Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / Scaling Your Startup Without Losing Its Soul with Relinde Boerman | Ep. 145

Transcript

Scaling Your Startup Without Losing Its Soul with Relinde Boerman | Ep. 145 · Women Disrupting Tech

0:00
So this is something that is supported by leadership and
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actually, yeah, something that I really had to adjust to because
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it is quite uncommon in the context of recruitment and the
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time pressure that is always, always there.
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It's a a luxury in a way, but it's also difficult when you put
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that aside. Time to hire is not a metric
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that I'm looking at a lot. I I am looking at it, but
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there's other things that that we find more important.
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Hey, welcome back to Women Disrupting Tech and thank you
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for tuning in to Episode 145. I'm your host, dear Kyonukus.
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And on this podcast, we amplify the stories of female founders
0:57
and their investors to help close the funding gap in venture
1:00
capital. The woman you just heard is
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Belinda Bourman, and she said something you don't hear often
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in startup recruiting at Polar Steps.
1:10
They don't optimize for time to hire.
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As a lead recruiter for Polar Steps, Erlinda helped the
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company skill from 20 to nearly 100 employees while preserving
1:20
the culture by staying selective about who they hire.
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During the episode, she shares how this works in practice, why
1:29
and how Polar Steps prioritizes talent density over simply
1:34
adding headcount. How company values are
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translated into real interview conversations and how onboarding
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is structured such that to hires land well and strengthen the
1:46
team. It's a practical conversation
1:49
full of actionable strategies that you can easily apply in
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your startup hiring. So if you want to know how to
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build a team while protecting your company culture as you
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scale, here's my conversation with Linda Bourmand.
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Linda Bourmand, good morning. Good to have you on women
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disrupting tech. Question I always start with is
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how you got into your current job or current position as lead
2:13
recruiter at Polar Steps? All right.
2:16
Well, it is in a way a bit of a funny story because seven years
2:22
ago, more or less, I applied for this role and I got rejected
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actually. And I tried again.
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Yeah, a couple years later. That's about four years ago now.
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Yeah. And luckily second time it
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worked out, but it was me learning first hand how very
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picky porterships can be a very strict with what we, what they
2:45
are looking for. Currently I'm in the role of
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lead recruiter. Yeah.
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And when I was interviewing for this role, Maxi warned me about
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they are being very picky. So if I was sure about this, but
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yeah, I was very committed and very driven to to start and I
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knew I wanted to work for this app.
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I'm an early adapter. So yeah, for me it was a really
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exciting opportunity. And I'm with the company now for
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almost 4 years, started just after the COVID pandemic faded
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away. The company was very small, just
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20 people, just a 3.5 million users at the time.
3:24
Yeah, and and now everything's very different.
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We are now almost 100 people team with almost 20 million
3:30
users worldwide. So that's a bit in short my
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journey and how I ended up in the role where I am today.
3:38
OK cool. Just out of curiosity, why did
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they reject you the first time around?
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At the time they were looking for a very senior and
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experienced technical recruiter and I didn't have that specific
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experience at that time. I did get into that in that
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bridge in between the 1st and the second time applying and the
4:01
second time I was much more suitable for the job and ask,
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but the first time I really wasn't.
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So it was a fair assessment at the time, yeah.
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OK, and and may maybe good for the people who do not know
4:14
parlor steps. What is Parlor Steps and how did
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it grow? So Parlor Steps is a a travel
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app, everything travel related platform from inspiring
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planning, tracking but also reliving travel journeys.
4:33
We are AB to C app and we are a Dutch company.
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So we are based here, We were founded here and we have been
4:42
growing quite a bit over the last couple of years.
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The company is, yeah, we are celebrating our 10 year
4:49
anniversary this year. It started quite slow, but it's
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it grew quite rapidly and we have seen lots of organic
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growth. So lots of enthusiastic
4:57
travellers recommending the app to other travellers.
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That's always good. That's always well this, this
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is, this is really great. We have a huge user base in the
5:07
Netherlands, but we are also now seeing other markets globally
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adopting it enthusiastically. So that's the current journey we
5:14
are on so far. Yeah.
5:17
And now growth is picking up. So 3.5 million news was already
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a lot Dutch B to C app hitting different levels of numbers,
5:29
which is very exciting. Yeah.
5:32
That's and also growth in a in terms of the team.
5:36
Also growth in terms of the team, yes, when I joined it was
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just the 20 people, a handful of developers and and some other
5:43
people there, Co founders and yeah, then you get up to 20
5:46
people fast and now we are almost 100 people.
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That's a very exciting journey. I've been very fortunate to be
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part of the majority of that growth, which has been a great
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experience and it's very, very nice to see where we are now.
6:01
And also, yeah, what is ahead? Definitely.
6:03
OK, so the reason we started talking initially is through
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mutual acquaintance of ours who told me, hey, they're Dave
6:15
Warner People in Culture award, so you need to talk to Elena.
6:23
So you're part of of an HR team. It does a lot of work on people
6:29
and culture, I suppose, especially in the building
6:31
phase. That's that's quite important.
6:34
I've been told what what is What is the work that you're most
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proud of? Good question.
6:42
Yes, scaling while maintaining the, the, the values, the glue
6:50
that makes your company so special that is very maybe easy
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and feels so natural when it's small.
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But when you scale, it's easy to, to, to lose it to, to, to
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dilute it with retiring. I think what I'm, what I think
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is special about what we do at Poder Sampson.
7:08
What I'm most proud of is that we are really keeping true to
7:12
the values and to make sure that we are intentionally growing the
7:16
team so while we grow, we don't lose the magic, so to say, look
7:23
easy. That's a very tricky, difficult
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thing and I think it's a very well known challenge for many
7:28
Spartan scale UPS. But we are very committed to do
7:31
that well. And I think that's also why we
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got the recognition earlier this year because we have a few
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things in place. Yeah, that's that help that
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really help us to, yeah, to to achieve this basically.
7:44
Yeah, so maybe let's just dive into that.
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Why is it hard to maintain a culture or build a culture and
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maintain a culture while growing so fast?
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What? What makes that hard?
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I think when you grow fast with, well, for us it is both, both
8:05
the amount of users but also in terms of the team itself.
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There is a lot of change happening and you have to adapt
8:12
and to keep moving forward. And at the same time you have to
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embed the things that are important.
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And usually in a starter scale, there is not a lot of time to do
8:22
these things because you have to address 100 plus things at the
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same time. That's that's the challenge.
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I think one of the things that we were very lucky with in a
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way, we didn't feel that at the time, I'm sure, but during COVID
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pandemic also, it was a very slow time.
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It was very unexpected and it was of course very slow because
8:40
no one was able to travel. But that time, it allowed us the
8:45
time to set up internal things quite well.
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And it, I think it has really helped us to then build from a
8:52
more solid base, really making sure that we embed things like
8:56
the values and really caring for the team and trying to keep that
9:00
balance because we were able to build that foundation quite
9:03
well. It's like a sort of a happy
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coincidence in an unlucky situation for us at that time.
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So I think that that has been really important.
9:12
And I think also clarity on values.
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And I wasn't there at the time, but before I joined the the Den
9:20
team, sat down together and said, OK, we are, we feel that
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we have something really special here.
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Let's think about what are these values and what do we want to
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really agree on and stick to continue building this company.
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So they define these values and they are still alive.
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They haven't changed. And yeah, we are building on
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that. But it is much easier to do that
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when they are clearly defined and, and when they allow you to
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use them as a foundation and to continue building on them.
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And this is what we have been embedding into our recruitment
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process, but also the people operations.
10:00
Yeah. And because it is a recurring
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thing that we bring back into, well, almost everything that
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we're doing, product development, team building the
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team, yeah, this, this remains very strong.
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And I think that is something that we become to value and
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appreciate even more because we know it's something special that
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we have. And it's also, yeah, becoming
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one of our, I sometimes call them superpower.
10:25
It's one of our ours, yeah. Yeah.
10:28
So you talked about taking COVID as an opportunity to, to really
10:36
sit down and cement, let's say, the the processes and procedures
10:41
and, and values into the culture.
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Was that the first time that people were thinking like, Hey,
10:50
this, this needs to be done, or was that earlier or?
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I have to be honest, I don't know the exact timing of it.
10:56
I think this was already always important.
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And yeah, the the situation of the COVID pandemic allowing us
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time. Yeah.
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I think when when I look back on that, I, I think that has helped
11:15
us to also build a strong foundation in in such a way
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that's that it is solid enough for us to really, yeah, build
11:25
everything on top. But it's also because that
11:28
happened then it doesn't mean that that is then the solution.
11:32
And we are so lucky that we we did it and then everything
11:34
happens by itself. You really have to stay super
11:37
committed and keep prioritizing it.
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Otherwise it will fail, it will fade again.
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So this is something that needs constant work and you need to
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have full agreement with everyone that this is something
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that we care about and that we do want to take to put a lot of
11:51
time and effort into it, which we are doing so that this is not
11:54
something that you can just lean upon and then stop putting the
11:59
effort into. You need to constantly be
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focused on it. Yeah, absolutely.
12:04
So, So what do you do to do that?
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Because as you said, you really need to keep keep focusing on
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this. And so there's COVID and then at
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least at first travel was really slow and then but afterwards it
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starts picking up. And I noticed that for polar
12:24
steps, like for many companies in a travel space, then all of a
12:28
sudden it was from zero to 100 in in 5 seconds.
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Yeah. So then, then it's, so my point
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is more than at those that point it's really easy to focus on,
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OK, let's go back to business and then not worry about it.
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So how do you how do you keep it on the agenda even when a
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company is growing fast? Yeah, that's, that's a good
12:54
question. Maybe it's not the the why it is
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on the agenda. I think that's the Co founders
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really care about it. So it is yeah, it is embedded
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there. And then if it will find its way
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into OK, we, we should be prioritizing this in, in how we
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do things and also in how strategy then takes form and,
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and where do we put our commitments, founders,
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leadership do not find it important.
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It will be really difficult to to actually make it as powerful
13:21
as it can be. And then I think we are very
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well the importance of it. It shows also in how we have set
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up our people team. To give you a bit of context,
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I'm part of the people team, but what my, my, my scope is
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recruitment. Obviously I have 4 dedicated
13:40
people and OPS colleagues that only focus on HR and, and yeah,
13:46
culture related things. Fear for people in a company
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that has not yet. We are almost 100, but not not
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even there. It's quite a heavy team for such
13:57
a small organization, if you could compare it to a lot of
13:59
other organizations. So that already speaks to we
14:02
really find it important. We have a very solid team there
14:06
to make sure that we can do a really good job there and we are
14:09
willing to to make the effort and spend the resources and to
14:13
re prioritize it, not only say that it's important, but really
14:16
act upon it. And yeah, in a team like that in
14:20
in our size context, I think it already says something about
14:24
that. But that's people OPS and they
14:27
have many initiatives and they do a lot of very important
14:31
behind scenes work in order for the culture to be able to
14:34
thrive. My part of that is that making
14:38
sure that we hire not only qualified people that are able
14:42
to do the job, that we also find people that align with the
14:46
values that we care about. That they make sure that they
14:48
understand what we are about. And for them to also decide if
14:52
this is their type of environment, yes or no.
14:56
It is very well embedded in our recruitment process.
15:00
Everyone who interviews with us, everyone will have a team and
15:03
values interview. And we have spent quite some
15:06
time with the the team that is performing these interviews and
15:12
they, they are in all different types of roles within the
15:15
company as well, from developers to marketing to doesn't really
15:18
matter. We have defined what type of
15:22
skills and behaviours, yeah can be distilled from the five
15:28
values that we have. And then based on these skills
15:31
and behaviours, it is much easier to ask normal questions
15:35
that you can have in a conversational type of interview
15:39
rather that why are you an explorer at heart?
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Which one of the values That's maybe a little bit.
15:45
Yeah, it's not the nicest way to really address something to get
15:49
an in depth and an authentic answer about.
15:53
So we, we spent quite some time triggering that out which
15:57
enables us to assess it much better.
16:00
And then there's also dedicated interviewing training for this
16:03
type of interview. So people, what are we trying to
16:07
achieve here? How can I approach that?
16:10
How can I also make a decision whether this it is aligned or
16:14
not aligned with what we're looking for because it is not
16:17
black and white in terms of you have the technical skills or
16:20
not. Bit more, Yeah, there's a bit
16:22
more Gray area there. So how are we trying to assess
16:25
this? And we train people on that.
16:27
So to really set us set ourselves up for success and for
16:32
them to set the candidate up for success.
16:34
OK, so before we dive a bit deeper into hiring as a culture
16:39
builder, I was wondering how do you sense if a culture or if if
16:48
you're not getting the results you want in terms of keeping the
16:53
culture where you want it to be? So how do you sense if a culture
16:57
drifts as a result of hiring or as a result of not taking enough
17:03
care before, before it comes feasible because ultimately it
17:07
becomes feasible of course in in turnover, team tensions,
17:11
etcetera. But how do you sense that before
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that happens? That's AI think that's not so
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straightforward always indeed, but I think yeah maybe when
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culture feels more like an idea than a reality perhaps or or
17:28
when yeah they they they feel more like works and not being
17:31
really lived. I think that that is if you
17:34
have, if you start thinking whether that is maybe the case,
17:39
then I think you are already sensing OK.
17:43
We really have to look into it because if I'm thinking about
17:46
it, there is something to it. How?
17:49
How do you? Are there specific pointers that
17:53
you found effective in that? So one, one way that we are
17:59
trying to to measure it before we see actual results and
18:04
negative results from maybe things like turnover and and
18:07
such. We are tracking our Emps, our
18:10
employer Net Promoter score. And with this we can also track,
18:15
yeah, if there is any discrepancies there, any
18:19
feedback relating we say we, we are this or we say we want this,
18:23
but we are not acting, acting upon them.
18:26
It is a very, very valuable tool for us to keep track on.
18:30
Yeah. How aligned are we there and
18:31
what is the perception and the experience?
18:34
And another thing was for me personally would be a bit of a,
18:37
a red flag is if people don't know at some point what our
18:41
values are or what they mean. If you end up in a conversation
18:44
where you know the team isn't isn't just too sure about that,
18:47
I think that's also should be a very clear sign that, yeah, it
18:52
is not as strong as we thought or we want it to be and thus it
18:56
needs more attention at work. So I'm now really curious what
19:01
you need to be an explorer at heart, but are the what are the
19:05
other values that border steps has?
19:09
All right, we, we have 5 values. They are also shared on our
19:14
career page. 1 is well, explorers at heart is 1.
19:18
We have dedication to crafts. We have, we are human, we have
19:22
be good to good and we have enjoy the rides.
19:26
These are the five values that we we have.
19:29
And these were set beef like like at the outside set of power
19:35
steps when the company sort of started.
19:38
Yeah, I think the, I think they were defined when the team was
19:43
like a 10 people team, so very small, just founders and a
19:48
couple of the very first hires and they had a session together.
19:52
I think at the time it was with someone who facilitated the
19:55
session. But yeah, they really gave their
19:57
input and came up with these five values, which I think they
20:02
did a brilliant job because they still feel very accurate.
20:05
Yeah. So how do you use these in the,
20:09
in the hiring process? You, you already said like, like
20:14
you're training people on how to ask questions, but but how do
20:20
you really put that in in a way except of, I mean, every company
20:27
puts their values on the career page.
20:30
Yeah, but you take it a level further.
20:32
Yeah. Well, we are definitely trying
20:34
to do that. And the way we have been going
20:36
about it so far is we did a session with all the team of
20:41
values interviewers that we have.
20:44
And we the challenge that we set ourselves was to look at these
20:50
values and to brainstorm together what type of skills and
20:54
behaviours we would associate with the values and what they
20:58
represent. You know, how are we living them
21:00
and what type of things on the day-to-day work floor will we
21:05
see there be thing like, yeah, this is really in line with
21:07
this, this particular value and what is the desired behaviour
21:10
that we want to see for them. And then we mapped that out and
21:15
based on these behaviours, we then came to questions that you
21:19
can ask to assess them, to discuss them.
21:22
So for example, if we talk about explorers, at heart, it sounds
21:26
very travel related, which it can be, but it doesn't have to
21:29
be. Travel is a luxury for for a lot
21:32
of people. It is also very much about being
21:35
curious, trying new things, go outside comfort zone.
21:41
These things, they they translate very well into work
21:44
related behaviours, but they don't have to be, but they can.
21:48
So you can talk about explorers at heart in many different ways.
21:53
So the goal with thinking about the skills and the behaviours
21:57
that we think are behind and connected to the the particular
22:01
value, it really enabled us to come up with different types of
22:04
questions that are, yeah, relatable to the different
22:07
people that we have in a team. Because the values, yeah, they
22:11
connect to all the different people that we have in a team in
22:14
a different way, which is fine. But we have a bit of diversity
22:18
there. And people can choose the type
22:19
of questions that they feel are close to them and they can have
22:22
a real and authentic conversation with someone that
22:24
that we are interviewing. It's always exactly the same
22:28
question, but that they can also make sure that they feel aligned
22:31
to yeah, their own story. And they can come up with a
22:35
context and an example and then ask a question that is close to
22:38
them. So it is the real conversation.
22:41
It's not like we are having this play, you know, and, and it
22:45
doesn't feel very real. We really want it to for
22:48
everyone to be able to connect in an authentic way.
22:51
And in this way I think we are facilitating that in a much
22:55
better way. And also we can get to the point
22:59
easier because we make it small so it doesn't have to capture
23:03
everything and we don't have to hear all the examples.
23:05
We can talk about specific things that are connected to
23:08
these values and, and we, yeah, we structure that in a way that
23:15
it is tangible and it is real and it is still connected to
23:19
these values and we are discussing them.
23:21
But we we can discuss them in various angles with various
23:25
different examples from all the different backgrounds that we
23:29
have in the team. It can be travel related.
23:31
It might be a new hobby or a new language they learned or a
23:35
certain situation that they associate with.
23:38
I'm curious. It can be anything.
23:40
So then the yeah, it is very useful for us and I think it
23:45
works very well for what we are trying to achieve.
23:47
Definitely. So, so about the exploring and
23:51
and curiosity, how important is that?
23:54
If you're building a company that is a about travel, which is
24:00
in my mind at least, about for a fair bit about curiosity because
24:06
because you tend to see and learn new things.
24:11
But also, if you're building a company that's growing fast, how
24:16
important is curiosity then also as a cultural element?
24:22
Very important, we are building something that doesn't exist
24:28
yet, so we are exploring a new territory, which makes some
24:34
people very excited and some people get a little bit anxious
24:37
about it. So we are trying to find the
24:39
people that that really feel yeah, energized and inspired by
24:45
such an environment, such a dynamic, such a reality.
24:48
So I think this type of skill or this type of maybe character, we
24:54
try to find the people that will be happy and successful in the
24:58
type of place that we are. It is what it is.
25:00
We also, if people have different needs, maybe more
25:04
clarity or stability, then what we can all it's maybe also, you
25:08
know, just not a good match because, yeah, we also have to
25:11
accept that there's great things about it and there's also things
25:15
that that we don't have or not yet have.
25:18
And then this skill for us is a really important one.
25:22
So we, we, it is part of the the values, but it's also part of
25:27
maybe sometimes the dynamic of the type of company that we are.
25:31
And it's a mindset that works very well in a scaling
25:33
organization when we figure out how we do certain things like a
25:39
meeting or communication structure.
25:42
Once we've figured it out and have embedded it, we almost have
25:44
to reinvent it again because we have grown and thus we have to
25:48
adapt again to make it effective and and comfortable to work
25:53
with. So, yeah, being curious about,
25:56
OK, it doesn't work anymore, what do we need to do?
25:59
And and be open to change and not be moving away from it.
26:04
That's it also has something to do maybe with curiosity in some
26:07
way. These are really important
26:09
things to be happy and successful in an environment
26:12
like ours. Yeah.
26:14
So I was recently interviewing to other people in the HR space
26:19
and they said, well, if you want to keep women on board, you need
26:24
to make things clear. Which sort of, if I hear your
26:30
story, it sounds sort of at all with especially the growth phase
26:34
when a lot of things, as you said it, by the time you've
26:38
invented a process, you have to redesign it again, start
26:41
redesigning it, which sort of leads to unclarity.
26:45
So do you think women can thrive in in that environment or do you
26:50
think that women are as a as a disadvantage?
26:55
Well, let let's let me let me start.
26:57
The advantage I also, I'm very curious about the context, where
27:02
what, what clarity? Then what type of clarity are we
27:04
talking about in terms of what women?
27:07
Well, well, the the example they gave is women want to really be
27:12
clear about what the responsibilities are that they
27:16
have in a job. So they are, let's say and this,
27:22
these are their words, less good with ambiguity.
27:26
So if you make it really clear what they need to do and then
27:31
they can form better than men. Not sure I.
27:36
Don't know I I don't really see the trends.
27:39
We have a really equal 5050 splits women versus men in our
27:44
organization. I don't really see a trend where
27:50
the the entrepreneurial or curious mindset that you, yeah,
27:54
need to have a little bit in order to, to to, yeah, feel at
27:58
ease in, in the dynamics that we have.
28:01
There is not really a clear difference between how men and
28:03
women deal or do not deal or thrive on that.
28:08
It might be that we are selecting on that really well
28:12
and that we hire lots of entrepreneurial women.
28:14
Let's say. No, I don't.
28:17
I don't really see a difference there.
28:19
For me, it will be more about creating an environment where
28:23
there is trust, where you feel supported, where you feel being
28:26
set up for success. And there if there is a lack of
28:29
clarity, it is not, there can be clarity while there is change,
28:35
but you have to be proactive on, OK, so this is not clear.
28:38
How do we see it? So now I can move forward.
28:41
There is a certain mindset, you can get the clarity wherever
28:44
needed to look for it and try to get it not by being reactive,
28:49
but by being proactive. And if you can take that step,
28:54
we, it's not that we don't want to figure it out together, but
28:57
you have to be willing to sometimes get an answer
29:00
yourself. Yeah.
29:02
It's it's a type of mindset that is more important than that.
29:06
There is a constant lack of clarity.
29:08
I don't think that's really the Case, No.
29:11
OK. So when we spoke before, you
29:14
talked about three things in terms of the hiring process and
29:18
there's 3 words that came to to mind, high impact talent, dance
29:23
and values. How do you keep those aligned
29:28
and you impact what they mean? What does high impact mean?
29:34
Or does talent dance? Because that's is to me pointed
29:38
to most curiosity and and the quality values probably will
29:43
follow from that. Well, let me start with Talent
29:45
Dance. So we are committed to have, you
29:50
know, highly skilled, high quality people that are able to
29:52
do the job really well. Then there is this values
29:57
alignment that we're looking for.
29:58
And we also look for, yeah, a strong drive to contribute to
30:03
what we are trying to achieve. Yeah.
30:05
How motivated are you for this type of challenge that that we
30:09
are offering? And when you make sure you do
30:14
this very carefully, the hiring bit and make sure that you find
30:17
someone who you know aligns with all of these these three things
30:22
very well, you likely end up and I think we can say that in in
30:27
lots of cases we have achieved, you end up with a very, yeah,
30:30
highly talent dance team. Lots of people are really good
30:35
at their job. They are well aligned on the
30:38
values that we share and that we have selected on as well with
30:42
lots of diversity. At the same time that a few
30:45
common beliefs that that do bind us next to the diversity of
30:49
wherever people are from and whatever their background is.
30:52
And then we all share this passion for the product that we
30:56
work for. There is a certain drive and an
30:58
energy behind it. And once you start to build a
31:03
team like that, the beginning is is difficult because it's not
31:07
easy to to find everything in one person.
31:10
It is. I was about to say.
31:13
It is not easy. I, I, I remember those early
31:16
days and it was very tough sometimes.
31:19
But the really nice thing now is that once you start to build a
31:23
team like that, well, talent knows talent.
31:26
So you recognize other great people and you're like, oh, this
31:30
is a team that I would really like to work with or they are
31:33
actually building something really nice.
31:35
And I had a really great experience and I feel very
31:37
aligned. I am very motivated to join this
31:39
team because you know, I can sense there is something special
31:42
here. So when you have high talent
31:44
density and when you really don't compromise on that, the
31:47
start is you have to really stay committed.
31:50
But that's after a while it becomes a little bit more easy
31:53
because talent, talent. So the talent density is our
31:58
philosophy of making sure that debt stays very strong and it
32:02
will help us to attract more talent.
32:04
So that is being and it retains the same time.
32:08
Does it also work the other way around?
32:10
Like talent recognizes talent. So people in an interview
32:15
situation, I can imagine that they are like, oh, this person
32:19
is like me. Like me in the sense they
32:22
recognize skill. It's not like the same this.
32:25
It's not like. I don't know, but like, like I,
32:27
I recognize the skill that you have.
32:30
We both have a portion or a drive to be really good at what
32:33
we do or to to build really beautiful applications or really
32:36
beautiful code. If you connect on that, that's
32:40
very powerful. So that is the talent density
32:43
bit. Another thing is we are growing
32:46
fast, but we we care more about adding impact than adding more
32:52
people in numbers. So we are actually trying to not
32:55
grow too fast, but to make sure that we hire exactly the right
32:58
people, adding more capacity, more impact, but hopefully with
33:04
relatively not that many people. So yeah, the the focus is much
33:09
more on, on how much of an increase of impact can we create
33:13
without hiring loads of new people because then yeah, the
33:17
balance between keeping the, the culture and the the productivity
33:21
on, on the levels that you want is much more easy.
33:25
So yeah, the impact for us is above the volume for sure.
33:31
Can I just double click on that? Because how do you do that?
33:35
Because it takes aid, takes compromises on value, which I
33:40
understand if you want to build a culture, you want people to
33:43
have certain values. But so if you have a very
33:47
talented person, are they usually not at least this is an
33:51
assumption that I have, so feel free to counter me on this.
33:55
If if someone is very talented at one thing, usually they're
33:58
not that talented at other things.
34:01
So how do you then sort of find people who are very talented at
34:08
at one particular skill that you really need, but also have sort
34:13
of shell with skills around them that we can help them create
34:20
more impact? So they're not not the one trick
34:22
pony. That's it, yeah.
34:24
No, I see what you're getting at.
34:26
It happened before that. We interviewed brilliant people
34:30
that were more than capable to do the job.
34:33
But we felt that, you know, in a team setting, in the way that we
34:36
work and in also failures. Alignment, yeah, there was not
34:40
enough alignment there. It means they're not hiring this
34:43
person. So we are not that's, that's why
34:46
what I mean with making sure it is the right hire that can be
34:51
very painful, especially when you really need the, the
34:54
resource. But we have made this difficult
34:58
decision multiple times that we say brilliant, but it's, it is a
35:02
short term, not a long term solution.
35:04
If it is not really working with the team, it can also sometimes
35:07
have a negative impact. It is not because this person
35:09
isn't great at what they do, but it's just not we.
35:11
We think it's not the right fit for for what the what we need
35:15
and what the team needs. We need to look at everything
35:18
and then yes, the search becomes much more difficult, I know.
35:24
But we are then still committed to find everything in one
35:28
person. So this the search would
35:31
continue for us. So and, and how much leeway do
35:35
you get from because there's also commercial pressure because
35:39
at some point you, you want to grow and you need that
35:42
developer. How, how do you balance that
35:46
towards let's say stakeholders, team members like a we can find
35:53
this very brilliant person, but he may not be a long term fit
35:57
versus we are still looking for someone who asked exactly that
36:03
fit that we want to have and has skills.
36:07
Yeah, yeah, it has happened that can can turn pretty painful also
36:14
in my own role because I do like to have results so now and then
36:18
so that that has happened in the past.
36:21
I think what is very different and very special also about
36:25
Polar steps, if I compare it to all the other companies that I
36:27
have been working for in, in the past, there is commercial
36:30
pressure, but we have the luxury that we are, yeah, we are a
36:34
profitable company and we do quite well.
36:36
We are very self sustainable in that sense and we have the
36:41
freedom to make the decision. Especially in the beginning
36:44
there was necessary. Now it is a bit less of a topic
36:47
that we see happening. In the beginning, we really
36:50
stayed committed to yeah, just continue searching.
36:54
We know what we're looking for. And then there's different ways
36:58
to, you know, different buttons that you can turn and switch and
37:05
to, to make sure that are we looking for the right thing.
37:08
But we have maybe it happened that we maybe compromised it
37:13
once or twice. But looking back, perhaps, yeah,
37:17
we concluded that we should have stayed committed to what we knew
37:20
that we, we we were looking for. So this is something that is
37:24
supported by leadership and actually, yeah, something that I
37:27
really had to adjust to because it is quite uncommon in the
37:32
context of recruitment and the time pressure that is always,
37:35
always there. It's a luxury in a way, but it's
37:40
also difficult when you put that aside.
37:43
Time to hire is not a metric that I'm looking at a lot.
37:46
I am looking at it, but there's other things that that we find
37:50
more important. Well, that that's absolutely
37:53
helpful if if leadership and founders are.
37:56
Create an impossible situation where I only can say what you
38:00
want is not possible. Uh, another solution might be
38:04
there is this this this triangle speed, quality and cost.
38:09
If you want it all, it's going to be expensive.
38:11
You always have to compromise on one thing or it means something.
38:16
Sometimes an interim solution can then be an in between
38:20
solution that has happened but we we try to avoid it.
38:24
But sometimes it happens. But there are, again, what I'm
38:27
hearing you say is also that you have to stay flexible in the
38:30
sense like, OK, if we can't get it short term, we we just hire
38:36
an interim. How do you how do you then deal
38:39
with failures though? Just curious.
38:42
So for interim, we, we are also taking that into consideration,
38:46
but maybe a little bit less than for a permanent hire because
38:50
with interim, yeah, I think then the priority for speed is a bit
38:54
higher. So we are not doing that as a
38:57
default. And it does, it happens, but it
38:58
doesn't happen a lot. So when it happens, it is, I
39:03
think currently we have maybe a handful of freelancers.
39:07
It's just a very small amount of the whole population.
39:10
So in that sense manageable. And if there is a very strong,
39:15
we are very unsure about the values match.
39:19
We probably also will continue looking for another freelancer.
39:22
Yeah, yeah. So it's completely let go of
39:25
values, but we become a bit more flexible.
39:31
But we didn't have many, many issues with that.
39:32
Luckily also because the the balance between the the the the
39:36
permanent base versus the interim shell, we have a very
39:40
small freelance shell. Yeah.
39:43
So I don't know if this happened at all, probably did, but we all
39:47
make mistakes also in in hiring. So let's let's say that you find
39:53
out that there's a mismatch after all, even though you did
39:57
all the screenings you needed to do, ask all the questions you
40:00
wanted to ask, got all the answers you wanted to hear or
40:04
needed to hear. And still there's a mismatch.
40:08
How do you dress that in a nerdy way?
40:10
Very good question. Because in in the Netherlands,
40:14
there's of course something called poof tight.
40:19
I was going to call it probation, but it's that's sort
40:23
of. One month or two months
40:25
depending on the length of the contract.
40:27
So that's already, let's say that that evaluation moment is
40:32
already in place. Well, of course that's that's
40:35
the same for us. We also have the decoration
40:37
order proof that period regulated by law.
40:42
I think let's say, yeah, you work with a one month timeline
40:46
that is that is regulated by law.
40:48
It's very short to really assess whether someone is a match.
40:52
So we, we, we put a lot of time and effort into, well, if you
40:56
spend so much time hiring the right person, hopefully this is
41:00
of course no process. So in recruitment, there's no
41:03
guarantees that it's very likely that is someone is going to be a
41:06
match, but you don't have 100% certainty never.
41:09
So that is always good to be aware of.
41:13
If you spend so much time in selecting the right person, then
41:18
we also spend a lot of time in making sure that we onboard
41:21
someone as best as we can. So a lot of time goes into that
41:24
and we have a very elaborate and solid onboarding process where
41:30
also my people and OPS colleagues are heavily involved.
41:33
And there is a 306090 program from very intense to much more
41:38
hands on in a job flow that someone does with also
41:43
evaluation moments and with milestones like we expect you to
41:47
be on this level after this amount of time and onboarding
41:50
with us while we try to really set clear expectations.
41:55
There is a whole plan there and it is custom for each role and
41:59
we will create a new one for if there is a new role that we, we,
42:03
we will hire for. So we spend lots of time there
42:06
and we have been learning also from the past.
42:08
So maybe in the very early days, we weren't as good at that as we
42:12
are today. But we have really, I think we,
42:15
we, we have a really good practice there and it helps us
42:18
to assess that in case there is still a misalignment on for
42:22
whatever reason. Yeah, we have this process in
42:26
place that is also helping us to have the conversation.
42:29
And yeah, in case there is no alignment after all.
42:36
Yeah, we have to be honest and transparent about a mismatch in
42:40
expectations. But I having the expectations so
42:45
clearly there and having all the tools and things in place for
42:49
for someone to be set up for success.
42:52
And sometimes if the set conclusion is OK, it's not a
42:54
match after all. It is it's not nice.
42:57
But yeah, it is not going to be a big surprise or it is not
43:02
going to be that we think we we could have done better there.
43:06
We really try to make it work. And if it doesn't, then we then,
43:10
yeah, then we have to be honest about it.
43:13
But yeah, we really try to prevent this from happening.
43:16
Yeah. OK.
43:17
So just to conclude that the hiring part, I also read that
43:23
you have maybe that's also very good, let's say control in the
43:29
in the in the whole process to make sure that someone actually
43:34
does match. You have a day at the office as
43:38
part of the recruitment process that allows you to observe a
43:45
person for a day. What do you look for when they
43:50
besides the obvious skills and yeah, that they need to have if
43:58
they really exhibit those skills, what do you look for?
44:02
How do you see when a candidate adds that exact thing that he or
44:09
she needs to add? The idea for the day at the
44:14
office is to really experience something real together.
44:20
Interviewing is lots of conversations about things that
44:23
you haven't experienced together, which can tell you a
44:26
lot. But it's it's it also, yeah,
44:28
uncovers or it it keeps, you know, this, this whole corner of
44:32
OK, does this actually work in reality?
44:34
Can, can we assess it in some way?
44:37
This is why we have a day at the office.
44:39
So for us it is you need to observe and experience and
44:44
assess the candidates skills, but also how to communicate.
44:50
Yeah, to to to be with someone for a whole day.
44:54
The sometimes people have they are nervous for interview.
44:57
The nervousness will fade away after maybe the first hour and
45:01
we will try to make someone at ease.
45:03
And you can really see more of the real person behind the
45:05
professional and behind the nerves.
45:07
So that is super valuable. Someone can really be more like
45:13
themselves in a normal work context and then you can really
45:16
see, okay, is this aligned with what we've seen so far is what
45:20
we are looking for. And the candidates can also
45:23
experience, okay, these values that we obviously also talk
45:27
about. And for some people, it is a
45:28
reason to apply to a role with us.
45:32
They can experience, is it actually life?
45:34
Can I really feel it? Are they being, you know, it is
45:37
a way for them to to really assess, you know, is it real?
45:40
So they, they are learning all these things.
45:43
They are getting a taste of the challenge of what it might be
45:48
like to work with us and to see, do I like it?
45:50
Am I challenged? But I'm, am I able and am I
45:53
having some fun with it? And then, yeah, there's of
45:57
course maybe sometimes flags that we would think, OK, this is
46:00
maybe not a match. It can be the technical ability.
46:04
In reality, sometimes someone can talk about it and can't
46:07
actually do it or not the way or on the level that we are looking
46:11
for. We will, we will see a flag
46:13
there. But it can also be how someone
46:16
is, is or isn't communicating. While that might be useful or
46:20
helpful also in what the day-to-day would require or how
46:25
is someone dealing with real feedback based on their solution
46:29
that they are presenting and a discussion that we have
46:31
afterwards. So there are all these different
46:33
things that we can we can see. And sometimes, yeah, something
46:37
pops up and sometimes it's a very solid confirmation of, Yep,
46:42
this is very aligned with what we have already been seeing and
46:46
talking about. And it does show in yeah, the
46:49
person that shows up for that day.
46:52
So yeah, for us, it's very valuable to to see the person
46:55
basically and for the person to. Yeah, but also, as you said, for
47:00
the person him or herself that they get to see, OK, this is
47:05
what it's really like because the the website and recruitment
47:10
movies and the interviews are just snapshots.
47:13
And then as I always put it to, you can't hide for a day.
47:19
And that works both ways. So, so for the candidate, they
47:22
cannot hide any things that they may or may not have told, and
47:28
the company cannot hide either. You just get it as it is, and
47:33
even then it's a snapshot. But.
47:37
And, and the difficult thing with today at the office or why
47:40
it's sometimes not perfect, is if someone is having a bad day,
47:43
that can be really sad. It, it can happen.
47:47
But yeah, we, we can't really ask someone to join us for a
47:49
week. So, yeah.
47:52
But it, it does bring a lot. And I also really believe it
47:55
brings the candidate a lot. And if something feels off and
47:59
you can't really put your finger on it, we do have the team of
48:01
values interview that's always afterwards.
48:03
And we can really, yeah, use that also to explore this
48:07
specific doubt that we might have further.
48:10
So we also use it to to make sure that we have uncovered,
48:14
yeah, the the the important things that are relevant in that
48:18
specific case with that specific candidates.
48:22
And usually I get the question a lot, especially from also from a
48:28
lot of recruiters actually, like aren't people very hesitant to
48:33
to dedicate their time for a whole day, you know, in a
48:35
process they don't get to guarantee, of course that they
48:37
will get the job, yet still find out.
48:40
So are people really willing, are developers really willing to
48:44
join you for a whole day? And I can see that.
48:48
And at the same time, luckily, I think in my whole career at
48:53
Polar Steps, maybe it happened. I can count them on one hand.
48:56
I think people are quite happy that they get the opportunity to
48:59
really explore it and they also know what they're choosing for,
49:03
yeah. Yeah.
49:04
And also if, if you really want the job, we can imagine that you
49:09
want to be sure, at least I would want to be sure that that
49:15
it is a match from both ways so that I can actually play my A
49:20
game when I come to polar steps. Well, that's exactly it.
49:23
So if you are very driven and, and, and very curious and eager
49:28
for this opportunity, this is a great because you, you, you will
49:32
be hopefully. Well, if this is not for you,
49:34
then you will know as well. But you affirmed it.
49:37
OK, this is what it is. And we, of course, it also takes
49:41
an investment from our side, but it's worthwhile if, if it is a
49:46
good match, we're happy to spend this time.
49:49
And yeah, I of course, monitor the conversion rates and to make
49:54
sure that this is healthy. It's yeah, this for, for us,
49:58
it's a very successful way to be as sure as we can about the
50:03
right, the right match. Yeah.
50:05
I want to shift a bit to belonging and and and once
50:11
people are inside the company. How do you, because you have a
50:15
hybrid set up, right? So it's not only in person.
50:22
Is it all that international? So we have a hybrid set up.
50:26
We do relocate everyone to Amsterdam, but then yeah, it is
50:32
still a hybrid set up. So typically people are at the
50:35
office twice a week. People like to be at the more so
50:39
you you can, but you don't have to.
50:42
Yeah, we, we say, OK, maybe at least twice a week to have to be
50:45
able to connect with each other and to, to get to know each
50:48
other because we think we have a really nice company and a really
50:51
nice culture. And it's difficult to really
50:54
experience that when you're always at home.
50:56
But it is possible to work from home.
50:58
I'm currently at home. Yeah.
51:01
So that's, that's, that's, that's the way that we we have
51:04
it set up. Is it difficult to attract
51:06
people if they have to relocate just as add complexity to the
51:11
hiring process? It does add complexity, not not
51:15
so much to the hiring wall. Yes, I know you have to be very
51:18
careful to hire people within the requirements of Ind visa
51:24
threshold requirements and stuff like that.
51:27
Relocation is it's it's an investment.
51:31
It takes more time for someone to be able to start.
51:34
There is more adjustments for someone to change life,
51:38
literally I think a whole life, a family sometimes to come and
51:43
move here, new culture, new climates.
51:45
It can be, it can be a lot. We also have a lot of experience
51:49
on that now. So I think we we have quite a
51:51
smooth process for what it is, but lots of steps, lots of
51:54
admin. We do it because we believe that
51:58
it's important to stay connected a lot and it's an intentional
52:03
choice. So we don't work with fully
52:05
remote. Yeah, that's, that's that's the
52:07
choice that has been made. And for us, it is working really
52:10
well, but it does need a bit of extra time and investment and
52:16
yeah, making sure that someone is able to settle, settle in
52:19
well. Can I, Yeah, Can I just double
52:23
click? Because I spoke to Marika von
52:26
Ipertin from from Setley. She she does these relocations.
52:32
So I was wondering about your perspective.
52:35
What does it take for a company to really make those people who
52:40
come from outside country, be that within the EU or let's say
52:45
anywhere else that they can easily go and relocate to the
52:50
Netherlands? How do you make them feel quote
52:54
UN quote at all? We are doing many things to set
52:59
it up for success as best as we can.
53:00
But of course it's going to be a super personal journey for
53:04
everyone. But there's similarities.
53:07
So I think there's one important thing.
53:09
We have a lot of people in the company that have been through
53:12
this experience themselves. In that sense they can relate to
53:16
each other. They are not the only one doing
53:18
this. We have pretty nationalities in
53:20
the company and yeah, so many people are experts and have been
53:24
relocating. So this is in that sense you are
53:27
quite normal when you join partner steps.
53:29
Yeah, OK, quite normal in that sense.
53:32
So that is probably helping and they can also be, they are also
53:35
supporting each other on that. We help set them up first month
53:39
of housing. If they have a pet that needs to
53:41
be relocated, we also help them with that partner fees.
53:44
You know, we really try to set up the whole family, not only
53:48
the one person, but to make sure that they are comfortable.
53:51
And we have a whole onboarding guide with lots of information.
53:54
We help them with house viewings if necessary.
53:57
We give them time and flexibility in their first month
54:00
when they need to pick up certain things or when they have
54:02
to review houses, you know, to really we understand that they
54:06
need to make create a base and we will allow for for time and
54:11
flexibility there for them to do that well.
54:15
So we try to well, this is actually living our we are human
54:19
value. We of course want them to start
54:22
contributing to yeah, where, where we hire them for, but they
54:26
can't do that when their whole home situation or settling into
54:31
the Netherlands is a mess. You know, if that's the bit of
54:34
Maslov, if the bases aren't, it's, it's not really going to
54:40
be likely to work out. So we make sure that they have a
54:43
bit of yeah, we, we help them and they have a bit of time to
54:47
make that work. Yeah.
54:49
But what I'm also hearing you say is that there's because
54:53
there are so many people inside company who have the same
54:57
experience, it's easy for I suppose for them to support all
55:03
this person is struggling with this.
55:04
So let me give give some tips or let me just help.
55:09
Yeah. So what we see is they have, I
55:14
think they, they are probably, well, I, I cannot really speak
55:18
from experience because I'm not, I'm from the Netherlands, But
55:21
what I definitely have seen is that they find each other, help
55:25
each other out. Sometimes have a suggestion
55:27
like, Hey, there is a house for rent there.
55:30
You're still looking for a more permanent place.
55:31
Maybe this is for you. They really help each other
55:34
there. They go for drinks, they share
55:36
experiences. I think also sometimes the the,
55:39
the partners, they, they find each other had to OK trying to
55:44
build a bit of a network, organise a lot of events for
55:47
them to also connect more on social levels also outside of
55:51
their own team. So we really try to to
55:55
facilitate that. Yeah.
55:59
And while the team is growing and while the diversity is
56:03
continuing to be, you know, diverse and this is also
56:05
growing, yeah, it is helping us to do it even better with more,
56:11
yeah, experience on our part, but also with this team that's
56:14
that knows very well first hand what it takes to settle in.
56:20
And they're there for each other.
56:21
So growth also means that the organization grows in, in size
56:28
and complexity also means that, let's say roles that people had
56:35
changed over time. So how do you sort of guide
56:40
people on that way? So, and also how do you do do
56:46
that in terms of promotions, in terms of career paths that
56:50
people may be looking for without adding rigidity in terms
56:55
of, OK, this is the, the, I cannot, cannot come up with the,
56:59
the, the English word here, but in Dutch it's Fung shiqbao.
57:04
So the the structure of for all, the all for the types of
57:10
positions, how do you avoid rigidity and keep internal
57:18
mobility and career paths clear for everyone at the same time?
57:24
Yeah, that that's, that's, that's something that we are
57:28
also currently, you know, working and thinking, working
57:32
with and thinking about. We have still a lot well, the
57:36
the the people that joined early stage, most of them are still
57:40
with us. So that's super, super nice.
57:42
And we really, yeah, make an effort to, to see how can we
57:46
also retain them and, and sometimes say what is the growth
57:51
path and, and what are the, the opportunities there.
57:53
And I think we have been doing quite well.
57:55
So you see certain people from an IC role growing more into a
57:59
lead role when the, the capabilities and the ambitions
58:02
are there. But if they're what, then we've
58:05
also successfully found other roles that, yeah, service their
58:10
ambitions and the things that they enjoy in their work.
58:12
More growth doesn't always have to be in a hierarchical way.
58:17
It can also be in other ways. And we have, we have multiple
58:20
success cases there. So we really make an effort to
58:23
to understand what do we need to understand what is a, what is
58:26
the person, the individual looking for?
58:28
What are their ambitions and how can we bring that together?
58:33
But of course, we also hire, yeah, new skills into the
58:36
company. Sometimes it is necessary.
58:39
You don't have it or the ambition is not there.
58:42
If the company grows, the scope, the responsibilities, they grow.
58:45
And yeah, the job reality can be very different from what it once
58:48
was. I think a brilliant example
58:51
actually is our new CEO we've hired almost 1 1/2 years ago.
58:57
Sometimes a new phase requires other skills, new insights and
59:02
experiences. And then it's sometimes better
59:05
to to see if we can hire that into the company and then the
59:09
the people that are already there, you know, yeah, we can
59:12
learn from each other and we can even move forward more
59:15
successfully together. But we we do always look
59:19
internally like can we do we have the resources already and,
59:24
and give someone a growth path. And for some of the the First
59:27
off rules, we also hire a lot of positions for the first time.
59:33
We hire overqualified people with the idea that we expect to
59:37
grow. They will be, they're able to
59:41
set things up really well and they can grow with the role and
59:44
then they can hire their own team instead of hiring someone
59:47
above that in two years because we need a different level.
59:50
We try to reverse that and see if we can find someone really
59:55
great and a little bit overqualified, but up for the
59:57
challenge and to do it really well from the from the
1:00:00
beginning. Yeah, that's all our strategy.
1:00:03
So on the new CEO, how do you hire a new CEO Because that sort
1:00:12
of that that brings now let me test this assumption.
1:00:16
Did she? It's a, it's a woman, Clara
1:00:20
Jones. And what did she bring that you
1:00:24
didn't already have? Great question.
1:00:28
I think the obvious, very obvious thing that she's
1:00:30
bringing is the experience of having skilled successfully
1:00:34
before in the face that we are in now and where we want to go
1:00:38
in the next couple of years. So yeah, this is of course super
1:00:41
valuable experience that is helping us moving forward much
1:00:45
more efficiently, helping us to provide maybe certain common
1:00:50
mistakes or things that we we are not aware of, but she has
1:00:54
she has a bit more experience and context there.
1:00:56
So that's super helpful, but something that we haven't been
1:01:01
well, the the same. It wasn't an easy search because
1:01:05
we were looking for a lot in one person.
1:01:08
So we we took our our, our sweet time for it even became a bit of
1:01:11
a joke. There were songs written about
1:01:14
it and and such things. You were very.
1:01:17
This is such an important high impact higher.
1:01:20
We just need to get it right. So yeah, also alignment of
1:01:24
values. We have been making this super,
1:01:27
super important and it's amazing to see how well it is aligned
1:01:31
and she's adding new ideas and perspectives into that, but she
1:01:35
is not in that sense changing company or yeah, what we find
1:01:39
important. So that's, yeah, that's really,
1:01:41
I think everyone is very happy that we took the time and then
1:01:45
yeah, we found, we found so on that it's a really great match
1:01:48
for us. OK, what did she change?
1:01:51
I'm not sure. Well, I would not say it's
1:01:53
changed, but it's maybe more what she was adding what, what
1:01:55
she, what she has been adding and what, what I think you don't
1:02:00
know what to expect. You know, what will a new CEO be
1:02:03
adding to what we already have? But she, she is very transparent
1:02:08
in sharing updates in communications about important
1:02:11
big topics that are going on in the company.
1:02:13
So really engaging us all into these decisions and into
1:02:20
insights and feedbacks, but also things that are not going well
1:02:22
or things that we might have well, we we would do in a
1:02:25
different way if we would, could, if we could do it again.
1:02:28
She is really transparently communicating about it and in
1:02:31
that sense being quite, yeah, vulnerable there, saying, hey,
1:02:35
this is what it is, sharing it with all of you.
1:02:37
So you're all in the loop and everyone, it makes everyone very
1:02:42
appreciate. Yeah, appreciating that and much
1:02:45
more engaged in a way because we are all part of it.
1:02:48
So she's, he's making everyone part of the big things that are
1:02:52
are happening in the company. So that is something really
1:02:56
nice. And she's actually celebrating
1:02:59
and enforcing our values even more.
1:03:03
So there's also very proactive ways that she is, yeah, bringing
1:03:09
this across and making them very on top of mind.
1:03:14
Now, how did she do that that that's celebrating those values?
1:03:17
Maybe maybe just a very, very easy or like a small example,
1:03:21
but celebrating success. If something goes well, let's
1:03:24
make sure that we we say, well, we, we give someone a little
1:03:28
compliment and we have now a nice kudos channel where people
1:03:32
are giving a shout out to someone, even though it's small,
1:03:35
even though it's not hitting a big milestone, but maybe
1:03:38
something small or maybe even someone living the values in, in
1:03:43
some way. And you want to make that
1:03:45
visible, really enabling, yeah, something simple as a select
1:03:48
channel to do that. Or tonight we will have the
1:03:52
winter party and we will have the value awards where we can
1:03:57
all nominate who is living which value the best way.
1:04:00
And yeah, people will be put put in the spotlight for that, for
1:04:04
example, these in that sense, yeah, little small things that
1:04:09
that will have a very positive impact on really living the
1:04:13
values, I think. Yeah, these are a few things
1:04:15
that I shared with what she's bringing in.
1:04:18
She's really aligning with that. And then taking this and yeah,
1:04:23
bringing this more forward with her.
1:04:25
It would be nice. Yeah, and what it also does is
1:04:29
confirm behaviour. Yes, if you take it for granted,
1:04:35
if you don't say like, hey, this is actually really great, It
1:04:41
clarifies what we all like and you will, you'll immediately see
1:04:46
the positive response. People will really engage on
1:04:48
that. So yeah, it's really powerful,
1:04:50
but you have to do it. If you just forget about it,
1:04:54
yeah, the power will also dilute.
1:04:57
Yeah, yeah, absolutely over Linda.
1:04:59
Thanks very much so far for the conversation.
1:05:02
I have two more questions to go. 1 is bit of advice that I need
1:05:07
from you. You've been working at a tech
1:05:09
company as a woman for quite a while.
1:05:13
Probably not that involved in fundraising, but I'm building an
1:05:18
AI based funding coach to connect female founders and
1:05:21
investors and thereby closing the funding gap.
1:05:26
So from your perspective, what is 1 functionality that this
1:05:30
tool should have to support female founders to get more and
1:05:36
better funding for their startup?
1:05:38
Yeah. I, I, I'm not super involved in
1:05:41
this, but maybe take it in the context of what we, what we
1:05:46
believe in at polar steps and, and what is successful for us.
1:05:49
I would say, and with the assumption that other funeral
1:05:52
founders do care about this as well.
1:05:55
I don't know if this is for for everyone, but maybe find a way
1:05:58
to for them to exchange ways to really build and maintain a
1:06:04
strong company culture and how to do it.
1:06:07
Because that is not so straightforward and not so easy.
1:06:10
And I think it's difficult to figure out when you have 100
1:06:14
other things to to to worry about as a founder.
1:06:17
But maybe a way to exchange how to do this well and how to make
1:06:21
sure that's the yeah, the values are alive, the team is happy how
1:06:25
to do this. And I think I hope this
1:06:28
investors also do care about that because I think it's a
1:06:33
great predictor of how successful a company can be.
1:06:36
Can it achieve it's potential? The team is so important and the
1:06:39
culture does is I think really important.
1:06:42
So maybe how they can help each other make sure that that is
1:06:46
really strong. Yeah.
1:06:48
And and also find the right investors based on the values
1:06:52
that they have. Yes, yes.
1:06:55
So if yeah, I think that's that's a very nice addition,
1:06:58
definitely. Yeah.
1:07:00
Well, that that part is at least I'm really trying to build that
1:07:04
in because I really believe personally, personally that you
1:07:09
have to match on values 1st and then the investment will come or
1:07:14
the transaction will come or the buy will come or the higher will
1:07:20
come if you don't have the values.
1:07:23
But you also have to know what they are in order to to find a
1:07:27
match. So that is that that has to do
1:07:30
with identity of your company and and yeah, to really being
1:07:35
able to define that. Cool.
1:07:37
And that sounds like a really great place to to close because
1:07:42
I will include that the identity part in the in the tool.
1:07:49
Elinda Boorman, thank you very much for this interview.
1:07:52
Really enjoyed this. If people want to connect with
1:07:55
you or learn more about polar steps or maybe explore if it's a
1:08:01
fit for them, where would you like to send them?
1:08:04
Well, I'm quite active on LinkedIn so feel free to connect
1:08:07
with me there. We are now regularly hosting
1:08:12
meet ups, so if there's anything in your field that we're
1:08:15
hosting, make sure to see if you can join us.
1:08:18
That would be great. I'm also there quite actively in
1:08:21
the recruitment community. We have a nice career website
1:08:26
where we post all our roles. So if you see anything there so
1:08:29
possible to to connect or follow any of the team members.
1:08:35
Claire is very active on LinkedIn and she is sharing a
1:08:38
lot about what's going on with Potter steps and what are we
1:08:40
doing? I think many resources to to
1:08:43
look at. Oh yeah, and we have a very nice
1:08:45
this is very much employer Brandy related, but we have a
1:08:48
very nice Instagram channel where we post lots of team
1:08:50
things like what are we doing as a team?
1:08:53
So that's product related at all, but it's very much about
1:08:56
the team and and how we leave the culture.
1:09:00
Yeah, yeah. You can also look it up and see
1:09:03
behind the scenes. Cool.
1:09:05
And we'll include those links in the show notes.
1:09:08
Nice. Amazing.
1:09:10
Thank you, thank you and listeners, thank you for
1:09:14
listening. And until the next episode, as
1:09:16
always, keep being awesome. Well, that's it.
1:09:30
Thank you for listening to episode 145 of Women Disrupting
1:09:35
Tech titled Scaling Your Startup Without Losing Its Soul with
1:09:39
Belinda Bourman. Belinda and I hope that you
1:09:43
found our conversation as insightful and practical as we
1:09:46
intended it to be. And if you have any questions
1:09:49
for Belinda, please leave them in the comments on YouTube,
1:09:53
Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. I do read all the comments and
1:09:57
I'll make sure you get an answer.
1:09:59
If you want to connect with Lalinda or learn more about
1:10:02
border steps, please check out the links in the show notes.
1:10:06
As usual, you can find the show notes at Women Disrupting Tech,
1:10:09
Toplog and on my sub stack. Find links in the caption.
1:10:14
If you found this episode helpful, please take a moment to
1:10:17
rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or
1:10:20
YouTube. And if you don't follow us yet,
1:10:23
please hit follow or subscribe button so you never miss a
1:10:27
future episode. Once again, thank you for
1:10:31
listening. I hope to see you in the next
1:10:33
episode, and until then, as always, keep being awesome.