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S1E4: What 25 Years of Friendship Across Race Has Taught Us · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Danyelle: Welcome to the Third Thing, a podcast about friendship in all its fullness.
• 0:04
  Danyelle: The conflict worth repairing, the evolution worth honoring, and sometimes the letting go.
• 0:10
  Michelle: Think of it as a kitchen table conversation with honesty, laughter, validation, and plenty of tea.
• 0:17
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle, a therapist, healer, and hoodoo practitioner who's been thinking about the way we love each other for most of my life.
• 0:25
  Michelle: And I'm Michelle, a life coach, facilitator, and a spaceholder at my core.
• 0:30
  Michelle: I've spent a lifetime helping people communicate better and more honestly.
• 0:34
  Danyelle: We've been best friends for 26 years and we've got the receipts.
• 0:39
  Danyelle: We've done the work and we want to share what we've learned.
• 0:41
  Danyelle: The tools, the hard parts, the things nobody taught us.
• 0:45
  Michelle: There are a lot of people figuring out their friendships without a roadmap, so we're pulling up a chair.
• 0:51
  Michelle: Girl, I'm just gonna go right into it.
• 0:53
  Michelle: We're talking about race today.
• 0:54
  Danyelle: We are.
• 0:55
  Danyelle: I am I'm really excited.
• 0:58
  Danyelle: I feel like we are the only two who can make this episode.
• 1:03
  Michelle: I mean, not in the world, but not in the world, but we're unique.
• 1:06
  Danyelle: We are unique.
• 1:08
  Danyelle: And I feel like cross-racial friendships require ongoing labor.
• 1:15
  Danyelle: It is not a burden.
• 1:18
  Danyelle: It has been beautiful to expand and learn.
• 1:22
  Michelle: And I think it's important to say off the top, I'm Michelle.
• 1:27
  Michelle: I'm Caucasian.
• 1:29
  Michelle: I'm a white lady.
• 1:30
  Danyelle: I think it's Asian.
• 1:32
  Michelle: I'm Michelle.
• 1:34
  Danyelle: I'm white.
• 1:36
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle.
• 1:37
  Danyelle: White.
• 1:38
  Danyelle: She's not that kind of white.
• 1:40
  Michelle: I'm white.
• 1:42
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle.
• 1:43
  Danyelle: I'm black.
• 1:44
  Michelle: Just in case you don't know us visually and you're listening in to set the scene for this conversation about race.
• 1:52
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 1:52
  Michelle: And you're right.
• 1:53
  Michelle: What makes it unique is not only that we're friends, but the longevity of moving from our teenage years into adulthood and also approaching it through the lens of a therapist and a coach.
• 2:09
  Danyelle: Yes.
• 2:10
  Danyelle: I mean, so many layers.
• 2:12
  Danyelle: And yeah, we're gonna get into it today.
• 2:15
  Danyelle: I want to start with just the acknowledgement that cross-racial friendships are labor.
• 2:23
  Danyelle: It takes work.
• 2:25
  Danyelle: It's not a burden, but it is a form of love to show up in reciprocity, in learning.
• 2:35
  Danyelle: It's not just about navigating your blind spots.
• 2:40
  Danyelle: It's about for us, it has been about growing together and learning and really becoming more of ourselves and being able to hold each other in that.
• 2:55
  Michelle: There's also this piece.
• 2:57
  Michelle: This is coming up for me right now.
• 3:00
  Michelle: There's this piece that feels like there's a spirituality to it.
• 3:06
  Michelle: And I know that for you in particular, being connected to your ancestors, I think that means both the richness of culture and also some of the pain.
• 3:20
  Michelle: And for me, also being connected to sometimes shame, uh understanding of privilege, there are these layers.
• 3:31
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 3:31
  Danyelle: And I think it's important to name that after 26 years, we both have gotten it wrong at different times.
• 3:38
  Danyelle: We are absolutely in a place where we've had to unlearn things.
• 3:44
  Danyelle: We talked about in episode one where we met, and we grew up in, you know, Pleasantville.
• 3:54
  unknown: Yeah.
• 3:55
  Michelle: Or maybe like Wisteria Lane.
• 3:58
  Danyelle: You know what?
• 3:58
  Danyelle: You're right, you're right, you're right.
• 4:00
  Danyelle: Some desperate housewives.
• 4:00
  Danyelle: Um, I was gonna say, shout out to Desperate Housewives.
• 4:03
  Danyelle: I know.
• 4:04
  Danyelle: Um, I just I think it's important to kind of start with that frame of where we grew up and when really socially locate us in that moment of, you know, Marin County was the seventh richest county in the United States when we were growing up.
• 4:23
  Danyelle: The poverty line was$75,000.
• 4:26
  Danyelle: Oh my god.
• 4:27
  Danyelle: Um, 84% of people living there were white, under 3% of people were black.
• 4:34
  Danyelle: Just those alone.
• 4:38
  Danyelle: In the 90s when uh colorblindness was the leading approach to race, right?
• 4:48
  Danyelle: I still sometimes struggle to describe people because of how ingrained it was in my head growing up to not name the race of somebody.
• 5:01
  Michelle: I think our parents' generation, maybe you don't experience this as much because your parents are black, but there's a bit of a like, I'm not even gonna say she's black.
• 5:14
  Michelle: Like it's a dirty word.
• 5:15
  Michelle: It's a dirty word to describe somebody's skin color.
• 5:19
  Michelle: And we've talked about this in that we both were raised in this way, and it was intended to be this keeping everyone equal, that that makes us equal, that I'm not going to judge you by the color of your skin, which while we understand the sentiment, obviously there's been some evolution since there, and it's not about equality, it's about equity.
• 5:44
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 5:45
  Michelle: I do want to say as we continue the conversation about race that this is not a race 101.
• 5:52
  Michelle: This is very much our story and how we've navigated it as friends.
• 5:58
  Michelle: And hopefully you learn more about us.
• 6:03
  Michelle: You also get to pick up not only how you might approach race or what you might consider you're holding on to around race when you look around at your friend circle, but also a continuation of how to have difficult conversations.
• 6:18
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 6:23
  Danyelle: Consistently, Marin is ranked the most racially disparate county in all of California.
• 6:30
  Michelle: That's wild, but does not surprise me.
• 6:32
  Danyelle: Not at all.
• 6:32
  Danyelle: And you know, understanding that it's not just the least diverse, it is the most unequal across life expectancy, health, housing, wealth, graduation rates, and incarceration rates.
• 6:49
  Danyelle: People of color in Marin County disproportionately have it harder.
• 6:56
  Michelle: And it's interesting that you bring that up because I think it's part of maybe what warped my own perception and understanding of race.
• 7:07
  Michelle: I think there was the beauty of the fact that we grew up together.
• 7:11
  Michelle: And so this sort of question of what makes us different wasn't a thing because I only just felt more sameness.
• 7:20
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 7:20
  Michelle: But because a number of our black friends lived in Section 8 housing, shout out to the Hilarita, and I really related to some of that lifestyle that I saw, or some of those challenges that I was relating more to class than I was to race, but I was really conflating them or merging them together.
• 7:43
  Danyelle: And I would say I was in a lot of ways too.
• 7:47
  Danyelle: You know, I grew up in Cornamadera, Larkspur.
• 7:50
  Danyelle: And then when my parents separated, my mom moved to Sonoma County and my dad moved to Green Bay.
• 7:57
  Danyelle: And interestingly enough, I wasn't around a lot of black people.
• 8:01
  Danyelle: So what made me feel closeness to other people was class.
• 8:06
  Danyelle: It wasn't race because it was inaccessible.
• 8:13
  Danyelle: And I was raised during a time when respectability politics was very loud in my household.
• 8:21
  Danyelle: Um, I use the line be a be a good Negro and good things will happen to you.
• 8:27
  Danyelle: That was very much the sentiment in my household.
• 8:30
  Danyelle: And so being raised to assimilate, to align with the dominant culture was really important for my family.
• 8:40
  Danyelle: Both my parents moved to California in 1980.
• 8:43
  Danyelle: And so being in Northern California for the first time without any family, it was safety.
• 8:49
  Danyelle: It was important to find a place where they could raise children and be able to feel safe in their community.
• 8:58
  Danyelle: I think what also came from that is definitely my own internalized anti-blackness.
• 9:04
  Danyelle: And I think it is important to name as a part of my unlearning and my growing that the racism in the 90s permeated my body.
• 9:15
  Danyelle: You know, Cops was a primetime TV show.
• 9:19
  Danyelle: You know, is it was how I understood life.
• 9:22
  Danyelle: And moving away from my blackness was something that was very encouraged.
• 9:27
  Danyelle: And so I wasn't raised to love my blackness.
• 9:30
  Danyelle: I wasn't raised to love the fact that I was black.
• 9:34
  Danyelle: That was learned, that came later.
• 9:36
  Danyelle: And I think in that there was a lot of times where we both were unlearning together.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 9:44
  Danyelle: And I don't ever think it was this like switch.
• 9:48
  Danyelle: It was definitely gradual.
• 9:50
  Danyelle: And it allowed me to have the space to understand, develop the language, and then be able to share that with you.
• 9:59
  Michelle: I love so much of this conversation because I'm getting to go back and forth between our upbringing in Marin and then now how we get to move through life together as adults.
• 10:09
  Michelle: Returning back to this idea of confluence, of race and class in Marin County, the picture that I had in my mind, or that I was sort of raised to uphold as the ideal, was a very thin, athletic white woman with blonde hair.
• 10:28
  Michelle: Yes.
• 10:28
  Michelle: And so while I am also a white woman, as I was moving into my, you know, post-puberty body, couldn't identify with that person, either from a wealth perspective or from a body type perspective.
• 10:46
  Michelle: And so then when you start to see black culture and you're going, I love this music, I have a body that is more like these women.
• 10:55
  Michelle: Um, I'm driving a yellow 1985 Cadillac Coupe de Ville that we picked up in the canal because there was a program in California where you could get a car for 500 bucks.
• 11:06
  Michelle: So there were things that through the lens of culture in the 90s and early 2000s were presented to me as what blackness was.
• 11:14
  Michelle: It was body celebration, class, and culture that I both enjoyed and sometimes identified with.
• 11:22
  Michelle: And I think that that reinforced our friendship.
• 11:27
  Michelle: And it's where I made a lot of early mistakes that I look back on and not only cringe at, but also we've had to do some work.
• 11:38
  Michelle: And I've had the opportunity, thankfully, to do some repair around like, wow, I really got that wrong.
• 11:45
  Michelle: And I think a big part of that is being willing to acknowledge the shame that exists around race and around how we learn it.
• 11:57
  Michelle: And just because I didn't mean harm doesn't mean that there wasn't harm.
• 12:02
  Michelle: And that as white folks in Marin County, that wasn't a key part of the conversations that any of us were having or encouraged to have.
• 12:14
  Michelle: No, it doesn't mean that it's not my responsibility to learn.
• 12:20
  Danyelle: Thank you.
• 12:21
  Michelle: Thank you for sticking with me.
• 12:24
  Danyelle: And I think it is important to continue to say, like, I I was learning too, you know, and and I do think it would it would have felt very different if I was, if I hadn't been raised in the same place with the same nuanced understanding of the world, being able to grow individually and then invite you into that conversation has been incredibly, I mean, it's just very powerful.
• 12:55
  Danyelle: It's been incredibly powerful to name things in the past and in the present when I get it wrong, when I've gotten it wrong, and when I have to invite you into that as well.
• 13:09
  Danyelle: And us being able to swim in that muck sometimes and come out and say, Yeah, we get to try again.
• 13:17
  Danyelle: This is worth it.
• 13:18
  Danyelle: This relationship is worth it.
• 13:20
  Michelle: That part, and that's where I'm so grateful for our friendship.
• 13:26
  Michelle: I don't think I always uphold race and even the top few things that I consider.
• 13:32
  Michelle: And our friendship has allowed me to be invited into repair, deeper learning and responsibility.
• 13:40
  Michelle: And I hope that also through my own acknowledgement and learning and repair that it's offering some healing as well.
• 13:50
  Michelle: Because from what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of people in black and brown bodies don't always get the opportunity to say, hey, that really hurt me, you know, and or that didn't land right, or could you do a little work?
• 14:06
  Michelle: And so it becomes your work then to either hold on to it or to decide you no longer want to participate in that relationship, but through our closeness and willingness to talk through the hard things, both of us get to come out ahead.
• 14:27
  Danyelle: Yeah, I think.
• 14:28
  Danyelle: Well, and I think what you're speaking to is the difference between like performative allyship and actual solidarity, where it isn't just this, like, oh, I'm sorry I said something indirectly or directly racist.
• 14:43
  Danyelle: It's like, pause, hold space, understand.
• 14:46
  Danyelle: I'm gonna read a book, I'm gonna listen to a podcast, I'm gonna go talk to my therapist about this.
• 14:51
  Danyelle: You don't have to hold this.
• 14:53
  Danyelle: And it is the layers of creating that space in our relationship for the work that you need to do, for the work that I need to do, and then the work we do together.
• 15:04
  Danyelle: And I think to your point, that is what has made it available for us to keep coming back.
• 15:12
  Michelle: One of the things that I want to call out is that again, for people of color in the US, this is an experience that you're having from birth and navigating from birth, whether you choose to or not.
• 15:26
  Michelle: For a lot of white folks like me, it was not something that at least I really started to address or approach until COVID.
• 15:38
  Michelle: And I want to say that Black Lives Matter, I think, has been around since 2013 or 14, but it really came to the surface after the murder of George Floyd.
• 15:48
  Michelle: And it was this unique cultural moment where we're all at home, we're not doing a lot.
• 15:54
  Michelle: I'm also just gave birth and breastfeeding, looking at my phone all the time.
• 15:59
  Michelle: And so you couldn't not be a part of the conversation anymore.
• 16:04
  Michelle: It wasn't enough just to be an ally.
• 16:09
  Michelle: And I think that it was the start of a pivot point for us in terms of revisiting past harms, things from the past, and also how we wanted to move forward together.
• 16:24
  Michelle: It wasn't so much like, let's sit down and start to air grievances, but it started to give us language in our relationship and also this shared cultural moment to talk about race and being best friends wasn't enough.
• 16:39
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 16:40
  Danyelle: Well, and I think for me, it it opened the door to have those conversations.
• 16:45
  Danyelle: I was having those conversations at that point with other folks of color in my community and my friend group.
• 16:53
  Danyelle: Most of my friends were white.
• 16:55
  Danyelle: And I wasn't having those conversations really ever.
• 16:59
  Danyelle: It wasn't accessible.
• 17:01
  Danyelle: And so I think what you're speaking to, you know, 2020 opened that door and it gave space, the slowness of the time gave people the space to hold what I and many others had been holding forever.
• 17:23
  Danyelle: Forever.
• 17:39
  Michelle: But I think it's important to say that you can be someone like me who has a best friend who's black and who really means well and still fuck it up and still say some crazy stuff.
• 17:50
  Michelle: And one of the first things that you brought to me was that growing up I had said that I'm blacker than you for whatever my reasoning was.
• 18:00
  Michelle: Maybe I knew more rap songs or, you know, whatever, whatever I had said in the past, but there's so much harm in that that can be received from language like that.
• 18:13
  Michelle: And it's something that frankly I don't even remember saying, but I'm like, yeah, that sounds about right.
• 18:18
  Michelle: That I was able to hear and not be defensive about.
• 18:22
  Michelle: It's led to such full conversation around how we were both experiencing race when we weren't talking about it.
• 18:29
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 18:30
  Danyelle: And I I appreciate you naming that as, you know, a one of the moments that we did talk about and and repair around.
• 18:40
  Danyelle: I think it's it's interesting.
• 18:42
  Danyelle: I'm like, I'm wanting to say like it's funny and not funny ha ha, but like, yeah, that was common.
• 18:50
  Danyelle: The term of, you know, the whitest black girl we know, or you're only black in booty, but not in self.
• 18:59
  Danyelle: And these tropes, these labels that were given to me externally absolutely hurt, but I didn't have anywhere to put that.
• 19:08
  Danyelle: I was absolutely told to assimilate, to be a good black person.
• 19:15
  Danyelle: And in my head, being a black, a good black person didn't include saying, ouch, or that didn't feel good in my body.
• 19:22
  Danyelle: I did not have that language.
• 19:24
  Danyelle: I know I laughed at those jokes.
• 19:27
  Danyelle: I know I was like, probably, because what do you do with that when you're in your teens?
• 19:35
  Danyelle: And that is the environment I grew up in.
• 19:37
  Danyelle: I grew up and became a product of my environment, which was black people in Marin live in Marin City.
• 19:45
  Danyelle: Those black people are different than me because we act right.
• 19:51
  Danyelle: That was that was very real because I had access to these other things.
• 19:56
  Danyelle: And so in being able to have these conversations with you, there's so much deep healing because there is these, there are these moments of being like, yeah, that that's a part of, you know, that's a part of my story, and never getting to heal that.
• 20:12
  Danyelle: And because we've been friends for so long, there is this sending that energy back to younger me, who held so much of that.
• 20:21
  Danyelle: And that is one story, that is one person, you know.
• 20:25
  Danyelle: I uh younger me carries so many stories.
• 20:28
  Danyelle: And to be able to sit with that was fucked up.
• 20:33
  Danyelle: Yeah, that wasn't okay.
• 20:35
  Danyelle: And having a white person, having a friend say that to me, so incredibly healing.
• 20:41
  Danyelle: It's validating years later to be able to be like, oh yeah, huh?
• 20:46
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 20:47
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 20:48
  Michelle: And I think it's interesting because you're talking about assimilation.
• 20:52
  Michelle: And I think that in some ways, that's what any kid wants is to belong and to fit in.
• 20:58
  Michelle: And it's part of what we talked about in our introduction episode was that there was this deep othering that we were both experiencing, and that when you look at old TV shows or movies, or frankly, even nowadays, if you're looking at a poor neighborhood, everybody is poor.
• 21:17
  Michelle: And there's this camaraderie that comes with that.
• 21:20
  Michelle: Um, having said that, what I didn't understand at that point because I well, yeah, I didn't have the language for it.
• 21:27
  Michelle: And also I was experiencing the world through a very, as teenagers do, egocentric point of view was that I had a privilege that you didn't.
• 21:37
  Michelle: And that I wasn't followed around in stores or pulled over nearly as often, although the caddy did get some attention in Marin County, whether I liked it or not.
• 21:48
  Michelle: Um, but that I I didn't have the word for privilege yet, nor was it front of mind, like I couldn't understand it in the way that I do now.
• 21:57
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 21:57
  Michelle: I was just looking for.
• 22:00
  Michelle: Those points of connection.
• 22:01
  Michelle: And what I will say now, as a part of this healing conversation that we've had, is part of my work is to immerse myself in your world as much as I can.
• 22:18
  Michelle: I have had the privilege over the years of getting to do your hair.
• 22:22
  Michelle: And I didn't even realize how special or unique that was at the time.
• 22:26
  Michelle: It was just we're best friends and I'm going to do your hair.
• 22:29
  Michelle: But I now also follow black hair artists and learn about the products and make it a point when I do your makeup.
• 22:54
  Michelle: Is it's not enough for me just to witness.
• 22:57
  Michelle: I want to join you in the ways that I can and talk about jealousy and really navigating that in my own body.
• 23:06
  Michelle: There are spaces that I cannot follow you.
• 23:09
  Michelle: And that's true for any friendship, I think, but it's one thing that we've named and that I've shifted from jealousy into celebration.
• 23:23
  Michelle: That it's not that I don't want to, it's that I acknowledge that that's not a space for me always, but I can still, yeah, celebrate you.
• 23:32
  Michelle: And that is how I get to show up in friendship.
• 23:34
  Michelle: So just sharing that that's part of my work now in being a good friend to you, hopefully in all of the ways, but also through the lens of race.
• 23:45
  Danyelle: And I just have to like go back to something you said that is that will probably always be something deeply moving for me was when you asked to do my hair.
• 23:58
  Danyelle: And not like, can I touch your hair?
• 24:00
  Danyelle: Like, hey girl, I've been watching some YouTube tutorials, and um, it's something that I don't take that lightly.
• 24:10
  Danyelle: Like, I my hair was such a topic of conversation for all of my life.
• 24:15
  Danyelle: I never wanted anybody to like even know I had hair.
• 24:19
  Danyelle: And you did.
• 24:20
  Danyelle: You were like, and this and this, and I've got these things, and you know, my Instagram is very confused, by the way.
• 24:27
  Michelle: I get a lot of content where I'm like, I know this is not for me, but I I was invited to the cookouts, so deal with it.
• 24:36
  Michelle: No, it because it's my way of staying connected in conversation, so that it's also acknowledging that you get to lean into pride and celebration of your race more now than you ever got to growing up.
• 24:52
  Michelle: And so I want to like join you in the ways that I can.
• 24:54
  Danyelle: And I think that is exactly it because so much of my identity, my black identity was not celebrated to have a friend, knowing that other black people in Marin were just not, there was just not many of us, having you as a friend who then became deeply connected to, there's like a willingness and an openness.
• 25:20
  Danyelle: It's again, it's it's like showing up, it's solidarity, it's celebration.
• 25:25
  Danyelle: It makes a really big difference in safety, in my own expression of blackness, to be able to be more of like a quirky, weird, witchy black chick.
• 25:35
  Danyelle: Like that's that's amazing.
• 25:37
  Danyelle: And to and for me to own it first and then own it so much that you can see who I am, that I'm not being put in a box or I'm not acting white or or performing.
• 25:50
  Danyelle: This is this is me, this is my blackness, this is how I see myself, and to be seen and held in that is really special and it's unique.
• 25:59
  Michelle: I think that's a beautiful way of putting the gift that we give each other is that we continue to be more embodied, and it's so much easier to feel embodied when it can be reflected back to you through friendship or through any relationship.
• 26:15
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 26:16
  Michelle: And you spoke about safety, and I take it for granted that we're in this space, but maybe it's a good opportunity to talk about psychological safety.
• 26:26
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 26:27
  Michelle: And um, even though we've been kumbayaing about how well it's been going, I do want to offer at least one other moment where we've had to approach this together because I think it, yeah, I think it's important to the conversation.
• 26:40
  Danyelle: Yeah, absolutely.
• 26:41
  Danyelle: As we were prepping for this episode, I'd actually been sitting with what is what is the story that we bring in the stories, you know, and um I was doing the dishes after sitting with that question, and it immediately came to me around this time, maybe three or four years ago, about four years ago now.
• 27:05
  Danyelle: So psychological safety is something, again, right, that we've learned about through the work that we do individually, and then being able to bring that into our relationship.
• 27:16
  Danyelle: Psychological safety is the ability to feel safe in your body enough to know that you can say a thing, do a thing, that you can walk safely in the streets, that you can park your car and get out and get safely into your home, that there's grocery stores, that there are the ability for you to navigate your day-to-day in a way that feels safe.
• 27:44
  Danyelle: That's how I think about it.
• 27:45
  Danyelle: And I and I think, you know, it's interesting because Marin is very safe.
• 27:51
  Danyelle: So very safe.
• 27:53
  Danyelle: And when I when I talk about my experience in Marin, I often talk about it as a very violent situation.
• 28:01
  Danyelle: Um, it was violent to my body and not physically violent, but I absolutely had very little psychological safety.
• 28:09
  Michelle: And just microaggression, after microaggression, and things that you're experiencing alone because I'm like, because it's not happening to me.
• 28:21
  Michelle: So I wasn't followed in a store and I'm not pulled over all the time.
• 28:24
  Danyelle: So well, and I think right, like, yes, it is that it is absolutely that and overt aggression.
• 28:31
  Danyelle: And I was gonna say, like, and the like in your face, yeah, you know, just racism.
• 28:36
  Danyelle: You can't go make yours anything of yourself or yeah.
• 28:41
  Danyelle: Sorry.
• 28:42
  Danyelle: No, no, not, but like, right, like I think there are two things that are coming to mind.
• 28:46
  Danyelle: One of the things that Michelle talks about uh often is like being invited to go on vacation with friends and as like a as a perk, right?
• 28:56
  Danyelle: Like we grew up, my family did go on vacations, but not like not like people in Mirengo on vacation.
• 29:03
  Danyelle: And no, I didn't ever get invited to go on vacation with people to Hawaii, I went to Mexico, yeah.
• 29:10
  Danyelle: You know, it's it there are these these differences that come up and again, so many of your experiences where I thought we were walking so hand in hand, and in many ways we still were.
• 29:24
  Michelle: There was a whole host of other experiences that I wasn't having that I only then learned about later.
• 29:31
  Danyelle: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:32
  Danyelle: And I think what a what a privilege, what an honor to be able to get to share that for both of us.
• 29:40
  Danyelle: Yes, that is healing for both of us, and as somebody who is deeply spiritual, that is also healing for the lineages, right?
• 29:46
  Danyelle: That is healing for all of the folks in my lineage who didn't get to have these conversations.
• 29:52
  Danyelle: That is healing for your lineage, backwards and forwards of like, hey, don't be racist.
• 29:58
  Danyelle: You know, like it is so much more than just, hey, that was hurtful.
• 30:05
  Danyelle: I feel healed in this, or I feel, you know, better in this moment.
• 30:08
  Danyelle: You are learning in this moment, and we get to continue to walk together.
• 30:12
  Danyelle: For me, it goes deeper than that.
• 30:14
  Michelle: And it's being witnessed, it's starting to say, like, yes, we were walking together during this time, but let me pull back the layers and show you more of what was happening that I either was dissociating from or didn't have language to describe, or maybe you didn't 100% realize that I wasn't experiencing the world in this in similar ways.
• 30:35
  Michelle: So, with that being said, we've talked a lot about tools and ways that we've approached this conversation, but I think it's important to go back to recent years where we really started to dig into actually encouraging you to go back and listen to the nonviolent communication episode, which helps give us a framework.
• 30:56
  Danyelle: But yeah, the story that came to mind for this episode was your birthday a few years ago.
• 31:04
  Danyelle: I had made a really flippant comment to you.
• 31:08
  Danyelle: I had just started dating a new partner who's trans and Latine, and we were going to your birthday party together.
• 31:17
  Danyelle: And earlier in that day, we had been at a baby shower.
• 31:21
  Danyelle: That was, you know, I don't think there was a white person there.
• 31:25
  Danyelle: And it was a very different experience than what your birthday party was going to be.
• 31:33
  Danyelle: And as we were driving, I had said to him, like, hey, I just want to let you know this is, you know, there's just gonna be a lot of white people here.
• 31:42
  Danyelle: And this, the the flippant comment that I made to you was like, Oh my god, I feel I felt like I had to warn my partner about the space we were walking into, specifically because we were just coming from this other space that was frankly the complete opposite.
• 32:02
  Danyelle: And um a part of that was like naming safety for him and saying, Hey, we might be the only people of color in the room.
• 32:13
  Danyelle: Naming, you know, pre the last few years, I have had a lot of white people in my life, and I've made a lot of explicit effort to change the way that my friend group looks.
• 32:28
  Danyelle: And so when I said it to you, I was kind of saying it in this way of hmm, yeah, this is a real thing, and look how different the party is.
• 32:41
  Danyelle: And it ended up being a really harsh moment for our relationship.
• 32:47
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 32:48
  Michelle: And it and starting my response by saying many things can be true.
• 32:54
  Michelle: And I think what's the important lens that I want to focus on here is about race and how that's that conversation is received and how we didn't just end it there, that we kept it going, and also that the way you communicate a thing can make a difference.
• 33:11
  Michelle: Um, you know, so just just getting that out of the way, like at my birthday party, where I can't change anything, where we've had a few drinks, maybe we could have chosen a different location.
• 33:23
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 33:24
  Michelle: Having said that, um time and place, I immediately felt deep shame because what what we ended up discussing and what I said to you is I don't want to create spaces where you don't want to be.
• 33:38
  Michelle: You are my best friend, you are one of two people that I care is there.
• 33:43
  Michelle: And so in that moment, it didn't go well.
• 33:47
  Michelle: And I cried and I felt embarrassed, I felt angry, I felt hurt that you wanted to leave or that you felt like you had to warn your partner.
• 33:57
  Michelle: And we did make an effort to make a date to continue the conversation.
• 34:04
  Michelle: You tapped into that compassionate communication framework and were able to offer to me when I come to a lot of these spaces that you curate, they're full of white cis men andor white-bodied individuals.
• 34:23
  Michelle: And I don't always feel safe or welcome.
• 34:26
  Michelle: There are particular people who are who are particularly triggering, and I want you to know that part of the sort of action that I take around showing up in these spaces is to offer a warning to my partner who may also feel that way.
• 34:45
  Michelle: And even though it's hard to hear, it's so important because again, it's that reintroduction of privilege that you've rarely invited me into spaces where I'm the only white person and we didn't grow up in spaces like that.
• 35:01
  Michelle: So I don't need to like quote unquote worry in that way or sort of consider my surroundings in that way.
• 35:07
  Michelle: And being able-bodied, very standard-looking white woman, I get to navigate the world I'm straight presenting.
• 35:17
  Michelle: And so it's not often that I'm othered physically.
• 35:21
  Michelle: And so even though it was still hard to hear, the way that you communicated it was less you're doing something wrong and I'm mad at you, and more I'm inviting you into my experience to see it through my eyes.
• 35:36
  Michelle: And I'm not even sure that you were asking anything of me.
• 35:39
  Michelle: You were just letting me know.
• 35:41
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 35:42
  Michelle: I took it a step further and we kind of talked about.
• 35:46
  Michelle: I said, would it be helpful if I tell you who's going to be at the party or the gathering before you come next time?
• 35:53
  Michelle: And then you can decide.
• 35:55
  Michelle: And it was during that time that we also sort of made this agreement that you were allowed to make decisions based on your safety or comfort, and that because we've had this conversation, I can then understand the decision-making process.
• 36:10
  Michelle: And it's not about me or because you don't want to spend time with me.
• 36:13
  Michelle: It's because that might not be the right space.
• 36:16
  Michelle: And then that opened the door to like, what are spaces that we both feel really good in?
• 36:21
  Michelle: And how can we maybe around my birthday do something that's just us or that feels like we'll both find joy together versus what has maybe happened historically.
• 36:36
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 36:37
  Danyelle: I think what we talked about too was like this was the first time that we had a conversation in real time.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:45
  Danyelle: A lot of our healing up into this point had been things that had happened in the past and both things that have hadn't happened to me and both things that you were unlearning that, you know, there was harm caused.
• 36:56
  Danyelle: And this was the first time really ever in our friendship that we experienced this, like, oh, it's happening today.
• 37:02
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 37:03
  Danyelle: Which was different.
• 37:04
  Danyelle: It was very different.
• 37:05
  Danyelle: And the thing that I realized in saying it to you, and I go back to you, like it felt like such a flippant comment because I was like, girl, do you not see the spaces you invite me into?
• 37:18
  Danyelle: And you know, I think for me, that was the also the pause moment of like, oh yeah, we are very integrated into each other's lives.
• 37:28
  Danyelle: And it's not something that we talk about.
• 37:32
  Danyelle: And I don't think that's I think that's neutral in in the sense of I didn't feel quote unquote bad, right?
• 37:39
  Danyelle: It wasn't like I was going and I felt unsafe.
• 37:43
  Danyelle: There were times I didn't, I don't like the human.
• 37:46
  Danyelle: Exactly.
• 37:46
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 37:47
  Danyelle: And I realized like, oh shit, like we aren't having these conversations.
• 37:52
  Michelle: And it's a relearning because we've been in white spaces our entire life.
• 37:58
  Michelle: So to your point, why would I all of a sudden wake up exactly unless you were inviting me in?
• 38:04
  Michelle: And what I appreciate about the way that we move forward together, that feels fair, is that it's not only your responsibility to navigate that, that I can help I can't walk in your shoes, I won't experience what you experience, but I can help you navigate the stress of what am I about to walk into, or that even just the consideration, the additional emotional labor that comes with that by participating and offering what I can.
• 38:32
  Michelle: Yeah, which is that I cannot always curate a perfectly curate of space, but I can tell you in advance what you're walking into, and then you get to choose.
• 38:39
  Danyelle: And that has been huge.
• 38:41
  Danyelle: And I will go so far to say you have made your own choices about the people that you are around.
• 38:47
  Danyelle: And like that, that to me, I'm like getting energy uh explosions in my body.
• 38:56
  Danyelle: When you name, hey, I want to let you know this is this is a person that I'm no longer in community with because of what you've said.
• 39:05
  Danyelle: Holy what?
• 39:06
  Danyelle: Like, wow, like that again, right?
• 39:10
  Danyelle: Solidarity.
• 39:11
  Danyelle: It's not just showing up and needing to see it and experience it.
• 39:16
  Danyelle: And oh, well, maybe they just don't know.
• 39:19
  Danyelle: It's like, oh heard, let's be done here.
• 39:23
  Danyelle: Yeah, that was is incredibly that's why I keep showing up because it's not that you are just reading a book or listening to a podcast.
• 39:34
  Danyelle: Right.
• 39:35
  Danyelle: You are in action hearing my experiences, hearing how that impacts me, and making decisions based on that to make me feel safer, to make me feel more welcome.
• 39:47
  Danyelle: It's a really big deal.
• 39:50
  Michelle: Thank you.
• 39:51
  Michelle: It's I receive that.
• 39:52
  Michelle: It feels hard to accept it's hard to accept a compliment, period, sometimes, but also because it feels in some ways like the bare minimum.
• 40:02
  Michelle: It is easier when the given is us.
• 40:08
  Michelle: You know, like that needs to be, I need you to be there.
• 40:11
  Michelle: So let's make it safe and enjoyable for for us.
• 40:16
  Danyelle: Yeah, you know, that was new for me.
• 40:21
  Danyelle: That wasn't something that I had experienced.
• 40:25
  Danyelle: And I do think the story that we shared planted some seeds for our relationship that really have allowed me to show up in my even more full, even more authentic, even more at my center, in my center, because you showed up, because you said, I hear you.
• 40:49
  Danyelle: And I think we can talk about it as like the bare minimum, and as somebody who's lived in a black body for 40 one years, it's not always what is offered.
• 40:59
  Danyelle: It's actually what is often not offered from from my experience, right?
• 41:04
  Danyelle: And I think it's important to name that this is this is one story.
• 41:08
  Danyelle: This is one couple of friends that one black people are not a monolith.
• 41:14
  Danyelle: This is not a story of of all the black people and all the interracial friendships in the world.
• 41:20
  Danyelle: But I do think it's really important to name I've experienced significantly more harm than the evolution that we've been able to create, to co-create together.
• 41:34
  Danyelle: And that does have to do with the work that you have done, that you are committed to do.
• 41:39
  Michelle: One of the things that I would like to offer to anyone out there who is navigating these kinds of conversations or an interracial friendship and being on uh, I suppose, is it just white folks?
• 41:53
  Michelle: I mean, it could be more than that.
• 41:55
  Michelle: Absolutely.
• 41:56
  Michelle: Um, anyone who's sort of sitting in my seat to do the work to be able to hold space because we are sometimes carrying the shame of our ancestors, and it can, I think that's where a lot of white people struggle.
• 42:15
  Michelle: I'm saying white people just because that's my experience.
• 42:18
  Michelle: It's where a lot of white people struggle as well.
• 42:20
  Michelle: I didn't do it.
• 42:22
  Michelle: And we have the privilege and benefit of that legacy, whether we asked for it or not.
• 42:28
  Michelle: The whole structure of policing is centered around race system, the whole structure of our society, capitalism, the nine to five, is all built on black and brown bodies being used for labor.
• 42:42
  Michelle: And so we live in it.
• 42:46
  Michelle: Whether you ask for it or not, whether you personally are responsible, we get to offer healing, we get to learn, and we get to listen.
• 42:55
  Michelle: And we don't always get it or deserve the like grace of the conversation.
• 43:01
  Michelle: Not every person wants to be an interracial friendship or build communities that are more diverse, and that gets to be okay.
• 43:09
  Michelle: And so I feel like that's part of the reason why I'm saying I feel grateful that I've been able to do your hair and your makeup and to have these hard conversations with you because it's not a given, you're offering that to me.
• 43:26
  Michelle: And so thank you for being willing to like bring me along and also to allow for this to be a space of healing, but again, to offer to anyone sitting in my seat that you don't just deserve it because you want it.
• 43:42
  Michelle: You can still do the work, you can still show up.
• 43:45
  Michelle: And I think that building the body to where someone else can be mad, frustrated, closed off, whatever their experience is, and you can either hold space for that or allow them to have that experience and take it in.
• 44:00
  Michelle: From a I'm curious, I'm open, I'm learning, I'm asking questions, but also know that you may not always take it on.
• 44:09
  Michelle: Because you have to protect yourself as well and your nervous system to be able to be a person that can hold that space.
• 44:16
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 44:16
  Danyelle: Well, and I think what you're speaking to is how to have these conversations, right?
• 44:23
  Danyelle: Being dysregulated at your birthday trying to solve this problem was not the time for us to solve that conflict, you know?
• 44:30
  Danyelle: And you have to take care of yourself in that.
• 44:33
  Danyelle: And I that does become very individual.
• 44:36
  Danyelle: And one of the things that I feel we do really well is give each other that space.
• 44:43
  Danyelle: We did try to work that out.
• 44:45
  Danyelle: It didn't go well.
• 44:46
  Danyelle: And then we were able to come back together and have a really robust conversation about these dynamics.
• 44:55
  Danyelle: And as we've said in our episodes, we do come out stronger every time.
• 45:00
  Danyelle: Again, why this podcast is so important because we do understand when there is the investment you're able to grow, to learn, to unlearn, to expand.
• 45:16
  Danyelle: Unlearn.
• 45:23
  Danyelle: That was it was robust.
• 45:25
  Michelle: Juicy.
• 45:26
  Michelle: Juicy.
• 45:27
  Danyelle: I love that word.
• 45:28
  Danyelle: So good.
• 45:28
  Danyelle: I'm curious what bubbled up for you?
• 45:32
  Danyelle: What was the thing that maybe cracked you open or something that you're just sitting with?
• 45:38
  Michelle: I just got the chills as you said that.
• 45:40
  Michelle: I think it's just that we're really special.
• 45:46
  Michelle: You know, as cheesy as that sounds, that it's not just a given that we would be where we are today across all that we've been dealt and faced together.
• 46:00
  Michelle: And it's a real affirmation of the sort of living legacy of growth that we get to offer because of some of the challenges we've been through.
• 46:14
  Michelle: And I am glad to be in a place where, don't get me wrong, it feels very vulnerable to name the things that I said as a young person, but that many things can be true and I can grow from that and use that as example as that growth.
• 46:32
  Michelle: I feel really proud of us.
• 46:33
  Danyelle: So proud of us.
• 46:35
  Danyelle: Because there is a world in which we don't make it past 17, you know, right?
• 46:41
  Danyelle: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 46:43
  Danyelle: I um hear that and receive that and hold that so deeply for us.
• 46:50
  Danyelle: I think for me, it's having this conversation so explicitly.
• 46:57
  Danyelle: Just the like getting to this place in the conversation and being like, oh yeah, that is like a beautiful thread woven through our tapestry that we continue to weave, right?
• 47:11
  Danyelle: We are continue to grow in these ways.
• 47:14
  Danyelle: And what really continues to kind of bubble up, or what feels really present is yeah, it's special.
• 47:29
  Danyelle: You're I mean, yeah, like it is totally um, it is very, very special.
• 47:38
  Danyelle: And you know, it's you, right?
• 47:42
  Danyelle: Like, not I I choose you.
• 47:45
  Danyelle: I that's what I mean.
• 47:47
  Danyelle: Yes, it is you and the work and all the things, but like I choose you, and there's a reason for that.
• 47:52
  Danyelle: As you said, both things can be true.
• 47:54
  Danyelle: We can create cause harm and come back from that.
• 47:58
  Danyelle: And I will tell you, there are many people who I called friends for many years who never did.
• 48:07
  Danyelle: And while and while, you know, that's for them to unpack in their own worlds, I choose you.
• 48:21
  Michelle: I love that.
• 48:23
  Michelle: I feel like I always say that.
• 48:24
  Michelle: I love that.
• 48:25
  Danyelle: I say that too.
• 48:27
  Michelle: Let's do a card pull.
• 48:29
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 48:38
  Danyelle: Ah, the emperor.
• 48:39
  Danyelle: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 48:40
  Danyelle: And I love this, you know, and I'm using um my mahogany tarot.
• 48:45
  Danyelle: Shout out to the mahogany tarot.
• 48:47
  Danyelle: We got the emperor, and this is a major arcana card.
• 48:51
  Danyelle: So one of the first 22 cards in the tarot deck, and it's big picture, right?
• 48:57
  Danyelle: This isn't the day-to-day, this is lifetimes over over lifetimes, over lifetimes.
• 49:04
  Danyelle: And you know, the thing that's coming up for me about the Emperor in reverse specifically is this like shattering of status quo, shattering of authority, of what it means to command this type of energy, kind of this old style of ruling.
• 49:29
  Danyelle: Emperor energy is very unwavering and demanding of attention, walking in a room, and the energy is like that person is there.
• 49:39
  Danyelle: I think about that as representing, you know, so good, right?
• 49:49
  Danyelle: Like this idea of as I said, there's a world in which we don't make it past, you know, day one.
• 49:58
  Danyelle: And to me, this emperor in reverse is like throwing it all out the window and saying there is a world that's possible, there is room for the love that we create, the love that we continue to expand into that isn't ruled by the olds, the the before times.
• 50:18
  Danyelle: The before times, as you say.
• 50:19
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 50:20
  Michelle: Thank you for that.
• 50:22
  Danyelle: That was beautiful.
• 50:23
  Michelle: So we want to make some offerings.
• 50:27
  Danyelle: I want to say to our black listeners specifically, I hope that you felt moments of feeling heard, seen.
• 50:36
  Danyelle: I really want you to feel held in your non-black and cross-racial relationships.
• 50:43
  Danyelle: And I want you to sit down.
• 50:45
  Danyelle: I want you to take a load off.
• 50:47
  Danyelle: Rest is resistance.
• 50:51
  Danyelle: Being a black person in this country is emotional labor.
• 50:55
  Danyelle: I want you to know that your struggles aren't alone, that I see you.
• 50:59
  Danyelle: And even if our origin stories are different, cross-racial friendships can be really challenging.
• 51:06
  Danyelle: And it's not because of you.
• 51:08
  Michelle: And for our white listeners, do the work.
• 51:13
  Michelle: And I think that will look different for each of you.
• 51:17
  Michelle: For me, it's very much doing my own personal work so that I can hold space and acknowledge my privilege where I'm in a place of privilege because of those who came before me and because of the white patriarchal society we still live in.
• 51:37
  Michelle: And how can I use that as an offering or a position of strength to someone who is not embodied in the way that I am, to be open and aware of the gaps of my knowledge and to be willing to take accountability.
• 51:52
  Michelle: And I wish that for each of you as well, that it is not shameful, that it's an opportunity.
• 51:59
  Michelle: And if you are willing to step into those moments, to be open and curious, to listen, that more doors will open and you get to have richer relationships, a richer tapestry, a more diverse perspective of the world because you're friends with someone who's not exactly the same as you.
• 52:21
  Michelle: You get to expand your lived experience from a different perspective.
• 52:25
  Michelle: And as always, read a book.
• 52:29
  Michelle: We will have some resources.
• 52:32
  Michelle: We'll have some resources and uh thank you for joining us on this difficult conversation.
• 52:37
  Danyelle: Yeah, thank you.
• 52:39
  Danyelle: See you next week.
• 52:39
  Michelle: See you next week.
• 52:43
  Michelle: Crayer mixing.
• 52:45
  Michelle: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 52:49
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at the Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 52:57
  Michelle: Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it.
• 53:00
  Danyelle: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 53:08
  Danyelle: The link is in the show notes.
• 53:10
  Michelle: If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us.
• 53:15
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.