Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / Album 8 Track 5 - Marketing with Insights, Differentiation, and Belonging w/Seth Matlins

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Album 8 Track 5 - Marketing with Insights, Differentiation, and Belonging w/Seth Matlins · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• DC: [00:00:00] Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds, back at you with another edition of Brands, Beats and Bytes. This one is a little sentimental for me. Brand Nerds should have happened a long time ago. You've no doubt heard the saying, steel sharpens steel, or iron sharpens iron. That is our next guest today. I've not met many people who I can say are singularly responsible for helping me become a better marketer and a better person. This next guest is such a person in my life. He is a dear friend. He is someone that has done some of the best marketing and brand building and innovative things in the game. He has a history and a track record that I'm not [00:01:00] sure how many people outside of our industry know but should know and brand nerds. You know, the reason why we do this show is for some of you all who have aspirations of being in the C-suite, S suite, eSuite, we try to provide guest and nuggets that can help you get there faster and what you will learn from this man LT coming up next, we have no doubt will help you do that. Lt, can you let the peoples know who's in the building today? LT: DC We have Seth Matlins in the house today. Welcome, Seth. Seth Matlins: Thanks guys. That was, that was awfully nice of you, D. LT: Well, Seth Matlins: I mean, not that it wasn't nice of you Larry, but D did go on. LT: Well, Seth, this is just the beginning 'cause the way we run this show here is, uh. DC gives, uh, almost, um, the pretext and then I'm gonna give the Brand Nerds, uh, uh, a more [00:02:00] in-depth, um, reading of who we have in the building, in the virtual building today. So that's what we're gonna do now, Seth. Okay. Brand Nerds, after graduating Northwestern, Seth has embarked upon a fantastic career as an award-winning marketer. He has spent the bulk of this career in the C-Suite, or advising the C-Suite for some of the most iconic global brands, broadly recognized as one of marketing's top thought leaders, and the curator and convener of marketing's most prestigious events, conversations, and recognitions. Seth has unrivaled insight and access into the challenges facing the biggest brands, companies, and the people around the world who lead them. Just this year in 2026, Seth announced founding The Wisdomous Company. Did I have that pronounced right, Seth? Seth Matlins: Nailed it, LT. LT: Oh, awesome. Multi-year multi-platform partnership with Vox Media to continue his work championing marketing CMOs [00:03:00] marketers and the growth they drive most. Seth Matlins: And just to be clear, I'm sorry to interrupt. Just to be clear, that's Vox with a V and not, uh, Fox with an F. LT: Ooh, I'm glad you said that. That's Vox with a V, like victory. DC: Thank you for the clarification. He Seth Matlins: victory my guy. DC: Thank you for the clarification. LT: That's an important clarification. Okay. Most recently, Seth spent four years as managing managing director of the Forbes CMO Network, where he created and hosted the CEO's Guide to Marketing podcast, the Forbes video series on the evolution of creativity and creative, founded the Forbes creator Upfronts and served as editor of the Forbes World's most Influential CMOs list, creator and editor of the Forbes Entrepreneurial CMO 50 list. And curator of the most prestigious CMO summits globally, having worked for some of the world's most influential culture shaping organizations, he is a renowned expert on brand, marketing, [00:04:00] cultural, and values driven marketing, and his ideas have shaped brands, businesses in the cultural landscape itself. For over 30 years, he has been president of Rock the Vote, founding the marketing practice for Creative Artist Agency, better known by the acronym of CAA, was the first global CMO at Live Nation. Launched his own double bottom line women's brand and company, and was the head of cultural strategy and insights at Hollywood's Powerhouse Endeavors cultural marketing agency. Additionally, Seth has written the Scratch and Sniff Book of Weed now in its eighth printing, by the way, and is currently writing a new book based on his CEO's Guide to Marketing Show. Seth is also author of Federal Legislation, the Truth in Advertising Act, and that's HR 4 3 4, 1, by the way, which called on the FTC and advertising industry to consider the unintended consequences of Photoshop ads and images. This will be a great one, Brand Nerds. Welcome to Brands, Beats and Bytes, Seth [00:05:00] Matlins Seth Matlins: Thank you guys. DC: You're welcome, brother. You're welcome. Flowers. Seth Matlins: I'm, I'm exhausted just listening to that. It's all you. DC: That's you brother. Seth Matlins: That's you. You did DC: it. Seth Matlins: I, I, I guess it is. I guess it is. Well, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. DC: All right, brother. We are moving to the Get Comfy Section. I need to let the brand nerds in on something before I go. Uh, uh, Brand Nerds, our guest, his name is Seth Matlin, but I don't call him Seth. I call him Jimmy, you'll have to talk, talk to me. Always have, always have. You'll have to talk to me off somewhere out in the streets. If you want to understand why I call him Jimmy, but I'm calling him Jimmy. Just so you don't get confused. Brandon Nerves. And you're like, okay, what he, I thought it was Seth. It is Seth. I call him Jimmy. All right, Jimmy, here we go. In fact, if I called him Seth, he would wonder like he, he would like what the fuck who you're talking to. Seth Matlins: Who else is here? DC: Yeah. Who else is here? That's exactly what he would say. All right. Uh, Get Comfy Section. [00:06:00] The voice X Factor. Um, um, America's Got Talent. Okay? These are juggernaut shows, juggernaut talent shows, but everything has an origin story, okay? The origin story of those shows is American Idol. Brand Nerds, when American Idol launched here in the us it launched with marketing partners. Helming, bringing American Idol to the US was creative artist agency. Uh, they also had a newly, uh, uh, cemented group in a brand organization and marketing organization to help bring American Idol to the US with marketing partners. That's one. The second, [00:07:00] Harry Potter, the film, the first film that came out, the Harry Potter books, it had count them on one finger, one marketing partner, not two, not eight, one. Uh, it, it is the only time, to my knowledge that had ever been done in cinema and marketing in the world, this is a global deal. What do American Idol and Harry Potter have in common? Both CAA, both led by marketing and branding to even get the deals done. So for American Idol to be on tv, marketing and branding was a central part of that pitch for Harry Potter as a film to be marketed with one partner. Obviously, not only did the studio, but more importantly, JK Rowlings had to be convinced that [00:08:00] the right partner could do this. They have in common Seth Madmans, my boy Jimmy Seth Matlins: Well, and the Coca-Cola company. DC: Well, yeah. And the, and the, and the Coca-Cola company. Yes. And the Coca-Cola company. So Jimmy. Pick either one, either American Idol or Harry Potter, and take the Brand Nerds behind the curtain as to how these things happened. And I'll also say this, this is where I met my boy Jimmy. I was running entertainment marketing during the time that these things were happening. So he and I were connected at the hip. Jimmy, you got the floor brother. Seth Matlins: I mean, I guess, uh, I, I'll start with the first one, which was, which was Harry Potter. And, and in fact, CAA wasn't officially involved in that though. They did May still, I don't know, it's 25 years, 26 years later. Um, represent David Haman, the producer. But, um, I had gotten to CAA [00:09:00] in May, Coke was already a client, and it was, I was actually hired to kind of run that business. Six, I think it was like a six month deal, an initial six or nine month deal. DC: Yeah. Seth Matlins: And I remember DI remember this so clearly. It was Memorial Day weekend that Friday you and I were on the phone and we were, I said to you, Harry Potter is in production. Or maybe it was about, actually, you know what? I don't even think they'd found Harry yet. I don't think they'd found Daniel. DC: I don't think so. Seth Matlins: I don't think so. No, they hadn't. 'cause I think they found him that summer. Yeah. At a play that, that David Haman was at. Um, I was like, this is going into production. Mm-hmm. You guys have to be a part of it. Pepsi's already in the mix and you're like, what's Harry Potter? Um, because DC: That's exactly what I said. Seth Matlins: Yeah, because, excuse me, it was. Huge, but it wasn't ubiquitous. It was huge, but it wasn't as well known, certainly as it would become. Um, and, [00:10:00] and I don't think we knew that Jo Rowling was gonna become, as, you know, much of a hater as she's become, uh, to the trans community in particular. But, um, Pepsi was in, and then, so that was Memorial Day, Friday, July 4th weekend, Warner Brothers and Pepsi presented their plan to Jo, JK and it did not go well. Um, I remember referring to it with people at the studio at the time as the July 4th massacre. Uh, it did not, it did not go well for anybody who was in the room. JK was, was furious and she was not interested in, in actually having any partners. But because of, um, a handful of people at CAA in particular, some of you know the then managing partners, um. We were able to get, we weren't able just to get a conversation going between Coca-Cola, who, who as, as you said, was my client [00:11:00] and the studio, but we got some, you know, just extraordinary insight on how to make it work for the film. How to make it work for Coca-Cola. Oh, actually I'm forgetting, I'm forgetting a moment. It was at the Sun Valley conference. Mm-hmm. Um, where the president of CAA and Doug Daft, who was at the time, um, CEO of the Coca-Cola company, had a brief conversation about it and Doug said, we are in. Then it was about how do we go get you in? LT: Was that the summer? Was that after July 4th? Just through So the Brand Nerds know. Seth Matlins: Yeah. It would've, yeah, that in the summer time. I don't remember when Sun Valley was in that sequence, but it was proximate on one side or the other. Mm-hmm. Um, and, um, long story short, um, we did a two year deal. First, uh, first two mo I'm sorry, not a two year deal deal, a two film deal, um, that, uh, the second film, Coke's [00:12:00] participation in the second film was triggered if, um, the first film did, I think a hundred million dollars in box office opening weekend, which it certainly did. Um, or maybe it was a hundred million total and it crushed it in the first week. And, um, and then, uh, I, I still remember the, you, me, uh, host of others flying out from Atlanta, um, Kelly Flatow deserves, uh, deserves Kelly for all the hard work she did on this, uh. Previous, uh, guest on your show, um, to meet with the studio on the Coke plane. And, um, we got it. And we got it because, and this certainly wasn't my idea, um, but it was somebody's good idea. Um, what, what we did was we turned it into what I think may still be the world's largest literacy program. Um, LT: wow. Seth Matlins: And, um, that was kind of the basis of the activation, um, at retail, which is how it, how and why it worked for the Coca-Cola company.[00:13:00] But you all gave away, I don't know how many books, I think millions. Um, and um, yeah, that was that one. DC: Alright, so Brand Nerds, uh, as remarkable of a story that is, Jimmy's underplaying it a little bit. I want to add a bit more color into this. It wasn't as if once, um, the. President of CAA and the CEO of the Coca-Cola company met at Sun Valley and DAF said he was in that, uh, that the studio and JK were like, of course we'd be happy to do it. That's not, that's not what happened. Uh, so between, uh, the meeting where we took the plane out, uh, for the meeting with, um, the studio pitch decks have to be developed, [00:14:00] concepts have to be developed, narrative has to be developed, budgets have to be developed, and all of that, every step of the way. Jimmy, Kelly, many others were involved. It may have been, um, the most prepared. I have ever been in that situation. Uh, brand nerds. Our producers don't like us to date our shows, but we are speaking to Jimmy on the, on the Wednesday before the 60th Super Bowl, which is gonna be happening in, uh, lts neck of the woods in Santa Clara. Tom Brady was asked a question this week from, uh, a talking head about is it possible to be possible to be over prepared the two weeks between the end of the last championship game, uh, uh, AFC versus NFC and the Super Bowl two weeks? And Tom, Tom Brady's response [00:15:00] was, no, it's not possible to possible to be over-prepared. It gives you more time to be prepared for any possible outcome. Jimmy made certain that as his, we were his client, Coca-Cola. We were prepared for any possible question. There was nothing that the head of the film studio asked us that we were not ready for, and we had many more answers in the bank, in the chamber, ready. So, uh, Jimmy, I just wanna personally thank you for helping us secure that as the only, the only sponsor to a property that has stood the test of time. So, brother, thank you for what you did. Seth Matlins: Yeah. It's a bad time. 26 years later, you finally said, thanks. Uh, look, you know, uh, uh, I, I played a part in, you [00:16:00] know, that doesn't happen without Richard and Brian and Kelly, a million other people. Yeah. We got, we gotta give Jan, Jan, her, her, her flowers. Jan for sure. Jan. Jan Hall. Jan Hall. But it was actually, you know, it was something that Rick Nicita said to me. It was either the night before the meeting or, um, Rick Nida, legendary agent, managing partner of CAA at the time, the night before the meeting or, or maybe even as we were driving there, where I realized that, and I remember saying this to you, our biggest, the Coca-Cola's biggest asset was also its biggest threat in, in, uh, to not getting it, which was its size and scale. Mm-hmm. So we create, we called an audible, um, as we went into the meeting, and Steve Jones, I think was the one who was at the time the global CMO of the company. Mm-hmm. Delivered the message, which is, we can go as big as you want, or as small as you want. Mm-hmm. Because she didn't want ubi, Jo didn't want JK didn't want ubiquity. [00:17:00] Mm-hmm. Onto to precision, right? Mm-hmm. And, um. That, that one, that one conversation that Rick had with somebody became, I think the, the, the insight that became the fulcrum of the deal. Um, and we, we modified and I think, you know, if there's a lesson for your audience, it's, um, insight matters more than fact. LT: Ooh, that's great. DC: I think that's that, uh, Larry, I, I think that's a mic drop. And Larry, you've listened to this. Uh, you, you may have heard me tell parts of it, and there's no way that I could even approach telling the complete story without Jimmy, but brother, what, what are your thoughts about this, uh, hearing it? LT: Well, it's a great story, and you know, what I'm struck with to ask both of you gentlemen, and, but starting with Seth, is that, you know, you, you refer to the Pepsi meeting as the July 4th massacre. Did, i'm imagining you learned a lot from the mistakes they made. Um, what, [00:18:00] can you talk to that a little bit? Seth Matlins: I mean. I don't know a lot. I don't know. I mean, look, it's, it's years later. I don't even remember what I've forgotten. But, but I think the most important thing that we learned, um, coming out of that was, um, and I'm not sure anybody knew it until that meeting took place, because I think, you know, a bad meeting for somebody else gave the author and other folks the opportunity to react and then build constraints and definitions that maybe they weren't even aware of. LT: Right. Seth Matlins: I think, I think, you know, what Pepsi did was a massive promotional campaign. It would've been very Pepsi and, you know, Pepsi's done cultural marketing brilliantly for decades. LT: Mm-hmm. Seth Matlins: Um, but I think, again, the insight that came out of it is, um, a JK did not want to see, any, [00:19:00] anything from outside Harry's universe in Harry's universe. So there were gonna be no Pepsi cans, like, you know mm-hmm. Or Coke cans for that matter, or any cans, um, on Harry's bedside table, or in the cafeteria, or in, you know, the Hogwarts assembly hall. Um, and that, that was important, right? Which is the preservation of that universe, um, the protection of that universe. And, you know, all credit, you know, despite her being despicable today, all credit to her, um, for protecting her IP and her vision and her creative, um, progeny. Uh, but I don't, I don't know that we learned a lot more from it, but we might have. I just, you know, I'm holding people minded, LT: but, but as you said, that's an insight, rather. That's an insight that I'm sure you know, was imbued in everything that you guys were making sure you weren't gonna make that mistake, right? Seth Matlins: That's right. That's right. LT: Yeah. DC: Larry, Larry, can I answer [00:20:00] from my perspective. LT: Please. DC: What a lot of, uh, agencies, consultants, people that were external to the Coca-Cola company would do to try to get the Coca-Cola to, uh, company to move and do something different is they would use Pepsi as a threat all the time. LT: You, but you and I faced it all the time. DC: Yep. It like, if you all don't do this, Pepsi will do it. Alright. LT: And we would roll our eyes all the time, by the way. DC: Go ahead. All the time. So that never worked with us. Nope. But what, what Seth and the team did was none of that. There was never a, hey guys, you know, Pepsi's gonna get their act together and you gotta, there was none of that. What, what, what, Jim? Seth Matlins: Well, in, in fairness, Pepsi was already, you know, DOA, um, for this particular property. So, you know, I don't know if that's on us or just that July 4th massacre. DC: Uh, take the w please. Seth Matlins: All right. I'll take the W. [00:21:00] DC: Uh, it, but it was clear, however, to us in the, um, in the inimitable words of that poet that hails from Detroit like I do, Eminem, we had one shot. Do not miss your chance to, to blow this opportunity comes once in a lifetime. You gotta, alright. So we knew we only had one shot. And, uh, and that's where the, the preparation comes in. And for me to work day to day with Jimmy, someone who understood not only the quantitative part of marketing. But the instinctual part of marketing, I felt like I was talking to a kindred spirit. So we quickly developed a shorthand that allowed us to, on both sides, play our role in making that happen. Seth Matlins: Yeah, yeah. We absolutely did. DC: [00:22:00] Yeah. Seth Matlins: Because there, there was a lot of selling to do, um, along the way and you know, just because the CEO of a, one of the biggest companies in the world says, yeah, I want in, um, doesn't mean that the company lines up beside behind that point of view, uh. DC: Facts. Seth Matlins: And, and, um, yeah, you're always selling to someone. LT: That's right. DC: Alright, we'll go to the, uh, the next section. This is five questions, so this goes down as follows. Jimmy, I hit you with a question. Larry hit you with a question. We go back and forth until we arrive at five. I start this thing off. Take yourself back to when maybe you were shorty or could be early in your career where you had a branding experience that blew your mind. You, you were engaged with it, which in what you thought was 15, 20, 30 minutes and you were into this thing for like three [00:23:00] or four hours. It could be a show, an article of clothing, a brand or whatever it is almost like your first love. What was this first brand love for you? Seth Matlins: Um, I mean that, that's an easy one for me 'cause I actually have it tattooed on my arm. Um, so I'm 12 years old and uh, I grew up in New York City, in Manhattan. I'm 12 years old and I switched schools seventh grade. And I go from a very good public school to a very. Fancy private school. Um, and when I go to this private school, um, which read like my class list, read, like, you know, the first Forbes 400 list, which came out a handful of years later. Um, the most privileged people in the world, or at least this sons and daughters are the most privileged people in the world. Mm-hmm. Um, all my friends, my new friends, they were all wearing Izod, Izod, [00:24:00] Lacoste Mm-hmm. Right? And so that little alligator, I was like, I gotta get me some of that. I wanted, I wanted to fit in. I want it to belong. Right? Mm-hmm. And it's like, can we go get some of these shirts? And she's like, no, can't. My parents were divorced. My mom's like, no, can't afford it. Parents are divorced. And, you know, as, as. Some, some who have grown up in that situation. Many have, you know, that, you know, occasionally, Connor, just the way you guys are saying, could play Coke off of Pepsi and Pepsi off of Coke sometimes, or at least try, right? You could definitely play a divorced mom off a divorced dad. Mm-hmm. Um, and I went to my father and I was like, Hey, can we go get some of these shirts? And he's like, how many colors do you want? Um, and, and so the Lacoste and I'll just, I don't know, can, can you guys see it right here? Oh, yeah, yeah, LT: yeah. Seth Matlins: But this is, is, um, it's an abstract interpretation of it. This is the tale, this is the mouth. It was done a handful of years ago, I can't remember [00:25:00] by whom. But I think the whole portfolio of abstract interpretations of the famous crocodile were done to celebrate, uh, 75th or. 50th anniversary of the brand, and I, I got it. Um, I got it tattooed because, um, of a handful of things. Uh, one, I think it absolutely, um, that moment, that time being 12, um, um, wanting something. And of course when my mom said I couldn't have it, that it just, or we couldn't afford it, you know, that just made me want it more. Yep. Um, taught me a handful of lessons as a marketer and as a human being. The human being one's interesting, which is, don't be a superficial, materialistic fuck, but I am still, I was then, um, no, I just have a, I just, I just have, um, a bit more maturity as I approach it, a bit more self-awareness. But, um, that brand, that logo, that mark, um, that product, um, taught [00:26:00] me lessons, um, about. I used some of these words a moment ago, but the power of belonging, the importance of belonging, the needing to be part of the, needing to be, uh, to, to, to, um, reflect the ideals and values. Superficial though they may have been of a community, um, even if that community was just, you know, five or six, you know, other 12 year olds. Um, and, and um, it also taught me very importantly, the power of how a brand can facilitate that doesn't just create the want, um, or, or said differently. The emotional need, right? Want and need in an emotional context can be, you know, hard to distinguish between. Um, but it, it was, I think my first lesson in the power of brand and, you know, that's why I carry it on my arm, both to remind myself not to be a superficial, materialistic fuck, but also, um, of the power of, of what we all [00:27:00] do. DC: Hmm. LT: I love that story. That is so deep. And, and again, 12 is that age, right? Like where, as you said, the power of belonging is so deep, right? Um, and the facilitation of brands being able to actually help you do that is, is so deep. Um, what did, are you looking back on that, Seth? When did you sort of realize that? I'm, I'm guessing you didn't know it as a 12-year-old. Seth Matlins: No, no, I'm not, I'm not. It's a good question LT. Um, I. I think, I think as I, as I started my career, um, and as I started building brands, LT: ah, yeah, yeah, Seth Matlins: yeah. And, and you know, my first job in marketing, uh, my first job was as the third person in the US marketing Department for Evian, when nobody knew why they should be drinking bottled water. Mm-hmm. Um, or at least bottled water that [00:28:00] wasn't in a jug. Um, right. And, and you know, Evian was a brand that very similarly, right. Like, you know, it was four x the price of other competitors, like world's most generic substance. So a lot of what I learned here, I I, along with all the people who I reported to and worked with, 'cause I was, you know, special events coordinator, um, applied as we built that trademark and that brand. Um, and, and so I think, I think it was probably, you know. When I started doing what I do. LT: Love that. DC: I'm curious about something. I am thinking Jimmy of the time between the craving of Lacoste shirts to the satisfaction of that craving. When you got it, [00:29:00] had you gone to your father, first it would've been craving. And how many colors do you want? But because you went to your mother, first it was craving and then then you got to your father, and then how many colors do you want? Which makes me wonder, for brands, no matter the category, what is the value of the separation between craving and satisfaction? Seth Matlins: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really interesting question. Um, and I think outside of, you know, a handful of brands at the, the literally the Ferraris of the world, like, just 'cause you want a Ferrari doesn't mean you're getting a Ferrari. And if you have a Ferrari, they'll, they'll take that shit away. Yeah. Um, look, I think, I think brands, you know, brands grow and businesses grow by existing to create and then satisfy desire.[00:30:00] Yes. Um, and so I think my mother's, you know, my mother's, um, point of view maybe wanted a little bit more, but I don't think it would've been any different if you don't think so. Okay. No, 'cause because it wasn't about, you know, the look, you know, there's this trope that in romantic relationships, you know, oftentimes sometimes it's about the chase, right? DC: Yep. Yep. Seth Matlins: Yeah, I was chasing this, you know, crocodile logo, but, um, I, I don't think it's the same thing in business as it is in romance anyway, to just draw one analogy, which is create the desire, satisfy the desire, um, and then keep satisfying the desire. LT: Yeah. Well also that 12-year-old boy, sorry, Dee, that 12-year-old boy's gotta feel that belonging. Like, it's so, you know, that's a, that's a sixth, seventh grader who's just, you know, if, if, [00:31:00] and, and that, if that facilitates it, man, that's powerful. Seth Matlins: Yeah. Yeah. Well, LT I think you use a, a, a terrifically important word, which is the facilitation, right? Yes. Um, you know, I'm writing a book right now based on, uh, I can't remember if you said it in the introduction. I think you might have. I'm writing a book titled The CEO's Guide to Marketing. Yep. I'm at a point in a chapter where I'm, I'm explaining to a Fortune 500 CEO/CFO and board member who don't understand marketing. 'cause they don't have any marketing experience. That there is almost never a direct line between what you manufacture and what you sell. Well, there may be a direct line, but they're not the same thing. What you manufacture and what you sell. And I use sell and marketing, um, uh, interchangeably. 'cause marketing's job is to sell, um, right. Like Coke wasn't selling fizzy water. No. Right. Ferrari's not selling a car. Um, dove's [00:32:00] not selling soap and yeah. Nomas not selling a meal. Um, yeah. There, uh, IBM isn't selling, you know, consulting services. Yeah. Right. And, and well, they are, but um, if they just sold consulting services, they would be a lot less successful. Right. There's a difference between what you make and what we the customer buy. And if you do not understand that, that is almost always, always, always. And I don't care if it's a gazillion dollar cloud computing contract mm-hmm. Or a can of soda, always emotionally driven, oftentimes, subconsciously, and then rationalized intellectually, which is why, just as an example, one of my favorite ads of all, all time, speaking of IBM. So in 19, and I, I do reference this a lot, is a 1974 mainframe IBM print ad. Right. Just a picture of a IBM box. Right. But the headline was nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. LT: Yep. Seth Matlins: Right. Because they spoke directly and [00:33:00] immediately. Um, so the biggest barrier to purchase was just, this is a big fucking purchase. I don't wanna get fired if I make the wrong decision. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. So they, they sold safety and security and being able to put dinner on my table. They didn't sell the box. LT: Yeah. Seth Matlins: Genius. Just genius work. LT: That's so deep. De you started to say something. I know Seth and I we're, we're talking DC: all, all good. I'll make this super quick about Lacoste and the uh, and the alligator. Even today that brand is, is a bit like if you know, you know LT: Right. DC: I don't typically drop names 'cause it's not my thing. I was recently, uh, having a, a conversation at a, uh, at a conference with Jermaine Dupree and I think, uh, Pharrell came up as the creative, uh, lead of, uh, Louis Vuitton. And he said, I wanna lead Lacoste. He said, I, I think if, if I got in [00:34:00] there I could really do some things and I'm now connecting that Jimmy to your story. And I think they're due for something big. Should they seize it? 'cause you're not the only one thinking what you're thinking. 'cause now I've heard it from both you and Jermaine Dre. Seth Matlins: Well, it's, it's definitely a brand with, with, in my opinion. Um, and, and I don't know that I'm the target anymore. I don't know that I'm the audience. Some real latent equity, right? It was old school brand. Um, and. I, I still have quite a few of 'em. I wear 'em occasionally. Um, I feel like they got some work to do on product and design. Like I wear the old school stuff though. Solid color. LT: Right? Seth Matlins: Know pk. Um, but yeah, I'd like to see somebody, uh, do for Lacoste, but you know, my friend Chris Davis and others have done it. New Balance and, you know, so many brands where you, you revitalize and energize and, and completely as a [00:35:00] consequence change the growth trajectory of, of great brands or potentially great brands. DC: Cool. All right, Larry? LT: Yes. Uh, let's go to the second question and just to put a bow on that it, the Sergio line d you know, you're reintroducing your brand to a new consumer every day is really appropriate here. Um, so, okay, second question, Seth. So who is Hatters having the most influence on your career? Seth Matlins: Um, I would say Evian, uh, that, that, that experience, um, was like, it's, it's amazing to me the number of the foundational, um, knowledge and, and maybe even more importantly, the foundational, um, perspective and point of view that what's now almost 40 years ago continues to have, that continues to show up every single day. I do what I do. Um, and, um, Evian has [00:36:00] mentioned more than once, uh, my experience with it, what I learned, um, while there over five years, um, uh, more than once as I write this book. Absolutely the most important work experience, um, marketing experience I've ever had. Hmm. LT: Was there any one person that was, uh. The person that really, you know, at Evian that elevated like, wow, where the light bulb really came on, Seth, for you? Seth Matlins: I, I mean, there were definitely, I mean, I, you know, three people come to mind for very different reasons. Two CEOs and, and my first boss there. Um, and actually, you know, once I start, you know, we did, we were working very closely with TBWA at the time, and they were incredibly important. But I think the most important thing and the greatest privilege of my career, um, was [00:37:00] being the third person in the US Marketing Department for, you know, a business that was very established outside the US was nascent here, um, had history and nuance and, and, um, and ethos. Um, but I mean, I was given the permission to fuck up constantly because nothing any of us could have really done would've changed the growth trajectory, which at that time was just, you know, hockey stick straight up to the right. Um, and, and so, you know, I got to do, I got to do everything 'cause I was third person in it. We were growing so quickly. I got to make mistakes. I got to create, I got to sit in on meetings. I never, ever would've had the opportunity to sit in on, I mean, I was sitting with the CEO of the company in my first weeks right. Of my [00:38:00] career. Like, you don't get that often, but I'll, I'll tell you a quick, um. A quick story that I, I think I, I've, I, I talk about this in some speeches I give, um, it was my second or third week at Evian special events coordinator, which meant I hung banners and placed coolers at tennis tournaments. 'cause we were driving awareness, right. Banners and coolers, television cameras that was, you know, need to drive awareness top of a then linear funnel. Um, da da would sample and drive trial at the, around the event. Mm-hmm. But that was my job, coolers and banners. Um, and I was sitting in my cubicle, this is so long ago, I did not have a computer in my cubicle. Um, and, and the CEO comes by, and this is a guy who had grown up inside PepsiCo and whose father was a legendary, um, legendary head of McKinsey. And, and David was, you know, he was a young guy and very cool, very fucking smart. [00:39:00] And he says to me, Hey. Two to three weeks in, he's like, what'd you do to move the business forward today? And I was like, I, I'm like racing to try and figure out what the fuck I'm gonna say to this guy. 'cause I had no idea. Right. Um, and what I ultimately said is, I, I don't know, but I don't think I caused it to fall back. Um, which he, he seemed to accept in the moment and walked on. But in that moment. Call it two weeks in. He taught me one of the most valuable lessons of my career. Um, and it's one of the reasons companies aren't growing as fast as they should be of any size right now, which is even the guy whose job it is to place banners and hang, uh, place coolers and hang banners is responsible for moving the business forward today. Everybody's responsible for moving the business forward today, no matter what their job. That requires cohesion and integration and, and clarity of objective intent and understanding your role. And, and that [00:40:00] lesson, I see how few people at so many levels within an organization feel that they understand what it is that they do that helps move the business forward today and many, many in particular. Um, earlier in their career, feel completely disconnected from moving the business forward today when they're inextricably connected to it. And, um, you know, we can look at that as a problem. I look at it as an opportunity LT: that's deep. Uh, the only thing I'll add to that before we de go to the next question is that that's something that the leaders like your leader did at, at Evian. They need to imbue that organizationally, right? So people do understand it. The the assistant, the assistants, the assistants, they need to understand it. So everybody does have that mentality, right? Seth Matlins: A hundred percent. LT: D, next question? DC: You [00:41:00] actually set it up. LT: Yeah. DC: With one of your answers to the second question. 'cause you said as the third person entered Evian, you had permission to fuck up many times. Which leads me to the third question. What's the biggest fuck up you can think of in your entire career? The big stinky danky, wet fuck up that you made, Jimmy. Not, not some. Well, you know, my, my manager said I should do this, so I did it and it fucked up. That you fucked up. And more importantly, what did you learn from it? Seth Matlins: Yeah, I mean, lots of fuckups. Um, the one that like makes me cringe still isn't that long ago. Probably. It's just like five years ago. So, um, I was at Endeavor and um, this [00:42:00] was a moment in time. It was pre COVID, so maybe it's seven years ago. Um. When, um, I don't know if those in your audience will remember, but the guy who founded Papa John's, a guy named John Schneider, was recorded by one of his agencies using the N word. Um, he was mm-hmm. Appropriately, um, removed from the company. Um, and, um, in the wake of it, every agency they had resigned the business, um, new CEO, new leadership. This is like within days, weeks. Um, there was somebody at Endeavor who was at the time on the board of Papa John's, and they were looking for a new ad agency. Um, I can't remember who had the business. It might have been FCB if, if I'm right, who resigned it. Um, they were looking for a new ad agency. The board member who was at the, our company got us into the pitch. Now we had a handful of [00:43:00] ad people, but we really weren't an ad agency. But, you know, these people came from grade agencies. They'd made great work before. Um, but we might not have been right for the assignment. I was head of strategy. Um, longer story short, and then I'll get to the specific answer to your question. Um, we won the pitch. We beat out some great agencies. Like this pitch meeting was three hours long. People were crying and it, they were so raw and so sensitive and so, mm-hmm. Hurt. Um, it was, it was super intense. But, um, the mistake that I am. I really drove us to make was, um, got the voice of the category complete to say nothing of the business completely wrong. What, what I saw in the moment was an opportunity to lead with, um, [00:44:00] what, uh, the current administration would labeled pejoratively as woke, which I'm like, I'd rather be woke than asleep, but that's just me. Um, um, um, to, to actually not to advocate for social justice, right? To, to really lean into this guy's racism and intolerance and hate and use it as a fulcrum to differentiate Papa John's from the rest of the category, um, by really standing up and, and standing for and doing good. Um, which I think was. Kind of the difference between something making some degree of sense. And in that moment in time, woke wasn't yet a bad word. DEI right. Was actually a good thing. Go figure. Diversity, equity, inclusion. LT: Yeah. What Seth Matlins: concept? Yeah. What a fucking world do we live in. Right? What a country. Um, but it didn't make sense in [00:45:00] practice. Nobody was looking for their pizza to stand up for social justice. LT: Right? Seth Matlins: Um, they didn't want you to use the a word, right? They want you to be anti-social justice. Um, but we, we just got the tonality of the category wrong. Um, mm-hmm. And, um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I really cringe at some of the work that, um, I think I, I really made people kind of embrace, uh, because I got it wrong. Um, I'll tell you in tangential, um, tangentially, good lesson. It was about a year later, maybe not even, I don't know how long our relationship with them lasted. It wasn't terribly long. Um, we deserve to be fired. Um, sitting in a meeting, they had a new CMOA guy had come from the QSR business, um, and sitting in a meeting with this new CMO [00:46:00] and the CEO, who I was pretty good friends with and at the time, and, you know, it was clear things were not going particularly well for anybody. And the CEO said to me, um, he's like, why do you think, and I had our CCO there and I think our head of account, he's like, why do you think things aren't going well? Um, and I said, well. Two reasons. You neither give nor take direction, right? You can give direction, then it's up to us to, to follow it right. To within, you know, the within reason and doing what we think is best for the client. 'cause like, if you don't give or take direction, everybody's just chasing ass shall not, you know what I mean? Um, that that's a different kinda show. Yeah. That's, that's not what I mean, chasing their ass. Important word was missing. Um, and I was like, no agency's gonna be successful on your behalf. Um, and uh, turns out it was right because the next agency they [00:47:00] hired didn't, didn't have great success, but I think they, they have found their way, uh, back as far as I know. But I don't eat fast food pizza, so, you know, I don't, but yeah, I really fucked that up. LT: Ooh, I love that story on so many levels. And thank you for I Seth Matlins: hate that story, by the way. I hate LT: it. Well, I'm sure you do. And, and by the way, Seth, we all have those stories. Yeah. We all have. We, we just got it wrong. You know what I'm struck with too, Seth, is that I think your zeal in, in the moment, like you said, you wanted a right or wrong, you know, as it relates to the, the ridiculous Papa John's owner. I could still see that guy's goofy grin. He always made me cringe, you know, um, with him saying the N word. You wanted to, to, to rebound from that when the reality is you, you would, I'm gonna go back to what you just said a few minutes ago. You probably should have asked your question. Well, like your Evian, uh, uh, CEO said, what are you doing to move the business [00:48:00] forward today? Because that you lost the fundamentals, it sounds like. Seth Matlins: Yeah, I think that's, I think that's very well said, LT. And I think, look what you know, again on paper, right? Like if you, I'll draw an analogy to John Donahoe, disaster of a tenure as CEO of Nike. Um, everything he did on paper, which is, oh, let's capture more of the margin. Go DTC, let's focus more on the funnel, bottom of the funnel on paper. It might have made sense. Well, it definitely didn't end the world on paper. What? And they're still fighting back from it, right. Elliot and Nicole and all those people are fighting back and, and as far as I can tell, doing a great job getting back. Um, but it's a great lesson that even a brand like Nike can be tarnished if it is not cared for. I actually, I'm not sure that's the right metaphor. Like I don't think the brand was tarnished. It was right. Ignored. Um, LT: well said. It wasn't, as I said, Sergio's line before, you have to [00:49:00] reintroduce your brand every day, every day, every day. It wasn't, that wasn't happening. Seth Matlins: And so what, what I, what I, and we saw when I take responsibility, but I'm, I, I try and talk in wees as a, as a practice in the plural. Was an opportunity to create some real meaningful differentiation, right? Meaningful differentiation is a strategic imperative, especially in a category. Putting aside, you know, the importance of taste in the QSR pizza category. Yep. Like, you know, Domino's, Papa John's, Caesar's, you know, within a degree they're all gonna get the job done. You may prefer A over B. We were really looking for a way to stand out besides right. Category prerequisites. Category thresholds, like, you know, and every category has 'em. Here it was taste and speed of delivery, which dominoes owned. Um, and so right idea or well, right intent, bad idea, terrible [00:50:00] execution. And, and I wanna be clear if any of the creatives who worked on that business are listening, that was on me, not you. Yeah. LT: I love that you said that. We, we talk about that all the time. Take God, you know, like you're talking about o overall in life, we all need to say, I effed up. It's on me. You know? And by the way, everybody then responds because then everyone else says, you know, when it's on them, they take responsibility too. It's when you start pointing figures that we, we all get in trouble. Seth Matlins: Yeah. I mean, I'll point fingers at my wife and my kids, but it's usually their fault. DC: Yeah. They, they don't give a fuck. Just Seth Matlins: No, they do not. They do not. DC: Alright, before we go to this next question, uh, uh, here, I, uh, I just want to revisit something you said, Jimmy, which is, uh, it was a category tone miss. This is not unique to the story. LT: No. DC: No many [00:51:00] make this miss in their careers. High level, very smart people. Make this miss. Might I remind folks of 2017 Pepsi and Kendall Jenner? Okay. Seth Matlins: I still, I still have an image, uh, uh, of it on my phone. DC: Okay, let me, me. Okay, let me, that's good. Let me remind people of that. Go look it up. Brand Nerds, social justice play with Kendall Jenner. It did, it did not work. Here is what worked for Papa John's when they went back to this. This is the category. It's a category of fun enjoyment. Shaq, when Shaq shows up, he fits with the category. He's a large affable man who probably consumes voluminous diversity of foods and he is funny. That works. That works. Seth Matlins: We may have, Shaq was showing up as we were leaving. DC: [00:52:00] Okay. Seth Matlins: And you know, Shaq came in, I think, having bought some franchises or something, right? DC: He did. Seth Matlins: I, it is possible. I don't think we did the first Shaq ad, I think the next agency did. But you're, you're absolutely right. Um, and he's, he's a great example to continue to continue making that point within the same moment in time. DC: Absolutely. All right, Larry. LT: All right, next question, Seth. Uh, so regarding technology and marketing, you have seen a lot. Can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech? And this is as it relates to marketing or areas that they should be leery and simply avoid. Seth Matlins: Well, I don't know, LT, if in the que, first of all, I'm definitely not the best person to answer this, so I'm gonna give you kind of more of a, a, um a general answer, and I don't know if by tech, your question is like literally [00:53:00] technology and skews towards the AI of it all, or if it's also inclusive of data. But LT: it's up to you, you, you take it whichever way you want. Seth Matlins: I think that, I think that a lot of marketing suffers from, um, confusing objective strategies and tactics, objectives with strategy, strategies with tactics, and you see it over and over and over again. Um, but I think as relates specifically to your question, tangentially, um, technology and data, I don't care. They're just tools, right? They, they inform or they should inputs, right? They can help shape. Outputs together, a good input and a good output create a good and positive outcome, but an outcome is a consequence. And I think too many, um, CMOs and marketers, and I talk a lot about this, have confused, um, data with intelligence, data with insight. [00:54:00] Now sometimes there is intelligence and insight in there, but they have confused the, the input as an output. Um, some of that I think is very human right, which is uncertain times, concerns about jobs, right? It's very easy to blame a decision on data, right? But data isn't always right. Tech isn't always the right tool. Um, we, we have to get, um, clear on what the means are and what the ends are. Um, and, and I think, I think, um, you know, I was talking to a friend of mine, brilliant, CMO, uh, I think it was just last week and we were talking about. As, as one does AI. And, and they said to me, um, you know, I just worry that, um, humans are gonna start defaulting to, to the LLMs output. I was like, honestly, it doesn't worry me at all because humans have been defaulting to data's output for the last 20 years, and it hasn't served marketing or marketers very well. Right. Brands have never mattered, uh, less than they do now. [00:55:00] Um, the work isn't, uh, for lots of reasons. It's not data's fault. It's how we use the data. It's how we look to the data. It's how, um, and whether we interrogate the data. Um, so bringing it back to the top, it's, it's, you know, it's a great tool if you can use it well, but you don't need a hammer to baste your turkey. I don't, I, I don't know where that came from. LT: That was a good one. It goes back to what you said, Larry. That was terrible. Seth Matlins: That was a terrible, it really was. And, and I'm also vegetarian, so I don't know why LT: No. That, that was really bad. But you said at the very top of the show, which is really deep, that insights matter more than facts and that's sort of where you're as, Seth Matlins: as relates to marketing. LT: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. D, what you thinking? DC: I'm thinking next question. LT: That was great. Great. Let's do it. DC: What are you most proud of Jimmy. Seth Matlins: Professionally? DC: Doesn't matter. [00:56:00] Take it anywhere you want. Seth Matlins: Well, you know, my kids for sure. Um, but I don't think your audience cares about my kids, so I'll make it professionally. Excuse me. Um, it's a pretty easy one, uh, for me, which is, and Lt you, you, you alluded to it, um, to the beginning of it actually in, in your introduction. Um, so. I was CMO of Live Nation for a hot minute. Uh, and in 2011 I left and was 2011, maybe 2010. Can't remember. I started, I, I, I started a women's brand and my intent was to build, um, the world's most meaningful women's brand. Wasn't intended to be the biggest, but I really wanted it to matter because I didn't see, um, admitting to not being the target. I didn't see a lot of brands that I thought kind of were meaningful. Now, by the way, I could push back on myself with that right now 'cause [00:57:00] of, you know, my Lacoste story. But, uh, uh, uh, stop digressing. So. I, I set out with this brand to make the world a better place, in particular for my daughter who was like six at the time. And I got pretty versed in, um, uh, a lot of the work that Dove was doing at the time. Um, and pretty versed in the, um, mental, physical and emotional health challenges that photoshopped images, um, where somebody kind of took my face and, you know, put a full head of hair on it and, uh, put a six pack on my belly and turned somebody, usually a woman into somebody. They weren't to sell a perfume, a bar of soap, uh, lipstick was having. Had had massively deleterious effects on, on those health, on the health of generations of women, increasing number of boys and men. LT: And this is before AI was really involved too. I just wanna make that point, which is even, Seth Matlins: yeah, but I mean, photo Photoshop is, it's, and [00:58:00] I use Photoshop generically, right? Point a finger. Adobe. Um, again, it's a tool. It's how we use the tool, right? Um, and, and so longer story, shorter, um, through a lot of luck and good fortune and other people, I had a bill in Congress called the Truth and Advertising Act that. As the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, who oversees false and deceptive advertising, both to reconsider their definition of false and deceptive advertising, because as far as I could tell, these were false and deceptive ads. But more importantly, ask them to coalesce a community that included advertisers, ad agencies, you know, the ecosystem to talk about what could be done to protect the health of, of these generations. Um, the generations to come in particular. Um, the bill was introduced in 2014, uh, reintroduced in 2016. Just a side note, one of the things I'm so very proud of is that, [00:59:00] um, John Lewis was a co-sponsor of this bill The Great DC: Oh wow. Seth Matlins: The great, the legendary John Lewis, Keith Ellison, who at the time was the first Muslim Congress person in the history of the United States, was a co uh, a co-sponsor of the bill. But I knew that the bill was never gonna become a law. Um, nor did I need it to, I wanted it to exert pressure on, on people to self-regulate. You don't need regulation if you're self-regulated. Um, when I got to Endeavor, the first cold call I made, um, was to the then CMO of CVS. CVS had two years earlier, kicked out tobacco and tobacco related products from their stores because of the, like, how do you be a health company and sell cigarettes? LT: Yep. Seth Matlins: Which was a baller move, right. Like that had, it was billions of dollars of bottom line consequences near term as they, that LT: goes back to the brand though, to understanding the brand. Seth Matlins: Yes, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And these [01:00:00] guys, they were real. LT: Mm-hmm. Seth Matlins: So a guy named Norman Dere, who was CMO, um, there he is now, the Chief Growth Officer, general Motors, um, started talking to Norman and. Over the course of almost a year of conversation, we got to know about this, uh, what he got to know about the Truth and Advertising Act. And, um, we created the CVS Beauty mark, which was basically the act writ large and applied at retail. The reason I called CVS was because of the power of retail, right? Retail doesn't just control what happens in their store. They influence what manufacturers do. You look at what Walmart has done, little known for the environmental, um, safety of the planet. So much of influenced, you know, packaging sizes, concentration, less plastic, less water, less energy at scale, massive scale. They don't get enough credit for it. So we created the CVS beauty mark, where CVS, A [01:01:00] committed to not Photoshop any of their creative, but they don't make that much creative, right? The real power was their influence over the OEMs, the manufacturers, the L'Oreals, the Lancom, the others of the world. And they said, um, you can do whatever you want with the POS, the point of sale you send us, you don't have to change a thing, but we are gonna add a CVS beauty mark. It says, you can go into a CVS right now and walk through the beauty aisle and you'll see it. Beauty unaltered for those things that don't materially cha, change the shape color. Um, uh, skin tone, et cetera, et cetera, of the human in it. Um, and if you do, we will say digitally altered, right? So it was a watermark to let you know what was real and what wasn't real. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and, you know, you go into a store or you go into CVS and you'll see, I, I was just in, and John Legend has some point of sale for a, a, I think a moisturizer he sells. And you can see [01:02:00] John's, you can see the humanity and age of John's skin, right? Which is, he's John, you know, he is got some crow's feet or whatever they're called. Um, you walk into another drugstore chain and that same image is. Perhaps fewer crow's feet. Um, so incredibly proud of that. Um, grateful to Norman and everybody who at CVS who championed it and they got behind it in a, in just an enormous way. And it's still in store, I don't know, five years later. Really proud of that. LT: That's great. That's really cool. That's a great story. Thanks for sharing. You should be proud of that, that, because that has a really positive, as you talked about, outcome on society because that permeates a lot, a lot of, a lot of folks. Um, CVS being who they are. All right. De should we go to the next section? DC: Do it. LT: All right, Seth, this is, uh, our next section which we affectionately [01:03:00] call What's popping? What's popping? Indeed. DC: What's popping? LT: So this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply have something happening in around marketing today that we think is good fod or forward discussion. And we think we have a really. Good one, uh, Seth for the three of us to, uh, bring it to chat about. So, uh, Seth, you probably saw this, you know, uh, your, uh, previous incarnation with Rock the Vote, um, earlier this year of 2026, uh, the, the ellisons who, uh, are, are in the process of, uh, who, who have already bought Paramount. We won't get into them. I have my views, I'm sure you do about them, but I, we, this goes to the brand that David Ellison wants to bring the music back to MTV. This was in Hollywood Reporter and it says, can MTV bring the music back? David Ellison seems to be betting it, that it can, the Paramount CEO is keen to revive the once iconic brand and is talking to major companies and music industry figures about strategic partnerships, including an [01:04:00] economic stake. In MTV, this is per Bloomberg. Such a strategic deal could give it an expanded access to music rights or artists. And now of course, music videos are as popular as ever, but their home is YouTube and of course, to a lesser extent, TikTok, Instagram, Spotify, apple Music, et cetera. So, uh, that's just the lead off. What, uh, what say you, Seth and D, what do you guys think about that? DC: I wanna hear from Jimmy. Seth Matlins: Um, I, I don't think they have a chance in hell. Um, because of what you said, lt, which is, LT: Yes. Seth Matlins: The, and it goes back to what I was talking about earlier, which is meaningful differentiation. Uh, my need, and I am not a music video consumer, but the need of the customer seems to be pretty well served. LT: Yep. Seth Matlins: You know, and, and I wouldn't wanna go up against Neil Mohan and everybody at YouTube. I wouldn't wanna go up against TikTok. Like, what, what will, I could see why [01:05:00] the. Um, the, the music industry is interested in it. They're just looking for more promotion, more outlets, more control. I get that. But from a a customer consumer perspective, I don't know. What are you gonna do that's differentiated and meaningful? And that changes the nature of it. And I think, you know, my kids are 19 and 20, like, I'm not even sure they know what MTV was. LT: Right? Seth Matlins: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, 'cause MTV hasn't been MTV in a long time, right? Like, and I'll tell you though, you know, I'm old enough that when I watch, um, Landman, great show by the way. Um. The MTV enter, the MTV productions logo comes up in front of a show about a Texas oil guy and his family. I'm like, it's so dissonant. Right? It's so, because mm, I don't think it's that dissonant to my kids. And of course they've done great work 'cause an entertainment label. They've done, produced some extraordinary things over time. But from a music video [01:06:00] perspective, like I, I, I just, what's the reason? Why, why will anyone give a fuck? And maybe there's a reason. I'm not saying there is LT: no, no, no, no, no. Seth Matlins: They may have it, but that's like, tell me what that is and then LT: I would love to hear Dee's point of view. 'cause I have a, a, a very distinct point of view. Dee what you're thinking. DC: Mine is quick. When MTV was a thing, the value, my opinion was in those who were curating what I and others would see. These, the, these were the, they decided what videos I would see. Seth Matlins: They were the algorithm. DC: They were the, they were, they were the, that's it. They were that. LT: Yep. DC: We don't need that anymore. LT: Nope. DC: They're, they superfluous. So that's why I don't think, I don't think it, it'll work. That's my answer. LT: So I, I'm, I'm with you guys for me. [01:07:00] MTV again, at my age was a very formative brand and great brand. It hasn't been, I have a 22-year-old son, Seth. He has no idea what MTV is. Seth Matlins: Yeah. LT: You know, it hasn't been relevant in so long and, and this is why people, and this is why what we thought it would be a really good, what's popping for us, you know? Again, this is where you have to take your personal view out of it for older people. MTV has a a, a great emotional connection with a lot of folks. Yeah. And they lost it long ago. It ain't five years ago, it's two to three generations ago. They lost it. So how are you going to then make it at all relevant to what it is today, aside from, and it's not small that they have their logo affix the landman, which makes no connective tissue to what the brand was or what they're trying to make it to be today. So this to me, and I think all three of us agree is DOA and it is, is a complete waste, [01:08:00] waste of time. People can look back nostalgically at it, but this brand is not something for the music consumer in 2026 and beyond. Seth Matlins: You know, uh, to your point. LT. Um, speaking of nostalgia, Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada, gave a amazing, I think, you know, historically important and beautifully written speech a few weeks ago at, um, uh, was it, I think it was Davos. Yeah, it was Davos. Was it Davos or the un? I don't remember. Um, amongst the things he was talking about, amongst the things he said is he was talking about how Canada and Europe need to look at their relationship with America differently, given the current administration, um, was that nostalgia is not a strategy. Um Mm yep. Beautiful line in, in a, uh, geopolitical sense. Um, the fact of the matter is, and I bet we'll see a lot of it on Sunday during, you know, Super Bowl advertising, in marketing nostalgia, [01:09:00] absolutely a strategy. Um, but, uh, uh, and it continues to be, it long has been, but. Like when my kids go to Urban Outfitters and buy band and buy a Nirvana t-shirt, they don't know who the fuck Nirvana is not nostalgic for it. LT: Right, right, right. Seth Matlins: You know, nostalgia works, but you gotta be nostalgic for it. It's gotta mean something to you. They're nostalgic for 2016 maybe. Um, but yeah, I agree. I mean, I would, I would say Spotify has a better chance of building a music video, um, business. No doubt. Actually. I mean, maybe they have one. I don't know. Uh, than MTV has has any shot. LT: Agreed. Oh man, this is D, this is what happens when we have folks like Seth on, this goes so fast, Seth, that we're, we're at the last segment here. We're at our, our show learning. So. I'm gonna go first. Uh, DC's gonna hit, hit us next then, then if you have any, some closing thoughts before the end, that would be [01:10:00] great. So I have ama some amazing learnings. Seth, I've got nine quick ones. All right, I'm gonna go pretty quickly. So, number one, Brand Nerds. Insights matter more than facts such. That's so deep. Think about that. Number two, the best brands facilitate consumers, uh, that they feel that they belong to a community. This goes back to I Eye and the alligator for Seth. Seth Matlins: I, I would just say they fac they don't have to facilitate that. That's great. Not every brand is a community, but they have to facilitate something. They have to take me from where I am to where I want to be in some fashion. LT: If you could, I totally agree, but if you can facilitate belonging, woo. You really got something, right? Seth Matlins: Yeah, you do. LT: Okay. Number three. Marketing's job is to sell. We many times we're, we marketers are just, you know, lose that point. It's, it's gotta always go back to that number four, as we say all the time, and Seth backed this up. He said it again. All purchases are [01:11:00] emotionally driven and rationalized later with logic. That's number four. Number five, like Seth had the opportunity, opportunity to do it. Evian, give those working for you the permission to F up and then obviously help them understand the learnings, but give them the permission to F up. Number six, as Seth's CEO at Evian asked Seth, you should ask yourself and those in your purview, what did you do to move the business forward today? That's number six. Number seven, to move your business forward, you must provide cogent direction. Again, Seth saw story with Papa John's. You've gotta give cogent direction. Whether you're working with an agency, whether you're working with people. The cogent and really concise direction is the best way. That's, uh, number eight. Meaningful differentiation for any brand is absolutely imperative. And number nine, when it comes to tech, tech and data, Brand Nerds, are just tools. We talk about this a lot. It's just tools. At the end of the day, [01:12:00] marketing marketers should be thinking about tech and data as really important inputs that help generate positive outputs. Those are the nine and great stuff, Seth. DC: Mm-hmm. Fantastic. LT, Fantastic. Jimmy. These kind of shows at the end are hard for me. I say that because what I attempt to do at this stage. Is to articulate for the Brand Nerds, what is, what is it about this human that I'm looking at? And I've spent now, uh, coming up on 90 minutes with that, I believe just my humble opinion makes them unique to the 8 billion people on the planet. What do they bring? Seth Matlins: Well, it's my height and my good looks. DC: That ain't it. No, that, that's, that's not it, Jimmy. That's not it. Sorry to disappoint you. It's hard when I know the people as well as I know you, [01:13:00] that that makes it hard. I did notice something, so I'm gonna give it a try now. When you talked about your marketing ex experience and what had the most influence on you, you quickly went to Evian and you mentioned that you were the third. Marketing employee. You mentioned this several times. I've heard you talk about this before, I just forgotten it. Third at CAA, when they were beginning this brand organization and you came in and led, um, this, this practice and you worked with, uh, Coke and other clients. How long had they opened that practice when you joined CAA, Seth Matlins: uh, zero days. I was, I was, I was employee number one. DC: Yeah, so he, he, he, he was, he was number one. Yep. So third at Evian, employee number one [01:14:00] at CAA. Now let's go to William Morris Endeavor and Papa John's at that point, agencies resigned that business because of what the former, uh, CEO and founder, what he said. So there weren't people lining up Jimmy. To go, oh, let's hop right on this bandwagon for, uh, Papa John's. You were one of the few going in at WME to make that thing work. And then I started to think, hmm, there's a similarity here. Harry Potter, they had one promotional partner. I mentioned this before, one. Amer American Idol. It was the first of its kind revisited. Now, obviously, you know, the, the [01:15:00] old show, I think it was called Talent Star or something like that. Seth Matlins: It was, uh, actually remember the American Idol was the same format as DC: same format. Seth Matlins: Pop I Pop Idol, which had been in the UK DC: Pop Idol, correct? Same for me. But in the US the first of its kind. Then it, it just really hit me, Jimmy, uh, Brand Nerds, you've heard me talk about how I took what some thought at the time in my career, a big risk to leave the Coca-Cola company largest, uh, most valuable brand in the world at the time to go to a startup in, uh, in Irvine, California, Orange County, to a wireless phone company in 2004. This is not today, guys. This is flip phone, Motorola Flip, and uh, and I'm head of marketing and five of us launched this brand across the us. We later get acquired. I had a [01:16:00] supposition that phones were going to become more than just what they were at the time. The person who knew that was going to be the case was Seth Matins, and he told me. This is my boy now. Yo man, I know you're, you're, you're burning things up over there, but you might wanna, you might wanna check this thing out. I don't know how many people know that. So here I was as the first installed Head of Marketing at Boost Mobile. So lets just revisit this. Evian, third employee, CAA, first person to do the brand thing. WME, probably one of the first and only firms trying to help Papa John's, Harry Potter only, uh, marketing partner was the Coca-Cola company, American Idol, the first of its kind in the us, spawning others. And then Boost Mobile, which became the fastest growing no contract brand in the country at a [01:17:00] time where all of the other carriers were using contracts to get customers. All of these are first, and then it hit me. Jimmy, you are a sage of scarcity. Yeah, you're a sage of scarcity, brother. You can smell it. You know it, uh, it can't be taught you. You have an ability to either arrive at something early first, third, only rare. You have that ability and it, and it runs through your veins. I'll close with this brand nerds. You cannot, if you're not, if you're listening to this and you're not watching it on YouTube, you cannot see something that's very important to uh, uh, Jimmy. And it is also scarce. He wears [01:18:00] a vintage Rolex watch with a red dial. You can't find a Rolex watch with a red dial. You can find all manner of Rolex watches. You can find them with root beer color. You can find them in, uh, uh, uh, the green, green is another popular one. But to find a vintage Rolex watch that is red is scarce. And that's my boy. That's you brother. Seth Matlins: I, I, I appreciate, I appreciate that, D, Um, I, I have, I have been very privileged. I am very privileged. I've been very lucky. I've been very fortunate. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's gone. All right so far. LT: That's great. Before we, uh, hit the outro, Seth, any closing thoughts from, uh, this great conversation we've had? [01:19:00] Seth Matlins: Uh, well, uh, obviously thank you. Appreciated it. Um, appreciate it. Um, I, I, I'm trying to think of something to say that that might be of incremental, um, value or use to your audience. And, um, at the risk of sounding trite, what, what comes to mind, um, is, um, I've kind of alluded to it, right, which is inside uncertainty, um, is very uncomfortable. Um, but inside that discomfort operationally, emotionally as a human, as an institution, and let's remember, institutions are just made up of humans. Um. Is, is, um, kind of to paraphrase the, the, the quote from Spider-Man, you know, with great, uh, with great power comes great responsibility. I, I think what I'd say is, um, loving that and believing that to be true is, um, with great uncertainty comes great [01:20:00] opportunity. Um, and, and, um, fight, fight your way through the discomfort. Let yourself make the mistakes I was given the privilege and permission to make and, uh, keep on moving the business forward. LT: That's a mic drop. That's great. That's a, that's a fantastic close. Uh, so Brand Nerds, thanks so much for listening to Brands, beats and Bites, the executive producers of, of brands. Beats and Bites are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro DC: The podfathaaa. LT: that's right. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share and for those on Apple Podcasts if you're so inclined, we love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. And we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.