Latest / 🎙️ Rebuild & Fulfill Real conversations on burnout, rebuilding, and becoming stronger than before. / World Mental Health Day 2026: When We Truly Listen, Things Change | Episode 43
Transcript
- Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): We often encourage people who are struggling with their mental health to speak up. We tell them that their stories matter and they should not suffer in silence. But what happens after they speak? Do we truly listen? Do we allow their experiences to change the way we respond, the support we provide, and the decisions that we make? Or do we praise them for their courage and then continue doing exactly what we were doing before? October 10th is World Mental Health Day, and this year's theme is Lived Experiences Heard. Real voices, real change. Today, Marc and I are talking about what it means to move beyond simply hearing someone's story and begin allowing those stories to create real change. Because finding the courage to speak should not be the end of the conversation. It should be the beginning. Welcome back to Rebuild and Fulfill. I'm Kelsey Dunbar, and joining me is my co-host and Suffer to Tougher co-founder, Marc Rogala. October 10th is officially recognized as World Mental Health Day. It is also the final day of Mental Illness Awareness Week here in the United States. The theme for World Mental Health Day this year is Lived Experiences Heard, Real Voices, Real Change. Mental Illness Awareness Week has a different But closely connected theme, turning science into hope. Those two ideas give us a lot to talk about today. We need research, science, treatment, and trained mental health professionals. But we also need to listen to the people who actually live with mental health conditions and challenges every single day. Not because lived experiences replace professional expertise, but because each offers knowledge that the other may not be able to provide alone. Before we get into this conversation, we also want to be clear that Marc and I are not therapists and this podcast is not a replacement for professional care. We are speaking from our experiences as resilience and mental fitness coaches, as well as from what we have learned through our own lives and the people we've had a privilege of serving. So Marc, let's begin with the first half of this year's theme. Lived experiences heard. a lot of people would probably say that they listen when someone talks about mental health. But hearing words and making someone feel genuinely heard are not necessarily the same thing. When you hear the phrase lived experiences heard, what does being truly heard mean to you? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): It's a good question. I would say it's a combination of things, Kelse. I think listening without immediately trying to fix the problem. You know, we tend to be problem solvers as human beings. So somebody's trying to explain the situation that they're in and we're trying to provide a solution, but we don't even really truly have an understanding of what the problem is. understand that someone's experience is real, even though we might not completely understand the circumstances. It's real, they're feeling that pain. It's obviously affecting them on the inside. I think it's also important that we don't compare their pain with someone else's, or maybe something that I went through. you obviously want to give them enough time and safety to tell their truth, how they want to portray it, and how much they want to share with you. ask what they need instead of assuming. Again, I think that as human beings, we tend to make some assumptions. You know, but you you don't know what they need unless they unless they convey to you what they need. It might just be support or a couple of phone calls here and there, just checking up on them. And I think the most important thing is is don't treat it as a single conversation. You know, somebody's telling you they're struggling, going through a bad way, dealing with some anxiety, some depression, maybe some addictive issues, whatever it might be. You know, shoot him a text every now and then or pick up the phone and give him a call and say, Hey, how are you doing? I I think that's so important. I was the recipient of those phone calls and those texts a number of times when I was in my crisis and I cannot tell you how that helped my psyche at that particular time. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, absolutely. Well said. I think that last part is especially important because sometimes we listen to somebody's story, then we feel moved by it and tell them how brave they are, right? But nothing changes afterward. The person may still feel unsupported, the same barriers may still exist, and the same language may still be used. And even the same assumptions might still be made. But being heard should mean more than receiving sympathy for a few minutes. it should mean that what you shared mattered enough to affect what happens next. so there is another distinction that I think is important to make during an awareness event like this. We are not celebrating mental illness itself. We're celebrating the fact that we as a society are finally talking about it. So, for generations, people were taught to hide mental illness. Families didn't talk about it. People were afraid that acknowledging a struggle would make them look weak or unstable or incapable or somehow less valuable. We've definitely made progress. Mental health is discussed far more openly today. But increased conversation does not mean that stigma has disappeared. People are still worried about what'll happen if they tell their employer or their family or their friends. or even their doctor what they're actually experiencing. So Marc, do you think sometimes people assume that because we talk about mental health more openly today, the stigma is no longer as serious? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): I think that's a tricky question there. Is it no longer as serious? Probably, but is it still serious? Yes. We've we've made progress, but as I've said before many times, we have such a long way to go as a society, in my opinion. And the reason being is that even though public conversation has improved, personal disclosure still feels dangerous to the individual that's going through. whatever they're going through. It's real easy to support mental health in general. But when you have someone close to you that's struggling, it still feels a little uneasy and you have a loss for words. You're not sure exactly how to support them or help them. people will support awareness publicly, you know, with Facebook posts and social media posts and things like that. But truthfully, I still think that there there's still some judgment there regarding certain diagnoses or certain behaviors. You know, if somebody's battling alcohol or substances, you know, they still might refer to them in a derogatory term. so yeah, I mean, I think social media acceptance is great, but it doesn't always translate into real world world support. some people still fear being d being defined by a diagnosis. I mean, I hear those conversations every single day. that they're afraid that they're gonna be known as somebody that deals with depression or somebody that deals with bipolar or somebody that's got general anxiety disorder, that that's what people are gonna think of when they think of them. and then the other thing too is, you know, if we're gonna talk about alcohol and substances, which is obviously a symptom of underlying mental health, you got people that are fearful and and literally are very shameful of the fact that they might be an alcoholic or or or dealing with some type of addiction for sure. I mean that still goes on quite regularly with the work that we do. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, or or simply in denial that it's a problem as opposed to something that they just do. So that's another one. Okay. So where do you think the biggest gap still exists between what we say publicly and then how we respond privately? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): I think it's one simple word, education. I think that society in general has an ignorance, and again, I'm not saying that in a negative connotation, an ignorance or a lack of knowledge when it comes to this subject matter, whether it's a mental health diagnosis or some type of addiction, again, whether it's alcohol, substances, gambling, or what have you, there's such a lack of education there still by the general public, and I think that's where the gap needs to be closed. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, for sure. So this year's theme asks us to recognize lived experience as a meaningful form of knowledge. That does not mean that one person's experience represents everyone with the same condition, but it does mean that people living through these challenges understand parts of the experience that may not be visible from the outside. My own interest in mental health did not begin with the work I was doing helping people as a fitness coach who may have actually had some underlying mental health issues. It actually began with the things that I experienced during my own childhood. but as I began to learn and understand how deeply mental health affects physical change, there were beliefs, experiences, fears, patterns, And emotional burdens affecting my ability to follow through. That realization helped me move more deeply into resilience and mental fitness coaching. Working with Marc reinforced how important that connection actually is. So, Marc, how has your own lived experience influenced the way that you support someone who is struggling? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well, I'm anything first and formost I've been there. I understand the struggle, right? and I think a lot of times that creates a safe zone for the individual because they're talking to somebody that understands the struggle, understands the shame and guilt, and can provide, you know, knowledge and and advice on how to overcome some of those things. again, I mean I I don't want to disparage the professionals out there, okay, by any way, shape, or form. But there's a difference about knowing something intellectually and knowing something to live life experience. And I'm just speaking from my perspective, and you've heard me say this before, Kelsey. I needed therapy, I needed treatment. That was important. But the God's honest truth, I wouldn't be sitting here today if it wasn't for those individuals. They had their live life experiences, and they taught me how they applied all that stuff that you're learning from the professionals in their daily life, converting it to English, something that I can actually understand and apply, right? And how that helped them get sober, get their mental health in check, and so forth. And I it's it's it's just amazing when I start talking to individuals and and I tell them that I have an underlying mental health diagnosis. And you've seen this sometimes actually at some of our events and they know my story because obviously we share a little bit of our stories when we present. But people would just walk up to you. You know, or if I'm in a grocery store having a conversation with somebody and they ask me about the T shirt and I say, Well, I'm you know, I'm I've got underlying mental health and I'm a drug addict, alcoholic in recovery. Boom. I mean I I complete strangers will start telling me about what's going on with their life. It's just it's a safe zone. They they understand that I have an understanding of what they're going through. They see me now, they see me I'm living a life of recovery. I think they they they want that and they feel comfortable to disclose information to me. I mean, sometimes they disclose information to me that they don't even disclose to the professionals, quite frankly. That happens a lot actually. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, I think that's where lived experience expressed the right way is valuable without turning it into a competition with people about who suffered more, right? So your experience does not have to be identical to mine for you to approach me with compassion. Sometimes lived experience simply teaches us to be slower to judge someone else, right? So most people do not intentionally dismiss someone who is struggling. Often they are genuinely trying to help, but good intentions do not always lead to helpful responses. We hear phrases such as just stay positive, or well, everything happens for a reason, or other people have it worse, or maybe well, you have so much to be grateful for, or you don't look depressed, or you just need to get out more, right? Those responses may be intended to encourage someone, but they can also communicate that the person's experience is inconvenient or exaggerated or something they should be able to overcome through willpower. So, Marc, why do you think that we feel such a strong need to immediately fix someone's pain? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well, I think first of all, the individual that's trying to provide advice or making all those comments that you said earlier, they're in an uncomfortable situation. I mean, aga again, probably because of lack of experience or lack of knowledge. They they they they feel helpless, basically, is what it comes down to. And I think that we're quick to give some advice, like just stay positive, because it makes us feel like we're doing something. even though it probably has a negative portrayal on the individual that's on the other side of that, because I heard every single one of those phrases when I was dealing with what I was dealing with. Some people confuse support by finding a solution. And a lot of times the individual that's in it isn't necessarily looking for a solution. They just want to talk to somebody in a safe safe zone, safe spot, safe place, and just feel like they're they're cared for and that they're loved and they're just looking for just some support, some emotional support. And People are not always asking for you to solve their problems. They just want to be heard. And I also think this, I think it's very important, if somebody is disclosing to you that they're struggling with depression or anxiety or maybe some past trauma, understand they value the relationship that they have with you because they're basically disclosing something that they're probably dealing with a lot of shame and guilt. But they feel comfortable enough to be able to share that with you and they don't feel comfortable enough to share that with other individuals and sometimes individuals in their very own household. So I think that's very important to understand. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, absolutely. That's a a really good point. So if they're sharing with you, at least that means that they have that level of comfort. And the last thing you want to do is let them down by making it sound like you are just trying to tell them something that placates rather than actually makes them feel like they're understood. So sometimes the most helpful response isn't advice at all. It may just be, I believe you, or man. Thank you for trusting me. Or that sounds incredibly difficult. Or what would feel supportive right now? Or even just, do you want me to listen and help you think this through? Or maybe help you find some additional support? That final question gives the person some control. It also prevents us from assuming that we know what they need, right? So This conversation connects directly with the central message behind suffer to tougher. You're not broken, you're overloaded. You need to explain that carefully because it does not mean every mental health condition is simply the result of stress. It does not mean someone can eliminate a mental illness by reducing their workload, thinking positively, or becoming more resilient. It means that struggling does not make someone defective, weak, or less worthy. So Marc, when you tell someone you're not broken, you're overloaded, what does that mean to you? And how do we make sure that that message removes shame without minimizing what the person's actually experiencing? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): That's a good question. That word overloaded can mean so many different things. that could be past trauma, that could be dealing with grief because of a divorce or a split up in a relationship, or god forbid, a death. Could be isolation, could be responsibilities. Could be health challenges. You know, a lot of people might be going through some physical health challenges that might be causing some depressed thoughts. I life is not easy. We've talked about this before. And it seems that, you know, with what's going on out there right now, specifically with the financial stress, there's pressures on individuals that haven't been felt in in some instances in a couple of generations, And I see that with the work that we do in the community. Overload too can also be multiple things happening at once. I could be dealing with financial stress, but also dealing with some physical health issues as well. Or maybe the physical health issues are causing the financial stress because I can't work as many hours or I can't do what I once did, so now I gotta find a new job to try to make ends meet. I mean, you hear those stories all the time as well. the other thing is is the word overload. doesn't diagnose every mental health condition. And I think that's important too. it reminds people that struggling does not make them defective. And I use that word because that's exactly how I felt. I felt I was a defective individual going through what I went through. And you hear that terminology a lot when you're talking to people that are going through a hard time, that word defective. Asking for support, asking for help is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength. some people view it as a failure because they think that they're weak individuals is 100% not the case. Again, I think that society as a whole, or at least a lot of the households that we grew up in, and we're I know we're a little older here, you know, is about all about man up, not showing your feelings. you know, figure it out yourself. And it's just been ingrained in our head that we feel that if we ask for help in any way, it doesn't even need necessarily be mental health. It could be financial help, that it's a sign of weakness and a sign of failure. There's nothing wrong with asking for help. And Another sign of strength is knowing that you just can't do this alone. because you know, as individuals. you find a way to figure stuff out, And you you know whether it's professionally, whether it's being a parent, whether it's being a good child to your adult parents that might be dealing with some health issues or what have you. And you've kind of worked your way out of every situation and now you feel that you know that you you can't do that in this particular case and you feel again like a failure, Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. I actually want to touch on one of the words that that you used and and to make a point about it because it's eerily similar. Adults tend to use the word defective a lot, and it's not just you that I've heard that from, but a lot of adults use that word. Isn't it interesting that the children that you hear that are going through mental challenges feel like they're broken? Almost the same thing, right? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): It's like a synonym, basically, is what it is. Yep. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Exactly. Yeah. But I mean this just goes to show, a lot of times children who are going through periods of time where they feel broken end up being adults who one day feel defective and it's they don't realize that once upon a time they went from one to the other. So but mental strength is not pretending that nothing affects you. Mental strength is not forcing yourself to smile when everything inside you is falling apart. Sometimes strength is admitting that something is affecting you before it completely overwhelms you. It may mean making an appointment or setting a boundary or telling someone just that you're not okay. Accepting treatment, accepting help, accepting someone to stay with you, or just finally allowing yourself to receive the support that you would never hesitate to offer someone else. Marc makes that point a lot, is the fact that. If you talk to the mirror in a way that you would talk to somebody that you care about, you're most likely going to really try to understand what you're going through and not sit in judgment of yourself because you would not do that to somebody else. Marc has said that many times. So I'm I'm I'm stealing from him. But this can be especially difficult for people who are always helping others. Their identity may be connected to being the strong or dependable person. They may fear becoming a burden or believe that receiving help means losing control. But remaining productive does not mean someone is not struggling. Strength has to include the willingness to receive support. So the second theme we're recognizing is turning science into hope. I like the way these two themes work together. We should not have to choose between listening to lived experience and respecting professional knowledge. So, Marc, How do you think lived experience and professional experience can work together without one dismissing or overshadowing the other? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well I mean as alluded to earlier, I mean I think you absolutely need to have some professional guidance, you know, whether it's a therapist or psychiatrist or go to treatment or what have you. I mean, I think that you know, professionals are bringing education, they're bringing clinical training, they're bringing research, they're bringing diagnosis, they're bringing treatment. but In a perfect world, you kinda have the dichotomy where you got the professional experience with individuals that got their live life experiences, because the people that got the live life experience, they have a true understanding of what you're going through and and what and what receiving care feels like. And and they're able to be in a position to possibly give you some of that care that you need to get you on the other side and get you out of that crisis or out of that funk that you're in, if you will. Lived experience can reveal barriers or missing pieces that are not always obvious from the outside. I Just from my experience when I talk to individuals, I pick up on certain things. I can pick up certain things literally from somebody's text dialogue or the length of time it takes them to respond to me by text. Okay, or maybe the lack, the the lack of response if I leave them a voicemail message, or just some words that they actually use in conversation with me, which might be words that I actually use with individuals when I was going through the struggle. And by doing that, I'll slow down the conversation with them and really kind of dive deeper into what they just said to get a clear understanding of what they said. And a lot of times they open up a little bit more and divulge more information. and that has helped me a lot when I'm working with individuals, specifically like on the recovery and the sobriety side. both perspectives are important. You know, I don't I don't think it's a competition. I don't think one should be silencing the other. There is value in both. A lot of times you need both. And I think a perfect situation would be some type of collaboration rather than a competition. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah, I I smiled when you said the the one thing about how you have that kind of intuition that you do. Because I'll tell you what, Marc and I say this all the time. We are not what we would consider finished products, but we also don't believe that a finished product exists. So obviously we struggle with things too. And there are times where Marc will call me either before work. or after work for our little team huddle as as we like to call it. And he'll be like, how's it going? I'll be like, be like, yeah, I'm I'm fine. He's like, no you're not. What's up? So if you guys caught me smiling during his thought, that was why. So he he's pretty darn good at it. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): just to add just to add Lib there a little bit. I mean, I'm hypersensitive to things, but I'm hypersensitive to things because I know how I was. I mean, that's just really what it comes down to. You know, and then doing the work and seeing patterns and seeing similarities with text and with conversations and so forth. One, it helped me to realize I wasn't like this rare bird on the island. It's everyday stuff. And two, I and I've said this so many times on our podcast, I do focus on similarities, not differences. I mean everybody's story is different. I get that, understand that and respect that, but There's always similarities in everyone's story when we're talking about this stuff. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. But in reflecting on kind of the the difference between the live life experience help and the professional help and and how they can coexist, a personal story can be powerful, but one person's experience is not a universal treatment plan. At the same time, research and professionals' credentials should never become reasons to ignore the person sitting in front of us. The strongest approach is collaboration. When people feel like active participants in their care or support, They regain a sense of dignity and control. They may become more comfortable speaking honestly about what is and what is not helping. They are recognized as whole people rather than problems that need to be managed. So I think that's really important. the World Mental Health Day theme is real change. That is where awareness becomes action, which certainly you heard us talk about at length through our summit. Real change can happen at many different levels. It can mean improving access to mental health care. It can mean including people with lived experience when programs and policies are developed. It can mean training leaders. Educators, coaches, parents, and community members to recognize when someone needs help. But real change can also begin inside one relationship. It can happen when someone tells you they are struggling and you respond without judgment. It also happens when you follow up the next day. It even happens when you learn that a person's withdrawal or exhaustion or anger or inconsistency may have. A bigger story behind it than you realized. It happens when we stop asking people to speak up without first asking ourselves whether we've created a safe place for them to actually tell us the truth. So, Marc, what is one realistic change each one of us can make in the way that we respond to somebody who may be struggling? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Well, instead of giving advice, how about asking a question and allowing us time for an honest answer? Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Right on. Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): That's number one, right? listen without interrupting. Or redirecting the conversation towards yourself. Certainly don't make diagnoses or make assumptions of what the individual is going through. I think it's important to ask the individual what kind of support they want or what they're looking for. I think that's very important. I think it's important to learn like what type of resources are available. I mean, there's so many different support groups that people can gain access to. know where your local crisis center is at. Like we have one here in DuPage County that's open twenty-four seven, three sixty-five. I mean, there's just so many resources that are out there and when you're having conversations with people, they don't even know those resources exist. See if you have them in your back pocket and say, Okay, these these are these are places that you can get some additional support. I think the individual receiving on the other end is really gonna be thankful for that. You mentioned earlier about following up on the original conversation. I think that's so important. I mean, the conversation shouldn't just end with the initial conversation. You know, send them a text, leave them a voicemail, keep that connection in place. Let them know that you're there for them if you need anything, if you need to have another conversation. That is all stuff that is very important for the individual that's going through what they're going through. and you know, let them respond to you in their time frame. You know, don't be pushy, but at the same time let them know that you're there for them. And you know, do not wait for a visible crisis before checking on somebody. You know, don't let the situation get to the point where it's worse. I mean, I just think periodic check-ins is important as opposed to not talking to somebody for a month, several weeks after they disclose some information to you and now all of a sudden they're in a deeper depressed state or they're even more addicted to whatever they're dealing with and and now they're in a much tougher situation. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): Yeah. I I think that's all tremendous, tremendous advice and some how-tos on how to deal with people that you believe that are struggling. So that's so important. So that that's great. So through this episode, we definitely want to leave everyone with something practical. So recognizing World Mental Health Day does not require a major public gesture. It can begin with one honest conversation. Think about someone in your life who may be caring more than they are showing. Not necessarily someone in an obvious crisis, but it could just be the person who always says they're fine, the person who tends to take care of everyone else. The person who has become quieter. The person who keeps showing up and performing, but does not seem like themselves. Reach out to that person. Ask how they are really doing. Then give them enough time and safety to answer. You do not need to have the perfect words, and you certainly don't need to solve everything. You can listen, believe them, and help them connect with additional support when it's needed. So Marc, as we begin to wrap up, what is one thought or one challenge you would most want people to take away from this conversation? Marc Rogala (Co-Founder): Okay, you've you've you've heard me say this before, that I believe that stuff that's festering on the inside, stuff that's being kept on the inside, is like a cancer. And it's gonna lead to anxiety, a lot of times leads to depression, a lot of times leads to addictive tendencies, if you will. I'm a firm believer that real change often begins with one person feeling safe enough. To be able to get their entire truth out there, unleash all that stuff on the inside, and that's where healing begins. Eric said this on a podcast, several podcasts ago. You have to reveal to heal. But in order to reveal, They got to feel comfortable enough with you to be able for them to be able to reveal. Kelsey Dunbar (Co-Founder): I think that that's great advice, and I think that's definitely a challenge that everybody can can step up to. So I think that's actually an important place for us to end this conversation for today. Real change does not always begin with a major program, policy, or announcement. Sometimes it begins when one person realizes they no longer have to carry everything alone. So World Mental Health Day lasts for one day. Mental illness awareness week lasts for one week. But people live with these experiences every day of the year. So let's continue talking about mental health. But let's also become better listeners. Let's respect lived experience. Let's support research, treatment, and professional care. Let's replace judgment with curiosity, silence with conversation, and awareness without action with meaningful change. Most importantly, let's remember that a person is more than a diagnosis. They're more than their hardest moment, and more than what they're currently carrying. If you are struggling, Asking for help is not a failure or a sign of having a lack of strength. In the United States, you can call or text 988 to reach the suicide and crisis lifeline. You do not need to be suicidal to contact 988. Support is available for mental health distress, substance use concerns, emotional distress, or when you simply need someone to talk with. If you or someone else is in immediate danger, You can also call 911 or go to the nearest emergency room. You are not broken. You may be carrying more than you were ever meant to carry alone. So thank you for joining Marc and me for this important conversation. And until next time, keep rebuilding, keep moving forward, and remember that fulfillment is not found in avoiding the hard parts of life. It is found in discovering who you can become through them. We will see you next time on Rebuild and Fulfill. Take care.