Latest / Legal Late Night / Legal Marketing in the AI Era: Generative SEO & Attorney Influencers (Chad Sands, CloudLex)

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Legal Marketing in the AI Era: Generative SEO & Attorney Influencers (Chad Sands, CloudLex) · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show for you, the promises to be mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. First, I want to talk about how lawyers should be thinking about what to do with their employees as AI comes to the fore hint, it's not firing them. Then we talk with Chad Sands, the original voice of Poochie from the Simpsons and longtime legal software marketer about the state of the legal industry. Finally, Chad and I take a trip through the Urban Dictionary, which goes very sideways. Legal late night is on, if you're a law firm owner and you're getting keyed up about ai, there's probably a few things that have you excited. One is more efficiency, two is cost savings, and three is really a subset of cost savings. But it's that you can fire a shit ton of your employees because you're going to be using AI instead. (01:05): And right now, this is mostly focused on generative AI and tools that are built into existing systems that you have. But eventually this is going to be about bringing in AI robots to replace standard employees, which is kind of fucked, but that's definitely the direction we're going in. Now, your employees, on the other hand, aren't going to be like, yes, sir, please replace me. So there's this interim period where you kind of have to figure out what you're going to do for your staff. They're not just going to want to be like, let me legislate myself out of existence. They're going to want something else, and that's something else is the ability to continue to work within your business or to work with a different business. So the trade-off is more like revamping their skillset. So what does that mean? I think he's a business owner, especially a law firm, business owner, and you're like, Hey, I'm going to take away all this rope stuff from me. (02:11): You don't have to do it anymore. The robots are going to do that for you now. You need to be looking at upskilling them. So I don't think it's enough to just be like, Hey, we're going to replace some of this shit with AI and just trust us that you'll figure out other stuff to do. You want to be actively thinking about, okay, how I upskill this person if their job doesn't involve this 30% of what it used to involve, what does it involve? Now, the idea when using AI is that there's going to be higher order tasks that people can utilize. Well, what might those tasks be and what's dropping off their plate? So I think you want to be real careful about this because you obviously don't want to be in a position where you've got a million disgruntled employees working for you. (02:53): Whereas before pre ai, everybody was pretty happy in their roles. They could coast a little bit, right? So have the conversation with your staff persons as you start to adopt AI regardless of what your plans are, and suggest to them that there is a pathway for them, which by the way, I legitimately think there is for them to keep working in your business with AI in place. And it's all about upskilling. So figure out how are you going to upskill your employees, be transparent about it, talk to them about it, and come up with a real plan. Because before we get replaced by ai, I feel like we got a good three months to go. Just kidding. It's going to be longer than that. Now, next up, we've got Chad Sands. He has a pinata. No, he doesn't have a pinata, but you should stay tuned. Anyway. Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast. So I'm simply going to turn around. No, I'm just fucking with you. That sounds terrible. That's awful content. Let's interview our guest instead, our guest today. Happy to have him back. Friend of the pod, Chad Sands, the vice President for marketing at Cloud. Lex. Chad, welcome back. It's good Chad Sands (04:14): To be here. It's good to be here, Jared, and hopefully it's slightly better than you turning around in terms of entertainment and content for the audience, Jared Correia (04:22): Just looking at my back. Chad Sands (04:23): Yes, but since this, welcome to Jared Correia (04:26): The show. Chad Sands (04:27): Since this, this is Jared Correia (04:28): Why we do video. Chad Sands (04:29): Yes. Now that you do video, since this is a late night legal show, I thought I'd enjoy a beverage for late night. I thought I was buying a beer from Massachusetts, your hometown, but it's not. So I'm going to enjoy a cold brewski. And then I also think, I know you could have joined me, I should have let you known ahead of time, but maybe we could also have a secret word for the audience at home that whenever you say AI or PeeWee's Jared Correia (04:59): Playhouse. Yeah, Chad Sands (04:59): Yeah, that there's We drink it Jared Correia (05:01): Can have a drink. You know what, I'm going to get a beer. There you go. I'll be back. Chad Sands (05:04): That's right. Jared Correia (05:05): I'm going to enjoy a little bit of a waffle burger. Okay. I'm enjoying very waffles, which is from Treehouse Brewing at a New England, Massachusetts, Boston-based brewery. Chad Sands (05:15): Okay. I'm enjoying Pliny the Elder, which is I think a well-known beer, but I thought it was from the East coast. But then I actually asked GPT and it's not, it's from Sonoma County. So it's tragic Jared Correia (05:28): Now. Everyone just washed me open a beer can with my teeth, but that's what I do. Chad Sands (05:31): I was trying to give you some love, some Massachusetts love. Jared Correia (05:36): I appreciate that. You surprised me with the beer though. I'm delighted. This thing is definitely going to go off the rails now. Chad Sands (05:42): Well now you're a late night show now. Jared Correia (05:45): Now we're real. So can we talk about your day job for a little bit? Chad Sands (05:49): Sure. Jared Correia (05:50): What's going on at Cloud Lex? Just give me the HAPS Chad Sands (05:53): Cloud Lex. We're staying busy. We're staying focused on pure plaintiff personal injury. We're not deviating dedicated to that space. We're expanding our platform as we like to call it, more than just case management software. So interesting. We're integrating services like medical records retrieval. We're also slowly taking a responsible approach to ai. That's how we like to call it. So we're releasing new AI features and I think someone who has been in legal Tech for a while and worked at multiple different companies, it's good to see that we're kind of staying our course and staying focused and not getting, I think, too distracted. So I feel like everybody's Jared Correia (06:34): Like, let's do AI Chad Sands (06:36): Shoot against the wall. Yes, we had a quick meeting and we were not going to rebrand a cloud L AI that was off the chart to you. Yes, we are releasing and doing some testing with some of our AA features right now to roll out next year. But yeah, I've been here over three and a half years, so it's my longest tenure at a legal software company. So enjoying it, and I think we're doing Jared Correia (07:04): Awesome, Chad Sands (07:04): Doing some good stuff. Jared Correia (07:06): We'll have the link in the show notes. Chad Sands (07:07): There you go there. Jared Correia (07:08): Here's my cloud Lex pitch. Here's my pitch for YouTube. If you're on the video and you're watching us on video, Chad SAD has TLJ on it, which I got to say I want to call this out. This is a custom made cap. Chad Sands (07:22): It's one. It's a one of one Jared Correia (07:23): Right now. Yes. And TLJ stands for Trial Lawyers' Journal, which you were basically like, fuck all this noise about the internet. I'm going to do a print journal. I was, so could you tell me about that kind of Chad Sands (07:39): Zag? Yeah, Jared Correia (07:40): I think that's interesting. Chad Sands (07:41): Well, I mean, I think you have to factor in a little bit of my background. Since I have worked at three different case management software companies over the past eight years, I think I still would like to confirm or not, but I feel like there's nobody really like me in legal tech. I've worked at my case, Smokeball now Cloud L. Most of the players in legal tech have kind of stave put. So I feel like I've seen a lot of different things and over those eight years making so many eBooks and webinar landing pages, I think it took its toll. And so yeah, we came to Cloudless and we really wanted to have this strategic effort and to kind of reshaping the narrative about the ambulance chaser and what kind of personal injury law firms deal with. So we did, this is the volume two of the Trial Lawyers' journal, and this was, Jared Correia (08:32): Look at the cover art. Chad Sands (08:33): Yeah. Cover is that Goose? That is a goose. So that is actually artwork from Tanya Kagan who did her arts in this, and Jared Correia (08:41): Shout to Tanya. Chad Sands (08:42): There's, I see there's a sitting bowl. There's an article about what trial lawyers can learn from Sitting Bowl, and so there's kind of references. I did an interview with one of the best golf course photographers in the world actually. Really? Yeah, and so there's just incredible, Jared Correia (08:59): Is this the lawyers golf? Chad Sands (09:00): Yeah, lawyers golf connection. I mean, I golf and I'm the editor of it, so I wanted to put it in. Oh, that looks amazing. He takes great photos. The cover was illustrated by this guy in Germany who I did an interview with. I'm going to release that soon. So it's really just now we're getting other trial lawyers to contribute articles. I'm working on volume three that will be released later this year. I have my own podcast. So yeah, cloud X is the sponsor and presenting sponsor of it, and it's just something that's been creative and exciting and it's something different. I think a lot of times in legal marketing, I can only take so many banners that tell me how software helped increase my caseload by a thousand percent in 15 minutes. So Jared Correia (09:48): Yeah, differentiate you a little bit. So this is volume three that's coming out? Chad Sands (09:53): Yes. Volume three coming out. Jared Correia (09:54): What is the frequency? Just when you have the bandwidth or do you have more radio Chad Sands (09:58): Frequency of that? Right now? We do two issues a year. I think you will be now in volume three. We have your, oh yeah, I wrote an article about, we have your article for the Bill Parcells Jared Correia (10:09): Article. Yes, yes. Chad Sands (10:11): Although Jared Correia (10:11): Now I feel like I need did a little Bill Parcell's, bill Belichick thing, Chad Sands (10:16): But Jared Correia (10:16): I feel like I need to add some, can we do a postscript on Don Hudson? You Chad Sands (10:20): Might have to update that. I mean, should we talk about I'll work on that. I don't want to talk about Belichick actually. I don't really like that guy, but yes, you do. I think, Jared Correia (10:27): Well, it's a good time to, not Belichick. Chad Sands (10:29): This is true, but for the record, I never liked him because I was a Seahawks fan and not a Patriots Jared Correia (10:34): Fan. I get that. I totally get that. Chad Sands (10:37): Yes. Jared Correia (10:39): So as you mentioned, you've worked for a bunch of legal tech companie. This is true, which gives you this interesting perspective. Do you think the market for case management software is this cutthroat has always been, or are things changing? Chad Sands (10:52): I think that's an interesting question. I think that things are changing, and I wouldn't say it's necessarily becoming cutthroat, but it's definitely changing in some kind of weird ways. I would say I see kind of some rise of these attorney influencers who are kind of becoming spokespersons for softwares. Jared Correia (11:13): Oh, interesting. Chad Sands (11:14): I Jared Correia (11:15): Haven't noticed that. Individual attorneys who actually practice law you're talking about. Chad Sands (11:18): Yes, yes. I've seen a couple in the PI space who are kind adopting and becoming ambassadors of some platforms. I see other attorneys trying to build their own platforms. I think that some of the consolidations that are going on is making it a little bit or makes it seem a little bit more friendly, but I think it's very fierce in the competition is only increasing over the years. Costs are going up for customer acquisitions and paid media, and that's never going to change. It's a friendly field out there, but at the same time, we're all fighting for the same customers, and it's a finite amount of so many firms who decide now's the time to change software. Jared Correia (12:04): The total addressable market for law is relatively small, like 10.3 million attorneys in the US and not all of them are buyers. So the marketplace for people that you can actually sell legal software to is really finite, like you mentioned. Chad Sands (12:20): And now trying to imagine for Cloud Lex where we're just playing a personal injury. So that's even a more finite Jared Correia (12:26): Amount. So in terms of strategy that you're seeing out there are people moving away from just like, Hey, let's throw everything into search-based marketing. You're doing the trial lawyers' journal, which I think is really interesting. Are people advertising on Reddit, social media? Is that stuff starting to happen, do you think? I think that's someone destructive for law firms. Chad Sands (12:51): Yes, I do. I mean, I think that honestly, with legal tech companies, the channels are pretty much still the same over the, even since I first started eight years ago. I think there's kind of those new areas where you could test ads on Reddit, but for the most part I see the same stuff and maybe more investments now in events and throwing your own events Jared Correia (13:15): Only more Chad Sands (13:16): Mean or throwing your own conference or these virtual day long workshops where they pull together people. I think there's more of a focus also on customer marketing. And then there's also just now the shiny AI object that everyone, most people are just trying to hang out there and flash, and that is just getting people's attention and is an easy door opener. One thing I would say that has changed, for example, on the legal software side, there's this idea of outbound sales and eight years ago maybe having a team of sales development reps who were fresh out of college just dialing all day long trying to get ahold Jared Correia (13:57): Of, yeah, dialing for dollars is definitely a thing and probably is definitely a thing that these Chad Sands (14:01): Companies, it's still a thing, but I think that's just becoming so much more difficult and nobody really wants to talk on the phone or take a sales cold call. So I think that's kind of dying out. And you see more things like podcasts or something really with the trial lawyers journal, what we're trying to do. Jared Correia (14:17): That's good. I think Chad Sands (14:18): In a way, yes, there's still the time tested channels that are just now more costly than ever, like Google PPC, and just like it is for law firms out there, PPC costs are getting higher for them. It's same with the legal software companies because we're all fighting for those few keywords and just outbidding each other and going up the ranks. Or you look at a company like Gartner who owns a software advice in a Capterra, and if a lawyer calls software advice, software advice actually makes more money selling that lead to five different legal software companies, then actually the software company will make probably for that contract. So those are where the channels are still out there. The leads are still coming from there, but the costs are just going up. So I think on the flip side, just for law firm owners, you're kind of have those same channels that are just getting more and more expensive. And so where else can you go to stand out? Jared Correia (15:14): I mean, a lot of the AI conversation is bullshit talked about, Chad Sands (15:17): But Jared Correia (15:20): I think something that's not bullshit is the AI presence and search Chad Sands (15:24): Now. Jared Correia (15:24): Yes, because you've got AI overviews, which are at the top of the page now above paid ads, and then you've got AI search engines like perplexity, and then you've got people doing traditional Google searches in an AI generative AI tool like chat gt. So it's like, what are your thoughts on that? Are you thinking about that as in terms of how you Chad Sands (15:48): Market? Jared Correia (15:49): How does that change things you're doing? Is that just better content? What's the play there? Chad Sands (15:53): I mean, honestly, I think we're now just at that crossroads in transitions. I think it's called GEO or generative. It's not SEO, it's GEO. And I think that it's going to take a while. You know what I mean? And I saw an article or a post from Gee the other day, Jared Correia (16:12): Gki Chad Sands (16:14): Is one of his clients, friend of the pod attorney sake, friend of the pod had an 600% increase on impressions, but zero clicks or something and the clicks are going away. The impression still might be there. And I think that on the flip side, I can still use chat GPT to create an FAQ article post and get index that position zero already. So it's like Google's still picking up the AI content. I think that over the next year or two, there's going to be a number of vendors who offer this specialized software for tracking organic search results from AI platforms. And so you're going to have to pay and subscribe to those. And so it's going to eventually, I think over the next year or two, we'll start to get the playbooks that everybody can start to follow just like they did 10, 15 years ago. For SEO, what do you sell? What do you think? Jared Correia (17:12): I think it's really interesting. The thing that's interesting to me about it is the placement more than anything else. If I can get into the AI overview for free simply with my effort and that's ranking better for me than the local service ads, I'd be fucking all in on quality content. If it were me and I'm doing ai, I'm doing searches, I'm seeing what's linked out from the AI overviews. Chad Sands (17:39): Yeah, Jared Correia (17:40): I'm writing my content on those subjects. Chad Sands (17:42): Yes, Jared Correia (17:44): That's what I'm doing as an attorney. That's the first step I'm taking. I think you're right. The metrics aren't quite there yet, but that's something that you can grasp ahold of and be like, I can talk about the same shit that this person did and maybe market it more effectively. Chad Sands (17:58): Yeah, clicking those Jared Correia (17:59): Loop, I think it's crazy. Just quickly, the other thing is I'm seeing some jurisdictions that are more rural or where there are fewer attorneys and they don't have content about a subject matter. So Google's like, oh, go talk to these three law firms, which I'm sure internally they hate because those people aren't buying ads, but they're basically just serving free ads for people. So I think it's a real competitive advantage if people want to that down. Chad Sands (18:23): That's a huge point in terms of the AI results and how that compares to traditional paid search, not just organic. And I think yes, if you're looking at those AI search results and kind of clicking on those little chain icons and seeing what populates on the right and what those articles are, and hey, why did Cleo get indexed and we didn't, or vice versa, well then why don't you take a look at that article and see what it says and see what it's structured us, how it's built. Jared Correia (18:52): Yeah, because obviously Google, in addition to the AI stuff, they're also really mandating stronger content than they have in the past. Chad Sands (19:00): Well, Jared Correia (19:00): The same cheese ball bullshit content you've done before is not performing as well. Chad Sands (19:05): Well, I mean, and that's where the SEO recipes of structure and internal linking and external linking are those all the telltale signs that are going to get you an ai. I don't have the answers to that yet, and I think we'll kind of slowly start to see that. But obviously Google's probably saying they're excited about ai, but on the flip side, they're like, shit. You know what I mean? Jared Correia (19:28): I guarantee you they're sitting the office being like, fuck, we need to leverage this for ad revenue. Chad Sands (19:33): But they're also just like, everyone, just look at the YouTube ad revenue. Let's focus on YouTube revenue because that was a great investment if you really look at it. You know what I mean? We make more than Netflix on YouTube revenue alone. So YouTube, I'm going to let Ted talk about paid search though, Ted. Ted, you're up. We're down a little bit on paid search, but ai, we have AI to answer that, and I'm going to let Eric talk about ai. Eric, Jared Correia (20:01): I like how you moved into the different voices. Here's 10 executive at Google. This is what I do, this is what I do. Alright, so that's a good segue because when you cracked open your plenty of the elder, you were like, let me talk about big texts influence on video. Chad Sands (20:18): I did. Jared Correia (20:19): So I know nothing about this. I'm going to grab my tinfoil hat. What are your thoughts here? Well take a breath Chad Sands (20:27): And let me gather my thoughts. Well, I guess first I'll ask, do you agree that there is a push from big tech to go to video? Jared Correia (20:35): Oh, hell yeah. Chad Sands (20:36): Yes. Jared Correia (20:36): Everything's video. Chad Sands (20:38): You go to the conferences, all the people are like, everyone likes video, LinkedIn algorithm likes video, you got to do more video. And I just say, I'm just like, really? Do you have to do more video or what was wrong with the written word? And especially work for fucking Pliny the elder. Jared Correia (20:55): Pliny the elder was not recording YouTube Chad Sands (20:58): Shorts. I'm Jared Correia (20:58): Fairly certain Chad Sands (20:59): That's true. That's true. And I also feel that I'm kind of an old school guy. I went to film school not to be an actor or be in front of camera. I wanted to be behind the camera. And I just feel like some people belong behind the camera and some people are more camera ready and belong in front of the camera. Not us. We belong on camera. But it's like, I just feel like now, I mean, it's like I've imagined, okay, do I have to film a day in the life video that I see out there? And then I think that video would be pretty sad in a lot of ways. Jared Correia (21:37): My God, I know how depressing would it be? Chad Sands (21:39): My alarm goes off at seven 10, but I hits snooze because I don't want to get up. Instead of eating a nice bowl of oats, I have a diet Coke I don't eat. Jared Correia (21:49): This is why no one does real life taking life videos. I woke up at six 30 because my kid woke me up too early and I was pissed off and I yelled at him, and then I stumbled down the stairs and peed on my legs. That's like the real day in Chad Sands (22:02): Life. That's the real day in the life. But now we're just getting AI day in the life versions of people. So I think the video thing is, I think that it is big tech just pushing more agenda of, Hey, this is how you guys should be using our platforms and doing things. And now I feel like kind of is LinkedIn just kind of the middle-aged baby boomer equivalent of TikTok and they don't know it, but there's now millions of people who log into LinkedIn every day with the intention of doing business just like a lot of tiktoks tiktoks do. Yeah. I Jared Correia (22:40): Dunno. The daily LinkedIn post, Chad Sands (22:42): Yes, Jared Correia (22:43): People are going to be like, stop talking about this because I feel like I talk about this. Every episode is the fucking bane of my existence. If you don't have something to say, don't fucking say it. You don't have to post every single day. I know the algorithm algorithm, Chad Sands (22:56): But you don't have to post every day. Jared don't have to. If you just stay posts consistently, then you could maybe see the reach that you want. I don't think that's true. I think there's engagement bats and little pods out there. Oh, Jared Correia (23:08): Absolutely. Yeah. Chad Sands (23:10): I mean some people have Jared Correia (23:11): Changed. If you're posting every day, you're in a pod of some kind and you've got people who are amplifying your content that's absolutely happening. Chad Sands (23:17): Or you're like the John Rambo who still posts every day but doesn't get involved with the pods or refuses the ghost writers. Jared Correia (23:26): Let me ask you one more question, which I'm always interested in. One of the things that I think is stuff in terms of branding, which I seem to be talking to people about regularly, is there's a corporate voice and then there is a personal Chad Sands (23:39): Voice. Jared Correia (23:40): Even if you're a solo attorney, if you're speaking as the law firm, you got to do that a little bit differently than if you're speaking on your personal accounts. I mean, you're a guy who's on social, you post on LinkedIn Chad Sands (23:54): Little bit Jared Correia (23:55): Regularly and other places, and you've got stuff that's coming out on for the cloud. Lex, Chad Sands (24:00): That's true Jared Correia (24:00): Brand. So how do you thread that needle? What's too corporate for a personal post? What's not corporate enough for a corporate post? Chad Sands (24:07): I think that's a tough one because some people would argue, well then you have to be more authentic and there shouldn't be any blurring and that you should be your true authentic self on your company posts as well as your individual posts. But I think that the reality is is that even I think pushed by AI, that we're actually just becoming more and more vanilla and it's safer to just not be yourself or potentially accidentally insult or offend somebody. And it's just easier to have chat GPT, give me the response or Jared Correia (24:47): The embedded AI that a lot of how many times do you go on LinkedIn, for example? And they're like, would you like AI to write your post? Chad Sands (24:52): Yeah, sure, Jared Correia (24:53): I'd like to do nothing. Chad Sands (24:54): Yes, I know. So I think that when it comes to the corporate messaging versus yourself, I mean if I was a law firm owner, I think honestly, depending on the size of your firm, I interviewed a guy like Mike Morris who owns the biggest law firm in Detroit, a Michigan, and it's the Mike Morris law firm. What I mean, and he's pretty connected to that firm, but it's a huge firm and you kind get an idea of who he really kind of is and it's pretty genuine. And I think that kind of comes across in his messaging and advertising. And then, I mean, not to pick on Morgan and Morgan or John Morgan or anything, but I don't really know for the people. Yeah, I don't know John Morgan. I know he's for the people and size matters, but I feel like that's an example of just maybe more corporate messaging and branding and marketing, you know what I mean? Versus going back to who you really are. And for me, when I do post to LinkedIn, I just post for myself. You know what I mean? I don't get any engagement and I don't post every day and I don't (26:08): Want to do that. You know what I mean? It's not as important to me as some other people, but maybe that's a mistake. I don't know. I know. Is it? I Jared Correia (26:18): Don't think so. Chad Sands (26:19): I don't think so Mean, again, I think that LinkedIn has become essentially a TikTok for grownup adults and they have been kind of trained and told that, oh, I need to come here. I need to post every day. I need to engage. And that's what I'm just supposed to be doing right now because that's what everyone else is doing, think that's what's happening. And I think it's kind of sad when people are using AI and kind of admitting to using ai, especially for comments and stuff. It's like that's just getting so Oh, Jared Correia (26:53): Comments. Yeah. I don't want to live in a world where ais are talking to each other. I agree. AI are too safe. They're not going to say anything to offend anyone. Chad Sands (27:04): No. Jared Correia (27:05): And that's just not my deal Chad Sands (27:07): Until they start thinking that way and want to take us over and offend us and then they'll fucked Jared Correia (27:13): Anyway. So yeah, whatcha going to do? What do you think like five, 10 good years left before the AI apocalypse hits? We get Skynet. Chad Sands (27:22): I mean I think it's going to be a number of things have to come into play. You know what I mean? The robots kind of have to be built and the robots have to do their thing and AI has to be able to be there and humans have to be stupid enough to just miss a couple things. And then Jared Correia (27:38): It's kind of like if we got that one on Chad Sands (27:39): Lock, but we just have a little bit more time to make sure it's validated completely and that Jared Correia (27:48): The robots are going to be fucked up though. I got Roy from the Jetsons in my house doing shit. That's going to be weird. Chad Sands (27:55): And Tesla's so excited that the robot can now you just do the dishes and it can watch you and now it can do the dishes for you. And so that's where I just feel like it's, you know what? It goes back to Jared, please go on. Private equity and corporations and the corporate greed that drives America. And this goes back to big tobacco and I Jared Correia (28:18): Love this. Go on. Chad Sands (28:19): I went to Mass Torts made perfect in April, which is the big conference and all the PI attorneys are there. That's right. Do you know one of the big mass torts coming out here? And Mike Papantonio taught me about this is the ultra processed foods. Are you aware of Jared Correia (28:35): This? No. I dunno what an ultra processed food is. You like Oreos. Ah, who doesn't like Oreos? Chad Sands (28:42): It's fucking un-American not to Oreos. So just history here. When big tobacco companies kind of got squeezed and they had all these food dyes and food colorings and they knew they couldn't make tobacco anymore, so they bought up all the food corporations and so they started putting all that stuff into the food that we eat and now here we're in 2025 and there are type two diabetes and kids under 18 and that didn't exist. That's fucking Jared Correia (29:10): Crazy. Chad Sands (29:11): And that didn't exist when we were growing up. And so that's the whole ultra processed foods, but it's really about private equity and private equity driving and getting into industries and looking for investments, profit margin. Just for example, Mars Inc. Right? Did you know that they own about 15% of vet clinics in the Jared Correia (29:30): United States? I didn't know that. I like how conspiracy Chad is. This is Chad Sands (29:36): Not conspiracy, this is Jared Correia (29:38): No, it is the truth. Chad Sands (29:40): Yes. Jared Correia (29:41): Here's your platform, do your thing. Chad Sands (29:43): Now I kind of feel like I'm like Brendan Frazier in the whale or something where I'm just like this lonely guy in this apartment and I'm like, Jared Correia (29:52): I'm just fucking reading Reddit Chad Sands (29:53): Threads every night. Private equity, Jared Correia (29:58): I mean it's not good. Profit is not focused on people, obviously. It's simply focused on Chad Sands (30:05): Making money. What does a Candy bar company have any interest in helping your pet be healthy for an affordable cost? Seriously? Seriously. Have another Milky Way you fat Fuck. That's right. Not only why don't you buy another Milky Way? You can take your sick vet into our clinic and we're going to run extra tests and tell you to come back in two weeks or more tests so they can hit their quota to get 15% back to their investors that they promised on their Instagram ad that they served up two years ago. Okay, now I need to go eat a pizza like Brendan Frazier and the Whale and just Jared Correia (30:42): Let's take Chad Sands (30:42): A break. You want Jared Correia (30:43): To hang out a little bit longer? Yeah, take a break. We'll do one more Chad Sands (30:46): Segment. Okay, let me cool down. Lemme cool down. Jared Correia (30:49): Okay, we'll be back in a moment with Chad. Welcome back everybody. That's right. We're at the counter program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics. I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests, expect no rhyme and for any little reason chat, I was initially thinking I wanted to do a segment with you called Hanging Chad, but I didn't think anyone would know what that was. Do you want to briefly explain to people what hanging Chad is? I feel like I know. Chad Sands (31:25): I think honestly the hanging Chad might have been the first kind of catalyst for the attack of the name Chad that has occurred the past couple decades. Shameful. But the Hanging Chad was made famous in Florida during the election of, gosh, was it Bush? Which one was it? Bush Gore. Bush Gore 2000. And the hanging Chads was part of the ballot and it was hard to read. We can't count those votes because it's just kind of there. You know what I mean? Push your pencil through but not all the way through. It's like can't you just follow directions, Chad? It's like you're just hanging there. And so the hanging Chad for some people ruin the nation when Gore lost the election there and since then, the name Chad through the millennials has kind of been, you feel like Jared Correia (32:17): Chad are being attacked? Chad Sands (32:19): I do. I think we got to make Chad's great again. Jared Correia (32:25): So what I said V instead was a new recurring segment that I'm going to launch with you. I think you can take it, I'm going to call it Suburban Dictionary. Okay, here's how it works. Two middle-aged white guys, and by the way I can be confident that I'm talking to is that us, a middle aged white guy because it's a legal podcast. Yeah, that's us in this case, we're going to discuss the website Urban Dictionary, which is one of my favorite websites ever. I'm simply going to name a hip and Koran phrase and you just have to pick the right definition. Chad Sands (32:56): Oh gosh, this, Jared Correia (32:57): I'm going to say what the phrase is and then I'm going to give you two definitions and you had to pick the right one. And these are new to me as well, so don't feel ashamed if you do poorly in this. Chad Sands (33:07): Am I one for one with hanging Chad? Jared Correia (33:09): Oh yeah, absolutely. I bet you could find hanging Chad on Urban Dictionary that I haven't looked. Alright, phrase number one is bean soup. Bean soup definition number one. Chad Sands (33:21): Wait, is it bean soup or bean soup? Jared Correia (33:24): Bean soup. Like beans, like the legumes in soup. Okay. Okay. Definition number one bean soup is in reference to a TikTok video where a creator posted a recipe for soup and then receives a comment asking, but what if I don't like beans or Be soup refers to when you saw your jeans, but it's diarrhea. Ew. Which my daughter just wifi and said, Ew. Ew. What a perfect cameo. Okay. Is it the question of I don't like beans or is it the diarrhea? Chad Sands (33:59): I'm going to go with your daughter's vote and I'm going to go number two. Jared Correia (34:04): Number two, literally. Actually it's the first Chad Sands (34:07): One. See, it's TikTok though. Jared Correia (34:10): Yeah, yeah, it is TikTok. Okay. So being soup or being bean souped is a phenomenon in which a user is unable to recognize that not all content is directed toward them. A normal user would realize they don't identify with content and move on. But a being super, so you can be super would interact in opposition and usually unintelligently too. Here's how you curl your hair with a curling iron and a bean super would say, what if I don't have any hair? I think this is a social media trend that makes a lot of sense. And also in the legal context where lawyers are so embedded in law, that's the only thing they're interested in. Yeah, I failed on, so we want something today. I mean this is not, I'm not we'll grade on a curve. Chad Sands (34:53): Okay, okay. Okay. Although I've talked to people that grading on a curve, especially for law students, isn't the greatest thing for their mental health. But I need the curve on this one. Jared Correia (35:02): Yeah, we'll take a chance on it. Alright, are you ready for the next one? Chad Sands (35:05): Yeah. Jared Correia (35:07): And by the way, just to give you some cover here, I've never heard any of this shit either. Chad Sands (35:11): Okay. I think I'm reaching that age where urban dictionary was really foreign, you know what I mean? I felt good with, I know with hanging Chad and like, oh, that's kind of like pulp culture from the two thousands. I can do that, but Jared Correia (35:25): Okay. Hey, my son was talking to me about something the other day and I've never heard of that shit before in my life. Okay, so here's another good one. Tennis wees. Tennis wieners. Okay. I play tennis. Is it when you whip it out at the tennis court to scare away the pickleball players or is it an unexplained chronic pain in the skin? Often turn the wieners attached to your elbow. It may often occur when the we is Chad Sands (35:57): Scraped. It's tennis. Elbow is tennis elbow. I would say tennis weenies is the first option. Jared Correia (36:07): Actually. Number two, Chad Sands (36:09): Sorry. Well, I mean you kind of tipped me off at pickleball. I did. I did real quick. I grew up playing pickleball before everyone thought pickleball was cool because pickleball be serious how I grew up playing pickleball in the eighties. Okay, because pickleball was invented. Jared Correia (36:24): I thought it wasn't even invented then Chad Sands (36:25): You're like, see, you're like that guy on social media. You're like a super beaner. What are you just believe everything's message. Message to you. Jared Correia (36:34): How about being super, what the Chad Sands (36:35): Fuck you think just pickleball just came out of nowhere the past three years? Pickleball has been around for decades. For decades. Jared Correia (36:44): Please go on. I grew up eighties pickleball. Chad Sands (36:47): I had a pickleball court at my childhood home. I played pickleball in Washington state. My high school had pickleball tournaments and then anyways, so now everyone's playing pickleball and so I thought it maybe was an urban dictionary. Now I got into pickleball and I picture young kids doing graphic things on pickleball courts and obviously I was wrong though. I always thought just tennis elbow was tennis elbow. What is the no tennis wiener? What is the, Jared Correia (37:18): I'm going to start using this in my everyday life. Chad Sands (37:22): Are you telling me that I can go to the tennis club and go up to the people at the front desk and be like, my tennis wiener is out of control right now? I think Jared Correia (37:29): You can. Yes. I don't think that's fair Chad Sands (37:32): Game. I think I would be asked to sit down over here for a minute because your membership's been revoked because you can't go talking. You can't go going around talking about your tennis sweetness. Is that right? Jared Correia (37:45): Yeah, I think that's fair, but I got an even better one. I got an even better one for you. Alright, number, you're over two so far, but that's all right. You've got time to redeem yourself. Chad Sands (37:54): Wait, who's keeping score? Jared Correia (37:56): I am. I'll keep score. Mentally. Bed led. Bed led. Is it when you're so tired you can't get out of bed on a Friday morning and you have to skip work? Or is it a term used to describe the act of shitting on a bed? Is it shitting on bed or not being able to wake up on a weekday bed letting this is going to be part of my usual vocabulary. Chad Sands (38:26): This is what the kids see. This is why I have angst against youth. I feel like this is all the kids. I feel like you're like a 20-year-old kiss making fun of me and I don't know what you're talking about. Jared Correia (38:41): It makes you feel better. I'm kind of making fun of myself as well. Chad Sands (38:44): Okay, so this is bed lead. Is that what it Jared Correia (38:46): Is? Bed lead Like lead the what you make Chad Sands (38:49): So you can't get out because you're so tired or you shake the bed so you just Jared Correia (38:53): Shit the bet. Yeah. Chad Sands (38:54): I'm going to go with, because the Urban Dictionary is part of pop culture, society and youth coming up with these terms, right? Jared Correia (39:03): Youth culture. Yes. Chad Sands (39:04): Youth culture. I'm going to go number one. It's number two. Literally. Can I just ask you, you might be the only person to go. Oh, for seven. Yeah, go ahead. Can I just, wouldn't you just say I shit the bed? Why do you got to come up with the term? Why do you got to come up with the term that's bed led? Oh, you bed led are that many college kids, you know what I mean? Where it's like what can only hope. Yeah. Where it's like, dude, you bed Letted last night, bro. No way. I did it last weekend. It's like Jared Correia (39:37): I say, I kind of enjoy it actually. Alright, here's another one for you. This is like you got a 50 50 shot. Chad Sands (39:46): No, I Jared Correia (39:46): Don't. No. All right. Jelly Jo ho. Jelly jo ho. Is that a jealous female ho or a jealous male ho or abo? Chad Sands (40:03): What do you think? A jelly jo Hoe Jared Correia (40:05): Jelly Jo ho. It's either a male or a female Ho. Chad Sands (40:10): I think that's, Jared Correia (40:10): And if I have to explain what a hoe is, perhaps this is not the podcast for you, but go on. Chad Sands (40:14): I mean I know it's a commonly used backyard tool. Oh, for Jared Correia (40:17): Sure. Yeah. Chad Sands (40:18): Gardening. I think that a jelly Joe hoe. I got to go number Jared Correia (40:22): One female hoe. Chad Sands (40:23): Yeah. Jared Correia (40:24): Congratulations. Chad Sands (40:25): Then I got one. I got one. Keep going. One. Right? And that's because I feel like I see these mean frat kids, you know what I mean? And they're all broing out and she's like, she's just a jelly jo hoe dude, don't worry about her. Or is it mean sorority girls who are like, oh my god, she's a jelly jo hoe. Don't even forget about her Jared Correia (40:45): Either way. I think it's female and you're probably doing it. You're probably saying that right after you finished your tech stand. Chad Sands (40:50): Yes. Yes. The fourth one of the night Jared Correia (40:54): Right before the Chad Sands (40:56): Cops come. Jared Correia (40:57): I got two more for you. The last one is my favorite. Chad Sands (40:59): Favorite. I can't believe I got the tennis one wrong. I do play tennis. Jared Correia (41:02): You got to look up on that tennis wees. You got to make sure you take care of that. Chad Sands (41:06): I can't say that. I can't say that. That's down the tennis court. I Jared Correia (41:12): Got two more for you. The last one is my favorite, which I've saved it for last, but this is actually taken from Urban Dictionary National Hate. Your friend named Chris Day. Chad Sands (41:24): Chris gets a lot of bad stuff too, I Jared Correia (41:25): Guess. Is that a day to hate your friend named Chris or ironically, is that a day to hate your friend named Chad? Who do you hate on the national hate? Your friend named Chris Day. Chad, don't overthink this. Chad Sands (41:39): I see what they're doing. I see what they're doing. I think it's to hate Chad. Jared Correia (41:46): Here's how they define it on Urban Dictionary. Tom. Oh, hey Chris, Nick. No, it's national Hate your friend named Kriste Tom. Okay, fuck you Chris. I don't even know what's happening there. Chad Sands (42:01): See, that's what I'm talking about. I think kids have these conversations and they think it's funny or amusing and Jared Correia (42:07): Nothing is amusing about this. Chad Sands (42:08): No, no, it's not kids, Jared Correia (42:11): Fellow kids. If you're listening, you're not Chad Sands (42:13): Funny. Hey. Yeah, that's right. All the kid listeners out there, you're not funny. Jared Correia (42:18): Which are many. Chad Sands (42:19): Yes. Our audience is huge. All your listeners, all your Jared Correia (42:21): Listeners children listen to the show all the time Chad Sands (42:24): Now I feel a lot of pressure. I really got to get this last one. Jared Correia (42:28): This is a good one. This I have to say, I don't want to build it up too much and have it be unimpressive, but this is my favorite one that I found. Rio Speedwagon, which is something you and I can connect to right, is an Rio Speedwagon when you're comfortable but suddenly need to take a shit and finally do so after several minutes of contemplation because you can't fight that feeling anymore. Chad Sands (42:52): Another defecation reference. Jared Correia (42:54): Yeah, that's what Urban Dictionary is. Or is it a 1980s pop band famous for the song Time for me to Fly? Underrated. RAO Speed Wagon song, by the way, is it number one? You can't fight the feeling of hitting the Chad Sands (43:11): Head anymore. It can exist as both, right? It's either one or two can Jared Correia (43:15): Exist as both. Yeah, you could choose both and I Chad Sands (43:17): Can choose both Jared Correia (43:20): And I might lean in that direction. Chad Sands (43:21): I'm totally lean in. I would say that they somehow discovered this great classic song from the eighties and now kids are just like, it's just so funny because Chris or Chad couldn't make it to the bathroom and he had an REO Speedwagon and it's National Hate Kris Day. Jared Correia (43:37): That was a perfect summation. Chad Sands (43:39): Thank you. Jared Correia (43:39): See, I think the next time I have to rush to the bathroom, I'd be like, I got to hit an RO Speedwagon. Chad Sands (43:44): I'm just going to start screaming. I can't fight this Speedman just like get out of my way. Get out of my way. Jared Correia (43:53): May I read the description on Urban Dictionary Chad Sands (43:55): For you? Please, please. Jared Correia (43:57): I was watching tv, but a mud missile was kissing my underwear and I finally had to take an REO Speedwagon. Great time for all. Welcome to the Family Friendly legal Late night podcast. I feel like now what I want to do, my missile is new to me as well. Chad Sands (44:19): I just want to use AI to create my own fake urban dictionary. I feel like AI could have just come up with something like that. You know what I mean? I Jared Correia (44:27): Feel like it easily cut off Chad Sands (44:28): GPT. Give me five funny things that could be Popp culture references. That would mean GPT would come up with the hit song from RO Speedwagon is now referred to as someone who can't make it to the bathroom. Isn't that funny? Would you like me to reword it in better ways for LinkedIn or Instagram? Please do. Yes, please. No, don't say please don't say please. The GPT. It takes up too much water and energy. Jared Correia (44:55): Wait, from my LinkedIn posts coming out this week are going to be fucking fire. Chad Sands (44:59): Are you using a lot of AI on that? Jared Correia (45:01): Might be rolling up some Urban Dictionary stuff. Chad Sands (45:04): Some RES feed wa. You should do a post. If you could do a post referencing all of those terms just in one. Well, Jared Correia (45:12): That's how I'm going to promote this podcast episode. Chad Sands (45:15): See if people can connect the dots and follow the story. Jared Correia (45:21): Chad, thank you. This was delightful. Chad Sands (45:23): Thank you as always. We'll Jared Correia (45:24): Talk soon. Chad Sands (45:25): We will, and I would like to encourage any personal injury attorney out there to take a demo of Cloud Lex to see the power of the Legal Cloud platform, or visit the trial lawyers journal.com and join our community and hear the stories rooted in the intricate world of trial law. How's that? That was really good. I Jared Correia (45:46): Saved it for the Chad Sands (45:47): End. Jared Correia (45:48): Thank you. We'll talk soon. Thanks for our guest. That was Chad Sands of Cloud Lex. To learn more about Cloud Lex, visit cloud lex.com. That's cloud lex LE x.com. Now because I'll always be a nineties kid wearing my Beavers and Butthead frog baseball t-shirt, whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every podcast episodes I record where the signs are tangentially related to an episode topic. This week's playlist is all about the beach in order. My guy Chad Sands get it Sands. See what I did there and best of all is sponsored by Hawaiian Tropic Suntan lotion so I can look just like a base of Turkey. I'm just kidding. By the way, Hawaiian Tropic hasn't sponsored shit, but I wish they would hit me up. Or should I say lube me up, join us next time when I try not to feel ashamed about bed letting last night. What? No.