Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / Lawyers' Relationship Issues: You Know What I'm Going To Say

Transcript

Lawyers' Relationship Issues: You Know What I'm Going To Say · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

• 0:05
  Hi everybody, and welcome to the dr.
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  Psych mom show today. I am going to talk about lawyers
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  and their unique problems with relationships and why they
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  generally come into therapy before that.
• 0:17
  Please do subscribe because my previous episode was on doctors
• 0:21
  and that is the one that you will get to hear if you
• 0:24
  subscribe as the unique relationship issues of
• 0:26
  Physicians and before that was CEOs.
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  But that you don't need to subscribe to here.
• 0:32
  Okay. So have a lot of lawyer clients.
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  And when I said in the title, I said, you know what, I'm going
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  to say generally, people tend to think that lawyers have
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  difficulty in relationships because they like to debate and
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  they like to argue and this is certainly can be something where
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  they have to be right. And they're used to being,
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  right? And they're used to Gathering
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  all of their evidence and the spouses of lawyers will
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  frequently say that they have to provide so much evidence in
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  order for the lawyer spouse, to take them seriously and this is
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  not something that they like to do, obviously.
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  To feel like you have to Marshal up a whole bunch of proof before
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  you can speak to your husband or wife, right?
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  The other thing is that lawyers are super verbal.
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  So they're really good at writing and they're really good
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  at talking, because that's what they do.
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  But sometimes, they could talk around issues because they're
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  never exactly supposed to insert their own opinion.
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  So, despite them being so verbal, sometimes it can still
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  be very difficult for them to be emotionally, vulnerable.
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  And partners can feel like they're not being real.
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  Like, they could feel that the lawyers Trying to manage them or
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  handle them and to you know like use words against them instead
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  of using words to connect and that is obviously something that
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  nobody wants to feel like is handled or manipulated and this
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  is something that lawyers are good at because they're used to
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  using words to get what they want.
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  And they're used to like not putting any of their own self
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  into their writing or they're talking like their own opinion,
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  doesn't matter. It's about the evidence that
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  they have. And so if that's The way that
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  they engage and it frequently is within relational issues, and
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  that can make the person who is not a lawyer, feel less than,
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  and very handled and manipulated, and just kind of
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  bad because they don't think that the lawyer is really
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  showing up in any sort of genuine emotional sense.
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  So, who is drawn to these people then who's drawn to lawyers?
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  Well generally people that are impressed by a lot of, you know,
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  verbosity People that like people who talk, so you're never
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  going to really get somebody who is attracted to a lawyer
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  personality that is not on some level, you know, attracted to
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  that idea that the person is really smart and good with words
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  but this doesn't mean anything. Like so if you're also a secure
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  person then you could think that that's great and that it doesn't
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  have anything to do with your self-esteem, but if you're
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  insecure and you're partnered with a lawyer, then you can
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  think that you yourself. Always looking stupid and you
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  are never able to outthink them and then you could start to
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  think worse about yourself and be angry at them for making you
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  and your mind making you feel bad about yourself.
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  So, you know, the other thing is, is that sometimes when two
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  lawyers get together, they are just constantly arguing and
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  debating and I do have some couples like this and it's no
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  fun for anybody because they're sticking very much to the realm
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  of the intellectual and not the emotional.
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  So the sweet spot for lawyers is talking about intellectual
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  matters, versus emotional matters because the better a
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  lawyer, you are the less of your own emotion.
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  It is involved. Not that you can't use emotion
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  and speak with emotion but your own personal views should not be
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  influencing what you write or what you say.
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  And so it's really hard to do that all day and then to come
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  home and really be genuine and real and vulnerable emotionally
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  with a partner. So, what about, like, what about
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  more pragmatic concerns. So, so, like I talked about
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  training, for doctors training for lawyers, like, you know, not
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  that bad compared to doctors like frequently law school is
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  like, lots of fun and people meet, you know, they're not
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  obviously they're working hard but they're meeting, you know,
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  their spouse, and their parties and law school and things like
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  that. So, when they go into their
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  first job, it can be a lot. Bigger of a disconnect that
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  medical school where you're kind of like Always super stressed,
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  like, right from the beginning. There are people who are dating
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  somebody in law school and then they are very upset when the
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  person's hours are like really crazy in their first job out of
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  law school. So unlike in medical school
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  we're like it's kind of always bad, you know, this kind of
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  drops, you know, this becomes pretty bad like right away, you
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  know, and can be a very big difference from law school based
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  on the individual you know, person's law experience and that
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  Lead to loneliness the same as it does with people in any High
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  achieving occupation, that takes a lot of hours.
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  So people can feel like the person is never home, you know,
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  and unlike, when you are a doctor and you're saving lives,
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  like a lot of times people will condescend unfortunately to
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  their Partners, you know, beings having long hours at the office.
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  Particularly if it's like something like corporate law or
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  something, where the partner feels that it isn't really
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  helping anybody. So I see more people that are
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  our partners condescend to a lawyer partner and that person's
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  need to work long hours than I see people kind of sent to a
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  doctor partner, you know? And because of the the
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  difference is it's thought to be not life or death but yet it
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  requires so much so much time. And so obviously, if if anybody
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  is condescended to, then they're not they're going to get
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  defensive and then that's going to turn into a whole kind of bad
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  Dynamic. Now, lawyers, unlike any
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  Occupation that I work with. It's like kind of known like
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  they will joke so much about hating being a lawyer.
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  Like this just seems to be like what it is like everybody that
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  is lawyers. Like yeah, I'm a lawyer and
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  basically, I don't want to be a lawyer.
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  I don't know how I became a lawyer and, and they'll be like,
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  well, I guess, I know how, you know this happened, this
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  happened, but you know, I mean like, do I want to be a lawyer?
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  Like, I don't know. I never really thought about it.
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  I kind of got into it and then like maybe all of the super
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  full, Filled lawyers, obviously may not need therapy because
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  they're just so happy. But I'll tell you, there's a lot
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  of people in other occupations. I work with that are unhappy
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  with everything, but happy with their job.
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  I've like that's not frequent with the lawyers that I see.
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  They usually feel that their job is perpetuating their or
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  exacerbating. There are other issues and they
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  do not generally feel that there is enough existential
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  fulfillment, derived from their work as an attorney that it
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  makes their life better. Then again, maybe I just don't
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  see those people, but it tends to be pretty uniform that
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  lawyers at least joke around all in.
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  Very similar ways about how unfulfilling and kind of, you
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  know, frustrating. It is to be a lawyer in ways
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  that other people don't. So what does this mean?
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  Is when people come to midlife, and they're having existential
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  issues in general law is frequently a profession that
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  people want to change or to potentially think of different
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  ways. Ways to use that degree or what
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  have you? I do have some lawyers that are
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  happy with their jobs. Generally, they tend to have
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  more autonomy than the lawyers. And like real big firms where it
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  seems like people do not feel like they have much autonomy at
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  all. So, while there are some
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  lawyers, they don't have this more traditional Law Firm job.
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  They've figured out a way to make it work for them
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  differently and generally and this kind of goes into a larger
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  issue, but generally people are happier, the more autonomy that
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  they have you know, in life. In the more flexibility and the
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  more they can be in charge of their own domain, you know.
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  So being counseled you know for like a place versus being in a
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  whole firm where everybody's just like you, you know it seems
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  like it's better when you feel like you're like influencing
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  events more you know, on your own and that people are
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  deferring to you more, obviously.
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  And that you're more essential, you know, than just one of many.
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  And of course, that goes along with every sort of job, really.
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  But particularly so with this This.
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  Now when obviously lawyers can be very well paid and they have,
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  you know, a lot of prestige. But when they are partnered with
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  somebody that looks down on the profession, that seems to think
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  that the profession is kind of boring or you know, like really
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  not shouldn't be that that fulfilling or you know whatever.
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  Then of course it's going to make you feel worse about things
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  and like your partner's on supportive and I do see this a
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  lot more with lawyers than again with doctors or with CEOs and It
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  is similar to the people in finance, you know, frequently
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  and finance, the spouse will think.
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  Well, this is just kind of a meaningless and soulless
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  occupation. And I do see that happen
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  sometimes with lawyers, you know?
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  I mean, I there are, of course, lawyers that are doing great
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  work that our super meaningful and whatever just as there are
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  with doctors and everybody else. But it seems like for whatever
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  reason possibly because lawyers are so self-deprecating.
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  Maybe that allows, you know, the house to kind of be more open
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  about thinking that the occupation is stupid or
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  something. But either way, like, when
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  people are locked into that sort of dynamic, where one person
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  doesn't respect the other person's work, then that's no
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  good. I usually see a pattern where I
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  am a lawyer, will be partnered with a more creative woman.
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  So somebody who's engaged in the Arts in some way, or is just
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  more artsy, more like a Dharma & Greg type of scenario and this
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  seems to work well because they each think that the other one
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  brings something to the table, The thing about lawyers is,
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  Sunny the very fucking conscientious.
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  I mean, they do their forms, like instantly forms are
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  perfect, you know, and they're always on time.
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  Like they make sure that they can log into the zoom, like they
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  were like super conscientious people.
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  And so this is really a positive draw for somebody who is more,
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  you know, artsy and not conscientious and more of a
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  creative free thinker and a Bohemian.
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  So these people in a bed Best-case scenario, will really
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  be the yin to each other's Yang, but in a worst-case scenario,
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  after there's any sort of marital conflict or resentment
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  starts to build, then, obviously, they can resent one
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  another's. The lawyer can feel like they're
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  doing everything administrative, you know, money management.
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  All the forms, all the applications, all the
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  remembering everything. And the other person can feel
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  like they're the only person that brings any heart or Joy or
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  Spirit or spontaneity into the relationship.
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  And This is a dynamic that obviously, caricatures both
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  people and couples counseling can be very useful in helping
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  people step outside this box and realize that they are more than
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  just, you know, one personality trait but with lawyers in
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  particular because doctors can be conscientious to but there's
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  a lot more doctors with ADHD that I see the lawyers you know,
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  because doctors a lot of ER doctors in particular like they
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  thrive on you know, excitement and you don't know what's going
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  to happen next and it's life or death.
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  And you have to pay attention, you get an adrenaline rush.
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  Like we're as lawyers, don't have that same thing where
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  they're not in life or death situations in the same way.
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  So they really do tend to be quite a bit more conscientious
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  and they have lower rates of ADHD than what I see.
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  One that's doctors or CEOs, other people that frequently
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  have ADHD because a lawyer is doing a lot of the same things
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  everyday. At least a lot of the ones I
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  talked to and so they are people without ADHD frequently, you
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  know, become the person that does All of the boring things
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  around the house, you know, in terms of home projects and home
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  management Etc and then that could end up being resented a
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  lot, you know, because why am I, why do I have to go, you know,
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  to my job, where I push paper around and then I have to come
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  home and do all manner of, you know, stupid shit that you know,
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  maybe doesn't all have to fall in my lap but then the other
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  partner can't stay on top of it. So then this is how it works out
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  and that is like a common ADHD, not ADHD problem and I do see
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  it. Exactly.
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  Amplified more with lawyers because they're so good at like
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  forms you know and like figuring shit out like that.
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  So then sometimes they end up being the person that does
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  anything related to like paperwork which is a lot of shit
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  you know. In reality.
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  It's a lot of shit in the house so you know that can also end up
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  with some resentment. If things are not weighted
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  evenly or even remotely evenly. So anyway, if you are in this
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  sort of situation in the sort of dynamic, you are or married to a
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  lawyer, then you should listen to this together.
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  As I said for all three of these, I'm not going to do any
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  more, unless I don't know, some spirit moves me.
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  But if you are married to a lawyer or a doctor or CEO, and
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  you should listen to these episodes together because
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  they're not really anything people could really take issue
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  with, you know, or if they did, take issue with some of it.
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  It's interesting to talk to each other about because, you know,
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  everybody doesn't know people that are in the same dynamic as
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  them. Lecture lawyers, no lawyers
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  doctors, no doctors but if you're the lawyer's wife, Wife
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  sometimes, you don't talk to a lot of other lawyers wives,
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  sometimes you do it depends, you know, how you are in your
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  relationship, how much of an extrovert you are.
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  So, sometimes, it's interesting to see that people have kind of
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  similar, you know, love Dynamics and similar sorts of situations
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  that you could identify with. And that is a lot of what I do
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  is talk about things that are really standard among couples
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  and that can be very useful when people don't feel like they're
• 13:59
  the only person struggling with something and this lawyer
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  Dynamic is no is no. If you are a lawyer, the last
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  piece of advice that I give you is to really focus on having a
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  super different tone at home that you do in the office, even
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  more than other people in business because the lawyer tone
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  is just, it's kind of honestly like the teacher tone because I
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  hear that one from men as much as I hear complaints about the
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  lawyer tone from women, not that many women aren't lawyers.
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  I mean lots of women are lawyers and I work with some of them but
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  specifically but I do think more women are teachers than men but
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  the Association. I was going to say, is plenty of
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  times males. Say, my wife is a teacher, she
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  talks to me. Like, I'm her student and I hear
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  that, as much as I hear lawyers wives say, you know, he, he's,
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  he talks to me, like, he's proving a case, he talks to me,
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  like, he's at work. He talks to me, like, you know,
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  like he's always arguing, he's always got to be right.
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  Like, that's the same sort of thing.
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  So, if you are in an occupation where, like a lot of your thing
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  is being, right? And having to prove that you
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  were, Whether that's like a teacher who's always right?
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  Because you know, the only adult in the room of old children's
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  you're obviously smartest one and or if you are a lawyer and
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  your literal job is to be right then, you know, you got to watch
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  that tone at home because the tone may be far more
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  condescending than you realize. And you may be steering more
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  away from being vulnerable and Real by lapsing into lawyer
• 15:31
  speak. And that is really not a good
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  way to get laid at all. All according to like any women
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  that are married to lawyers that I work with.
• 15:40
  And on that note, I will let you go and please do subscribe.
• 15:44
  So you could hear the other one and over 110.
• 15:47
  Other subscriber only episodes, talk to you soon.
• 15:49
  Have a great day.