Latest / Becoming Anchored / Becoming Anchored S4E3: Debunking Myths Around Psychiatry with Elise Scott

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Becoming Anchored S4E3: Debunking Myths Around Psychiatry with Elise Scott · Becoming Anchored

0:01
Laura: I'm super excited for this episode today.
0:04
My name is Laura Dineen.
0:05
I'm one of your hosts.
0:06
Our other cohost, Lauren Jackson, is not with us today,
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but she is with us in spirit.
0:10
I am super excited for today's episode.
0:13
I think it will be really valuable for you all.
0:16
And so, yeah, if you're new to the show, welcome, welcome.
0:19
We're about two things on this podcast.
0:21
First and foremost, we are humans living life with you all.
0:24
And so Lauren and I talk a lot about, you know, some of the struggles
0:27
and pain that we have been through.
0:29
And then secondly, we also are therapists.
0:31
And so we have the amazing privilege of sitting with clients.
0:34
We really cherish the work that we do.
0:36
And so this platform has given us a wonderful opportunity to share some
0:40
of the, some of the things that we've learned over the years as clinicians.
0:43
So we're super grateful to have you all just a quick disclaimer.
0:46
This is not meant to be your therapy.
0:48
If you were in the state of Tennessee, we would love to work with you.
0:51
And if not, we encourage you to find someone local to you.
1:11
So without further ado, I am here to welcome Dr.
1:14
Elise Scott.
1:15
Welcome to the show today.
1:16
Elise: Thank you.
1:18
Laura: Yeah.
1:19
So I was
1:19
Elise: I did an honor to be here.
1:21
Laura: yeah, same.
1:22
I was thinking about who I wanted to have on the show.
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And Elise, you just came to mind.
1:26
I have so.
1:28
enjoyed collaborating with you and sharing clients with you
1:30
and just learning from you.
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And so I'm really excited for our listeners to learn from you as well today.
1:37
We are going to be talking about debunking some of the myths
1:40
associated with psychiatry.
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Some people in the clinical space refer to it as medication management.
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So Dr.
1:48
Scott is an amazing psychiatrist she's been through medical school,
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you know, she can share a little bit more about her training.
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But I thought that this would be a really valuable episode.
1:58
I do think that there are quite a few myths associated with
2:01
the world of psychiatry and medication for mental health.
2:04
So yeah,
2:05
Elise: What do you mean?
2:06
Everyone just totally understands it and has, there's, there's no reason that
2:11
anyone is like afraid of psychiatrists.
2:14
I would love to try to debunk some of those myths.
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And I will also give the disclaimer that I certainly don't represent all
2:22
of psychiatry or all psychiatrists.
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I have a very,
2:27
I would say I have a very, probably a very therapeutic style and a very
2:31
therapeutic bend to the work that I do.
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And so you can always find people who probably disagree with me, but
2:38
But I have pretty strong opinions, and I'm willing to share them.
2:41
Laura: yeah, I love it.
2:42
Well, and I love just like even your humor that you interjected
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like just now on the show.
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Like I think it lends itself towards like such a relational approach.
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So maybe this is like myth number one that like.
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you go to a psychiatrist and like you lay on the couch and the psychiatrist
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comes in with like a white coat and is like super buttoned up because here you
3:03
are like using humor in the first like five minutes of the show and I just
3:06
think that that is such a beautiful thing because it's most likely how you show
3:11
up in your sessions with your clients,
3:13
Elise: Oh, for sure.
3:14
I, one of my favorite quotes, I don't, I don't think it's a quote, I don't know,
3:19
but one of my favorite sort of ways to approach the world is this idea of like,
3:24
not taking ourselves too seriously.
3:26
Like, it's very important to me, it's something that I really try to embody
3:31
and also remind my patients is like, you know, like we got to just like
3:37
breathe and laugh and like embrace the absurdity of this stuff sometimes.
3:43
And the fact that like, if we take everything really, really seriously,
3:47
then we're kind of doing a disservice to ourselves and to everyone, you know,
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just like, let's just be present with each other and let's just connect.
3:56
And I think that's ultimately why.
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How I ended up here as a psychiatrist.
4:01
I mean like most days, like I have this thought of like, Oh my gosh, I feel
4:07
like I have the best job in the world.
4:08
I feel so lucky to be able to do what I do.
4:11
And that's not to say that I would ever go through the training process
4:14
again, cause I totally wouldn't now that I've been through it.
4:18
But now that I'm on this side of it, like just, I feel so honored to be able
4:21
to sit in a space with someone else and hear their story and help them, Make
4:27
sense of it and find meaning and purpose and a way through the hard times so
4:32
that they can get to the good times too.
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And I really like to kind of circle back.
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Like I feel like so much of that comes down to recognizing what
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you said, which is that we're all just humans and no one should be
4:46
taken too seriously in any of this.
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Like we're just trying to figure it out together.
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And I love having the opportunity to sit with people and figure that out.
4:56
Laura: Yeah, it's very evident just in the way you talk and Your body language.
5:00
I mean, I can just tell how much you care about your work and learn.
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And I talk about this quite frequently on the show.
5:07
It's like difficult calling it a job for us.
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I mean, there are definitely like hard days, but it's
5:12
like so much more than that.
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You know, it's like sacred.
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It's so fulfilling.
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And yeah, like you said, being able to sit with someone in their story
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and in their pain and connect and you know, And instill some hope.
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I think we talk a lot about hope on this show, and I think that's a
5:27
lot of both your work and my work.
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So yeah, I'm here for all of this.
5:31
I'm curious.
5:31
Okay, so we, we debunked one myth, right?
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That like your psychiatrist is gonna come in with like
5:36
Elise: can be approachable.
5:38
Laura: Yes.
5:38
Okay, so psychiatry.
5:39
Yeah, psychiatry can be approachable.
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What are other, I don't know, myths that you've heard in your line of
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work around the world of psychiatry?
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Elise: Yeah.
5:51
Okay.
5:52
So I think one really big myth that a lot of people come into at
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least medication management with is the belief that these meds, that
6:04
medicines are changing who they are,
6:07
Laura: Hmm.
6:07
Elise: right?
6:08
Like that.
6:08
If I take this medicine, it could alter my brain in a way that is,
6:14
Ultimately going to change who I am or like be permanent in some way.
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And so that's one of the biggest, one of my favorite things about my job is just
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like being able to sit down with someone and explain to them what we know about
6:29
how medicines work and what they can do.
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And
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I mean, there's, there's variability.
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There's lots of types of medicines out there, but at the end of the day,
6:40
most of the medications that we use.
6:43
in psychiatry are ultimately helping to increase neuroplasticity.
6:52
Neuroplasticity being your brain's ability to be flexible again.
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And so if we go through something really traumatic and we see this all the way
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down to the level of like fish, this is real, like this is evolutionary biology.
7:06
When we experience Over and over and over again, we get let down,
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like hard, bad, awful things happen.
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Our brains are wired to say, I am not gonna try anymore.
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I am gonna shut down all those pathways.
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I am going to hibernate.
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And I am gonna protect myself, because I've tried being hopeful.
7:30
I've tried these things, and it just sets me up to get burned again.
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Laura: Hmm.
7:35
Elise: And so whether it's trauma or depression or, you know, like anxiety,
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like so many of these mental illnesses or what we call mental illnesses
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that we treat are, are really like a result of our brain trying to protect
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us from being disappointed again.
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And so what happens is our brain starts to get really, really small and it just
8:01
starts to shut down a willingness to go in different directions, to be open minded,
8:08
to have these different thought processes because we're trying to protect ourselves.
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And most of the medicines in psychiatry actually just
8:16
help to reverse that process.
8:18
They help to tell your brain, okay, I know you're scared.
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I know you want to hibernate right now, but.
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You're not in the same environment you were before.
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Like things have changed and you really can't recover from trauma and
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depression if you don't open your mind back up to being present in the world
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and being able to form new networks.
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And so what these medicines do is they really just take that Play
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Doh that's turned to clay and they turn it back to Play Doh.
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Or they take that highway where every single exit ramp has just been blocked
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off and they just open up the exit ramps.
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But it's ultimately you that's driving down those exits.
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It's you that's working through therapy to like, you know, chisel
9:03
a different path for yourself.
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And the medicine is just helping prevent your brain from blocking
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you from being able to do that work.
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Laura: Gosh, I love all of this.
9:15
There's so much compassion that I hear when you're talking to of like, just even
9:20
that analogy that you used around like the clay back to Plato or the highway system.
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And I think it's an invitation to really look at the narratives that
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we've told ourselves of like, this is my fault versus, you know what,
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like this is actually protective for me and it's kept me alive, but maybe
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it's not working for me anymore.
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I don't know.
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Elise: Yeah.
9:40
Absolutely.
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And I think it really like when people hear that explanation,
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it's so freeing, right?
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To be like, wait, it's not that I'm not trying hard enough in therapy, it's
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that I'm literally like trying to drive over a roadblock, you know, like, like,
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it's just, and, and, you know, and that, It's our brain, but it's not like
10:00
it's, you're not doing anything wrong.
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It's not anything broken about you.
10:04
It's actually something that makes a lot of sense.
10:06
If you go back, you know, and you look at these times in your life where it was
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protective to be able to shut down and not put yourself out in the world again.
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It just, our brains kind of go overboard and, and everyone
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exists on a spectrum with this.
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So there are people in the world who are born with like a genetic predisposition
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for depression and anxiety for their brains to shut down very easily.
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And some of those people.
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really benefit from being on medicine for their entire life.
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Because no matter what we do, no matter what work they do, life
10:46
is traumatic, bad things happen.
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And their brain just wants to go back to that space no matter what.
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And then there's people right around the corner, their next door neighbor who could
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go through a thousand horrific traumas and their brain just isn't built that way.
11:01
And somehow their brain doesn't do that.
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Right?
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Just because they're different human and they came in with different genetics
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and we can compare ourselves and be like, why the heck am I so vulnerable
11:14
or sensitive or whatever this is?
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But it's just like, it's a combination of how you were born and what
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happened to you when you were young.
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And some people just are really, really vulnerable to it.
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And these medicines help keep them in a state that they can move past
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the hard things that happen in life.
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Laura: Yeah, I think that comparison is really prevalent in my work
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as I'm, you know, potentially making the referral to you.
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Just like, why do I need these medications and my mom doesn't, or my
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friend doesn't, or whoever it might be.
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I think that's really, really prevalent.
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And so this is where, like, as a therapist, I'm like exploring that with
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a client, like Even that comparison in and of itself, I'm asking them to talk
11:59
to you about that so that they can get the appropriate psychoeducation around
12:03
what these medications do and Yeah, like even like you said like sometimes
12:08
life is harder I think some of us move through the world a little bit more
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sensitive to traumas and to hard things that happen and soak that in a little
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bit more than like the neighbor down the road, like you were talking about.
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So, and it's not good or bad or right or wrong.
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It just kind of is.
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It's that epigenetic piece that we like literally can't control.
12:28
You mentioned one myth too, and what you were sharing so that I want to circle
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back around to that I see all the time.
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So I do see is medication going to change me?
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Is it going to change my brain?
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I also see.
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Clients that are committed to therapy and maybe have never had a psychiatrist
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or never had maybe effective medication management, they'll say something like,
12:50
is medication like doing the work for me?
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So say, you know, the kind of the what if I come off medication and I revert
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back to exactly how things were before.
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You know, of course I'll encourage them to talk to you about
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that question that they have.
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And we're also like debunking some of that in therapy.
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Like, no, like let's be very clear.
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Like you still have to take the steps and practice the skills.
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And in my opinion, as a therapist, like I do think that you seeing
13:18
doctor, somebody like Dr.
13:19
Scott would be helpful for you so that you can actually even
13:22
start to practice the skills.
13:24
But that's a myth that I see quite frequently in my office as well.
13:28
Elise: Yeah.
13:29
I love that you brought that up and that's a tricky one, but
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I'll tell you my take on it.
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So every single time I started medicine and someone, because there's
13:39
people on the other side too, who are like, I don't want to do therapy.
13:42
I only want medicine, right?
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Like
13:44
Laura: Yeah.
13:44
Yeah.
13:45
Elise: way out.
13:45
It feels like the easy way out.
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And what I say to them is I say, This medicine is not going to work
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if you just sit in your bed, right?
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If we open up the exits on the highway, but you don't take them,
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it's not going to do a damn thing.
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It's just gonna like, you know, like all it's going to do is it creates potential,
14:02
but you have to be the one to do it.
14:05
So if somebody starts taking medicine and they're getting better, then
14:10
that tells me that they are doing the work, you know, and that work
14:14
might look different for everyone.
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For some people, that work means.
14:18
intensive psychotherapy for years.
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For other people, they just needed a small little nudge in the right direction.
14:25
And they already had the skills.
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They just weren't in a place where they could utilize them.
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And maybe they had done therapy before, or maybe they just like, you know, were
14:37
raised in a way that they like learned these things that really like were enough
14:41
that medication alone was able to help them just be in a place to use them.
14:46
So everyone that gets better on medicine, it's not through laziness.
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It's, it's through the fact that like, they're actually
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having to take those pathways.
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And so that's kind of my biggest debunk of that is like, if you get
14:59
better, you are doing the work.
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And so you deserve to give yourself credit for that, whatever that work looks like.
15:05
Laura: Yeah.
15:05
We are so quick to like minimize, or a lot of us are so quick to
15:09
minimize our accomplishments or have, you know, maybe difficult, have
15:13
difficulty highlighting our strengths.
15:16
And so this is like that strengths based approach of like, Hey, let's highlight
15:19
what you are doing, the work that you are engaging in to feel better, to get better.
15:25
Yeah.
15:25
I love that.
15:26
Elise: Yeah.
15:27
I think another thing that another big barrier that people feel that's related
15:31
to this is the idea of I don't want to be dependent on something for the
15:36
rest of my life, you know, and I think there's different ways to look at this.
15:43
But what I always say about that is, well, You can always stop the medicine.
15:49
And when you stop that medicine, you are going to be the exact, like, you are not
15:54
going to be any different than you were before you started it, other than the fact
15:57
that you knew what was possible, right?
15:59
Like, that can change you, right?
16:01
And like, the process you go through.
16:03
But, you're not developing an addiction to this medicine.
16:07
This medicine is, it's temporarily changing your brain to make
16:11
it more available to heal.
16:15
And at any point in your life, if you choose to stop it or, you know, for
16:22
some people, their brain will go back to that state of being really rigid.
16:26
Like it will go back to clay.
16:28
It might some people, it doesn't, you know, and we can't always
16:32
predict what that's going to be.
16:34
Some of us can predict it for ourselves.
16:36
Cause we just know like, man, I've been there, done that, but ultimately.
16:41
You're not dependent any more dependent on that medicine than
16:44
you were before you started it.
16:46
You just have seen what can happen if you allow your brain to like truly utilize.
16:54
It's full self and not be in this state of fear where it has shut itself down.
16:59
Laura: Yeah.
17:00
Elise: And I think another thing that really scares people is this,
17:04
the reason they feel dependent on a medicine is because if they like
17:08
miss a dose or they hear stories of a friend who like, you know, had horrible
17:13
side effects because they stopped it.
17:15
And I'll say that a lot of times that's just because they
17:18
stopped it too rapidly, right?
17:20
Our brains are expecting this input.
17:23
And if you all of a sudden don't give it to you, like what you
17:26
experienced that day, that's not who you are without the medicine.
17:30
That's just your brain trying to communicate to you.
17:33
Hey, I'm looking for this thing that you've been helping me out with.
17:36
And, and it's not there, but.
17:39
Most, I literally, I haven't run into a patient that where I wasn't able to, if
17:44
we just did it slowly and thoughtfully, that wanted to come off a medicine
17:48
where we weren't very able to do that.
17:51
And the longer you've been on it, the harder it is, but most of the time it's
17:54
because they stopped it too abruptly.
17:58
And then I would say on the other end of things, like if they had a
18:01
bad experience starting it, a lot of times it's because it was started
18:04
too rapidly or too high a dose and their body just like wasn't prepared.
18:10
Laura: Yeah, yeah, and generally speaking, obviously, caveat
18:14
here that this is not therapy.
18:15
I'm not giving, you know, recommendations to our listeners today, but generally
18:19
speaking, I will discourage clients from like reading forums online or
18:24
talking to friends about medication because that's not an informed decision.
18:29
discussion.
18:29
Oftentimes it's driven by our own anxiety or fears, and
18:34
it's not super helpful, right?
18:37
Versus like talking to a provider like yourself that is like literally
18:40
been through medical school and, you know, knows all the ins and outs and
18:44
can get a thorough biopsychosocial background on them or even lab work.
18:48
And so, Yeah, I do think that that can cause even more barriers
18:53
when clients come in and they're like, yeah, I've Googled this.
18:55
And this is what this person across the world says about this medication.
18:59
Like that is.
19:00
It's not super helpful oftentimes too.
19:03
Elise: Yeah.
19:03
And every, if you remember that everyone's brain is different and
19:08
you know, at least I have a lot of experience and a lot of training to
19:12
try to figure out and anticipate, okay, how is your brain going to respond?
19:15
And it's going to be really different.
19:17
We don't always get it right on the first try, but it's really helpful to
19:20
go through the process with somebody who kind of has a sense of what's
19:24
happening and can sort of help you navigate that and also understand
19:28
what you're experiencing in your body.
19:30
Laura: Just another barrier that's coming to mind is like what I will
19:34
hear with clients oftentimes if I'm making a referral to you or psychiatry
19:39
as a whole, they will say things like I'm so weak because I have to take
19:43
medication or I failed at therapy, which I know we've already alluded to
19:48
some of like debunking some of these myths, but I was just curious, like.
19:52
If you can maybe speak to those myths and how you would respond to that.
19:58
Elise: I would respond and be like, how?
20:00
What
20:01
Laura: Yeah.
20:02
Elise: makes this?
20:02
Like, do you say that to your spouse who's on an antihypertensive medicine
20:07
because they have high blood pressure?
20:09
Do you say that like, you know, to someone like, would you say that
20:13
to yourself because you were like, like any other illness or medical
20:18
condition that we treat, why do we treat this any differently?
20:22
Laura: Yeah.
20:23
Elise: the biology of our brain trying to help us and being wrong, right?
20:29
Which happens all the time.
20:31
Like most medical conditions out there, right?
20:34
Like you wouldn't blame yourself for developing cancer, but it happens
20:39
through the same process that depression or anxiety or, you know, or PTSD
20:47
develops is it's, It's literally our body just like doing its best
20:50
to survive and then doing something that ultimately is detrimental to us.
20:55
And who are we to judge what treatment?
20:59
Is like weak or not weak.
21:02
It sucks that the history of mental health, that, that
21:05
there was this dualism, right?
21:07
That we separated mind and body as if these were two totally separate things.
21:11
And we still do this as a culture.
21:13
We like separate anything that is cognitive.
21:19
from physical, but ultimately it's your brain.
21:22
Right.
21:23
And that's scary and weird.
21:25
And like, you start to think about it too hard.
21:27
And you're like, wait, everything, like the essence of who I am,
21:29
like all of this, like, how is this also an organ in my body?
21:33
Right.
21:34
And like, how do I think objectively?
21:36
And it gets really messy.
21:37
And that's why it's hard.
21:38
And I think that's why there's so much stigma.
21:40
Like I understand the history of it.
21:43
But we're at a point now that we realize Wait a minute, like at the
21:48
end of the day, like, you know, everything that's happening in our
21:51
body is coming from our brains.
21:53
And for those, those patients I work with who, for example, have
21:58
extreme somatic experience of stress.
22:01
Right.
22:02
And maybe it doesn't manifest in like traditional anxiety, but maybe they.
22:07
struggle with like chronic pain or they struggle with IBS or they struggle
22:13
with, you know, these other ways in which our body carries stress and
22:18
communicates to us like I'm not okay.
22:22
And we judge ourselves as if you have control over that.
22:25
Like your brain is sending that signal.
22:27
Like, you know, we can't control a thought that passes through
22:32
our brain any more than we can control what our blood pressure is.
22:35
Laura: yeah, yeah.
22:38
Yeah, there's a lot of I think stigma, a lot of I think work that we can do
22:43
both in your office and in mine around like, hey, where did you learn this?
22:49
Has this been something that has been you know, shared with
22:52
you or, you know, told to you or where is this belief coming from?
22:57
And like you, like you said, like, is this something that you
23:01
want to continue holding onto?
23:03
Is this helping you?
23:04
Is this serving you?
23:05
And most likely the answer is going to be no.
23:08
Because a lot of times at the end of the day in my office, I find that We want
23:13
relief when we're in pain, we want relief.
23:16
And so if we can work through some of the shame and some of this stigma that
23:20
might be there, I think, you know, that's one way that we can start to find
23:25
relief is through medication management.
23:28
Elise: Yeah.
23:29
Yeah.
23:31
And even, and it doesn't even have to be medication management.
23:34
Like I say this to people all the time, you're here just to like have
23:38
a consultation and like learn, like learn a little bit more about what is
23:42
happening in your brain and what the options are that are available to you.
23:46
Laura: Yeah.
23:47
Yeah.
23:48
Elise: what's out there.
23:49
And I like, I never want people to feel pressured because that's a personal
23:52
choice for every single person.
23:55
And even though I literally do this for a living, I mean, I
24:00
like, like I have experienced that same thought in myself, right.
24:05
Of like, man, like I, you know, like when I've been faced with like using
24:10
medicine, you know, to help myself through my own mental, you know,
24:13
health, like judging myself, right.
24:16
Or saying like, Oh, like, you know, like I just, I get it.
24:21
It's, it's built into who we are and it takes a lot of work
24:25
and a lot of objectivity to be able to see it any differently.
24:28
And so I never ever want someone to feel bad for feeling that way.
24:33
I just want to help them see it a different way.
24:35
And it comes down to that, like, you know, classic dialectic and what we do, right?
24:39
That, like, just because we're responsible for doing something
24:43
about it doesn't mean it's our fault.
24:44
But we equate those together, we, you know, we do it every time,
24:48
every time we think about it.
24:50
And ultimately we just have to remember, like, just because we're
24:53
in control, just because, like, our behavior is our own responsibility
24:58
doesn't mean it's our fault..
25:00
Laura: Absolutely.
25:01
And I love what you shared.
25:02
Right.
25:02
And this is something that I will, you know, just discuss with clients if I
25:06
do think that they could benefit from seeing a psychiatrist is like, Hey,
25:10
let's, let's have a consultation just so you know what your options are.
25:14
And I think there's so much agency in that, especially if clients struggle
25:18
with agency or struggle with like.
25:20
feeling empowered.
25:21
Maybe you go see Dr.
25:23
Scott and you choose not to take the medication, but at
25:25
least you have the information.
25:27
And so I do love that approach that you're taking of like, Hey, I really want to
25:30
empower and equip my clients to make the best decisions for themselves versus like,
25:35
You writing them a script and then like having to take it like you're, you're
25:39
doing so much like empowerment work here too of like, Hey, what do you think?
25:42
What's important to you?
25:43
What is the quality of life that you want to live?
25:47
And, and are you there or not?
25:48
And if you're not, let's talk about it.
25:50
Elise: Yeah, absolutely.
25:52
And sometimes I don't recommend medicine, you know, I'm like, Hey, I
25:55
don't really think this is going to help, or this is what it could do.
25:58
You know, these are the limits.
26:01
Laura: Absolutely.
26:02
Any other, I know we've talked about five or six here.
26:04
Any other big myths that you see in your office?
26:08
Elise: So I'll talk about this one and we can include it.
26:13
If you think that it's powerful, but I think one of the, there's a
26:16
really big fear that, That medicine is going to cause suicidality.
26:21
And I see this like among like tons of people in the field, right?
26:26
Like there is this belief that like, okay, these medicines are really
26:30
dangerous and I might start it.
26:32
And, and I would like be at risk of killing myself.
26:36
And so I want to bring that one up because that data was largely misinterpreted.
26:43
And the reality is that some of the medicines that we use to
26:47
treat anxiety and depression.
26:50
Activate us when we start them and so activation just means that maybe you were
26:56
super, super depressed before and all of a sudden we just talked about this, right?
26:59
We're opening pathways in the brain that have been closed for a while and that
27:05
can feel like that can be stimulating.
27:07
That can increase all of our thoughts in general.
27:11
And it might mean that you, you have more thoughts across the board.
27:17
You might even have more thoughts that are suicidal in nature, but what
27:21
we know is that there's never been an increase in intent or committed
27:26
suicide from these medicines.
27:29
It's that you're taking someone who is depressed and you're
27:32
helping them have other thoughts.
27:35
And, of course, they're going to have thoughts that are
27:36
related to their depression.
27:38
They're having suicidal thoughts because they're depressed.
27:40
They're not having suicidal thoughts because of some brain
27:43
altering substance that's making them think outside of themselves.
27:48
And and there's something that can be like really healing about that too.
27:52
So, so I really try to not scare people about that.
27:57
I say, you know, like when you start this medicine, you could have a, you
28:00
could start having a lot of thoughts you haven't had in a while, right?
28:03
Or those thoughts might be different.
28:04
Those thoughts might be suicidal and we should definitely take that seriously,
28:08
but we also shouldn't be afraid of it.
28:10
Because just because you have a suicidal thought doesn't mean you're going to act
28:13
on it or anything bad is going to happen.
28:16
And when we look at the data and the literature, it didn't people didn't come,
28:20
people didn't try to hurt themselves.
28:23
They just had more of those thoughts and we really panicked and like freaked
28:27
out as a society as a result of that.
28:29
And I think it really does a disservice because after that information
28:32
came out, the rates of use of.
28:35
anti depressants dropped significantly and the number of
28:39
suicide deaths went up dramatically.
28:41
And so we're trying to save people and yet it's like, you know, we really aren't
28:46
weighing the greater good with this.
28:48
And, and so I really like, that's another myth.
28:50
I really try to debunk with people to say that like, you're still
28:54
in control of your behavior.
28:56
You know, like this is not something that we have to be terrified of.
29:00
Yes, I'm so glad I'm here with you for it.
29:02
And yes, that's terrifying, but we're going to learn to trust you
29:07
and we're going to get through this.
29:08
And this is just a short term thing that we see because we're like letting
29:12
your brain wake up again after it's been in hibernation for a long time.
29:16
Laura: Like I'm learning from you today too.
29:17
So thank you for your wisdom.
29:18
I mean, this makes a lot of sense.
29:20
And we talk to clients a lot about this, whether it's
29:23
suicidality or other types of.
29:25
intrusive thoughts, right?
29:27
Like our thoughts tend to be automatic and how we respond to them is very different
29:32
than the content of the thought itself.
29:34
And so I love that you're giving education around that to your patients
29:39
along with like taking it seriously.
29:40
Like, yeah, let's talk about it.
29:42
Let's, let's figure out a game plan.
29:44
Let's maybe pivot if we need to.
29:47
But that's the benefit of having someone like you in their corner.
29:50
So I'm really glad that you addressed that myth too.
29:52
That makes a lot of sense to me.
29:55
Elise: the only, the final thing that I want to say as it relates to myth
29:58
busting is one that's like very near and dear to my heart, but I am, know, like
30:05
I love to see everything, but one of my favorite things to do is women's mental
30:10
health and reproductive psychiatry.
30:12
And the reason why is because there are more myths and more, there's
30:16
more misinformation out there.
30:19
In the world of women who are trying to conceive, who are pregnant, who
30:24
are postpartum, there's so much fear and stigma and shame and guilt around.
30:31
Mental illness during that time of our lives.
30:33
And I, and it breaks my heart.
30:39
It is, it is heartbreaking to see like what we as a culture believe when it
30:43
comes to treating women during that period of their life of like, there's
30:48
just so much misinformation out there.
30:50
And so.
30:52
If I could be on my soap box for even one minute, it would be to just like
30:56
really encourage any woman in that time of their life or who's going
31:01
through that experience or who might feel some of that to see a reproductive
31:06
psychiatrist, to see someone who really does this work and knows the reality
31:11
of it because there's so much societal pressure to not be on treatment if you're.
31:19
Trying to conceive if you're pregnant, if you're breastfeeding.
31:23
And it's, it's so, it's just so inconsistent with what we know, which
31:28
is that a healthy mom equals a healthy baby and that not treating women.
31:36
Leads to very poor outcomes for babies, but treating women is super
31:41
safe and like leads to great outcomes.
31:44
And like, you know, if, if I, I, like, there's a stronger reason to treat
31:49
because you're pregnant, you know, and.
31:51
I just, I hate that it's taken us so long and that we're so behind
31:55
in helping spread this information, but I just want to, to share that.
32:01
Because I think that a lot of people are in pain and confused
32:05
and, and just misinformed.
32:09
Laura: Yeah.
32:10
I'm just curious, like what is some of the misinformation out there about treating
32:15
Elise: Yeah.
32:16
I would say that a lot of doctors, including psychiatrists, tell
32:21
women that they need to come off of medicines in order to get
32:24
pregnant or while they're pregnant.
32:26
Medicines that we know are incredibly safe in pregnancy and
32:30
that actually are protective from transmission of stress, like in utero.
32:37
And it's devastating and it, you know, like there's, there's few things in
32:44
the world as hard as like carrying a human and then having to go through
32:48
that while also not treating, you know, Like, and we do, I mean, like we
32:55
do this with other medicines too, but we don't even think twice about it.
32:58
We have more safety data on psychiatric medications and pregnancy
33:04
than any medicine out there.
33:05
And it's just because of stigma.
33:07
It's because people look at, they compare, they look at the drug.
33:12
And they don't account for any of these other factors, right?
33:15
Which is that like, yeah, the person on that medicine was depressed.
33:19
That's why their baby had these outcomes.
33:21
Right.
33:21
But actually if we treat that depression or we treat that anxiety, They have
33:26
way better outcomes, way better growth, way better bonding, like
33:31
everything they're, they're very skewed.
33:34
And it's just because we went in looking for a certain answer and not
33:38
accounting for like, well, what are the risks of not treating during pregnancy?
33:42
What are the risks of like, what are the risks to that mom?
33:46
And how does that get transferred to, you know, the baby inside of her?
33:52
Laura: Hmm.
33:53
Yeah.
33:53
That makes a lot of sense.
33:54
And you know, having, you know, had my daughter, she's two now I
33:59
have such a deeper level of like compassion and empathy for women.
34:05
Who are either trying to conceive or have had babies after some of my
34:09
own experiences that I went through when I was pregnant and postpartum.
34:13
It's such a vulnerable time.
34:15
And especially if you have someone in a position of power, right?
34:18
So a doctor, a psychiatrist telling you like, Hey, you need
34:21
to come off these medications.
34:23
And I think a lot of people just kind of accept that
34:26
because they're, they must know.
34:28
And so I love that you are debunking that myth.
34:31
And I think there's a lot of value in providing like more accurate.
34:37
information that is actually like going to help women that are in
34:41
pain because when we are suffering, like with something that's maybe
34:44
untreated, like we're in pain.
34:46
And so I love what you just shared.
34:49
Elise: Absolutely.
34:51
Laura: Yeah.
34:52
This has been a delightful conversation.
34:53
Thank you so much for coming on today.
34:55
Elise: Yeah, thank you for listening to me just go off
34:59
with all my passionate beliefs.
35:02
Laura: I love it.
35:03
That was actually the word that came to mind.
35:04
It's passion.
35:05
It's a good thing.
35:05
I love it.
35:07
Of course.
35:07
Do you want to leave our listeners with either an affirmation or homework today?
35:15
Elise: Oh,
35:18
I think if I would leave you.
35:22
With any homework from today, it would be to just ask yourself, like, what, what
35:29
beliefs am I carrying as it relates to psychiatry, as it relates to medication
35:37
management, And just like my body and my mental health, like what beliefs do I
35:44
carry and how true are they really like what, what's, what stigma might be built
35:49
in there for whatever reason from society, from how you were brought up and just
35:54
kind of ask yourself what that is and whether there's really any evidence for
35:58
it, because I have a feeling that Most of us, all of us are carrying something.
36:04
Even if we have to challenge it every day, we, we carry it.
36:07
And so I think the first step is just noticing it and then asking yourself,
36:11
okay, now that I've noticed this, is there anything I would change about my life?
36:15
Is there anything I want to do differently?
36:18
Yeah, that's what I would leave you with.
36:20
Laura: I love it.
36:21
I love it.
36:22
And you know, an affirmation that's coming to mind is really just like, I
36:25
am capable of caring for myself, right?
36:30
Medication management, you know, for those of you listening, if you're already
36:32
taking meds or maybe you're thinking about taking meds or even having a
36:36
consultation with a psychiatrist, this is really just an encouragement that that
36:39
can be part of your like self care plan.
36:41
Elise: Yeah, absolutely.
36:44
Laura: Yeah.
36:45
How can our listeners find you?
36:47
Elise: So yeah, I'm.
36:50
I'm online.
36:51
I have a website, Elise got md.
36:54
com.
36:55
If you go there, you can find my email address.
36:58
You can find a text number.
37:00
You can really reach out to me anytime.
37:02
And yes, I have boundaries cause we all should have them.
37:05
So I'm not going to respond all the time, but I'm very accessible and I love.
37:10
Meeting people.
37:11
I love having these conversations and being challenged.
37:13
So if you are just interested in connecting, please reach out.
37:16
Or if you're interested in a consultation or seeing me that's
37:20
how you would find me too.
37:22
Laura: I love it.
37:23
And y'all, I just cannot, you know, speak highly enough of Elise.
37:27
I have been so impressed collaborating with her with shared clients and
37:30
just getting to know her more.
37:32
And the quality of work that she does is just amazing.
37:36
And so you all would be so lucky to work with her.
37:38
So yeah, thanks for your time today and for coming on the Becoming Anchored show.
37:42
Elise: Thank you for having me.
37:44
I'm so honored.
37:45
Laura: Of course.
37:45
See you next time.
37:46
Take care guys.
37:47
Elise: Bye.