Transcript

You're Walking All Wrong · HER

0:08
Pam Peeke, MD: Hi, I'm Dr.
0:09
Pam Peak, and This is episode number 551 of the Bold And
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the Brave, her podcast Now.
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Today I'm joined by someone you are absolutely going to love.
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I am enamored by how badly people walk.
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And the fact they know nothing about their shoes And that this guy Steven
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Sashen, oh my gosh, Steven is.
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The founder of Zero Shoes.
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Now how cool is that?
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You couldn't tell because he's wearing that T-shirt, but he's the
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founder of Zero Shoes and he is actually a serial entrepreneur who
0:59
is proud to say he's never had a job.
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He's a former professional standup comic, which is why we get along so well.
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'cause you all know that if medicine doesn't work, there's always standup.
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An award-winning screenwriter and a competitive sprinter.
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One of the fastest men over 60 in the country.
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I mean, can you just say, and he's gonna tell us about the
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development, of the zero shoes.
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Company what it's all about.
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What this barefoot, barefoot walking, the barefoot thing is all about.
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And you all know that I'm a runner.
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I've, I'm a senior Olympic triathlete, so I've done my share of marathons
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and whatever, and I've had a hell of a time trying to find it.
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Damn shoe that will really kind of work.
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so we're gonna be talking about all of that.
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He and his wife, Lena Phoenix, co-founded zero Shoes and he's creating a movement.
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Movement.
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What the hell is that?
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Steven, welcome to the her podcast.
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Steven Sashen: Well, first of all, thank you and I'm so excited 'cause I didn't
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realize this 551 is my lucky number.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Get out.
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You're so full of crap.
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No.
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Is there like some nanogram or you know, some weird thing
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that goes along with that?
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Well, who knows?
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Anyway, you have to go to X and you know, look it up and there's
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always somebody writing about some weird number or something.
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So.
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I am so excited to see you.
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I'm gonna tell everyone how I really discovered, Steve And the Zero shoes, And
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that was because, one of my colleagues, you know, have been on the board of the
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American College of Sports Medicine, Steve and his company were kind enough.
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To gift us, with a wonderful, donation, to help support our research, and
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our services, for all things sports, medicine and physical activity.
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And so shout out to zero shoes for doing that.
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and, We'll be back for more.
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No, but just kidding.
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Oh my gosh.
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She didn't really say that.
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So, that being said, that's how we all got together.
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And then, Irene would say, who, she's my fellow board member.
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would say, you, you've gotta meet this guy and these shoes are to
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die for and you've gotta learn.
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'cause she is a physical therapist and she's all about spreading your toes out.
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Making sure that you're working your ligaments and tendons and everything
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in your feet instead of everything getting all squished inside of a little
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nasty shoe that doesn't work for you.
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so I was utterly intrigued And so I looked you up and I found a YouTube video that I
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made seriously, I could not put it down.
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You were out there, you know, basically barefooting and it was wild.
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You were just showing.
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How everyone.
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Walks poorly.
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they don't get it.
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And you did it in such a clear and articulate way.
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I was absolutely dumbfounded.
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Like, damn, we gotta get him to help all of us on the Herb Podcast walk.
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So first, Steve, tell me what I mean, look at all the stuff
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you have, the screenwriter and
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Steven Sashen: Oh, that stuff.
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Oh yeah.
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Pam Peeke, MD: stuff.
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No.
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You know what we call that talent stacking.
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Steven Sashen: I call it, they didn't have Ritalin when I
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was a kid, so, I've been,
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Pam Peeke, MD: have Adderall.
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Steven Sashen: yeah, yeah, I tried it.
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It doesn't work for me.
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I, I've been really, really lucky that I've spent my.
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Life.
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just being able to go from one thing that I find interesting to the next and
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being able to make a living doing that, but more helping people along the way
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in various ways, even doing standup.
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I mean, that's a way of helping people, I would argue.
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but I wanna back up to your mentioning Irene, because, she's much more
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than a physical therapist, of course, but I'll tell a part of her
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story that she often doesn't tell.
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Which is how did she become the den mother of natural movement?
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How did she become the person who's leading the charge for getting people
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to understand the right way to move, starting feet first, because those
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things at the end of your legs, what's interesting, people will go to the gym
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and, you know, try to make everything strong from their ankles up and ignore
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everything from the ankles down, which supports everything from the ankles up.
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So Irene, when she was, a PT and still like, and teaching people as well.
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had this realization, it's like, you know, when someone comes in for
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physical therapy, we try to get them moving as much as they can safely
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given whatever limitations they have.
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And we do that with every part of their body except their feet.
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When somebody comes in and they have a foot problem or something
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that the feet could be causing the problem in the ankles, knees, hips,
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back, et cetera, we immobilize them.
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We put an orthotic in there And we make it so they can't move.
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Now, that's an interesting thing because I like to say to people, which is better,
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This is stupid question I'm about to ask, like really stupid, not a trick question.
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I'll ask people, which is better for your body, weaker or stronger?
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And then they hesitate.
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And I have to say again, it's not a trick question.
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So, and they go, okay, stronger.
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I go, cool.
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So let's talk about your arm.
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If you wanna make your arm weaker, how do you do that?
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And they'll say, don't use it.
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I go, right, if you put a cast around your elbow, so you are supporting that
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joint keyword, And then all the muscles, ligaments, and tendons around that
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joint that's being supported get weaker.
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And you just said weaker isn't better.
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What happens when you have 33 joints in each foot and you put an orthotic in
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there, or just a stiff shoe that doesn't let your foot bend what's happening
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to all those muscles, ligaments, and tendons around those 33 joints?
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And what problems might that be causing for you at the end of the day or the
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month or the year or the However long, and usually that makes people go, oh.
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So the walking thing is similar.
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and let me actually put a giant umbrella over the conversation while I, my
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wife and I have started a footwear company to support all these ideas.
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Well, I don't wanna use the word support, the wrong way to encourage all
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these ideas that we know are helpful.
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Pam Peeke, MD: That's right.
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Steven Sashen: we're not talking about footwear, we're talking about proper form.
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We're talking about using your body, the way it's designed to be used
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properly instead of getting in the way with things that actually literally
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have been proven to cause the problems that the big companies are using, and
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claiming that they're the solution for.
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So that's the context.
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So what was your question?
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Pam Peeke, MD: You know, This is the way this whole interview is gonna go.
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Steven Sashen: Yeah, probably.
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Pam Peeke, MD: We're just going to be like, you know, like on a, on a hike, we
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just take a little, trip over here And then we come back again and whatever.
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No, I mean, why did you start
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Zero.
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Steven Sashen: So, let's see.
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I'm 63 years old now.
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18 years ago, I had to do the math that way.
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I got back into sprinting after a 30 year break, and I spent the next two years
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getting injured pretty much constantly.
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I don't think I had more than two weeks in a row where I wasn't injured in some way.
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And at the end of that two years, a friend of mine who is a world champion
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cross country runner, a handed me a copy of the book Born to Run, which even if
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you're not a runner, phenomenal read.
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My wife is not a runner.
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She couldn't put it down.
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So highly
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Pam Peeke, MD: I loved it.
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I absolutely
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Steven Sashen: It's, it's just a great book about, the Tot Mara Indians
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in Mexico who run exceedingly long distances in sandals made from a scrap
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of tire laced to their foot and how they won the two Leadville races.
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Actually, the first Leadville race, which is the highest marathon in
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the country, they won the first year they did it the second year.
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They had a shoe sponsor.
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And they were wearing, started out wearing the shoes and after a couple
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miles, couldn't wear them, threw them off and finish the whole thing barefoot.
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they won.
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So it's about them, but it's also just about the story of the author
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Chris McDougall, who was an always injured runner becoming not injured.
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And the first ultra marathon down in the Copper Canyon of Mexico
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with the totara And the science of bout natural movement as well.
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So he handed me the book.
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And suggested that I run barefoot to see if I learned anything.
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And what I learned when I did my first barefoot run, is that, well,
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first of all, running barefoot, good form feels good, bad form hurts.
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And so on this first barefoot run, I'm just experimenting with my gait to find
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a way that felt good or felt right.
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And when I say experiment, I tried everything I could think of.
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I tried running faster with the same cadence, the same
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number of steps per minute.
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I tried running slower with the same cadence.
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I tried the same speed with a different cadence.
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I tried landing on different parts of my foot.
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I tried taking on, I mean, everything I could think of And the end of this run.
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Now, I'm a sprinter.
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I've never run more than a mile of my own volition, and I've hated
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everything after the first 200 meters.
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So at the end of this barefoot run where we were on grass And then on
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trails and on roads and on everything the surface you could think of in
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Colorado, I said to somebody, cause I was just transfixed the whole time.
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I was really just totally engaged with this experiment and I had no idea how
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long we were out or what we had done.
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And I said to someone who had a GPS watch, how long was that?
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And she said, that was a little over 5K.
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I just went, what?
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Because I could have kept going.
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We just all stopped as a group.
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So that was part one, was I was just fascinated.
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Part two was about a half an hour later, I realized I had a giant
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blister on the ball of my left foot.
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Now, many people would say, oh, This is bullshit because like I got a blister.
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I, for whatever reason, said, huh, how come my right foot's fine?
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And Oh yeah, my left leg is the one that gets injured more often.
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So what's up with that?
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And the next week we did another barefoot run and I had a gaping hole in the ball
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of my left foot, and I figured if I could find a way to run that didn't hurt.
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I probably wasn't doing the thing that caused the problem to begin with.
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Give it 10 minutes.
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If it doesn't work, I'll either give it up or I'll try again later, whatever.
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I don't know, nine minutes and 30 seconds of agony later.
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But at the nine minute 30, one second mark, everything
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changed literally in one stride.
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And I'll tell you what I, what happened in a moment.
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But the key is my running got faster, easier, lighter.
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Felt good.
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I felt like I could have gone forever and within a couple
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weeks my injuries were gone.
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I was getting faster.
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I've been a masters, all American Sprinter, one of the fastest
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guys in the country in my age group for the last, 15 years.
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And what I discovered, And this relates to walking too, And for
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anyone watching pardon the beam of light that I can't make, go away.
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Or maybe it's a sign, I don't know.
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but suffice it to say, what I discovered is that I had been overstriding, so
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I was reaching out with my left foot.
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And because sprinters are supposed to land on the ball of your foot, pointing
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my toes to land on the ball of my foot and just putting a whole bunch
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of friction right at that one spot that caused a blister 'cause that's
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what causes blisters friction or heat.
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but my gate changed from that one barefoot run, never went back.
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And here we are.
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And I wanted that barefoot experience as much as I could have it.
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But my wife got tired of me walking into our white carpeted
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house with my dirty ass bare feet.
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And I got tired of arguing with restaurants about whether it
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was legal to go in there in bare feet, which by the way, it is.
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so I made a pair of sandals similar to the ones that Tama wear in the Copper Canyon.
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I found some, rubber from a shoe repair place.
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I got some cord from Home Depot.
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I figured out a 10,000 year old tying system.
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Laced them up, made some pairs for about a, couple dozen other barefoot runners.
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And one day, one of the Barefoot running coaches said, I've got a
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book coming out on Barefoot running, and if you treated this little
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sandal making hobby of yours like a business, I could put you in my book.
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Now, I've been an internet marketer since 1992.
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I built hundreds of websites, so I rushed home with this.
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Brilliant idea to share with my wife who told me I was a complete idiot.
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and she knows me well and said, it's a waste of time and money.
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it'll interfere with this other business we had started.
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It won't make any money, just do not build a website.
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And I agreed with her.
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I told her I definitely would not build a website and she went to
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bed and I built a website and,
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Pam Peeke, MD: Of course, I mean, you know, wiping shock off face.
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sure.
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Absolutely.
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Steven Sashen: it, see, I mean, see now she kind of growled at me and I
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the next morning and I said, it'll be a case study for one of our businesses.
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And very quickly it became clear from the response we were getting
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from our customers that it was much more than a case study.
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We were onto something.
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I mean, our first customers kept using the phrase life-changing.
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And that was 16 years and a few months ago, where at that time we had a.
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Do it yourself, sandal making kit that we were selling and now we have 70 plus
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different styles of casual and performance shoes, boots and sandals that people
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wear for everything from walking on the beach to slippers around the house,
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to hiking Kilimanjaro, to going to work, to playing in the NBA and WNBA.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, so seriously, if you go to the website for zero
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shoes, I'll show you what I'm craving.
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And of course, I went to REI and they didn't have it, and I went home crying,
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Steven Sashen: I know a guy who knows, guy who knows where they the truck.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, I'm just.
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saying.
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so my favorite one is this super colorful beyond, you know, the one I'm talking
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about, the Hs no HFS original women.
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It's got like.
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It looks like screaming green, some pinky red, aqua, blah, blah.
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And maybe, maybe it was like a yellowish instead of green.
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I don't know.
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All I know is I crave it.
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I just crave.
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Steven Sashen: Well, I gotta tell you, when people, tell me that they love
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that shoe, and it was the first running shoe that we developed back in about 2017
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ish, we had to come up with a name and I said, why don't we just go with what
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every one of the wear testers said when we asked them what they thought of the shoe.
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And it was three words starting with third.
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Holy.
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I'll just leave it at that.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Oh God, I love it.
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So basically we got four letter words all over.
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We got an F-bomb, an F.
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And, and it starts with a holy, so that's the way it should be.
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And so I was trying to figure out where HF, You know, it sounded
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kinda like technical, like, You
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Steven Sashen: Some people will say highly flexible soul, which it is.
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They'll say Happy face shoe.
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'cause that's what happens when you put 'em on and your toes aren't
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getting squeezed together and your posture isn't all messed up.
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yeah, they've, people have come up with a lot of ideas, but then
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I tell them what the reality is.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, now we've got all these.
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Beautiful, wonderful women out there listening in and they're saying, uh, you
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know, I'm wearing kind of like cushiony shoes, and you hear the internet, I mean,
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whether it's TikTok or you know, Dr.
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Google or whomever, is just a bunch of conflicting advice with people
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saying, well, cushion is where it's at.
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you should be.
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Protecting your feet, et cetera.
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And then other people saying, cushion, what are you crazy or something.
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And then you've got the rolling forward guys.
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You know, Those are the hokas And the
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Steven Sashen: Yeah.
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So let me wait.
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I'm gonna interrupt and change a word because, it's not advice, it's opinions.
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Pam Peeke, MD: opinion.
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Steven Sashen: And the research could not be more clear.
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What we are doing is good for you And what they're doing is bad for you.
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Now I can explain all of the whys because it's counterintuitive.
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I mean, This is the thing, 'cause You know, when you sit on something
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cushioned or feel something cushioned, it feels good, but that
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doesn't mean it's good for you.
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So let me actually start with a simple thing.
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Almost every shoe you're gonna buy right now has, I'm
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gonna hold up a shoe as an as.
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An example, has a pointy toe box.
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And I like to say to people, is that the shape of your foot?
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Because if it is, it's not supposed to be.
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And what problems might you feel at the end of the day, for example,
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when you've just been squeezing your toes together for all this time?
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And then people will tell me about how they love to kick off their shoes and
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how, you know, they're always fine.
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I mean, whatever it is, it's like that's just not normal.
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Your toes aren't supposed to be squeezed together.
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In fact, if you just push your big toe in, it cuts off some of the
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circulation to your entire foot, which, I hear is not good for you.
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So let's just start there.
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Now, let's have an interesting talk about, before I get to cushioning,
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lemme talk about two other things.
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and I'll ask you this question and, uh, This is putting you to
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the test, but don't worry, I'm sure you'll pass, which is better, being
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aware of things happening with your body or being oblivious to things.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, This is another one of those.
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You know, it's kind of obvious stupid and you know what's going on.
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Well, obviously being aware of your body, we actually call it interceptive.
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Steven Sashen: Yes.
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Yes.
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I love that you did that.
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'cause people often talk about proprioception 'cause they think it's
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the same as introception, which is not.
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But that's our, one of our personal PEth peeves.
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Like I hate when people say very unique.
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It's either one of a kind or it's one of a kind.
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So anyway.
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Alright, I'm gonna ask you a second question.
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You have 200,000 nerve endings And the sole of each foot.
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Why?
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Pam Peeke, MD: Oh my goodness gracious.
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So.
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You wanna have nerve endings in the soul to be able to a, give you
18:04
a sense of where you are, right?
18:08
Two, to be able to give you feedback because the nerve network, you know,
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will go right back up to the brain And the brain will say, what the heck are
18:19
you doing with your damn foot already?
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And This is also why.
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When you get massage in your feet, it resonates in other parts of your body.
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so you're getting constant feedback, both about pain,
18:35
comfort, discomfort, everything.
18:37
You're just getting this whole panoply of, well, basically, yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Steven Sashen: And your brain uses that to help you figure out how to
18:46
best move across or over whatever surface you're running across, or
18:50
walking or moving across or over.
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So the question is, how much can you feel with one of those big,
18:55
thick, heavily cushioned shoes?
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Pam Peeke, MD: A hell of a lot
18:58
Steven Sashen: What problems might that cause when you're stepping on
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things that are uneven or you're not getting information to your
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Pam Peeke, MD: you don't know until you'll injure yourself.
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Steven Sashen: Right.
19:06
So let's go back and now there's one other thing.
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Most of those shoes, okay, here I'll do another stupid question, which is better.
19:11
Proper alignment or misalignment.
19:13
Pam Peeke, MD: Obviously
19:14
Steven Sashen: I know I can't even find a good, you know, way to do those two
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words.
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So, it.
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Pam Peeke, MD: have to work on
19:18
this.
19:19
Steven Sashen: know.
19:19
It's a tricky one.
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I think I had one once, but I can't remember.
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Anyway, suffice it to say, so almost every one of those shoes elevates your heel.
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Now if you elevate your heel even a tiny bit, it's tipping
19:29
you a little bit forward.
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And then you have to adjust with your hips, your knees, your ankles, your
19:34
back, some way to be properly aligned so you don't fall in your face.
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that ain't good is the simplest way I can put it, because you're literally
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putting strain on muscles, ligaments, and tendons that are designed to just
19:44
help your body be stacked properly.
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So you don't need to use all that effort to be properly aligned.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, now the question is, This is very popular, the whole
19:55
Hoka thing, so it is leaning forward.
19:58
Is that good,
20:00
Steven Sashen: No, it's not good.
20:03
Well, there's the, there's two things that you just highlighted.
20:05
The leaning forward.
20:05
Wait, I'm gonna come back to 'em.
20:06
'cause you mentioned one about the whole rocking thing.
20:09
I'm gonna do the world's fastest physics lesson and hopefully, it'll jog a memory
20:13
for people because it requires that there's a slow motion movie that was
20:17
made back in the early days of movies.
20:19
You can find it online.
20:20
Many people have seen it of this big, like, you know, guy to like, it looked
20:24
like a circus about a 350, 400 pound guy who takes a cannonball to the stomach.
20:29
That was his thing.
20:30
He just got hit with a cannonball getting shot out of a cannon.
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And it's an amazing thing what happens.
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The cannonball hits him and he kind of bends over it, And then
20:38
the fat you see rippling out in slow motion and that's absorbing
20:42
the pressure from the cannonball.
20:45
But the force is, sends this 300, 400 pound guy flying
20:49
back into a tarp to catch him.
20:51
So cushioning can feel good because it's spreading the pressure out.
20:55
So it's technically the, the sort of.
20:57
Um, the waves of pressure are wider than your feet.
21:00
Ability to sense the pressure properly.
21:02
So, it feels nice, it feels a little squishy.
21:05
It feels good, but the force still has to go somewhere.
21:08
So if you are landing hard, especially on your heel with your foot slightly
21:13
outstretched in front of you, your leg is pretty straight And that force
21:16
is going into your ankle, your knee, your hip, your back, And those joints
21:21
are not designed to handle that force.
21:23
Whichever's the weakest link in the chain is gonna suffer.
21:25
And worse, because they don't have the same sensory mechanisms that your feet do.
21:30
You won't notice it till it's too late.
21:33
You won't know until you have a real problem.
21:36
Pam Peeke, MD: Can I have a, a, a quick question here.
21:38
How does all of this, the cushioning.
21:41
The force going forward, the rocking, all that stuff.
21:44
What is that doing to posture?
21:46
Because posture is so important.
21:50
Steven Sashen: So again, you know, I was thinking about this last night of trying
21:53
to come up with a good visual for this, where I was just imagining if you took
21:56
a yard stick and just balanced it on something where you could lift the back
22:00
up a millimeter, if you lift up the back a millimeter, the whole thing will tip over.
22:04
So what it's doing to your posture is it's, well, here's
22:07
the simplest thing I can say.
22:09
If you've been wearing a higher heeled shoe of any sort, and you
22:11
take them off and just stand upright.
22:13
And then someone actually looks at you and moves your body to what's actually
22:17
vertical, you're gonna say, Ooh, I feel like I'm gonna fall backwards.
22:21
Because you're so used to, you've adapted to this forward posture.
22:24
One of the things your brain does, which is kind of good, kind of bad, is if you
22:29
subject it to a certain kind of stress, over time it will eventually acclimate and
22:33
not tell you you're doing the wrong thing.
22:35
So if you're wearing a higher healed shoe, and I literally mean by just a
22:38
millimeter or two, that's all it takes.
22:41
you're gonna acclimate to the effort that you're putting into adjusting
22:44
so that you're able to be upright without falling on your face.
22:47
But that's not good.
22:49
And it's not even good for running or for walking as well.
22:52
for walking.
22:53
If you are, like, what many people do when they're standing to adjust for
22:57
the fact that they've tipped forward is they lean back from their hips.
23:00
So their hips are still forward, but the rest of 'em is slightly behind.
23:03
And we'll get to the walking part in a second, but the only
23:06
way you can walk if you've.
23:08
Kind of lean back at your hips or lean back from your back.
23:11
It is kind of by kicking your feet out in front of you.
23:13
'cause you don't have the effort that it takes to do hip
23:15
extension, to push backwards.
23:17
It's just too much effort.
23:18
It's easier to kick out in front of you.
23:20
And that we'll find out in a moment is not good.
23:23
Pam Peeke, MD: Okay.
23:23
Now hold on.
23:24
Hold that thought.
23:25
When we come back, we're going to pick.
23:28
This up with Steve and we're gonna get down to the whole issue of
23:33
walking and another critical issue.
23:37
If you've gotten acclimated to the cushiony sneakers, how do you
23:42
now acclimate to barefoot walking?
23:47
You know those beautiful zero shoes.
23:50
Alright, when we come back.
24:52
And we're back.
24:53
Alright, so which one do you wanna take first?
24:55
Do you wanna take, the poor walking situation or the, how
25:01
long does it take to adapt to,
25:04
you know, the more, yeah.
25:07
Steven Sashen: walking first.
25:08
Pam Peeke, MD: Let's do it.
25:09
Steven Sashen: Okay, so, the simplest I can say about walking,
25:12
actually, wait, I'm gonna back up and do something totally tangential.
25:15
many people will say if what you're doing, this whole natural movement
25:17
thing, letting your toes spread, letting your feet be, not elevated.
25:21
that rocker thing that's only there because the shoe is so stiff that if you
25:25
didn't have a rocker in it, every time you'd walk, it would sound like this.
25:29
You'd have duck feet.
25:31
So if the shoe is stiff, you need to have that rocker, otherwise you
25:34
won't be able to walk properly.
25:35
The shoe companies will claim that's helping propel you forward.
25:38
I was actually on a panel discussion at the American College of Sports
25:41
Medicine and a guy from Brooks said just that next to me, and I grabbed
25:45
the mic from him and I said, do you mind if I'm obnoxious for a second?
25:48
And he goes, sure.
25:49
I said, nothing propels you forward except your goddamn legs.
25:52
And then I hand the mic back to him.
25:53
I said, you can't violate the laws of physics.
25:55
And he goes, all right, we're not trying to violate the laws of physics on Cool.
25:58
Anyway.
25:59
so there's that.
26:00
but people will say, why aren't the big companies doing this?
26:03
I will tell you two things.
26:04
One, executives at every one of these companies has said either directly
26:07
to my face or directly to someone that I know what zero issues is
26:10
doing this natural movement idea.
26:12
It's for real.
26:13
But if we did it, we'd be admitting we've been lying for the last 50 years and.
26:18
Nike has actually done research showing that different shoe designs have
26:21
different injury rates, And the shoe that they made that had a lower injury
26:25
rate than their bestselling shoe.
26:27
What made it better was they got rid of quote, many of the protective features.
26:31
They made it more like what we're doing, but not enough.
26:34
They still injured between 14 and a half and 30% of the runners wearing both
26:38
each of these shoes in under 12 weeks.
26:40
And if we injured 14 point a half to 30% of people wearing our shoes in 12 months,
26:45
I wouldn't have a wall of shoes behind me.
26:47
I'd have bars from a jail cell in front of me.
26:50
So let's, alright, pause.
26:52
I'll come back to that.
26:53
Suffice them to say, they all know bottom line.
26:55
Okay.
26:56
the walking thing.
26:58
If you watch people walk in different countries and different cultures, you'll
27:02
notice they have a different gait pattern.
27:04
And often it has to do with the footwear they're wearing or not wearing.
27:09
Again, if you're walking or running barefoot, good form feels good.
27:13
Bad form hurts.
27:15
So the easiest thing I could say is take off your shoes, find a smooth,
27:20
but not, perfectly smooth surface, maybe a little, you know, irritating.
27:25
And just go for a really short walk.
27:27
And just see what changes.
27:28
See what happens.
27:29
And you're gonna get, you find things that are not unpleasant.
27:31
Like if you're running, if you have been someone who overrides and heel strikes,
27:35
if you take off your shoes, landing on the back, part of your heel will hurt.
27:40
It's supposed to, 'cause that's not the way you're supposed to be moving.
27:43
So again, if you're leaning back a little to adjust for that elevated
27:47
heel, you're gonna be kicking your feet out in front of you.
27:49
You're gonna be landing typically heel first with your leg.
27:52
Relatively straight running Shoe companies have.
27:55
Been for years trying to tell you that that's what you're supposed to do.
27:57
Land on your heel, roll onto your foot, And that the longer your stride
28:01
is, the better that research is.
28:03
Very clear.
28:03
That's not true.
28:04
Again, pressure versus force.
28:06
If you're landing on your heel with a straight leg, all
28:08
that force is going somewhere.
28:09
It's going into your body into a weak place.
28:12
All the foam That is designed to try to protect you.
28:15
there's so many things I can say about foam.
28:16
Here's an easy one.
28:18
Any bit of foam is tuned to a weight and speed.
28:21
It is optimal at a particular, if you're a particular weight,
28:24
moving at a particular speed.
28:26
And if you're neither of those, it's gonna mess you up.
28:28
And I guarantee you are neither of those bottom line.
28:32
so there's, that problem.
28:34
so this landing with your foot way out in front of you is non-optimal
28:38
for a really simple reason.
28:40
You have a couple of really, really big muscles that you rarely get
28:43
to see 'cause they're behind you.
28:45
It's your butt and your hamstrings.
28:47
They're called prime movers for a reason.
28:50
Watch, oh, now's a perfect time.
28:52
If, uh, you're watching the Olympics or watch recordings.
28:54
Watch speed skaters.
28:57
They're pushing behind them to move forward.
29:00
They have their planted foot is on a skate underneath their center of mass,
29:05
And then they're pushing behind them.
29:07
That's how they move forward.
29:09
Now we can do
29:10
the
29:10
Pam Peeke, MD: that's where they get those big buts.
29:12
Steven Sashen: they do.
29:13
can I tell you a really fun story?
29:14
Pam Peeke, MD: Go for it.
29:15
Steven Sashen: One of my best friends from high school was a cross country runner.
29:17
She ended up in medical school with Eric Hein, former Olympic, speed skater,
29:21
and they ran together and just, you know, trained together, ran together.
29:24
Then they were, entered a cross country race.
29:26
And my friend, completely destroyed him.
29:29
And he was stunned.
29:30
He said, you know what, how, what just happened?
29:32
I mean, every time we're running, you're behind me.
29:33
She goes, yeah, so I can stare at your butt, you idiot.
29:36
Pam Peeke, MD: Oh no, there's no question about it.
29:38
Well, here's my Eric Heiden thing.
29:40
He was actually, as it were, one of my, Interns, residents at the University
29:47
of California where he was, in his training to be an orthopedic surgeon.
29:51
So, needless to say, every single nurse, all the female doctors,
29:55
everyone, we just adjusted our on-call schedules and, you know, told the
30:00
guys that, no, I'll take it tonight.
30:02
No, no problem whatsoever.
30:04
and I'm gonna, You know, be spending a lot of time in the ortho ward.
30:07
You know, they need us a lot in whatever.
30:09
I mean, he.
30:10
He was needless to say, a magnificent athlete.
30:14
you know, real eye candy too.
30:16
Steven Sashen: yeah.
30:17
Pam Peeke, MD: There
30:17
Steven Sashen: gonna say it was more than just the female nurses,
30:20
uh, who are interested in him.
30:21
He's.
30:22
Pam Peeke, MD: everyone.
30:23
Oh my God.
30:23
Steven Sashen: And his sister also amazing.
30:25
In, in the, for the exact same reasons.
30:27
Okay, so, This is a tricky thing to do by just describing it, which is
30:31
why I've got a video on our website.
30:33
If you go to the website, there's an explorer section, and under the air, I
30:35
just think about walking the natural way.
30:37
I'm gonna describe this thing and people can either, can try to do it.
30:41
So what we're gonna try and do is use our glutes and hamstrings to move us forward.
30:46
The way they're designed to, in a way That is more effortless and puts less strain
30:50
on your body, let's your feet give your brain the information that it needs to
30:54
actually use the muscles, ligaments, and tendons around the ankle, the knee And the
30:57
hip, as joint stabilizers and protectors, which is one of those or two of those
31:01
functions, so you can be more efficient.
31:03
It will feel weird.
31:05
'cause you're not used to it.
31:06
It will be a little slower than you're used to.
31:08
So what?
31:10
but if you adjust to it, you're gonna find that walking is a whole lot easier
31:14
and running is gonna be very similar.
31:15
So here's the instruction that I give people.
31:17
Stand up, lift your left foot and inch off the ground.
31:21
Then as if you're speed skating and pushing your right foot behind
31:25
you, that's what you wanna do.
31:27
And don't do anything with your left foot.
31:28
Don't move it in front of you.
31:29
Just let it hang there.
31:31
And don't worry you won't fall on your face because at the last second it
31:34
will hit the ground your brain will protect you from landing on your face.
31:38
And the moment you hit the ground, if you look, you'll notice that
31:41
you've landed a kind of flatfooted or maybe starting on the, the ball,
31:46
the outside edge of the ball of your foot maybe, but it'll be pretty
31:48
much underneath your center of mass.
31:50
It'll be under you instead of way out in front of you.
31:52
And then you're gonna lather, rinse, and repeat.
31:55
Now you have your left foot on the ground, you're gonna relax your right leg.
31:58
You don't need to swing it forward.
31:59
It'll come forward as soon as you take it off the ground.
32:01
You don't need to do anything, but then push back with your left leg.
32:05
Don't let your right leg kind of kick out in front of you and let
32:08
it also just plop on the ground underneath your center of mass.
32:12
And now lather, rinse and repeat.
32:13
And do that again.
32:14
You will be walking like Frankenstein's monster.
32:17
That's okay.
32:19
But you just wanna get this whole feeling of pushing.
32:21
Out of the back.
32:22
Now, if you really wanna have fun, take one of your hands, like when
32:26
your right foot is planted on the ground and it is gonna be pushing you.
32:29
Put it on your butt and see when it's pushing.
32:31
If you can feel your butt actually engaged.
32:34
If not, that ain't good.
32:36
You wanna be using it?
32:37
See if you can actually like, squeeze your butt and make it tense if you
32:41
haven't been aware of it, you wanna feel what's going on back there.
32:45
In fact, if This is tricky for you, exaggerate doing it wrong.
32:48
Kick your foot way out in front of you and let it land on your heel
32:51
And then push your way and kind of pogo your way over that one so you
32:54
can feel what wrong feels like, And then go back to doing it this way.
32:57
One foot, barely off the ground.
32:59
The other foot is pushing behind you like you're skating.
33:01
Don't do anything with that leading foot.
33:03
That swing leg is, is what we call it.
33:06
Let it just naturally hit the ground And then repeat.
33:08
And then the next step, once you get used to it looking like a robot, just
33:12
try to smooth it out a little bit.
33:14
Take slightly smaller steps, maybe, whatever.
33:16
Just see what it takes to smooth it out a little bit.
33:18
Now if you want the advanced lesson, there's a really cool thing you can do.
33:22
Find a small uphill.
33:25
And you wanna do this same thing with a twist.
33:28
Literally with a twist.
33:30
So when you're pushing back with that right foot, twist your
33:33
upper body slightly to the left.
33:35
Then your foot is gonna, your left foot's gonna land and you wanna start by
33:38
twisting your body slightly to the right.
33:40
Now what's gonna happen is that right hip flexor has been stretched a little bit
33:44
when it was on the ground pushing you.
33:46
And by twisting it can release like a spring and it'll come forward just a
33:50
little bit and it will land slightly in front of you 'cause you're going
33:53
uphill without you having to do anything just by twisting and letting
33:57
that stretch spring of your right hamster of your right hip flexor go.
34:01
It'll come up And then just.
34:02
Pam Peeke, MD: Remember you were doing this in the video,
34:04
in the YouTube video.
34:05
You were going up a hill, not a horrible incline or anything,
34:08
Steven Sashen: That's a good 15 degrees.
34:10
Pam Peeke, MD: you using that,
34:11
Steven Sashen: Yeah, you're just literally like twisting your way up the hill.
34:15
And now if you wanna have the advanced, advanced thing, you
34:18
can do a little version of that.
34:19
Same thing when you're walking on a flat surface, there's still that
34:22
little bit of twist that will allow you to make it even more effortless.
34:26
So.
34:27
Over time.
34:28
What you'll find once you get used to it is you can walk for
34:31
longer, it will take less effort.
34:33
You will feel like you're actually using muscles that are the right muscles to use.
34:37
And this brings us to the whole transition question.
34:40
So the umbrella comment that I can make when you're talking about
34:44
transitioning to natural movement.
34:45
'cause again, that's what we're talking about.
34:47
Not about footwear.
34:48
It's about doing what's natural is that you wanna think of
34:50
it like going to the gym.
34:52
If you haven't been to the gym in a long time, like if you haven't been to the
34:54
gym in a year, or if you've never been, you're gonna go back to, or start with an
34:59
embarrassingly small amount of weight for an embarrassingly small number of reps for
35:05
one set, And then you're gonna go home.
35:08
And the next day you're gonna see how you feel and if you feel like,
35:12
some muscular soreness, 'cause you just worked hard and maybe it'll
35:14
take you 36 hours for it to kick in.
35:16
It is like 48 hours is when it's the worst.
35:18
like I did leg day this morning on a Monday by Wednesday.
35:21
I'm gonna need help getting on and off the toilet.
35:23
so.
35:24
Pam Peeke, MD: go.
35:25
Aging's a bitch.
35:27
Steven Sashen: It's true.
35:27
So, see how you feel the next day and it feels like you just did a little
35:31
too much 'cause you're a little sore.
35:33
Then wait till you feel good, go back and do whatever it was
35:36
again, but do a little less.
35:39
So we like to say you don't wanna do too much too soon, but the joke is the
35:43
only way you know you did too much too soon is when you did too much too soon.
35:47
Pam Peeke, MD: so if, someone were to buy the zero shoe, like I'm craving the,
35:53
HFS now, I can't even say it without laughing my ass off.
35:56
Now that I know what it really stands for, I thought it was some technical
35:59
term and of course it wasn't.
36:01
should they like, maybe wear it for an hour
36:04
Steven Sashen: Exactly.
36:05
So if you're mostly just standing, give yourself an hour.
36:08
If you're walking, do 20 minutes.
36:09
If you're running like 20 seconds.
36:13
Literally.
36:14
And then for runners in particular, if the next day you don't feel, you
36:17
feel more than sore, if you feel like you did something wrong, then
36:21
you wanna wait till you feel okay.
36:23
And what you want to go back to is you wanna think about a few things.
36:26
You want to think about having your feet land under you.
36:29
The same way we're talking about walking.
36:31
So you don't want to, there's an easy way, to think about doing this.
36:35
Like what you wanna do to move forward is lift your foot off the ground.
36:40
That's it.
36:41
So just like lifting your foot that little bit off the ground
36:43
while you have a tiny forward lean.
36:45
And so you're not trying to kick your foot out in front of you.
36:47
And I want you to run like crazy slow, embarrassingly slow.
36:52
Looks like you could be walking much faster.
36:54
'cause you could.
36:55
if for example, you lifted your, I'll start the same way.
36:58
You have your right foot on the ground, you lift your left.
37:00
This time enough off the ground so that if you can relax your foot,
37:03
your toe is about an inch off the ground, And then This is gonna sound
37:07
counterintuitive and impossible while standing in place, not running in place.
37:11
Lift your right foot off the ground and you're gonna go, how
37:14
can I lift it off the ground?
37:14
It's the thing that's balancing me.
37:16
It's like, trust me, you can, And what'll happen is you will naturally
37:19
end up landing on your left foot, on the ball of your foot or midfoot.
37:23
Pam Peeke, MD: here's my little story.
37:24
So I was preparing for my last thank you, God.
37:27
Um, my last marathon, which was the Boston.
37:31
And that was, so I was training in 20, 11 and into 2012.
37:37
'cause as you know, Boston's in, you know, a little later in the spring, and, I can
37:42
remember exactly, it was November of 2011.
37:44
Now there was a company that was in existence then.
37:49
I'm not sure it's in existence anymore.
37:51
it was pushing out the, sort of barefoot running thing and you know, it was like
37:56
a thing then So, it was a while ago, and all of us looked at each other.
38:01
No one had your level of knowledge and no one was, you know, advising.
38:07
they were instead opining based upon God knows what.
38:11
and I, stupidly bought a pair.
38:13
I thought, well, maybe, you know, whatever in the beginning.
38:16
Whoa.
38:17
So I kind of injured my, right foot and, that did not,
38:22
Steven Sashen: what kind of injury?
38:23
Pam Peeke, MD: yeah, it was my fifth metatarsal.
38:25
Steven Sashen: got it.
38:26
Perfect.
38:27
Pam Peeke, MD: Right.
38:27
And so, I immediately said, You know, I, went to my coach And we were fine.
38:33
I mean, I eventually got right back into the training and stuff and,
38:37
you know, I just didn't understand.
38:39
And of course, what did I do right?
38:41
I had already been running.
38:43
You know, and I just slapped the suckers on and I just ran
38:48
and nobody said, ease into it
38:50
and take 20 minutes and do this kind of thing.
38:53
No one said a word.
38:55
Steven Sashen: No, no, no.
38:55
In those early days, look, let's back up.
38:58
What footwear companies and many other companies have convinced us of,
39:02
especially here in the United States And in the West, and This is spreading,
39:05
is all you need to do is get the right product and everything else is fine.
39:09
You don't need to change.
39:10
It's all about this magical product.
39:12
So if you've been running in a.
39:14
Traditional running shoe, especially if you've been told you're supposed
39:17
to land in your heel And then roll forward, et cetera, and you want
39:20
your stride way out in front of you.
39:21
Which, if you look at any Olympic runner, that's not how they run.
39:23
Their stride is mostly behind them.
39:25
They're landing with their feet underneath them really well.
39:28
but we've been given this story that all you need is the right shoe, and
39:30
that's the way the shoes are advertised.
39:31
It's our new amazing cushioning.
39:33
Never do they say sorry about that shit we've been selling
39:35
for the last five years.
39:36
It's always some new and amazing thing
39:38
Pam Peeke, MD: But what are these?
39:39
Olympians wearing.
39:40
I keep
39:40
seeing
39:41
Steven Sashen: depends.
39:41
Pam Peeke, MD: we now have a super shoe
39:43
and you know, you'll fly
39:45
Steven Sashen: It depends.
39:46
First of all, who gives a shit?
39:47
And I'll tell you why.
39:49
Other than you, other than you and even you, I'll say this, when someone
39:54
says, well, that's the shoe that so And so wore when he ran, you know,
39:56
broke the two hour marathon, I go, okay, are you 105 pound Kenyon?
40:00
Who's gonna run a two hour?
40:02
And they go, no.
40:03
And then what do you care what that guy's wearing has no relevance for you at all?
40:08
The super shoe thing is interesting in a number of ways.
40:11
what they realized is the thing that's, there's two things
40:13
that go, that are going on.
40:14
First of all, it's not the carbon fiber.
40:16
Lemme just do this one really quickly.
40:17
If someone says you, oh, he's got a carbon plate.
40:19
Again, who cares?
40:20
The carbon plate is in there.
40:22
'cause that super thick foam, there's a name for that foam in the industry.
40:25
The name is super critical foam.
40:28
Super critical is a term that came from nuclear physics.
40:31
That means something's about to blow.
40:33
So that foam is really unstable unless you have something in there to keep it
40:37
from just shearing almost instantly.
40:39
It's not a lever, it's not a spring.
40:41
It doesn't propel you forward.
40:43
It's just there to keep the foam from falling apart.
40:45
That's thing one.
40:46
Thing.
40:46
Two, like I mentioned before, foam is tuned to a weight and speed.
40:50
If you are that weight running at that speed, it will be good for you.
40:53
If not, it's not.
40:54
You are not that weight and speed, I guarantee.
40:57
Especially those Olympic level and national level runners.
41:00
There's another part.
41:01
Which is, if somebody showed up at a I'll do this for you.
41:05
Let's imagine for the sake of argument, you line up at a race and someone
41:08
shows up in some radically new shoe and they just crush it that day.
41:13
What are you gonna do tomorrow?
41:15
Pam Peeke, MD: Buy the damn shoe.
41:16
Steven Sashen: Exactly, exactly.
41:18
So there's that component where people are going, oh my God,
41:21
everyone's setting records.
41:23
Well, yeah, but people were setting records before too.
41:26
But what people have realized is one of the things that they have a limit on
41:30
for any, official race is the height.
41:33
It has to be under a certain height because me and a couple other guys came
41:37
to the conclusion that what's happening, that foam in those shoes is better
41:41
than the other crap they've been using.
41:43
it's a little more responsive.
41:44
Nike didn't add where it says it gives you the feeling.
41:47
Of propelling you forward.
41:48
And it does give you that feeling because as your foot is, especially
41:51
if your heel striking and coming off, if as your he's coming off the
41:54
ground, you feel the foam expanding and it kind of taps you in the heel.
41:58
But of course it's not touching the ground.
41:59
So, it's not doing anything.
42:00
It feels like it's doing something, it's not.
42:03
so the height And the fact that.
42:06
your cadence hasn't changed.
42:08
So speed is steps per minute, cadence times stride length.
42:12
So if your steps per minute don't change, the only way you get faster
42:15
is with a bigger stride length.
42:17
How do you have a bigger stride length?
42:18
Get slightly higher off the ground.
42:20
Now there's a problem with getting slightly higher off the ground.
42:24
You become unbalanced.
42:26
The higher you get off the ground, the less balance you have.
42:28
And so the preponderance of ankle sprains, wrist breaks and clavicle
42:33
breaks from people wearing these shoes.
42:35
the roof,
42:36
Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, so that basically answers my question, and I think you've
42:40
really clarified so much of this in a.
42:43
Way.
42:43
So, you know, one of the things, I've just needless to say I've
42:47
learned so much right now.
42:49
It's insane.
42:50
I could sit here forever with you.
42:51
so I'm going to w a repeat offender, which means that you'll,
42:56
you'll be back again and again.
42:59
No, no, seriously, because people, you know, it's gonna
43:02
be spring soon people, huh?
43:04
I think I'm gonna run, I'm like, ah, you better, you put some thought
43:07
into this so you totally understand.
43:10
And what's really going on here?
43:13
I kind of learned through the school of hard knocks.
43:16
'cause honestly we didn't have a lot of the science as I was
43:20
coming through the system.
43:22
And a lot of people are kind of, you know, do it yourself.
43:25
They go, I don't know.
43:25
I like what she's wearing and she looks good when she's running
43:29
and I think I'm gonna do that.
43:30
It's like, whoa, wait a minute.
43:32
and I highly recommend.
43:34
That you look up the YouTube.
43:37
that features, Steven Sachin because it is absolutely fabulous.
43:43
just watching him go through the whole walking thing.
43:47
What it also reminds me of is.
43:49
When I, kind of pivoted from marathon to triathlon, we always say with
43:55
triathlon, Those are the people with a DD or something because it's like,
43:58
oh my god, You know, I can't really concentrate on the on the swim so long.
44:02
This is like boring.
44:03
Oh, oh, biking, okay, we do that And then I'm bored and oh my God.
44:07
Then there's running.
44:08
And so, you know, we're always laughing about that.
44:11
But when I pivoted over, You know, I had no problem with the bike and very strong
44:15
legs and all the rest of it, and obviously I'd been running, but the swim, I've
44:20
always been a good swimmer, but I didn't realize that in the century between my
44:26
actually having done some decent laps And then finally going back into going
44:33
and doing masters, that the technique had changed and oh my God, I'm gonna
44:38
tell you right now, it took me five.
44:41
Months to learn to do the glide.
44:44
Steven Sashen: but here's the kick.
44:45
the technique never changed.
44:47
It's just that the people who were doing it naturally were the ones who were
44:50
winning all the competitions and doing
44:51
Pam Peeke, MD: you're absolutely correct on that
44:53
Steven Sashen: it just never made it down to the people who needed it.
44:57
Pam Peeke, MD: And
44:57
we were, we were doing the windmill, you know, it was like, You know, you're round
45:01
and round and, and you look like you're flailing in the middle of the ocean,
45:05
and it's, it's really not a great look.
45:07
so instead.
45:09
what you learn is to do the glide and you have to move your body differently and,
45:14
and you're becoming one with the water.
45:16
The first-time I tried it, I mean, I cursed like a sailor.
45:20
I was like, This is gonna kill me.
45:22
And it took me five months of practice, practice until that became my default.
45:29
So what I'm telling you.
45:31
Is that, when you're looking, to switch over to consider
45:38
experimenting with the zero shoes.
45:41
by the way, the zero is spelled as, it's an XERO, not a Z.
45:47
It's an XERO shoes.
45:49
Um.
45:49
Then, you know, be patient because your, your body's like, okay, well,
45:55
excuse me, what are you doing?
45:56
I've been doing one thing all this time, and now we're gonna do this.
46:00
So
46:00
Steven Sashen: Well, let me, lemme say a couple things about that.
46:02
First of all, when people say, well, how long is it gonna take?
46:05
I go, I don't know.
46:06
I don't know who you are.
46:08
So some people, they literally, from not letting their brain
46:11
feel things in their feet.
46:13
Their brain has literally changed shape.
46:15
It is dedifferentiated And so it's just not receiving information because if your
46:20
brain didn't, wasn't getting it, it's like why waste the energy waiting for it?
46:22
And it literally changes shape.
46:24
So those people, I say, you just need to start walking on some unpleasant surfaces.
46:28
Not unpleasant, unpleasant, just, you know, stimulating so that your
46:31
brain starts to wake up again.
46:33
Those neural circuits start to refire and your brain literally
46:35
changes back to the right shape.
46:37
Some people.
46:38
they just don't have great proprioceptive skills.
46:41
So if I say put your arm peril to the ground, they'll be pointing
46:43
towards the ceiling or toward the floor and not know the difference.
46:46
my favorite version of That is someone who swears they don't overstride, they
46:49
don't reach out with their foot in front of them, and I go, send me a video.
46:52
And there's the video of them overstriding.
46:53
And I literally had one guy say to me as we looked at the video together.
46:57
Yeah.
46:57
But I don't do that.
46:58
Dude.
46:59
It's a video of you that you
47:00
Pam Peeke, MD: I know.
47:01
Well, you,
47:02
know it.
47:02
It's that whole proprioception thing in a big way.
47:05
But again, like I said to everyone, just go over and check out the YouTubes
47:12
with Steven ASHRM And that spell.
47:15
S-A-S-H-E-N please go to his website, which is satchin.com.
47:23
Does
47:23
Steven Sashen: Don't go there.
47:24
Go to
47:24
Pam Peeke, MD: No.
47:25
Steven Sashen: Now, my personal, my personal, website
47:27
is just a, is just there.
47:29
I don't know why
47:30
Pam Peeke, MD: well, no.
47:31
I thought it was kind of interesting,
47:32
but you know for
47:33
sure.
47:34
Steven Sashen: changed it in like 10 years,
47:36
Pam Peeke, MD: Okay.
47:36
Which makes it even more interesting.
47:38
So, This is a little history lesson, so, please, please, please go to zero shoes,
47:44
that's XERO shoes and check out, uh.
47:49
That, women's HFS and look at the colors on this sucker.
47:55
It, comes in three different things, but I mean, two of them are like super
47:59
colorful and get your little mitts off it.
48:01
'cause I need to desperately find where the heck this thing is.
48:05
Alright, listen, we gotta wrap it up.
48:07
I could sit here forever.
48:08
I told you you're repeat.
48:10
offender.
48:11
Steven, I can't thank you enough for being on the Herb Podcast.
48:15
This has been a boatload of fun.
48:16
Steven Sashen: Oh no.
48:17
My pleasure.
48:17
I'm looking forward to what's next.
48:19
Pam Peeke, MD: All right, And then I wanna thank my sponsor, solar Array, vitamins,
48:23
minerals and Herbs, rooted in nature And the new Her Life Stages products.
48:28
Scope it all out@solararray.com.
48:32
That's S-O-L-A-R-A y.com.
48:35
Take a moment to leave us a review, because guess what?
48:38
We just hang out and wait to hear from you.
48:40
That's what we do in life.
48:42
Now for everyone out there, this has been a production of
48:44
podcast health and remember, your time in this world is limited.
48:50
We all know that reality check, but the things you can do with that
48:54
time, like checking out the barefoot walking are not So get on out there.
49:00
Seize the day, carp a DM, and carpe your feet too while you're at it.
49:05
Thanks for listening, everyone.