Latest / Shouty Brain / #5: Lisa Kelly
Transcript
- Trevor Holland: Hello, welcome to episode five of Shouty Brain with me, Trevor Holland. Quick question. How fucking hard is it to record a podcast and actually make it sound normal? How many times am I gonna have to fucking do this and it go tits up and I don't know what to do about it and can't do anything about it because it's already happened and once again I'm not a time traveller because for fuck's sake, I've just gone through to edit this episode and I sound mental. And not even in the way that we all know I am. I come across like this all the way through the episode and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. I'm having a fucking nightmare with the platform I'm using and I'm having a crisis with it. I wanted to just take my laptop, chuck it out the window, fully yeet it out of existence into the void, but I can't do that because I have commitments and I've decided to make a podcast and this is a really good episode, really good conversation. And I've just wanted to quit the whole thing and and move to Ecuador. But I can't. I've got to do it. So you're gonna get it. You're gonna get the episode. It sounds like dog shit from my side once again. But my guest this week, Lisa Kelly, wonderful guest, she sounds pristine as fuck. Of course she does. I sound like horse shit. So you're gonna have to just listen to it, I guess, and and try to try to enjoy it and tolerate it. I think at some point, maybe two thirds through the episode, my voice starts to sound normal. I have no idea. I like I've said before, I'm not a complete Luddite, not a complete one, but I cannot make head nor tail of this. I cannot do it. so either it's gonna require some significant changes or it's gonna continue to be this kind of lucky dip of quality each time. It is what it is. But this week, my guest, as I mentioned, is Lisa Kelly, a fantastic guest from the United States of America. she was recently diagnosed with autism about a month ago at the age of 50, which is similar to my own experience, having only been diagnosed about a month ago myself, but being eight years her junior, but that's not relevant to this conversation. But she's a really, really interesting person, really great conversation. It did get a little bit emotional at points, but I think it was an important conversation to have around grief and and loss, around, you know, the the lost time element of over late diagnosis. so please enjoy Lisa. Once again, please just try to tolerate the horror show that is my audio and you know, just sympathize with the fact that I'm a Poor, lowly, idiotic, middle aged man. He doesn't know his ass from his elbow from a technical point of view. Enjoy! Heysa? Welcome to Shouty Train. Thank you very much for coming on to see me. Lisa Kelly: Thank you for inviting me. Trevor Holland: You're welcome. So how how are you doing today? Lisa Kelly: Very good, very good. A little little nervous to be on my first podcast, but I'm so happy to be here. Trevor Holland: Well, y y you y it could be any more fortuitous with you 'cause you've come onto a podcast that has very few listeners. So you're fine. so Lisa, I stumbled across your your profile on Instagram and one thing that immediately captured my attention was the fact that you're very recently diagnosed with autism. At at the age of fifty. Lisa Kelly: Quite. the Yes, yes, I turned fifty in May and got diagnosed in June. And it's been d just about a month since my official diagnosis. Trevor Holland: And I think that's what that's that's what interested me the most because I was diagnosed around the same time. and we'll get into it in a minute, but that's been quite the journey for me over the last month or so. so I think what I'd like to to start off with seeing is you know, you've you've reached the age of of fifty not knowing what it is that's different about you. You weren't able to define it and now you are able to define it. So I wanna know a little bit about what led you to seeking out the diagnosis at this stage in your life, if you don't mind. Lisa Kelly: Yeah, of course. So I mean, my entire life I always knew something was different, but I I think just the the past year leading up to turning fifty was very reflective of my life and how much I had struggled thus far and just kind of thought that I I need to figure this out. I don't want to continue another 30, 40, if I'm lucky, another 50 years. just struggling so hard and for me the not knowing why I struggled so hard was was almost as bad as the struggle itself and I just having been diagnosed with depression in my twenties and then panic disorder and anxiety like between my 30s and 40s I I just wanted answers because to me in my gut I knew there was something more to the story that I was missing. and I again I think it was just being middle-aged and and about to turn 50 and like I I finally want answers and that was it. I just I had had enough and I was determined to find what I I knew there was a missing puzzle piece somewhere and I needed to find that and it kind of like on the first try I even think I fought, not fought, but I I was adamant that I can't be autistic because I think everybody sees me as so normal. And even though I have always felt on the inside, I knew something wasn't normal. so it was just it was It it was I also thought I I've never officially had been diagnosed with OCD, but I have such rigid routines and behaviors that I I have to do the same way every single day. and I mistook that for OCD. so when when the therapist that diagnosed me was like, No, that's not OCD, I was like, Are you sure? And here I'm telling the expert, like, no, but OCD is very fear-based and very if I if I don't do this routine or behavior, something horrible will happen. I don't have that at all. for me, it's everything is regulating my nervous system. I need that routine or predictability, or I I'm not fearful. I just do not feel regulated. I cannot relax. I cannot move on to another task until that routine is done. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Absolutely. So in terms of where the you know, the the idea that you may be autistic, where did that come from? Did that come from your own research or did it come from maybe where your therapist was leading the conversation? How did that come about actually being assessed for autism? Lisa Kelly: so I actually worked for a nonprofit doing like human resources work and and payroll and they took care of people with special needs and a lot of those people had autism and and by default working there I kind of just learned some more general information about autism and It and just with it becoming more available, like on the internet and being on Instagram and in my research of trying to fix, thinking I could fix myself when I thought it was anxiety and panic disorder and depression, I thought, man, if I if I can figure out where this is coming from, why I have this, I can make it go away. I did not know it was autism at the time and that I was autistic, and there is no making it go away. but it it it was it there was a lot of like just readily more information become available and then you know if you click on one video about say autism now you get a hundred more and and every time I was like wow I really relate to that that happens to me my god like it was Reading a book about myself and I and I thought, is this is this the piece I've been missing? Is this it? Is it could I be autistic after 50 years of struggling through life? Could it be this simple answer? And then and then with autism, even thinking like, it can't be that simple. And then I started researching autism to death for months and months, and I was I I almost didn't want to believe it because I was like, it couldn't have been that simple this whole time, but but it all just made The the simplicity of it is what made sense, is what brought everything together. It every single piece, the anxiety piece, the depression piece, the you know, what I mistook for OCD, the need for rigid routines and behaviors piece, it like autism just it's like the glue that that put all those pieces together. Trevor Holland: So it was your it was your thinking, it was your idea to to to approach am I autist rather than someone else coming up with the idea. So it was so you you y you thought you did some research and you thought, This sounds like me, let's see if that is the case. So that's how that came about, is it? Yeah, okay. Lisa Kelly: Yes. Yes, yeah. And then I so it wasn't yes, I I said let's let's see. I I wanted to I I knew there was there was something more to it. And I I I I saw a therapist in my twenties when I originally got my first diagnosis of depression and that wasn't a good experience for me. So I never ever wanted to go back. I I've never You know, I got diagnosed with panic attacks because a panic attack landed me in an emergency room. I I I thought I was having a stroke because my panic attacks are so severe that I get like paralyzed. so I didn't know what was happening to me and I ended up in an emergency room and it turns out it was a panic attack, and then so it was never like that I I sought out therapists because of just the bad experience I had with them in my 20s. but my my life brought me to those to those steps. so when when it came to wanting to know if I had autism, I I I did a lot of research again, like months of research. and you know it's very difficult to to find anybody that will diagnose you with autism when when you're as old as I am. When you get a little older, you know there's there's not really a specialty, if you will, for late diagnosed autism or ADHD. so I I sought somebody out and and luckily they they were extremely kind and made me feel comfortable and They were very helpful because again, I I almost didn't want to believe I was autistic. I I thought that there was gonna be some other label that they would they would give me, whether that was maybe like I'm bipolar or something, because I I can go from one extreme to the next in like a blink of an eye. You probably know you you're fine one minute, one wrong smell, noise. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Lisa Kelly: One extra conversation in the room, what anything, any little thing, and you're like that battery, someone flips the switch off and you're done. So it again, like autism looks like so many different things, but Trevor Holland: Mm. Lisa Kelly: And and you know it's not just one thing, it's not just two of those things. That's not what makes up. You have to have all of the things to to meet the autism criteria. And I have all of those things and then some. Trevor Holland: I think that's one of the biggest tragedies about it is is the fact that depending on your depending on your on on your care needs it's so difficult to identify autism people with it being such a such a spectrum of of of of things that some people find more difficult than others and because of how good we are at masking. It's it's it's a talent that I didn't know I had. Lisa Kelly: Yes, yeah, I'm still learning what what masking even is. And I I definitely know I do it. That was a big thing too this last year, reflecting leading up to 50 is realizing I like imagine being 50 years old and and looking back and realizing you don't really know who you are because you've been pretending to be a million other people, which you know, I was kind of thinking the other day that What a beautiful thing to try to look at it as. There's so many people that I admire, whether it's like somebody famous, whether it's just a random person I come across online that I just admire for any reason. And just to have like a mixture of a bunch of people's personalities that you admire that you won't look up to but it but I mean that's beautiful but it's it's not your own so it's like coming into 50 and realizing I don't know who I am because I've just been you're almost like a chameleon when you're autistic because you you figure out with this group of people or with this person I Trevor Holland: Yeah. Lisa Kelly: you just adopt to their personality. If you're with a different group of people, you kind of adopt to them. Like it's it's this constant chess game of where do I fit in? And you never think, well let me figure out who I am and let people fit in with me. Like I never had that mentality. I was always like the people pleaser, like I'm just gonna act like this person, so I fit in here, but no, then I'm gonna go over here and try and fit in over here. And and I almost like anybody that would accept me, I would go. Trevor Holland: Right. Lisa Kelly: And sometimes that was to my detriment because, especially when I was a teenager and maybe in my early 20s, I didn't come across or get accepted by the most honorable or best type of people. Because again, I think being autistic, it's easy for people to also take advantage of you. Because it there is this certain level of almost being naive with it. Trevor Holland: Mm. Mm. Lisa Kelly: if that makes sense. So I I I very easily could have and and did kind of a couple times get myself into some trouble just trying to fit in with not the best group of people. But luckily I I got older and I learned my way out of that. but that's another thing is struggling with friendships. When you I've never really had a lot of friends. I've never really, you know, again not knowing who you are or Trevor Holland: Yeah. Lisa Kelly: What your personality is, because you're always trying to be someone different. I always tried to dress like I I didn't even know what my own style was, like trying to dress like other people, look like other people, try to dress like my peers. You know, at 50 years old, I think a lot of people expect you to look a certain way at 50. But I feel like this childlike wonder inside of me and I wanna dress like almost child like like fun and And it's it's almost like you're too old. You get a lot of like, you're too old for that, you're too old to be dressing like that, you're too old to be acting like that, you're too you know, especially at 50. But I have this like whimsical just you know, like I still in my brain wish I was eight years old and could play with dolls, and and people wouldn't find that odd at my age, but they definitely would. Trevor Holland: Mm. Yeah, it's interesting about friends. I've I've found I don't have any difficulty making friends at all. I have lots of difficulty having them, but not getting them. I can get I can make friends with people quite easily. I I mean when I was a kid you would say certainly that I was shy. Actually Lisa Kelly: Hm. Trevor Holland: definitely shut to the point of the level of introversion w was was actually Yeah, I I remember just just just just spending so much time just trying to build up the courage to walk up to the counter in a shop to to speak to the person behind the counter to ask for some stamps or whatever it was. I would I would do laps of the shop for half an hour, forty five minutes, just looking suspicious as hell doing it. just so I could say, Could I have some stamps please? We're actually they're thinking how much of my shit are these peop is this guy stealing at the moment? but but so so but but f somehow I I would I would gravitate towards I never had big groups of friends I'd normally have one or two main friends. I'd gravitate towards one person or two people and we would get on like a house on fire and we'd become BFF sort Lisa Kelly: Yes, my god, yes. Yep. Trevor Holland: almost immediately. but then keeping the momentum going in those relationships became more challenging. Once I got out of junior school and went into high school, it became more difficult and more complicated because there tended to be more groups of people rather than this is my friend. It's like this is my friend from this group, this is my friend from that group. but but now in my forties I mentioned it on in my first episode, I think. I I've got people that I would consider friends and in fact the first two guests I had on the podcast were w were two people I would say are my friends. Both neurodiverse, so both very understanding of the fact that we're never gonna talk to each other, but we're still friends. but my best friend who whom I've been best friends with since I was twelve years old, so thirty years, we were living in each other's pockets for years and years and years, but I found it more and more difficult to s I I felt like I was spreading myself too thin to right. So because the more as as you grew up the more the more responsibilities came about, the less energy you had for your friends. Right? So this friend of mine, Douglas is his name I haven't seen him face to face in over a decade. In the time that I haven't seen him, he has had several children, and at this point I don't know how many, because I've never met any of them. The last time I spoke to him on the phone, I was drunk out of my mind, and it was about three years ago. Other than that, we send each other a text every few months. And that's as far as our friendship goes. And part of me is heartbroken by that because I don't think he's ever gonna really understand. that that has no bearing on how much I love him at all. It just is the level that I'm capable of doing 'cause I've I've got my life here, I've got my wife, I've got my cat, I've got my job, I've got all this stuff which I love. And as much as it pains me to say it, I don't have enough capacity to also hang out with friends. I just can't. If I do that and something else has got to go. Lisa Kelly: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. A hundred million percent. It's it's I always say like being autistic is a major contradiction. Like I can remember in high school wanting to be so popular, but not having the the mental capacity of like you said, more than one or two friends at a time. and and then the Trevor Holland: And I'm not letting go of anything else. Do you feel the same? Lisa Kelly: The not knowing almost how to like socialize with them, the pr the pressure, the the having to make plans is a lot. Like there's so people just think, it's a friendship. It's effortless. It but nothing, nothing to an autistic person is effortless. Every, even the most Trevor Holland: Mm. Lisa Kelly: Minor day-to-day details take so much effort for us. So, like you said, trying to maintain friendships, and again, you hit a really important point, is you know, as you get more and more responsibilities, as you get older. it it becomes harder because you do you have less energy every day-to-day thing takes so much energy so like just it it it sounds like you might be like me like you work a full time job so that that's almost all I can handle in a week so you know I literally have one friend that that I I mean I have a lot of acquaintances I have a lot of people that you know I I I give love to from afar that I I do have so many people in my life that I love. But it is a shame that I don't have the capacity or energy to keep up with all of those those people or those things. but yeah, so I I definitely feel the same way for like trying to maintain friendships or even like my family, like my family has learned that. you know, not to overwhelm me, like I they cannot call me and be like, hey, we're going out in a half an hour. Do you want to come meet us? I will spiral out and crash out. And it's because that that feeling of like, my God, yes, of course, I love my family. I want to go. But Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Lisa Kelly: I need like two weeks to a month to plan if you want you expect me to do something. There was this meme I came across one time that said, like, you know, I like to do nothing. So if you expect me to do something, I need six months in advance or anything. And I'm like, an autistic person must have came up with that meme because yes, like I need, there is nothing I can do. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lisa Kelly: like by the seat of my pants. I need planning. I need to know the the when, what, why, how before I do anything. And that might be different for somebody with ADHD or that has both such as yourself, because from my understanding, like the ADHD side, which I don't think I have at all, is that is the like I'll fly by the seat of my pants side. And that must butt heads with your I need planning side, right? Like how I That to me is interesting. I I struggle enough with just autism and not having that other half fighting with it. So that must be unreal. Trevor Holland: It yeah, yeah. It it's so hard to explain, it's hard to even understand for myself, but it really is too con too battling hard of me who want different things. And sometimes the things that they want can Lisa Kelly: Mm. Trevor Holland: be symbiotic. They can work together on on certain things, like people with ADHD and people with autism can have sensitivities to certain sensory input. So there are there's a Venn diagram and there is lots crossover, but there are some diametrically opposed traits that should not coexist in the same brain. And I never know whether I'm coming or going. And I am so tired. Lisa, I'm so tired. But but yeah, so the thing the thing that that has always broken my heart a little bit, speaking about friends a bit more is I've lost friends more than I can count. And it's a contradiction and it's maybe a little bit difficult to explain, but I loved being invited to things. I so often agreed to go to them and then would a as w people like us tend to do, it gets closer and closer to the reality of that thing, and then you find a you find a way to wriggle out of it somehow. But I found myself doing that so much that people stopped inviting me. And when people stopped inviting me, I was really pissed off that I was no longer being invited. But then I would get an invite and I'd be like, fucking leave me alone. So Lisa Kelly: Like start Answering a question and my brain trails off into like something completely different. But when I was saying how, like, yeah, my mom and brother, like my family has learned not to invite me to things last minute, it's the same thing in that, but so like they have learned over time, it my goodness, like if I invite her and she hasn't had enough notice, it's gonna upset her. And it is because of that contradiction of wanting to to go and join in and feel like you're included, but not having the capacity or enough. time to mentally prepare to do that thing. So now it is, it's it's when I find out that my brother and mother and they did something without me, it it it does kind of break my heart. I'm like why didn't I get invited? And then I'm like, yeah, because my mom knows that if she invited me I'd crash out because so it's like it's I Trevor Holland: feel like I feel like there needs to be a way, an acceptable way of announcing it. So if if if the day comes where you're like I feel ready to be invited to something today, so you tell the world on on Instagram or Facebook or you'll you'll text everyone in your phone book to say I am open for invitations today, but then a list of conditions of Lisa Kelly: Right. Yes. Yeah. Trevor Holland: I'll I'll think about it if conditions A through to Z or Z are met and you give me an opportunity to to do some comprehensive research or ideally send me a PowerPoint presentation about the place you want to go to. and then I'll think about it. But there's still a chance I won't. But as things stand right now, I'm I'd be okay with someone inviting me somewhere. Lisa Kelly: Right. Right. Yes, yes. my god, yeah. We need like a yeah, like a like a notification setting of like I am open to plans today or something. Yeah, but with like certain, yeah, but then there would it depends on what those plans are. It depends on how long we're gonna be out. Is it like my so I've been in a about a 15-year relationship myself, and and Trevor Holland: Yeah. Lisa Kelly: you know, my boyfriend like would loves to go on like drives and would just love to hop in a car and go just drive around endlessly. I can't do that. I there have been times where I will I will have a full blown panic attack just trying to go out and have a lovely day because I'm like, well where are we going? Where are we stopping? Are like if I don't know every single detain detail of like how I can't just go out willy-dilly. Like I need to know everything. And that's, you know, I I it I feel like it must be difficult because he he's not neurodivergent. so Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Lisa Kelly: You know, I feel bad. I think it must be really difficult for him to be with somebody like me that that can't you know, be what's the word I'm looking for? Like spontaneous. There there is no spontaneity i in in this human form whatsoever. I need to know everything and and I think that's sad. Like my family, it's it's a huge thing in our family where like when it's big birthdays, like 40th, 50th, anything like that, they they do huge surprise parties. And my mom was like, we cannot do a surprise party for Lisa, she'll have a panic attack. Like if I walked into a room full of people, No, nope, can't do that. so it's it's there is like a lot like there's a lot of like people can't treat you the same way as they would everybody else. Trevor Holland: Yeah. I think it's i I think this might be a an ADHD combination thing as well. But I I I I I f I general generally feel that I am open to experiences. I I feel like I'm quite although I wouldn't go as far as say adventurous, but I am open to experiencing n new things. But what I think neurotypical people don't appreciate is The reason why we ask so many questions is because of how draining the wrong environment will be. and how difficult be in it will be. So y y you shouldn't have to ask is the place you know, i for a neurotypical person, is the place we're going to gonna make you take your shoes off at the door and is the floor gonna be covered in broken glass? Because That is potentially the extent of how uncomfortable it could be for us. So if you're thinking about taking me to a restaurant or going to a restaurant, I'm not just gonna want to know about the menu. I'm gonna know about the route to the table from the entrance. I'm gonna need to know whether I'm gonna need to awkwardly shuffle past people who are sitting eating. I'm gonna need to know where the toilets are, I'm gonna need to know how far away the kitchen is and whether it's likely to be quite noisy. I'm gonna need to know how what sort of what sort of warmth the lights are and whether there's any chance they're gonna be fluorescent because I might be able hear them. and I also need to know what the seats are made of. Are they gonna be cooned? Are they gonna be hard wood? Are they gonna have armrests or I'm gonna am I gonna be able to hang a jacket over the back of it or is it gonna be a slightly different shape? Is it gonna be like a booth arrangement where I've got to work out what part of the booth I want to be in. What's the floor made of? Is it squeaky? Is it s is it is it shiny? Is it too shiny or not shiny enough? does the table have a chance where it's gonna slightly wobble if you lean on it the wrong way? I need to know all of that that so that however much information they give you about a place, it's never enough information. Lisa Kelly: Yes. No, no, and and and that's the thing is that like for I I always hate to say like normal people because is anybody ever really normal? But like imagine just somebody being like, hey, you want to go to dinner? And that person doesn't have any thought other than, yeah, dinner sounds nice. Like for for us, like you said, it's this process of like Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Lisa Kelly: you know, I I don't know, for me being a girl, even before thinking about going to that restaurant for that analogy, it's like, my God, what am I gonna wear? What you know, what makeup am I gonna do? What it what what colors is this? What's that what bag am I gonna bring? What like the like even before that then where's the parking gonna be? How am I am I gonna be able to find it? Is it that like the pro the instant process of that it it's crazy and you know you might with having autism too like and that sense for routine it's like talking about the the dinner thing there are i i have this big elaborate routine after work and then i have to cook dinner and then i clean up after dinner and this and that and for a normal person you know imagine coming home from work at the end of a long day And your partner being like, or you you come home from work and your wife is like, hey Trevor, you know, let's go out for a nice dinner tonight. You just worked hard all day, let's go out. Doesn't that sound nice? And you won't have to clean the kitchen, you won't have to cook. To a normal person, that sounds fantastic. If I come home from work and my boyfriend is like, hey babe, let's go out for dinner tonight. Instant like panic and and almost like anger. Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Lisa Kelly: Not angry, not angry at the suggestion, but like just almost like, how d what do you mean? I gotta do my routine. I I've been expecting for eight hours while I was at work. I was gonna come home, I was gonna feed the dogs, I was gonna put on my bathrobe, get into my pajamas, get comfy, watch TV, do. And if that was my plan all day long. Nope. Like if you suggest anything outside of that, it it's like instant panic. And again, that like anger. And and then and and it it's it's so rigid that you can't do anything outside of the ordinary if if you weren't planned. And and again, I just That's gotta be tough because then he I think he feels like, did I just do something wrong by trying to like suggest a very nice, you know, like relaxing dinner out? And it's it's it's so hard to explain to them that Trevor Holland: Yeah, because it's Lisa Kelly: My my brain just can't shift like that. If I was in like I would have needed to know three days ago that you planned for us to go out to dinner tonight after work. Like I can't it's frustrating. It's very frustrating, but that's what I'm learning with my diagnosis is Like before I would be like, why am I like that? What like that doesn't make sense. Yes, of course I want to go out for a nice dinner, but why is my body saying no, no, you can't go out to dinner? but now I understand. So it's it's the diagnosis has done a lot of good for me and like now I completely understand because it's I'm not gonna get to do my routine now. Maybe hey, if I give you 20 minutes to do your routine. Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Mm. Lisa Kelly: maybe we can go out to dinner after that. How does that you know, there there is a level of I think like compromise, especially when you have a partner or two that maybe can be done. but but it it's just it's hard. It's hard when it is something within you that can't be fixed. It's it's just who you are. I can't do last minute plans like that. And that's just something that I'm learning to accept about myself. Where before diagnosis I would almost hate myself and be like, Why? Why is why are you like this? And now I get it. Trevor Holland: Think that that comes with being on the on the part of the spectrum that we're on and and you know, I don't know you very well but I feel like we may be on a a similar part of it in the sense that we are very self aware and you know, I don't wanna speak ill of anybody else, but i there there may be people on other parts of the spectrum higher care with higher care needs who who maybe don't see another way. they're so just that their their difficulties are so all encompassing that they don't understand that there even is an alternative way of thinking. Lisa Kelly: I I know how yeah, there it there is a certain level of of privilege, I think, when like for me I'm level one autistic. I I you know don't have very many care needs from the outside world and I I look at that as a as a blessing and a privilege that, you know, I bec because I don't have a lot of those needs from the outside world and I I can care for myself and live on on my own. I I have this level of freedom that not every autistic person has to be able to do that. but On the other hand, that that that does come with the price, you know, that comes with the price that you know I I would say f you know four to five nights a week. I I I have full blown meltdowns and and You know that that's the price I pay for for having that that freedom, if you will, I guess. Like, yes, I can I can get on and and mask long enough to get through a a job and do a good job and and actually s even somewhat excel at a career. but that that comes at a cost of you know, by the time I get home from work, if my boyfriend even asks me a question, like, hey babe, what do you want for dinner? that could cause A complete meltdown because I am at my limit for the day. Me working that job to give me that freedom is about all I can take, and that's why trying to have the friendships, trying to maintain a relationship, trying to keep up with family outside work is everything else is such a struggle because I I have to. I have to put all that energy into that job that gives me the freedom. Trevor Holland: Hm. Yeah. Yeah. sorry, I'm just trying to remember the thing I was about to say. This is the f first time it's happened today, and it was I think, yeah, it was it's about resentment for me. and it's i I I resent. My now I'm trying not to be too apologetic these days because it's part of my process of my part of my journey. But I I am sometimes arrogant about my own intelligence and whatever, but I resent my own intelligence sometimes, because I have the capacity to analyze such a level. Because I have the capacity to see because because of maybe the masking and lots of mirroring that I did and and just self-defense in terms of how to infiltrate situations and and appear normal. I can see things from every conceivable angle. I'm a diplomat you know people would often accuse me of playing devil's advocate in a conversation because I can always see the other side of the argument. but I resent that about myself sometimes because it complicates my own life to be intelligent. Because I have to think about everything and I have to see things from from a wider POV. And it makes me and this makes me sound horrible, but it makes me jealous of people who have slightly less complex minds, let's say. 'Cause you look at the the the bliss of ignorance sometimes and think that's gotta be quite nice. Just to just just to be completely mindless. I'm not talking about people on on the spectrum, I'm talking about the normies who are stupid. it's like it's got to be n it's gotta be nice. Lisa Kelly: Mm. Right. Yeah. who don't realize there's there's so many more things to like you said like yeah playing devil devil's advocate is a huge is a huge thing like I do think that I'm always trying to look at things from all sides like yeah did you but did you think of this and so and a lot of times people don't like that about you because you you're They they almost think you're trying to change their minds, but it's it's it's not like I it's not that I'm trying to change anybody's mind, but it again it it comes into us like where we we're over processing things. So we do we want to look at things from every angle. We want to research the most minor things to death almost. Trevor Holland: I I've had people in my life who have accused me of not being supportive enough of and I know that this is something that's prevalent in in males as well, about the the f the fixing mentality rather than the just listen listen and and absorb and be there for someone you want to fix and you all have a solution to something. I think it's even worse for me. But but I've had people there was tell Lisa Kelly: Mm. Trevor Holland: a thing that they're upset about. And they might accuse me of being unsupportive when I present an alternative way of thinking about it. But I'm not trying to diminish the way that person's feeling. But what I'm trying to do is is you're justified in what you're feeling. But Have you considered the way this person's feeling and why and the reason they may have done that is because of this. And because I want to keep the peace and I want this person to realise that maybe it's not quite what they thought. Doesn't mean what you're feeling isn't justified. It just means maybe think about the reason but people don't always want to hear that. And the thing is I I get, but I still think I'm right. Lisa Kelly: Right Yes, yeah. Trevor Holland: I still think I'm right. You need to think about things. Yeah. Lisa Kelly: Yes. And we think we're so right too, 'cause keep in mind we probably spent so much time researching that very thing to death if if it's something we had time to, you know, look into and everything. Like everything, even it it it it's so silly, but even something like I'm I'm learning in my trying to unmask and like a big thing for me again, maybe it's 'cause being a woman and and just someone who me be always being into fashion and everything but like trying to find my own sense of style or unmasking and things like that. I like something as simple as wanting to buy a pair of sunglasses. I'll spend like a month researching sunglasses before I can just buy a simple pair of sunglasses. Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's true. Lisa Kelly: put there's so much effort behind everything it's it's in it's insane and and to the outside world no nobody sees that nobody sees you know what the the wheels turning up here Trevor Holland: But I think that that also, you know, reinforces what I was saying about being self-aware because it's not like I don't know. I I I I feel like it's crazy too, the thing that I'm doing. I think the thing that I'm doing is insane. It doesn't change whether I can actually do anything about that. But I know that I am being batshit crazy right now in the way that I'm acting. Lisa Kelly: yes. Yeah. Right. Y yep, come. Yes. Trevor Holland: This is not rational behavior. This is not something that you deserve. As my you know, using my wife for example, you don't deserve someone to be this neurotic about this. I shouldn't be like this, but I am like this and I can't do anything about it and I wish I could. Lisa Kelly: Yeah. Yes. That's like my my nightly routine of that that again that I mistook for many years is O C D like when I get home from work, me having to go through my entire house. and opening kitchen drawers, like making sure all my knives and forks and spoons are still in the same place. Like I that sounds so much like OCD, right? Like I know my inanimate objects have not moved themselves all day long while I was at work, but But my nervous system doesn't feel regulated until I check like my environment, everything needs to be where it belongs in its place. And I need to know that before I can sit and just like relax for the day. And again, it it's with OCD, it comes from a place of fear. Or if I don't open this drawer, my dog's gonna die. Or so like that's OCD, the need for doing it because you have intrusive. Thoughts and that that's OCD. That I don't do that. It's it's my routine, and I need to do that routine every single day when I get home from work, or I just I can't relax. I know nothing horrible is gonna happen, but my nervous system does not Trevor Holland: Yeah. Mm. Lisa Kelly: Physically like I can feel it if I don't open that kitchen drawer to make sure everything's like and it's it is it's a routine and I it's like the whole house. I just have certain things and I have to do it when I go to work too. It's again, I have like a routine when I get to work. I have a little routine when I get home. I have a little routine when I get up. It's and if anything throws me off of that routine, it's just sheer panic and anger. Trevor Holland: all comes down like a house of cards almost immediately. The whole rest of the day is yeah. The whole rest of the day is ruined. Even if it's the first thing you've done, even if it's six AM, first thing you're doing that day in your long list of things doesn't quite go to plan. Everything else is gone. Lisa Kelly: Yes. Yep. Immediately. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yep. yeah. Yep. Pure and utter meltdown mode. Yep. Yep. And and and again, it it's being a fifty year old woman and having meltdowns like a child. It's it's it's so embarrassing. I mean a fortunate enough, like I don't I kind of can hold it those things together long enough through my day where Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Lisa Kelly: Luckily, I I can wait till I get home and I'm almost alone to just completely crash out by myself. Again, that's that's part of I think being that level one autistic of of just It and and I have been in in public situations out in the open where I have not been able to keep my shit together and I just have a complete panic attack or meltdown in public and that is the most humiliating, embarrassing thing in the world. But if it's not something so extreme, if I can hold it in to a point where I get h I can, you know, hold it and Till I get home by myself and kind of melt down in my my own safe environment, then that that's what I do. But you know, it's it's I think a lot of people see the like happy, bubbly, smiling person. And you know, I I I've done a lot like I sometimes wonder if this is a mask, but I think it's just who I am. I I like to be a very smiley and happy, bubbly person, but I think that it's people see that and they they cannot. Even comprehend how many times I come home and I'm crashing out, melting down, panicking. Like nobody would, I don't think, even think that that happens to me. And that's kind of where like the the very like the loneliness of autism comes in is that you kind of feel like you don't want people to see that side of you, but the fact that nobody knows that side of you exists feels so lonely. That's another like autism contradiction of like, I don't want and it's not that I want people to know that to feel sorry or give me empathy, but it just feels like people don't know the real you. It's not about looking for again that sympathy or empathy, but it's just nobody really knows who you are. Because there's so much you have to hold in and suppress that you don't show the real world, that it f it starts to feel very lonely. Trevor Holland: Yeah. It does. I pe the people that don't know me very well assume that I'm one of the most laid back people they've ever met. I've got quite a quite a quite a relaxed way of speaking. that some but some people see it as that. Others who might be a bit more switched on will will think you're quite flat and and considered. You people see me speaking slowly and think that I'm relaxed. Other people might see I I speak slowly because I'm thinking so carefully about the thing I'm about to say. so I think my point is that people think I'm really chilled out. Lisa Kelly: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and they would be shocked to to realise quite how much of my energy is spent thinking and considering and planning and rehearsing. It's it's crazy. Lisa Kelly: Yes. the rehearsing. my god. I don't know about you, but like with it there is a 20 it it never shuts off. I'm always having like practice conversations in my brain. Like it it never stops. Like when I'm at work all day, every day when I leave work, I call my mom and have a conversation with my mom on the car ride home. So when I'm at work, I'm I'm practicing the conversation I'm gonna have with my mom on the car ride home. Then I'm practicing the conversation. What am I gonna talk about my boyfriend with when he gets home from work? Then what a tomorrow at work with gonna be? And next week, and and Trevor asked me to be on his podcast. I gotta start practicing conversations right now for this. And it's like practicing them in the mirror, practicing them when I'm trying to go to bed at night. It's it's never ending. Like there's never not something up here going on. Trevor Holland: Mm. Absolutely, and it's not it it it's not alwa it doesn't end when the conversation has happened. So the thing that you're practicing and rehearsing for, because you very forensic plan the interaction, then the interaction happens, and then you'll spend the rest of your life debriefing yourself about that conversation. Literally the rest of your life. Lisa Kelly: No. There's still conversations from nineteen ninety-three I'm probably trying to debrief in my brain, so Trevor Holland: And Yeah. And there are a million different ways you could have done it better after the fact. Which is frustrating because for someone who's rehearsed as much as you, you would have thought you'd done a better you would have done a better job at than you did. No. Lisa Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. All the rehearsing does no good because as soon as that person is actually in front of you, like d it all goes out the window anyways. Cause cause cause now you're not trying to recall that Brilliant eloquent conversation you had by yourself in your head. Now you're thinking, am I fidgeting? Am I looking at this person in the eyes? How am I looking? Is my shirt okay? Is my hair like then when you're in the conversation, you can't even focus on the conversation. Trevor Holland: No, you have no idea what they've said. And I'm thinking, shit, what's the but then what if they've just told me something really bad? I'm like, you just go just the usual cove, man, yeah. Yeah, that's sh that's crazy. But but but then someone's just told them told them that told us that their dog's been run over, but you're like, I know, I know, right? It's crazy. Lisa Kelly: Smile and nod, smile and nod. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Shit, I haven't listened to a word of that. I have no idea what they've just said. I want to touch on the the aftermath, if we could just swerve slightly because I know we the the aftermath of the diagnosis and I must apologise if this is shown on camera. I'm so hot, I'm sweating a lot and I can't and I can't have my fan on because it's too noisy for the microphone. So Lisa Kelly: Yeah. Yep. Trevor Holland: That's why that's why I'm fidgeting so much, 'cause I'm sweating. But I had quite the unexpected fallout when I had my diagnosis in terms of the kind of roller coaster I spent the next three or four weeks on. Even though I'd spent the last fifteen years of my life being fairly adamant that I was autistic and being frustrated that the professionals didn't see that see it that way. so even though I was fairly sure I was autistic the actual impact it had when I was diagnosed was so much more than I anticipated because I thought, well it's just gonna be a formality of of and all I'm gonna do is feel validated. All I'm gonna do is feel heard and that'll be great. It'll be brilliant. I can close the close the book on that because I will then have the validation or have it in black and white that the thing I thought was the case is the case. I thought that was going to be the beginning and end. But it was a far more nuanced experience than that. What was your experience once you received your diagnosis? As it and it's only been about a month. So so what have you been going through in that period? And where are you now? Lisa Kelly: Yes. the you saying it's been like a roller coaster, it's been like a roller coaster. I mean the the first week was definitely the worst of it. I mean there there was this instant sense of validation and almost relief of like I have known for 30 years that there's been more to this story and that f like finally having having that last puzzle piece that was missing. There there was that. But also there was a lot of of course had had I known 20, 30, 40 years ago how different my life could have been, you know, could I would I would I have more friends? Would feel like I could would have had a more fulf fulfilling life had I n had I known. You know, I there was so many years of struggling and not understanding why. you know, especially especially around the panic disorder, because there was a time in my life I literally was becoming agoraphobic. I could not physically leave my house. That was probably about 10-ish years ago. I just I could I couldn't go anywhere. Not even the places I loved. Like I couldn't even go see my tattoo artist without having a panic attack and that was like my second home, you know? so there was a lot of Man, could could the last 30, 40 years of my life been easier had I had I known sooner? I could have accommodated myself better. I s I don't wanna I don't wanna cry and get choked up, but I spent so many years hating myself for the for the way that I was. Because I didn't understand myself. And and I I took that misunderstanding for hatred of myself. And that was very difficult. There was some very dark times in my life because not because of sadness. Like that's that's another thing with autism. Like you can have the most beautiful life. I've always had people that loved me. I've always had, you know. all these amazing things, a nice life, like in the grand scheme of things, like I've never really had had to, you know, ha have these big worries. Like I've always kind of had a had an I guess like an easy roadmap, if you will, a map laid out for me. And that's the thing, it's like when when from the outside world life looks so easy, but you're at a war with yourself, that's that's hard. You don't understand like a lot of people that you know have panic attack of it's because they've suffered serious traumatic events. And I've been fortunate enough, not you know, I mean I I've lost a parent, I've I've had a miscarriage, but to me though that's nothing that not every single person on this earth Has almost struggled with, right? I've but I I've never had anything out of the ordinary, I guess, like to struggle with. So just, you know, coming from a place of hating myself and not understanding who I was and getting that diagnosis, you know, I'm so grateful now that that I can look back and know that, you know, I I was never broken. There was never really anything wrong with me. But I just to I I struggle with feeling like I could have had that time back and been been a lot kinder to myself for for decades. and and I just having that understanding I could have coped with life better. Maybe I wouldn't have had that period of time when I literally couldn't leave my house. It just It's tough to think that it could be easier, but I also my my mindset is now I'm just gonna look forward. I c I cannot do anything about the past. It it is what it is. And I'm I'm also a little spiritual. So I there is a part of me that if you believe in spirituality, there is a little side of that like you chose this life. You chose to have these struggles. so I do find a little solace in that also trying to think of like I chose this for a reason. I chose to be this person, to be here on earth specifically to have these struggles because my you know, my soul was is trying to to to learn more about the human experience. So, you know, I know that sounds a little woo-woo to some people and everything, but it really helps me put it into s perspective, the diagnosis of of and trying not to dwell on that, that that I chose this. I chose those struggles and everything and and there I try to think there's a purpose for it. And That's it. But but all in all, I think after diagnosis a lot of relief and grief. Trevor Holland: Thank you. I appreciate how honest no on honestly because it's it's it's a word not a word that I wanted to hear, but it's a word that I'm glad I have heard, which is grief. Because it it it's it i it's really Lisa Kelly: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Trevor Holland: gr a a period of grief. and like you I've lost a parent. the only person in my life who is of hu of of massive significance who I lost is my is my father. really. I lost I lost my father Lisa Kelly: me too. That's yeah. Yep. Yep. Trevor Holland: nine nearly nineteen years ago. Lisa Kelly: Wow, he must have been very young my dad was sixty four and it was about four fourteen years ago now. Trevor Holland: And it was a He was fifty three. And there were you know, I I wasn't expecting to talk about this, but it's fine. you know, I I saw it, I watched it happen. And that's an image you never forget. Especially if you're someone like us who are not sure actually we haven't talked about this, but but the level of recall about very small details of a situation that you saw that you witnessed because it was a significant moment. So you remember every single thing about every sensory input of that moment. You you remember what everything looked like, what everything smelled like, you know. but but the reason I brought it up is because that's the only time in my life where I really had to experience real grief and go through those stages of grief that we've all read about. until a month ago, when I went through the very same stages over something intangible. You know, if you're y it feels again, I don't like using the word normal, but sometimes it's the only word you can think of. It feels normal to go through those stages of grief when you've lost someone that you love. But this try and reconcile feel feelings of grief about an abstract concept that was never there in the first place, but you thought was there is very difficult to understand or explain. but but it it really is griefing because it feels self indulgent, but you do mourn for the lost time. Lisa Kelly: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: But at the same time Who knows the direction your life would have gone in had you known 30 years ago that you were autistic, would your life be on the surface, the life you have now, would you be as intelligent as you are now? Because would you have had to struggle through so many things and climb so many mountains and trod through so much mud to get where you are? and and s and fortify yourself and strengthen your resolve. Would you be the person you are now if you'd known before? I would argue may possi possibly not. So would you be in a worse position than you are now? So I think about stuff like that. Like it's it happened a lot with the A D H D diagnosis which I received at twenty eight. I'm forty two now. So I had twenty eight at twenty eight I was diagnosed with a D H D and I had the the same experience then which was all those opportunities I squandered. Imagine what would have happened if I hadn't squandered those opportunities. But If I hadn't wandered all those opportunities, I would not be living where I live, with the wife that I have, with the career that I have, with all of the things that I've got in my life that I've accumulated that I love so much, I wouldn't have any of them. Lisa Kelly: I l I love that outlook. I and I I totally agree there. I I have had the same exact flip side too of thinking like, well, if if I did know earlier, like you said, would you know, because I didn't know, I pushed myself. You know, I I I kind of know now that I have autism that I sh I almost shouldn't be pushing myself, but but back when I thought it was only like panic disorder or anxiety or these other things, I thought, I can push through that panic attack. I can push through this. I can figure that out. I I'll I'll do this and I'll work through that anxiety. And again, that that push is what has made me so successful in life, despite being autistic. so, you know, I I want there's this sense of like would I have almost catered to myself and and For the for this lack of a better term, like babied myself more, had I known or had I not known, I meant to say, and like so because I didn't know got me to where I am now. And and so I I do love that positive like spin on it, instead of like, yeah, had I known Trevor Holland: Right. Lisa Kelly: I I would have understood and I would have been more sensitive with myself, but yeah, or there might not have been that that drive to like, I'm gonna figure this out. Like, I've always been like going back to kind of like school. School was so difficult for me because if it wasn't a subject or anything I wasn't interested in, I couldn't like absorb the the information at all. but I I just I yeah I have to wonder like had I known back then that I was autistic, I w you know, I I probably wouldn't have received, you know, maybe the same education. Like not nothing would be the same. So I d it you I do have to kind of like view it from from that frame as well. And I I like that positive spin that yeah we we we we have to think of it that way. Trevor Holland: Mm. But my at the same time my heart breaks for for my younger self as well, because I was so lost and so alone and I hated myself so much. I was so frustrated with myself. Why can't I get my shit together? Why am I not in a place I society would expect me to be at this stage of my life? I'd if if there's one thing I could change it would be Putting my arm around myself and whispering in my own ear, this is why you do this and it's not your fault and you have no reason to hate yourself for it. Please stop hating yourself. 'Cause it's not going to end anything positive. Because you're so much better than you think you are. And your life is so much harder than you understand. You're you're not lazy. You're not an underachiever. Do you have any idea how much you've achieved in spite of your shortcomings that you don't even know you've got? If you didn't have those shortcomings, my god, you are a superhero. You are doing this stuff. The doing the same stuff that other people are doing. But they're they're ice skating their way through it. You're having to walk through three feet of mud to get to the same destination. Lisa Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes, yeah. And you you you you feel the you know, you you know the mud's there, but it it's like you don't have the right boots to get through the mud. Trevor Holland: You don't you don't know that you don't know that no one else has got the mud. You're like everyone's got this, but I'm I'm finding it harder because I lesser. But you don't realize that you're the only one in the fucking mud. Because everyone else is ice skating. You're like Lisa Kelly: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. But now we know we're in the mud. It doesn't make it any easier, but Trevor Holland: And we can be a bit put we can be a bit kinder to ourselves about it though. We can feel less guilty about it and we can feel a little bit more kind. So I'm going through the mud. It's a bit difficult. Maybe I'll take it a bit slow. I'm not gonna try and rush through this mud to get to the place because you're gonna burn yourself out if you try. Just do it your own way. at your own pace, you'll still get there. You might meander and go through a slightly different route, but this is what the way that you have to go to get there. So don't try to go there the way that other people do. Lisa Kelly: And if you just stop and and sit down in the mud for a few minutes and look around, there's probably a beautiful view sitting there in in the mud. Yeah, so Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, so Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad you talked about the the grief side of things 'cause it yeah, it really is something that needs to be talked about. Is is is Lisa Kelly: Yeah. And it's still, I mean, for us it's only been about a month. So I mean, I'm still having, you know, I'll go through two or three days where where everything feels good and then and then like something will hit me or I'll start to feel you know, panicky or anxious or something again and and I I st I still like it's it's habit. I instantly go to the the w like why am I feeling this way? And then I'm like, dang, don't forget, you're autistic. You know you're autistic now. That's exactly why this is happening. And and it's I can it I can feel the the judgment of myself like release as soon as I remember that. Like you have to, like it's it's still not fully sunk in yet. So I I am still having days where, you know, I I go to that default of you know, what's wrong with you? And then I'm like, wait a minute, no, there's not no remember So it's it it is I'm getting still getting used to the idea that I that I am autistic and it's it's so funny because I wanted to ask you too if like like once once I knew I was autistic and once like my mom and family and and you know the people closest to me knew it's almost like now you can't unsee it. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Lisa Kelly: It's it's it's like that, you know, there's when when you get a new car or when you think of a a particular car, all of a sudden you see that car everywhere on the road. It's like now that I know I'm autistic, I'm seeing the autism in everything I do. And like my even my mom who, you know, I think at first there was a little bit I I don't want to say she was like Not like she wasn't denying that I was autistic, but I kind of started almost lightheartedly throwing it out there a a year or two ago when I started suspecting it, kind of like I hate to say it, but but almost like making a joke out of it, like, hey, I think I'm autistic, like and and my mom would be like, you know. And you were always a fine child, you know, but I always used to get described as shy, sensitive. but you know, so I think for parents, especially parent, you know, when you were born in the 70s, 80s, I never even heard the word autism. Never in my life would I did I hear of that back when I was younger or anything. So no, you know, we we had no idea what that was when we were kids, but Trevor Holland: Well, autism was is what we saw in in the media. So for me, autism was was in half a million rain, man. That's all autism was. there wasn't any range to it. It was you're a savant. If you're autistic, you're a savant. You you're completely locked in and you are a savant, but you cannot function in society. That's what my c preconception was. Lisa Kelly: Mmm, yes. Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Didn't know anything else. Yeah. Lisa Kelly: Yep. Definitely. Trevor Holland: Yeah, it it yeah, I I can I I can identify it. yeah, you're you're right. And it in a way it's easier because because you understand why you're doing what you're doing, you can make your peace with it a lot more quickly. because you're not having you know, there are most things in life we will over analyze, but this is one we no longer have to. Lisa Kelly: Yes. Right, right. Trevor Holland: So that so it it's taken such a weight off our shoulders to to no longer have to analyse this behaviour because you know why you're doing it. You know you can't do anything about it, and you know that all in all likelihood it will pass. and it's okay. So you're like, I'm just being autistic right now. Fuck it, that's fine. You I you know, cards on the table. I've had a bad day today. Lisa Kelly: Hehehehe Sorry. Trevor Holland: Nothing not nothing's happened. I've just had a bad day for being over overwhelmed. and yeah, I I I've I've been in a really bad mood for most of the day, so tired and so overstimulated and so stressed and I explained it to my wife earlier on, but I was getting so angry at every I I I was we we we we like to go for a lot of walks and I was going for a walk and I could hear someone probably Lisa Kelly: Yeah. yes. Trevor Holland: I don't know, fifty meters behind, but I could hear them carrying their keys in their hands as they're walking. So it was making a bit of a noise. And I was like I used to stop immediately. And and but everything that I was hearing today was amplified by a hundred times and everything I was feeling. So even now when I'm when I'm hot and sweaty, I can feel it on every part of my skin and it's making me want to peel my skin off. Lisa Kelly: Yeah. I I can feel that. I'll I'll tell you a quick funny story that about that because my you know, we have Fourth of July here in America and that was last weekend and my boy you know, me and my boyfriend went on a like little boat cruise on a lake where they were gonna do fireworks and everything. And we went last year. And last year I had a pure panic attack before we got on the boat because I had no idea what to expect. It's not because I'm afraid of boats. It's not because I'm afraid of water. It's not, I just I knew the socializing. I was going to be trapped on a boat with a bunch of people I didn't know. So we we went back this year. I did not have a panic attack this year because I knew what to expect on the boat from last year, but Trevor Holland: Mm. Lisa Kelly: At one point on this boat trip, I was sitting in a chair and I and another woman sat next to me and her whole and you know it's like sweet, you know, because it's hot, it's summer, so like you're clammy, you're sweaty, you're gross, and her whole arm leaned up against my arm because we were like it was like tight quarters and instantly ruined. Like in that instant, I went from having like, we're having a decent time here. Okay, I'm I'm handling all the noise. Trevor Holland: no. Lisa Kelly: And all the conversations and the smells and the this really well. And it just took that one thing, just that lady's arm touching my arm, because a sensory of like her sticky skin touching my toy. And then, and then I I could not recover. Like, so it really only takes like one. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Lisa Kelly: th one thing sensory wise to ruin your entire day and now everything else is like amplified. Now I I as soon as that happened then I couldn't handle all the conversations around me. I couldn't handle all the different smells. I couldn't handle I it was just too it was it was too much and and you know I I I had to learn my lesson that maybe the boat cruise isn't the right thing for me and I kinda had to tell the boyfriend that next year maybe we're gonna have to find something different to do for Fourth of July. Because it's just it's it's too much. It's that something like that is too much and it does. It takes one tiny small thing that a normal person would again normal person would be like you let a woman's arm touch you, like ruin. I had luckily I had like wet naps. I was like wiping my arm off. I'm like, I need to go home and shower now. Like it's just the sensory of it. I instantly my like my flip got switched and that was it for me. Trevor Holland: Well, you're you you you you you're you're in in your in in life you're you're you're ninety five percent capacity all the time. it's never like you're y you start every day with a with a clean slate and you've got so no, your your bottle of what you can handle is is never empty. So it's not like you all this stuff will happen and it will accumulate and accumulate and accumulate. But by the time it even gets to the point of being full it started to settle on its own. But for us, every day we're at ninety-five percent. So it only takes one more thing to make our bottle explode. Lisa Kelly: Mm yes, yes. Trevor Holland: But we can feel perfectly happy until because 95% is our default setting. So we're perfectly okay at 95%. Right. So we're like, yeah, ninety-five, that's a good day. But we're not taking into account the lady with the arm. Lisa Kelly: That's our baseline. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I could s I I still I will and I'll feel that arm touching my arm for probably the next 20 years. I will never forget that feeling. Trevor Holland: Ha ha. I think it's the worst is is because like you said at the beginning, it's a boat there's no quick escape. Whenever there's anything that I'm not a hundred percent sure I want to do, if if the the if the escape route quite straightforward and when I say escape route I don't just mean getting out of there. I mean my escape route to getting home and in my pajamas on the couch. If that's a really straightforward transition and I don't have to talk to too many people for that to happen, then I'm like, cool. Lisa Kelly: No. Yes, yes. Trevor Holland: But to go on a boat You c you can't just say, But enough of this You're mate. No. Lisa Kelly: No, no, you cannot. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. I decided to after doing it two years in a row and just both times it being more like way more overwhelming. But but that's you know, that's the other thing too that I I am kind of proud of myself that I will I will give everything a good college try and you know, learn. There's been a lot of things I've learned just aren't for me and I can't handle them and I can't do them and and that that has to be okay. I just have to accept that, you know, in in certain ways I I am definitely limited, you know, there Like you said, there are some days when you're at ninety-five percent and you're having a really good day and and and on those days I almost question, am I really autistic? Like, I'm having a really good day. Like I can't be I can't be autistic. But then yeah, put me in a room full of strangers or Trevor Holland: Mm. Mm-hmm. Lisa Kelly: mention something, try to do something spontaneous or anything and it's complete meltdown and rage and it's like, yeah, yeah, I'm definitely autistic. I I see it. It's back. There it is. Yeah. Trevor Holland: yeah, there it is. There it is. God, yeah. Right. Well listen, I'm gonna have to wrap things up here 'cause I am so hot. Lisa Kelly: Yes, yes, go go get comfortable. Trevor Holland: But so yeah, I'll say goodbye at the but stay stay on for a second after I finish the recording and have to cut the da out explaining that. But but but but Lisa, yeah, so we'll we'll wrap things up here. But thank you so much. It's been so lovely to talk to you. It's been such a pleasure to hear your story. Lisa Kelly: Yes. You too, thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me. It was exciting to do something new. Hey. Trevor Holland: No, you're welcome. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. yeah, Lisa, thank you. Take care. Lisa Kelly: You too, Trevor. Thank you. Trevor Holland: So that was Lisa Kelly. Hope you all enjoyed that and I hope you were able to to tolerate me. so if you enjoyed this post if you wow, if you enjoyed this podcast against all odds, then please do subscribe. Please leave a review, be kind, because you know, it's me, I'm a nice guy. please follow me on my social media channels, on Facebook, on Instagram. please follow me on my Substack. Please take a look at my Red Bubble shop where I've got all sorts of different designs around autism and neurodiversity. just please feed back to me. Please comment, please just get in contact with me because it's a little bit lonely over here if I'm being completely frank. I'm meeting some lovely guests, but you guys, wow, you're quiet. you know, just get involved. I'd love to hear from you. Go to shoutybra com and you'll see the links to all of the various bits and pieces. You'll get the links to the social media, the YouTube, the Substack, the Red Bubble, all of it. And please wait a second. This is just the shit show I'm in. Please follow Lisa on Instagram. She's got a fantastic account, and her Instagram is at whimsical and autistical. I can't want to spell it for you. It's whimsical and autistical. You know, it's gonna be in the show notes. I could spell it out to you, but how much time have I got really? But yeah, thanks to Lisa. Thanks to you for listening. We'll see you next week with another special guest and who knows what it's gonna sound like. It's it's a what a time to be alive, guys. Take care.