Latest / Millennial Mental Health Channel / Do Sociopaths Deserve Understanding and Treatment?

Transcript

Do Sociopaths Deserve Understanding and Treatment? · Millennial Mental Health Channel

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to MMHC, your go-to mental health podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm Eddie Carrillo, a licensed professional counselor.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: And I'm Justin Romano, a board-certified child and adolescent psychiatrist.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: We created MMHC to give listeners evidence-based information directly from
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: professionals who work in mental health.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: We're not influencers. We're not trying to sell you anything.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: We just want to bring love, empathy, and understanding of
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: mental health into this world.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: And we really think that learning about mental health should
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: be fun, interesting, and most importantly, honest.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: So thanks for tuning in. This is a show by
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: two millennials, but it is intended to be for everyone.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoy the show. MMHC is a production
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: of Spreaker from iHeartMedia. Welcome back to MMHC. Eddie, we
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: got a big anniversary this month. October is our month,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: is our anniversary month. How long we've been doing this, man?
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Seven years. What is that? Is that the paper anniversary?
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Which one is the silver?
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Paper is usually year one.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Let me see here. Oh, fuck.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Seven years is traditionally copper and wool.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Nice. Okay. There you go. Is year six the Porto
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: anniversary or was that just us?
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: That was just us.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Okay. That's good to know. That is crazy to think.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: That that was a year ago. Wow, that we were
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: in Porto.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Crazy.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Cool.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Time flies when you're having fun. It does.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons why we continue to
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: do this because it's just fun. It's fun to hang
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: out with you. It's fun to learn. It's fun to
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: keep doing the show. And we're still just baffled that
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: we get thousands of downloads every month still. You guys
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: are still listening. And that's a cool thing. We do
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: this for you guys. We'd like to think that hey,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: if one person is helped by our show, then all
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: seven years have been worth it.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: How sick is that? We're in the 2,000 to 2,500
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: downloads a month range. People have just been listening and
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: continuing to listen, which is cool. And I actually think
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: it's actually slightly increased recently, like over the past few months.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: So I think that is awesome. We appreciate you all. Again,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: like Justin said, it's fun to hang out with each other,
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: but it's also the learning part. Before this, I think
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: the coolest part is every time before we start recording,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Like the first like 10 to 15 minutes is just
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: you and I catching up and then just talking, like
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: just learning. Like you're teaching me about antipsychotic medication before
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: we started this. That's not what the episode's about, but
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: it was just something that's, you know, a topic that
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I'm doing in my intro to diagnosis class. You're teaching me,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: helping me fill in the gaps of the stuff that
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know. So I think it's cool. It's been
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: awesome to just continue to learn with you and get
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: to do this on a very regular basis together.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: For sure. And even just hanging out with you, learning
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: your style. I learned so much from you, too. It's
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: a nice back and forth. But if you're listening to
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: this and you've always thought like, hey, I kind of
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: want to reach out to these guys.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Do it.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you. We honestly don't
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: hear too often from listeners. So if there's something you
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: want to ask about or any show that you want,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: any specific recommendations or topics you want to show on.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: let us know. Reach out to us on our Instagram.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: That's probably where we're most likely to respond to. But yeah, honestly,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you because we think
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: it's so cool that so many people listen.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What do we have today? I think this is
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: an episode for me to listen and learn, but what
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: are we teaching about?
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, I read a book. And this book was so
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: good and so impactful that I felt like it was
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: worth it to do a whole episode on especially because
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: it changed my perception of a whole diagnosis. So I
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: think we've done a little bit on this type of
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: thing in the past, but we figured it was time
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: to do it again. So the book that I read
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: was called Sociopath by Patrick Gagné, who is actually a
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: lady named Patrick. So I thought that was kind of cool.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: So yeah, she has actually been diagnosed as a sociopath,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: a card-carrying sociopath. And there will be spoilers, but I
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: would encourage you, if you're interested in psychology, if you're
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: interested in this topic, go check it out. It's a
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: great read. It's autobiographical. So she's talking about her life,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: her experiences, all the things that she has been through.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: And I very much enjoyed it, learned a ton, and
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: it shifted my perspective. So it checked a lot of
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: the boxes for things that I find really interesting. And
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: this book does not go the way you think it will.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Hearing the title sociopath, you think it's probably going to
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: end up in tragedy and jail, but it really does not. Hey, Eddie,
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: when you hear sociopath, like what comes to mind? Who
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: comes to mind?
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, who comes to mind? I think we'll talk about
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: it at the end, but I think one of them,
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: one of the main ones I'll think about is like
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Ted Bundy, someone who people consider to be a sociopath.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: I also think of the word and how much those
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: get thrown around all the time to really talk about
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: people who don't really follow traditional societal norms, who really
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: go against the grain in very extreme manners. I think
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: the other piece to it, obviously, because we are experts
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: in this, but just knowing that sociopath and psychopath are
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: not actually diagnoses. And I know we'll talk about it
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: here in a little bit, but those are probably the
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: main things that stick out, is these very, this is
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: not what I believe, but this is what I think
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: pop culture has really, like, exemplify it as people who
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: are considered to be sociopaths or psychopaths, maybe dangerous, manipulative,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: persuasive in all the wrong ways, people that you don't
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: want to be around. And if I can actually probably
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: take it a step further, this is my own bias.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: I hear the word sociopath or psychopath. I just think
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: of men. And so that's probably something to do with
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: the media and things that I've consumed over the years
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: in popular culture. But yeah, that's my ramble on it.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Well, that was excellent because you combined like the clinical
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: diagnosis with what society thinks. So that was exactly what
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: I was looking for.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: We didn't even plan that one out.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: So yeah, you're spot on. And Patrick Gagné, the author
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: of the book, she grew up and she was always
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: a little bit different. Even in the book, she talks
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: about how she had like this pet ferret that always
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: like followed her around. And her and this ferret were
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: always just getting into like mischief and like she'd love
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: this pet ferret. Her parents always kind of knew that
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: she was a little bit different, not quite like every
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: other kid. She really did not have any sort of
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: regard for the rules. She also did not really care
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: about social rules, not just like legal rules or parent rules,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: just like social rules. So like she was at sleepover
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: or a get together with friends and she'd like found
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: these kids annoying. And so she locked him out of
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: the house in the middle of the night and just
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: like left. And then, and so like the kids were
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: like banging on the windows and doors and like, please
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: let us in. And the parents were like, what the
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: hell happened? And they're like, Patrick was just like, I
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: locked him out. They, they annoyed me. They pissed me off.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: So like not following rules, doing things that she knew
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: were wrong, but didn't really care. She found it very
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: hard to make connections and make friends because she didn't
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: really care about the same thing that every other little
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: girl or little boy really cared about. She did not
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: really care about hurting other people. When she was young,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: she did occasionally hurt other people and hurt people emotionally.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: She kind of had her own rules for herself so
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: that she didn't hurt people when she got older. But
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: when she was younger, it kind of happened a little
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: bit more. She would also just straight up leave the
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: house in the middle of the night and just go roam.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Like her mom said like, hey, don't leave the house.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: And she's like, I find this fun. And so she'd
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: like go into people's garages, go into people's yards. I mean,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: as a young kid, like pre-pubertal, she'd just be out
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: there on the streets, just like checking stuff out in
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: the middle of the night. Yeah, she did have some
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: of her own morals and rules that she cared if
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: she broke. But society's rules, no care in the world.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: She was also able to very much intellectually understand why
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: people follow rules and like why rules were there. She
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: just had no inherent drive to follow them herself. And
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: so I thought that was a really interesting point where
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: she just thought, you know, like I get why, but
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: it's just not for me. I just cannot force myself
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: to really care about this and care about the rules.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: So another really interesting aspect of the book is that
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: she does end up falling in love when she's a
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: teenager with someone that loves her and cares about her
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: and in a lot of ways lets her be herself.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: and doesn't judge her for being a sociopathic, at least
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: at first. But one of the main themes throughout the
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: book is that everyone in her life, from her parents
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: to her romantic partner, they all expect her to change.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: And all expect her to like work on it and
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: no longer have a lot of those sociopathic tendencies. And
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: a lot of the book is her being able to
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: convey to her family and to her eventual husband that, hey,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: this is kind of who I am. I am working
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: on it. It is going to get better, but there
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: are always going to be things that are different about me.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: She actually spent some time working in the music industry
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: as kind of like a music executive, but ended up
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: getting her PhD in psychology and studying sociopaths and like,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: and doing research on how anxiety impacts sociopaths. So I
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: love this book. I mean, this is like everything I
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: find interesting. I, It's okay.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: I have thoughts. I like this.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Keep going.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Something to connect. Okay. So you're talking about how she
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: ended up getting her PhD and studying like sociopaths, right?
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Or we'll define it here in a little bit. It's
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: like Marsha Lenahan, you know, like the queen of DBT
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: or dialectical behavior therapy. She, I believe, was diagnosed with
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: borderline personality disorder, at least had some of the characteristics.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: She ends up essentially designing the treatment, the main treatment
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: that we have to this day for people with borderline
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: personality disorder. Another thing I'm thinking about, one of my
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: students yesterday, we're talking about bipolar disorder and schizophrenia spectrum disorders.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: They shared a book that was written that I think
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: you may find interesting by an author, Esme Wang. It's
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: a collection, an essay collection called The Collected Schizophrenias. And
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: it's about, it's essentially her personal narrative about her journey
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: towards the diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder and experiences with psychosis.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: So I don't know. It's just really like making me
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: think of like the best way to learn about some
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: of these things can potentially be from people who actually
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: are experiencing and like know firsthand some of these disorders.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: What a, yeah. Anyway, I was like, as you're sharing,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: I'm like, fuck, I got to find the names of
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: these books. I got to share this here in a
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: little bit. Great point.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Because there's so much taboo. There's so much stigma around
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: these diagnoses that even if people identify as sociopaths, most
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: of them will never tell you. Like most of them
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: will keep it to themselves so that they are not judged.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: And that prevents people from coming forward, people from being studied,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: people from understanding and getting that perspective and point of view.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: So that's one of the things I loved about this
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: book is that she was not afraid to tell people.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: It even goes through a period of her life that
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: she mentions in the book where she told a lot
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: of people, especially in the music business. She'd be like, well, like,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: you know me, like I'm a straight up sociopath. And
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: then a lot of people in the music business would
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: be like, oh, me too. I'm a sociopath too. And
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: then she'd get to know him and be like, they're
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: not sociopaths.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: No, I'm a sociopath.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Not even close.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, we should do, we'll just put it out
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: there now. Let's get an episode on like schizophrenia spectrum
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: disorders too. Let's talk about that. Let's try and clear up.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Because part of my lecture last night was about like
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: what is some like preconceived notions that we have about
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: severe and persistent mental illness. And like what are some
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: things that like pop culture and media has essentially taught
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: us that is probably not true. Right. I know for
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: my students had a ton of examples, but yeah, I
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: like it. Let's do that. I've decided for us. Eventually
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: we'll do that. Yes. Perfect. Let me take over for
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: a little bit. I will talk about diagnoses and just
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: maybe having a little bit of a better definition because
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: I know you wrote it down in our notes. She
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: ends up discussing it in the book, but we do
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: need to clarify like sociopath, psychopath. What does it mean?
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: What are they getting at? Are they in the DSM-5
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: now text revised? The short answer is no, neither one
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: is in the DSM-5. Neither of them are a diagnosis.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: The old words of sociopath and psychopath have never really
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: had an agreed upon definition. So essentially sociopath is the quote,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: not as bad form and psychopath is the more severe form.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: In the dictionary, the definition is a person who has
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: antisocial personality disorder, ASPD, meaning they show a long-term pattern
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: of disregarding social norms, violating the rights of others and
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: lacking empathy or remorse. I actually pulled up the lecture
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: that I'm going to be giving next week on antisocial
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: personality disorder, or actually all personality disorders, and I'm going
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: to read through kind of what it says in the DSM-5.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: So bear with me. It has the main bullet point.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: It's a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: the rights of others, and then in parentheses, plus evidence
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: of conduct disorder, which I'll define here in a little bit,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: with the onset being before age of 15 years, and
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: then they have to have three or more of the
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: following criteria. So the first one is failure to comply
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: form to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors indicated
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest. Next
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: is deceitfulness indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: conning others for personal profit or pleasure. Next up, impulsivity
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: or failure to plan ahead. Next, we have irritability and
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: aggressiveness indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults. After that,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: we have reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Next up is consistent irresponsibility indicated by repeated failure to
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations. And the
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: last one is lack of remorse indicated by being indifferent
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: So that's, in a nutshell, the diagnostic criteria that we
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: have for antisocial personality disorder. For psychopath, in the dictionary,
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: the definition is a person with a personality disorder or
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: mental illness Marked by an absence of empathy, a lack
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: of guilt or remorse, extreme egocentricity, and a tendency to
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: engage in antisocial, manipulative, or violent behavior. Kind of pretty
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: much explaining antisocial personality disorder. Really, the two diagnoses that
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: we have to explain all of this are conduct disorder
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: and antisocial personality disorder. And conduct is for those who
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: are under 18. I will take another little bit of
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: time and I'll read you the diagnostic criteria for conduct disorder.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: I pulled it up. I have it in my kind
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: of sketchy electronic version of the DSM-5-TR. So the criteria
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: for conduct disorder is a repetitive, and you'll probably notice
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of repeats across both, a repetitive and
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: others or more age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: As manifested by the presence of at least three of
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months, from
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: any of the categories below with at least one criteria
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: being present in the past six months. I will just
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: give you kind of the subgroups of criteria. I don't
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: have to read all 15 to you. But one of
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: the subgroups is aggression to people and animals, things like bullying,
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: initiating fights, being physically cruel to animals. The next one
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: is destruction of property, setting fires, things like that, destroying property.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Deceitfulness or theft, breaking into people's houses or conning others.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: And then serious violations of rules, often staying out despite
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: having parental prohibitions, kind of like Patrick, running away from home,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: things like that. They have some other specifiers that we
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: don't need to get into, but as you can see,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: there is a lot of crossover with conduct and antisocial
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: personality disorder. My question to you, Justin, I want to
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: hear your thoughts on it, because I think I have
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: an idea of it, but this is not super in
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: my wheelhouse. Does that then mean that conduct disorder is...
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Potentially the precursor to antisocial personality disorder? Are they kind
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: of like one for one? What is our thoughts on that? Basically.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Essentially, conduct disorder, as soon as you turn 18, turns
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: into antisocial personality disorder.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: They're basically the same diagnosis, just for different ages.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That makes sense. There you go. You heard it
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: here first. Potentially.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: The traditional thinking on sociopaths and psychopaths, and I remember
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: even learning this in medical school, is that they just
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: need to be behind bars because they're potentially dangerous and
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: they hurt other people. But I mean, this book really
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: did change my perspective quite a lot. There's an old
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: saying that says smart sociopaths become CEOs and dumb ones
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: or unintelligent ones end up in prison. And I think
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: that that does happen quite a lot in this world.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Like if you are out for yourself, if you are
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: not afraid to hurt other people, you can make it
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: quite a far way in a capitalist society. Yeah. But yeah,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: especially if you're smart enough to cover your tracks. And
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: that's kind of the cool thing about the book and
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Patrick Gagne is that she's very smart and she was
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: able to cover her tracks and able to fly under
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: the radar. And she did a lot of illegal things.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Like there was a whole part of the book where
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: she talks about when she was in college, she used
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: to find like drunk frat boys and, steal their keys
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: at parties and then just go for joy rides for
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: hours in California. Just like riding up and down the
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: coast all over the place.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Never got caught.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: So like, like impulsive, dumb, but able to also keep
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: it in check and not get caught for a lot
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: of these things.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: For a lot of people, they worry about like, how
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: does this happen? Like what causes these things? Conduct disorder
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: and antisocial personality disorder. Also, we didn't even talk about this.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: A lot of people assume antisocial personality disorder means you
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: don't want to be around people. Yes. Very common misconception, right?
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: A lot of people will say like, oh, I'm very antisocial. No,
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: you're not saying what you think you're saying. Be very
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: careful with that. If someone told us they're very antisocial,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: that means a very big different thing than like the
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: popular culture reference. Antisocial personality disorder is not that you
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: don't want to be around other people. It's everything that
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: we just listed. So sidebar, I'll come back. Anyway. So
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: what causes this? One more sidebar.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: When was the last time you heard someone say this
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: is a pet peeve of theirs?
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: The word? Or like the phrase pet peeve? Yeah, the phrase.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Probably within the last couple weeks. Oh, okay. I haven't
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: heard in a while.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: But that's actually one of my big pet peeves. When
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: people are like, oh, I'm so antisocial. And I'm like, oh,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: you're out there hurting animals and breaking rules.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: No you're asocial asocial means you don't want to be
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: around people antisocial means you want to hurt people well
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: a couple.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Weeks ago yes yeah huge difference a couple weeks ago
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: in my class the intro to diagnosis we covered ocd
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: and we talked about that that's actually probably where it
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: came up someone's saying their pet peeve was when people
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: say like oh i'm so ocd i really like to
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: organize my things like that's not even you have no
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: idea that's not even yeah but Not even close. OCD, right? Actually,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about OCD coming up soon, so
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: I won't even get into it. If you want to
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: hear it, look for a future episode, very near future episode.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: But again, conduct disorder, personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, how
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: do we get here? Like everything we talk about, it
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: really depends. Tons of factors. With a lot of things
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: in mental health, it's usually a combination. of genetics, childhood trauma,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: chaotic environment growing up. I think Dr. David Pewter, a
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: friend of the show, he's talked about a lot with
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: personality disorders of how there's a lot of, there's a
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: consensus growing. I think it's been growing for a long
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: time that the personality disorders are maybe better described as
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: responses to like childhood trauma. disorders. So a lot of
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: people feel that way. Will we ever get to the
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: point where like the DSM-6 changes the definitions? We don't know.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: But just something to consider. It really is a combination
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: of all of the above. Brain imaging has shown that
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: this group of people tend to have a dulled fear response.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: And that oftentimes kids with conduct disorder hurt animals out
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: of enjoyment or curiosity and feel no remorse for it.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: So just some things that we see Again, it depends.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: That's going to be the best answer. It depends because
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: we really don't have a full grasp on how someone
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: ends up that way. Because you can get people kind
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: of similar. One of my students yesterday was talking about
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: there's a documentary on HBO where there's a family of,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: I think, like 12 children. They might be adults at
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: this point. But six of them grew up and have
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: been diagnosed with schizophrenia or some kind of other psychotic disorder.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: The other six have not. And they all grew up
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: in essentially the same environment. So it's like, how did that?
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: happen when they're all siblings growing up in the same
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: environment right you know it all depends okay i'll end
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: my ramble there you take.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Over well and i really wanted to bring up this
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: book because in the last three years working as an
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: attending psychiatrist working with a lot of kids and families
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: i have met a lot of kids with some like
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: sociopathic tendencies kids who are hurting animals kids who have
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: no regard for the rules kids with lots of trauma
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: typically too One thing I thought interesting about the book though,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: is that she didn't really have a ton or much
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: childhood trauma at all, other than like a parental divorce
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: was kind of probably the biggest thing, but yeah, it
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: doesn't have to have trauma every time, but usually these cases,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: or at least the more severe cases have some trauma
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: in there too. And most of the time in these
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: cases that I work with, parents are coming to me
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: because they're like, Hey, you're our last hope. Like we've
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: tried therapy, we've tried so many different things and nothing
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: really seems to be working for Parents are concerned, they're worried,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: and they're trying to get their kids help from going
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: down the wrong path. And I see the concern and
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: the worry in their eyes because imagine you're a parent
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: and your child starts like hurting animals and not abiding
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: by the rules. And there's like just absolutely nothing working
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: and nothing's going well. Like I would be so scared
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: if that was happening to one of my kids too.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: And you know, from a treatment standpoint, I learned in
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: residency that there is a type of therapy called multisystemic therapy.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: That is like the one form of therapy that has
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: some good evidence to show that it's helpful in antisocial
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: and conduct disorder. Mostly conduct disorder because by the time
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: you hit antisocial personality disorder, it's almost a little bit
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: too late. But in the state of Wyoming, practicing cannot
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: find anyone that does multisystemic therapy, not in the whole state.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: So that's like the one type of therapy that's out there.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I can't find anyone to do it.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Like, what the heck? Like, I can find people to
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: do almost everything, but I cannot find multisystemic therapy no
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: matter how hard we look.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do a live search for the Portland
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: area and see what we got. Nice.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: And, you know, multisystemic therapy is largely working on a
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: lot of behaviors and creating a set of rules across
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: multiple systems in your life, across school, across home, across
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: any other environment that you're on just to make sure
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: that There's really good consistency and there's really good structure
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: in your life to kind of keep you out of trouble.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Any luck with the Google search?
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: No. This is kind of rough. Yeah.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm looking at... So there's a mstservices.com, like multi-systemic
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: services website to help you find licensed providers. But it's
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: like worldwide. So that maybe shows... Yep. And right here,
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: even if you do the filter by state, there's nothing
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: in Oregon. Whoa.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: See, yeah, I went on there too.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I have Washington. Let's see. That's Washington, D.C. Okay. Oh,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: here we go. We had Seattle, Olympia, and that's it. Yeah.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: It's just, there's not many people doing that. That honestly
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: kind of surprised me when I got out into the
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: real world and started working as a doctor. I was like, Oh,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I always learned, get into multisystemic. And I'm like, oh,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: there's nobody.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: That does this. There's nowhere to go.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's sad.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: And, you know, I've personally seen lots of kids get
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: years of regular therapy and it not really helping at all.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Maybe a little, not much. And, you know, I was
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: doing research for this episode and I found a paper
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: from the NIMH that showed that treatment for the age
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: of 10 with multisystemic therapy can be moderately effective. Hey,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: that's pretty good. for mental health treatment. But like after 10,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: the rates of success really start going down. And 10's early.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's got to be a parent that's on
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: top of it, noticing things and pushing for their child
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: to get help. But it's not easy to get the
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: therapy that young.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and you have to have the idea of
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: like what it could be like. So you have to
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: have a parent that's like at least semi-educated in potentially
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: what's going on and like how How much as a
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: parent is that what you're looking for in a nine
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: or 10 year old? Like potential conduct or antisocial, like
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: budding antisocial personality disorder. Like it's not really, I can't
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: imagine that's what a lot of parents are thinking about.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. A lot of things have to come together
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: just right in order for the families to get the
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: right therapy at the right time for this. But this
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: book taught me that there's really not nearly enough research
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: into conduct disorder and antisocial personality disorder, sociopaths, all this stuff.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: And it really seems like that traditional thinking on this,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: that people need to be behind bars. I don't know.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: I think we need to change this. I think we
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: need to look at that. I think we need to
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: start finding ways to help these people and turn that
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: trajectory around. Patrick Gagne really taught me that sociopaths can
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: live relatively normal lives if they have the right support
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: and are really passionate about growing and changing and understanding
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: themselves and understanding their brains. Another large aspect of the
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: book was her diving into how anxiety impacts the behavior
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: of sociopaths. And for her, she always felt this internal pressure,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: this internal anxiety. And she felt like the only way
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: to really let out that pressure was to do something bad,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: to break the rules. That's what helped her in the moment.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: And so she studied that a lot. That's what worked
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: for her. And over time throughout her life, she found
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: more socially acceptable things to be able to scratch that
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: same itch, get that pressure out in a way that
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: wouldn't hurt other people, that wouldn't be socially unacceptable. And
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: that's how she learned to deal with it. But she learned.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: That's the cool part. She figured herself out. She spent
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: years studying sociopaths and herself to fix it. And she did.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: And it's not easy still. And she still has ups
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and downs in her life. But man, I just thought
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: that was such a cool story and so inspiring.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: You know, now that you mentioned that, and because OCD
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: has been in my brain recently from my lecture, the
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: way you're describing it of like her having like an
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: internal pressure or anxiety and feeling like the only way
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: she can relieve it is to do something bad. That's
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: very similar to people who have obsessions and compulsions, right? Yes.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: People who are dealing with like these thoughts and anxieties
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: and struggling with that and then feeling like they need
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: to do some type of compulsion to get rid of
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: it and to like help keep it at bay interesting
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: very connection and.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: I think I think she does mention that in the book.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: She's like, I know this kind of sounds like OCD.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: So she dives into that a little bit.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: You're on top of it. Interesting. It's like you're a
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: trained professional or something.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm going to give you a break. I'm going
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: to go through the famous sociopaths. Before I do, though,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: are we going off of like these are people based
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: off of popular culture definition or just like our own
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: kind of research? Okay. Yeah. I think that's fair.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Because these are famous potential examples. And really, I think
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: it goes to show how much the media just really
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: trains us to like these are just bad people. Not
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: all sociopaths or psychopaths or people with antisocial personality disorder
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: are that way. These are just kind of the famous
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: ones really to tie it all together, maybe people you've
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: heard of. So the first one being Ted Bundy, the
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: serial killer, who today... was just found to be responsible
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: for another murder. I have it pulled up here from
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: AP News three hours ago. Serial killer Ted Bundy is
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: linked to another Utah teenager's 1974 killing through DNA testing.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Ted Bundy has been dead since 1989. So, wild. That
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: much later for that to pop up. We have John
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Wayne Gacy. He's also a serial killer. Is he the
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: one that would dress up as a clown? We're making
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: that up. I don't know.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: That's the John Wayne Gacy clown.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: While you look that up, I'll say the next one.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Yosef Mangelli, who's a Nazi doctor who did cruel experiments
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: on humans. We also have Mr. Bernie Madoff. He's the
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Ponzi scheme guy. I think I might be. I think
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: I understand it. Ponzi schemes was essentially you were selling
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: some type of like get rich quick scheme. And the
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: way you did it was you would sell it and
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: then the people would give you money and then you
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: would use that money. And then you'd get other people
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: to give you money. And then the money that the
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: other people gave you, you used to give to the
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: other people that you already got the money from. And
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: you're essentially like not really, you're just, you're not really
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: making money. You're just using other people's money to have
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: the illusion that you've made money. Does that sound right? Yeah,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: pretty much. Yeah. Bam. And then Elizabeth Holmes just had
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: a documentary come out from her about her. What is it?
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: You Can See Everything. Yeah. Nick Felder. the A24 studio film.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Looks wild.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: I want to see it so bad. Yeah.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: You know what? You know what's wild? Besides all this,
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: but like this whole like Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes things. I
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: thought this happened in like the early 2000s. This is
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: like relatively recent. Like, 2015-ish, 2016, she got, like, in
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: trouble and got caught. And then because of, like, white-collar
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: crimes tend to take a long time to convict somebody
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: because they have to get a lot of, like, evidence
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: and money and, like, all that stuff and really track
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: everything down. And then COVID happened and then all the stuff. And, like,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: she just went to prison, like, semi-recently. So, I don't know.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: I thought this happened a long time ago, but it
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: did not. Relatively recent. Yeah.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: I also watched that Amanda Seyfried show. Where she played
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: That was actually really fun. I heard it's really good.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really good.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: I heard she did a great job.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: She does a good job.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, she just defrauded people out of billions,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, either hundreds of millions or billions.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: So another, that's why I really want to see that
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: documentary because I want to see what she's like. Like,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: I want to know. She just seems very charming and
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: sweet and manipulative. It's like that kind of is all
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: the things that sociopaths are.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, but also Amanda Seyfried's range, right? As
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: like Elizabeth Holmes, right? And then also she was in
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: the movie The Housemaid. And she was in Mean Girls
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: as Karen Smith. What a range, right? Man. Have you
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: ever heard.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Her play a dulcimer?
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: What is that?
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: It's this old instrument that most people have never even
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: heard of, but she can play Joni Mitchell's California on
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: a dulcimer. Go check out. She played it on a
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: late night show.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: It's really good.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: She kind of sounds like Joni Mitchell, who's one of
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: my favorite artists ever. I really like Amanda Seyfried. I
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: think she's very talented.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Also, now that I've pulled up her bio, she's been
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: diagnosed with OCD. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And she's also trying
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: to manage generalized anxiety disorder. Hey. Look at that.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Well, we should probably just do a whole episode on
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Amanda Seyfried.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Did you find out if John Wayne Gacy or whatever
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: his name is, was he the one that dressed as
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: clowns or am I making that up?
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: He became known as Killer Clown due to his public
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: performances as a clown prior to the discovery of his crimes.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: So he was a party clown and on his free
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: time he was killing people.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Jeez. What a world we live in. I don't like that.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: You know what?
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Let's end it on that note. I like that.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I like that. Yeah. Jeez. Well, thanks for listening, everybody.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Hopefully you gained something from this discussion of sociopaths, psychopaths,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: and conduct disorder and antisocial personality disorder. You know where
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: to find us. Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Leave us a five-star
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: review if you'd like to. If you'd like to, leave
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: us a comment. We'll respond to it on air, social media,
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: at MillennialMHC, MillennialMHC.com. We'll see you all again in a
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: couple weeks. Happy seven years, my friend. And yeah, remember,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: take care of y'all mentals. Thank you. Thank you.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Thank you.