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The Royal Family · To All the Men I've Tolerated Before

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Hey Tolerators, It's me Natalie with your before show updates on all things Team
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Tolerator. So we are sitting on the January, February March side of life,
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and what does that look like? Well, it looks like The Misogyny
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Meltdown over on Patreon is well underway. That is a new series and show
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that I am producing for Patreon members only because there is a lot of scripting
0:32
and a lot of vulnerability going on. I've already segen a song, I've
0:37
already produced to skit, I'm already writing comedy. So go take a chance
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on the Misogyny Meltdown in the way that to all the men I've tolerated before,
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is expanding and evolving with the link in the show notes. For January,
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we celebrated the Misogynist of the Year Awards ceremony. For February we are
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focusing on the concept of love and self love being part of the resistance.
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And in March, why yes, We're still going to do seasonal things with
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celebrating International Women's Month, and all of that will be wrapped up into our
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new variety show, Misogyny Meltdown. I cannot wait for you to check it.
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Out Ay Tolerators listens to all the men I've tolerated before with Anthony Katona,
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your weekly look at everyday misogyny. I have a new friend today.
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There have been a lot of new friends for all the men I've tolerated before
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in twenty twenty four. Kristen is a pop culture critic, a oil watcher,
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and health journalist. She hosts The Daily Veil, a podcast at dissects
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and laughs at the tabloid news and also the best person that I have met
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so far through our friend Chris de Rosa. Oh stop it, because christ
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is all the best, all the best people. And today we are finally
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doing the episode I've been secretly craving to do. We're going to talk about
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misogyny and how it relates to the royal family. Thank you so much for
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this lovely opportunity. Oh my gosh, I am so excited to talk about
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this, and honestly, I think you are the first podcast host who's invited
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me on to talk exclusively about this topic. I've talked a lot about racism,
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I've talked a lot about classism, I've talked about colonialism. But misogyny
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is real with these people and I'm so excited to talk about it with you
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because you're so smart and funny and you're you're you're just the best person at
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this conversation. So thank you, Oh my goodness, thank you. I
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find that so hard to believe that no one has ever went into at least
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take one look at this when they're inviting you onto a show. Because every
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episode I've listened to The Daily Fail, you have made a point or your
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co host has made a point to be like, this is something that they
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do to women with like acitolized w yes. And I'm not saying misogyny doesn't
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come up in various conversations. I'm saying the fact that that is the main
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reason we're having this conversation, and I love it. I love that that's
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what you want to talk about today. Well, let's have the listeners get
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to know you a little bit more. Could you give us a background on
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how one becomes a Royal Watcher, because I know that I am a Royal
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Watcher, but I'm not a very official Royal Watcher. It's hard to be
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somebody who lives in our world or who engages with pop culture. It's hard
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to be that kind of person. And not have a little bit of exposure
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to the Royals. It's kind of like I see it similarly to the Kardashians.
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Whether you want to or not, you're keeping up with them if you
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follow pop culture, right, I keep up with the Kardashians whether I want
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to or not, and I kind of see the Royals the same way.
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If you like pop culture in any way, you can't look at a magazine
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cover, a blog, a twitter feed, Instagram without getting some sort of
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idea of what's happening with them. You know, bits and pieces of this
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scandal or that scandal. We as a society, even those who don't follow
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pop culture, we have ideas of who the good guys and the bad guys
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are. We know who the queen is, we know who Camilla is,
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we know who Diana is, we know who the major players are. Right,
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And I definitely grew up in a household that followed those things. My
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mom was an angli phile. My nana read the tabloids. I learned to
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read with the help of the National Inquirer and Star as a little kid,
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and the first time, as a wee little kid, I even saw a
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wedding cartoon live action real life or otherwise was watching Princess Die and Charles get
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married on TV, or I should say recap sub it, because I don't
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think I was up at like two in the morning watching that as a little
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kid. But so the Royals were always kind of in the backdrop of my
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life, and I continued to follow them the older I got, the you
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know, I did a study abroad in England at one point, and I
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got to see the last royal engagement in which Princess Die and Charles attended together.
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That was the fiftieth anniversary of VJ Day, and I followed them closely
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just as a hobby, along with all the other celebrities I watched. And
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then when I was working in public radio, I was a pop culture producer
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and I just happened to be, you know, there at the same time
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when William and Kate got engaged, and I was fortunate enough to cover all
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the street parties that were happening in New York City and celebration of their marriage,
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and from there I just continued covering them here and there. And then
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when Megan and Harry got engaged, I ended up hosting a podcast called When
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Meghan Met Harry and that podcast began right around the time they got engaged,
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and it culminated with my co host and I actually attending their wedding in Windsor,
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and that show really resulted in me being more regularly on the scene as
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a Royal watcher. And ever since that podcast, I've been many times more
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times than I can count on the BBC, the CBC, CNN, many
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print outlets. I'd been in maybe somewhere between a half a dozen and a
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dozen documentaries at this point on TLC, on different networks, NBC and so
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on. So I probably give somewhere between oh gosh, during a really busy
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year, at least fifty interviews a year now about the Royals. I am
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just so geeked because it's so funny because my mom had to explain to me
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in my twenties that I do not, in fact have memories of Charles and
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Diana's wedding, like I believe that I have memories, like I also was
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very involved, and she goes, no, You've just always have been watching,
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like h ones, I love the seventies or I love the eighties,
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and she goes, you watch a lot of pop culture focused TV, therefore
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you believe you've seen these things and are an expert. She did let me
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have Diana's funeral. She goes, you probably do have memories for when Princess
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Diana died. And then in college, we did stay up till three am
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for William and Kate's wedding and we went to our senior banquet was that night.
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And we went to senior banquet in full like formal wear and fascinators.
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And when people people were like or why, and I was like, it
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is the royal wedding day, and this is just a blip on what I
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have to be involved in today. It was a big deal at the time.
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I mean, I think a lot of people forget because Kate does walk
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the line. She's very conventional. She you know, she doesn't make waves.
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She's the most I mean this in not an insulting way. I don't
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mean it in that way. But she's the least controversial princess they ever could
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have hoped for, right, and I think we forget that. At the
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time, it was a big deal. She technically, while being filthy rich,
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was not technically aristocracy. She was the first college educated future queen.
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It was a big deal at the time. And it was the closest we
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had seen really to This is kind of like a Cinderella story because even though
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the press liked to present Diana as if she was a Cinderella story, she
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was aristocracy. She was, you know, kind of related to the royals
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already. You know, it's you know, she was a very very distant
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cousin of all of them anyway, And whereas Kate, she was quote middle
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class, yes, a multimillionaire, but still, you know, not old
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money and so on. And it was a big deal that she was university
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educated. I know that I've talked about this before on another podcast where we
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were covering the tutors, but I believe that Diana was a direct descendant,
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or at least a cousin of Anne Berlin. Am I getting that correct?
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Correct? You know? I think that might be right. I forget how
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far back everybody goes and who's exactly related to who? But yes, and
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one thing I also love, just as a side note, not everybody knows
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this, but Princess Diye's grandmother was an American. She was a dollar bride
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or what did they call them, a dollar princess. I'm not sure if
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you know that term, but she was somebody who was her grandmother was part
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of the old money set. Oh, I'm sorry, it might be her
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great grandmother. Her family was part of the new money set in the US,
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you know, like the Vanderbilts, the Fisks, all of that new
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money and a lot of those people who were trying to social climb the new
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money and weren't being accepted by the old money in the States, like the
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Astors. They would marry off their daughters to people who were titled in the
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UK, and that way they could get some sort of prestige like oh,
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I'm titled. And then these old lords and dukes that they would marry just
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because they lived a life of leisure and never made money themselves. They needed
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that influx of money to keep their castles afloat and so on, and to
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keep their lifestyles going. So Princess died descended from some you know, some
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of that new money from the US. She is part of a marriica.
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My goodness, I've never known that even with the release of that new Prime
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show The Buccaneers and when they're that's the whole plot of the show is English
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aristocle. I see coming over to get American brides guys. Never Ye,
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that's fascinating. I oh, thank you so much for that little to bed.
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Yes, I think that sometimes the Brits wonder like, oh, why
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do Americans even care about all of this stuff? And it's like, well,
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we are all related to each other, we all intermarry each other.
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Yes, we kicked you out of the Us, all of you, but
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we still you know, we're still related, We're still cousins. Well,
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and it is you use the term Cinderella when you're a little girl growing up
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in America, and if you were, especially a millennial little girl growing up
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growing up in America. My sister jokes that everyone goes through these three phases,
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and I just never dropped the she goes she or she will say she
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goes. Every young girl had one of these phases. They had a tutor
12:05
phase, they had a princess die phase, and they had a Greek mythology
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phase. You grabbed on to all three and then you made them your entire
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personality, and I was like, yeah, I did, and thank you.
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But it's hard to it's hard to avoid. It's really presented to us
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from a very young age as a fantasy that we as girls should latch onto.
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It was the closest thing we had to Disney livelihood. And but then
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you become a woman in your thirties and you turn on Netflix and you go
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I don't remember Charles being that good looking, and I doubt he was that
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kind or romantic. You know, when I think of Charles, I think
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of a guy who, you know, he was in his thirties and he
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got married to a girl who was, you know, just a few days
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into being twenty years old. When they got engaged, she was a teenager.
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They'd only gone out on maybe somewhere between half a dozen and a dozen
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dates at that point. They got engaged when she was a teenager and he
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was in his thirties, and then they got married, And I think,
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you know what, if I had anybody in my life who was a nineteen
13:20
year old girl and a thirty two year old dude was dating her, I'd
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be like, I don't know about that. I don't know if this is
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the great romance. You're not old enough to go to a bar in England.
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You are, you're old enough to go to a bar when you're nineteen,
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but you know, in a lot of the world you're not, and
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you're essentially a kid like last year you were in high school, right,
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And so I have a personal issue with that. I know other people are
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like, oh, it's only like thirteen years difference, but to me,
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it's like, that's that's a big age difference. I always get hung up
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on the bath because a thirteen year age difference might not be the biggest thing
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in the world when you were twenty seven, but when you're nineteen and that's
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when your relationship starts, then I'm like, okay, But then you were
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twenties or robbed of you honing a personality and gaining speed towards what you would
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actually want and what your values are going to be, because now you're a
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wife, and you're a wife in the royal family. And I'm sure that
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she had her own pressures in her own family about what, you know,
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the rules of her the roles in her life were going to be. But
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to then add on, I couldn't imagine being a queen at twenty I'll just
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say it, like, yeah, on the world stage, being probably the
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most photographed woman in the world at the time, and you're literally not old
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enough to rent a car yet. For another five years and oh, oh
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gosh, now you're a mom too. Oh, now you're a mom again,
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and all of that happening with all of this weight on your shoulders.
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To be presenting what Britishness is to the world, to be representing the monarchy,
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to be representing history as well as fairy tale. It's a lot of
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work to do all of that, and to do it while you're married to
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a man who is actually not even in love with you but in love with
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somebody else. It just sounds terrible. It's a terrible thing. It's like
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the worst version of I'm not sure if this happened to you, but a
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lot of women, including myself, we dated duds when we were teenagers,
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right, We dated guys who didn't treat us well. We put up with
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a lot of stuff because, oh, we should just try harder, I
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should be a nice girl. Oh a boyfriend's a great thing to have.
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What can I do to make this work? And meanwhile the guy's being a
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jerk, or maybe he's running around on us, and she is doing that
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only on the world stage in one of the oldest institutions in the world.
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So I think, oh my god, she's like my whole college year,
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my whole college life experience times a gazillion. And it's not something that she
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can just run away from or dump that guy or just bitch to whoever she
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wants to about how shitty it is, because anytime she opens her mouth,
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she might be you know, recorded, somebody might be spying on her.
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She has to be careful about who she you know, vents to or seeks
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advice from. It's not as simple as the rest of us when we're that
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age in university. Yeah, I call that effect of dating the duat that's
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the closest one to you, the armslength effect where it's like, oh,
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why have you been dating him so long? And it's like, well,
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he's right, he's right there, Like I don't. I don't even have
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to leave the room to try and find someone else, because look, there
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he is. And it does happen a lot when you're a teenager, because
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you're sitting in desks in rows near one another. It's all about proximity.
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Yes, yeah, it's proximity. And it's also that we haven't learned how
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to stand up for ourselves yet. We also haven't learned what we are worthy
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of. Necessarily. I think that there is a point when we're all young
17:17
children and we're told a lot of us if we're lucky, that, oh,
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you can do anything, you can do it, you're capable, just
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try harder. And then we enter adolescence and that gradually starts getting beaten out
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of us. No, you're too ugly, No, you're to this,
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you're to that, you're not enough of this, and it starts to get
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beaten out of us, and products get sold to us to fix things that
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are supposedly wrong with us. We're supposedly the wrong size, our skin is
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wrong, our hair is wrong. Everything's wrong with us. We're too loud
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or we're too quiet, We're to this or to that, And I think
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it becomes easy for us to not know our worth because that little kids self
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worth that, you know, the three year old who jumps off the top
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of the stairs and yells, I can do it, look at me fly.
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That little kid has been beaten down and beaten to death. And so
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by the time we do start dating, it's easy to think, oh,
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I'm lucky just to have someone, even if he treats me like crap.
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That's very well said and something that has been discussed on this podcast. Almost
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every episode. It's amazing how we'll be talking about something that you would think
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has nothing to do with dating. It could be women's health care or something,
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and it all relates back to, well, I never pushed against the
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doctor because I haven't been trained to push against people and to ask for what
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I want. And then an anecdote comes up about your dating life or the
18:45
way that someone talked to you as a kid. And when Diana did arrive
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at the age or at the bravery or the maturity to push back, she
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wasn't pushing back against her in laws. She was pushing against the institute shit
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and begging reporters to let her sons walk into their first day of school without
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being bothered. The consequences of, you know, putting up with or not
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knowing her worth were enormous, and you know they I'm not trying to minimize
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what the rest of us went through when we were teenagers are in our early
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twenties, because a lot of us went through just absolutely terrible, reprehensible things.
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But she was going through it while people were profiting off of it and
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eating it up, and millions of dollars were being made with each photograph that
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was being taken of her. It was not on a level that most of
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us deal with, where what we're dealing with is also commodified in that way.
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And when you start to put out these defense mechanisms like believing that your
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phone is being tapped, or being really choosy about who you're sharing things with,
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or not writing anything down or not sharing things with people, it's another
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And I think we saw this with Britney Spears's memoir and her father. That
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also, the way that you've become almost paranoid about your own existence and what
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is actually going on around you becomes another tool in the tool bell that they
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used to discredit you to be like, well, if you were smiling more
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or warmer or whatever, Charles would be happy to be on this yacht with
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you. Yeah. And I think it's interesting you brought up the word paranoia,
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because paranoia, to me, usually means that it's something that's in your
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head and it's not based in real fact or doesn't have a foundation. But
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in both Britney spears case and Diana's case, it was not paranoia. They
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were actually being bugged at all times, they were actually being surveilled, They
20:56
actually had invasions of privacy as part of their daily life. I mean,
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I just think about the fact that you aren't even you know, necessarily in
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your own house alone ever. If you are Diana, somebody is always coming
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in to change the sheets or draw the curtains or this or that. Who's
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overhearing just very simple things like you singing to yourself in the shower in the
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morning. You don't have any privacy ever in your own home. Mind you,
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it's a castle, but it's still your home, right, Yeah,
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And the castle wasn't big enough for her to escape people overhearing things or misinterpreting
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things. That's a very good point. I should have said. I should
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come up with a term for it, like assumed paranoia or weaponized paranoia or
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something like that, because you're right it is. We use the term paranoia,
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and it's like, but don't even worry, that's not even happening.
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You're being paranoid. And they were actually being victimized by their own circumstances.
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When it comes to the royal family and reporting on them or watching over them,
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there's no way to sugarcoat that. There is a line drawn about the
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protections that are allowed to the men, the male members of the royal family
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that aren't always allowed it to the female members of the royal family. You
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know, that's an interesting point when I think of, for example, Prince
22:34
Andrew, Prince Andrew who we have to be careful about how we talk about
22:41
him on certain outlets. When I'm on British outlets, for example, I
22:45
referred to him as a person of interest in the Jeffrey Epstein case and they
22:49
told me they couldn't use that term there or they would be the victims of
22:53
a lawsuit that outlet. So it's really interesting how the UK outlets deal with
23:02
Prince Andrew because they can be sued by the Royal family at any time over
23:06
using terms that we in the US use freely. Person of interest. I
23:10
didn't say he absolutely raped teenagers. I didn't say he absolutely did that.
23:14
I said he's a person of interest in that case. So I think it's
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interesting that as far as how he has been protected, it includes by the
23:22
press in the UK also as well as his family. And to go back
23:27
to how his family has protected him, who paid for the Virginia Jeffrey case
23:33
to be settled? Who paid those millions of dollars while it was the royal
23:37
family paid for it right his mother because that case was conveniently made to go
23:45
away with money. And I you know, I know some people would say,
23:49
oh, well, you know, the queen, that was her money.
23:52
She can do what she wants to with the money. But she chose
23:56
to protect him with the money. And is the money ever one hundred percent
24:00
the royal families when the royal family has made so much money pillaging, colonizing,
24:07
being a landlord not paying taxes. Charles, for example, did not
24:11
have to pay any inheritance tax after his mother died, and the rest of
24:15
us we have to pay inheritance tax if any of us are fortunate enough to
24:19
inherit something when a parent dies. It's not a given. A lot of
24:23
us will never inherit anything when a parent dies, but when we do,
24:27
more often than not, we're not exempt like Charles is, from paying taxes
24:33
on those inheritances. AnyWho, to go back to my point, somebody paid
24:37
to make that case go away, and that somebody was the Queen, and
24:42
indirectly that was the public that paid to have that case go away. And
24:48
so I think that's an unfair use of money because did the public really want
24:55
that case to just go away. Did the taxpayers really want that just to
24:57
disappear? All the places that have been pillaged or colonized or been part of
25:03
the slave trade, did they want that case to just disappear? I would
25:07
say most of us didn't. The US was once a colony, and most
25:11
people I know in the US think it's reprehensible that the royal family just paid
25:15
to make that goal away. They paid to protect And yeah, well,
25:19
and when it comes to the press, the press in England is known to
25:25
be like the press with a capital P and an exclamation point at the end,
25:30
to where you know, they're constantly on top of the royal family,
25:36
on top of celebrities in England, writing at all times, which we do
25:41
it too. But I remember growing up knowing that there was a difference between
25:45
our tabloids and their tabloids and what was allowed from their tabloids. So for
25:52
him to have just kind of a blanket protection from the press, that says
25:56
a lot. And I don't believe I can think of an example where someone
26:04
else in the royal family has been offered that. And maybe it's because my
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history is escaping me, but I can just think of Queen Elizabeth's sister Margaret
26:18
how and her reputation and exactly what her reputation was. And they had all
26:23
of the money in the world to make sure that whatever Margaret was doing socially,
26:29
even if she was loud about it, they could have put it to
26:33
bed, because they've put other things to bed that have been enlightened. And
26:37
they just went, well, Margaret should know better and maybe she'll be Hey,
26:41
she drank, she partied, she chased the wrong men. Yeah,
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there was definitely that reputation that was out there. To bring it to more
26:51
modern times, what have they done to protect Megan Markele. I mean,
26:55
look at the plethora of news stories about Megan Markele from very early on,
27:02
from the time the engagement was first announced, from the time there were rumors
27:06
of Harry and Megan first dating. I mean, there was that famous Saravine
27:11
Daily News headline that said that she had a niggling feeling about her. There
27:15
were a lot of dog whistle headlines. There were headlines about her being straight
27:19
out of Compton. There were attempts to link her to Gie hottists in various
27:26
stories in the tabloid press. I could go on and on and on.
27:30
There's a gazillion examples. Also, many many stories that deliberately pit her against
27:36
Kate Middleton, almost always with the slant that Megan Markle was breaking protocol for
27:42
doing something that they celebrated Kate doing separately. And I was part of an
27:51
in depth piece comparing side by side headlines in Insider looking at that. Eventually
27:59
there was a much big her story, and I believe it was BuzzFeed that
28:02
just showed like one hundred side by side headlines like look at Megan Markle,
28:04
who was trying to destroy the climate. It was about drug, climate change,
28:08
a lot of other things because of her beloved avocados. And then side
28:11
by side there was a story about Kate Middleton and how William loves her so
28:18
much that it's her favorite pregnancy treat and he always brings her avocados. And
28:22
so they were just like all of these stories that were obviously showing that the
28:29
press was choosing sides that we presented in that piece, and we could put
28:34
out another piece like that every six months and never run out of headlines showing
28:40
how Megan Markle is terrible and how Kate is good and wholesome Kate is the
28:44
right kind of princess. Megan is the wrong kind of princess. And so,
28:48
you know, a lot of the misogyny is, you know, they
28:52
protect men more than women, but they also protect certain women in the institution
28:56
more than other women. So there's that to be considered. Yea, because
29:00
we go round and round talking about how you can't have one oppression without looking
29:04
to your right and going wait, is that also classism or racism or any
29:10
of agism over there? Oh? Look, it is right there. They've
29:14
all been partying together, yes, Oh yeah, they love having that party.
29:18
It's the worst party in the whole It's the worst party in the world.
29:21
And you know, Megan has There are people who will talk to me
29:27
about Megan Mercle like she has personally come over to their home and like peed
29:36
all over the floor or something. And I'm like, at what point did
29:41
you do an in depth analysis on Megan Mercle and decided that she was at
29:45
fault here and also trying to take down a monarchy that we technically have no
29:52
part in. But you're really upset about that. I go, she doesn't
29:56
really have the time to take down a monarchy or the resources, No She's
30:03
just one person. She's just one person, and it's amazing how much she
30:07
gets blamed for and how Harry is essentially either presented as a hostage in the
30:14
situation or just invisible or they let him off the hook. And when I
30:18
say let him off the hook, he himself has said it was my decision
30:22
to step back from being a senior royal. I was not stepping back from
30:27
my family. I was stepping back from the family job, okay, the
30:30
family business. And that was my choice to step back from the family business.
30:34
As I am the one who was born into the family business. I
30:37
was not pressured to do this. This was a decision I made. And
30:41
it does not seem to matter how many times he has said that was his
30:44
decision. Somehow, Megan is a mastermind who has forced him into this life.
30:48
And he is somebody who, despite being almost forty years old, has
30:52
no free will oohe and she wrote the statement for him, and oh yes,
30:59
and he's too to think for himself, and she, yeah, I
31:02
mean all of this stuff, like, you know what, I think you're
31:07
giving her a little too much credit for this. Well, and it's never
31:10
too much credit, Like she's a great mom, or she's been able to
31:14
raise two kids during all of this, or she's done a great job as
31:18
a self made business woman. Yeah, there are always like, oh,
31:22
look it up, the charitable work that she did long before she ever even
31:25
met Harry. None of that gets celebrated as too much. No, now
31:27
they it's always she's exhausted Harry to the point where he won't even go over
31:33
there for Christmas because he is exhausted, And that plays a lot into family
31:40
dynamics that I see over here. I was shocked, and well into my
31:45
twenties, the first time a woman's told me, oh, no, I'm
31:49
not going over there because I really don't have a relationship with my in laws.
31:55
My husband knows exactly why, and what they've said about me to me
32:00
or to other family members that have you know, ratted them out, and
32:06
I'm done. But I allowed them to have a relationship with my child because
32:10
I don't believe she's old enough to make that decision yet. And I thought,
32:15
you can just not have a relationship with people even though you know them
32:21
through family or marriage or jobs or any of it. She went, you
32:28
sure can, that's true. And obviously, in Harry's case, he you
32:37
know, he was just over in the UK seeing his father after his cancer
32:42
diagnosis. He is still capable of getting on a plane when he wants to
32:46
and doing what he feels like. She is not holding him prisoner in any
32:51
way, And if she doesn't want to spend time with them, that's also
32:54
within her rights. And the same would be true on the floor side.
33:00
If for some reason there was something happening where Harry no longer wanted to spend
33:04
time with any of Meghan's family, that would also be allowed. You know,
33:07
we are free agents. We are humans who are allowed to make those
33:12
decisions for ourselves of who makes us feel safe, who doesn't make us feel
33:16
safe, who hurts us, and how much distance or closeness we want to
33:20
have with people. Right. I think one of the things that always touched
33:22
me most about when they were covering Megan early on in the marriage or maybe
33:28
the engagement, was how they would talk about her family like they like the
33:32
Royal family in it of itself is a very complicated family that has had a
33:37
lot of complicated things happen to them, and they'd be like, oh,
33:44
these clout chasers in Meghan's family. People are just coming out of the woodwork
33:49
now now that Megan might be close to royalty and it's like, well,
33:54
that's happened before. And as far as the clout chasers in Meghan's family,
34:01
the tabloid press has been instrumental in that they courted Megan's dad who fell into
34:08
the trap and chose never to leave the trap of being paid off for you
34:13
know, family photos of his daughter or to be photographed reading guide books to
34:19
England were like the first ones that he was photographed, you know, planning
34:22
to go to the wedding and so on. And the tabloid press, we
34:27
cannot underestimate how powerful they are. There's something called the Royal Roda, which
34:31
is the press pool that works closely with the royal family. They get invited
34:37
to special events, they are tipped off on certain stories. They work in
34:43
cooperation with the family as an extension of their pr team. Essentially, certain
34:49
members of the royal family or of certain houses will tattle on other members of
34:53
the royal family in order to get attention off of them. And this is
34:57
something that's been well understood for a very lo long time. It's something that
35:00
Harry explains in great detail in his book Spare but you know, Harry's book
35:06
is not the only source that explains how this works. This is something that's
35:08
well understood by people who've been part of the ROTA over the years, and
35:13
so on. Omascovie, who is a Royal journalist, has also written extensively
35:17
about it. Lots of journalists have written about the Royal Rota. It's well
35:22
understood and so you know, the Royal Roda in exchange for access to the
35:28
Royal family, they write certain stories that make the Royal family proud or happy,
35:32
or that you know, they cooperate with certain members of the family and
35:37
this relationship is so tight and so important that even Camilla, her head of
35:43
PR is a former editor of the Daily Mail. This is not something that
35:49
they just work with. It's something that they actually hire people from to help
35:53
them to spin things even by It's like all of those crime shows where they
35:58
are like, will just hire the hacker to teach us how to hack and
36:01
to yu and to catch all the hackers. We'll just make them on our
36:07
side, exactly exactly. A big theme on the show is that sometimes misogyny
36:14
is so subtle and so every day that because you're living within it, you
36:17
don't actually realize that that misogyny is so ingrained in an institution and it's so
36:25
normalized and lasting that again, you're just living and not in one day you'll
36:31
just get tilt your head and go, huh. I don't know if that's
36:36
how I should have been treated during my American history class. What kind of
36:40
things within a royal structure or a noble family structure allow misogyny to just be
36:47
kind of naturally accepted and bred within the royal family or community. I'm thinking
36:57
of how important male heirs used to be. Yeah, and that was up
37:02
until very very very recently. William and Kate they decided, along with the
37:09
rest of the family, when they were expecting I think it's when they were
37:14
expecting George, their first, or maybe it was when they were expecting their
37:19
second, when they were expecting Charlotte, that they no longer wanted the line
37:24
of succession to go from mail to mail to male and they wanted it to
37:30
be birth order, regardless of sex or gender. And so that was very
37:36
recent. Charlotte's not even ten years old. This is very very recent.
37:38
This is well within our adult lifetimes that this change happened. This is very
37:45
new, but line of succession up until you know, very recently was males,
37:52
and the fact that the queen ended up being the queen was only because
37:57
all the other male options were exhausted at that point and things kind of went
38:02
out of order when when Wallace Simpson and Edward fell in love and you know,
38:08
he abdicated, So then little Princess Elizabeth's father, George, ended up
38:15
being the king. And then when he died, Oh no, he only
38:21
has two daughters. He doesn't have any sons. Oh no, what's going
38:24
to happen now, Well, one of the daughters has to be on the
38:28
throne now, and it's only because oh oh, he had no boys,
38:32
God forbid. And that's how that happened for pretty much all of the history
38:38
of the royal family. You know, you only end up with the queen
38:43
when you run out of boys, So things have only changed recently. So,
38:47
yeah, that's an excellent example of how it's built into the system.
38:52
The misogyny is built into this stay. I couldn't help but laugh so hard
38:57
whenever on that Selina show, the Crown Queen Elizabeth would get so adamant that
39:04
no one was allowed to get a divorce, even Anne even Anne, who
39:07
was pretty calm compared to everyone else, no divorces. She's like, we
39:13
are the head of the Church of England. We are the closest thing that
39:16
our people have to God himself, and you're trying to get divorced. And
39:21
I would just laugh and go, because that's what Keen Henry was all about
39:25
when it came to the Church of England, making sure that marriage was sanctioned
39:31
and a holy and last state. That was it. Henry's whole deal.
39:37
Oh, he loved the sanctity of edge. He loved it so much he'd
39:40
beheaded it over and over again. Yeah, and I would. I would
39:44
just laugh because and I would say something completely rude and crass and go.
39:49
Your great grandfather formed the Church of England because he was I'll say it the
39:54
nice way. He was sick of, like not getting past third base,
40:00
truly bored of not kidding past third base. With Anne Boleyn's that's how it's
40:07
been depicted to me. Maybe no one caught you up on it, but
40:12
even the idea of I think there's so much more weight to be had when
40:19
it comes to who's allowed to get divorced and who isn't. When it comes
40:23
to the weight of an unhappy marriage on a woman within that marriage and whether
40:30
or not she's allowed to leave because there's so much already stacked against you when
40:37
it comes to what's expected of you. Yeah, well, why don't you
40:43
just be happy that you married into this family and you know, you know
40:47
the way it is with old money. Maybe he has a mistress a side
40:51
and you can do things that you care about, like gardening, well he
40:54
does that, you know. Or maybe you can even have your own alliances
40:59
with a polo instructor or whatnot. But you know, just settle for what
41:04
you're settling for and keep it quiet. Ladies, don't get upset about men
41:07
being men. Boys will be boys, you know the way they are,
41:09
right, Yeah, don't worry about what they're doing in that hunting lodge.
41:14
They're with the foxes. It's fine. They definitely are with the foxes.
41:19
They're taking care of the dogs in the house. But yeah, it all.
41:24
It never failed to make me laugh. But it's really just like a
41:28
dark and sinister thought to think of how heavy that was for Queen Elizabeth to
41:32
be the head of the church that she wasn't willing to and it could have
41:38
just been her personality. But she wasn't really allowing herself to budge or slide
41:45
or do anything that would bring bad press or bad reputations or anything to anyone.
41:52
And she carried that. Yeah, she was very much about stability,
41:58
and in many ways she excelled at that whole idea of stability. I mean,
42:02
I think about the Queen as being an icon and a force and something
42:08
that almost seemed unmovable, that was here for not just our lifetimes, but
42:13
our parents' lifetimes, our grandparents' lifetimes. She was the queen for as long
42:19
as most humans on earth have been alive, which is phenomenal to think about.
42:23
She made one of the first transatlantic phone calls ever made, and by
42:27
the time she was dying, she was doing zoom calls with her grandkids around
42:30
the world. It's just amazing to think of how much she was just there,
42:35
no matter what. She was like an institution in and of herself.
42:38
Yeah, and I just wonder if, when it comes down to it,
42:47
if she knew deep down in her soul, I'm not afforded the wiggle room
42:57
that those who came before me were allowed. I as queen. It just
43:02
it does, it does feel like that was just a heavy weight on her,
43:06
and maybe not so much on Margaret due to her party lifestyle. But
43:12
yeah, she really did. You could tell that she carried that every day
43:15
and she was very good at it. She was great at it. One
43:21
of my favorite stories is from Michelle Obama's memoir talking about how she accidentally laid
43:27
hands on the Queen. She hugged her and hugged her and laughed and you
43:30
know, and she later on was told she brokee protocol and she's like,
43:36
I'm sorry. She's so disarming and funny. The Queen is just a joy
43:38
to hang out with. She's such good company. She can bring anyone out
43:44
of their shell and make them feel seen. And I accidentally fell for it,
43:46
hook line and sinker, and before you know what, I'm hugging the
43:49
Queen because she's such a dull light. And Michelle Obama, the way she
43:53
writes about it, I'm like, Wow, the Queen had skills. The
43:58
fact that she could be that disarming with anybody. I really take my hat
44:01
off to her for that, and I wish I had that same skill set.
44:06
She must be. You know, when she was alive, I can
44:07
imagine her walking into any room and just being a delight talking to complete strangers
44:13
having fun. She had it. She knew how to do it, and
44:16
I think that's fantastic. I also think that as far as her having to
44:21
be so good at it, part of it was she was extremely young and
44:24
she was a woman when she came into it. To get back to the
44:28
misogyny issue, she had to do it very well as a woman, and
44:30
she had to do it very well as somebody who was so young. And
44:35
I mean, how many of us in our early twenties are told you're going
44:38
to have this job for the rest of your life. Most of us switch
44:42
jobs at least. I was told when I was in college that I would
44:46
be the first generation that would have an average of eight jobs in my life,
44:50
which, by the way, it's been way more than eight jobs.
44:52
It's been like, I don't know, twenty or thirty. I've had so
44:55
many jobs. So she, at a very young age, when a lot
45:01
of people are just graduating college, was essentially being told now it's your time
45:07
to take over the family business, and you can never leave this business.
45:10
This is your job. You can leave it by stepping down. But what
45:14
would that really say about you? In the institution if you chose to step
45:16
down, right, and so you know, she could have stepped down,
45:21
but she couldn't really step down, you know, And she was doing it
45:22
at such a young age. And we all know that the world doesn't necessarily
45:27
treat young women with a great deal of seriousness or respect right. We see
45:31
it throughout history, we see it nowadays. I just think of young female
45:37
politicians in the US and how they get treated AOC from New York as one
45:42
example. They are frequently dismissed. And even if we're not politicians, young
45:47
women tend to be treated more dismissively than men of any age, including I
45:53
think that part of the delight is all of those corkis, like she really
45:59
did build up a dog army to be like, I'm going to disarm people
46:01
into being charmed by me, because a dog is going to run upon them
46:07
before I get on another tangent? Is there anything because you were so excited
46:10
to talk about misogyny within the royal family? Is there one thing that when
46:15
you think about misogyny in the royal family, you think, this is the
46:20
thing I wish we talked about more. It could be a story, it
46:23
could be a person. It could be a pattern, but anything that would
46:28
excite you that I'm not covering. It could be the very fact that most
46:34
of the women in the Royal family have only one job, which is to
46:37
produce an air. You are essentially a breed horse, a broodmare. I'm
46:44
not sure what the best term is for it, but your job is almost
46:49
inhumane as a woman, and I have never been able to get over that.
46:54
That's your job. Produce an air, produce a spear and that,
47:00
and put on a smiling face and cut some ribbons in wave. But that's
47:02
very secondary. Whether or not you actually do those things, it doesn't matter
47:07
as much. I mean, I look at the First Family. I look
47:10
at the Royal family of Monaco, for example, Albert, who has knocked
47:15
up women all over the place. Anywhere he can put his deck, he
47:17
puts it. And I'm not here to slut shame him for that. But
47:22
you know, some of the children he has produced have not been white,
47:27
and they have not been legitimate, and because of that, they can never
47:30
be in air. And he has the woman that he has twins with,
47:35
who after producing the twins, has almost never been seen from again. But
47:38
she is his wife and she is white, and she is legally the mother
47:44
of the future heirs to the throne. And because of that, because she
47:49
produced those kids, that's enough. It doesn't matter that she's invisible and doesn't
47:52
do any of the other royal duties. It's fine because a woman's job in
47:55
marrying into the royal family primarily is to just to be there for your uterus
48:01
and and your eggs and your vagina, the whole thing whatever, to do
48:07
that thing, and then whether you do anything else after that, they'll probably
48:13
say bad things about you if you don't do anything beyond that. But your
48:15
job is well and also anything else you're doing is just seeing it's not your
48:20
life's work, it's your hobby. So when Diana was so involved with AIDS
48:25
relief and AIDS research and everything, it was always like, isn't that nice
48:30
that Diana found time for this like little hobby she does at the hospitals.
48:36
And I'm like, well, she's visits. She spends a lot of time
48:39
and money visiting sick kids. Like I don't. I don't think it's going
48:44
to the movies. I'm going to the movies later on. And I would
48:46
never talk about it in the same way that I would talk about Diana doing
48:51
all of that charity work. She was doing a lot of it after hours
48:54
and doing it off the clock too, which famously her guards have said,
49:00
Yeah, they snuck her in to hospitals to aids wards with, you know,
49:06
in secret, because they didn't want the cameras there. She wasn't doing
49:08
it as a pr op. She did it as a pr op a few
49:12
times because she wanted to draw attention to this cause, but more often than
49:15
not, she was sneaking into these places because it mattered to her, because
49:19
it was meaningful work, and because she didn't want to just be there for
49:22
the cameras. She wanted to be there for the patients themselves. And to
49:25
me, that says, this is something that I'm passionate about. This is
49:30
important work for me beyond the cameras, and so I agree with you.
49:35
We can't underestimate how important that is. And I see us doing it.
49:39
I shouldn't say us. I see the press doing it all the time.
49:42
Also with Megan Markle's work too, you know, she has done a lot
49:46
of work with you know, one of her first jobs was working on the
49:51
victims of the Grunfield fire on a cookbook. This is a fire in a
49:57
low income housing development in the UK that killed her of people, and a
50:01
lot of people who were already living on the margins were injured, killed or
50:07
left homeless because of this fire. And she worked hard on a cookbook with
50:12
some of the surviving women that included recipes from their homelands, family recipes and
50:17
so on. And this was a fundraising cookbook and also a way to draw
50:22
attention to the victims and so on, And she did this plus created a
50:27
fashion line for low income women that helped raise money for getting women back to
50:32
work and so on. That there were all these different charitable things that Megan
50:37
did when she was a member of the royal family, and she got accused
50:43
of being opportunistic or trying to make it all about herself. There were stories
50:46
written about her being workaholic, tyrant, an angry black woman, too demanding,
50:53
and so on. So I think it's interesting that when a woman in
50:59
the royal family tries to do something outside of just cutting the ribbons or having
51:05
the babies, it's frequently treated either as as you said, just a hobby,
51:09
isn't that cute that she does that? Or treated as a problem,
51:14
and I don't see that happening when men in the royal family do these things
51:19
well, because people think that when Megan is harassed in the press for doing
51:27
something that is admirable and actual, the actually the definition of noble and loving
51:34
and kind, that oh, who cares, it's just tabloid trash. But
51:37
I was just talking with another guest about this innate anxiety and fear I have
51:45
of being overly kind to people, about being overly nice, about supporting people,
51:51
or being too excited for them, because at the end of the day
51:53
it might just come back that I was trying to steal thunder from them or
51:58
steal clout or things. And no one ever sat down and said, hey,
52:01
Nampley, when you celebrate people, you get to compliment them once.
52:07
And if that compliment is written too enthusiastically or too nicely, or you use
52:14
too many exclamation points or adjectives, then it's cringey and people really think that
52:20
you're just trying to draw attention over to yourself and how nice you are.
52:24
It's silencing, is what it is when people when the press does things like
52:30
that, to be like, look at began doing a whole charity thing just
52:35
so she can be making it all about herself. Look at her do that.
52:39
It's another way that they silence us, and I don't think we give
52:43
that enough credit. And I don't think we give it enough credit on how
52:47
that continues to make us divided. And it's another one of those insidious tools
52:53
that they do where it's like, well, if we tear Megan down because
52:58
she's giving homeless when jobs, then some other women somewhere will also resent Megan,
53:06
and that's a further divide. And I just want to, you know,
53:12
make a point here to say Diana wasn't perfect, Megan is not perfect.
53:15
I'm not here to try and valorize them or make them sound like they're
53:20
perfect, but because I think some people when they hear me talk in the
53:24
press, they're like, Oh, you're just one hundred percent team sus Sex.
53:28
You love Diana. No matter what, I'm not saying these people are
53:30
flawless people in any way. What I'm saying is how the institution and how
53:36
the press treat them is just it's patently unfair. They are presented as villains,
53:45
women are pitted against each other, and none of the ways that they
53:49
are treated have anything to do with what they've actually done, good or bad,
53:52
you know, because I get the not with the royal family just in
53:57
general. I get that criticism too, where it's like you've you're just really
54:00
hard to find sympathy. You make it extremely hard to find sympathy or empathy
54:07
for these men who are carrying out these oppressive systems, And I go,
54:12
uh huh, uh huh, and I'll own it. Yeah. The reason
54:19
why I find it so hard to have as much empathy for Charles as I
54:23
would have had for Diana, should the three of us be in the same
54:27
room, is because at the end of the day, logically, my brain
54:30
knows it'll work out for Charles and he'll still be okay, you know,
54:37
yes, yes, absolutely. And also he was in the power position.
54:42
Again, she was a teenager, he was in his thirties. He was
54:45
part of a thousand year old machine of power, of oppression, of money,
54:54
and she, despite being from an aristocratic family, was not She did
55:00
not have all of those things that he had. And she also was a
55:04
woman. And things tend to work out better for men men for women in
55:07
our world unfortunate, and therefore they get a little less sympathy and empathy from
55:14
me, and I find that to be fine. No, I don't even
55:20
think they'll notice if my sympathy or empathy is cut into a half or a
55:24
fourth for them, Like, I don't think they'll notice because someone else,
55:30
mostly the press and people with more money than I, they'll take up the
55:32
cause for them. There will always be someone who will try to convince me
55:36
that Chris Pratt is a decent human And that's fine, it's fine. Yes,
55:45
enough people are giving him the benefit of the doubt. You don't have
55:49
to. You know, it only took three episodes of vander Pump Rules before
55:52
we decided that Sandoval was actually feeling very badly and Arianna is now a problem
56:00
because she's successful. Like you know, it took us three whole episodes.
56:05
I'm gonna go ahead and move us into our ending portion of the show where
56:09
we kind of sum up everything and all of the heavy topics that we talked
56:15
about today, and we learn and we move forward. Enjoy. So,
56:19
if you had one lesson that you've learned from your experiences being a Royal Watcher
56:27
and your vast amount of other experiences, what is some what is a lesson
56:31
that you wish you could pass down to people. If you must know one
56:37
thing, know this. I was gonna say, if you must know one
56:40
thing, don't take it personally. And I'm saying this as a female,
56:45
as an American, as a woman of color who is a royal watcher.
56:50
I get a lot of hate. I've received threats to my physical person.
56:54
I've received death threats for what I have said in the press in defense Megan
57:00
Markle or in criticism of Prince Andrew. There are people out there who genuinely
57:07
want me dad, and I have to keep in mind that, Unfortunately,
57:10
as much as I hate that, these are the consequences of being a woman
57:15
who speaks up. And I don't want to be completely flippant about this,
57:20
because there's nothing fluffy or light or laughable about death threats. There's nothing that
57:24
we should just like ha haha. But also at the same time, I
57:30
remind myself that this is something that I'm sure you and most women who speak
57:35
up. We receive a lot of anger from people who don't like what we're
57:38
saying. And I would rather make people angry with what I'm saying than to
57:44
be silent, because I don't think I could live with myself if I were
57:46
silent, if I wasn't speaking up against racism or misogyny or classism or all
57:51
of these other things, I don't think I'd be happy with myself. So
57:55
I'd rather make people angry and maybe make some people out there a little bit
58:00
less alone and be able to live with myself and speak up. So that's
58:05
a lesson that I would recommend that people take away from all of this.
58:08
You were the exact person I needed to talk to today in this exact you
58:13
know, feeling this moment because I ended my seasonal depression so angry and so
58:21
in that taking it personally, if you were mad at Taylor Swift, you
58:23
were mad at me. If you said something about Beyonce's outfit, you were
58:28
talking about my outfit. I had gotten to the point where I was having
58:32
a hard time separating whether or not women as a whole could be celebrated and
58:43
could be supporting one another and that be one hundred percent true and not immediately
58:49
ruined by someone else's voice being in my head. And so I was having
58:54
a hard time, and I would just tell people. I'd be like,
58:59
I'm trying to do it, but I can't sell it. I can't separate
59:02
the people from the system. So if someone is mad that someone got an
59:10
award, I'm like, why aren't you screaming at the academy. Why are
59:14
you screaming at the person who is also just a person living through this?
59:20
And I was so angry. So I know that when I replayed that lesson
59:23
that you just said, that was so beautifully well spoken. If I'm editing
59:29
it soon and I'm still in a place where I'm like, wow, you
59:31
really ended your holiday depression, just so aware of how angry you are,
59:37
I will probably cry, but please know it will be a very good release
59:43
the fact that I made it through without crying. It's okay to cry.
59:49
Crying gets the sad out, as the song says, it's okay. So
59:52
I think my lesson might be that if it's a day where you need it
59:57
to be one hundred percent true that women can and will be celebrated and can
1:00:01
and will support one another and be supported, then by God, turn off
1:00:06
your phone and be like, today is the day that I feel that women
1:00:09
and do the celebrating and do the supporting, and do the changing of your
1:00:15
algorithm. And I think I was just feeling so out of control about it,
1:00:21
and I think that's why I could probably relate to royal women in a
1:00:25
very smaller scale. I was just feeling so out of control. I forgot
1:00:30
that I get to be a woman who celebrates other women, and I get
1:00:35
to be a woman that apports other women, and I get to be a
1:00:37
member of the world who make sure that my feminism is intersectional and things like
1:00:45
that. So I really appreciate that. And you're giving something beautiful back to
1:00:51
the world that people appreciate. So if you can continue to do it,
1:00:55
the world is lucky. And if you have to take a break from it
1:00:58
once in a while and just look at es on Instagram, that's okay too.
1:01:01
That's okay. We have to do what we have to do sometimes to
1:01:05
keep our fortitude right, and sometimes that means taking a little break here and
1:01:08
there and then going back out and fight. Yeah. And then we also
1:01:13
end with a manifestation and a hope for what we would want in the future,
1:01:16
and we tried to pair it down to maybe it would be in the
1:01:20
future. I hope that royal women or the people that we were talking about,
1:01:24
and the oppressive system that we were talking about. So if you had
1:01:28
one hope that you would like to offer up to the collective energy so that
1:01:32
they also gain momentum and go, you know me too. I wish that
1:01:37
would happen to what would you manifest? I would hope that not just royal
1:01:45
women, but women in all parts of the universe that were not just fodder
1:01:52
for comparison against each other. That's so much of the press about the royals,
1:01:57
like who wore it better? And it's always the skinny one who's doing
1:02:00
it right, who's doing it wrong? Maybe we should just celebrate when people
1:02:06
are doing something and stop caring so much about if she looks prettier than that
1:02:10
woman doing it, or if she's doing it in a quote unquote better way
1:02:15
than that woman. Just let's not compare each other anymore. We don't need
1:02:20
to do that. We're doing the best we can and comparison is not just
1:02:23
the thief of joy, but it can also scare other women away from wanting
1:02:29
to do anything in the first place. Let's not do it. So as
1:02:31
a woman who has been scared from doing anything in the first place, I'm
1:02:35
going to sign off on that too, to be like, you know,
1:02:39
you can be the second place person in the competition and also be really happy
1:02:45
for the first place person. And that's beautiful. Oh yeah, oh I
1:02:50
love that absolutely. So I would like it if we as a culture,
1:02:54
as a country, as a as people walking this planet with away that beautiful
1:03:01
lesson that Ricky Bobby played by Will Ferrell gave us and throw out the idea
1:03:07
that if you're not first your last. Talladega Knights was a funny movie,
1:03:12
but it was no way to build a life around. And I think we
1:03:15
do get affected by the if you're not first your last mindset, But you
1:03:22
know, we're all doing the best we can and it's okay to not be
1:03:25
first. That's fine. It's okay to be happy for the person who did
1:03:30
get to be first, or be happy for the person who fought like hell
1:03:34
and got third, you know, m yeah, or just to be happy
1:03:39
for everybody who tried. They're all arbitrary, you know, numbers. Kristen,
1:03:45
thank you so much for being here. This was the best that this
1:03:49
Royal episode could have ever have been. And this has been like a big
1:03:52
goal with an just a million times spot on my outline of ideas that we
1:03:59
should be doing. I'm like, we need to be doing the Royals.
1:04:01
They're so they're so prevalent in our own culture that it has to be done.
1:04:06
So thank you so much, Oh Natalie, this has been so much
1:04:11
fun. Thank you so much for having me. It's been just cool.
1:04:13
And make sure that all of our listeners know where they can connect with you
1:04:16
and your work. You can check out my podcast, The Daily Fail,
1:04:20
where we lambasted the stories from the world's most read English paper publication. I
1:04:30
won't say the name of it. It rhymes with Daily Fail, but I
1:04:34
guess I've already said the name of the publication during this conversation. So that's
1:04:39
called The Daily Fail podcast. And you can find all my other podcasts and
1:04:43
all the other things I'm doing on Twitter at Kristen Meinzer or on my web
1:04:47
page which is kristenmindser dot com, and it'll all be in the show notes,
1:04:51
including all of the links to our Instagram and I've tolerated pod. There's
1:04:57
a lot going on on Patreon. It's for free. There are a lot
1:05:00
of previews that you could be watching of The Misogyny Meltdown, where I take
1:05:04
a lot of these topics that I've been very mature and calm about while being
1:05:10
on this podcast and turn them into comedy and skits because if SNL wasn't going
1:05:16
to give me a writing job because they're like, what if she wrote jokes
1:05:18
about misogyny and people thought that misogyny was a big deal. I decided that
1:05:24
I could just write my own jokes and make them for you. Go check
1:05:28
all of that out, and remember, tolerators, you don't have to smile
1:05:30
through anything you're tolerating, including a lot of people in the press making an
1:05:36
example of one woman and how she is either the best thing or the worst
1:05:43
thing in the world, and also taking on the identity yourself. Smiles are
1:05:48
for joy name