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Embracing Stress: Understanding Its Role and Building Resilience, with Professor Jeremy Jamieson– Part One · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

0:08
Speaker 1: Professor Jeremy Jamison. Welcome to the podcast.
0:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me bow. This is awesome, so
0:14
Speaker 2: I'm glad to be here. Have some questions.
0:17
Speaker 3: I have been looking forward to this for a couple
0:20
Speaker 3: of months and it's been tricky to pin you, Darren,
0:23
Speaker 3: because you're a busy boy. You are the chair of
0:26
Speaker 3: the Department of Psychology at the University of Rochester, and
0:30
Speaker 3: you have a real life with kids, and you live
0:32
Speaker 3: in a different time zone for me.
0:34
Speaker 1: But you featured in.
0:36
Speaker 3: My book and I was actually I was just doing
0:39
Speaker 3: the audio recording of my second book yesterday and rereading
0:45
Speaker 3: all this stuff where I mentioned about you and some
0:48
Speaker 3: of your early experiments, right, because I think your work
0:53
Speaker 3: on stress is really, really quite important. But before we
0:58
Speaker 3: get into it, my epiphany around stress and resilience happened
1:05
Speaker 3: after I went through combat survival and Resistance to interrogation
1:09
Speaker 3: training in the military, which was ten days of pretty
1:12
Speaker 3: hard core stuff.
1:14
Speaker 1: But I realized about.
1:16
Speaker 3: A week after it, something happened to me that would
1:19
Speaker 3: normally have caused me a bit of stress.
1:23
Speaker 1: And it was just like water off a duck's back.
1:26
Speaker 3: And then again something else happened and the same thing,
1:30
Speaker 3: and then I started asking some of the other guys
1:32
Speaker 3: on course if they had noticed anything similar, and they
1:36
Speaker 3: all said yes. And that's when I had my first
1:39
Speaker 3: epiphany because I was already had done a master's and
1:42
Speaker 3: exercise science, so understood about exercise and it's basically the
1:47
Speaker 3: stress that causes adaptation, right, And then I actually thought, well,
1:52
Speaker 3: maybe psychological stress seems to be of the same nature
1:57
Speaker 3: in terms of adaptive responses. Before we unpacked, that was
2:02
Speaker 3: there a point in your life where you had a
2:07
Speaker 3: little bit of an epiphany around stress and high people,
2:10
Speaker 3: particularly how they view stress.
2:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of got into this from my own
2:19
Speaker 2: experiences with athletics, so I never went through any trade
2:23
Speaker 2: that's intensus what you went through. But playing football, so
2:27
Speaker 2: American football, not like soccer. Yeah, so I played football
2:31
Speaker 2: in college. I played football there, and I noticed that
2:33
Speaker 2: my teammates would have this. They'd be really excited, really
2:37
Speaker 2: ended up before games, and it's just like, we gotta
2:39
Speaker 2: get up for this, And we totally knew that you
2:43
Speaker 2: have to be stressed, you have to really experience stress
2:46
Speaker 2: to be able the maximus that you're doing on the field.
2:49
Speaker 2: But in the classroom, these same people would be going
2:53
Speaker 2: to test me thing. I'm so nervous and free doubt,
2:55
Speaker 2: like can you help me? Like it's the same, like
2:57
Speaker 2: this is a game, Like think about what you're doing
2:59
Speaker 2: right now? Was a safe thing in that different kind
3:02
Speaker 2: of stress response that we have, like this kind of
3:04
Speaker 2: approach orange response versus in the voice warning response, it's
3:07
Speaker 2: challenge for threat. It can be really curious about that,
3:10
Speaker 2: And that's kind of the big rabbit hole I went into,
3:13
Speaker 2: and that's what ended me here m hm. All from
3:17
Speaker 2: like just observing what if my teammates did in one
3:19
Speaker 2: setting versus another. And that's maybe a so psychologist because
3:23
Speaker 2: we study situations, how situations influence what we do. In
3:27
Speaker 2: my particular background is studying that from more biological and
3:29
Speaker 2: neuroscience perspective. But it's not I don't think what I
3:34
Speaker 2: do is groundbreaking. It's always been there in society. It's
3:38
Speaker 2: always been there everywhere. Like to innovate, to do anything
3:42
Speaker 2: that's pushing your boundaries. So do anything that's going to
3:43
Speaker 2: be truly creative, you need to be stressed. And we
3:47
Speaker 2: just villainize the process so much that those things are
3:51
Speaker 2: orange around, avoiding it, his orange round, reducing it. But
3:54
Speaker 2: sometimes you kind of need it.
3:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I look at you know what I think
3:59
Speaker 3: would help everything if we just bond the word stressed
4:03
Speaker 3: and replaced it with a rousal.
4:07
Speaker 2: Tell that to a twelve year old boy.
4:11
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's right, you know exactly, And I have
4:15
Speaker 3: used that and it does get it.
4:16
Speaker 1: It does get some giggles. So maybe I'm not the.
4:19
Speaker 3: First to suggest this and then then go, oh, yeah,
4:22
Speaker 3: that's a shit idea.
4:24
Speaker 2: We first saw their stress sort of reinterpretations, reapraisals, like
4:28
Speaker 2: the reimagine what stress can be. We called it arousal rebraisal.
4:32
Speaker 2: We didn't in a community college and high schools. We
4:34
Speaker 2: got all these chuckles like why are you guys lapping?
4:37
Speaker 2: Like the kid took some kids, like some like eleven
4:40
Speaker 2: year olds like come here when you say that, we're
4:44
Speaker 2: not thinking about stressed, So to stop saying that word,
4:47
Speaker 2: Like okay, cool kid. But that's it goes to this
4:50
Speaker 2: idea that we use a lot of psychology is that
4:53
Speaker 2: when you're trying to orient these approaches, try to help
4:55
Speaker 2: people understand stress or understand like the regulation of it.
5:00
Speaker 2: I know you're talking to and so eight is really important.
5:03
Speaker 2: And so we build out these these tools, build these
5:06
Speaker 2: methods if not a one size fits all, like nothing's
5:09
Speaker 2: gonna work the same way for anybody. Yeah, and that's
5:12
Speaker 2: a that's a pretty good example. Yeah. Smartly going back
5:16
Speaker 2: to the name boy, getting the media to stop talking
5:20
Speaker 2: about stress as if this is the one thing that's
5:22
Speaker 2: going to kill you would be beautiful because people can
5:27
Speaker 2: learn how to understand what is adapted. Was now that
5:30
Speaker 2: what is the signal that this is wrong, this is normative?
5:34
Speaker 2: That would be wonderful. My entire research program would be useless.
5:37
Speaker 2: It had been thrilled if me you start talking about
5:40
Speaker 2: stress is bad.
5:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I've often talked about the good, the bad,
5:45
Speaker 3: and the ugly of stress, and you talk about the good,
5:48
Speaker 3: the bad, and the useful of stress, which I really
5:52
Speaker 3: like that that whole idea of useful and and I
5:55
Speaker 3: think anybody listening to this, you know, if they're to
5:58
Speaker 3: think about their biggest achievement in their life, no doubt
6:03
Speaker 3: it would involve stress in being out of your comfort zone. Right,
6:06
Speaker 3: And that's that's obviously the useful stuff. I think what
6:10
Speaker 3: might be really quite useful here for the listeners is
6:14
Speaker 3: for you to explain the biopsychosocial model of stress to
6:18
Speaker 3: people in Layman's terms.
6:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a model that we work off of
6:26
Speaker 2: in psychophysiology in most regulation research, but it's also the
6:30
Speaker 2: major modic model of stress and medical science. It's those
6:33
Speaker 2: hospitals that fully endorse this viewpoint. This is how we're
6:37
Speaker 2: treating patients now in America. And biopsycho is a big word.
6:42
Speaker 2: It sounds complicated for really to understand the stress response.
6:45
Speaker 2: It's not just in your body, that's a biopart the
6:48
Speaker 2: psychological part that's your psychological prophecy is a person, there's
6:52
Speaker 2: also your social environment, and we get stressor. The idea
6:57
Speaker 2: is that stressors are not stress, The stressor are demand.
7:01
Speaker 2: We're faced with. This could be a job interview, this
7:04
Speaker 2: could be an exam, It could be something asking you
7:06
Speaker 2: on a date, be anything that's a stressor is pushing
7:09
Speaker 2: out of homeostasis, and now you have to address this stressor.
7:13
Speaker 2: And the next up of the process is that we're
7:16
Speaker 2: marshaling cognitve appraisals. Our brains are usually doing this kind
7:21
Speaker 2: of under the surface automatically in we're wayne do I
7:25
Speaker 2: have the resources to address this demand? And so an
7:30
Speaker 2: easy examples or exam, so student has an exam, They
7:33
Speaker 2: go Okay, I see a question. Wait, no, this go
7:36
Speaker 2: in and know this. We see a few more questions.
7:39
Speaker 2: Oh shoot, I studied the wrong thing. Now all of
7:43
Speaker 2: a sudden, the demands are outweighing the resources and I
7:46
Speaker 2: feel like I can't do this, and that response, as
7:51
Speaker 2: we call that response, when the demands are greater than
7:54
Speaker 2: the resources we have, we get threatened. This is a
7:57
Speaker 2: kin to anxiety. But the issue with our stress systems
8:01
Speaker 2: is that they're evolved to be optimized. For about twenty
8:05
Speaker 2: thirty thousand years ago, those stressors were usually physical, and
8:10
Speaker 2: so if we felt the demands are our raising our response,
8:13
Speaker 2: we may get hurt, like we might be have harm
8:16
Speaker 2: code to us. So our body's doing things to protect us.
8:19
Speaker 2: So we say that we're threatened. It's not maladaptive. It
8:22
Speaker 2: was very very adaptive in the setting, just that nowadays
8:26
Speaker 2: most stressors are social. Most times the defeat is social defeat.
8:30
Speaker 2: It's losing social status, it's getting negative evaluative exam or
8:34
Speaker 2: job interview or talk, whatever it is. That's not most
8:37
Speaker 2: stressors that we were facebook and evolution to pass. So
8:42
Speaker 2: that response kind of leads all this to this massive
8:44
Speaker 2: biological account scathed of trying to protect the individual you're
8:50
Speaker 2: trying to survive. But we kind of don't need to
8:53
Speaker 2: do that response nowadays. So the other side of that
8:57
Speaker 2: coin is that we get to that exam and it's like, oh,
8:59
Speaker 2: I've sending this, I know this material I studied. I'm like,
9:04
Speaker 2: well rested. Now I can see that I have the
9:06
Speaker 2: resources to address this task and your bodies are great.
9:11
Speaker 2: I'm gonna give you the energy to do this. So
9:14
Speaker 2: increase herd rate what you're deilding, more oxygen around your body, dilation,
9:19
Speaker 2: blood vessels, more auctions going your brain in the ball, cormones,
9:24
Speaker 2: these things Athletes get banned for a long time for taking.
9:26
Speaker 2: But you have because you're now in this approach oranged state,
9:30
Speaker 2: and you take them the stressor. And the cool thing
9:32
Speaker 2: about those responses is that these challenge approach when a
9:35
Speaker 2: stress response, because once the stressor is done, you go
9:39
Speaker 2: back to new states. It's really fast, and so you
9:43
Speaker 2: turn it off and now you're backed down from normal
9:46
Speaker 2: threat stays. It's kind of kicks around for a while,
9:49
Speaker 2: cortosols a half like for an hour.
9:52
Speaker 3: This This is this is massive for people, right, Is
9:59
Speaker 3: that under standing of that you're talking to here about
10:03
Speaker 3: the biology or the biological response of threat and challenge.
10:09
Speaker 3: And and you know, when I read a bunch of papers,
10:12
Speaker 3: some of yours included on this, it just.
10:14
Speaker 1: Made so much sense.
10:17
Speaker 3: So that challenge response that we talked about where you're
10:21
Speaker 3: leaning in you which we talk about approaching psychology, and
10:25
Speaker 3: I think the delayed person leaning to it right.
10:28
Speaker 2: Where I lovely. I love that terminalgy. I absolutely love that.
10:32
Speaker 2: I think that's the you're describing that response.
10:35
Speaker 3: And and what but the important thing that you mentioned
10:39
Speaker 3: that involves the hormones adrenaline and nora adrenaline, which over
10:44
Speaker 3: in your side of the pond you call epinephrin and
10:47
Speaker 3: no epineffron.
10:49
Speaker 1: Yes, And but to your point, the half life.
10:52
Speaker 3: Of those is well, I think it's a minute to
10:55
Speaker 3: two minutes of of those chemicals.
10:58
Speaker 2: It's pretty queer. Yeah, feel like so if you look
11:01
Speaker 2: at d H g H a d hydro at be
11:04
Speaker 2: interesting day. Yeah, it's the antabubble clip of cortisol. And
11:09
Speaker 2: the one reason zon't particulars from the adrenal glands. Those
11:15
Speaker 2: have a better correlate so adrenaline nor adrenaline. So these
11:20
Speaker 2: are like really basic core stress world. These are those things.
11:23
Speaker 2: You're gonna get those on s am max's activation. They're
11:26
Speaker 2: gonna grow. Yes, with cortisol, it's an ah PA process,
11:31
Speaker 2: So you're bringing another stress system in that. It's kind
11:34
Speaker 2: of kind of racking the anabolic effects processes in course
11:39
Speaker 2: if it's a bad rap. But you're gonna see increases
11:41
Speaker 2: in corrizo any kind of stress date in course, I
11:43
Speaker 2: mean corsal response to designed to help help us help
11:46
Speaker 2: individual like literally live best they can live and survive
11:50
Speaker 2: the next day. But we see a lot of the
11:56
Speaker 2: stress world corrisol is bad and yeah, and adrenaline is
12:01
Speaker 2: good and PG is good. So we moved a little
12:04
Speaker 2: bit more away from just the corso is bad, more
12:06
Speaker 2: of an animal balance. Yeah, so the ratio of coal
12:10
Speaker 2: ratio sacer course is kind of good at that.
12:13
Speaker 1: And good luck surviving with our cortisol.
12:18
Speaker 2: Could yeah, seriously take that from a bag like that
12:21
Speaker 2: can happen.
12:22
Speaker 3: I think I think it's worth why just just for
12:25
Speaker 3: our audience, who you know, may not be familiar with
12:28
Speaker 3: some of this terminal term terminology, just to give them
12:31
Speaker 3: the very quick, dirty definition you mentioned the sum axis
12:35
Speaker 3: sympathetic adrenal middulory. Everybody listening knows that is the fight
12:39
Speaker 3: or flight response, all right, And then h P A
12:43
Speaker 3: axis and and you know, you know we could we can,
12:46
Speaker 3: you could pick me up for the technicalities. But HP
12:50
Speaker 3: A axis, hypothalmus, bituitary, adrenal glands, cortisol and and to
12:56
Speaker 3: your point, when you're stressed, yes, cordisol will be released
12:59
Speaker 3: and it acts again to to to make it understandable for.
13:03
Speaker 1: The lay person. It's it's like a swat team.
13:07
Speaker 3: It acts with adrenaline, NORAH, adrenaline, EF, nor beneforn and
13:10
Speaker 3: e ata to help you to meet the challenge.
13:14
Speaker 1: But to your point earlier about physical and social.
13:18
Speaker 3: You know, when your hunter gatherer key of man ancestor
13:24
Speaker 3: was startled.
13:24
Speaker 1: By a lion, he got all of.
13:26
Speaker 3: These responses right that that very quickly mobilized them to
13:32
Speaker 3: be able to run away in this case or fight
13:34
Speaker 3: in others. And and that action, that physical action contributes
13:40
Speaker 3: to coming back to homeostasis. Right to that, you know,
13:44
Speaker 3: essentially the stress hormones are being used up with the
13:48
Speaker 3: physical action. But when a lot of our stressors are social,
13:53
Speaker 3: we're not moving our bodies at all, and so then
13:59
Speaker 3: that's when these hormones and cortisole comes over the top
14:02
Speaker 3: and the end if it's persistent stressor that's when you
14:06
Speaker 3: get into bad juju, isn't It's that hyper cortus albia,
14:10
Speaker 3: when too much of a good thing turns into a
14:14
Speaker 3: pretty disastrous thing. That that's kind of my simplified view
14:18
Speaker 3: of the stress universe. Anything to pick up our odd too.
14:23
Speaker 2: That's not simplified. That's that's kind of exactly what we
14:27
Speaker 2: think about in terms of the research world about stress.
14:30
Speaker 2: And when you see people talk about this and maladaptive stress,
14:35
Speaker 2: stress it or maladapt response. It may be maladaptive in
14:39
Speaker 2: that context, it's not now adaptive to the organism in general.
14:43
Speaker 2: If you really live in a dangerous environment and you're threatened,
14:46
Speaker 2: you probably should be aware of sources sup horror because
14:49
Speaker 2: it's going to help you survive. And that's kind of it.
14:52
Speaker 2: When we forget about what stress means, it's more of
14:54
Speaker 2: when we talk about normal stressors, chronic stressors, or things
14:58
Speaker 2: that you kind of can't control. I think it's like trauma. Yeah,
15:02
Speaker 2: And so that's the really important thing is understanding the
15:05
Speaker 2: stressors themselves. And so when you say you go back home,
15:07
Speaker 2: your stations really quickly. When your challenge you do. When
15:11
Speaker 2: you take on the challenge and you're amped up, you
15:14
Speaker 2: kind of just you take it on. Whether you've it's gone.
15:17
Speaker 2: Then you you're back down home. Your stace is nice.
15:20
Speaker 2: You don't have an alsac lade from that. You're surviving.
15:23
Speaker 2: You're kind of good to go. It's it's more than thinking.
15:27
Speaker 2: I guess the analogies your lights like like a light bulb,
15:30
Speaker 2: you got to turn it off and you need light,
15:32
Speaker 2: you leave the room, turn it off. If the lights
15:34
Speaker 2: the whole time and you're worried about being dark, that
15:37
Speaker 2: light's kind of bumps on a burnout at some point,
15:40
Speaker 2: and that's when you see the chronic activation of these
15:42
Speaker 2: systems that things that can be useful in a short
15:45
Speaker 2: term where they stay on for a long time. It's
15:48
Speaker 2: not good. And it's psychologically when you start building in
15:51
Speaker 2: the rumination prohisies, you building cantasterzation to that you're gonna
15:55
Speaker 2: start worrying about being stressed. It's like the stress of
15:57
Speaker 2: being stressed. You dam you didn't have the self?
16:00
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, absolutely, Can you just explain there's another term
16:05
Speaker 3: to use that that's really important that a lot of
16:07
Speaker 3: lay people won't be familiar with, but the concept of
16:10
Speaker 3: alistatic load because it's pretty central to.
16:14
Speaker 1: When people talk about stress and bad stress and Bernart
16:18
Speaker 1: and all of that. Really, under the hood does alistatic load?
16:21
Speaker 2: So what is it? Yeah? We so the modelside usually
16:25
Speaker 2: work off of you mentioned these biopsychosocial models. We're looking
16:28
Speaker 2: at the interactions between how our psychological proceeds are driving
16:31
Speaker 2: our acute stress response howls that load. It's an accumulation
16:36
Speaker 2: like if you don't brush your teeth, your communsi a
16:38
Speaker 2: plagu is going to lead to like tooth to key.
16:40
Speaker 2: So like that accumulation that process stresses like the plant,
16:43
Speaker 2: it's going to accumulate. And if you accumulates in a
16:46
Speaker 2: bad way, they people these recursive feedback loops that are
16:50
Speaker 2: just gonna get worse and worse and worse. And so
16:53
Speaker 2: you see something that was managible or something that was
16:55
Speaker 2: perminative at a start can move towards something and that
17:00
Speaker 2: is not normative and that it's not manageable. And so
17:03
Speaker 2: this is why things like anxiety have been the best
17:06
Speaker 2: produced of like the pressure long term because anxiety, discrimination, rumination, workation,
17:11
Speaker 2: more anxiety, and eventually you're going to get depressed, and
17:15
Speaker 2: that's that's a bummer you call it that way.
17:21
Speaker 1: So no, no, no, no, absolutely, it's utally important. So
17:25
Speaker 1: let's not talk about at preisl and reappraisal.
17:29
Speaker 3: So we we've mentioned a pre asoll is whether you're
17:31
Speaker 3: viewing something as a potential challenge or a potential threat,
17:35
Speaker 3: and that then dictates your how your body engages, whether
17:41
Speaker 3: it leans in or you go away, and and and
17:43
Speaker 3: it then affects the physiology. Now you've done a lot
17:47
Speaker 3: lot of work on reaprisol maybe and and talk about
17:51
Speaker 3: some of the early studies that you did with students
17:55
Speaker 3: with upcoming exams and and and rethinking butterflies this whole area.
18:03
Speaker 3: Talk to us about that, because that's pretty cold stuff.
18:08
Speaker 2: That was such a fun study that I am so
18:10
Speaker 2: fortunate from my post art we mentor Wendy Mendez, who
18:14
Speaker 2: is like she is one of the biggest name, the
18:17
Speaker 2: biggest people in all stress research, Like I would I
18:19
Speaker 2: would suggest anybody listening to this go.
18:21
Speaker 4: Read Wendy's research, like right now, Wendy Mendez. Wendy Mendez. Yes,
18:26
Speaker 4: she is like the biocycle social queen, Like, oh cool.
18:30
Speaker 4: Everything I do has come from her, I'm fully hear student.
18:34
Speaker 4: The study was I'm done in her lab at Harvard
18:36
Speaker 4: when I was a post doc. But the fun thing
18:38
Speaker 4: about the study was that a lot of the people
18:41
Speaker 4: in VOM say, these are Harvard under graduates who are
18:44
Speaker 4: really motivated people. These people are I don't know. They've
18:46
Speaker 4: gotten to Harvard, they've achieved things that they can achieve, but.
18:50
Speaker 2: They're taking the geries and now I'm going to graduate
18:52
Speaker 2: school in Superban's lab, and we had them go through
18:56
Speaker 2: just a simple asking about Hey, you don't mean he
18:59
Speaker 2: was about this test.
19:01
Speaker 1: Sorry, check Jeremy. Just just just explain the gr for
19:05
Speaker 1: the listeners to the state.
19:07
Speaker 2: It's like in the US, it's like a standardized test
19:10
Speaker 2: for like going to graduate school.
19:12
Speaker 1: So Hi, sta high stays exactly.
19:14
Speaker 2: Your high sex test is a standardized test. It's like,
19:17
Speaker 2: I don't know, I best at is like our high
19:19
Speaker 2: school version. The yous are a grad school version. So
19:24
Speaker 2: in this study, we took people who were prearented the giory.
19:27
Speaker 2: They're set to take it with the next few months,
19:29
Speaker 2: bring them to the lab. They do practice theory, but
19:32
Speaker 2: before app them take it, we go through instructions that hey,
19:36
Speaker 2: this you're gonna be stressed, that's okay. This means that
19:40
Speaker 2: you're a or form the resource of being mobilized. Think
19:44
Speaker 2: about what your stress response means to you, Like this
19:47
Speaker 2: means that you care. This doesn't mean that ending's wrong.
19:51
Speaker 2: And so you're getting rid of that catastroization. Because once
19:54
Speaker 2: someone thinks that stress is going to be kind of
19:56
Speaker 2: hurrying them in a situation, they'll devote resources to like
20:00
Speaker 2: getting rid of it. That's wasted effort, waste of time.
20:03
Speaker 2: Like you, you don't need to get rid of You
20:05
Speaker 2: get a leaning like the leanings, And the best analogy
20:07
Speaker 2: I can use is that this is these are resources
20:10
Speaker 2: that are helping you. Alison Brooks had a really cool
20:13
Speaker 2: study she's she's at Harvard Business School where she was
20:16
Speaker 2: looking at getting people excited to do something versus getting
20:20
Speaker 2: the calm down. And so they did a bunch of tasks,
20:24
Speaker 2: like a bunch of like cognitive games, a bunch of
20:26
Speaker 2: things like dance censored revolution or like singing games, like
20:29
Speaker 2: lots of different kinds of things, and the people who
20:32
Speaker 2: were calm did worse than people who were challenged. Excitedly,
20:36
Speaker 2: being excited is better than being calm, So when they
20:38
Speaker 2: still keep calm and carry on. It's like, no, be excited. Yes,
20:43
Speaker 2: think about it, Like if you're if the filping's burying
20:46
Speaker 2: down and you're going to follow the person who's like
20:47
Speaker 2: sauntering on the hallway, it's death call. They gotta follow persons. Like,
20:50
Speaker 2: now we're done here. Here, here's what we do. There's
20:52
Speaker 2: a solution based thing. But you gotta do that.
20:57
Speaker 1: So then let's talk about right now.
21:00
Speaker 3: But but I actually you didn't. I don't think you
21:02
Speaker 3: finished the story about the students. And so one bunch
21:07
Speaker 3: of students, it was an interesting tangent, but one bunch
21:10
Speaker 3: of students.
21:11
Speaker 2: Didn't do that.
21:12
Speaker 1: You didn't tell me.
21:14
Speaker 3: The control group you didn't tell anything too. And this
21:17
Speaker 3: other group you told them that this stress could be useful.
21:20
Speaker 3: It's their body preparing them for action.
21:24
Speaker 2: What happened the students who we go through the instructions
21:29
Speaker 2: that stressed to be useful, they do better on a
21:31
Speaker 2: practice theery. So in the lab take a practice test. Great.
21:36
Speaker 2: They also show increases in owfamilies, which is a proxy
21:39
Speaker 2: for NORB nephrin. But I don't get the actually process that. Yeah,
21:44
Speaker 2: but the coolest thing was that months later when they
21:46
Speaker 2: took the actual test. They come back to the lab,
21:50
Speaker 2: and the students who were in the reappraisal condition did
21:55
Speaker 2: better than the other students, the control students in their
21:58
Speaker 2: actual jury tests, especially in the experiently in the math section,
22:03
Speaker 2: not in the verbal sections, the math section, which was
22:06
Speaker 2: really cool. So I will note that that the sample
22:09
Speaker 2: sizes back then were quite small. We replicated this now
22:13
Speaker 2: several times, watch different samples, and so it's not not
22:16
Speaker 2: just my web in other labs as well. So this
22:18
Speaker 2: is now I'm pretty confident that there's been enough accumulation
22:22
Speaker 2: of data on this that this is something that matters
22:25
Speaker 2: for these kinds of situations where there's high stakes, where
22:28
Speaker 2: there's stress involved. We're just trying to move forward with
22:33
Speaker 2: how do we reach people. How do we kind of
22:36
Speaker 2: get the message out that stress isn't going to be
22:38
Speaker 2: this damning thing that you're going to see all the time, Like,
22:41
Speaker 2: how do we tell people that this is something that
22:43
Speaker 2: could be supportive not just for your achievement, for your health, like,
22:48
Speaker 2: think about this is why I got So this is
22:51
Speaker 2: gonna be another change that can go off on a second,
22:54
Speaker 2: but post code go ahead, the whole self care Jemmy
23:00
Speaker 2: Nuts and the whole, like removing fact like removing exams,
23:04
Speaker 2: thinks Jeremy nuts. I'm like, don't do that, it's gonna
23:06
Speaker 2: be terrible. Idea.
23:08
Speaker 3: Thank you, jere me, thank you somebody else, somebody else
23:13
Speaker 3: who's reeling against a friggin self cur if I hear
23:16
Speaker 3: another frigan psychologist, if I hear another psychologist tell you
23:20
Speaker 3: that that the case of resilience is self care of just.
23:23
Speaker 2: Trying to go somebody so that that that's I know,
23:26
Speaker 2: it's not. You need to do hard things. Every single
23:30
Speaker 2: person needs to do something that makes them uncomfortable, like tomorrow,
23:34
Speaker 2: like go do that hard thing. Go do something that's
23:37
Speaker 2: going to push your boundaries in the way that you
23:39
Speaker 2: don't know and you can't in the you don't do that.
23:45
Speaker 2: Like my students, I purposely like taking grad students who
23:48
Speaker 2: do different research today. I want ideas that like challenge
23:51
Speaker 2: me one, ideas that are different than mine, because if
23:53
Speaker 2: I have, if I'm training just little versions of need,
23:55
Speaker 2: it's no fun for science, there's no fun for anybody.
23:59
Speaker 2: We all had to push our boundaries. And the day
24:01
Speaker 2: I stopped doing that to day and not I'm stop
24:03
Speaker 2: doing research.
24:04
Speaker 3: Honestly, yeah, absolutely, And the key thing is that this
24:10
Speaker 3: stuff is applicable to the real world. And you know
24:14
Speaker 3: what I I did some a bit of mindset coaching
24:17
Speaker 3: for karate athletes and even the young athletes. You know,
24:22
Speaker 3: before a tournament and and you know, they're competing, they're fighting,
24:26
Speaker 3: and it's pretty it's pretty stressful. But just telling these
24:30
Speaker 3: kids that they're not stressed, they're excited, can be a
24:35
Speaker 3: complete game changer for them, telling them that it's their
24:39
Speaker 3: body's way of preparing themselves. And you know, and are right,
24:43
Speaker 3: you just say, you know, you're like a keyds tiger,
24:46
Speaker 3: but you just got to tell your Brian. Hey, it's
24:49
Speaker 3: the right response, but it's just not time. I mean,
24:52
Speaker 3: that sort of stuff is really useful. That real pri
24:55
Speaker 3: as all can be hugely, hugely useful for people, and
25:00
Speaker 3: I think your research shows that you can learn it.
25:03
Speaker 3: Just by shifting your psychological orientation. You can affect not
25:11
Speaker 3: only your physiology but also how you engage with things.
25:14
Speaker 3: I think that is absolutely critical rather than just all
25:19
Speaker 3: stresses bad and I should hide away from it, is
25:22
Speaker 3: to actually reapplease it as a challenge to test and
25:26
Speaker 3: develop you. But what sort of factors and affect somebody's
25:34
Speaker 3: bast line and automatic approach to stress, to appraisal and
25:39
Speaker 3: reappraisal you know from genetics, experience, early life adverse events.
25:44
Speaker 3: These sorts of things give our listeners a bit of
25:47
Speaker 3: a view of how these factors influence you on a
25:51
Speaker 3: day to day basis without even knowing.
25:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, one of the easy ones you can't
25:57
Speaker 2: touch on already is that those prior mindsets about what
26:00
Speaker 2: stress means and is can affect what they do. And
26:04
Speaker 2: so when we do these really lo low interventions mabulations,
26:08
Speaker 2: they work really well for people who have negative fire mindsets.
26:13
Speaker 2: So that's where there's a bigest opportunity for growth, because
26:16
Speaker 2: otherwise we're telling people they already know. But when people
26:20
Speaker 2: there's people that are faced like real trauma, like real
26:23
Speaker 2: chronic like negative stress in their lives, moving, that's harder
26:28
Speaker 2: because there's now an ingrained system that has kind of
26:31
Speaker 2: learned to kind of be always on. So when we
26:34
Speaker 2: look at profiles of stress respons it's like THEO we
26:37
Speaker 2: are cortisol With people who are traumatized, it kind of
26:41
Speaker 2: a lower waking response but never drops down to where
26:45
Speaker 2: it should be, so it's kind of always kind of
26:47
Speaker 2: on a little bit all the time because it's thinking
26:50
Speaker 2: about there's something gonna be wrong going on all the time.
26:53
Speaker 2: So that's a different kind of stress, that's a different
26:56
Speaker 2: kind of regulation technique than we do. So what we
26:58
Speaker 2: want to do there really what we found is that
27:02
Speaker 2: exposure works really well having people talk about traumatize events.
27:06
Speaker 2: And so this is something I want to give a
27:07
Speaker 2: big shout out to Mount Whole Family Center here in Rochester.
27:11
Speaker 2: They do a lot of wonderful work with kids who've
27:13
Speaker 2: gone through neglect and trauma and abuse, and they're doing
27:17
Speaker 2: tons of tons of rigged research on biological embedding and
27:20
Speaker 2: part of their finding is these kinds of patterns, but
27:22
Speaker 2: also the kids who are resilient to these processes. There's
27:27
Speaker 2: a profile to this. And some of this is you
27:30
Speaker 2: have to approach the difficulty of addressing the trauma, and
27:35
Speaker 2: it's really hard for people to do that. I mean,
27:39
Speaker 2: trauma is mean you want to avoid, you want to
27:41
Speaker 2: never talk about, you want to bury that thing. Approaching
27:45
Speaker 2: the difficulty there it seems to be helping these kids
27:48
Speaker 2: a lot, and so I want to kind of push
27:50
Speaker 2: stuff into a Professor Jenny no and Patrick Davies or
27:53
Speaker 2: doing amazing works in these areas, but it's a different
27:58
Speaker 2: kind of a beast than trying to get people to
27:59
Speaker 2: write more normagti of day to day stress responses things
28:03
Speaker 2: like exams or jub airviews or that kind of stuff.
28:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, and some interesting research around stress in the workplace.
28:14
Speaker 3: There's a series of studies you may or may not
28:17
Speaker 3: be familiar with, but did functional fMRI and then ask
28:24
Speaker 3: people every three months, I think it was about the
28:27
Speaker 3: amount of stress in their life, particularly workplace stress, and
28:31
Speaker 3: then followed them up and find that over time they're
28:36
Speaker 3: amigdala is actually hypertrophied.
28:38
Speaker 1: So for the listeners, they are a migdala.
28:40
Speaker 3: The part of the Brian that's heavily involved in the
28:44
Speaker 3: stress response was actually growing bigger, and their frontal lobes
28:48
Speaker 3: were were actually shrinking because stress kills off neurons in
28:52
Speaker 3: the frontal lobe preferentially. But I found one study that
28:55
Speaker 3: used acceptance and commitment therapy as an intervention and find
28:58
Speaker 3: that these brilliant changes were at least partially reversible. So
29:03
Speaker 3: the which hints at the plasticity of the brain, right,
29:07
Speaker 3: the neuroplasticity.
29:08
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, we people, your your genetic code
29:12
Speaker 2: is not set in stone. There's variables there we're talking
29:16
Speaker 2: about with the mediala, especially where if this really what
29:19
Speaker 2: it's oriented around is addressing negative of or avoidance oriented affects.
29:25
Speaker 2: And so you're anxious megala, if you're worried, the medala
29:29
Speaker 2: all this kind of like threat. The stress is about
29:32
Speaker 2: I'm worried about something, I want to avoid it, Megala.
29:36
Speaker 2: And so with this the pre PFC stuff that's more
29:38
Speaker 2: about regulation, and so seeing not fee in the regulation
29:42
Speaker 2: regions and hyperactivity and the avoid sponsor regions makes a
29:46
Speaker 2: lot of sense. We kind of take that how we
29:51
Speaker 2: look at like what's going forward. Getting people to change
29:56
Speaker 2: how they think about starts will change the brain. And
29:59
Speaker 2: so there's I'm really hopeful that epigenic research will take
30:02
Speaker 2: off the next few years, where the epigeno is something
30:04
Speaker 2: that we inherit from our parents. It's territable, but it's
30:08
Speaker 2: also be versable. And we started to understand a little
30:11
Speaker 2: bit about more epigenetics, and most of what's going on
30:14
Speaker 2: is methylation. So we can turn off or basically turn
30:17
Speaker 2: off certain areas of the giant code by methyl groups
30:20
Speaker 2: to that part of the code. But we know less
30:23
Speaker 2: about the history modification. Like most of our DNA is
30:25
Speaker 2: a kind of like a yo yo, and so you
30:27
Speaker 2: can unravel it and travel back in. And so what
30:29
Speaker 2: makes the histone, which is was wrapped around, unravel versus
30:33
Speaker 2: not And with stress, stress can unravel the histone, it
30:37
Speaker 2: can activate regions of our DNA. That's about responding to
30:40
Speaker 2: adverse environments. That helps us again survive, helps to be adaptable,
30:46
Speaker 2: but they cannot be exactly functional in modern society all times.
30:51
Speaker 2: So well, this is of that.
30:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is what I often say
30:57
Speaker 1: to people like like that, that a MiG deal of response.
31:00
Speaker 3: You think about it is a beautifully adaptive response to
31:05
Speaker 3: the hunter gatherer, a kievman being in a dangerous world,
31:08
Speaker 3: because it then makes that individual hypervigilant. They develop a
31:14
Speaker 3: negativity bias and it's all about survival, and that adaptive
31:18
Speaker 3: response becomes maladaptive when you live in a world that's
31:23
Speaker 3: not dangerous, where you're just the stressors are traffic, relationship issues,
31:28
Speaker 3: money worries, weren't wondering if your kids are going to
31:31
Speaker 3: be fucked, you know, all of this stuff are those
31:36
Speaker 3: modern social stressors that you mentioned. But it's interesting, the
31:40
Speaker 3: brain does not differentiate between physical and psychological, real or
31:44
Speaker 3: imaginary and will adapt accordingly.
31:49
Speaker 2: So then what we think, what we think matters, and
31:53
Speaker 2: so that's that's where we tell people. Lot is when
31:55
Speaker 2: we talk about appraisals and mindsets and your brain what
31:58
Speaker 2: you think direct role of which your body does, and
32:03
Speaker 2: that a lot of people it takes them a little
32:04
Speaker 2: while to get there, but once they get there, they're like, oh,
32:09
Speaker 2: I understand this now, Like your appraisals, your mindsets, the
32:13
Speaker 2: way you engage with the tasks, like your body's response matters.
32:18
Speaker 2: It doesn't have like my heart doesn't have its own
32:20
Speaker 2: eyes or ears or nose wherever my brain tells them
32:24
Speaker 2: what to do. So if I think I'm overwhelmed, I'm overwhelmed, heartlake. Great,
32:29
Speaker 2: Let's help us live another day. Let's help us survive.
32:33
Speaker 2: And that's what usually what we should be in. We
32:34
Speaker 2: should be in survival, which means live mode, and that's
32:37
Speaker 2: what we need to Usually in Mars, society is going
32:40
Speaker 2: more towards that thrive survive approach.
32:45
Speaker 3: So let's talk about that epigenetic effect, right, which this
32:51
Speaker 3: will be quite a surprise for people in that And
32:55
Speaker 3: the analogy I use is your genes are like the
32:58
Speaker 3: lights and the PPG know is the switches, the dimmer
33:01
Speaker 3: switches that turn it up regularly, down, regularly, switch on,
33:05
Speaker 3: switch off.
33:06
Speaker 1: And we now know that you not only.
33:08
Speaker 3: Inherit the DNA from your mum and dad, but you
33:13
Speaker 3: can also inherit an epigenome so and particularly around stress.
33:18
Speaker 2: So so.
33:20
Speaker 3: Basically if you're a correctly if I'm wrong, but particularly
33:27
Speaker 3: the mother in the third trimester, if they are significantly stressed,
33:35
Speaker 3: that can have quite a significant impact on the development
33:39
Speaker 3: of that fetus. Is brilliant, but even before that there
33:43
Speaker 3: are epigenetic effects that come into place. So talk to
33:47
Speaker 3: our listeners a little bit about you know, what's what
33:50
Speaker 3: the hell is going on here, and then a little
33:53
Speaker 3: bit more into into how we can manipulate the epigenome.
34:00
Speaker 2: This is a I mean, I'm very hopeful there's gonna
34:03
Speaker 2: be a big version area in social neuroscience. Seeing we're
34:07
Speaker 2: not quite there yet. We're kind of really evidence. But
34:11
Speaker 2: what we've seen a lot with launchhreatingal studies is people
34:16
Speaker 2: in relatively dangerous low resource environments. When you communicate to
34:21
Speaker 2: a fetus a baby that this is our environment, you
34:27
Speaker 2: need to be visual for sources of harm. Yeah, yeah,
34:31
Speaker 2: that FETA should be visual resources of harm. There's wonderful
34:35
Speaker 2: research again from Wendy's lab too. Sarah Waters did this
34:39
Speaker 2: research where if you get a mom, you put them
34:42
Speaker 2: in a stress task and so they're doing some really
34:44
Speaker 2: difficult stress tasks that's not fun, that's kind of negative
34:47
Speaker 2: threat type stress. Baby's a room, another room playing, Bring
34:52
Speaker 2: baby back into the room with mom. Sit baby in
34:54
Speaker 2: mom's lab, Mom's answering research questions. Baby has lots of
34:58
Speaker 2: carry pastor Mars babies having a stress response because the
35:02
Speaker 2: mom is stressed. It's it's picking it up all they
35:06
Speaker 2: picked it up from the mom because the baby needs
35:08
Speaker 2: to know what's going on here. My survivor you and
35:13
Speaker 2: you were experiences me as negative. I need not to
35:16
Speaker 2: be like tuned to what's happening to this and this
35:19
Speaker 2: is happening much earlier than that. And so the big
35:21
Speaker 2: genome is that, yeah, we're passing this down to our children.
35:25
Speaker 2: If you think want change your gene code. Like all humans,
35:29
Speaker 2: we all have the same agety DNA. Basically, why aren't
35:32
Speaker 2: we all the same? There's different ways that the DNA
35:34
Speaker 2: gets manifested, different ways that there's different a mules, Different
35:38
Speaker 2: things are going on, but one of the big ones
35:41
Speaker 2: is the representation of the genome. Like I love the
35:47
Speaker 2: like a recipe book, the book could be closed, you'll
35:50
Speaker 2: book through recipe, recipe gets made, and so what the
35:54
Speaker 2: histones are is like controlling what's what recipe is active
35:58
Speaker 2: now and if you're in an dangerous environment, it's like
36:02
Speaker 2: we need a Virginian part of this to like help
36:04
Speaker 2: us survive in this environment where you trying that off
36:08
Speaker 2: and that person have that. So like two identical twins
36:11
Speaker 2: of the same Jack Cook has very different kinds of
36:13
Speaker 2: stress initial initial systems because there raise in different environments.
36:18
Speaker 2: This is humans and adaptability that's really really flexible, but
36:22
Speaker 2: also it can be not great sometimes, but it's optimized
36:26
Speaker 2: to help us survive. That's why we have these systems.
36:30
Speaker 2: And essentially you took strictly.
36:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, the mother and the baby is a really interesting thing.
36:38
Speaker 3: I've been talking to my wife about this more and more,
36:41
Speaker 3: that our nervous systems communicate with each other, and I
36:47
Speaker 3: am am convinced of this, and people talk about you know,
36:51
Speaker 3: I think for the listeners, everybody knows somebody who can
36:54
Speaker 3: walk into the room and just you know, light up
36:57
Speaker 3: a room like a Christmas tree, and everybody else knows
36:59
Speaker 3: at least on the energy vampire, right, and we talk
37:03
Speaker 3: about here, can you know they can suck the very
37:05
Speaker 3: life force out of you in an entire room in
37:08
Speaker 3: thirty seconds flat.
37:09
Speaker 1: And you know people intuitively get the you know that
37:12
Speaker 1: we pass energy.
37:13
Speaker 3: But for me, this is nervous system communication, and that
37:17
Speaker 3: baby is picking up on the mother in a heightened
37:21
Speaker 3: nervous system state essentially right, it needs to.
37:25
Speaker 2: I mean that baby's survival depend on that parent. And
37:30
Speaker 2: so when you look at the communication stress between organisms,
37:34
Speaker 2: we're trying to understand is it is it visual? Is
37:38
Speaker 2: it haptic? So is it touch as a visual is
37:41
Speaker 2: what is communicating stressed? The best in these likely with
37:44
Speaker 2: these really studies with these really young kids babies, it's
37:47
Speaker 2: like the mother has to be touching the baby. Ah's
37:52
Speaker 2: watching it. Baby doesn't do it. But we've done our
37:55
Speaker 2: studies with like teammates, with couples. It's the visual signal
38:01
Speaker 2: that's a bigger signal about I need to know that
38:04
Speaker 2: you're stress. So if you're having an argument with your
38:08
Speaker 2: synthecon out there, for instance, you picking up on their
38:11
Speaker 2: stress reponds matters for coordinating that interaction, and if you don't,
38:17
Speaker 2: it's going to be more negative interactions and information that
38:21
Speaker 2: relationship broadly, and so what gets people to like cohere
38:26
Speaker 2: together and to survive You need to have some sort
38:28
Speaker 2: of way that would communicating with each other on these things.
38:31
Speaker 2: Like people are extremely social, like we're I mean, it's
38:34
Speaker 2: not debo social am or we're pretty up there. Yeah,
38:38
Speaker 2: So we can't so we don't seemply survive on our own.
38:40
Speaker 2: We survive in communities of other people. So having these
38:43
Speaker 2: ideas of ways of getting information from other people, what
38:46
Speaker 2: you're going to how you've interact with me, and what's
38:48
Speaker 2: going on, these are really important to be like, these
38:51
Speaker 2: are singles that are going to be prioritized in evolutionary
38:54
Speaker 2: processes anyway, M.
38:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, let's not talk but actually just on the epigenome,
39:02
Speaker 3: which is really interesting to talk about histone modification and
39:06
Speaker 3: that ability to switch genes on and off of me
39:09
Speaker 3: you mentioned earlier. My favorite was psychophysiological and that that
39:14
Speaker 3: interaction between the psychological and the physiological. I think what
39:19
Speaker 3: most people.
39:19
Speaker 1: Don't realize is that that our diet has a huge, huge.
39:25
Speaker 3: Influence on the epigenome that that we have all these
39:29
Speaker 3: metal donors from our diet, and if you're eating a
39:31
Speaker 3: shitty diet, your ability for your genome, your epigenome to
39:37
Speaker 3: function well is massively compromised.
39:43
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to pretend I know more about
39:45
Speaker 2: this than I do. But there's a burging literature on
39:48
Speaker 2: our gut biometing with our stress systems. Yet the diversity
39:53
Speaker 2: of our gut biome as acts. So you eat more
39:56
Speaker 2: metric foods everybody, Yes, you can't.
40:00
Speaker 1: Absolutely can.
40:01
Speaker 2: She eats some crowd eats me over like at it.
40:04
Speaker 2: My wife would probably better talk about sania, but she
40:08
Speaker 2: we we started doing more research in looking at people
40:11
Speaker 2: with diversified eating habits. It is bearing this out and
40:17
Speaker 2: we're trying to figure out whether it's a lifestyle thing
40:19
Speaker 2: or whether it's ses thing, or it's purely typing gout biome.
40:23
Speaker 2: But you're doing I don't want to get into like
40:26
Speaker 2: penit degree of like methods, but it involves egal samples
40:30
Speaker 2: and decomplication. And so if you want to take stool
40:33
Speaker 2: sables from people, look a look at basic diversification of
40:37
Speaker 2: bacteria and that human You can also implant ecal champles
40:41
Speaker 2: to other people, and it has a lot of promise
40:45
Speaker 2: because it's not just changing the function of their gut processes.
40:50
Speaker 2: It seems to be changing their psychology. Mm. But we
40:54
Speaker 2: don't know whether somebody who volunteers for a study might
40:59
Speaker 2: be slucking themselves into a change in the psychological process
41:03
Speaker 2: by self sucking the study. I'm trying. Yeah, yeah, Yes,
41:07
Speaker 2: it's a tricky event because it's not a true experiment.
41:09
Speaker 2: We can't just like take you on the stream like you.
41:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean, self selection bats, it's always going
41:17
Speaker 3: to be a big thing.
41:18
Speaker 1: But wouldn't it be I.
41:19
Speaker 3: Mean, I don't know, and I don't know if you're
41:21
Speaker 3: in this area, But wouldn't it be awesome to get
41:25
Speaker 3: a bunch of people, put them through.
41:29
Speaker 1: A bunch of stress tests, whether it's the tree or
41:32
Speaker 1: social stress test.
41:33
Speaker 3: Or whatever stress tests that you have, and look at
41:37
Speaker 3: their performance on a number of different metrics, and then
41:41
Speaker 3: give them a fecal transplant from people who are highly resilient,
41:46
Speaker 3: and then bring them back a few months later and
41:49
Speaker 3: retest them and see if there is any differences.
41:53
Speaker 1: Are we getting towards that type of experiment?
41:57
Speaker 3: We are?
41:59
Speaker 2: Oh?
42:00
Speaker 1: Wow?
42:01
Speaker 2: Brett Peters at Ohio University is involved in these kinds
42:05
Speaker 2: of studies and he is amazing their health psychology program
42:09
Speaker 2: with paying Hysicola Bratt. Other folks are We're trying to
42:14
Speaker 2: get there, but the issue is they're getting You have
42:16
Speaker 2: to get people to to consent, and so if you
42:20
Speaker 2: consent to this, you're already facing a little bit of
42:24
Speaker 2: a self selection bias at all. Yeah, yeah, so the
42:27
Speaker 2: best that's why we've done studies like I'm most confident
42:30
Speaker 2: about the study of you've done, Like in schools with
42:33
Speaker 2: kids who don't have they don't have a choice. Constantly,
42:36
Speaker 2: they're only assigned to do these kinds of tasks where
42:40
Speaker 2: we're trying to sell the it's not what's telling them
42:42
Speaker 2: what the thing you have to like sell people on
42:45
Speaker 2: them something no one's in believing if you tell them
42:48
Speaker 2: you need to think this way. The persuasion is about
42:52
Speaker 2: here's the benefits that can happen if you think like this.
42:56
Speaker 2: But we do a lot of engaging people as part
42:59
Speaker 2: of the interets, which is part of the studies. We're
43:02
Speaker 2: oftentimes especially in high school kids like we need your help.
43:06
Speaker 2: Like you talk high school kid, you talk Eveline, how
43:12
Speaker 2: do you communicate this message to somebody else that's coming
43:14
Speaker 2: up behind you in school, like your friend that's a
43:17
Speaker 2: year interview. What would you say to them, give me anestent,
43:20
Speaker 2: like we literally absently write it out, like we want
43:23
Speaker 2: you to be part of this. By doing that, it's
43:25
Speaker 2: like they're buying in to this content, They're buying into
43:28
Speaker 2: the message. It's the internalization process. You gonta ge people
43:31
Speaker 2: to internalize these messages. That's really hard to do. Can't
43:36
Speaker 2: tell people to think, especially Americans. Don't tell Americans what
43:38
Speaker 2: to think, and so they'll say no because you told
43:43
Speaker 2: me to think. You got trick them. Yes she wasn't believed.
43:47
Speaker 2: But like you guide them in this process where like, yeah,
43:50
Speaker 2: here's evidency that we can do. Let's go do this.
43:55
Speaker 2: I mean, here's so powerful for us.
43:58
Speaker 3: Hey, I think that's just what are things like philosophy
44:02
Speaker 3: and come in to play, right in reading stoic philosophy,
44:08
Speaker 3: reading stories around around people who've done things, because it's
44:13
Speaker 3: just it's sort of just kind of parcilliates into people's
44:20
Speaker 3: brains over time. And you know, and I think your
44:24
Speaker 3: example of the students giving them science based information about
44:28
Speaker 3: what's happening in their body helping.
44:30
Speaker 1: Their understanding of what's going on. I think all of
44:34
Speaker 1: this can be hugely, hugely helpful.
44:36
Speaker 3: So so so let's talk about actually, lets let's talk
44:40
Speaker 3: about kids, and let's talk about raising kids, because it's
44:42
Speaker 3: something that you're clearly passionate about, and I'm clearly passionate about.
44:46
Speaker 2: I'm very good at it.
44:49
Speaker 3: How are you Your kids are a bit younger than mine.
44:51
Speaker 3: I think only your kids eleven eight, eleven, Yeah, mine are.
45:00
Speaker 3: Mine are nineteen and fifteen. But for a long time,
45:04
Speaker 3: you know, I've told my kids life is amazing, but
45:08
Speaker 3: it's also going to be hard in parts, and you
45:12
Speaker 3: need to tree in yourself.
45:14
Speaker 1: For that eventuality. You know, this is where we need
45:18
Speaker 1: to do. Some hard things
45:21
Speaker 4: Happen