Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Overstretching & Flexibility - How Much Is Too Much?

Transcript

Overstretching & Flexibility - How Much Is Too Much? · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_06: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at Advanced Competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_06: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_06: This is Making the Impact Advanced Competition Podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_06: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_06: We've all seen dancers with extreme levels of flexibility, the ones who can get their backsparched effortlessly and their legs stretched infinitely.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_06: We might even envy these dancers and wonder how they got so flexible.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_06: Chances are they've fallen victim to the recent trends of overstretching, which, if done incorrectly, can cause lifelong problems for dancers.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_06: In today's episode of Making the Impact, we unpack the pros and cons of overstretching, hyper mobility, and extreme flexibility with two insightful guests who have a wealth of knowledge on these topics.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Hey y'all, welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact Advanced Competition Podcast.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Mueller.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_06: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the pod.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, welcome back, season three.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this episode is all about flexibility, hypermobility, and overstretching.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think that uh these are hot topics a hundred million percent in the competition world these days because everybody wants to be super flexible bendy.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna talk all about it.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk about the pros and cons of it today, and we have some spectacular guests joining us.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: But before we introduce our guests, I wanna let you know all about our season sponsor who is back and joining us again for season three, and that is Dance Costumes by Urzua.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Dance Costumes by Urzua offers high-end custom, one-of-the-kind costumes for all genres.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: From edgy contemporary costumes to professional tutus, they offer subtle leotards to sparkly unitards.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Choose from a wide selection of fabrics, including hand-painted fabrics or custom printed fabrics.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: You can add feathers, rhinestones, and any other material to bring your vision to life.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're currently on the costume hunt for the upcoming season, then you should definitely check out all of Dance Costumes by Urzua's designs now.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, we have a special promo code that is exclusive to making the impact listeners only.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: You will receive 15% off your custom costume.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Use the code Impact15 in all caps at checkout.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's Impact 15 at checkout on dancecostumesbyerzua.com.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you to Lily Erzua for supporting our podcast and sponsoring us for season three.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: We hope all of you listeners will check out their designs now and create the custom costume of your dreams.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_06: And coming up this season on the podcast in just a few short weeks, we are going to be hosting some exclusive QAs on Facebook in our Making the Impact Dance Competition Podcast community group.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_06: So if you haven't joined us there already, come on over, search for us on Facebook.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_06: You'll answer a couple questions that let us know how you're related to the dance industry, and you'll be in.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_06: And we will be having QAs for you where Courtney's gonna sit down with other guests live and answer your questions.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_06: So I know there's gonna be more and more questions, as there always are.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_06: We always get more than we can handle in the hour that we do that for.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_06: So come on over and participate.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, please join us there.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And something that's special for the community only is that we'll be doing even more exclusive QA lives just for the people in the community.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we do host our QA lives that turn into podcast episodes that you can participate in.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're in the group, then you can even come and get more QA action and ask Leslie and I questions, all those questions you've ever dreamed to have an answer to.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe your dance teacher doesn't answer them for you.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you just have a question out of the blue today and you need an answer tomorrow.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: We will let, we will give you that answer.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we will be real and honest with y'all.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_06: That that is what we do.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_06: Both me and Courtney in our regular lives and in making the impact.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_06: So do not fear you are gonna get the honest take from us.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is so true.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: All right, and if you haven't learned about our new buy me a coffee donation, then I would love for you to go check it out.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: We are so grateful for every single listener who tunes in weekly to Making the Impact.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And one way that you can show your appreciation for our free resource and our free podcast that we bring to you weekly is to buy us a coffee.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when we say buy us a coffee, what we're saying is you can give us a tiny baby donation as little as$3, which will buy us a coffee.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's where it comes from.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: But your donation can be of any size and it truly helps us support the podcast and bring this quality content back to you.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: All the funds that are donated to us through our Kofi account will go directly into producing this podcast.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if you love what you're listening to, then head on over to Kofi.com slash making the impact.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: You can click the link in the show notes to donate to our podcast now.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, everybody, it is time to meet our two spectacular guests who are joining us today on this episode topic.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the first guest that I would love to introduce, you may remember her from season one, episode 10, Why Technique Will Never Go Out of Style.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: And also a fan favorite from season two, episode 40, Keeping Jazz Dance Alive.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to welcome back IDA Judge Mary Roberts to the podcast.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you so much for having me back on.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_05: I am very excited for today's topic.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so okay, before we get into all of it, right?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_05: Who am I?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_05: What do I do?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_05: I typically do all the things.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I was born.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_05: No, okay, we won't go back that far.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_05: So usually I'm a choreographer and director in the cruise line industry.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_05: I set mainstage product production shows for Norwegian creative studios.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_05: And then I've also created parties and events for Royal Caribbean.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_05: In and around that, I'm also a jazz dance educator.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_05: I am a part of National Dance Educators Organization for the Private Sector Committee.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and I'm a member of the Bridge Dance Project, helping connect dance competition dancers with their local dance scientists and people who can help them gain a little bit better handle on their bodies and technique and all the fun things.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah, that's I guess that's me in a nutshell.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I know, Mary, we brought you on for this topic because you yourself are very hypermobile.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: You are naturally blessed with beautiful flexibility in your gorgeous dance facility.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited to hear all about your experiences throughout this episode of being a naturally flexible dancer and its challenges and also the great things that have come from this beautiful facility you were blessed with.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited to have you on the podcast.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for coming back for the third time.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: All right, and our next special guest is brand new to the podcast, and she is the owner of MoveMethod, which is a conditioning program for dancers that specializes in stretching, made safe, simple, and effective.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very excited to welcome Christine Jones to the podcast.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for inviting me.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, so the name is Christine Jones, and I'm the founder of Move Method, which is a conditioning program for dancers.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_04: And again, we specialize in stretching.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_04: I grew up dancing, but I started teaching quite young, like 18.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_04: So upon graduating from high school, I went right into teaching.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_04: And one of the things I started to think about as a teacher was am I conditioning, am I warming up, am I stretching my dancers in the most efficient way to help them meet the growing demands of dance?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_04: And essentially that's what we do at Move Method.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_04: We come up with techniques, stretch techniques, conditioning techniques, all sorts of things to help our dancers meet the new and growing demands of dance.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_04: I have a BS in exercise physiology.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_04: I became a fully certified stop Pilates instructor trainer.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_04: I founded a stop Pilates training center here in Utah.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I did quite a bit of Pilates with dancers for a while.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_04: I did end up selling that and going back into the dance world after 500 hours of yoga teacher training and then creating this curriculum that we now call move method.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_04: But the truth is I hadn't really intended to scale the program or do anything with it other than better condition the dancers I had been working with for a long time at a s at a local studio.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_04: But based on the success, they started seeing with the program, other people started asking for it.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_04: So we I hired and I trained instructors and we got to work locally teaching, and then I was invited to present at things like Dance Teacher Summit, Dance Teacher Web, and then we really started to expand globally, really.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's kind of it in a nutshell.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's so necessary for our dance world to have safe stretching, you know, and this is a very, very helpful tool for a lot of dance teachers and educators out there who are looking to learn how to practice safe stretching.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: So where can people learn more about the move method?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: So you can follow us on social.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: It's M-U-V, M-E-T-H-O-D, or check us out just online.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_04: So we have a website, all of our programs are there.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_04: So whatever your preference is.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_04: Social media or going right to the website.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody listening, go check out move method MUV.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: We'll also have the link in our show notes as well for you to be able to just click and access and learn more.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks so much, Christine, for joining us.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you're welcome.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for asking.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_06: All right, let's do it.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_06: So, listeners, as you have just heard, we've got some highly trained, highly educated guests here with us today to talk about overstretching.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_06: And I think it's overstretching flexibility and hypermobility because I think we're kind of we're not lumping them together because they're all separate things, but they all fit into the same world of the conversation.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_06: So we will be trying to differentiate, you know, for you what we're talking about and which one is which, kind of.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_06: But I think for myself, Christine, you said something in your intro that really struck me as very important to make sure people understand is that the growing demands of the dance world.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_06: In 2021, it seems like there's nothing children can't do.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_06: You know, there's children out there turning a million times, there's children whacking their legs behind their face, like seemingly with no effort.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_06: Like there's just there's so many athletic, challenging movements that are out there now that were not happening 10, 15, 20, 100 years ago.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_06: Like things have drastically escalated in terms of what people are capable of.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_06: And so I'm wanting to know right now, like, what do you consider to be overstretching and why has that phenomenon even started?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you're asking me, right, Leslie?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so we consider overstretching anytime we take a muscle, a tendon, a ligament beyond a normal limit or our natural joint range.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_04: I believe it's happening because it can happen.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_04: So we can overstretch somebody and then they can do these really, you know, glamorized movements like scorpions, needles, tilts.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_04: I believe it's being glamorized because kids are getting recognition for it.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_04: So they're being praised in the classroom.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_04: Look how flexible so-and-so is.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_04: They're being put in the center of dances.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I mean, dances are full-blown stopping, and then somebody does some crazy trick and then they go back to dancing again.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_04: So sometimes I'm not even sure we're dancing anymore on stage.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_04: And then these kids are winning.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_04: So, so I think the culture is beginning in the classroom, and that's why we're very firm on training instructors on what's safe and effective, because the information needs to come from the teacher.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: What is safe, what is effective, and we we need to, I think we need to come back to putting more emphasis on technique and strong dancers.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_04: And yes, we can do these cool, fun tricks, but we have to get there safely.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_04: And that's not what dance is, in my opinion.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: It's you know, it's fun to showcase it maybe here and there, but I think if we don't stop glamorizing it for the dancers, they won't stop overstretching.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_06: 100%.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_06: Mary, I'm you're writing things down as she's speaking, so I'm curious what your what your thoughts are.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you know, I think like that's really what hits the nail on the head, Christine, was that concept of trends.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_05: You know, what is trending at competitions right now?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_05: I can remember when I was a competition dancer, you know, that was like when, oh my God, switch leaps suddenly became the biggest thing in the world.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_05: And you even had people bringing props on stage, like a three-foot stool jumping off of the stool to do a switch leap to a back touch, you know.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, I just started dancing.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna not do that.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna do a bum and hope I stay on my feet, you know?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_05: But I think like that concept of trends, and you're absolutely right.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_05: It's that glamorization, it's the attention that they're getting when we are, and we've tapped into this before.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes what gets put on social media is like the most eye-catching thing, right?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_05: So when you have those beautiful extensions, those look beautiful in a passive photo.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_05: You know, you we we see the photo, we and so the dancers that can do that get they garner a lot of attention from a number of spaces, a number of avenues that they they then get validated for having that high level of flexibility.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_05: So then another dancer wanting that same level of validation and attention and all of that, they're then gonna try to push their bodies.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_05: The the only problem is that it doesn't celebrate the incredibly unique diversity of each body type and what that body type, what its best potential is.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_05: So I think you're absolutely right that you know, safe and effective is so important in in the way that the moves are taught.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_05: It's not to say that we don't want to evolve what students are capable of doing, we want them to continue to grow.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_05: But it's that concept of like pressing boundaries instead of pushing through them.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_05: And that concept of like, okay, your leg is at this height today, okay, cool.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_05: And then in a week it's at this height, and then a week after that, it's another height.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_05: But where is the functional flexibility within that?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_05: So just because like I can smack a bot mod to my face, and oddly enough, have actually given myself a concussion because the ship rocked, my leg kept going, and it smacked my forehead.
• 15:16
  unknown: Oh my god.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_05: If that doesn't say hypermobility, I don't know what does.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_05: You know, but but then can I develop to that same height?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_05: Do I know how to recruit the correct muscles to access that flexibility?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_05: So um, yeah, I think that concept of trends, what is trending?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_05: What are dancers getting attention for?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_05: And flexibility is just the height of what of what's garnering the most attention right now.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_06: And so, okay, so we've got we had our little definition there of what overstretching is.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_06: It's going past what's naturally available to you.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_06: Can we agree that that's yeah, kind of the gist of it?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_05: And I think also aggressively so.
• 15:54
  unknown: Okay.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_05: You know, there's there's something else about the the aggression and pushing, you know, or like back in the day, there were teachers that would put sandbags on top of kids' hips in a Christine, you're like stand on top of them while they're in their straddle and like press, you know.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen it on Instagram.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: I had it on these days.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_05: Right, exactly.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_05: So I think there's also there's a there's something about it that's the the aggression behind it too, when, you know, and everybody will be like, oh my god, that stretch feels so good, right?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_05: But that feeling of stretching is tearing.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_05: We're actually tearing fibers, we're tearing muscles, we're tearing tissue.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_05: And so I think that that's problematic in and of itself, that if dancers don't really understand the difference between good stretch and, you know, maybe too far stretching, the feeling is similar in nature and they don't, they're not being asked to define what that boundary is.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_06: So can we speak?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_06: I want to stay in overstretching for a moment, and then I want to move to hypermobility because I think the two terms, I think people don't understand the difference between like flexibility, overstretching to get flexible, and hypermobility.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_06: So let's remember to go there after this.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_06: But I want to stick with overstretching because Mary, you just mentioned something that I would like both of you to kind of extrapolate on for us, a little science, you know, lesson here.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_06: What happens to your muscles and ligaments when you stretch properly versus what happens to them when you stretch improperly?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_06: Because I think, like Mary said, there is a line between this feels good and this is a detrimental stretch for me.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_06: And I think to hear a little bit about the science behind it might help people understand.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_06: Anyone jumping?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: Go, Christine.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: Mary, do you want to take it first?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_05: No, Christine, you you go for it on this one.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so so just so I'm clear, the the question being, how do we what happens when we stretch properly versus improperly?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_04: Is that correct?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_04: So one of the things we have to understand when it comes to stretching is that flexibility is actually regulated by your brain.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_04: So your brain keeps a resting log, your brain keeps a log of the length, resting length of each muscle in the body and the allowable range, which it considers safe.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_04: So the so everything's being regulated actually through our nervous system.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_04: And so it's a complex conversation in the body, but it happens really quickly.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_04: We don't even know what's happening, right?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_04: But we have something called a stretch reflex.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_04: So when we move beyond what our body perceives is safe, based on that log that the brain's keeping of each muscle, the muscle set, the brain says to the muscle, you know what, I don't like where you're going, and it contracts.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: When it contracts, you can easily push through that contraction, and it's happening all the time, especially when we're forcing dancers.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_04: Mary, you talked about force.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_04: So when we're forcing students and you can force yourself, like I can force myself into a stretch.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_04: A teacher can force me into a stretch.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_04: I can use gravity to force into a stretch, I can use all sorts of things, but anytime we start forcing a stretch, we're moving through our stretch reflex.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_04: When this happens, we damage muscles, we potentially damage ligaments, joints, all sorts of problems happen.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_04: And so while it works, and it does work in the moment, over time it usually creates injury.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's something people need to understand with stretching, is it's generally not an acute injury.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like, say you're doing a leap and you land on the side of your ankle and you tear a ligament, boom, you have an injury, right?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: Stretching injuries usually compound over time.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_04: So when you're seven and you're overstretching, it feels fine.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_04: You're you feel fine, your body bounces back, your flesh is really healthy.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like big deal.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_04: But then all of a sudden you're 15 and now you can't even touch your toes, really.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's been like an accumulate.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_04: So you can have two things.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: You can start to really lose flexibility as your body's trying to protect you from overstretching, or you just become totally lax.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_04: And now we're dealing with injuries in terms of lack of control, right?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: Your muscles can't control, we're going beyond, we're tearing muscles.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: And then we start to move into joints.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_04: So overstretching really it does come with a cost.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_04: And the challenging thing is that we don't always know.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like one dancer could totally overstretch and be completely fine when he or she is 50.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: The other one, you know, can't hike down a mountain at 25 because they have too much lexicity in their knees or their hips.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: So for me, it's a gamble we won't take at move method.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: So we're just going to keep it safe.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_04: When you stretch safely, you retrain your brain.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_04: So what happens is, and this happens over time, and we do this with our curriculums, we start to train the brain to allow for a greater length change, which means we decrease that stretch reflex.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_04: So the stretch reflex isn't happening as soon.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: Therefore, we don't need to push into anything, right?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_04: And as you do this progressively over time, that's how you create gain flexibility.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_04: But the way we stretch at move method, you're also going to create strength at the same time.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_04: So we want to have strong, flexible muscles.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_04: It compounds over time.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_04: It compounds over time.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's not a, you know, one and done.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_04: And that's one of the challenges with stretching, is that it really takes consistency.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_04: People want to be more flexible tomorrow.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: Well, no, it's going to take consistency.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_04: You need to stretch three to five times a week to actually become more flexible.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_04: And there's other things you need to be doing too.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: But anyway, so I might have gone on a tangent there, but we love a tangent here by making the impact.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: The problem with stretching improperly is that it's just not setting us up for long-term success or longevity in the dance world.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_04: And that's where we stand.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: And just longevity in life, I mean, when we look at our dancers, how many are going to go on and dance forever?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_04: Very few, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_04: We want to produce healthy 20-year-olds, 30-year-olds, 40-year-olds.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_04: We just want people to live healthy lives.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: And if we're pushing them too far in a way that's not safe, we're kind of taking that away from the dancers.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't really think it's fair.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_04: But if we teach students how to become flexible safely, they become strong, they become flexible.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's quite empowering for the student.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: Now they're like, Oh my gosh, look at this increased flexibility because of this effort I put in and I've learned to properly stretch and treat my body properly.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_04: And so stretching right does lots of good things, but it really helps our dancers meet the technical side of dance with more ease.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: So true.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: So I'll I'll zip it.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_05: No, I yeah, no, everything that you just said is uh certainly been my experience.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_05: And then when I've taken the tools that I learned and pass it along to dancers, regardless of age, it can be it can be a 60-year-old dancer that's taking a jazz class.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_05: That I think one of the big things about for me, safe stretching is about intentionality.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_05: Like what is the intention behind why we're stretching that muscle, right?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_05: So somebody like myself, the reason that my Bapmas went so high, but my developes were at 90 was because I had an incredibly flexible lower back.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_05: So what I was actually doing was tucking under.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_05: And so then the leg would just fly when I learned how to control the really like my skeletal alignment, right?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_05: Drop the tailbone.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_05: Now see where the leg goes.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_05: Well, the same thing when we're doing leg stretches on the ground.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_05: The number of times that I've walked by dancers, you know, that are really pulling the leg to your face, and I'm like, cool, but like your bottom leg is this high.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_05: It's like four or five inches button high off the ground.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_05: Like, can you put your supporting leg back on the ground, untuck your hips, lengthen your tailbone, and then see where their stretches?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_05: You know, and they're just like, but but I can barely hold it.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, right, because you have really tight hamstrings.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_05: That's an important thing.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_05: That's let's not keep stretching the thing that's already really flexible.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_05: Let's work on the muscle groups that are not flexible.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_05: Like nobody wants to do that.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_06: Because that's hard.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_06: It will hard.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_06: And it looks really good when I pull my leg up to here.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_06: And like, listen, it's humbling.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_06: I have been out of, you know, regular dance training for several years now, but in preparation for an ankle surgery, I'm doing some like cross-training and some yoga and pilates and stretching, just trying to get like my left side strong so that it can support me while I'm on crutches for a month.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_06: But we've been working on she, we have realized through all this stuff that I have incredibly an incredibly tight hip flexor when I'm in parallel.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_06: Like I can't even do a like when you're down on your your knees and you pull up that back leg to stretch your quad.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_06: If my front leg is not turned out, I cannot do it.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_06: It does not work.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_06: And I've always just assumed that, okay, like I said, I need to turn out that front leg and I can pull my back leg back.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_06: No, it's because that other it's very tight.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_06: It is not there.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_06: And so it's very humbling when people who know more than you, you know, in the same business that you're in, I train with, you know, another judge who's a who's a Pilates teacher and a trainer.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_06: And it's just very humbling to be like, oh, I thought I could do this.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_06: I thought I was more flexible than this.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_06: And you are in a certain way, like you said, Mary, you can you can get your leg up here by doing something, but it's not maybe the proper way to do it.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_06: So, you know, it is understandable that from a psychological perspective of kids just wanting to stretch the thing that's already stretchy.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_06: Like, I get that.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_06: You want to work on the side of the turns that you can do.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: It feels good to do the things you do well.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the microwave instant, you know, success that we've talked about so many times on the podcast.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh wow, my leg goes here, cool.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna do everything else wrong.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: But as long as my leg goes here, then that's all that matters because cool, my extension's a perfect 180.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that unfortunately, the way that I see the trend going as far as being support, like studios who are supporting overstretching in the wrong way, is mainly just, of course, like we have already said, following the trend.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I I just think that it's so new to so many people that they just don't know how to do it properly.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: So they're training it incorrectly.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the dancers don't know any different because they're learning it from a teacher who is teaching it improperly and not safe.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, like things like move method are so crucial for the industry right now because you're teaching the educators how to teach it to the children properly.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we need.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm, I mean, I don't know if it's similar for everyone else, but I didn't even know what overstretching was until like a few years ago.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_06: No.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I did not grow up doing that.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: We just worked on safety striving.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like we like the most like extreme stretch that we would do is like I would sit in my straddle on my stomach and like roll on top of my hips, like, and like have gravity like, you know, press my hips down to the floor or like, you know, kind of like a frog position, but in a straddle.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's the most extreme overstretching that I ever did.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: I never had like yoga blocks stacked up with my front leg on a like in a split.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I've never heard of that.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I turned out okay.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: I should work a whole career.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't have to be crazy hypermobile bendy.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm even thinking back to my compties.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: I know, Mary, you brought back, you know, some of your compties and and stuff.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I remember there being dancers who were hypermobile or very just naturally flexible, but that didn't really make them win all the time.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: They had a pretty line, like we talked about.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: They had a nice picture, but the dancers that were winning back when I was growing up were the dancers that had the all-around solid technique and could hold a devlope and with the turned out with the proper muscles engaged and showing like that clean, strong support.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, like that now it's it's shifted.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's shifted to let me hold pictures and be over flexible.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: And my concern is like you mentioned Christine, the muscles that are supporting are are the correct muscles supporting this extension or supporting this hypermobile position that you are in, or are we just relying on these ligaments that have been overly stretched to just get it up there and training in properly, essentially, at the end of the day, is what it comes down to.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, there's so many times I've seautiful dancers on stage while I'm judging, and I'm like, you just need more control.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you are so beautiful, your facility is beautiful.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you've worked so hard on this flexibility, but you have zero control to back it up.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: You need to go back to basics, and we need to get into strength and conditioning because that's what's gonna make you a better dancer at the end of the day and keep you safe for, hopefully.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_04: Hopefully.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_04: One thing I did want to mention, can I mention something off?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_06: Go for it.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_04: Mary, you mentioned intention, and I think that's a very important thing.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_04: And then we kind of started talking about, you know, like dancers love to showcase where they're the most flexible, right?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: Again, back to praise, right?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_04: They think that's what the teacher wants to see.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_04: So at Move Method, one of the things we do, and it's hard for teachers and dancers alike at the beginning, is that we say, okay, we're going to step away from aesthetics and we're going to focus on anatomical alignment only because we know the origins and insertions of the muscles, and we are going to focus on certain muscles and all of our curriculum stretch each muscle group in a balanced way because dance warmups and stretch sequences are pretty imbalanced just on their own.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_04: So we want to make sure we stretch all target groups.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_04: We have X amount that we need to cover in each stretch sequence.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_04: But the thing we do is we say, hey, let's step away from I call it the look at me factor and let's just focus on feeling sensation of the stretch in this area.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't matter how high the leg is, it doesn't matter how deep you are in the stretch, it just matters that you're feeling a sensation.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_04: You're not feeling pain.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_04: Is it uncomfortable?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, it's uncomfortable, but it's not painful.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_04: And so we kind of educate the kids along the way.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_04: Like right now, we're targeting your three hamstring muscles.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_04: We're not going to let you turn out.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_04: You'll be stretching parallel with your ankle dorsiflexed.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_04: It's not pretty, it's not glamorous, it's not going to be really high.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_04: But if you do this correctly, when you go into the classroom, your bot ma is going to be that much higher.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_04: So we just continually create like a dance-specific application as we're stretching muscles to motivate the kids to do it because we take the glamour out of it.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_04: So it's not, it's not pretty.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_04: They're not like, oh my gosh, look how high my leg is.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_04: It's effective.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_04: So my thing is, look, let's make this effective.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think that's another thing we have to examine with our students is are we making our warmups pretty?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_04: And is it about how high the leg is and how pointed the foot is?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that might not be the right intention, right?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: So when you come back to intention, well, if I'm trying to stretch the calf, I need to flex the ankle.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's not as pretty as pointing the foot, but it's effective.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_04: So stepping away from a statics and really embracing what we know about the body because we know so much now.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_04: We have access to all sorts of things.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_04: So we should be stretching in a way that's creating more length and the target muscles being stretched, not for a pretty picture or a pretty line.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_06: And you just you said something that I think we've said on this podcast before, but like is kind of one of my personal favorite things to think about is that once you know something, you cannot unknow it.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_06: We know these things about the body now.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_06: We know what's safe, we know what's not.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_06: The research is out there.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_06: There's programs like the move method that are there.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_06: You have no excuse, you know.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_06: Like, listen, if you were ignorant before, that's fine.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_06: We've all been ignorant about many things before.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_06: Fine.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_06: No big deal.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_06: But now, now you have to move forward with this new knowledge, which the only thing you're trying to do here, Christine, is be safe.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_06: You're trying to train safely and effectively.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_06: There's no detriment to that, there's no other side of it.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_06: It's just that is what it is.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_06: And how can you say, no, that's not for me?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like, it should be for everyone.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_04: Safety is key.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we think it should be.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_05: I was gonna say, like, yeah, with the strength training and and I would also add, like, you know, the need for stabilization, that I think what people sometimes miss is that stretching is just one part of at least a triad if you don't want to add all the other components in there.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_05: But it just because, like, in a ballistic stretch, sure, you can fly your leg up there, you know, but do you know how to recruit the right muscles?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_05: So, Christine, I think that's, you know, it's fantastic that the kids are getting a dose of what does it feel like?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_05: How does this feel to your body?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_05: How is this working within your body?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_05: Because, you know, the the opposite side of it, if we're gonna go for like a really beautiful arabesque, if a dancer doesn't know how to lengthen the spine and they're just collapsing in on the spine in that moment, then you're missing what actually makes the arabesque work.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_05: You know, if you don't, if you haven't accessed the glutes in the proper way, if you aren't using, you know, there's just so many other components to it rather than just, oh, I'm gonna sit in whatever stretcher, I'm gonna work on my backbends and I'm gonna push into my backbends really hard.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_05: Well, but doing that misses the other components that make a beautiful arabesque possible.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_05: So it's, I get the focus on flexibility, but you can attain flexibility through strength training.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_05: You can attain greater flexibility through stabilization techniques, you can attain flexibility by getting to know your body better.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_05: You know, when when I was getting my master's, one of the things that I really wanted to do, I was like, oh, I want to try gyro.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_05: And uh Angie Austin, who's a master educator for gyrotonics, she was like, No.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_05: I was like, Angie, what?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_05: Why not?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_05: She was like, You have no stability and you do not know how to control your flexibility.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_05: She was like, the answer is a firm no.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_05: So what did they have to do?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_05: I had to go get certified in Pilates.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_05: And I spent two years and all of my PT was based in Pilates.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_05: Then once I got to a point where I had regrown fossil network in my back, I had done all this solid work.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_05: I really knew where I was in space.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_05: And Angeline's like, okay, but I'm gonna supervise whoever you're working with.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_05: And it was so that as I'm creating these big, beautiful circular patterns, I'm not dropping into joints.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_05: I'm being very aware of that skeletal alignment and how the bones are lining up, uh, and not falling into the flexibility trap that is hard when you don't have boundaries on your flexibility.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_05: Everything's a gray zone.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_05: There's not a black and white.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_05: You're like, okay, is this too far?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_05: And somebody's like, yeah, that's too far.
• 33:56
  unknown: Please don't.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_05: But so that that's why also, like just Christine, like that's so important that the kids begin to get a feeling for what works and what's accurate and what's and and also what they need for what they're doing.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_05: If you're going into a hip hop class, I don't want to see you sitting in a straddle.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_05: Like, like why the likeliness of you needing that is next to none.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: I just kicking off, competition season is right around the corner.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you are currently costume hunting for your solo or group dances, then I highly recommend checking out our sponsor, Dance Costumes by Urdua.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: All of their costumes are semi and fully customizable to cater to your style, design requests, and they will create the custom costume of your dreams.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: You'll stand out in the crowd with a costume that is one of a kind and designed just for you.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: From contemporary to lyrical to jazz and musical theater, Dance Costumes by Urdua has experience creating a variety of styles to complement all genres of dance.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: We are offering an exclusive promo code for our podcast listeners only to receive 15% off your custom costume.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Use the code Impact15 in all caps at checkout on dancecostumes byerzua.com.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Check out all of their designs on their website and be sure to follow them now on Instagram at DanceCostumesByUrzua.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think this is the perfect transition to go into what you wanted to talk about previously, Leslie, which is the difference between hypermobility and flexibility.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is the perfect time to talk about that.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_06: So, in in my understanding, and this is a limited understanding of just words, I haven't done a ton of research into either of these things, but in my opinion, you work to be flexible, you are hypermobile.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_06: I don't know that you can work to be hypermobile.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_06: Is that true, Mary?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_06: Knowing what you know about your own condition of being hypermobile?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, if you're working to be hypermobile, then you're working to damage your body.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_05: Case in point, a cousin of mine, she was on a highly competitive dance team out in Colorado, actually.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_05: And she herself is not a flexible person.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_05: But she was working really hard on her tilts.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_05: And in the process of performing for the company director or studio director, uh, she did a performance at the studio.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_05: And as she whacked her leg all the way up, she really pushed into it.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_05: And her muscles grabbed the hip bone and pulled a piece of the bone off.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_05: Massive.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_05: So her mom was like, Mary, can you please talk to her?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_05: And I was like, sure, yeah.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_05: I'll like, oh, you know, I'll talk to her, see what she needs.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_05: What was she saying to me?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_05: She was like, Yeah, you know, I'll get surgery and then they'll like reattach whatever they can reattach.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_05: And then I just I know that I'm gonna miss recital, but as long as I can do nationals.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_05: Nationals are in seven weeks, you're not going to nationals.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_05: But so the problem there is that she, as a non-hypermobile body, had been pushing to become hypermobile.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_05: And then on top of that, there wasn't, in my opinion, it just wasn't a good work ethic.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_05: Like, I don't want to know a 16-year-old that's had a bone ripped off, piece of a bone ripped off.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_05: And then I'm worried about are you gonna be capable of walking when you're 40?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_05: I'm walking.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_05: I stand up straight every day.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_05: I think this is an exciting thing, you know.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_05: But that, so could she work to be more flexible?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, but not with that ballistic, aggressive approach to it that ultimately led to such disparity in what she was capable of and what she was pushing for.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_06: Yikes, that sounds really terrible.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_06: So please, listeners, don't push that hard because mm-mm.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_06: And then I also want to know just from your perspective, Mary, you consider yourself to be a hypermobile person.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_05: I very much do.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_05: It affects the ligaments behind my it affects the ligaments behind my eyes, it affects the ligaments and my feet when I started wearing glasses in third grade.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_05: The eye doctor diagnosed me with relaxed ligaments.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_05: And that was the first time that I'd ever thought about it?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_05: And he was like, Yeah, straighten your elbow out, and I straighten my elbow out, and you know, it goes like six inches beyond normal.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_05: And he was just like, Yeah, see.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_05: And what I had to realize over many, many years, because there wasn't dance science, is still a newer thing, that when I would walk, my feet would flatten out and my pinky toes would be picking up.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_05: So that puts a lot of strain on the ankle and on the knees and then on the hips.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_05: And the number of injuries that I've incurred over so many years is ridiculous.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_05: And the vast majority of them were completely avoidable if there had been a training program for me at a younger age.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_04: So, yes, with flexibility, we think muscles, that's the way we think about it and move methods.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_04: So, what's the length change that muscle can go through without straining or becoming injured?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_04: So we're really focusing on muscular system.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_04: With hypermobility, some people argue that you're born with it.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_04: So you have something a collagen disorder, Mary, probably is what you have, where you have lax ligaments, and they call it Ellers Downlow Syndrome, and there's a range, just like slightly hypermobile to severely hypermobile where you're in like a wheelchair.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_04: So there is a range.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_04: Now, I would argue, I believe people can create hypermobility through overstretching.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_06: That's what that's where I was getting to.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_06: It was like, I'm I wasn't sure if that was a thing because I thought you were just born that way, but extra extrapolate more.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_04: I just don't see how we can't call that hypermobile.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_04: If somebody stretches their ligaments beyond, if you stretch a ligament, if if it goes through greater than 6% stretch, it will tear.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_04: Once that happens, they don't come back.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_04: So now you are more mobile in that joint.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_04: You keep doing it, and in my opinion, you become hypermobile.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_04: Now, people argue both sides, and I'm like, I don't think we even need to argue about it.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_04: There's just too much flexicity in the ligaments, whether you were born with it or created it.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_04: Now, now people who are born with it though, I think have other things going along with it that maybe somebody who created it doesn't.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like Mary, we were talking about, you know, even like digestive issues, or there's a whole slew of things that come along with hypermobility that we didn't even know were happening, right?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: Now, people who force it, and Mary can probably talk about that a bit more.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_04: People who force it probably aren't going to be experiencing the other underlying symptoms of Ellers Downlow syndrome because with true Ellers down low syndrome, all the collagen's affected and you have collagen everywhere in your body.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_04: So it affects all of your fascia.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_04: Now, but with dancers who are overstretching, sure, you hit a point where I would say that joint has become hypermobile.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_04: You see it in their hips all the time.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_04: They keep stretching, and now the range is just uncontrolled.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_06: Uncontrollable, right?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_04: So that's where I think it can be created, but some of the symptoms will differ between somebody who is born with it versus somebody who causes it just in their joints, you know, because they're not going to go through and create hypermobility in the fascia wrapped around their stomach or their intestines, stuff like that.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_04: So so I think it's limited to the joints, but but you can create it through overstretching.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_06: Well, and I think too, another thing to like thinking about my own body, I am not hypermobile in any way, shape, or form, but I never had good feet, so I always tried to really stretch my ankles and to try to get that, you know, really nice line.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_06: And then I also had injuries over the years, which have stretched out the ligaments on the outside of my ankle, which is why I'm going into my second ankle surgery in two weeks.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_06: Because now that ankle is hypermobile, and that makes total sense.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_06: And it it could also be, you know, don't I think dancers and listeners don't just assume that you have to push to be hypermobile.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_06: You could have an accident, you could have an injury that creates the hypermobility.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_06: You know, like I don't think had I only just stretched my foot for years to try to have a pretty foot that I would have gotten to this range of flexibility that I have that is detrimental.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_06: It was because I had loosened those ligaments enough to then be injured.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_06: And there's the hypermobility right there that I did not intend to have.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_04: And the hard thing is, like Mary, you were saying, you could have avoided all these things with like deep intrinsic training.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_04: So had you trained the deep muscles in your foot or the intrinsic muscles in your foot, it would have decreased a lot of the pain and injury you experienced over time, right?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_04: So it is important that teachers are recognizing this and saying, you know, when I have the really flexible dancers, I know who they are.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_04: Walk in the class, I can tell in two seconds.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I actually have them come out of the stretch and hold.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_04: And they're shaking and they're sweating, but they're creating strength.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_04: So we're creating, we're doing like an isometric hold to strengthen their joint.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_04: And it is so hard for them.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_04: And they're shocked at first, like, oh my gosh, don't you want to see how flexible I am?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, no, I know you're flexible, but I want you to be strong so you can support the flexibility.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_04: So their teachers need to be looking for that because if we don't correct it, they won't.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_04: The dancers aren't, they aren't thinking about how they're gonna feel when they're 40.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_04: When I tell them I'm 45, they're like, oh my gosh, you're ancient.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like that's so far away.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_04: But it's not that far away.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_04: So I think I really we always come back to teachers, you've gotta be educated because if you don't stop it, they they won't.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they'll keep going.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's I'm so glad you brought up that point.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's so important that like essentially every dancer is different that's gonna be walking in the room.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: You have a class of 20 dancers, and of course, it's hard to give individualized attention to each and every 20 dancer while they're stretching or during their warm up.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: But as a smart educator, you like you said, Christine, you can tell right away who are who are my flexible dancers and who are the ones that are struggling with with their flexibility a little bit.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: How can we cater the stretching and the strengthening towards both groups of dancers?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're not catering it to both, then you're going to be hurting one or the other essentially down the road because the flexible dancers need to have the strength to back up those stretches that are coming so easily.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: The non-flexible dancers who are working towards their flexibility need to be stretching safely and not be over stretching and pushing their boundaries too much.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that when even just talking to you guys and hearing that, I think like my approach going into warm-ups when I teach is going to have its completely different view.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I think this is very much more geared towards the the teachers who see the same dancers on on the regular.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like in studio I'm thinking of myself and like I do more guest teaching.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there's only so much that I can truly do in like a one and done type of thing.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: But like majority of the teachers listening are in studio teachers who dance who work with the same dancers on the weekly.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like there needs to be that focus that individual here am I flexible here am I non.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: How can I stretch them properly and safely strength wise and safely for my non-flexible you know what I mean?
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think that's just such an important because I think when we go into a class we just teach everybody the same thing, you know?
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean there's only so much time in class to be able to make this all happen.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: But if you have them week after week I think that's something that can be incorporated into the warmups, which another thing are we even warming up in classes?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's a whole nother discussion because I don't think that a lot of studios are actually doing a proper warm up if a warm-up at all.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: They might just say go stretch yourself for five minutes and then we'll start doing our combo or something.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah and we say no to that.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_04: No saying dance or stretch yourself.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_04: That's why having a consistent warm-up consistent stretch sequence is so crucial because A, they need to be doing it before they're going across the floor.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_04: And B, like if they have this consistency, then it actually gives you the opportunity to customize because my dancers know exactly what stretches they're doing.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_04: I can say hey when you go into cat grabs it's tail you're going to do it here.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_04: So I can start to give really quick modifications, right?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_04: But the dancers stretch on your own we all know what happens there.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_06: Straddle.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_06: Nothing nothing straddle and talk.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_06: Squat yes let's get in straddles and talk.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_05: Because they because it feels comfortable it feels good, you know, and it's what they know.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_05: It's like they don't know what they don't know, right?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_05: That's the point of getting that instruction.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah I wanted to touch on like that concept of of warmups.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_05: I had a really cool thing where Tom Welsh, who was previously a president of iAdams, wrote the book called Conditioning for Dancers, which oddly enough I had purchased before ever being at FSU and I had completely changed the kind of warm-up that I did as a performer based upon that book.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_05: And it made massive changes for me.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_05: So when I realized oh my gosh, Tom Welsh, you're already this incredible human being that has all this knowledge, he ended up being the mentor for my jazz class.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_05: And it was with that mentorship that I changed the way that I designed my jazz dance warmup because I was still in rehab for my back.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, well I'm going to be teaching multiple classes every week.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_05: How do I teach a class that's not going to leave me in pain, but maybe even makes it better.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_05: Well then that's what I did.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_05: I designed a jazz dance warmup that made my back feel better by the end of class than how I started.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_05: And so I know that it takes time and effort to do that.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_05: But like even something as simple as I put my stretches earlier in the warmup and I finished up with abs so that by the time like abdominals and conditioning and a Pilates workout at the end of it, so that when we got up to go across the floor, the body was connected again.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_05: It was reconnected.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_05: And dancers would be like oh but I need more time stretching today.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like then you do that tonight after you take a warm shower.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_05: If you do cardio tomorrow and you're all nice and juicy and you're warmed up go do your stretches.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_05: But we are not spending five minutes in a split in a class where you're dancing.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_05: That is called jet it doesn't I mean on top of that you don't anything longer than 30 seconds doesn't really do any good for you anyway.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_05: You know and so yeah like it was a really interesting process to go through and really think about the order of things and how I was teaching it and have somebody overseeing it.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_05: And and with that I will say that that dramatically affected what I how I adjudicate you know Courtney and Leslie like we've all had those conversations that there's moments where I walk I watch somebody walk on stage and I'm already like your ankle's falling okay so just based upon your ankle falling that much as you're walking I'm going to make an assumption that we're going to have some other problems.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_05: And then sure enough here come the problem.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_05: You know, they're not really getting a good plie before they take off because the knee is also falling inward.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_05: They go to prep for a neutral jazz pirouette and that front foot starts turning out because the the arch is falling and the toes you know it leads to all these other issues, right?
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_05: And so you know I'm Christine I I am so happy to have met you on this because what you're providing people is not just how to teach the class, but a greater awareness of being able to see the students for their unique capabilities and their the unique package that they bring in as a dancer.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_05: In dance like okay in music everybody gets private instruction and the only time that they come together as a group is to rehearse for a performance right that's how an orchestra does but otherwise everybody is on solo they have coaches that they work with privately that coach works with them with whatever elements that they need if they need greater volume if they need better lip technique for you know whatever for the instrument that they're playing but in dance we're always in a group setting we don't get that individualized attention unless you have the availability or the funds available to be able to do that.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I wonder if we're missing an opportunity because the kids don't get the private instruction.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_06: I mean possibly gosh that's a whole podcast.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_06: Oh that's a whole nother one but but you're right you know like you said orchestras I mean it's it's true and I think you Mary you m mentioned something that I was going to mention later that like I just I love hearing from judges like you who have this sort of Pilates dance science background because the way you judge is so precise and you can give this whole other aspect to the feedback because you have this education.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_06: And it's like I can talk about like yes I see the same thing you see with the foot turning in and the foot turning out and the ankle you know falling in.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_06: I see all of that but I don't have the right language to talk about it in the way that you do as somebody who works in that kind of anatomical way because of your education.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_06: So you know props to Courtney for hiring IDA judges who have these backgrounds because it's it is unique.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_06: It's helpful.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_06: It's something that's going to give a dancer or a teacher, a studio owner just another perspective of oh I I literally never thought of it that way because I didn't know.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_06: Bing bing bing now you know go go to move method.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_04: Well and I think yeah you're hitting on so where if we're seeing something like a foot rolling in or a knee rolling in and we don't understand the underlying reason then we can't really correct it properly right.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_04: We just start putting band-aids but if you understand the body and how it works we can go back and say actually the breakdown happened here.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_04: You know maybe it's weak out outer hips that's where we need to come and strengthen or you know yeah so it's again it's awesome you guys have qualified educated judges because I think that's really important for dancers so that when they're going to competition they're not only getting feedback on their dance but also just you recognized her posture the second she walked in and you're hitting on things that will only help her become a better dancer right she can't you can't excel if you're already running into all these issues right excel overall.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_04: So understanding the body and I feel like in this day and age there's really no reason not to have some understanding education is so easy to get now and so that we can stop like hitting because a lot of us just regurgites hate what we were taught right well they need to close their ribs but maybe it wasn't actually their ribs maybe it was the lumbar spine.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_04: So understanding where the problems are coming from helps our dancers so much more and if your judges understand that that's awesome because then the dancer not only gets this great experience on stage but this great feedback on how to improve overall in every aspect.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent I I love I love that and I hope that everybody that's listening listens to their judges' critiques and you never know what they'll hear.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: You might get some really helpful feedback y'all that it's a light bulb for everyone.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're here for.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: You never know who's sitting on that panel and what their background is and how they can really help you.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the judges are there to do.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_05: 100% we are their biggest fans.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_05: Like I literally want an IDA shirt that just says like I am your biggest fan okay I'll make it like signed IDA sign IDA judge.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_06: Right writing it down putting it in my I think I think another thing that's important to mention and you know coming from me who when I was dancing I'm just I'm not that flexible.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_06: I never was I never will be and I still had a career I still had a professional career.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah Courtney and I bought mod next to each other on Royal Caribbean in a thousand years ago and I still have the DVD.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_06: She kicks higher than I do but we had the same job and it is fine.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_06: So like when I'm watching you know we have a question here on our little piece of paper that we're looking at uh you know for the script today and I keep looking at the last one and it says from a judge's eyes is flexibility all that matters and the answer is absolutely not you know I honestly sometimes if I look at a dancer especially if they've had five solos and four of them are the same.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_06: Oh don't get me started uh and she comes out and does the same bot ma tilt she does the same Scorpion she does I'm bored I know that you have a flexible back I know that you have flexible hips.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_06: Neat what else can you do?
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_06: Because it's not the end all be all there's so much more.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_06: So to like to my dancers out there who do not they just don't have the natural flexibility and are either not choosing to pursue it or just it stops at a plateau and you can't go any further that is fine.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_06: You are fine the way you are do your very best and do it safely but if that doesn't mean your leg gets behind your head, you are fine.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's important to remember that ever like we said before on this episode in particular like every b every dancer's body is different.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody's body is going to react differently to certain stretches or maybe you're the turner maybe you can jump higher than every most I mean something that I notice often is like a lot of the flexible dancers can't jump to save their life.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're just they're stuck on the ground and they can show me a beautiful picture but then it's time to do a side leap and they can't they don't understand how to find that rotation or the same length through their lines in the sky or they don't have the elevation it needs to be able to get their whacked out hypermobile legs all the way up and back down.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean there's so many things and for me like I I feel like the memorable dancers are the ones that have a little bit of everything.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't need an overextended 180 tilt but if you're going to show that to me I want to know that you understand the control in and out of the picture.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like not all these contemporary dances these days are nothing but let me just show you my stretching.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: I love what Joey Ordellani said on an episode in like season one.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: He's like it looks like a stretching exhibition.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like it is true.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: So many dances these days have turned into a stretching exhibition but if that's what you're gonna show me and the the picture's cute, good job, but then they completely rotate in on the way out of the extension and they they don't maintain the rotation or they don't can maintain the control they just think uh it's over with I don't I I did my job and who cares about the on the way out and now I'm gonna run over here and do another one.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm like I care about the on the way out as a judge.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're absolutely your dance is going to be nothing but showing off your flexibility then you have to understand the mechanics of the ins and outs and the support and the strength behind the flexibility or I'm not impressed.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: So at the end of the day personally from a judge perspective when it comes to flexibility that's cool I'll take it but I don't want to see it the whole time.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see actual dancing I want to see you move around the stage I want to see you have style I want to see you have musicality.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: I there's so much more to dancing than just showing off your flexibility and kind of how we started this conversation.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a trend and everyone's like but it wins that's what wins so I'm gonna I'm that's I'm gonna make my dance look like that.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well at the end of the day the hard part and I always try to go back to that whenever people ask well then why does it win is because we are judging what you present.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: If it is done well that's why it's going to win.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: If it's done well just because you have nothing but stretches in your dance doesn't mean that you're automatically going to win if again you don't know how to control it.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the end of the day what we've kind of discussed in this conversation is strength and control to support your flexibility is the most important and safety.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're pretty much wrapping up.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah we didn't really we didn't really talk about we could talk about this all day we didn't really talk about like stretching tools yeah oh yeah you asked that question yeah I know and I was just I feel like they're so trendy I know we need to talk about them.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: Can we briefly talk about stretching tools?
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's like foot stretchers there's these like this crazy contraption that like you sling around your shoulder that does like a crazy arabesque.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's those like crazy resistance bands that kids like put behind their back in their straddle and their maps go like behind them.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: That hurts me just thinking about oh my gosh you guys there's so many stretching tools on the market that I'm not sure if dancers are understanding how to use safely Christine I'm sure you have so much to say about this give it to me so I'm not a huge fan of them because not necessarily the product it's the way it's used like you just said I don't think dancers know how to use it safely.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_04: Now with something like a foot stretcher here's the problem what's limiting the point is it really lack of flexibility in the anterior tibialis like are you really tight in the front of the shin or do you have mobility issues in the ankle?
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_04: Do you have weak muscles in the foot?
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_04: So there's so many other things that need to be addressed and really putting your foot in a foot stretcher and passively stretching it and if you passively stretch it in a in its end range for longer than 60 seconds we do know that you'll start to stretch into ligaments is really not setting you up for success.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_04: It might be a pretty point when you tondu but when you go to actually get power and jump off the ground and show your point in your leaps you're not going to get it with a foot stretcher.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_04: So that's the issue really is that again it's kind of like a band-aid like we think oh my foot doesn't point let's put in a foot stretcher what if that's not even the issue you might be completely flexible enough it could be strength or mobility and that's actually what it usually comes back to.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_04: Weak muscles a flat foot we need to strengthen the seven intrinsic muscles of the feet we need to work on mobility in the ankle it could be tight calves that you're not pointing properly like there's so many other things behind it.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_04: And then the bands know like when we're taking the legs out into straddle it's an absolute no for me because now we've gone into force.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_04: So if the legs are going beyond a natural joint position which if they're behind the hips that's kind of beyond our natural range so and then we move into a passive stretch and again hold for longer than 60 seconds which is what's happening they're holding these and they're holding a passive stretch at their end range for a prolonged amount of time we're stretching ligaments.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's just the science like you can't get around it and not only that you're likely creating like when they're young kids and their pelvis hasn't fused all the way then we can create a whole new slew of issues.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_04: So for me they're a no they're not necessary I really like to teach people how to stretch properly you know the dancers that we work with every week they know our stretches they stretch at home they gain massive flexibility in a safe way I do have to say we have the best hamstrings like the dancers that do our program are so they have such great hamstrings they're very flexible and they're very strong and so we don't have hamstring pain.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_04: We don't have those issues but these kids can go home they do our stretches in 10 minutes they're all flat in their splits they're all experiencing really great flexibility they're stretching safely yeah for me a stretcher if you can use it properly fine but I guess understand what your goal is with it and what the and what's actually limiting you.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_05: So just assuming a foot stretcher is going to improve your point well that might be a waste of a hundred dollars and it probably is but that's where I am I was gonna throw out there I was I actually talked to my friend Ben Howard who is assisting Teresa Judge over at the FSU campus in the PT Center.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_05: And I was like you know I've never really used I mean I've used apparatuses obviously because like with Pilates or like you use a you know all sorts of fun things but those are safely designed and effective in the way that they're utilized right and I was like what's like what's the thing that we feel like is so important for dancers and it's actually a stretch that doesn't require any apparatus and anybody can look it up.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_05: It's called the Thomas test.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_05: The Thomas test stretches uh it tests your hip flexors but at the same time the way that the Thomas test works you also get a very clear idea of how tight your hamstrings are also how tight your IT band is.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm gonna do this when I yeah you literally like okay I do it on my countertop all the time you like if you use like the end of um end of like a massage bed or something then you just you hold one knee to your chest not aggressively just casual holds in line.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_05: Uh no you're laying down I see okay that's a good you're laying down yeah you're laying down like one leg is dropping over the back edge of the bent okay table right and so then what happens is if you don't go really hard into the IT band it means that you're having to use your inner thigh to help control it and you'll see if your knee can at least get to level then your hip flexors aren't too bad.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_05: But if you can't even get the back of your leg to touch the table then your hip flexors are super tight.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_05: The other thing too is that you can see what's happening with your quads.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_05: So if the leg doesn't just hang, then the quads are so tight that it's pulling the leg up.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_06: That makes sense.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_05: So I use the Thomas test still as my main hip flexor stretch.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_05: Oh nice because it's safe just because there's a lot of control that I can do with it.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_05: It's just gravity.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_05: There's one that you can do a little bit lower that you can use the toes for but like that that Thomas test too helps you become aware of like what else do you need help with my IT band was really tight.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_05: The one stretch thing that I have is the SOS strap.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_05: There's no there's no extra there's no it's not a theraband.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_05: It's just a rope with a bunch of loops.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_05: And so for IT band stretching it's brilliant because you're not having to muscularly pull the leg to you or anything.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_05: You just get to lay there and you use gravity and a little bit of pull to get that stress.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_05: So those are like the two big ones that I would say yeah get to know the Thomas test especially if you're having a lot of trouble in your hip flexors go get diagnosed.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_05: Like go see a real medical professional somebody with potentials and then if they bring up like oh you have really tight hip flexors and you're like I heard about this Thomas test.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_06: They'll know exactly what you're talking about.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_05: They'll know what they're yeah and they can help talk you through what needs to happen.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_05: I I think sometimes we do a little too much diagnosing of ourselves.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah and just like we all know the faults of WebMD you know if you haven't flexors you're going to die.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_05: I was just on there you have a brain tumor if you have a stomachache.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's I think that's so important too because I I feel like and we've kind of some some of us have talked about like our personal journey as far as like our careers or our body uh throughout the years.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_01: And like I think that the end of the day longevity is the most important and I think that young dancers in the moment and young and parents who are dance parents they see their kids stretching all the time like have you thought about where their body is going to be by the time they graduate or by the time they are 25 years old because so many dance teachers will always say like your body's not always going to be that flexible like enjoy it now because when you turn 20 you're gonna feel it all over and like I think it's definitely true.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think our young naive brains when we're young kids are like I'm invincible I can do anything I can stretch forever and in it's so easy.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: Look how easy it is and it's like it's true.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: But also they're not thinking about long term I mean I look at myself and I've had so many different injuries that have been caused from different issues that I've been improperly training my whole life that I was never told otherwise.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I'm not a crazy hypermobile dancer but I can get my legs up there like I can do things but I've had so many crazy injuries and I think about myself and I'm like well if I am actually not a hypermobile dancer then what are what's gonna happen to all these kids that are so flexi bendy by the time they turn 30?
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like where is their body gonna be?
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what concerns me.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the most important thing that like we're trying to get out of this conversation is just longevity and safety because I think a lot of people just don't think about that for the long term that You only get one body.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: I say it all the time.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: Every time I see one of those darn knee crashes on stage, when I hear their knees slam to the floor, I'm like, you get two knees, everybody.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: Please don't smash them to the ground.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_04: One thing I want to add to that, Courtney, is that when we have to define when is enough.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_04: So, for example, we don't go beyond a closed hip split at move method.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_04: So once somebody's completely flat in a closed hip split with both legs parallel, feet are dorsiflexed, that's where you stop.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_04: And I was teaching a training recently, and one of the instructors said, Well, then what?
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I said, Well, then they get to enjoy their really great flexibility.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_04: She's like, Well, then you wouldn't elevate the front leg.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, no, because now I'm gonna go beyond the muscular system.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_04: So at some point we have to stop.
• 1:06:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_04: So I think we have to be able to go, enough is enough at some point, you know.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_04: Well, what will that dancer do when everybody else is stretching?
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, they'll be in that stretch for 30 seconds.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_04: I think they can just hold it right there.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's not like you're wasting the entire day.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_04: So we do have to, I think it's important for you know dance educators to come together and say, when's enough enough?
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like, let's say this is great flexibility, but we also want to see your quad turn and we want to see your high releve.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_04: And you guys mentioned earlier you said something about jazz doing an episode on jazz coming back or something.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_04: Like, please bring clean lines technique and jazz back.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely like I really as a parent now, now I'm a parent watching my dancer, and I don't teach much anymore.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, I do a lot of trainings online, but I don't teach out in studios very much, and now I go to the competitions as a parent, and I'm like, if I have to see one more contemporary dance that looks the same as the last one, I'm gonna scratch my eyeballs out.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_04: I wanna see like a strong Jackie Slate line.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_04: You guys remember like the perfection?
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_04: I just miss it.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_04: The high releve, the like, oh like the killer, like four pirouettes into like bang.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't know.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_04: I just miss tech.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_04: I want technique back.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_04: So do we, and I I think and I hope the trend is going back where we're like, okay, we're done with the tricks, they were cool, been there, done that.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_04: Let's show some technique.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, let's show why we actually go to the classroom.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_06: Well, and hopefully, you know, hopefully we're a part of that because I mean the two episodes Mary was on the past two seasons, technique and jazz.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_06: So like we're pushing it.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_04: Mary, we we just probably should have met before.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_04: Like sounds like we have a lot of similar.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_05: I feel like we should have, you know.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_05: And I wanted to throw this in there because I'm sure there will be another episode on this topic.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_05: But when we're talking about going beyond that safe stretch, right?
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I have friends who are contortionists.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_05: They are trained very differently than dancers are trained.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_05: It's a very different model.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_05: It's very, it's a totally different technique in and of itself.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_05: And it takes years to also develop a body into a contortionist level.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_05: And so, yeah, I I love that, Christine.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna say that from now on.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_05: Like, when is when is it enough?
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_05: When when is it enough?
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_05: Period.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and Mary, I yeah, we've had this conversation.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, contortionists train to be contortionist.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_04: Dancers are training to we you can't cross those ones over.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_04: We're asking different things from each population, and so there has to be that line.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_04: There really I do think there needs to be a clear line.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_04: 100% agree.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, y'all.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_04: But there we go.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_04: This is the one.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_04: I could talk about this for a long time.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_06: We always run into this problem.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: We get so into a subject of a group and we're like, darn, it has to end.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, everybody, listeners might not want a two-hour.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_06: No, exactly.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_06: Some people do, you know.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_06: Some people do.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: You never know.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think this is the perfect length episode, and I think that we discussed so many important things in this in this discussion.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: I hope, listeners, that you learn something new.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that this gives you a new perspective on how to stretch safely and properly for your dancers, for your students, whoever it is.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we said it multiple times on the episode, but go check out Christine's move method.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's in the link in the show notes.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely check it out.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like a fantastic program that a lot of dance educators should be getting used to using more often, please.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And to our fabulous guests, thank you so much both for sharing your knowledge and spending the afternoon with us on the podcast.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And how we typically lead out is to have you guys give a little tiny bit of advice, final words of wisdom in regards to hypermobility, overstretching, and flexibility.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_05: I was gonna say make sure that the way you're warming up your body is accurate for the dance style that you're doing.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_05: Be just as intentional in the way that you warm up the body, tune the body, as you are with the way that you approach the emotional intention of your piece or the way that you approach technique, technical proficiency.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_05: Just find that intention and be aware of the choices that you're making and make them accurate choices for what you're doing.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_04: I think as dancers are moving forward, just understanding that flexibility is just a piece of the full picture, right?
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_04: We want to be flexible, but we also want to be strong, and we also want to be really good at our craft, whatever it is.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_04: You know, the most flexible dancer in the world maybe doesn't have a strong stage presence.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_04: And the kid that doesn't have the high kick has a really strong stage presence, and they are actually doing better on stage because of that.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_04: So I think we we don't want to just get caught up in like, oh look, I can do my leg up here, so that's it.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_04: I don't need to achieve anything else, I don't need to work on these other things.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_04: So just looking at a dancer as a well-rounded individual, yes, some of our kids are gonna be more flexible naturally, and we need to work on strength and things that are going to help that.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_04: Some of our dancers are less flexible naturally.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we need to help them with their flexibility, but understand they're going to be stronger naturally, so they're going to probably be a little bit better at turning and leaps and stuff like that.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_04: So each dancer is coming with certain strengths.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I always say, let's celebrate their strengths and we'll work with them through their weaknesses, right?
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_04: Because we all have weaknesses and not getting so caught up on just one thing.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_04: We can't just think flexibility is the end all.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I own a company that teaches people how to stretch.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm still telling you there is more to it than just flexibility.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_04: So your flexibility program should include strengthening, proper conditioning, teaching this body how to align itself properly.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_04: And there's just so much to it.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I really try to encourage dancers to step away from thinking that the only thing that makes them important is how high their leg is.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_04: They are so important beyond the height of their leg.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode all about overstretching, flexibility, and hypermobility.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Be sure to follow our guests on social media.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_01: You can find Mary at Miss Mary Robert and Christine's company at Move Method.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_06: Don't forget to follow Making the Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcast, Google Podcasts, and pretty much everywhere you listen to podcasts.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you love the info that you're getting from Making the Impact Podcast and you want to support us, show your love by donating to us now on KoFe.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Every donation helps us bring you the quality episodes you expect from Making the Impact.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we truly appreciate your support.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Be sure to check out IBA affiliated competition, Gems Dance Competition.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Gems Dance Competition is a fresh dance event created by studios for studios.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Their goal from day one was to change the norm of the competitive dance industry.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Gems guarantees to provide an educational, professional, and fun environment at every event for you, your staff, your students, and your entire dance family.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_01: With full panels of IDA judges at every event and locations throughout the Midwest, we highly recommend adding Gems Dance Competition to your 2022 competition schedule.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Learn more and register now at dancegems.com and come show your sparkle at Gems Dance Competition.
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_06: Coming up in the next few weeks on Making the Impact, we've got QA with Courtney Live, the October edition, an overview of dance conventions and music 2.0.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep dancing.