a mortgage.
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  That's our perspective, and we do that state by state because divorces state-specific,
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  not federalized, even though mortgage a lot of it's federalized.
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  And so, what I see going wrong is someone's keeping the house.
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  And she says, oh, I'll refinance, and she doesn't check with a mortgage professional first.
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  And then after everything's over, after all the mistakes have been made, and those mistakes
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  become permanent as part of the divorce process, you can't do anything to help her.
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  That's the worst time for a mortgage professional to get involved.
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  And so, what I see in the litigation is the outspouse suing because the house spouse didn't
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  refinance successfully, did not remove his name from the mortgage.
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  So, that's just one of the mistakes.
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  It's just saying you're going to refinance, so that means you qualify.
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  And now we have the quarantine and the pandemic aspect to it.
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  And so, they made me aware she can't refinance.
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  And my concern is, people shouldn't keep the house just because they think they can't
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  sell it.
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  They can still lose it.
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  And she can still not refinance, which you already know that of the effect that that's
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  going to have on the other spouse, right?
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  If she doesn't refinance, they both stay on this joint mortgage.
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  And so, that's what I see is failing to sell or failing to refinance, which is the bigger
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  problem.
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  And how that continues to affect both spouses can damage their credit scores, and you cannot
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  close a loan for either one of them for years.
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  So, those are some of the biggest problems I see.
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  Right.
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  Have you personally experienced that since being involved in this niche as well, Graham?
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  Well, that's kind of why I got into it.
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  I had a few divorce situations that came to me for refinances, and I'm looking at it going,
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  well, this wasn't properly put together.
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  And you can't do this.
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  And who did you talk to before you finalized this to see if you could actually accomplish
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  this?
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  So, there was a couple things that I noticed that prompted me to say, well, there's
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  got to be a better way.
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  And that created this sort of, and there's really a need for our expertise in the industry
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  to help these people before they go and sign on the dotted line.
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  So, that was something that I noticed.
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  Since then, nothing specific to where what she mentioned, but it's out there.
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  There is no doubt that mistakes happen, and then the person that wanted to keep the house
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  can't refinance, and the other person doesn't want anything to do with it.
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  So, then, obviously, the house has to get sold, or something else has to happen.
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  What was your perception, Graham, about going after this niche or diverse divorce attorneys
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  in particular, and was that accurate as you engaged, or what's different than your perception
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  was?
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  Well, I realized after doing some research that there is a, I mean, the light bulb went
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  off in my head, and I said, there's nobody really specializing in this, and focusing
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  on it, you know, obviously, the attorneys have maybe somebody that they know that it's
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  in the mortgage business, and they just throw them a deal when everything is done, but
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  there was no real, no real process or structure around it.
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  Yeah, exactly.
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  So, that's kind of where I started doing the research.
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  I found this, and I just went, boom, this is it.
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  This is exactly what I needed, because through the course, it teaches you what to say to
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  the attorneys.
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  And as you do it, and as you study it, and as you, it becomes more part of your vocabulary,
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  and you have conversations with attorneys, you realize that, in most instances, they're
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  going to say, this is great, this is exactly what we need.
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  We'd love to implement this, and then you're, you know, and then some will pick little
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  things out and say, I can see how this can be beneficial because of the home inspection.
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  And I can see that, man, this is a glaring gap.
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  We never pull title when we're doing, you know, when we're going through, you know, the
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  part, you know, beginning stages when they're doing the research.
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  So Professor Murray, why is it?
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  And I know this.
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  I've got the background, because I went through your divorce lining certification class
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  live, you know, a couple of years ago in California when we fall first met.
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  And so there's a lot of info.
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  What surprised me and what really stood out to me is, you know, and I don't know if I'm
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  alone in this, but I thought lawyers knew everything.
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  Right.
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  Well, and divorce lawyers know a lot about a lot.
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  And so one other aspect of the pandemic and the quarantine is, you know, divorce is not
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  decreasing, and you can see all the articles coming out.
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  It's not a good thing.
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  It just is.
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  And so divorce is not increasing and lawyers are projecting in articles that maybe it's
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  increasing.
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  But also happen is lawyers who practice in other specializations will add divorce without
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  knowing enough.
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  So we have two pieces where your question was, is why aren't divorce lawyers doing more
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  about house due diligence and mortgage due diligence?
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  Why aren't they?
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  My additional concern is that additional lawyers coming in who are just getting started as
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  divorce lawyers because there's going to be an increased demand.
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  And so both need you.
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  The ones coming in need you even more.
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  They may realize they don't know everything.
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  But the first step, I know there's a longer answer, but the first step is, divorce lawyers
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  have to know a lot about a lot.
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  What I've seen in mediation circumstances, and I've taken the collaborative law training
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  and the mediation training for the state of Tennessee.
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  And so I've done the ADR, it's under dispute resolution methods, but what I see is they
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  start with the easiest yes, that's what you've trained in mediation.
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  You're not going to start with the hardest issue to have them in a fight.
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  You start with the easiest well.
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  If she wants to keep that house or now, like in 2008, someone has to keep that house,
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  where will that mediate or start with the house?
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  And she'll keep it.
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  So it just, the short, the end of this long answer is they do what's expedient, what's
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  in front of them to get to the tougher issues.
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  And the house usually has an agreement without any data behind it.
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  No one's gone to check for the lender to see if she qualifies on the refinance.
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  What hadn't convinced her to do that?
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  So it's a two, there are two parts.
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  Your approach and outreach to lawyers, actually there's three parts then, your approach and
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  outreach to lawyers, your approach and outreach to divorcing homeowners, but also your approach
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  and outreach to real estate licensees.
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  That's another key component to this.
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  How do you find the lawyers and Graham can speak about this?
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  One of the things we show you is how to leverage your team's lawyer connections, meaning you
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  don't have to have all the lawyers.
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  You're a support person to go with that real estate licensee, to meet with her lawyers and
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  help her in that meeting, and that just expands your reach.
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  So this is a substantive, but it's also networking and team building.
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  And frankly, your team is the reason the divorce lawyer needs you the most.
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  So if I heard you correctly, then we'll get to the question that I know I see Liz Reese,
• 14:18
  by the way, in the Facebook land.
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  What's up, Liz?
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  She's got a great question about what we'll get to in just a second.
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  So the thing that surprised me is to your point about during the conversation about who
• 14:29
  gets the house, keeps the house, they kind of let it, the mediator, whatever.
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  That thing gets settled, the attorney, the divorce attorney in a lot of cases, isn't aware
• 14:38
  of that decision and the impact to their financial future.
• 14:43
  Is that correct?
• 14:44
  Right.
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  So they make a decision about what are we going to do with the house because it's the easiest
• 14:48
  yes to get.
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  She's going to keep it great.
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  She'll refinance great.
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  We're fine.
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  We get a yes.
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  We have an agreement, right?
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  And then we get to the more challenging questions, and there are a lot of challenging questions.
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  And so what surprises, more good professionals in our classes, and what surprises real estate
• 15:03
  licensees in our classes, is that there isn't more attention spent on all of the issues
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  you all are involved in winning mortgage closes.
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  So when I always teach us, the documents needed to buy the house are completely different
• 15:18
  than what's used to divorce that same house.
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  That's the actual answer.
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  And how do I know this?
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  In 2013, that's the only year since 2008, I did not teach real estate licensees.
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  In 2013, I taught over 500 judges and lawyers in three states.
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  And I surveyed them.
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  And so that's how I know what's in use and what's not in use from actual surveys of family
• 15:42
  judges and divorce lawyers in three states.
• 15:45
  And most of the documents you, the lender, requires a closing, are missing from the divorce.
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  So how do you get those in?
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  You've got to tell people why it cannot just be a checklist.
• 15:54
  I learned this early on.
• 15:56
  Can't just give people a checklist here, do all of this.
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  If they don't know why it's needed, it looks like more, more work, more work, and divorce
• 16:05
  is already document intensive on other issues.
• 16:09
  All your credit card statements, all your spend, how much did you spend on birthday parties
• 16:13
  in 2019 for your three children who go to an average of 17 parties a year?
• 16:17
  No one keeps track, but the other side's asking you for that, and you're a photocopying
• 16:21
  and trying to find a PDFs and contacting your financial companies.
• 16:26
  It's so overwhelming that that's another reason why the house is lighter on documentation.
• 16:33
  We need to increase it, but with a purpose, it's not, hey, let's just grab some documents
• 16:38
  from closing.
• 16:39
  Why do these matter?
• 16:40
  If you can't explain why they matter both substantively and the divorce and then the
• 16:44
  strategic use in a divorce, you're just given them a checklist, which does not work.
• 16:48
  Trust me.
• 16:49
  I tried that 10 years ago.
• 16:50
  It does not work.
• 16:51
  Interesting.
• 16:52
  You have to give meaning behind what you're asking for.
• 16:55
  Okay, so let's deal with the question that Liz Reese, by the way, applause to Liz Reese
• 17:01
  for asking the question.
• 17:03
  The probably most common question, which we talked about upfront, is how do you get
• 17:07
  in front of attorneys in the first place?
• 17:10
  I feel like they don't want to spend the time.
• 17:12
  That's Liz's question.
• 17:13
  Graham, do you want to take this one?
• 17:15
  Sure.
• 17:16
  Yeah, so I had a meeting with a group of attorneys before I had my designation, and
• 17:21
  it flopped.
• 17:22
  Okay.
• 17:23
  So what I realized was that what we're normally just talking to them about, they really don't
• 17:28
  care.
• 17:29
  Or there's no way to bring it full sort of, you know, you're not really sort of coming
• 17:34
  in with an approach.
• 17:35
  It's just a general, hey, I can do the brief finance.
• 17:37
  So I think with getting in front of attorneys and how we do it is we need to, we need to
• 17:44
  be able to talk to them about something that they're not thinking about that were experts
• 17:48
  in.
• 17:49
  So through the RCSD designation, you learn all those things.
• 17:53
  You learn how to control the conversation versus just being, you know, being there and
• 17:59
  having them ask you questions and having them control it.
• 18:02
  So I think it starts there as having the confidence to be able to talk about what it is that
• 18:07
  you want to show them and knowing your scripts and knowing what it is that why you're there
• 18:12
  and how you can help.
• 18:14
  Graham, have you been helping the real estate agents who have been, who received a designation
• 18:19
  and have you been going with them to their lawyer meetings?
• 18:22
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:23
  So that's another, that's a part of the answer to this question is that not all the lawyers
• 18:27
  are coming from you.
• 18:28
  They're coming from the real estate agents that you're working with.
• 18:30
  Yeah, I've had two, I had two Zoom meetings last week, three this week and they've all
• 18:34
  been from realtors that had the connections with those attorneys.
• 18:40
  And so in the beginning, in the beginning, you're really holding their hand and sort of
• 18:47
  leading that meeting so that they get their one, two, three, four on their belt and then
• 18:53
  they can actually, they can do it themselves and they can sort of not take over, but it
• 18:57
  becomes more of this back and forth natural meeting that you would have where you're, you
• 19:02
  know, both of you are adding what you're supposed to add to that conversation and it gets
• 19:08
  really smooth and then you can, you know, it looks really good to the lawyers.
• 19:11
  So the lawyers don't all have to come from you and your own efforts.
• 19:15
  We teach you how to contact your team members, your associates, your vendors because it
• 19:23
  could be your home inspector who knows the divorce lawyer.
• 19:25
  We teach you how to do that so you should be leveraging, even without the training you
• 19:29
  should be leveraging your own connections who, you know, one to two, you know, it's not
• 19:33
  six degrees of Kevin Bacon, it's more like one to two people away.
• 19:37
  It really is and I call it my, here's what I'm creating, I'm creating an army of realtors
• 19:43
  who are out there in their B&I groups, they're out there in their spheres, they're talking
• 19:47
  to their people and they're, and they've got the designation and now they're bringing
• 19:51
  up the fact that they're specializing in divorce real estate and getting those meetings
• 19:56
  and then calling me and bringing me in.
• 19:58
  And that's really the power behind this and I think the main reason that people want
• 20:03
  to listen to this podcast because it's, it's a great, and you're probably, I'm going
• 20:07
  to jump in on your next question, but Jeff, go ahead.
• 20:10
  You lead the, you lead the charge and then, no, man, keep going.
• 20:13
  Yeah, I mean, it's, for me, as mortgage people, we're always looking for a reason to be
• 20:18
  able to get in front of realtors to tell them something that's different and to try
• 20:23
  to bring some values so that they will trust you and send their clients to you.
• 20:27
  And this is the number one thing that I have going right now, it's the, it, I honestly,
• 20:33
  I ask it to every realtor because it's a simple ask, hey, have you ever thought about
• 20:37
  working with divorce attorneys?
• 20:39
  And most of them are going to say, yes, I have.
• 20:41
  And I said, have you ever worked with one or had a referral from one, no, I haven't.
• 20:45
  And so then it's just a natural conversation.
• 20:47
  Well, I've been meeting with a lot of divorce attorneys.
• 20:50
  I really found a designation that can, can I think help you in this area, which would
• 20:54
  love to sit down and talk about it?
• 20:56
  Okay.
• 20:57
  I like that.
• 20:58
  Let me pause on that for a second.
• 20:59
  Sure.
• 21:00
  We can come back to that conversation.
• 21:01
  People in Facebook land, you've got more questions about how do you approach realtors,
• 21:04
  how do you approach divorce attorneys?
• 21:05
  What do you say?
• 21:06
  Things like that.
• 21:07
  That's right going.
• 21:08
  But let's pivot for a second back to you for a moment, Professor Murray.
• 21:11
  This RCSD.
• 21:12
  Is that correct?
• 21:13
  RCSD designation?
• 21:14
  Yes.
• 21:15
  What does that mean?
• 21:16
  How is it different than other divorce like certs that are out there and stuff like that?
• 21:21
  Well, first, let me just give you one major takeaway.
• 21:25
  Okay.
• 21:26
  Lawyers ask, is this one of those fake real estate certifications?
• 21:31
  Lawyers actually ask this because they think those letters are fake.
• 21:35
  So my number one recommendation is, do not tell a lawyer that you're certified.
• 21:40
  Even if you've taken a training that uses the word certified, use the acronym, not the
• 21:43
  word certified.
• 21:44
  Because lawyers are education snobs and they think there's actually a class, not for mortgage
• 21:50
  professional, but for real estate agents, four hours claiming that you're certified.
• 21:53
  Do you think a lawyer thinks a real estate agent after a four-hour training is certified?
• 21:58
  No.
• 21:59
  So we have a designation because you don't need to be an expert.
• 22:04
  You're right.
• 22:05
  The specialized in divorce mortgage and to tell a lawyer, I specialize in divorce mortgage,
• 22:09
  you're not overplaying it, you're not overselling it.
• 22:12
  And so the lawyer, you keep your credibility, which is the most important thing.
• 22:16
  So that's why our designation is a designation and not a certification.
• 22:20
  The letters are RCS-D, real estate collaboration specialist divorce.
• 22:27
  And we started it with real estate licensees and then lenders that they were working with
• 22:30
  and wanted to sit in our class.
• 22:32
  So what we used to do is reorder it and have lenders audit a live, like a four-hour segment.
• 22:39
  And then in January of 2017, after I was forced by a training promoter to create a lender-specific
• 22:48
  class during my Christmas break between fallen sprints and nesters.
• 22:51
  So I did this under protest and it went so well that we've been teaching mortgage-specific
• 22:56
  training, divorce mortgage specialist, we call it the divorce mortgage blueprint, since
• 23:01
  January of 2017, we've been live online since the fall of 2018 for mortgage professionals.
• 23:08
  And so, but what's interesting about the designation, if you said to a lawyer, I'm in RCS-D,
• 23:14
  the lawyer doesn't need to know what that is, the question is, well, what is that?
• 23:18
  It's better than saying, let me refile your clients.
• 23:21
  That's what the lawyer thinks you're going to say, that's what the lawyer thinks you want,
• 23:25
  the lawyer has the lawyer differentiating you from all the other lenders who've asked.
• 23:30
  And so we have to give them what we're doing is providing a support, you're a colleague
• 23:34
  not a vendor, that's the main difference in what we do, we have this consumer protection
• 23:39
  approach, you are specializing, you're not an expert, you're designated not certified,
• 23:44
  so that you can break through the lawyer's barriers, one by one, you know, you're not
• 23:50
  saying what they expect and you're not the mercenary, I just want to refile approach,
• 23:55
  we feel like they need to protect their clients from that.
• 23:58
  Yeah, well said, or let's roll this back to what we left off with Graham there in terms
• 24:03
  of how do we even get an audience with the attorneys, what you're saying is we don't
• 24:06
  necessarily approach them solo or alone, we find the right agents to first team up
• 24:13
  with, have a conversation about the divorce specialization is part one, is that right?
• 24:21
  Graham, I'll let you take that.
• 24:22
  Yeah, I mean, well, there's a lot of different, there's, so what I tell, what I tell the
• 24:28
  realtors is, just like they're the spoke and the wheel of referrals, right? We all go to
• 24:33
  everybody wants to meet the realtor because they think it's title, it's mortgage, it's paint,
• 24:38
  it's, it's all these things, all these people, you know, are, but the realtors can refer,
• 24:43
  I say it's the same thing for the divorce attorneys, they're the spoke, they're the wheel and in the
• 24:47
  middle of that spoke, where you've got financial planner, CPAs, everybody's also trying to,
• 24:53
  I wouldn't say feed off of what the realtors do or what the attorneys do, but essentially,
• 24:58
  they create a lot of opportunities and business for other people. So you don't just have to go
• 25:03
  right to the attorney, you can go to that financial professional, you can go to the,
• 25:09
  whoever, you know, that's out there in your, in your sphere to, to then get that
• 25:14
  warm referral into the, into the attorneys. So it's not unnecessarily a direct shot right to them,
• 25:18
  it's sort of a, you're going through others to get to them. You can go directly to them,
• 25:24
  to the attorneys, but your best bet and the best approach that I found, number one is,
• 25:30
  well, it's, to get to the realtor, so as a mortgage person to get to the realtors,
• 25:35
  the easiest way to do that is number one is just do a lunch and learn through title companies.
• 25:39
  Hey, listen, we've got, I've got this designation. I'd love to teach your agents about it.
• 25:44
  Would you like to do something like that? So that's an easy way to do it. And then let's pause
• 25:48
  right there. Hold on. Sure. That's, that's a really big piece. And a lot of people my audience
• 25:53
  know is you, you know, know, well, I'm big on classes and educational platform. What's up?
• 25:58
  Mattello. Shout out to you, my man. So by you becoming RCSD designation, I'm going to send
• 26:07
  the C word, Professor Murray. It's, it's, it's, it's, what we have to do is speak to the lawyers
• 26:14
  in the way they expect. And so the real estate community is big on certification lawyers think it's
• 26:20
  fake. And they think it's overstated. So I'm just, I'm just making that clarification. So
• 26:24
  everyone's more successful when they do approach even a real estate lawyer or a divorce lawyer.
• 26:29
  Yeah. So am I hearing then that if somebody as a lender, I, you know, want to engage with the
• 26:35
  services of your company, divorce this house.com, I'm going to be equipped with being able to teach
• 26:40
  a lunch and learn class on this topic to realtors. Right. So what we have is when he was sell is our
• 26:47
  marketing person. So I'm the heavy lifting. I'm the research nerd on the lawyer. She's the
• 26:52
  razzle dazzle. And she's in the two years ago, the podcast with Jeff. So you can listen to her and
• 26:58
  hear and agree with me that she is our marketing genius. And so what she's created is an introduction
• 27:04
  to divorce real estate. It's, it's beautifully done. The slides are gorgeous. She gives you all the
• 27:10
  things you need to say, but you need to follow her script. It needs to sound like you, but you can't
• 27:16
  just riff off. So we watch video because we test you first before we let you run out and do it.
• 27:21
  So in our CSD mortgage professional, we make you send us a video of you doing it. And so when
• 27:25
  people follow the script, it works great. And when they try to riff off on something else, it doesn't
• 27:30
  because this is not, the takeaway is not, hey, realtors, you know enough to go out and meet with a lawyer
• 27:35
  because I teach real estate agents nine hours. So a 20-minute presentation is not going to take the
• 27:40
  place of nine hours. But what it does and what it's done for ground, it gets you in front of real estate
• 27:45
  agents with actual takeaways, an actual plan while we have more debt time while we are, you know,
• 27:52
  sheltering in place and we're online more and you have their attention and you are showing them
• 27:58
  your expertise, you're bringing them, Wendy says news, news they can use. And it's and a plan to
• 28:05
  add to their marketing as real estate agents. And so and as we said at the top, divorce is not
• 28:13
  decreasing, it's not. And my concern is people, divorce lawyers, divorcing homeowners and
• 28:19
  everyone else involved need mortgage professionals and need real estate licenses even more than they
• 28:24
  realize because of the new constraints. You know, we look every day at what's changing and lending
• 28:29
  and the secondary market and all of that. So it's a lot going on and it's not, it's not business
• 28:34
  as usual. It doesn't mean we're closed down. It's definitely not business as usual. So you're
• 28:38
  needed actually even more. Yeah, I like to say normal has been canceled. Normal definitely,
• 28:44
  that's brilliant. Normal definitely has been canceled. So Graham, all right. So you started by
• 28:52
  teaching this intro to divorce real estate lunch and learn in your local area, right? Correct.
• 28:57
  And so did you follow the normal process of getting agents butts in the seats where you more
• 29:02
  selected or did you just do the selection process post class? I've done a couple of different
• 29:07
  ways. Originally, I went to a title rep that I really liked and she hand picked the agents that she
• 29:13
  thought would be that would be interested in this. Funny enough, out of that first group of seven
• 29:18
  or eight people, three or four signed up to do the class, one of them has become the best RCSD
• 29:25
  realtor I have and she is fantastic. I'll take her on any any attorney meeting and and you know,
• 29:33
  she's great. So and then there's two or three other ones that have come from that that have
• 29:36
  finally have kind of understood the importance of it. I've gone the route of going to the title
• 29:42
  attorneys and just having them blast it out to their to their sphere and that doesn't end up
• 29:46
  being you know the right way to do it. I don't think I've gone to brokers and I've talking to
• 29:51
  brokers that have you know I don't know 80 or 90 people underneath them and they hand select
• 29:56
  people that they want to come to the events. So I like I like the hand selected piece. I don't like
• 30:04
  I don't like the cast a wide net. I like the people going to the ones that they think will be really
• 30:09
  good at this and and doing it that way. Let's just shout out to Grant was in front. Grant was
• 30:14
  in front of the managing broker. Yeah tell us tell us that quick story because I have the notes
• 30:24
  here. You got in front of a managing broker and that led to something very meaningful. Yeah,
• 30:27
  we did a we did a lunch and learn and she had 40 of her agents on the on that call and I think nine
• 30:33
  or 10 of them have signed up to become RCSD's. I think they did their training or most of them did
• 30:37
  their training and I literally have 10 people or eight or nine people just to call and talk to.
• 30:43
  Hey, what did you think of the training? When are you ready to get started? You know, when can we
• 30:48
  start doing some training videos together? You know, so the conversation doesn't just become,
• 30:52
  hey, do you have a buyer? It's like, hey, when are you ready to get started on this? Let's meet
• 30:56
  with some attorneys. Let's do this. Let's get some business going and it's it's just a totally
• 31:01
  different conversation and they look at me and they're looking at me as somebody who's
• 31:06
  who is different. They trust me. They think I've got an expertise because once you start
• 31:11
  once you can meet with once you can sit down and talk to an attorney and and and have a good
• 31:17
  conversation and lead that meeting, I would say it increases your your your your like ability,
• 31:24
  the trust level that they would have with you. People think you're smarter than you probably are.
• 31:28
  So all those things that your stock goes up, man, your stock goes up.
• 31:33
  Here we go for sure. Have you been doing then some of these intro to divorce classes virtually
• 31:38
  since this whole COVID? Yeah, yeah. Actually, I found the virtual to be not easier,
• 31:44
  but it's easier to get people to say yes and to have those meetings. Yes, you'll have better
• 31:48
  attendance now, which is interesting. And I've actually been doing a lot of Zoom meetings with
• 31:54
  the attorneys themselves and the realtor and then we've created a separate slide deck to take that
• 32:00
  presentation that we would normally do just in front of them just on a slide deck and just kind of
• 32:05
  talk over it. So do you find a mix of in terms of the agents you're choosing to align with here,
• 32:11
  some of them have some attorneys to introduce you to, some of them don't?
• 32:17
  Yes, so some of them are in B&I groups, right? And they'll have an attorney law attorney that's
• 32:23
  in the B&I group or they'll have half a dozen or so past customers that have actually gone through
• 32:29
  divorce where they can then get that attorney's information to connect with them. So yes,
• 32:35
  some have none, some have a lot more than they realize. It's funny, you mentioned family law
• 32:41
  and people have gone through this, let's face it, right? I mean, what's the stats? 50% of people in
• 32:45
  this country and I'm just reading some of the notes from some of my friends and colleagues that
• 32:49
  in this, you know, Kevin's mentioning, what's up, Kevin? Shout out to you high five. He has a personal
• 32:56
  story. He shared this in Facebook. So I guess I could bring it to the surface here is that he saw how
• 33:00
  his mother was treated by financial institutions after which life was made much harder and he wants to
• 33:05
  make sure that doesn't happen to other single parents. Absolutely, Kevin. That's that's been the
• 33:10
  driving force behind my focus for over 10 years on this topic because one thing everyone should
• 33:16
  remember is property division is permanent. Support can be modified. It's difficult, but it's
• 33:23
  still possible. You have to have a significant positive change in circumstances or significant
• 33:27
  negative change in circumstances. That support property division is permanent and you know the
• 33:32
  connection between real estate and your credit score. And so and then other bills that don't get paid
• 33:38
  and once that damage is done, it it isn't fixed for years and you'll have a higher interest rate
• 33:45
  and so that's why one of our focus is on the credit score. That's one of the most important assets
• 33:50
  everyone should protect during the divorce of that after the divorce and on a positive trajectory.
• 33:57
  If they had that they start out with poor you know challenge credit, it's not going to get better
• 34:02
  because of the divorce, but what they do could make it worse or at least stay where they are and
• 34:06
  that's part of what your role is to really help them come out on a positive trajectory financially.
• 34:11
  Yeah. Graham, are these transactions any more challenging or complex than your average transactions?
• 34:19
  No, they're not. It's really it's it's really the same thing as if you're sitting down with the
• 34:24
  first time homebuyer and going through the process of what doing a mortgage looks like. I mean you
• 34:29
  do need to know some guidelines associated with people going you know you need to know your
• 34:32
  guidelines in this in this space, but it's it's no different. The only difference is is sometimes
• 34:38
  the timing right. So you're going to do a pre-qual or you're going to do a pre-debourse you know
• 34:44
  uh meeting with the client and then it may be three or four months before they can actually do
• 34:49
  something or longer just depends depends on their ability to qualify once the divorce is finalized.
• 34:55
  But your actions early can help them qualify. Oh yeah. You're the difference. That's why I don't
• 35:00
  teach underwriting. You don't need me to teach you underwriting and frankly I can't teach a teacher.
• 35:04
  When you getting involved earlier helps them qualify when the divorce is over and if you're
• 35:10
  not involved they may not qualify. That leads to zero transactions. That's the worst outcome for
• 35:15
  everyone. Right. Including because real estate drives the economy. I was looking at an NAR
• 35:20
  statistic every closing adds eighty five thousand dollars on average to the economy and goods and
• 35:26
  services. Interesting. Wow. That's what real estate is a driving engine of the economy which is why
• 35:31
  real estate professionals are essential workers right now doing things virtually because we don't
• 35:36
  want the 2008 meltdown. We need mortgage to keep going to keep real estate going.
• 35:42
  Yeah absolutely and I would assume that also you know you're you're building not to sound
• 35:47
  cliche but you're building clients for life helping them navigate this difficult time.
• 35:51
  Yeah yeah and I think um and I wrote a note here that the the referrals from the attorneys are
• 35:59
  really they're great referrals. Yeah. When the people sit down and you and you walk them through
• 36:04
  that process and you help them they don't they don't just they don't just throw your number away
• 36:09
  that when when they're ready to go they're calling you back because because they appreciate it all
• 36:14
  that. Yeah 100 percent. So I'm glad you guys brought up some of the key points today which is like
• 36:19
  you know you're not succeeding in this niche is not about getting the deal right. It's not about
• 36:26
  listening to another three transactions a month. You've got to have the long-term game in mindset
• 36:32
  yes and referral partners. This niche is about referral partners not just deal by deal.
• 36:37
  It is it's more about yeah I think it's more about that it's it's a long play so like my goal or my
• 36:44
  my thought process in this and this is probably good for your audiences and the next three to five
• 36:48
  years plugging away plugging away plugging away just about every attorney in in in where I am
• 36:54
  is going to know my name and they're going to note they're going to associate me with with mortgage
• 36:59
  and and the service that we provide. Yeah and and like we said earlier it's really it's great that
• 37:04
  you're actually building two referral sources the attorney is obviously one side but then of course
• 37:10
  by you teaming up with very select agents naturally what comes out of that is you work together
• 37:15
  on that business but to your point about building the trust you're going to then get that other
• 37:19
  business as well because of that partnership. Well residential real estate agents have also
• 37:23
  just residential clients not divorced so when you build that relationship in the divorce sphere
• 37:28
  it builds your relationship for other transactions with residential real estate. Yeah at 100 percent.
• 37:33
  Cool so listen I know we're almost out of time here so before we do I want to for those that
• 37:37
  are interested in taking the next step there is a process here like we said you need to get
• 37:42
  educated and I think the first step we we can't cover it all here right now is so we do have
• 37:47
  the next step if you guys want to go deeper on this what's involved in the certification you know
• 37:52
  what we can talk deeper on whatever topics you think are relevant for you making a decision about
• 37:57
  is this a niche you should pursue so what we've done is decided to team up myself
• 38:02
  because like I said two years ago I brought you guys to the podcast and it's time I brought you back
• 38:06
  so we're going to team up professor Murray and Wendy she'll be on the webinar as well right?
• 38:11
  Yes so Wendy Whistle has we have a free webinar. Next week Wendy Whistle and I will be teaching you
• 38:18
  some takeaways so you can make an informed decision about whether you want to specialize
• 38:22
  in divorce jurisdiction and divorce management and I'm going to give you the URL the link for that
• 38:26
  in just a moment but I wanted to share the screen with you real quickly just to show you some of
• 38:32
  the topics that are going to be covered so here's the title of the webinar wide divorce mortgage
• 38:36
  matters even more during COVID-19 so consider this the intro to niche and virtual marketing
• 38:41
  specifically obviously to this divorce niche so we're going to walk just deeper through the stuff
• 38:46
  we touched on here today which is you're right landing those referral sources the easy way the
• 38:51
  proven way because obviously divorce this house and this for quite a number of years so they've
• 38:56
  got the blueprint so to speak right as a matter of fact that's the name of the classroom right
• 39:02
  go figure right so this is all about kind of those next steps how do you approach realtors what
• 39:06
  are the conversations what do you say what do you not say right how do you not look silly how do you
• 39:10
  not make a fool of yourself because that's very important as well like I think she says right here
• 39:15
  key takeaway how not to market to divorce lawyers incredibly important what doesn't work so
• 39:20
  professor Murray's going to leave this I'll be there as well kind of as a moderator if you will
• 39:25
  Wendy will be there all so so how do you make a reservation for this let me stop sharing my screen
• 39:33
  and bring up the URL love this live stream tool here it is it's showing right in your banner right
• 39:39
  there you want to go to divorce mortgage if I could speak divorce mortgage class.com is where you can
• 39:46
  go and register for that free webinar is going to be May 14th one Pacific that's what for Eastern
• 39:52
  I think so yeah and so it's going to be a decent what it's going to be about an hour or so right so be
• 39:58
  prepared to dig in bring your node pad and all that kind of jazz because if after what you hear and see
• 40:04
  and learn and get a chance to know professor Murray and Wendy at a deeper level if you feel you want
• 40:09
  to take the next step to become a certified sorry divorce lending specialist yes you'll be
• 40:20
  able to make that next step appropriately at that time so and obviously you've heard from Graham
• 40:25
  I've had by the way not only earlier it was Corey Yelton who was on my meeting earlier who
• 40:30
  went through your class yes and also you probably remember Wendy Thompson yes from many years ago
• 40:37
  Wendy and I know each other for 10 years she's been through your class as well as a handful of other
• 40:42
  people so you guys are doing good things out there in the industry that's why I'm happy to bring
• 40:47
  you to my member community thanks so much you bet thank you for being here I know you're incredibly
• 40:52
  busy Graham thank you for being here once again listeners if you do want to take the step jump on
• 40:57
  the URL there divorce mortgage class.com it's free no obligation or nothing go check it out
• 41:04
  we're going to close out here I see a couple of comments Carl self what's up Carl
• 41:10
  Carl just made it made a change all right Carl you'll have to let me know what that means
• 41:15
  for you all right so as we wrap up here one last question and I think this is a probably a good
• 41:24
  question professor Murray you might want to take this how does this different than a CDLP
• 41:31
  actually I'm not the person to answer that question Graham has taken that training so
• 41:36
  Graham's taking both trainings yeah we we have a different perspective that's all I can say about
• 41:41
  it but Graham's been through the other training yeah it's not even this it's not even the same
• 41:47
  so the CDLP is more for guidelines and understanding sort of like you know some legal issues the
• 41:53
  mortgage side and some other stuff some tax related stuff related to divorce the RCSD tells you
• 41:59
  exactly what you need to say and how you're going to present to the attorneys and it's just a
• 42:04
  totally different perspective completely different perspective than any other certification that's
• 42:08
  out there I've got both and the RCSD gets me in front of the attorneys awesome and I think that's
• 42:14
  the real key right this is how do we get in front of the people that can help us grow our business
• 42:19
  and make a difference out there as we are yeah okay cool good questions all right everybody we got
• 42:23
  a jump we're going to close it out here as we always do thank you once again professor Murray
• 42:28
  Graham through it appreciate you listeners as you know I appreciate you as well let's wrap this
• 42:33
  up and we'll see you on the next one
• 42:43
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• 42:47
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