Latest / Easy Double podcast / Joe Wigfield: Knocking on the Door – 62:04 Manchester Half Winner

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Joe Wigfield: Knocking on the Door – 62:04 Manchester Half Winner · Easy Double podcast

• 0:31
  Today's guest is a British athlete who's perhaps flown
• 0:34
  under the radar due to a few untimely injuries, but make no
• 0:37
  mistake, his potential is crazy. He's shown one of the most
• 0:40
  impressive ranges you'll ever see from 1:46 in the 80336IN the
• 0:45
  1500 seven 54 for three thousand, 1346 for 5K on the
• 0:51
  road, 2840 for 10K on the road and a recent 6204 in the half
• 0:56
  marathon. Simply put, he's got the tools
• 0:58
  to do it all. Joe was also part of Team G BS
• 1:01
  mixed relay team with Callum Elson, Alexander Bell and Alex
• 1:05
  Millard that competed in the Bathurst 2023 World Cross
• 1:09
  Country Championships in Australia.
• 1:12
  He's fresh off a huge win at the Manchester Half last weekend
• 1:15
  where his. I thought maybe it was your
• 1:17
  debut but it wasn't was it? You run one just a little prior
• 1:22
  and he broke the course record previously held by Jack Rowe and
• 1:27
  took down a stacked field including Johnny Miller who sets
• 1:30
  a race in the New York Marathon in a few weeks time.
• 1:33
  Welcome to the podcast, Joe Wigfield.
• 1:35
  Yeah mate, thanks for having me on.
• 1:39
  No, it's good. Thanks.
• 1:39
  Thanks for coming on. It's, it's nice to speak to you
• 1:42
  in perhaps a more controlled environment where we can feel
• 1:46
  comfortable talking, running rather than in the past.
• 1:49
  Maybe we've spoke in a pub or in a beer garden and my group of
• 1:54
  mates are looking thinking why? Why is he speaking to him about
• 1:57
  running? Your and your group of mates
• 1:59
  might be thinking the same, but we're we're in a safe space
• 2:02
  here. Yeah, we are.
• 2:03
  We are. And for context, I'm sure people
• 2:08
  will pick up, but Joe is from the Wirral, which is where I'm
• 2:11
  from. So we've kind of got a
• 2:13
  connection from back home there. In fact, Joe actually first
• 2:18
  coached me when I first got into running.
• 2:20
  So I was, I've, I am friends with Joe's cousin Sam.
• 2:24
  And Sam referred me to Joe. He's like, oh, I didn't have a
• 2:27
  clue about running at the time. He's like, oh, my cousin's
• 2:29
  pretty handy runner, he might be able to help you out.
• 2:32
  So Joe actually coached me to my debut marathon.
• 2:35
  So there's the back story. Did very well with it as well.
• 2:39
  I actually worked that day as well so I could actually coach a
• 2:41
  while being there. Yeah, I remember on the IT was a
• 2:45
  8 looped course, so I was seeing you like every 5K.
• 2:49
  Yeah. Back in the in the COVID days.
• 2:55
  Yes. Where is it?
• 2:56
  Kempton Park. I think it was only one of the
• 2:58
  few races that like actually allowed you to get get a good
• 3:03
  racing because as much as like it was an 8 lap course, it's
• 3:08
  still like, I still say it was like pretty quick and like you
• 3:13
  kind of knew how if you based it off, you train and like what you
• 3:17
  should be going through each lap.
• 3:18
  And so, yeah, he did very well. I think one thing because I was
• 3:24
  completely oblivious to training and basic principles of anything
• 3:28
  at the time. And now on reflection, one thing
• 3:30
  looking back on like some of the training you had me doing, one
• 3:33
  thing that stands out is I'm sure we had a plan down week
• 3:37
  like literally every four or five weeks.
• 3:40
  And maybe now, do you think that's overlooked a lot amongst
• 3:43
  like recreational runners? I don't know if pros take it
• 3:46
  more serious. Yeah, I reckon so definitely
• 3:49
  like I thought especially with you because obviously quite new
• 3:52
  to run in and you were someone who like did take to it very
• 3:55
  well and was able to like do a lot of mileage.
• 4:00
  Like it is important because if you're constantly going from
• 4:04
  block to block to block without really necessarily having a down
• 4:07
  week, like you're gonna end up being fatigues and like you
• 4:11
  actually need to be a bit fresh. Like I have a nice dawn week
• 4:14
  every like probably 4 to 5 weeks.
• 4:17
  Like I don't do too much running in general compared to others.
• 4:21
  But like, I think it is important because you've got a
• 4:23
  lot of like that training to settle into your body.
• 4:27
  And then it means that you can just you feel a bit more
• 4:30
  refreshed because if you if you're like a big block, it's
• 4:34
  just kind of like, you know, day in, day out, you just focus on
• 4:39
  training. Whereas if you can take a step
• 4:42
  back for a week, you kind of go in feeling a bit more refreshed
• 4:46
  for the next block. And then you kind of set your
• 4:48
  next goals there. I think it is overlooked, but do
• 4:51
  you think quite a lot of people do actually do it?
• 4:53
  And I think a lot of the way, a lot of the way things are now,
• 4:58
  like obviously with the whole double threshold, like seem to
• 5:01
  be like a lot less intensity going on.
• 5:05
  And, and I spoke to a few people in like the European circuit,
• 5:08
  like rather than, you know, going smashing sessions week in
• 5:12
  week out, like some people actually seem to be like going
• 5:15
  like, do you know what? I'm actually training a lot
• 5:17
  easier doing a lot more, but I'm training a lot easier in the
• 5:21
  sessions. And I think it just kind of
• 5:22
  allows for your natural talents come out.
• 5:25
  And then it means that you can actually focus and put a bit
• 5:30
  more emphasis on like one base at the end of the block or, you
• 5:36
  know, say you're coming into track season, you are just kind
• 5:39
  of like sharpening the tool with more than anything.
• 5:42
  So yeah, I definitely think is something important to do.
• 5:46
  I think early plug here, this wasn't deliberate, but are you
• 5:49
  still coaching? Because I really did enjoy my
• 5:52
  time with you. So with them you got spots.
• 5:57
  Yeah, I've got a few spots. I had a few people message me
• 6:00
  after the Manchester Marathon, Manchester half, sorry.
• 6:06
  Like asking for advice and all that.
• 6:07
  And like, obviously I'm happy to give advice like that, Like I
• 6:10
  want to help as many people out. But yeah, I've had a few people
• 6:13
  messaging me about coaching as well, which is good.
• 6:15
  Like it's good, just a good thing to do on the side really.
• 6:18
  Like obviously I've had you. I've had a fair few others,
• 6:21
  especially from Wallasey that I've coached before and then
• 6:25
  I've actually got a few athletes now like compete snow and the
• 6:28
  track seasons, track races. So it's nice.
• 6:31
  I'm like I'm able to stay with range of from Pete lads doing
• 6:35
  800 meters all the way up to the marathon.
• 6:37
  Like I feel like although I haven't done a marathon, I do
• 6:43
  have experience with it. I'm like as well with my job
• 6:46
  I've, I have got the coaching qualifications.
• 6:48
  So like it's not like I'm just fucking stuff off and I like I
• 6:53
  didn't have the qualifications and the experience to do it.
• 6:56
  So yeah, I'm happy to take on as many people as possible, really.
• 7:00
  Yeah, well, I think you're 6204 the other weekend over the half
• 7:04
  marathon qualifies you to coach people looking to had no break 4
• 7:08
  hours or break 3 hours in the marathon.
• 7:10
  So let's let's start with that then.
• 7:13
  So do you think that's maybe like you, your biggest win or
• 7:16
  your best run to date? Yeah, I'll definitely say it was
• 7:21
  probably my biggest win, best one.
• 7:24
  I'd say. It's definitely up there.
• 7:27
  I feel like, yeah, it wasn't my debut, but it kind of was my
• 7:32
  proper debut. Like I did do a half marathon 2
• 7:36
  weeks earlier and Ealing where I ran 66 minutes, but I just did
• 7:40
  that as a training run. I would run the Westminster Mile
• 7:44
  the day before and the idea was that I was kind of wanting to go
• 7:48
  into that with a bit of tired legs, take the first 8 miles
• 7:52
  this tempo and then go on the push on the last five miles.
• 7:59
  I think it is down to the half marathon pace That what was
• 8:04
  expecting to do in Manchester and it's because it's a new
• 8:09
  thing for me. Like I've never practiced fuel
• 8:11
  and I've never took a gel on in a race.
• 8:13
  I kind of wanted to learn from the Ealing car as much as I can,
• 8:19
  knowing that I've got two weeks later till Manchester.
• 8:23
  But yeah, I'd say definitely my biggest win.
• 8:26
  And I think with that I was more surprised with the time, what
• 8:31
  came like and I didn't. The only base plan I actually
• 8:36
  had was sits in the park for as long as I can.
• 8:40
  Me and my coach Grant talked about it and kind of said like,
• 8:44
  you know what, if they're going a bit too fast, do we sit like a
• 8:47
  little bit like 10 meters off the back?
• 8:49
  And I was like, no, I feel like it's probably best.
• 8:53
  And we both agreed that I just sit in that, sit in that park,
• 8:56
  sit in that front park because you don't want to like be
• 8:59
  detached and you want to be there if moves go on.
• 9:02
  And I've just run it as a track runner would do on the road and
• 9:06
  just wait as long as possible to make my move, which is how I
• 9:13
  managed to actually get away from Johnny and like answers.
• 9:15
  I spoke to Johnny afterwards and he was like, yeah, you're the
• 9:18
  last person I wanted to be in that last mile with.
• 9:21
  So I'm glad my just my plan worked out.
• 9:25
  So as it got towards the end then, was was Johnny trying to
• 9:28
  break you and you were like just holding on to kick down or were
• 9:32
  you pushing it yourself? So it was like there's a big
• 9:37
  group of us all the way throughout and the pace was
• 9:40
  quite fast from the start. And like I was kind of expecting
• 9:44
  maybe it to be like 440 mile, 445 mile and, and I remember the
• 9:49
  first few miles going through him in like 440 and I was like,
• 9:52
  this could be quite a hard run, but I'm feeling confident here.
• 9:57
  And then I think what actually helped me is that we slowed
• 10:01
  around 10K, which is where I actually had like a little bit
• 10:06
  of a wobble because I saw what we went through 10K and I was
• 10:09
  like, oh, that's like this could be quite quick.
• 10:12
  But then after that we slowed and like it allowed me a bit of
• 10:16
  time to let's say recover because I think we dropped it
• 10:19
  back to like 4-4 fifties. And then it got to around like
• 10:24
  10 mile, I think. And Johnny made a move to push
• 10:28
  it on because a few of the other lads like end up dropping back a
• 10:32
  little bit and I was the only one that actually went with
• 10:36
  them. And I was confident then knowing
• 10:39
  that we only did have 3 miles to go.
• 10:42
  But again, it was kind of like uncharted total territory for
• 10:45
  me. I was just like, I'm just going
• 10:46
  to have to hold on here, hold on.
• 10:48
  And I just, I just surprised me. Felt really good.
• 10:53
  I felt like I'm quite a smooth one and like I was matching him
• 10:55
  stride to stride and then I could tell he was trying to push
• 11:00
  it on. Like the last three miles were
• 11:03
  like sub sub four 40s and like I just wanted to kind of like sit
• 11:10
  with them for as long as I can. Like Jack, who has the course
• 11:13
  record and just won it many times before, he told me like
• 11:18
  just for you, just wait to the last corner.
• 11:21
  But be aware that that the last straight is quite a long
• 11:24
  straight and like you don't want to go a bit too early.
• 11:28
  And it got so late. I think I was really looking at
• 11:31
  like I could just about see the lead vehicle because there's a
• 11:34
  little bit ahead of us. And I saw the clock.
• 11:36
  It was like 55 minutes. And I was like, realistically
• 11:40
  we've got around, you know, I'm not expecting like we're going
• 11:43
  to go 160 minutes, but I was like, we've got between 5
• 11:45
  minutes and 8 minutes to go. And I was like, let's just see
• 11:51
  what happens. And I tried to, I wanted to test
• 11:54
  Johnny in the fact of like, I kind of pushed the pace a little
• 11:57
  bit to see what he would be like if, if we if it came down to it.
• 12:02
  And I pushed it like ever so slightly.
• 12:04
  And he did like match me. And I was like, right, that's
• 12:07
  just where I'm just going to sit and wait till the last corner.
• 12:11
  And then, yeah, I think probably around 2030 meter before the
• 12:16
  last corner. I just made my move and knowing
• 12:19
  that I've still got my track speed and Johnny's obviously a
• 12:22
  fast one and he has the strength and like that's where I had to
• 12:26
  play into my strength. And yeah, I just had to make
• 12:29
  sure I kicked on, kicked off. And that last last, I don't
• 12:33
  know, I think it was like 300 meters, 400 meters maybe.
• 12:37
  Knowing that it's like the last lap of a track race really.
• 12:40
  Like you're always going to try and find something.
• 12:42
  I'm not necessarily the best over the last lap and a 1500,
• 12:45
  but I've I'll be confident enough that on the boat that I
• 12:49
  can I can kick. Yeah, and I guess he would have
• 12:53
  known coming around that last corner he's like, oh shit, I
• 12:56
  haven't got rid of him because although he's an incredibly
• 13:00
  strong runner and very talented marathon, I can't compete with
• 13:05
  like one 5th 146 or like 330, whatever 1500m piece.
• 13:11
  And I was doing, I was having a look into your straw of a file
• 13:15
  and the last 5K is like 1420 odd or something, maybe even less so
• 13:21
  like it you can see where it's gone wound up.
• 13:26
  Yeah, it definitely did wind up like I think he knew he had to
• 13:29
  try and break me and I knew I just have to hang on till that
• 13:32
  last corner. So.
• 13:33
  And I think that's what I've seen made it like a nice quick
• 13:37
  time as well. Like we could have kept on going
• 13:39
  like like a little bit slow and like I wasn't aware of what time
• 13:44
  I was actually going to run. Like because the fact we slowed
• 13:47
  and because of the fact we actually run in 440 is not like
• 13:50
  4:45 at the start. Like I just generally wasn't
• 13:54
  aware of like what time we didn't even when I finished, I
• 13:58
  wasn't aware of the time. Like I spoke to someone after
• 14:00
  and they're like, you know what you're on?
• 14:01
  And I was like, no, I'm just I finished it on the watch and I
• 14:05
  saw when it came up as like 6205 and I was like quality, like I'm
• 14:11
  buzzing with that. But yeah, like it was a nice
• 14:16
  last last three mile 5K. Like it was quite quick and that
• 14:21
  definitely played to my played into my hands.
• 14:25
  So you must have been going into that with a little bit of
• 14:27
  confidence off the the Ealing run then maybe where you ran at
• 14:30
  tempo and then you've you've kind of tested half marathon
• 14:34
  pace, but you still have a certain degree of uncertainty as
• 14:37
  to whether you'll be able to hold it for the full distance
• 14:41
  Now knowing that you've run like 62 low.
• 14:43
  Does that, I don't know, does it change any of you like medium
• 14:47
  term plans in terms of your distances you're going to
• 14:50
  compete in? Not necessarily change any any
• 14:55
  of the plans. I think it just kind of these
• 14:59
  like what were B goals and I'll attend to a bit like a goals
• 15:03
  like normally go on a training camp in January to South Africa,
• 15:07
  but I'm actually of term has decided that I wanted to go back
• 15:11
  to Valencia 10K and because so many people run fast there last
• 15:16
  year and like, you know, I was kind of like, Oh, I wish I was
• 15:20
  there. I remember was doing a session
• 15:22
  and I saw all the time to come in.
• 15:23
  I was like, I wish I could be involved with that because I
• 15:26
  think I've got respectable 10K time and like that's the only
• 15:29
  10K that I've actually ever gone and raced in like knowing that
• 15:33
  what I can do over the half an hour, I think I can improve my
• 15:38
  10K time. I'm not don't know what I could
• 15:41
  run, but I'll say I'm confident and knocking, knocking a few
• 15:44
  seconds off at least. And then I, I did say that if
• 15:49
  Manchester went well, I wanted to go to where Barcelona half
• 15:53
  because if you look on the power of 10, like I think that might
• 15:58
  have popped me like 8 in the UK this year, but I'm not 100%
• 16:03
  sure. But a fair few of them were in
• 16:06
  like ahead of me where one in Barcelona.
• 16:09
  So it's obviously a quick, quick course and I think the world
• 16:13
  record was set there last year as well.
• 16:14
  So they're they're two races that I want to want to go to and
• 16:20
  I do normally do indoors, but I think I'm going to give that a
• 16:23
  miss this year. And because I thought I'm well,
• 16:26
  indoors this like past indoor season, but I want to go into
• 16:31
  summer with a bit more strength. And I think that's where the
• 16:34
  bode one will definitely help because I feel like I've got
• 16:38
  some natural speed anyway. And like when it comes to the
• 16:40
  track, like the strength will just massively help me.
• 16:47
  Yeah, because then I was going to ask you this towards the end,
• 16:49
  but I guess we're here now. So like big season looming next
• 16:52
  year potentially with with some big goals, maybe like with COM
• 16:56
  games and Europeans like big opportunities there.
• 17:00
  So hopefully build on some of your strength and take that into
• 17:03
  the track season you're thinking.
• 17:06
  Yeah, definitely. Like obviously that basically
• 17:08
  two home games, aren't they? And like in reality, the your
• 17:14
  everyone's going to want to go do the Europeans because the
• 17:17
  home games, Commonwealth's obviously up in Glasgow and the
• 17:22
  one the one thing if you look at actually within British
• 17:26
  athletics, the three laps though, in the final are all
• 17:31
  Scottish. So when it comes down to
• 17:35
  England, Wales and Scotland, like you look down the list and
• 17:41
  it's like obviously there's some quality lads in the 1500s or the
• 17:45
  5K that are English. But I feel like I could be a
• 17:50
  part of that. And like, if I can get more
• 17:52
  winter season like gone through smoothly and like injury free
• 17:57
  and start the track season quite well, Like, I don't see why I
• 18:02
  can't be involved in the conversation to get get into
• 18:06
  that England side because you know, it's anyone's game.
• 18:11
  And like, you know, people change what they're doing.
• 18:13
  People like might just focus on the 5K me people might want to
• 18:17
  do the 800 rather than 15. Like it's all look in the air.
• 18:20
  And like, yeah, definitely they're they're my goals.
• 18:23
  They're two champs that I want to make because I've only made
• 18:27
  champs as a junior on the track. And like, I definitely want to
• 18:32
  try and make it as a senior on the track.
• 18:37
  Yeah, true that. I've never thought of it that
• 18:39
  way, but I guess it's obvious because I've joked about GB
• 18:43
  claiming all of like, Scotland's talent when it suits them.
• 18:46
  But then for Comm games it kind of opens up opportunities for
• 18:49
  like the English and the Welsh lads, doesn't it?
• 18:52
  Yeah, definitely. Like definitely opens them up.
• 18:54
  Like obviously you've got Jake, Josh and Neil, they're all three
• 18:58
  of them are Scottish. And then Elliot, who obviously
• 19:01
  did go to, well, he's English. And then I'm trying to think
• 19:08
  down list, obviously got your George Mills, you've got my
• 19:10
  training partner, Sam Charik. And then you've got like a fair
• 19:13
  few others like Henry Cameron, like they're all they're all
• 19:18
  English, but I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm too far away from them.
• 19:20
  Like this track season never really went to plan.
• 19:24
  I would say I was definitely in better shape than my races
• 19:27
  showed. I was just kind of running with
• 19:28
  a with a lot more pressure than normal.
• 19:31
  So yeah, like I'll definitely say I want to push to try and
• 19:35
  make them teams. And like, I think with the right
• 19:38
  mentality, like I could be in the conversation.
• 19:43
  OK, good. Well let's get into some quick
• 19:46
  fire questions before we then kind of take a step back and go
• 19:50
  through a bit of a storyline. So I know you're no stranger to
• 19:54
  a coffee. Could you post them to your
• 19:56
  Instagram semi often? So what's your coffee order?
• 20:00
  They're just flat wise, like it depends on where you are and
• 20:05
  like what? Like I feel like a court order
• 20:08
  is quality as well, but not often.
• 20:10
  Everywhere sells them. But you just know what you're
• 20:12
  going to get with the flat rates.
• 20:15
  What's your thoughts on extra horse because I order extra
• 20:18
  horse and some people give me stick for it.
• 20:21
  Yeah, no, I'm not not fan of that.
• 20:23
  I don't like, I like it just being like, it's not like it's
• 20:27
  lukewarm, but it's like, yeah, like a good temperature to drink
• 20:31
  and like you don't want to burn in your mouth, especially if we
• 20:35
  like get a take out and you're holding it and you just know
• 20:39
  that as soon as you pour it into your mouth, you're going to put
• 20:41
  a bent on like that's not enjoyable for me.
• 20:45
  Like I understand that if you know, you're having like a latte
• 20:49
  and there's a nice big cup and you've got to get through the
• 20:51
  whole of it, but a flat white, small enough to drink like and a
• 20:56
  few swigs and it's actually enjoyable that way rather than
• 20:59
  down any song. And do you have a favorite down
• 21:03
  in Teddington? That's your base, isn't it at
• 21:05
  the minute? Yeah, so where I used to live on
• 21:11
  the other side of the high streets, there was a fair few
• 21:14
  coffee shops. I think local hair is probably
• 21:18
  the one best one down that side. But now that I've moved to the
• 21:21
  other side of the High Street, the it's a little bit more of a
• 21:24
  walk. And there's one coffee shop that
• 21:29
  it's not really well known because it's kind of off the
• 21:33
  side and it's actually a record store, but I think it's called
• 21:36
  Barren, Barren Records. And then they sell coffee and
• 21:40
  now say like probably the perfect flat weight, not too
• 21:43
  big, good beans. And yeah, like I think
• 21:47
  everyone's kind of goes to gales on this side of the high
• 21:49
  streets. But if you go go off like a
• 21:52
  little side Rd. it's there. I'd say that's the best one.
• 21:56
  Fair enough doing yourself a decent pitch for a Coffee Club
• 22:00
  appearance there. Yeah.
• 22:04
  And on the flip side, what's, what's your order at the bar if
• 22:08
  you you run a great race and you're going into your down
• 22:11
  season or something? Probably no Betty or a Sahi,
• 22:19
  I'll say they're my 2 favourites, especially in the
• 22:22
  pub that like we go to because there's actually a pub now
• 22:26
  that's just opened and it's I think it's been open for like a
• 22:30
  year now. But it's owned by Scouser and
• 22:33
  he's a Liverpool fan. My housemate used to work there
• 22:37
  as well, so got to know the owner.
• 22:39
  You've got to know all the people behind the bar so.
• 22:41
  But they sell Morattis and yeah, I've raced on Sunday and we went
• 22:45
  down there after for the Liverpool game, which wasn't
• 22:48
  very ideal, but yeah, we had a fair few Morattis there.
• 22:53
  Yeah, I'm very unfortunate on the weekend.
• 22:55
  Wasn't it one of the the Irish guy Owen who's Co host on here?
• 22:59
  He's a United fan as well and we haven't spoken about it yet, but
• 23:03
  hopefully we can just skip past. Yeah, best to move on from it
• 23:06
  really not talk about. It threshold or VO2 session.
• 23:14
  I like VO2 session. I get quite bored with
• 23:20
  threshold. Obviously you do it and it's
• 23:22
  like you've got to do it and I do a fair, fair amount of it.
• 23:27
  But I like a good version session.
• 23:29
  Like when everyone if everyone's working together and pushing
• 23:33
  hard, like if then they I'd say, yeah, it's knacker and you come
• 23:37
  off, you come out a bit tired. But knowing that you've banked a
• 23:40
  good session is like, I think it's a good feeling rather than
• 23:45
  knowing that you've, you know, you've done a double threshold
• 23:48
  that you've smashed out 1920 miles, but you've done
• 23:54
  everything. It's just gets a bit bit boring
• 23:57
  as you get around like especially in the last few reps.
• 24:01
  So if you're doing like, you know, 24, four hundreds of 30
• 24:06
  seconds, 45 seconds, like you just like, it's just boring,
• 24:10
  isn't it? By the time you get you get to
• 24:12
  like Rep 18, you've lost track and you just don't really get
• 24:18
  much like stimulation from him. You just feel a little bit tired
• 24:22
  the next day. OK.
• 24:24
  That's the track pedigree coming out and you're there then you
• 24:27
  haven't lost them to the roads yet, no.
• 24:30
  No, not yet. Team GB vest next year or a
• 24:35
  ticket to the Champions League final Liverpool win.
• 24:41
  Liverpool win. Half tights or split ease.
• 24:50
  Half tights 100% and going back to the GB question, it's not.
• 24:57
  It's only because Liverpool have gone full for when four games
• 25:00
  that when it will actually be going nice to see us win.
• 25:03
  So that's why I'm changing that currently now.
• 25:07
  OK, just digging yourself out of the hole.
• 25:10
  Yeah. Or maybe it's just
• 25:13
  self-confidence, you know, the GB vests coming Anyway, no
• 25:17
  guarantee we'll do anything. No, it's not, especially in
• 25:21
  current moments. Current road race favorite Rd.
• 25:25
  racing shoe. Because I think you have no
• 25:28
  loyalties in terms of like sponsorships and stuff, so you
• 25:31
  can speak freely. Yeah, I'd say probably I wore
• 25:37
  the fast offer ease, the Puma ones from Manchester that I just
• 25:42
  felt unbelievable the first time I actually like wore them apart
• 25:46
  from doing a few strides and then they were yeah, they were
• 25:49
  quality. I'll say before that it was
• 25:51
  probably the I did ask proof for us.
• 25:55
  I loved wearing them and braces. These felt nice.
• 25:58
  But yeah, I'll say the fast operies now, they're just
• 26:01
  unbelievably fast. I think they suit the way I run
• 26:05
  as well, like they're just quite smooth and they're you're able
• 26:08
  to bounce off your 4 fuss. Yeah, because I think some
• 26:13
  people have problems with them, didn't they?
• 26:14
  But they're quite aggressive and your style is like quite up on
• 26:19
  your toes, so they literally will just propel you forward,
• 26:22
  aren't they? Yeah, definitely.
• 26:24
  Like I think if you have if you're a bit of a heel striker,
• 26:28
  I'll say, yeah, probably not the most ideal pair of shoes where
• 26:32
  compared to like, you know, your Nike Adidas where they've got
• 26:35
  the firm the whole way throughout where I think with
• 26:38
  the fast are like they definitely have a good rocker in
• 26:41
  them. And yeah, they'd stay able to
• 26:44
  pad your signal, like a lot if you just land on that 4 foot.
• 26:50
  So Puma got a good return on their investment there, didn't
• 26:54
  they? Sending you out the kit deal for
• 26:55
  that race and you obviously got all the images coming across the
• 26:59
  line. Yes, I think I helped them out
• 27:02
  there. So I think that it worked out
• 27:06
  for them. Obviously I think because as
• 27:07
  well, I think they're trying to get a, they're trying to renew
• 27:15
  their sponsorship the next next year in Manchester because I
• 27:17
  think the other three-year deal with Manchester and I think
• 27:22
  everyone, I think everyone like the way the PM put on the event.
• 27:26
  So that definitely helps them out.
• 27:28
  You've done that before with other brands as well.
• 27:30
  Have like Adidas sent you kiss and stuff and you've raced in
• 27:33
  that? Or was that part of like the
• 27:35
  podium stuff? Yeah.
• 27:38
  So I've been quite fortunate in a way.
• 27:40
  Like obviously I did used to be with a brand, but like I've kind
• 27:47
  of reached out to a fair few brands just kind of asking, you
• 27:50
  know, will you be able to send us some kit for this race?
• 27:54
  I've senior sponsors it like I'm hoping to try and be near the
• 27:58
  front of this race and yeah, they they do send it like if
• 28:04
  it's one of them, just don't ask you don't get.
• 28:05
  And like some brands will say no and some brands will say yeah.
• 28:08
  And like as long as you post it on your social media, you
• 28:12
  actually do quite well in the base for them there.
• 28:14
  I'll say the more the happier happy to do that.
• 28:18
  I think what's quite good in the UK now is like, you know, you've
• 28:21
  got like these Friday night on the lights podium races that
• 28:25
  have brands affiliated because obviously the sport shoes and
• 28:30
  like that gives people the opportunity to know meet the
• 28:34
  brand reps and like you can get a good relationship with them
• 28:38
  and based being in Saint Mary's as well, like a lot of people
• 28:42
  have a lot of links to people people at brands.
• 28:45
  So I've been quite fortunate that I know quite a fair few
• 28:50
  people that I can just reach out to and they can try and help you
• 28:53
  out because, you know, for a brand, it's like not it's
• 28:57
  nothing to them sending them out a pair of trainers and erase
• 29:00
  kit. Like, you know, expect you're
• 29:02
  not like asking for money or anything like that.
• 29:04
  You just literally want a pair of shoes and like it goes to go
• 29:07
  a long way really. And like I think athletes are
• 29:10
  very you know, they're very happy if they get sensor new
• 29:13
  pair of training shoes or a new pair of racing shoes because
• 29:16
  they're not cheap. And then it just means that, you
• 29:18
  know, we can better see performance and better training.
• 29:24
  Yeah, good. And then you give yourself that,
• 29:26
  the opportunity to excel whilst wearing it and hopefully then
• 29:29
  you can just build on that relationship that you've started
• 29:31
  off with them, I guess is the idea for the athlete.
• 29:35
  Yeah, no, absolutely. Like if like having a good
• 29:39
  relationship with people, with people in bands, like, it goes a
• 29:42
  long way. And like, people always
• 29:44
  remember, yeah, people always like, you know, they need a
• 29:47
  little bit of help here and there, but like, yeah, getting
• 29:51
  some new kiss, being answered into actually like, actually
• 29:54
  into some races. Like they'll try their best.
• 29:57
  And that's all you can ask of them as they'll try their best.
• 30:01
  And like, as long as you know, if they are trying their best,
• 30:03
  like that's good enough for me. So can you, can you reach out to
• 30:09
  Jordan and see if he'll send you some shoes over from Eugene?
• 30:14
  Yeah, well, I think he's just started, so it did sort me out
• 30:18
  with someone on KISS. Not long a few years back, but I
• 30:24
  think I might might wait a little bit with Jordan, let him
• 30:27
  settle in. Yeah, he's he's always had tried
• 30:31
  to help me out and like I text him all the time.
• 30:34
  So it does give me good, good advice.
• 30:36
  So I think I'll stick with the advice right now.
• 30:39
  I think I've done enough for getting some some new trainers
• 30:42
  from all the other brands. Favorite distance to race?
• 30:48
  It's a tricky one now because obviously I've done loads of
• 30:51
  them. I'll still say probably in a
• 30:53
  favorite distance to race is the 1500s.
• 30:58
  I just think it's just nice that it's just especially the way
• 31:02
  it's gone, like here's one in, it's like it's essentially
• 31:06
  sprinting for four laps. Like I think there's a lot, a
• 31:11
  lot of tactical elements that go on throughout the whole base.
• 31:14
  There's lost all the stuff that goes on, whereas like some of
• 31:18
  the longer races, like you get a bit bored.
• 31:21
  I get a bit bored with them. Like especially like how I've
• 31:25
  been running them like each kind of like sit in and like it's
• 31:30
  it's good for your minds that you can just sit in and just,
• 31:33
  you know, focus on the person behind person runs here.
• 31:36
  But I think it is a little bit more fun that a 1500 then like
• 31:43
  on the all the 5K on the roads. I feel like that's a good
• 31:46
  equivalence to what 1500s like on the track.
• 31:49
  Like I do like racing on 5K on the roads because it feels like,
• 31:55
  you know, a nice hard effort, but it's over a good amount of
• 31:59
  time. And like I haven't raced a mile
• 32:01
  on the road as well. If they it feels like you've won
• 32:04
  in 400 meters on the track. That's the only way I can
• 32:06
  equivalent to. Yeah.
• 32:09
  OK. So like whichever the discipline
• 32:11
  is on the track, if you put it on the road, you have to like go
• 32:14
  up a distance almost to equal out.
• 32:17
  Yeah, yeah, that's what it feels like, like a 5K on the boat.
• 32:22
  Like it doesn't feel like you're running for like 14 on the 14
• 32:27
  minutes. Like it does feel quite quick.
• 32:30
  And like when I did the Westminster Mile, it literally
• 32:32
  felt like a 400 meter Sprint from from the start.
• 32:37
  So it just feels a bit different.
• 32:42
  Last one favorite YouTube channel.
• 32:44
  Do you consume much running content on YouTube or just stay
• 32:47
  away from it? I don't barely consume much of
• 32:51
  it. I feel like a lot of people are
• 32:53
  doing it and like it's obviously good seeing like you know, if if
• 32:58
  it comes up I will, I will watch it.
• 33:00
  But I wouldn't say like I'll go and sit there and like, oh,
• 33:03
  can't wait for this weekend video or can't wait for this
• 33:06
  person to release a video. Like I don't necessarily watch
• 33:09
  it like all the time. Like maybe a few if I have a
• 33:13
  spare 15 minutes in the video, I'll so I will watch it.
• 33:17
  But I kind of like watching like I watch podcasts on YouTube.
• 33:22
  I watch like that my Armstrong makes like cars cross damaged
• 33:28
  cars or like watching him. But yeah, the running YouTube
• 33:32
  videos that I've just you know, especially when you know the
• 33:36
  people, you know what they're doing.
• 33:37
  Like, yeah, I don't always like I know what they're doing.
• 33:41
  I see the sessions on Strava, see the sessions like when I
• 33:45
  chat to them. Like I don't necessarily have to
• 33:48
  watch a YouTube video about it. Obviously it is good for them
• 33:52
  and pub publishers and like it gets that gets their brand out
• 33:57
  there and like their their own brands and like it is a good
• 34:00
  idea. But for me, it's just I've never
• 34:03
  really been attracted to watching running YouTube videos,
• 34:06
  especially with all like it's so saturated now with all the like
• 34:10
  the influencers doing it as well, like it's all kind of like
• 34:14
  they're enough, the same thing. Yeah, it's a bit of an bit of a
• 34:19
  template that's been set, isn't it?
• 34:21
  And just kind of like copy and paste, but like the the guys,
• 34:27
  Dean and Owen, the other hosts probably won't like me saying
• 34:29
  that as soon as we have a segment called YouTube Diaries,
• 34:32
  but we're just kind of cycling through all the different
• 34:36
  channels ourselves. But yeah, you do kind of pick up
• 34:38
  the like everyone's kind of putting similar type of stuff
• 34:42
  out there. Yeah, I know you doing like
• 34:46
  obviously if it, if they want to do it, like by all means go
• 34:51
  through it. Like and it's obviously it's
• 34:53
  good for brands, it's good to have get the sponsors and like,
• 34:58
  you know, if I was supported and like I had more time to, you
• 35:02
  know, actually make a YouTube video, I probably would, but I
• 35:07
  don't have the time for that. I don't have to fund them for
• 35:09
  that. And like, I've just been for me
• 35:14
  and like I know my one of my housemates, he absolutely loved
• 35:17
  watching them. Like, but I've just never really
• 35:20
  like caught on to it, like watching it.
• 35:22
  Like I like kind of like being not involved in running unless
• 35:26
  I'm training. Like it's nice, nice to have
• 35:31
  like a bit of time away from it. That's fair.
• 35:36
  Kind of take it back to the start.
• 35:38
  Then obviously you started your track career with we're all AC
• 35:42
  as a junior, young junior. So question there is, how did
• 35:46
  you come to Wirral and how did you find running in general
• 35:50
  with? Did you play like football
• 35:52
  earlier on and someone spotted your talent OR?
• 35:55
  Yeah, so I did start with, well, I kind of got a started running
• 36:00
  because my secondary school see and Sam's like quite big in the
• 36:05
  cross country scene, athletic scene within like the English
• 36:08
  schools. And it was kind of like a bit of
• 36:12
  a decision between rugby, playing rugby and cross country.
• 36:17
  I remember that my head of PE, he said like you'd be good at
• 36:24
  rugby, but I feel like you could definitely be in like I was in
• 36:27
  year 7 at the time. He was like, you can definitely
• 36:31
  be in like the year 8 cross country team.
• 36:35
  And that was kind of just off during one training session
• 36:38
  with, with the P&P. But I always knew I was like
• 36:43
  quite quick. Like I played 14 up until like
• 36:46
  18 and I was one of the fastest on the field and like I could
• 36:50
  always just carry on running. So we kind of knew like running
• 36:53
  could be a good way and I was actually very small.
• 36:56
  I'm not not the biggest now anyway, but I was very small,
• 36:59
  especially in year 7. So playing rugby probably
• 37:01
  wouldn't have been the best thing because I was tiny.
• 37:06
  But yeah, yeah, seven are kinds of stuck with Dan Samms as a in
• 37:15
  the cross country team and then kind of moved over to they
• 37:18
  recommended me to go into Wirral as well to get some like
• 37:20
  external training. And then and it's just kind of
• 37:23
  like, obviously you're young. It's just like you turn up to
• 37:28
  the track, you're probably going to only do like a few 100
• 37:30
  meters, 200 meters. Then you end up developing a bit
• 37:34
  of like a social group from that.
• 37:36
  And then I kind of from then I stuck with and sounds stuck with
• 37:43
  Will and up until probably around year 10, which is where
• 37:48
  like I'd say I kind of pushed on a little bit in a development
• 37:52
  because it grew like I did get a little bit quicker.
• 37:56
  But one thing I always say is I was actually better at high jump
• 38:02
  than running because you have to do like them two events and like
• 38:07
  in school way, do field events and their track events for the
• 38:10
  English schools. I would always do the high jump
• 38:12
  and like I was jumping like my PB is now 176, 1 meter 76, which
• 38:20
  I was actually close to going to the actual English schools from
• 38:23
  as inside for high jump than I was from running.
• 38:28
  So I kind of when they're still playing footy on the side and
• 38:33
  then I'd say going back to school.
• 38:40
  I was going to ask you about that high jump because you can.
• 38:43
  You can see all the results. Obviously they're on your power
• 38:45
  of 10 and there's a few even pole vaults and long jumps in
• 38:49
  there. Yeah, that's because obviously
• 38:53
  in school you did. No, not at school and the club
• 38:56
  seen like you go to like the Wadi Hours, the development
• 39:00
  leagues, I think the court and you were able to do like 4
• 39:03
  events throughout the day and Wells not the biggest club.
• 39:06
  So you were able like quite a lot of people did actually do
• 39:10
  it. And I always did the high jump
• 39:12
  and I thought I'd give Paul to crack as well because it's kind
• 39:15
  of similar. But yeah, I was I was
• 39:18
  surprisingly good at high jump. I think that comes from like a
• 39:22
  gymnastics backgrounds that I used to do that I'm able to it
• 39:25
  was like I'm still able to do a backflip now.
• 39:28
  Like I was just able to jump quite high.
• 39:32
  So yeah, that that's why I'm 176 is like it was really quite good
• 39:38
  at the time. Like I think I was, I think I
• 39:40
  might have actually one year been Mersey side champion
• 39:44
  because we did have this one lads called Stephen who was
• 39:47
  unbelievable at high jump. But I think he must have been
• 39:50
  injured that year. So I'm pretty sure I could have
• 39:52
  been silver, not I've definitely got a Mersey side medal for high
• 39:56
  jump. A scene when I was looking into
• 40:00
  the results, it might have been when you jumped that 176, there
• 40:04
  was a guy who jumped 195 or something.
• 40:07
  Was that? Would they have been maybe an
• 40:09
  older age group or something? Yeah, no, I think Stephen, he
• 40:15
  was like he was quality at high jump and like he was, yeah, I
• 40:20
  think he might, don't know if he's still doing it now, but
• 40:23
  when he was younger he definitely jumped over that 2m
• 40:26
  barrier. And on that night, I think you
• 40:30
  also ran a 3K and a 2000 meter steeplechase as well.
• 40:34
  So this is busy night. Yeah, it's just honestly, it's
• 40:39
  the Wadi, I was there. You it's like a whole day and
• 40:43
  you end up doing like yeah, 4 events and then probably a relay
• 40:47
  as well. I think one thing that does
• 40:50
  stand out from you, you can the power of 10 is that like almost
• 40:54
  every year when you've been fit, you've always had the cross
• 40:57
  country season as like a base. And I think that's pretty
• 41:01
  typical amongst like kind of English kids who are competing
• 41:05
  at a decent level. So although you're a track
• 41:08
  runner, would you credit a lot of the strength that enables you
• 41:11
  to run well on the roads, just dipping your toe into kind of
• 41:15
  like that cross country background?
• 41:18
  Yeah, I think as as an elements of that, like I found I've
• 41:22
  always been quite good over the grass, over the mud.
• 41:26
  And yeah, I think it's like it's no harm.
• 41:28
  And during cross country it's like you're obviously going to
• 41:31
  get a good benefit from each race as well.
• 41:33
  And I think as well, like if you don't do the boat season like
• 41:37
  I'm doing this season, like you can't go do cross.
• 41:40
  And it's just a way of breaking up the wind some more than
• 41:42
  anything. Like unless you're going to be
• 41:44
  smashing out week after week after week of training, Like
• 41:48
  it's good to have actually a bit of focus going on there with
• 41:51
  with some cross country races. Like obviously you've got the
• 41:54
  chance of going to Europeans, got the chance to go into world
• 41:57
  cross. Like there is opportunities
• 42:01
  there to go get vests. Like there's plenty of England
• 42:04
  cross cross country vests available.
• 42:07
  So it's just a good way of actually getting out there and
• 42:10
  performing. And yeah, just a good base more
• 42:13
  than anything. Like you're doing grass sessions
• 42:16
  and they're a lot harder on your legs than just going going out
• 42:19
  and doing a session and on the track or in the park.
• 42:22
  Like it's just, yeah, it's good, good, good benefit more than
• 42:26
  anything, I think. And yeah, definitely does help
• 42:28
  going into the trap season. Now were you aware whilst you're
• 42:33
  at we're all as a junior doing these cross country seasons year
• 42:37
  on year, could can you recall and did you notice at the time
• 42:41
  the change in training through like the seasons?
• 42:44
  Really rate we changed coaches at well, because one coach left
• 42:49
  and we got another one. And yeah, I think that was
• 42:53
  probably the most significant change of training.
• 42:55
  Like as much as you can do when you you know, you're 1516, like
• 43:00
  it's not like this significant training that went from being at
• 43:04
  the club to now like there's a massive noticeable difference.
• 43:08
  But it is kinda, I remember like I think messed up every session
• 43:13
  on a Monday I did was like think it was 8 by 400.
• 43:17
  And week after week them just recovery got less and less.
• 43:20
  So you just still try and hit the same time.
• 43:23
  But yeah, yeah, the recovery's got a little bit less each time.
• 43:27
  But now, yeah, there is like a significant change of training.
• 43:33
  OK. So would you say then the
• 43:34
  coaches at Wirral, we're almost just allowing you to kind of
• 43:38
  develop naturally as you're growing and getting stronger and
• 43:41
  giving you a bit of a template to train from rather than kind
• 43:44
  of like over complicating things and trying to force training on
• 43:47
  you? Yeah, definitely.
• 43:49
  Like I think I'm, I'm pretty sure I'm saying it's like
• 43:53
  everyone at well, AC is a volunteer.
• 43:56
  So like no one gets paid to coach there.
• 43:58
  Like everyone's just doing it because they did love athletics
• 44:02
  and like either they've got kids running there or they've just
• 44:05
  been involved in the club for like over 20 years and they just
• 44:09
  there's help out. Like I think it's more just for
• 44:13
  well, is that like you get a good group of lads down going
• 44:17
  down, you get a good group of the girls.
• 44:18
  They're like going throughout the age groups and like just
• 44:21
  actually I'm a bit of fun and like, you know, actually, yeah,
• 44:25
  let me develop yourself and not I feel like not putting too much
• 44:29
  pressure on when you're definitely when you're younger
• 44:33
  does create like a bit more longevity because you see a lot
• 44:36
  of kids like now smashing the train and and like when it gets
• 44:42
  to the crucial years of your fat, like late junior career or
• 44:48
  first year as a seniors, like they're not up there because
• 44:51
  they've got like some injury issues.
• 44:52
  They've got like they've lost the love for it because they've
• 44:55
  probably been smashing it for a bit too long from like the age
• 44:59
  of like 13 onwards. Like it's like I felt like with
• 45:03
  especially with one, it's like there's a fine line between
• 45:06
  between doing too much and like it's sort of like kind of like a
• 45:10
  bit of a discipline sports and like everything external.
• 45:15
  Like you can fall out of love with it if you if it's not going
• 45:18
  too well or you've just done it for far too many years.
• 45:21
  So we've reached the point where you kinda had been progressing
• 45:25
  from high school into like either uni or college.
• 45:32
  Like was America ever on the cards?
• 45:34
  Were you always staying in the UK?
• 45:36
  And kind of like, how did you end up choosing Saint Mary's
• 45:40
  over potentially there was like Loughborough in the mix as well?
• 45:45
  Well beforehand before I actually came to uni, like I
• 45:50
  was, I was, I was at the point where I can't like falling out
• 45:53
  of love with one in a bit. Like I was at that age where you
• 45:56
  know, you start going out with your mates.
• 45:59
  Like you've kind of got other focuses.
• 46:02
  Like I remember that I think I pulled my hamstring as well.
• 46:05
  So I was kind of not barely doing too much and like I was
• 46:08
  just wanting to go out. But then America was on the
• 46:14
  cards. And I think we did visit the uni
• 46:17
  beforehand before actually come to Saint Mary's.
• 46:22
  But I went there. We made a whole trip out of it.
• 46:24
  Like we went to New York after, but I just didn't like it.
• 46:28
  I didn't like the idea of it. It just felt a bit too much
• 46:32
  pressure. That probably was because as
• 46:34
  well, like I didn't really like running at the time.
• 46:37
  I didn't I couldn't see how it would benefit me and I didn't
• 46:42
  necessarily think it would work. But like, yeah, we decided in
• 46:46
  Saint Mary's and I think we did like an open day when I was in
• 46:51
  year and sixth form and I just thought it was like, cool, come
• 46:56
  down London. Didn't really know too much
• 46:58
  about it. Didn't know the type of people
• 47:01
  that were coming here. And like, I think that kind of
• 47:03
  benefited me like one line and say Loffler was on the cards,
• 47:07
  but I wasn't able to get the grades to go there.
• 47:11
  So because it wasn't smart enough and it was this kind of a
• 47:14
  decision between Leeds and Saint Mary's.
• 47:16
  And I just thought I might actually, I wanted to give one
• 47:20
  in a crack. And based off how it was in the
• 47:23
  summer beforehand, like I kind of thought Leeds probably wasn't
• 47:27
  going to be a good idea because I love going out at the time and
• 47:30
  I probably would have got caught on a trap there.
• 47:33
  So that's when we decided on to go and Saint Mary's and I think
• 47:36
  actually got given an unconditional offer from Saint
• 47:39
  Mary's to come down. And like, yeah, but I came to
• 47:44
  uni and I was a 404, fifteen, 100m guy.
• 47:49
  So like, it wasn't like I had, you know, loads of offers from
• 47:54
  everywhere to come. Like I was nowhere near top
• 47:57
  level of age group or anything like that.
• 48:01
  Like I just decided that I wanted to move down to London,
• 48:05
  kind of have a bit of change of scenery.
• 48:08
  And I definitely say as I worked out for the best I think 100%.
• 48:14
  Well, yeah, I think you see maybe was it in your second year
• 48:17
  you won books, which is the British universities and college
• 48:20
  sports. Is that kind of like equivalent
• 48:23
  to NCAA but maybe like not as competitive?
• 48:28
  Well, the base that I won was the was actually the B race.
• 48:33
  It wasn't the A race. The A race, yeah, probably is
• 48:36
  like the equivalence of the MCA is like the fact if it's store
• 48:40
  the UNI's coming together and a big race.
• 48:43
  But you don't you kind of don't have like the same level as like
• 48:48
  I'd say there's probably now it's like 5-6 unis that are top
• 48:52
  level and running have a good team.
• 48:55
  Like obviously you've got Saint Mary's are now coming back loft,
• 49:00
  but Birmingham, Leeds, I think Oxford's up there in Cardiff.
• 49:06
  But yeah, I won the B race because I wasn't good enough to
• 49:10
  be in the A race. And that was just because the
• 49:13
  depth the Saint Mary's team had. And I think we actually won the
• 49:16
  A race as a team as well. So yeah, I just ended up being
• 49:21
  in that B race and this kind of got just worked out ideal for
• 49:26
  me, that very small name. And then was your coach from
• 49:32
  like walking into Saint Mary's, was it Craig when row or has
• 49:36
  that been more recently? No, I've always been with Craig.
• 49:42
  From the day I came to Saint Mary's.
• 49:45
  We had two coaches at the time here.
• 49:47
  There was Craig and Mick Woods and and again, like knew nothing
• 49:55
  really about it. Knew I've all kind of all my all
• 49:59
  my mates decides to go to Craig. So I followed with them and
• 50:04
  going to Craig because it was just like no experience of what
• 50:09
  coach did what and only then you there was a little bit
• 50:12
  difference between the two coaches and the coaching styles
• 50:16
  only after like my first year. But yeah, me and Craig have,
• 50:20
  we've worked together like for eight years now, even though
• 50:24
  he's still a uni coach. So I can still coaches me
• 50:27
  outside and because we're still in the same area and like it's
• 50:30
  the same for quite a lot of the other athletes that are still at
• 50:32
  Saint Mary's or still living in the area, like they're still
• 50:35
  being coached by Craig. So you've done, you've been
• 50:40
  doing double thresholds for quite a while I think in your
• 50:42
  training now, haven't you? So how was kind of like training
• 50:46
  developed with Craig, I guess and mileage as well as you've
• 50:50
  kind of got older and how much influence do you have on the
• 50:54
  train and they set you? So yeah, I've been doing double
• 51:00
  thresholds like a year now and it's kind of just become like
• 51:05
  standards in the week where we go and do it.
• 51:10
  I'd say we definitely in recent years, I have a bit more of an
• 51:16
  influence and like we kind of talk a lot between between us of
• 51:20
  like what we kind of want each week to kind of look at.
• 51:24
  And like obviously he's, he's got the expertise.
• 51:28
  He's coached many, many people before, many top level athletes.
• 51:33
  So he's got the expertise and you kind of say like, listen,
• 51:35
  I'm going, I'm thinking about doing this.
• 51:36
  Do you want to do, do you want to do this session?
• 51:39
  But it's also like, it gives me the freedom and gives everyone
• 51:43
  the freedom. Like, you know, we've got so
• 51:45
  many people, so many talented people in the area and
• 51:49
  everyone's carried down similar things.
• 51:51
  So it's good in a way that like, you know, I'm able to jump in
• 51:55
  with Jack Rowe, Adam Clark and do a session with them too
• 51:59
  because it wet. It's we're doing something
• 52:02
  similar and like they could be starting off with like a two
• 52:06
  mile tempo at the start of session.
• 52:07
  I could do a 10 minute tempo at the start of session.
• 52:09
  Pretty much the exact same thing.
• 52:11
  You're able to link in. But like in the early days I was
• 52:15
  like obviously full trust and Craig and knowing what he was
• 52:19
  doing. It's just kind of only when you
• 52:22
  get a little bit older, like it kind of gives you a bit more
• 52:25
  responsibility and what you want to do and how you want to
• 52:27
  approach each week. And yeah, definitely, I say
• 52:30
  definitely working out well now, like in the fact of performances
• 52:35
  have been going well and it's just the group's just going
• 52:39
  well. So it just kind of all works
• 52:41
  together when everyone's confidence and what you're
• 52:44
  training with and high performing in any training.
• 52:48
  So as someone who's trying to maintain like that ridiculous
• 52:51
  top level speed in the high VO2, when during a track season, how
• 52:57
  much intensity do you have through the week?
• 52:59
  Like are you just doing it a Tuesday track session or are you
• 53:02
  doing more specific stuff than that as well?
• 53:06
  Yeah, So we'll do A1 let's say like speed based our session a
• 53:14
  week and track season. But then also we would also do
• 53:19
  like a bit of a speed style strides after some tempo midweek
• 53:26
  as well, just to kind of get that sharpness and you know like
• 53:32
  not get caught up in in a bit of tempo piece.
• 53:36
  Like I feel like you do need to have a bit of sharpness and it
• 53:38
  does help, but you don't want to be killing yourself, especially
• 53:41
  when you don't like your track season.
• 53:43
  Like you'd be basing 3 * a week, maybe 2 times a week.
• 53:46
  And like, that's hard enough. And like if you're smashing your
• 53:50
  lactic sessions just every week, you're just going to be a bit
• 53:54
  bit fatigued. And like that's why we've kind
• 53:58
  of, yeah, one session a week where you kind of hit the best
• 54:01
  of them is kind of VO2 or threshold based just so you can
• 54:05
  have that bit of sharpness. And then do you always have a
• 54:10
  long run throughout the season and does the does the intensity
• 54:14
  and that ever fluctuate or is it always just standard?
• 54:19
  So in the winter we are doing a longer, let's say like I've been
• 54:24
  doing like 50 miles for a long run recently.
• 54:28
  And within the winter time it does pick up into like a bit
• 54:32
  more of a steadier pace. But in the winter and then
• 54:36
  summer, I'll be still doing a long time, probably around 11:50
• 54:40
  miles. And that's just kind of time on
• 54:42
  feet. It's not you're not picking up
• 54:44
  or anything like that. You just getting that long
• 54:46
  distance in. But I know a lot of people do
• 54:49
  like ridiculously long, long ones.
• 54:52
  And that's what I'm kind of pushing to try and go up to like
• 54:55
  get and do like 18 miles. But I'm only done really, really
• 54:59
  like 50 miles a week, 70 miles a week on some weeks.
• 55:02
  Like that's quite a lot of the percentage of the week in March
• 55:07
  will be done on the Sunday 1:00. Yeah, I've seen you've started
• 55:12
  cycling a bit as well. Is that like legit forming part
• 55:15
  of your training week? Is that so?
• 55:17
  Where's that supplementing them? Yeah, I think it, it's
• 55:21
  definitely, definitely introduced it a lot more.
• 55:24
  I kind of did it just because I came off the back of a bit of a
• 55:28
  disappointing track season according to season early after
• 55:32
  greatest champs. And I kind of just for one week,
• 55:36
  I hated running. I just thought I'd get out on
• 55:38
  the bike, go out for a few nice rides and summer and I really
• 55:43
  enjoyed it. And I felt like, you know, yeah,
• 55:45
  you're able to work your heart like being over 100 beats per
• 55:51
  minute to 130 off the hills, like for a significant amount of
• 55:55
  time. Like you can get on a bike for
• 55:58
  2-3 hours and, and not take too much out of you.
• 56:01
  So I kind of like thought, you know what, I'm going to keep it,
• 56:04
  keep it there. And like, it's just a form of
• 56:06
  breaking up your weekly running as well.
• 56:09
  Like obviously it's now got a little bit harder because of the
• 56:13
  weather here. But yeah, I'd say definitely
• 56:16
  helps. And like you see a lot more
• 56:18
  people like cross training now and like, it's just a way of
• 56:21
  getting like the load out out your body, especially with like
• 56:25
  my injury history of a few stress fractures.
• 56:27
  Like, you know, I don't want to put too much load through it
• 56:32
  isn't. That's why I've never really
• 56:33
  been able to push the miles too much.
• 56:36
  But yeah, I'd say cycling has definitely helped and like
• 56:38
  actually enjoy it as well. And like you actually want to
• 56:40
  enjoy a bit of your training. It's funny because when I spoke
• 56:45
  to Cupertier, he was saying he and Cole now do a hell of a lot
• 56:50
  of well, not a hell of a lot, at least one, maybe two or three
• 56:53
  cycles and or swims as that form part of their week.
• 56:58
  And it's a deliberate like kind of Zone 2 insertion into the
• 57:02
  week to replace just some easy running because he said they
• 57:06
  like literally can't stand easy running.
• 57:08
  And I've even like hypothesized about taking all easy running
• 57:13
  out and just having like zone 2 cross training in there.
• 57:18
  Yeah, I say it's like it's a good way of doing it.
• 57:21
  Like I'm quite fortunate. Obviously we live right next to
• 57:25
  Bushy Park, so it's a nice park to run in.
• 57:27
  But yeah, it's it's it does get boring.
• 57:31
  It gets like it actually gets tiring if you're doing a lot of
• 57:34
  easy running. So like to to break up and do
• 57:39
  some sort of other form of cross training and like, it definitely
• 57:42
  helps. And like sometimes if you're on
• 57:44
  like a Watt bike, let's say in the gym, like that can actually
• 57:47
  be like quite mentally tough as well.
• 57:49
  So it's actually probably a bit of good mental training for
• 57:51
  yourself to, you know, to be focused for that amount of time.
• 57:55
  But yeah, no, I think it is a, it's a good way of actually
• 57:59
  getting a bit more Zone 2 as called training and without
• 58:05
  actually putting the impact for your body.
• 58:07
  OK. Just to jump back to the
• 58:09
  chronology because I know we just spoke about training for a
• 58:11
  little while, jumping around, but did you have a bit of a big
• 58:14
  injury, maybe like 2021? Were you injured Quite a while?
• 58:20
  Yeah, yeah. So I got a stress fracture in my
• 58:24
  sacrum off the back of, I think it was off the back of lockdown.
• 58:30
  Yeah, it was my first ever stress fracture.
• 58:35
  Didn't even know your sacrum with a thing until I got the
• 58:38
  issue. And yeah, it knocked me out for
• 58:44
  12 weeks, no running. So today they did a bit of cross
• 58:48
  training, a bit of gym wear, and then thought I was back.
• 58:53
  And then I think after six weeks or something like that, got
• 58:58
  another refractured it. So that knocked me out.
• 59:03
  I then decided that rather than taking like the 12 weeks out, I
• 59:07
  thought I'd take 16 weeks out to actually make sure that I could
• 59:13
  like come back healthy. And I took the comeback a lot
• 59:16
  slower than I did in the first time.
• 59:19
  Because the first time you're a bit naive to it.
• 59:21
  You think, Oh yeah, like obviously coach has got
• 59:24
  experience with it, but like in yourself, you're like, oh, well,
• 59:28
  it surely must be fixed. Like that's what the, that's
• 59:31
  what the physio, that's what the doctor says, like this is how
• 59:33
  long it takes. But it was actually quite like a
• 59:36
  significant fracture line. So yeah, it took a lot, a lot of
• 59:40
  time to come back. And that's why I decided to take
• 59:43
  the 16 weeks out because I just thought, what's the point in
• 59:46
  coming back again? I'm trying to push back if it's
• 59:50
  not fixed. And then I'd rather take that
• 59:53
  extra 3-4 weeks now than having to take another 1216 weeks again
• 1:00:01
  further down the line. I definitely did help.
• 1:00:06
  I was able to come back and still run a good winter.
• 1:00:11
  But then I actually did, I think it was on the on the way back
• 1:00:17
  from Bathurst, the World Cross Relays.
• 1:00:21
  I am I felt a bit of an issue in the same area but on the other
• 1:00:25
  side of my back. And I've got a stress response
• 1:00:29
  in the other side of my sacrum, which was like very odd, Like I
• 1:00:34
  didn't know why that came because I wasn't doing too much
• 1:00:37
  running at all. So I did have 4 weeks off with
• 1:00:40
  that, but then I was able to actually come back pretty quick
• 1:00:43
  from that because it was only four weeks and it was a minor
• 1:00:46
  stress fracture. So yeah, that I think I still
• 1:00:51
  able was able to run 337 after that little stress fracture
• 1:00:55
  stress response sewing. Did did did that give you a big
• 1:01:00
  mental wobble during that period then?
• 1:01:02
  Were you kind of like questioning your motivation to
• 1:01:05
  continue wanting to be a runner and stuff?
• 1:01:08
  Yeah, definitely. I hated it, like, especially
• 1:01:13
  because seeing like what other people are doing, like seeing
• 1:01:16
  what people performing, like, it was frustrating.
• 1:01:21
  Especially on that second time. It was like really frustrating,
• 1:01:25
  like I was going through a bit of a tough time as well, like
• 1:01:29
  with my family, like my granddad died at the same around the same
• 1:01:33
  time, but so that was a bit annoying.
• 1:01:36
  But I was that's when I first got with my girlfriend as well.
• 1:01:38
  So like a lot, a lot changed in my life.
• 1:01:43
  So it was like a bit negative but good at the same time.
• 1:01:47
  And I was kind of thinking, is it worth coming back?
• 1:01:51
  And I thought I'd give it one last one chance.
• 1:01:53
  Like I think I owe it to myself. I owe it to my coach, to my
• 1:01:57
  family, and I would tell me like my girlfriend like to come back
• 1:02:00
  and I was able to come back and I'm happy I did.
• 1:02:04
  But yeah, it's a tough time, like especially knowing that
• 1:02:08
  you've done who 2 * 1 at 12 weeks, one at 16 weeks, like
• 1:02:13
  you've missed half a year with it and you just, especially on
• 1:02:17
  that second time, I didn't know if I was actually going to be
• 1:02:19
  able to come back. But then you must have quickly
• 1:02:22
  found your motivation back again because all of a sudden you
• 1:02:25
  stood there on the start line of world cross country relays next
• 1:02:29
  to the the reigning Commonwealth Games champion and Ollie Ho.
• 1:02:33
  How was, how was kind of like the experience of that
• 1:02:36
  travelling and what was quickly your was, was that your second
• 1:02:41
  GB vest you went from Europeans to Wales and then like just
• 1:02:46
  travelling overseas to represent GB?
• 1:02:50
  Yeah, that's I think that was method GB vested did one in the
• 1:02:55
  second year of uni where I went to European under 20s and then I
• 1:03:00
  went to Italy for European cross that same like a few years
• 1:03:05
  after. And then yeah, in the same
• 1:03:07
  season, let's say I did go to the world cross.
• 1:03:10
  It was kind of mad to really like you went, we went to
• 1:03:14
  Australia for a week and like obviously you know the flight,
• 1:03:17
  it's a long flight and I found them get I wanted to see a bit
• 1:03:22
  of Sydney as well because that's very fluent too.
• 1:03:24
  But we got on an internal flight the next morning to Bathurst.
• 1:03:28
  So it was a bit mental. But yeah, it was such a good
• 1:03:31
  experience. Like I've always wanted to go to
• 1:03:34
  Australia and it's maybe now definitely want to like go back.
• 1:03:38
  But yeah, just lining up on like knowing that you're in the in
• 1:03:44
  the mix of like the top level athletes all around the world.
• 1:03:49
  It's pretty mental. And like obviously we knew that
• 1:03:51
  Australia like a good side there because it would being a home
• 1:03:56
  game, home events like, yeah, racing against I think Sam
• 1:04:03
  Tanner there from New Zealand, like he was up there in the
• 1:04:06
  Commonwealth. So I'm pretty sure.
• 1:04:08
  And I think I came in on in the base sandwich between the two
• 1:04:14
  and like it was an absolute brutal course as well.
• 1:04:16
  Like one mile. I think it was bought like
• 1:04:21
  bowling hills. I don't think there's any flat
• 1:04:23
  running. I think there was a bit like a
• 1:04:25
  sun pest as well, like a mud pit.
• 1:04:27
  And yeah, it was pretty mental, pretty brutal course, but I
• 1:04:32
  think that helped me and like it kind of like gave it a bit more
• 1:04:36
  of an even playing field because I do like the cross and they
• 1:04:40
  obviously rapid 1500 meter guys. But it was, it did make me like,
• 1:04:44
  you know, come and come close to them, I think.
• 1:04:48
  Yeah, I think it came in like 5th or 6th on my leg behind like
• 1:04:54
  obviously Kenya, Ethiopia over there, Uganda think we're there.
• 1:04:56
  And then, yeah, I think Australia, New Zealand, around
• 1:05:00
  the same place as me. You know who ran the the first
• 1:05:04
  leg for Kenya? Because I was looking at the the
• 1:05:06
  results today. Was it one year only?
• 1:05:10
  Yeah, yeah, that's I've, I've always said this.
• 1:05:16
  I'm pretty sure you've been like around 4 minutes low for that,
• 1:05:23
  for that course. And like, This is why I always
• 1:05:26
  say like everyone has like, you know, their opinions on Kenya
• 1:05:30
  and all that. But I think he was like 18 at
• 1:05:33
  the time. He's built like I think we're
• 1:05:36
  in, we're in the same hotel as in it was massive then.
• 1:05:40
  And like, I saw him absolutely like sprints and mounds.
• 1:05:43
  And like, that's why like you're obviously like world champion,
• 1:05:47
  Olympic champion, like people have that, you know, opinions on
• 1:05:51
  Kenya. But I've always thought with him
• 1:05:52
  like he's clean because I saw him in Bathurst and he was just
• 1:05:58
  unbelievable there, so he just must be one of them talents.
• 1:06:04
  Yeah, that's that's crazy that you're knocking around the hotel
• 1:06:08
  doing doing a shakeout and strides with one young.
• 1:06:12
  Yeah. In typical Australia fashion as
• 1:06:16
  well, it was a blazing hot day as well.
• 1:06:21
  Yeah, it was blazing hot. But then I think we've spoken to
• 1:06:25
  speaking to some of the locals in Bathurst and they said like,
• 1:06:27
  yeah, it was like one of the hottest days, hottest weeks.
• 1:06:33
  I think it was like 36°. But the race, on the race day,
• 1:06:38
  the men's race actually got moved to being a little bit
• 1:06:42
  earlier on the day because a storm came.
• 1:06:46
  So like I think it was a bit mental like because of the
• 1:06:52
  course, it was so brutal as well.
• 1:06:54
  Like a lot of people were dropping out over the long run,
• 1:06:57
  over the long course. But I think they apart like the
• 1:07:01
  top ten, top 15, maybe top 20. They then I think they end up
• 1:07:06
  pulling a fair few people off off the course because because
• 1:07:10
  the storm like it was obviously in bass track, there was a lot
• 1:07:15
  of debris flying around everywhere.
• 1:07:18
  So it was actually it became a safety risk and yeah, I was a
• 1:07:21
  bit mental that time actually. We were even over the jet lag by
• 1:07:27
  the time you stood on the start line.
• 1:07:30
  Yeah, I was. I think I was over the jet lag
• 1:07:33
  in a fair few days. It was the way back knocked me
• 1:07:36
  out. Like I remember getting back
• 1:07:39
  into the UK and like I was knocked out.
• 1:07:42
  Like I think I was, I fell asleep at like 6:00 at night and
• 1:07:48
  woke up at 4:00 in the morning, pitch flat, like wide awake.
• 1:07:52
  So and knocked me out for a few days on the way back, on the way
• 1:07:55
  there. It was sad.
• 1:07:56
  I think obviously you've got the excitements, you've got like the
• 1:07:59
  adrenaline pumping, like knowing that you've got a base and you
• 1:08:02
  want to try and sort it out. Whereas on the way back, yeah,
• 1:08:04
  you, you're coming back. You've done your competition and
• 1:08:07
  you I was a bit injured as well, so I can't just let the jet lag
• 1:08:11
  take advantage of me. Well, as you say about wanting
• 1:08:17
  to come back, you'll have to just come for a longer time next
• 1:08:20
  time and drop the indoor season or the the cross country season.
• 1:08:24
  And. Then stick Australia season.
• 1:08:28
  Yeah, No, I do want to come back.
• 1:08:30
  I do want to go and spend a bit of time there because I think my
• 1:08:34
  brother is actually going as well, come in January, maybe
• 1:08:39
  February. So there could be a good excuse
• 1:08:42
  to go see him. Yeah, because Jake Whiteman and
• 1:08:47
  Tom Kean were out for another month or so the other year and
• 1:08:52
  done a bit of a Tour and raced a couple of times, so it's an
• 1:08:55
  option. No, yeah, definitely isn't
• 1:08:58
  obviously the good reason like instead of doing the indoor
• 1:09:01
  season like technically doing outdoor season in Australia when
• 1:09:05
  our indoor seasons going on? So coming up to 24, I think is
• 1:09:10
  this around the time you start, you signed for Hoka and started,
• 1:09:15
  was that like your first altitude camp going with them or
• 1:09:18
  you've been before? And so I guess a couple of
• 1:09:21
  questions. One, how did the Hoka deal come
• 1:09:24
  about and how did you get on there?
• 1:09:26
  And two, what's your experience from the altitude camp there?
• 1:09:33
  So I'll answer the second part first.
• 1:09:35
  Like I've been quite like with the UNI, we do go on our street
• 1:09:39
  camps. Like I went to Faulkner, MO in
• 1:09:41
  my first year of uni. That was kind of just like
• 1:09:44
  obviously a good experience. And then I went again, I've been
• 1:09:48
  been to fun like 4 Times Now, but I then went to South Africa.
• 1:09:52
  So I've been to a fair few training camps which are just
• 1:09:56
  quality. But yeah, going back to the
• 1:09:58
  hockey. So a sign of them.
• 1:10:01
  I got back from South Africa and then, yeah, I was on a one year
• 1:10:06
  contract with them so I knew it was a possibility of not being
• 1:10:09
  kept on. But yeah, then went to Font MO
• 1:10:15
  again with the coach, not not with hockey.
• 1:10:18
  Think them boys did go out there at the end of I think they were
• 1:10:23
  in Flagstaff like the rest of the hockey sponsored athletes.
• 1:10:27
  They were in Flagstaff and then they did go on another training
• 1:10:31
  camp, but I never went with them because obviously I just stuck
• 1:10:34
  with my coach. I wasn't like involved and I was
• 1:10:38
  sponsored by hockey, but I wasn't like in any official
• 1:10:42
  team. But then it was just like they
• 1:10:44
  gave me that one year contract and then obviously I went well,
• 1:10:49
  but then in fact, I'm invasion like I think APB didn't every
• 1:10:54
  event that I did do, it wasn't a significant PBM, but I wasn't
• 1:10:59
  proving like I think I knocked off a second in the 1500s around
• 1:11:05
  1:46 in the 8 hundreds. But then, yeah, I kind of got
• 1:11:11
  told towards the tail end of track season that I wasn't going
• 1:11:16
  to be kept on. I was like, I kind of knew that
• 1:11:18
  was that could have been the case, but I was kind of
• 1:11:21
  frustrated with that because I had, you know, improved and had
• 1:11:26
  PB and like, you know, as an athlete, that's all you can do
• 1:11:30
  really. Like you can't expect to have
• 1:11:32
  significant jumps every year and like not every year is going to
• 1:11:36
  go to plan. But then they kind of
• 1:11:40
  backtracked on that saying, yeah, you know what, we will.
• 1:11:44
  We do want to keep you on. And I was like, oh, that's good.
• 1:11:49
  But I kind of nothing barely happened and nothing came came
• 1:11:53
  to fortune with that. And then it kind of again went
• 1:12:01
  back to to know what I don't think we can keep you on.
• 1:12:05
  So it's just kind of like turn and throw and really and like
• 1:12:09
  you kind of just didn't know where, where, where it stood.
• 1:12:12
  And like, yeah, it was frustrating, but it wasn't like
• 1:12:17
  the most ideal thing in the world it but it can happen Like
• 1:12:20
  that is what professional sports is.
• 1:12:22
  Couple of things on that then. So when you when you joined up
• 1:12:25
  with them, did they ask you or offer for you to join that group
• 1:12:30
  with the with the other lads and did like how did that play out?
• 1:12:34
  Did you like want to stay with your coach and you didn't want
• 1:12:36
  to go over there? And the second part is, did they
• 1:12:40
  give you any sort of indication as to what you were expected to
• 1:12:44
  do in order to get the DL extended or anything?
• 1:12:48
  So there is no like never put pressure on me to join the Hawk
• 1:12:53
  group because my coach can't dead have like, you know, an
• 1:12:58
  unofficial Hawker group going on like he had with me.
• 1:13:02
  He had four other people that were with Hawker as well.
• 1:13:07
  So like, it wasn't like it wasn't like the proper
• 1:13:10
  professional group, but the Hockham athlete, manager,
• 1:13:15
  person, whatever it's called, like he had trust in my coach.
• 1:13:19
  So he didn't want to necessarily push them away from from him.
• 1:13:25
  And then yeah, they, they kind of, they obviously in the
• 1:13:30
  contract they kind of give you bonuses based off running
• 1:13:35
  performances and all that. And it's like they don't
• 1:13:39
  necessarily say like, oh, this is what we expected.
• 1:13:41
  Yeah. Like they're kind of the bonuses
• 1:13:43
  are there just to kind of for you to aim towards.
• 1:13:46
  And obviously you get some money if you do attain obtain them
• 1:13:49
  bonuses. But they didn't necessarily say
• 1:13:51
  like, you know what, like for you to get a contract next year,
• 1:13:57
  you need to run XY and Z's or make these teams or that they
• 1:14:03
  kind of just like, left it to it, which I think is obviously a
• 1:14:05
  good way of doing it because then they don't put pressure on.
• 1:14:08
  But I think, yeah, not knowing where I stood was the most
• 1:14:13
  frustrating part because I thought I'd obviously done quite
• 1:14:17
  well in improving on the PBS and running well in bases, but
• 1:14:21
  obviously just it wasn't enough, which is the most frustrating
• 1:14:24
  part. Yeah.
• 1:14:27
  Could you, you say you ran PB, you ran 337 or 336 in the 1500m
• 1:14:32
  and 146 in the 800, but in both of those races you won by over 2
• 1:14:38
  seconds as well. So like the the time doesn't
• 1:14:41
  tell the full story really there.
• 1:14:44
  Yeah, no, definitely in like I think where if I'm honest with
• 1:14:49
  myself, where some of the downfalls Ben's like his has
• 1:14:52
  been on like the European circuit, like when I've kind of
• 1:14:55
  been about my debt, like I kind of I like running from the front
• 1:14:59
  of races and like obviously with some races you kind of just want
• 1:15:03
  to get dragged round. And like I did, I was always
• 1:15:06
  doing well in domestic races, but on the European circuit,
• 1:15:09
  like they've never really gone to plan and like that's where I
• 1:15:12
  think I can make most of my time.
• 1:15:14
  But that's the way I like Burning Expression 1500s is that
• 1:15:18
  I do like, you know, running from the funds.
• 1:15:24
  Yeah, it doesn't necessarily share the full story, but there
• 1:15:28
  was opportunities, if I'm being honest with myself, where I
• 1:15:30
  probably could have gone and run faster, but it just never went,
• 1:15:34
  never went to plan. So then is the your results in
• 1:15:39
  like kind of the past two years nationals have have they been
• 1:15:42
  disappointing for you like below expectation and are are you
• 1:15:46
  quite hard on yourself with that and how do you use that for
• 1:15:49
  motivation I guess going into next year?
• 1:15:53
  Yeah, I know. They're definitely both of them
• 1:15:55
  recently have been massive disappointments.
• 1:15:57
  Like I think I've always been definitely been banked within
• 1:16:01
  the top ten, if not top aides of the UK for 1500 these past few
• 1:16:06
  years and I've never made the final up of a British Champs
• 1:16:10
  race outdoors. So like knowing that I'm not
• 1:16:15
  within, even though technically I'm banked in the top ten, let's
• 1:16:19
  say I'm not not make being in that final, not being in the top
• 1:16:24
  12 athletes is like really quite frustrating.
• 1:16:28
  I think, yeah, it does motivate me to go back and work on some
• 1:16:32
  some areas more weakness. And I kind of upon reflection of
• 1:16:38
  this year, I knew that it wasn't going to go that well, but I
• 1:16:41
  still turned up anyway. And like maybe that's where I
• 1:16:43
  need to, you know, put a bit more emphasis on like working on
• 1:16:47
  like them weaknesses that does have where it does come to like
• 1:16:53
  the British Champs. Like it's obviously going to be
• 1:16:55
  a bit more wind up and need to put a bit more focus on that,
• 1:16:58
  which is what I think we are going to be doing a lot more.
• 1:17:01
  And like drawing track season and building up the track
• 1:17:05
  season. Like it does spare me onto
• 1:17:07
  because I want to go make that final, want to be involved in
• 1:17:11
  them. Like on the cusp of a medal,
• 1:17:14
  let's say. Like why wouldn't you want to be
• 1:17:15
  in? Especially because you know,
• 1:17:17
  you've got the 2 championships coming off that are home
• 1:17:20
  championships and like you want to be there.
• 1:17:22
  And if you're not involved in British Champs final, you can't
• 1:17:26
  be there. Yeah, no, it's good.
• 1:17:27
  Sounds like you you're taking the right approach to it.
• 1:17:31
  So with you saying about doing the road season this winter,
• 1:17:34
  does that mean that you won't be looking to go to do Liverpool
• 1:17:38
  Cross and Europeans and potentially Wales again?
• 1:17:44
  I'm unsure. I'm kind of undecided on that
• 1:17:47
  aspect. Like obviously Liverpool being
• 1:17:52
  like I've run that race for so many times as it's just
• 1:17:55
  obviously a local race back home, like it's always good race
• 1:17:59
  to do. But yeah, I'm kind of undecided.
• 1:18:02
  Like I know I can go there for one to go there, but cross
• 1:18:06
  countries just like I feel like I need to kind of change up a
• 1:18:10
  little bit this season. That's what I have done with
• 1:18:12
  this road season. If it's going well on the road
• 1:18:15
  now, then I might as well continue doing that and go where
• 1:18:20
  I'm confident right now. And I think that is the vote so,
• 1:18:24
  but I'm undecided to be honest. Fair enough.
• 1:18:30
  And how how's Craig feeling about heading into next year?
• 1:18:33
  Is he pretty excited? Is he nervous or is he?
• 1:18:37
  What's the approach? Yeah, I know he's excited.
• 1:18:41
  Like I think we both knew that track.
• 1:18:45
  He's never went well, but being also knew that my races didn't
• 1:18:51
  reflect of the shape that I was in.
• 1:18:53
  I think that's why we both decided to do this those season
• 1:18:56
  because I was able to then go on and run well and win races.
• 1:19:00
  And that's what's important. So, you know, it's now we're in
• 1:19:03
  a good place and he's got to keep doing it and keep putting
• 1:19:09
  in the weeks of training and like actually get through
• 1:19:11
  healthy again. And yeah, it's definitely
• 1:19:14
  excited for the upcoming track season because not just for me,
• 1:19:20
  you've got all the lads in our group that are running quite
• 1:19:22
  well. And like, I think you know, when
• 1:19:24
  everyone's running well, like it's kind of it's always a good
• 1:19:27
  thing because the mood's higher and rounded round train and
• 1:19:32
  round the group, so they're just going to spare everyone else on.
• 1:19:35
  So yeah, definitely, I'd say we're all excited for track
• 1:19:38
  season. Yeah, when in a couple of races
• 1:19:42
  won't do the old confidence any harm, will it?
• 1:19:45
  So hopefully you can attack it from that angle.
• 1:19:48
  Yeah, I know exactly. Last thing I was going to about
• 1:19:52
  two, two last questions. The the most recent race you've
• 1:19:55
  done, because although you, you won that Manchester half couple
• 1:19:58
  of weeks ago, you, you also won a Cabbage Patch 10 mile.
• 1:20:02
  Now I've seen you've raced that like numerous years.
• 1:20:05
  Do you have an affiliation with that or is it just like
• 1:20:08
  literally very convenient? It's just very convenient,
• 1:20:12
  really like where the race is. It's based like you go through
• 1:20:17
  it goes through tenants and it starts in Twickenham grocery
• 1:20:20
  tenants and goes along the river times or back up to Richmond.
• 1:20:23
  Like it's just a good time our base to do.
• 1:20:28
  It's quite a decent fast course and like it's just always been
• 1:20:31
  something that I know I can turn up and won quite well.
• 1:20:34
  And like, there's normally good competition there, even though
• 1:20:38
  the great S on the on the weekend, the same week, same
• 1:20:41
  day, sorry, like you still get good people turned up.
• 1:20:45
  And like, yeah, like, say it's just more of a convenience thing
• 1:20:49
  more than anything else. And it's actually quite a good
• 1:20:51
  race to win as well. Because like with their work
• 1:20:55
  that I do, like you see all like the parents that of all the kids
• 1:21:00
  that I coach and like they've all seen that I've won this race
• 1:21:04
  and they've all, they've rather run it themselves or watched it.
• 1:21:08
  So like, it's kind of good knowing that everyone around the
• 1:21:11
  area is not knowing who I am. It's good for the profile.
• 1:21:16
  Yeah, definitely. Does a scene that the Manchester
• 1:21:20
  half came with A2 grand payday for the win?
• 1:21:23
  Did they come with the course record bonus or not?
• 1:21:27
  I don't think so, no. Nothing been said of it.
• 1:21:31
  But like because of going back to I didn't know what time I was
• 1:21:36
  going to burn. I didn't really look at the fact
• 1:21:39
  of that, if there was a course course record bonus, but I know
• 1:21:44
  Jack, whose course record it was, he wasn't too happy with me
• 1:21:48
  beating her. So I think it might be back next
• 1:21:50
  year trying to take it back. You'd have to go back and defend
• 1:21:53
  it as well. You couldn't let it go
• 1:21:55
  unscathed. Yeah, nothing.
• 1:21:58
  I think we'll go back and try and defend her, especially
• 1:22:01
  because of training with Jack quite a lot.
• 1:22:02
  And like, he's an unbelievable athlete.
• 1:22:05
  He's a great runner. I think it'll be a good thing
• 1:22:08
  for us both to go do and try and run together.
• 1:22:12
  He could maybe help me trying to get a quick time because he's
• 1:22:17
  just, yeah, he's quality of running.
• 1:22:19
  So you could definitely try and help me run round and yeah, I
• 1:22:22
  could make it quite a good race. All right, then very last
• 1:22:28
  question. We have a segment on the, on the
• 1:22:30
  weekly show called Double Trouble where we we might say
• 1:22:34
  something that's like either annoyed us, what we've observed
• 1:22:37
  on Strava out there running or like just in general, like a bit
• 1:22:41
  of a hot take what might get us into trouble or controversial.
• 1:22:45
  So I'll help you out because it didn't didn't prepare you for
• 1:22:48
  this. So Andrew Koskran said the long
• 1:22:51
  run is overrated and Kupertier said like easy runs, he would
• 1:22:58
  fuck them off if he could basically.
• 1:23:01
  So where do you stand with the hot take Double Trouble?
• 1:23:08
  I don't know there's that's a tricky 1.
• 1:23:14
  I think I must have to agree. Like the easy ones, like I'm not
• 1:23:18
  the biggest fan of them. They're a lot harder to do.
• 1:23:22
  You can get yourself up for a track session, get yourself up
• 1:23:25
  for a long run. I do like the long run but
• 1:23:30
  haven't really got like a hot take about.
• 1:23:34
  Running Joe, thanks very much for your time and all your
• 1:23:38
  insights like really appreciated.
• 1:23:39
  Although we've got a relationship from back home,
• 1:23:45
  it's nice to like talk running with you on a deep level and go
• 1:23:47
  into your journey. So hopefully some of our
• 1:23:50
  listeners can follow your journey into next year and
• 1:23:53
  beyond as well. Oh, yeah.
• 1:23:55
  Thank you very much all. Right mate, speak to you soon.
• 1:24:00
  Cheers mate, nice one. The.
• 1:25:57
  The.