Latest / Anele and the Club on 947 / Would you want to go back to a company if they’ve fired you or taken you to CCMA?

Transcript

Would you want to go back to a company if they’ve fired you or taken you to CCMA? · Anele and the Club on 947

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Wake up with a bang. Hey, wake up!
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: Anele and the club. On 947. Zenobia Abrahams.
• 0:09
  Speaker 3: Yo.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Does that name mean anything to anyone in this room? Mm-mm.
• 0:14
  Speaker 4: Zenobia Abrahams. She's an accountant at Nefsas. Am I saying
• 0:19
  Speaker 4: that right?
• 0:21
  Speaker 5: Well, they're different takes, but that's one of them you're right, yes.
• 0:23
  Speaker 5: Give me another take. Some say Enes Fas, some say
• 0:26
  Speaker 5: Nes Fas.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Nes Fas.
• 0:28
  Speaker 5: The National Student Financial Aid Scheme, basically.
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: Okay, so she was an accountant at Nesfas, right? And
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: she got dismissed for forwarding work emails to her personal
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: email address. trying to keep a record, I suppose, of something. Yes,
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: because you know how everybody gives you advice when you
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: get to a new company. Email yourself everything, keep everything
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: on the record because you never know what could happen.
• 0:53
  Speaker 4: You'll end up at the CCMA and you should have proof.
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: That's what this lady did, Zenobia Abrahams, Nesfas budget accountant,
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: who was dismissed after forwarding nine confidential work emails.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: To her personal Gmail account.
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: A CCMA commissioner later found her dismissal unfairly And they've
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: ordered Nesfas to reinstate her.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: With more than a million rand in back pay.
• 1:16
  Speaker 6: Because obviously she's been suspended until the case has been
• 1:19
  Speaker 6: sorted out, right?
• 1:20
  Speaker 4: So basically, you get fired for forwarding yourself confidential emails,
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: nine of them.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: You go fight it out at the CCMA.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: CCMA.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: You know, rules in your favor, then.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: The company that you got fired from owes you a
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: million rand and they have to reinstate you. Now, one
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: of these things works out for me. The other one,
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I have questions around it. I've just looked
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: her up. Actually, there's been another twist. Oh, she's lost
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: in the labor court. So the labor court has now
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: said the CCMA commissioner who ruled against her employer. misdirected
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: himself when he said the dismissal was substantively unfair after
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: she forwarded those work emails to her personal Gmail account.
• 2:03
  Speaker 6: I would imagine so, because how can you take a
• 2:06
  Speaker 6: work email if it's confidential to your Gmail?
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: No, I think the reason she won at the CCMA
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: was because they said there's no proof that she forwarded
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: the Gmail emails onwards to somebody else.
• 2:19
  Speaker 7: OK.
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: Right. So she was just forwarding to herself. But still,
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: you know, if you go deeper into the loopholes of
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: the policy, that's still not right.
• 2:26
  Speaker 6: But I mean, to your point, you were saying two
• 2:28
  Speaker 6: of these things. One makes sense to you. I presume
• 2:31
  Speaker 6: that's the million rand.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. I'll take the million rand. That makes sense.
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: What doesn't make sense is wanting to be reinstated into.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: A job that you got fired from.
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: I just think, would it not be you going back
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: into the lion's den, into a hostile environment?
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: You're fighting the people who fired you to hire you back.
• 2:52
  Speaker 5: People who go back after winning against their employer, either
• 2:57
  Speaker 5: the labor court or you win at the CCMA, it's
• 3:00
  Speaker 5: always awkward because remember... The people you now have to
• 3:03
  Speaker 5: go back and work with were the opposition, essentially, in
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: a formal process.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: You guys were at war. In the CCMA, guys, it
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: gets dirty and it gets dark.
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: And now I win against you as my boss, as
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: my employer, and I want to come and work there.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Have you ever done that?
• 3:22
  Speaker 8: 011-8838-947.
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: I need to jump into your head. I need to
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: jump into your psyche. I need to understand why is
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: that the decision you would take?
• 3:30
  Speaker 6: Well, I mean, look, that's what the CCMA is there for, right?
• 3:33
  Speaker 6: It's the arbitration. And the point is that if you
• 3:37
  Speaker 6: get dismissed and you feel it's unfair, they will say, well,
• 3:41
  Speaker 6: the point is that we could reinstate you because if
• 3:44
  Speaker 6: you were unfairly dismissed, you can have your job back.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: That's one of the ways that it.
• 3:48
  Speaker 5: Works because financial compensation is not the only outcome that
• 3:52
  Speaker 5: you're guaranteed in those processes.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: So I could imagine that the only I mean I
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: would never do it but I could imagine that the
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: only reason you would go back to that former workplace
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: is almost like I told you so or is it
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: not a case of if To have it taken off
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: your CV or some sort of record that you were
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: fired from the previous place so that it doesn't look
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: bad for the next place that employs you. You can go, oh, yeah, no,
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: but I won. I mean, I'd be reluctant to hire somebody.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: But isn't that the case to try and almost have
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: it like.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Struck off.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that's the thing.
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: Cindy, these are the questions that I have and I
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: sincerely hope that somebody listening can answer them. You, who
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: knows everything about labour, please call us. 011-8838-947 and also,
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: if you've been unfairly dismissed and you went to the
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: CCMA and you fought it, or maybe even the labour court,
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: And you fought it and then you were reinstated.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: How was it when you went back?
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: Did you go back? I've never met someone that's done this.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: Because human nature says that your company is going to
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: frustrate you until you leave on your own accord.
• 4:51
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: And I don't want that.
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: I don't like not feeling welcome in a place now.
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: I'd come back for like a week for my victory
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: lap and resign on the Friday.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: There's always one I told you, sir.
• 5:00
  Speaker 5: Because I just want to say, yeah, you thought. Tell
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: her what you must, Baba.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Would you stick out your tongue?
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: I'm actually going into my boss's office and putting my
• 5:11
  Speaker 5: feet up on the table and say, love what you've
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: done with the place in my absence.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: I can imagine Timbukile then being reprimanded and him going,
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: what are you going to do?
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: Fire me.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: You tried that.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: It didn't work.
• 5:24
  Speaker 7: Look at me.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: The return, Baba.
• 5:29
  Speaker 9: 084-000-947.
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: Send us a voice note. Have you ever been unfairly dismissed?
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: You took it up to the CCMA. You were reinstated.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: And then you went back.
• 5:41
  Speaker 6: Or you had a colleague in the office that this
• 5:45
  Speaker 6: happened to.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: And then they came back. And all of you were like, oh.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: It's all in the name, guys.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Commission for what?
• 5:53
  Speaker 5: Conciliation, mediation and arbitration.
• 5:56
  Speaker 8: That sucks.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Y'all are brave. Talk to us.
• 5:59
  Speaker 9: You have to fight to go back to work so
• 6:03
  Speaker 9: you can resign. Remember, when you fight, you don't get
• 6:07
  Speaker 9: compensated and all those packages.
• 6:09
  Speaker 5: Also on the CCMA thing, please discuss how to enforce
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: it because it becomes a bit difficult now.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: If somebody doesn't want to pay.
• 6:21
  Speaker 10: Going back clears your name because when you are phoning
• 6:27
  Speaker 10: for references, I get into a system, the system says
• 6:31
  Speaker 10: this person was dismissed for misconduct, whatever the reason that
• 6:35
  Speaker 10: would have been put there. If you do go back,
• 6:38
  Speaker 10: we reinstate you. That clears everything that was put on
• 6:43
  Speaker 10: your name.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: And then you resign.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: Uh-huh.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Ryan, you in the vault. Good morning.
• 6:49
  Speaker 8: Good morning.
• 6:49
  Speaker 7: How are you?
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: How are you, Ryan?
• 6:52
  Speaker 8: I'm very well. Thank you for asking yourself.
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: We are fantastic. You say you were retrenched in 2023?
• 6:57
  Speaker 5: Correct.
• 6:58
  Speaker 8: Yes. Okay.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: And did you take it to the CCMA?
• 7:03
  Speaker 8: I did. I was willing to let it go and
• 7:06
  Speaker 8: stand as is. And then I found out the day
• 7:08
  Speaker 8: after my retrenchment, somebody else was hiding my position.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's dicey. So then were you reinstated?
• 7:17
  Speaker 8: No, there was no offer for reinstatement on the table.
• 7:20
  Speaker 8: I wouldn't have accepted it anyway. It would have been
• 7:21
  Speaker 8: a very uncomfortable situation to go back to.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 7:26
  Speaker 8: Instead, I am now three years in the waiting for
• 7:29
  Speaker 8: labour court.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, so you're still taking them down to Chinatown?
• 7:34
  Speaker 8: Correct, yes.
• 7:35
  Speaker 5: So what was the reason for your retrenchment if the
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: very next day someone was in your seat?
• 7:41
  Speaker 8: A rival sister company, bit of a confusion. They packed
• 7:45
  Speaker 8: up and left the country and they left all their
• 7:48
  Speaker 8: staff here. And obviously a younger, cheaper version of what
• 7:53
  Speaker 8: I was doing was available.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: And Ryan, I mean, did you, so you know, are
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: you still waiting? This is three years already.
• 8:01
  Speaker 8: Correct, yes.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: And are you, did you get another job then?
• 8:05
  Speaker 8: I've had small jobs in between here and there, but
• 8:07
  Speaker 8: nothing that really suits me. Instead, I've chosen to go private,
• 8:11
  Speaker 8: trying to maintain myself.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: And your severance package, what did that look like?
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: Was that substantial or are you also fighting that?
• 8:20
  Speaker 8: No, my severance package was actually pretty decent. What did
• 8:24
  Speaker 8: bother me though was I was just out of 10-year
• 8:26
  Speaker 8: service with a company and that's what I was treated as.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: To try to get you out because you're expensive.
• 8:36
  Speaker 8: Something like that, yeah.
• 8:37
  Speaker 5: So what do you want to happen now? What do
• 8:39
  Speaker 5: you want the labor court to do?
• 8:41
  Speaker 8: Well, I'm just waiting for my final court date. Everything's
• 8:44
  Speaker 8: gone through. A lot of back and forth fighting and
• 8:46
  Speaker 8: a lot of.
• 8:48
  Speaker 8: Ill wills have been harbored in this, but I just
• 8:51
  Speaker 8: want my final court date to see where I stand,
• 8:53
  Speaker 8: get what I need to, and move on with my life.
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: And to Tim Bigelow's question, yes, you want your court date,
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: but at the court, when the magistrate knocks on the
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: gavel and rules in a specific way, what do you want?
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: What is the desired outcome?
• 9:09
  Speaker 8: I would prefer to get my way, but that is
• 9:12
  Speaker 8: what it is, and I'll accept whatever is given.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but what is your way? How much do you want?
• 9:19
  Speaker 8: I don't know if I would feel comfortable saying that.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Give it a metric in months.
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: You want 50 months payment.
• 9:28
  Speaker 8: I'm looking at a little over two years.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: Okay. Two years.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: So, but definitely not reinstated because that wouldn't be fun.
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: I don't think that'd give you a good parking.
• 9:39
  Speaker 8: No, not just that. I think it would just be very,
• 9:42
  Speaker 8: very uncomfortable.
• 9:43
  Speaker 11: Yeah.
• 9:45
  Speaker 8: Okay. We can work around if I have to park
• 9:46
  Speaker 8: across the road, so be it.
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: But, And Ryan, if you're saying you're going to the
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: Labour Court, it means you started at the CCMA, eh?
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Or did you go straight to the Labour Court?
• 9:54
  Speaker 8: No, it was started at CCMA. They ruled that um
• 9:58
  Speaker 8: the claim in my case was a little over their
• 10:00
  Speaker 8: heads and they referred me to labor.
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: Oh yo ryan we are on team ryan i wonder
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: are you gonna tell us what the company is because
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: now now it's doritos and i like.
• 10:09
  Speaker 8: Doritos unfortunately not I don't believe in naming and shaming
• 10:15
  Speaker 8: and that could cause problems for.
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: Me now we have to support you because you're our
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: guy you're a nice guy You better not be coming
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: for things we like, like wimpy.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: No, now you can't go by here.
• 10:28
  Speaker 5: He'll spare parts for the car in the vault just
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: in case he used to work.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying?
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: Because we're supporting him now, but he's not telling us
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: who the other team is.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: And maybe I want to support the other team.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Maybe we're fans of the other team.
• 10:40
  Speaker 9: Yes.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Maybe he's taking Spur to court, guys. I'm not ever
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: going up against Spur. I'm on KFC side.
• 10:45
  Speaker 7: No, son.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: The onion rings. Sorry, Ryan.
• 10:49
  Speaker 7: Bye.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Nell, good morning.
• 10:54
  Speaker 12: Good morning, 947.
• 10:55
  Speaker 11: How are you?
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: We are good, Nell.
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: How are you?
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: I'm good, thank you.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, you are bringing the HR side of things here.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: I like this. Talk to us. What do you want
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: to say?
• 11:05
  Speaker 12: Yeah, so you see a lot of cases at the
• 11:08
  Speaker 12: CCMA where employees ask for retrospective reinstatement, which basically means
• 11:13
  Speaker 12: that I want reinstatement and all the money I would
• 11:16
  Speaker 12: have been paid while I was sitting at home, right?
• 11:20
  Speaker 12: And yes, companies don't want to reinstate people, but I
• 11:25
  Speaker 12: always advise people to take the retrospective reinstatement because the
• 11:31
  Speaker 12: labor market is really tough in South Africa. And there's
• 11:34
  Speaker 12: no guarantee that if you just take the money, you're
• 11:37
  Speaker 12: still going to get another job.
• 11:39
  Speaker 7: So it's better.
• 11:40
  Speaker 12: To take the money, take the reinstatement, and look for
• 11:44
  Speaker 12: another job. And at least you know that you've got
• 11:47
  Speaker 12: a backup. You know, and money finishes as well because
• 11:52
  Speaker 12: you'll get that million rand and then all of a
• 11:55
  Speaker 12: sudden you've got all of these bills that you need
• 11:58
  Speaker 12: to pay and yeah, the money finishes and now you're
• 12:01
  Speaker 12: out of a job.
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: So, there's a lot of lingo that you're using here. So,
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: I'm going to take it and.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: You are saying that.
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: If I go to the CCMA and I was unfairly
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: dismissed and the CCMA rules in favor of me, I
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: must take the reinstatement and then in that moment be.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Looking for another job.
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: So I must put up with the uncomfortable environment whilst
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: I'm looking for another job.
• 12:31
  Speaker 11: I say yes.
• 12:33
  Speaker 12: So if they grant you reinstatement or the CCMA goes
• 12:37
  Speaker 12: in your favor, Take it, you know, swallow the bullet
• 12:40
  Speaker 12: while you know that you're looking for a job. At
• 12:42
  Speaker 12: least you're getting double the income if you ask for,
• 12:45
  Speaker 12: you know, compensation as well.
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: So they back pay you the million rand. So now
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: I'm sitting in an office with people I just took
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: a million rand from.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Thumbs up. And then I'm there on.
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: LinkedIn looking for other jobs with their data and their Wi-Fi.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Love it. Love it. That's what you think?
• 13:08
  Speaker 12: Yes, that's what I'm saying.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 13:11
  Speaker 12: Go and look for another one.
• 13:13
  Speaker 6: I just want to say, Nayo, because she's in HR.
• 13:17
  Speaker 6: Her company hates her, huh?
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: Absolutely right now.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Because she's on the employee's side.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Absolutely right now.
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: Something that is very rare for HR to be on
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: the employee's side. 011-8838-947, our question this morning. And also,
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: this is a great time if you are in the
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: car with your kids for you to explain to them
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: what is the CCMA. Because I don't think many kids
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: would just know off the top of their minds what
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: the CCMA is.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: So I think it's a great learning moment. If you're
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: a child, you're learning.
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: What the CCMA is. And if you're an adult and
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: you are in the job market, you are also finding
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: out around, you know, the warpath around taking your company
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: to the CCMA and then wanting to be reinstated.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: The question here is, if you were unfairly dismissed.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Would you go back to that job?
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: If you were then reinstated by the CCMA.
• 14:00
  Speaker 7: Wow.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Would you?
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: I'm going back to that job. And now I'm going
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: to study.
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: Commenting on all the meetings we have to say yeah
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: who do you think.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: You are this is not your mother's house.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: I know a girl that took my previous employer to
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: ccma three times she won three times and still works
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: for the company it's been 11 years now.
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: I'm laughing because i am actually going there today so.
• 14:28
  Speaker 11: I am quite interested to hear what people are going
• 14:31
  Speaker 11: to say.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: So the lady I work with, she did come back.
• 14:35
  Speaker 11: She came back, but to.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: A different branch, like a different province.
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: She was based in another province.
• 14:41
  Speaker 10: When she was reinstated, she asked to be moved to
• 14:45
  Speaker 10: another province.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, that I can handle.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Move office.
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: Because now you're in a different, you know, atmosphere. Tuli,
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: you're in Parkhurst.
• 14:55
  Speaker 11: Hi, Anil in the cab.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Hi, Tuli, how are you?
• 14:58
  Speaker 11: Very well, thank you. First time on the radio.
• 15:00
  Speaker 6: First time on the radio!
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Yay!
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: You've been to the CCMA, but you haven't been on
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: the radio. Your priorities, girl. Okay, talk to us.
• 15:12
  Speaker 11: So, I work as an ME. So, my previous employer
• 15:16
  Speaker 11: fired me on the spot because I arrived late.
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: Late.
• 15:21
  Speaker 11: Not as in late. I started at nine o'clock, but
• 15:23
  Speaker 11: she asked me to come in early because her son
• 15:26
  Speaker 11: was sick. But I was commuting at that time. Traffic
• 15:30
  Speaker 11: was a nightmare. And I got there late, according to her.
• 15:35
  Speaker 11: And I was negligent. I left her son unattended.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: No, she left her son unattended. Okay, yeah.
• 15:42
  Speaker 11: Yes, that was my argument. You left your son. I'm
• 15:45
  Speaker 11: coming from my house. You left your son unattended. She
• 15:48
  Speaker 11: embarrassed me in front of everyone. The security guard throwing
• 15:52
  Speaker 11: my uniforms all over. Did I not take a taxi
• 15:55
  Speaker 11: to CCMA? There in the.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, and then you were reinstated.
• 16:00
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: Now, Tuli, that's even more hostile because that's that woman's house.
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: Did you hear that voice note saying, I will go back.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: This is not your mother's house. No, no. In this case,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: it actually is her mother's house. So how was it? Oh, no.
• 16:14
  Speaker 11: It turns out she was relocating. So she wanted to
• 16:17
  Speaker 11: get rid of me. I worked for her for eight years.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Okay. Oh, what a terrible person then.
• 16:23
  Speaker 11: Oh, but we worked for another year until she processed
• 16:26
  Speaker 11: a visa to the US.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Okay. And did she have to like pay you something?
• 16:32
  Speaker 11: Oh, definitely. Yes, something.
• 16:36
  Speaker 6: And then how was the relationship for that year that she.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Was still here?
• 16:41
  Speaker 9: Oh, no.
• 16:41
  Speaker 11: She said she was suffering from anxiety. She's taking tablets.
• 16:47
  Speaker 11: So I took it as temporal insanity and I moved on.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: And you just carried on with your job?
• 16:53
  Speaker 11: Jeez, Anil, I had two kids by then. So there's
• 16:56
  Speaker 11: no way I'm just going to quit. So on the
• 16:58
  Speaker 11: back of my mind, and if you work as a nanny,
• 17:01
  Speaker 11: you need a reference. Because if you're going to employ me,
• 17:04
  Speaker 11: you're going to ask me, what was your last job?
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Where were you? For eight years.
• 17:08
  Speaker 11: So I can't say I have an eight-year gap because
• 17:10
  Speaker 11: I was five.
• 17:11
  Speaker 7: Yes, yeah.
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: But now, Tuli, let me just say, if I, as
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: your boss, fired you as the nanny, right? And then
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: you took me to CCMA and then you got reinstated.
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: Let's just say I'm not drinking any tea that comes
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: from you.
• 17:31
  Speaker 11: I'm not drinking your tea either.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: No one's drinking tea.
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: Game recognises game, Thule.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Game recognises game. Let's go to the founder of Labour
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: South Africa.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: She's on the employer side of labour law and industrial
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: relations consultant. Her name is Elique Swart. Am I saying
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: that correct, ma'am? Sir, Sir, Elique Swart.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Am I saying that correctly?
• 17:54
  Speaker 7: Yes, good morning. Yes, my name is Elique Swart.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Elique Swart. Elique Swart, you've been listening to this. What's
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: your take on it?
• 17:59
  Speaker 7: This is a difficult matter.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Let me explain.
• 18:04
  Speaker 7: Let's just break it down first, the first part of
• 18:06
  Speaker 7: this whole situation. Zenobia's case is an ongoing case, and
• 18:14
  Speaker 7: we are not going to look into that. Let's look
• 18:17
  Speaker 7: at a situation where an employee goes to CCMA and
• 18:21
  Speaker 7: is reinstated by a war party commissioner.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 18:25
  Speaker 7: And... Employer now does not fight back by going on
• 18:29
  Speaker 7: review to a labour court. Let's say the employee now
• 18:32
  Speaker 7: has to go back to work on Monday. Now you
• 18:35
  Speaker 7: sit with a situation of what the practical and the
• 18:40
  Speaker 7: theory parts of the law say. The theory says, yes,
• 18:47
  Speaker 7: it is possible for the employment relationship to go on
• 18:51
  Speaker 7: to work. in a way, be a clean slate, start afresh.
• 18:58
  Speaker 7: The reinstatement in South Africa, in terms of the ALR,
• 19:02
  Speaker 7: is a primary remedy. So, legally, you return as if
• 19:06
  Speaker 7: you never were dismissed.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but the law is not emotional. The law is practical.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Now we're talking emotions now.
• 19:13
  Speaker 7: Yes, that's precisely that. That's why I'm saying theory versus practice. Aha.
• 19:18
  Speaker 8: So.
• 19:20
  Speaker 7: under theory there should no be no payback no discrimination
• 19:24
  Speaker 7: by the employer but in my years of experience this
• 19:28
  Speaker 7: is quite different to what really happens on the floor
• 19:32
  Speaker 7: especially with your lower earning people your minimum wage earners
• 19:38
  Speaker 7: the employer is aggrieved he or she feels that you
• 19:42
  Speaker 7: took me to the CCMA the employee feels fearful. What
• 19:50
  Speaker 7: am I going to be discriminated against when I go
• 19:52
  Speaker 7: back to the workplace? And this is the practice part
• 19:56
  Speaker 7: under the circumstances. How are you going to solve that relationship?
• 20:04
  Speaker 7: In a few of your callers today, it was clear
• 20:07
  Speaker 7: that there's some people who have gone back to who
• 20:10
  Speaker 7: were able to work, but that's a handful of people.
• 20:14
  Speaker 7: Under the circumstances, you find that it's a difficult way
• 20:19
  Speaker 7: to reinstate that relationship that was there prior to the circumstances.
• 20:26
  Speaker 7: So what you normally get, employers go and say, guys, yes,
• 20:32
  Speaker 7: Julie is back into the workplace, but now we have
• 20:35
  Speaker 7: to put that person to the grind. If she makes
• 20:40
  Speaker 7: a mistake, make sure we get a warning. If she
• 20:43
  Speaker 7: gets something done, let's work that out on a legal
• 20:47
  Speaker 7: basis so there's a more stringent way of looking at
• 20:51
  Speaker 7: her versus the rest of the employees in the workplace,
• 20:54
  Speaker 7: for example.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: Because all you're doing then, which you get reinstated, is
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: you're giving your employer the chance to fire you correctly now.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: Because by you taking the CCMA and then getting.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Reinstated, it's not that your employer is wrong.
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: It's just that they fired you along the wrong measures.
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: So now you're just giving them a chance to go
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: do revision.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I'm saying? It's a revision. Now
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: it's like, okay, I wrote my exam.
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: I got 40%, but now I know exactly where I
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: went wrong. When I write this exam again, I'm going
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: to get 90%.
• 21:29
  Speaker 7: It's 100%. Unfortunately, this is what happens in practice.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:35
  Speaker 7: In my years of experience, a lot of employees would
• 21:38
  Speaker 7: have said to me, oh, but if I go back
• 21:42
  Speaker 7: to the workplace, what will happen to me? Will they
• 21:46
  Speaker 7: victimise me? Will other employees be against me? Or is
• 21:52
  Speaker 7: the employer going to put me to the grind?
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the answer is probably yes.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, they're absolutely going to do that.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Theory and the practice are two different things, right?
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: Also because there's this assumption that just because somebody's in
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: a leadership position or they're a boss that they mature.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: They're not. They are normal human beings with a score
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: to settle and an ego to be bruised.
• 22:14
  Speaker 8: Yes.
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: And if you take your employer to the CCMA, that
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: is a bruise to their ego.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Probably.
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: So obviously when you come back, it's a sideways look.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Step wrong once.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, one day is one day. After school is after school.