Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #80 – Using AI to Shorten Case Timelines and Increase Case Value with Josh Schmerling

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#80 – Using AI to Shorten Case Timelines and Increase Case Value with Josh Schmerling · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

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  I had one law firm call me a couple of weeks ago that said they
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  used our tool in
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  the middle of litigation to help with the cross-examination of
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  an expert and that
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  our tool completely transformed the cross-examination and it
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  completely transformed
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  SPEAKER_01: the case.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they were able to get a really nice seven-figure verdict from it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
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  SPEAKER_00: Strategies.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sweet.
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  SPEAKER_00: Success.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hello, everyone, and welcome.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to Sharp Strategy, Sweet Success.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Tiffany Swadensky.
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  SPEAKER_00: And today we have with us Josh Schmerling of LawPro AI.
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  SPEAKER_00: I actually met him at the AI for PI Expo down in Orlando.
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  SPEAKER_00: That was back in mid-January, if I remember right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about his program and the tool and what it does.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was really impressed.
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  SPEAKER_00: And
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  SPEAKER_00: What stood out to me from that conversation is that I asked you,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
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  SPEAKER_00: how are attorneys doing this before AI?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, how are they doing this kind of stuff in the nineties?
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  SPEAKER_00: And you said like, forget the nineties, like how are they doing it now?
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  And a lot of law firms are still using antiquated systems for
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  medical records
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  SPEAKER_00: collection,
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  billing and document review and a bunch of other stuff that is
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  still can do.
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  He said it to me before the podcast and it was a little too
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  sophisticated for me to remember.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I'll go ahead and let him introduce himself and his tool.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so you guys can get to learn more about him.
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  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much, Josh.
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  SPEAKER_01: Great, Tiffany.
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  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Give you a little bit of background about myself.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a personal injury attorney myself out of Maryland.
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  Started my own law firm right out of law school and grew my
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  personal injury firm
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  SPEAKER_01: from nothing to a decent firm with about 12 people.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we were doing decently.
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  And then we got stuck and our revenue had been stuck for a
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  number of years and we
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  SPEAKER_01: were not growing any longer.
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  And what I realized was we really had a pain point in terms of
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  how to deal with the
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  SPEAKER_01: medical records and the bills.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I realized that with the technology out there today,
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  that there was a better way to do it because I was having a ton
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  of time and
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  SPEAKER_01: resources going into understanding the medical records and bills.
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  So what I eventually did as a need for my law firm is I
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  co-founded LawPro.ai with
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  my brother and we hired a whole team of data scientists and
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  engineers to create
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  SPEAKER_01: LawPro.ai,
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  which basically takes all the medical records and bills for any
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  personal injury
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  SPEAKER_01: case.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it breaks it down to makes it really easy to understand.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it does file summaries and case level summaries.
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  SPEAKER_01: It does visual timelines so you can tell the treatment dates.
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  SPEAKER_01: It does a whole medical chronology.
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  And then you can interact with all the medical records and
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  bills as well by asking
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  specific questions or wanting to see certain things or certain
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  items or have
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  SPEAKER_01: certain documents drafted like a demand letter.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so it got rid of the pain point I was having in my law firm.
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  Since implementing LawPro.ai,
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  we've grown by about 3x in the last couple of years.
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  And a large part of that is we're able to shorten time on desk
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  and increase case values.
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  SPEAKER_01: And LawPro.ai is a tool that's used for medical records and bills from
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  SPEAKER_01: pre-litigation all the way to litigation and negotiations.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm really curious when you found a company,
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  SPEAKER_00: like essentially a SaaS company,
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  SPEAKER_00: or would you call a law pro AI SaaS?
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  SPEAKER_00: Is that the category it falls into?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So when you talk about like founding something like that,
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  did you walk into like that first meeting with a clear picture
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  of what the tool
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  SPEAKER_00: will do and all of its capabilities or how did that come about?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: my brother and I started chatting about what the pain point was,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we started chatting about how we could fix it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I started with,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  we need a medical chronology because that's what my team was
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  spending their time on
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  SPEAKER_01: was creating medical chronologies.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I said, that's what we really need here is a medical chronology.
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  SPEAKER_01: Then when we saw that our team could really start doing that,
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  SPEAKER_01: then we started saying,
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  SPEAKER_01: all right,
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  SPEAKER_01: what else can we do here?
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  SPEAKER_01: Right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Medical chronology is not the only thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: We know we can do that now.
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  SPEAKER_01: We've got that taken care of.
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  SPEAKER_01: What else can we do?
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  And that's when we started moving into some of these other
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  items that we have in
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  terms of drafting documents and summaries and a visual timeline
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  and be able to
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  SPEAKER_01: really interact with the case and chat with it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And now we just have so many other ideas.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now that we see what's possible,
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  SPEAKER_01: that we keep coming out with more technology,
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  SPEAKER_01: new technology every quarter.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to keep releasing new items.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, your tool does a lot.
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  How do you think like you could have built this or something
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  similar pre chat GPT
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  SPEAKER_00: or pre AI,
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  SPEAKER_00: or was that like,
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  SPEAKER_00: what kind of technologies have you used to build this?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we use a lot of different technologies to build this.
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  SPEAKER_01: What's really important to know is we are not a like ChatGPT wrapper.
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  So lawper.ai is not just like using ChatGPT on the back end and
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  giving results to
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  SPEAKER_01: people that they would be able to get on ChatGPT.
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  SPEAKER_01: We don't do that.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we're using about 10 to 12 different technologies on the back end.
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  that are all going through all the different data that we have
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  every time.
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  And the last piece of the technology that goes through
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  everything is something that
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  SPEAKER_01: we've created.
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  SPEAKER_01: We call it hallucination prevention technology,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is patent pending,
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  that goes back through everything before it goes to the end
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  user to pull out any
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  SPEAKER_01: issues,
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  SPEAKER_01: any potential hallucinations or errors to autocorrect them.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the last part of what we're doing.
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  But we have a whole stack of items that's going through all the
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  records and bills
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  SPEAKER_01: before it gets to the end user.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I have a second question,
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  SPEAKER_00: but first,
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  will you explain to my listeners what a ChatGPT wrapper is and
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  maybe like where
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  SPEAKER_00: they've seen that kind of program?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: so I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of people out there that claim they do AI,
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  SPEAKER_01: but if you really dig deep into it,
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  what's happening is you're putting into a company called XYZ
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  Company and all XYZ
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  SPEAKER_01: Company is on the backend is using a large language model,
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  whether it's ChatGPT or a different large language model to
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  then give you an
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  SPEAKER_01: output.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you think you have this company,
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  SPEAKER_01: you think that you have this great technology that you're paying for,
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  but really you could just go pay for the technology yourself
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  directly and use it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Instead,
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  you're paying a huge markup to a company that's claiming that
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  they have this
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  SPEAKER_01: amazing technology when it's just a wrapper.
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  SPEAKER_01: It looks like a different company,
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  but it's really just a large language model that anybody would
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  have access to.
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  So to build the program that you have now,
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  what type of developers did you have?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, what was their experience?
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  SPEAKER_00: How many did you have?
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  SPEAKER_00: How'd you find them?
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious about that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  so one of the biggest things when you're dealing with medical
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  records and bills,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is really important to keep in mind,
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  SPEAKER_01: is number one,
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  you cannot just put those items through large language models
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  because those models
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  SPEAKER_01: are not HIPAA compliant.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're not closed systems.
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  SPEAKER_01: They are not SOC 2.
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  SPEAKER_01: They also train off the data that you put in.
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  SPEAKER_01: You can't put clients' data in there,
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  SPEAKER_01: their medical records in there,
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  SPEAKER_01: and have it train off that.
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  So that's really one really important thing to be aware of just
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  in general for law firms.
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  SPEAKER_01: The other thing to be aware of is,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: you need a really good experienced team to make sure the data is secure.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we knew that when we started LawPro.ai.
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  So one of the first hires that we made was an engineer that
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  worked for Amazon Web
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  SPEAKER_01: Services for over a decade.
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  And his job with AWS was to take all the data from the
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  Department of Defense that
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  SPEAKER_01: they were putting in through the AWS system and make sure it was secure.
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  And we thought that was a perfect fit for what we were trying
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  to do in dealing with
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  SPEAKER_01: law firm clients' medical records.
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  And so the first thing he built out was to make sure that the
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  data we had was
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  secure and just as secure as the data that he was dealing with
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  on an everyday basis
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  SPEAKER_01: when working for AWS.
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  The next thing we really wanted to look into was not only how
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  do we keep it secure,
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  SPEAKER_01: but how do we also make sure that we're getting the right outputs,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  And that's where we really brought in the right engineering
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  team and data science
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  SPEAKER_01: team to put everything together.
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  And part of our data science and engineering team have created
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  that hallucination
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  SPEAKER_01: prevention technology that I mentioned.
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  SPEAKER_01: So those were
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  SPEAKER_01: some of the really big items for us starting off.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: things like best practices,
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  SPEAKER_01: dual authentication to be able to access the data.
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  We've hired third-party companies to check to make sure we're
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  doing everything best
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  SPEAKER_01: possible standards to keep data secure and safe,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is part of the SOC 2 that we have as well.
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  So those are all things that we've looked at to help make sure
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  that the outputs
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  SPEAKER_01: that law firms are getting are accurate and that the data is secure.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's hot.
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  Well,
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  I don't,
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  I don't want to pry too much into like how your program was
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  developed.
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  SPEAKER_00: So let me ask you this.
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  Cause I build a lot of automations using AI and my general
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  impression is people
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  either overestimate how complicated it is or underestimate how
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  complicated it is.
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  And there are a lot of people out there now who are automation
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  engineers who use AI
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  SPEAKER_00: as part of like automations.
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  SPEAKER_00: And how would you talk to an attorney or explain to an attorney,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: look,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is not like something,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: your college friend could make in two months.
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  This is like,
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  how would you explain that to somebody who's kind of
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  questioning your program?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is very complicated.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like I said,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's a 10 to 12 step process on the back end before it gets the end user,
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  SPEAKER_01: where it's dealing with all the information asynchronously,
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  SPEAKER_01: number one.
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  Number two,
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  one of the other things that we've had to overcome is token
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  limits,
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  right?
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  SPEAKER_01: So if you go to put a lot of information to a large language model,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're limited with how much you can put in at one time.
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  And we have law firms that are putting in 10,
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  20,
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  30,
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  50,000 pages at one time.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's no token limits with our system.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have law firms putting in 1,000 files at one time.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's no limit in terms of how many files at one time.
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  And the other thing that we've built out is you can put as big
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  a file as you want,
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  and it won't affect your coworkers or other law firm clients
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  that we have.
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  SPEAKER_01: Then the other thing that you got to really think about,
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  SPEAKER_01: which makes this really complicated,
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  SPEAKER_01: is every medical record has lots of different dates on it,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: So you could have the date of service,
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  SPEAKER_01: the date of accident,
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  SPEAKER_01: the client's date of birth,
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  SPEAKER_01: the date the document was printed on.
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  So pulling all the correct dates all the time on all these
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  records that often are
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  SPEAKER_01: not in any chronological order makes it very tricky.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then one of the toughest parts,
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  SPEAKER_01: which we have spent a lot of time on,
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  it's much different than what you would ever get from a large
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  language model,
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  SPEAKER_01: is being able to show our work.
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  SPEAKER_01: So what I mean by that is if you create a document or a letter,
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  being able to have citations that cite directly to the medical
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  records of where the
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  SPEAKER_01: information came from.
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  SPEAKER_01: So a click of a button, you could pull up that record.
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  SPEAKER_01: Or being able to look at a medical chronology.
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  SPEAKER_01: Say, hey, where'd they get this data from?
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  SPEAKER_01: What document?
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  And be able to click directly on there and have the exact
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  document show up.
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  So these are a couple of different pain points that you
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  typically will see dealing
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  SPEAKER_01: with large language models that are just not simple things to figure out.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're difficult.
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  SPEAKER_01: All these medical records are structured differently.
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  SPEAKER_01: They all come in different format.
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  SPEAKER_01: Some of them have handwritten notes still.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's not as simple as a large language model to be able to know,
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  SPEAKER_01: all right,
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  SPEAKER_01: on every record,
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  SPEAKER_01: here's where the date of service is going to be.
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  SPEAKER_01: It changes all the time, every time.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's one area that has advanced so much with AI,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is document review,
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  SPEAKER_00: organization,
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  SPEAKER_00: summaries.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's one thing like I try to talk about when I talk about AI,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's only as good as the information it has and what it has to reference.
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  SPEAKER_00: And,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: sometimes how it's been trained,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I'm a marketer,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  most of the time we're not dealing with ultra specialized LLM
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  tools the way,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: your program obviously is.
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  i mean i don't know if you have a story like just out of your
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  hat but i'm curious
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  because i mentioned the conversation we had at the event
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  earlier this year but do
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  you have a client who you've started working with or you've
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  implemented your tool
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  with them and it was just like transformed what they did like
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  do you like how is
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  how how far has your tool been able to bring somebody in terms
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  of technology and
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  SPEAKER_00: into the future i guess
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  So first of all,
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  two stories come to mind related to what we're talking about.
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  SPEAKER_01: One is,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  we had a law firm in terms of the data is only the outputs only
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  as good as the
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  SPEAKER_01: information that goes into it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so we had a law firm that called us.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's a customer of ours.
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  And they were upset because the date law pro pulled out that
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  there was a surgery
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  SPEAKER_01: event and they said this client didn't get a surgery.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I explained to him, we didn't just make that up.
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  SPEAKER_01: It came from somewhere.
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  So we went through all the records and went through all the
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  bills with them.
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  And it turns out one of the doctors incorrectly put a billing
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  code on that was a
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  SPEAKER_01: surgical billing code.
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  And so LawPro had pulled out that surgical billing code
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  thinking that it was
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  accurate because that's the data that was uploaded and pulled
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  out saying that there
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  SPEAKER_01: was a surgery here.
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  And I was able to show that lawyer that,
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  no,
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  we did everything we were supposed to.
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  SPEAKER_01: Law Pro did what it was supposed to.
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  There's a surgical code on here,
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  and it pulled out a surgery based on that.
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  Then they were able to see,
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  like,
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  that's not Law Pro's issue,
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  that's a data issue.
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  And they were able to go talk to that doctor and say,
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  why is this code on here?
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  SPEAKER_01: So I think it is really important to keep in mind,
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  the output's only going to be as good as the information that
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  goes into it.
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  SPEAKER_01: In terms of helping law firms grow and succeed,
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  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  I'm the first test case where we've grown about 3x in the last
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  couple of years.
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  But we've heard from a number of our customers that it's helped
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  them in a lot of
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  SPEAKER_01: different ways,
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  SPEAKER_01: depending on what their pain point is.
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  If it's helping them with their pre-lit and get their cases
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  done faster and pre-lit.
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  SPEAKER_01: If it's helping them in the middle of litigation.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 12:56
  I had one law firm call me a couple of weeks ago that said they
• 12:59
  used our tool in
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: the middle of litigation to help with a cross-examination of an expert.
• 13:03
  And that our tool completely transformed the cross-examination
• 13:07
  and it completely
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: transformed the case.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And they were able to get a really nice seven-figure verdict from it.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And they were super excited about it.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the law firm that for a while was like, I'm not sure.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure we need AI.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if we're going to use it.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: And when they saw that, they just said, this is a game changer.
• 13:21
  And then we have law firms that we've met with and we work with
• 13:24
  that are very heavy
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: in litigation.
• 13:26
  I want to make sure that we're going to be able to help them
• 13:28
  with litigation,
• 13:28
  whether it's answering discovery or helping with
• 13:30
  cross-examination or putting on
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: your own experts for deposition.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we were able to show them how we could do all those things for their
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: litigation-heavy practice.
• 13:38
  So there's a lot of different ways you can use the tool
• 13:40
  throughout the process.
• 13:41
  And we have found that a lot of our firms have found a lot of
• 13:44
  success in getting
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: rid of their pain points through using LawPro.
• 13:47
  So you mentioned like you first use this at your firm and it
• 13:50
  saved a bunch of time
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: and I can easily see how it saves a bunch of time.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what did you guys do with the time it gave back?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how did you like reorient your workflow?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like what happened once you implemented it?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a question I get a lot.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And paralegals often get nervous that,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: oh my gosh,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: if LawPro comes into our law firm,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: am I going to lose my job?
• 14:12
  And I can tell you,
• 14:13
  we have not let go of a single person as a result of LawPro.
• 14:16
  We actually have hired a lot more people because our firm has
• 14:18
  grown so much more now.
• 14:20
  And what we now do with all that extra time that our pre-lit
• 14:23
  paralegals and
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: paralegals have is we have them focus more on the clients.
• 14:27
  And there's more conversations with the clients and checking
• 14:29
  with the clients and
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: seeing how they're doing,
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: if they need help with anything,
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:33
  helping them with a car rental or getting the car fixed or
• 14:36
  whatever it is.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: How's their medical treatment going?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: How are they feeling?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Have they followed up for the referral appointments?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Have they gotten the medication that they were prescribed?
• 14:44
  And there's just a lot more communication directly with the
• 14:46
  clients and it makes it
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: for a happier client.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: The clients are happier that way.
• 14:50
  And it actually helps the firm quite a bit because we actually
• 14:53
  are getting more
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: referrals from prior clients than ever before.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: So the customer acquisition costs are going through the roof nowadays,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: and we're able to get clients and more of them than ever before for free.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we have hundreds of cases.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: I can do zero marketing now for now on,
• 15:07
  and we would have hundreds of cases coming through the door
• 15:10
  just because of how
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: we've changed the entire client process and how we view the whole client
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: experience.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I've heard that a lot about AI, like we've not lost a person.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: We've actually like hired quite a few people.
• 15:21
  And when you look at famous examples of AI and how it's
• 15:26
  affecting like the
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: workforce,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: you hear about like the tech layoffs,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: but that's mostly tech companies.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And there was quite a bit of like hiring bloat in the 2000s.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:37
  a lot of those companies are letting those extra employees go
• 15:40
  that they didn't
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: need,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: but they still hired.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: and AI as this cover, right?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: To make it look, you know, not unappealing to their stockholders.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: So when you talk to small businesses and say like,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: AI helped us grow,
• 15:52
  I don't think they always like connect the dots and it's
• 15:56
  because your systems are
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: more efficient and you're hesitant to hire
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you're having to train a bunch of people on how to find files,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: what to look for in the files,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: where to get them,
• 16:09
  there's a lot of institutional knowledge that comes with file
• 16:13
  storage and data
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: storage.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And whenever you have AI that makes it easy,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: like my favorite AI tool is my Notetaker,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: which is attending here.
• 16:22
  And I can go to my Notetaker and ask it a question about any
• 16:27
  meeting I've ever been
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: in,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: essentially.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, get back an answer.
• 16:31
  And,
• 16:32
  you know,
• 16:33
  it's such advanced search for like documents or any kind of
• 16:37
  files.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: there are so many,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: like I'd start listing them,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: but I always forget to mention a few.
• 16:41
  And I think people just underestimate what they can do with
• 16:45
  that efficiency.
• 16:46
  And you can hire more people,
• 16:47
  you can grow,
• 16:48
  you know,
• 16:48
  you can do other things.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to pivot a little bit.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: if this kind of goes nowhere,
• 16:53
  then we can get back to talking about like a little more about
• 16:57
  your tool and what
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: it can do.
• 16:58
  But I'm curious,
• 16:59
  because you have a law firm and you also have the SaaS company.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what are you guys doing to market like either one or both of them?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure which one you want to talk about.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just kind of go down the route you're going down for a second,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: for a minute,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: which is not only are we helping law firms be more efficient,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: we're shortening time on desk and increasing case values.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes these cases have one sentence,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: one line,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: one word that can completely change a case value.
• 17:26
  So if you're finishing cases faster and you're finishing them
• 17:29
  for a higher value,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: that's going to give a law firm more money to spend on marketing,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: which will then in turn help them grow.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when you put those two numbers together,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: more cases done at a higher case value,
• 17:39
  there's a lot more money that you can spend on your budget to
• 17:41
  grow your firm.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you my law firm's a number one example of that.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: We were not doing a lot of marketing throughout our history.
• 17:48
  The only thing we were spending money on was basically search
• 17:50
  engine optimization.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: That was the only money we were spending on marketing for years.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: But once we were able to finish cases faster at a higher case value,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: we then had more marketing dollars to spend.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we started spending more marketing dollars on things like Google Ads,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: LSA,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: YouTube,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Meta,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: All those different things, all those different channels.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: So our budget went from less than six figures to close to seven figures.
• 18:14
  And now we're getting all those clients coming in and we're
• 18:17
  being very careful and
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: methodical to make sure we have the right client experience.
• 18:22
  And those are just more clients that are going out and getting
• 18:24
  our name around the community.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that way we have more referrals coming from them.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so it all works together.
• 18:29
  And the reason we can do all that is because the extra cash
• 18:31
  flow we have from
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: being,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: finishing cases faster,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: higher case values.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: So like who's running your marketing?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have like a marketing?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: What does your marketing team look like?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I guess maybe the better question here.
• 18:42
  So for my law firm,
• 18:43
  our marketing group is I have a different company that does my
• 18:46
  SEO stuff.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: I have a different company that does my Google ads and LSA.
• 18:49
  I have a different company that does my meta,
• 18:50
  a different company that does my YouTube.
• 18:52
  And I have all different companies doing each one for some
• 18:55
  checks and balances.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of how I look at it.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we'll have a group meeting about something.
• 19:00
  Like if I want to make sure YouTube's being incorporated in all
• 19:02
  the right places,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'll get us all on the call together.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or if something's going on with my Google ads,
• 19:08
  I think they could be using other stuff from my website that my
• 19:10
  SEO company is
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: dealing with.
• 19:12
  I get them together and I try to get everyone speaking to each
• 19:14
  other as much as
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: possible to make sure,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: me as the client is getting taken care of the best way possible.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you have like several vendors who are all doing pieces of it.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty cool.
• 19:26
  And is it the same way for lawpro.ai or do you guys have a
• 19:30
  different way of
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: marketing the SaaS tool?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so when it comes to LawPro, we have a head of marketing.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: So fortunately for me, that's not my job with LawPro.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm not in the weeds in it.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 19:41
  I know that there are different ways that we're marketing and
• 19:44
  getting clients from
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: online,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: from different events we attend and so on.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: We met at an event.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: How many are you attending this year, just out of curiosity?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Probably some around 20 events.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I did three in January.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: I did one or two in February.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm speaking at an event next week.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm doing three or four in March.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it'll keep going like that throughout most of the year.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so do you do like much of the legal work at the law firm?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Are you very like high level there?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I do keep some cases.
• 20:15
  My caseload has gone down dramatically since I now pretty much
• 20:18
  work for LawPro full time.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I keep some cases because I enjoy being a lawyer.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoy helping people.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really why I got into this space.
• 20:25
  But my caseload has gone from several hundred to,
• 20:28
  you know,
• 20:28
  to very small nowadays.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of fascinated how like you're in these two businesses,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: you're attending 20 events.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine your life's like super busy.
• 20:40
  Was it always super busy or has like starting the AI company
• 20:46
  just added to that?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: What has that change been like for you personally?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was a lot less busy a couple of years ago,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: for sure,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: before the AI company and before our firm started growing.
• 20:55
  You know,
• 20:56
  our firm had been at the same numbers for five years,
• 20:58
  six years,
• 20:59
  something like that.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I could go in and,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:02
  work less than 40 hours a week and firm would just be trudging
• 21:06
  along and everything
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: was good.
• 21:07
  But then we sprinkled on some AI with the right policies and
• 21:10
  procedures,
• 21:11
  which is important.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the firm started to really take off.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: And when you start taking off fast, things happen.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Things can break sometimes.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Things have to be relooked at.
• 21:19
  So all that's happening at the same time as we're building an
• 21:22
  AI SaaS company.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, it's very crazy right now.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm constantly traveling.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm constantly in depositions because any days I'm in town,
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: my law firm wants me to do a couple of depositions here or there.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's trying to manage time the best way possible.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: I have a great team at both companies,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Zerkin and Schmerling Law and LawPro that makes it all possible.
• 21:40
  Do you have like a COO at both companies or somebody who kind
• 21:45
  of operates as a
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: stand-in when you're not around or somebody in that capacity?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: So a paralegal in my office,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: who was my former head paralegal,
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: and she was reading medical records all day long,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: but was way too talented to be spending her time doing that.
• 21:57
  She no longer reads medical records anymore,
• 21:59
  and she's now director of operations of the firm.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so she takes care of a lot of the day-to-day stuff that I used to do,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: which has freed up a lot of my time.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then for LawPro,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: we're a startup,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: so we don't have a COO,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: but we have a number of us that take on different responsibilities.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: So are you innovating on your tool on LawPro AI?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Are you adding features to it?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like over the next few years, few months?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 22:21
  it's hard to say a few years because this time is just moving
• 22:24
  so fast with AI that
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: few years,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know exactly where we're going to be.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, we keep adding more tools to LawPro every quarter.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: So every quarter,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: typically we come out with another tool or an update,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: and we send an email to all of our customers letting them know,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: you can now do this with LawPro.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you want additional training, happy to do a training with your office.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: All the trainings with LawPro are included for our price.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so law firms can take us up on as many trainings as they want.
• 22:49
  And what we try to do is understand in the market what's needed
• 22:52
  based on medical
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: records and bills coming in.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we also take polls of our customers and talk to our customers.
• 22:59
  And we respond to our customers and what they need and try to
• 23:02
  update our technology
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: based on that as well.
• 23:04
  We also recently did a poll with Morgan & Morgan of over 300
• 23:07
  law firms throughout
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: the country,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: personal injury law firms,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: to understand what was important to them.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so we try to take all this feedback and then we meet,
• 23:14
  we have an amazing head of product and we talk every couple of
• 23:17
  weeks to talk about,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: all right,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: here's where we're moving forward with a couple of items right now.
• 23:21
  Here's items we have coming down the pipeline and constantly
• 23:24
  putting out our new technology.
• 23:25
  The thing that's really nice for current customers is that they
• 23:29
  never get charged
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: anything extra when we put out new technology.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: So as we make the platform more and more valuable to our customers,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: our pricing can go up over time and has.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: But for our customers that are currently with us,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: the pricing remains the original pricing point,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: basically.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Another question I wanted to ask, and I don't want to forget it.
• 23:49
  You've gone from a law firm owner to somebody who has a product
• 23:55
  that you sell to
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: other law firm owners.
• 23:58
  What in that transition process have you learned about other
• 24:03
  law firm owners,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: other law firms that you want to share?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 24:07
  what's really interesting is a lot of law firms operate
• 24:09
  differently and look at
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: things differently.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just as simple as a demand letter.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: My law firm, for example, we don't care much about a demand letter.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Either the insurance company is going to pay me what's fair for the case.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Or they're not.
• 24:19
  And if they don't,
• 24:20
  we're just going to file a lawsuit and we're going to go
• 24:22
  through litigation.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And there's firms that have the completely different approach,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: that the demand letter is so important.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: They spend hours or days on it.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the end-all, be-all.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And this is going to get them the top value.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's been really interesting.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's just one example.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: But law firms work very differently.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: They don't all work the same.
• 24:39
  It's been really interesting to see some law firms that I meet
• 24:42
  are very much struggling.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Some law firms are excelling.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of different reasons why.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting to see.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was one of these law firm owners,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: some law firm owners have no interest in talking to vendors.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Some love talking to vendors.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: When I was solely a law firm owner, I didn't want to talk to any vendors.
• 24:59
  Now I realize the vendors are there to try to help law firm
• 25:02
  owners and have a ton
• 25:03
  of knowledge because vendors go to all these different
• 25:05
  conferences and they know
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: the newest and best tools and what's happening.
• 25:08
  And they actually have an inside scoop and the lawyers are more
• 25:11
  focused on their
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: cases,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: which they should be.
• 25:14
  And so now I realize how important vendors can be to help law
• 25:16
  firms grow and grow the right way.
• 25:18
  So a couple of different things that I've learned since moving
• 25:21
  to the side of things.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's been my experience as well.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And when I talk to people about my program and what I do,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: I tell them like, it's very custom.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on the law firm.
• 25:31
  And in my own way,
• 25:32
  I'm trying to tell them like each law firm is really different.
• 25:35
  And some of the stuff that we're doing for one client may not
• 25:39
  work for you.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily telling them that to lower expectations,
• 25:43
  but if you're a business owner and you've never seen the inside
• 25:46
  of another business
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: in the same industry,
• 25:49
  you will tend to assume like a lot of things are the same and
• 25:52
  everyone does it this
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: way.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And on the flip side,
• 25:55
  it's surprising to find out like the differences between the
• 25:58
  firms and that it's
• 26:00
  kind of interesting to see like largely what is the same and
• 26:02
  what often gets
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: repeated.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: particularly with vendors,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was at one point a marketing director for a law firm.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's where I got my start and initially like
• 26:14
  Talking to vendors,
• 26:15
  like I felt like the only marketing director in the US.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds silly,
• 26:21
  but you think like you're unique and then you see it from the
• 26:25
  vendor's perspective
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: and you know,
• 26:27
  like an SEO vendor and you realize your account manager talks
• 26:30
  to probably 20 to 30
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: people.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: different marketing directors at firms just like yours every week.
• 26:38
  And it's something they have a ton of experience in talking to
• 26:42
  marketing directors
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: and answering those questions.
• 26:45
  And like you said,
• 26:46
  they get to see inside all of these businesses and what's
• 26:49
  working.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: what this one client is doing that this other client is not doing.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 26:56
  it's definitely like a different like perspective shift on how
• 26:59
  you view other
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: people's businesses and your own.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: if you get the,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not suggesting everyone open up their own on a second company,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: if you do get the experience,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: it is kind of interesting what you learn.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, usually I start to wrap up these podcasts.
• 27:17
  My first question,
• 27:17
  is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't
• 27:19
  go over?
• 27:21
  No,
• 27:21
  I think we've covered a lot of good stuff,
• 27:23
  a lot of good information.
• 27:24
  Yeah.
• 27:25
  Well,
• 27:25
  what are your plans like next six months that you're willing to
• 27:29
  share?
• 27:30
  What are the big things coming up for you and your companies
• 27:33
  over the summer and the fall?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: so without going into too much detail,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: basically being able to take medical records and bills,
• 27:40
  and we already are providing so much data and information to
• 27:44
  law firms about that
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: and make it very easy to consume with very little training.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: To get up and running in our platform takes 24 hours.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's very simple to use.
• 27:52
  We're looking to make it even easier and simpler to really show
• 27:55
  a law firm their
• 27:57
  case from gain to end without having to even click or prompt or
• 28:01
  do anything.
• 28:02
  And so that's something that we're really excited about that
• 28:04
  we'll be rolling out shortly.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to give away too many details about it,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: but super excited about what we have coming out.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for being on the show and talking with me.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: I always, I love talking about AI, honestly.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you want people to look you up and learn more about you?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:21
  Best way to get in touch with me is my email,
• 28:23
  josh at lawpro.ai,
• 28:24
  L-A-W-P-R-O.ai.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 28:28
  thanks again so much for being on the show and thanks for the
• 28:31
  listeners for tuning
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: in and we will catch you next time.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds great.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate it.