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The Smarter Divorce Inside the Power of Mediation · The Conscious Divorce

• speaker-1: Welcome to the Conscious Divorce podcast on WGSNDB Going Solo Network, where we explore divorce not as an ending, but as a transformative opportunity to reclaim your life, reboot your identity, and become the person you are always meant to be. I'm Justin Milrad, certified divorce coach, MBA, financial planner, and founder of Reclaim and Reboot Transformational Divorce Coaching, and author of U2.0, Divorce, A Better Way Forward. Before we dive in a quick note, this podcast is designed to share ideas, stories and insights from my years working in the mental health field, helping individuals navigate divorce and from my own personal experiences. I'm not a therapist, attorney, doctor or mediator. So this podcast is meant to compliment not replace professional guidance from these qualified experts. Nothing in this episode constitutes legal, therapeutic or financial advice. Every situation is unique. So always consult a licensed professional for advice specific to your circumstances. If you find today's episode helpful, please share it with someone who needs it. Hit subscribe, follow, and leave us a review. It really does help us reach more people navigating this incredibly challenging time. Here's something I've noticed working with coaching clients over the years. The word mediation gets thrown around constantly, but very few people actually know what it is before they're in it. They picture a courtroom without a judge, or a therapy session gone wrong, or a room where someone is going to split everything down the middle and tell them to accept it. None of that is accurate. And that gap is between what people expect and what mediation actually is. That gap costs people more time, money, and emotional energy. Today's guest is going to close that gap for us. She's been doing this work for over 20 years, and her approach, she describes it best herself, is rooted in empathy, confidentiality, and the belief that people in the room are capable of building their own solutions. My guest today has been helping people find common ground for over two decades. She's a certified mediator based in Albany, New York, a member of the American Bar Association, the New York State Dispute Resolution Association, and the Family and Divorce Mediation Council of Greater New York. She founded Caroline Melconian Mediation with a mission that I think says it all, creating solutions, resolving conflicts. Caroline, welcome to the Conscious Divorce Podcast. speaker-0: ⁓ Justin, thanks for having me. It's great to talk to you again. speaker-1: Great to see you and to talk about this important topic. Yes. So Caroline, let's get started with the foundation because I think it matters more than people realize. In plain terms, what is mediation? Not the textbook definition, but how would you explain it to someone sitting across from you who is scared, overwhelmed, and has no idea what they're about to walk into? speaker-0: Yeah. And that's a great question. ⁓ a ⁓ lot of people confuse mediation with meditation. ⁓ that is, that is how much, ⁓ mediation is unknown, but I describe it as I help you have productive conversations. So what does that mean? A productive conversation is respectful. It's forward thinking. It's aligned with your goals. It's one person at a time. ⁓ it's working towards coming to an agreement. So I really guide conversations to make sure that you get to some solutions that'll work for each of you. speaker-1: Thank you for that. know, so in mediation, not meditation, who is actually making the decisions, you know, because I think that surprises a lot of people. speaker-0: Yes, exactly. You know, when when people are first thinking about getting divorced, what do they always get a good lawyer, get a good lawyer. When you do that, you've got somebody else who's going to be making those decisions for you. But that other person doesn't know you. They don't know you and they don't know what you're going to want in the future. They don't know where you're going to live, how your schedule works with your children. In mediation, we talk about all that. Where do you think you want to live? How much money do we have? What do you want for your children? What do you want that to be like for them? ⁓ So I let you make those decisions together, again, as I guide those conversations. And I do that just by asking questions and ⁓ really listening hard to your interests. And I help you identify what your underlying interests are so that you can make a decision that's aligned with those interests. speaker-1: You know, and I think what's really important for our listeners to know is about 10 % of cases typically go to court. Most cases get resolved in mediation and, you know, mediation gives you a lot more flexibility and a lot more depth and opportunity to come up with creative solutions than going to court. So speaker-0: Absolutely right. You're right. And you know what? And those 10 % that do go to court, the 90%, they'll settle like the week before or the day before. So how long have you spent paying for attorneys, stressing about what might happen before you end up just coming to a solution anyway? speaker-1: Absolutely. know, so question, you've been doing this work for over 20 years, so you're clearly committed to mediation. Everyone has a backstory, so I'm kind of curious what drew you to mediation specific. speaker-0: You know, that's an interesting question. And you're right. Everybody has, everybody, especially in this space, has a backstory. And for most people I hear, my parents had a bad divorce and I was impacted by it, or I went through a really hard divorce and I know this could be better. ⁓ In my situation, I really wanted to find a way to help people kind of hold their hand when they are feeling like all of a sudden, their future is really uncertain. So in my case, it was not because of divorce, but it was my husband passed away. And all of a sudden, my future is uncertain. My finances are different. My support system is gone. These are not that is not the future that I planned. And I had all these skills as a mediator. I was a ⁓ I was in the conflict resolution space as a labor negotiator, and I had a all these skills. And I thought, how can I utilize all these skills and help people with this uncertain future? Like, how can I I know what that feels like? I'm there. I'm moving through it. How can I help people? walk down this path. speaker-1: So you definitely have some lived experience and you've seen good mediation versus bad mediation. Now mediation isn't for everybody. There's other options like arbitration or going to court. I'm kind of curious in your opinion, in your 20 years of experience, who is mediation actually built for? Can you paint us a picture of what that couple or family typically would look like? And then maybe identify the flip side. When is mediation not necessarily the right fit? speaker-0: Yeah, you know, I always say, Justin, that mediation should be your first stop. ⁓ I think most people, they are once they've gotten over, you know, the hurt, the pain, they are they are ready to make decisions. Most people come to a point they're ready to move forward. ⁓ And I think most people who are willing to look towards the future, who are willing to be cooperative who are willing to share information and who really want the very best for their children, who really want to work together so that they have a peaceful living space and they can co-parent together. When the co-parents are working together and they can be respectful to each other, they don't have to love each other, but they have to love their kids. And the kids will feel that when the parents are getting along. And I think most of the people I see are of that mindset. They want this to be a good experience for their child. But, you know, most people, as we work through mediation, even if they came and they're angry or they're upset or they're hurt, we can work through that. And we can come to, we can almost always come to. an agreement. You might find, and I found this before, people who maybe they really don't want, maybe they don't really want to come to an agreement. Maybe they're delaying, they're not showing up, they're not doing their homework and getting documents, or they don't want to share financial information. ⁓ That's where, that's where mediation can really ⁓ can break down. We have to tactics that we can use to work through that. But at the end of the day, we do have to be cooperative and transparent. speaker-1: You know, what about situations where there might be domestic violence or serious power imbalances or situations where one person is genuinely afraid of the other? Is mediation a ⁓ good solution for those cases? speaker-0: You know, we screen for domestic violence and for power imbalances before all of our mediations. ⁓ With a virtual space. It's a lot safer for a lot of people who feel afraid to be in the same room ⁓ or who may be impacted by a power imbalance. I would, absolutely, we screen, we understand, and we make sure that we can actually help this particular couple. ⁓ But yes, using the virtual space is really helpful. And I just want to say about power imbalances. think everybody has there's some power imbalance somewhere, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. ⁓ it doesn't mean that that person who has more money or the person who's more financially savvy is actually not willing to still cooperate. And lots of times the power imbalances, they'll switch during the course of the mediation. Some there's always somebody who makes more money. There's always somebody who understands the finances better. There's always somebody who understands the children better or maybe has a closer relationship with the children. There's always power imbalances and they switch around. ⁓ So where the power imbalances become a ⁓ problem, that's where we step in with our tactics. We slow things down. We ask a lot of questions. We make sure everybody understands what's on the table. We ask for documents. We make sure that one person who's less financially savvy understands what they're looking at. So there's a lot of things that we can do to overcome a power imbalance where it's impacted. speaker-1: Thank you for that. You know, a lot of people assume they need to be agreeable or even friendly to do mediation. Does that hold up in reality or can two people who genuinely dislike each other still have a productive session? speaker-0: We can still have a productive session and it's really on the mediator to hold that space for each person. And there's a lot of different ways that we do that. we keep everybody in their lane. We make sure that everybody gets to talk. If we hear someone who's not talking or they're pissed off, we can try to elicit information from them. We can take a break. There's lots of things that we can do to level the playing field and make sure it's really respectful and as calm as possible. But there's always something that's going to trigger and something that's going to upset somebody. There always is. This is very hard process. This is hard. What you're doing is hard. My job is to get some clarity around it because when there's no clarity, that's where there's stress. People need to understand where they're going, how they're going to get there, and they need to know that they're going to be okay. So that's what I do. I try to hold space for people so that we can have these conversations. You make your decisions and you know where you're going and you don't have that stress. The stress is what also impacts the children. So that's where we want to keep things calm and respectful. And for the most part, we do. And if not, we can caucus, we can take a break. There's things we can do. speaker-1: You know, I hear from most of my clients who go into mediation, ⁓ you know, or have already done mediation, that they don't feel that they've been prepared adequately by their attorneys. And, you know, I'm not knocking attorneys because many do a great job with that. But sometimes, you know, they don't give them enough information. And I find it's the financial aspect that they don't understand. haven't. You yet done their budget to find out what does post divorce look like? What? I know I want the biggest amount of pie I can get, but the law is the law. You know, what number will I feel comfortable with? ⁓ you know, to such a point where I've actually been involved in many mediations just to be there as a thought partner and to, you know, help my clients stabilize emotionally. You know, I also think there's a lot of confusion about where the mediator ends and where an attorney, a therapist, divorce coach or an other advisor begins. Can you give us, ⁓ you know, some clarity on the role of the mediator versus everyone else? speaker-0: Yes, I also want to talk about you. You mentioned the divorce coach. So I spent a lot of time again. I'm an empathetic person. I know what it's like to be afraid of what your future looks like. So I put myself well, I was in that position, but I put myself in that position and said, What is the very, very best way that folks can get divorced? How can we work out a process where people are thoroughly supported all the way through, that they make great decisions for themselves, that they're prepared and they don't feel nervous, they know what to expect. That's really efficient. It's not going to take day after day, session after session. It's efficient and it's the least expensive as possible. And it was really important to me to hit all those markers when I developed the process that I'm now using. I also wanted people to understand about how much they were going to spend. Because when you go to an attorney or you go to a mediator, it's like diving into a pool and you don't know how deep it is until you get there. I wanted people to have an idea. So what I do is I have all my clients work with a divorce coach like yourself. So I thought that this was the most important person in this in this process. The coach, as you know, the coach will help you get prepared. They'll help you look for any triggers that you might have that you might need some tactics to overcome those triggers. ⁓ They'll help you understand what's going to be coming up next in mediation. And let's talk that through. This is how it's going to go. Do you have an idea of what you want in this area? ⁓ Where's your budget? Let's talk about what you can really afford. They'll help ground you. They can give you options. So they help you get prepared. So I work with my divorce coaches. Like, this is what I want you to do with them before they come to me. So before they come to me, they've started gathering their financial documents. They are prepared to talk about parenting. They know what to expect. And then we can go back and forth ⁓ mediation session. Then the client will go back to the divorce coach. Here's what we talked about. What do you think about this? Should I come back with a different option? The divorce coach can work as your advocate, where I cannot. I need to maintain my neutrality as a mediator. So I can help you come up with options, and I do, but I can't offer you suggestions like the divorce coach can. So I thought the divorce coach is just so important to this process. So you're making some really good very good decisions. And honestly, the divorce coach charges less than the mediator. So this makes the mediations much smoother, much more productive, and you don't need as many of them. And in that way, I can tell, I can give you an idea of how much you're going to be spending. I work with an attorney who will draft a settlement agreement and file your divorce papers. We know how much that's going to cost. Based on your circumstances, I can tell you about how many sessions we'll need and about how many sessions you'll need with a divorce coach. And that gives you some real clarity around this whole process. You know you're fully supported, it's gonna be as least stressful as possible, and this is about how much you're gonna be spending. speaker-1: That's super helpful. And I think that is the fear ⁓ that people have going into mediation, just a stream of fear in divorce. How much is it going to cost me? How is it going to impact me? What's my future going to look like? Et cetera. So in going into mediation, what would you describe a well-prepared opening proposal would look like? And also, what are some of the common mistakes? that people make when they come in with a number or demand. speaker-0: So I always say this isn't Facebook marketplace. We're not coming in with a proposal. I'm not going to offer you $100 for the item that you're selling for $1,000. We're coming in and understanding each other. Who are your children? What do they like to do? What do you imagine yourself living? How much do you need to live in that way? What do you want the schedule to look like that will work for your children? These are the conversations we're having. We're not like here, I'm gonna put a demand on the table. That's not how we operate. So it's all very learning about the other person, learning about what their futures could look like. And those are those interests that we focus on. We don't focus on a dollar amount or a particular schedule. It's like, do you need? What would make you... feel whole again and feel like you have the confidence to live and make a nice home for your child in the future. So people don't come in with demands. know, towards the end, when we all understand our interests and somebody says, this is how much I think I need, we'll talk about that. We'll talk about that. But we don't come in like a negotiation, like I'm coming with my demand. Was there another part to that question? speaker-1: Now I think we're supposed to go to commercial. speaker-0: you speaker-1: All right, we're back. So I remember when I went to my mediation, I spent a lot of time getting myself emotionally ready. And I'm not sure everyone does that. I remember driving to the mediation, listening to ⁓ the song by Journey, Don't Stop Believing. ⁓ So one of the questions I have for you is, from a purely emotional standpoint, what does someone need to do in the days and hours before a session to actually show up ready to work? rather than ready to fight. speaker-0: Yeah, you know, that's a really great question. ⁓ Part of the plan that I have with working with a divorce coach is that you are emotionally ready. So if the coach feels that someone is not emotionally ready, they'll let me know and I won't start the mediation yet because we're not going to waste time or waste your emotional energy. ⁓ But I would say come in thinking about where you might want to land, what your future looks like, because we need to be future focused. ⁓ The other stuff, yep, that happened. It was probably crappy. But there's a future out there for you. And what does that look like? And that's what I would like people to be thinking about is, where do I want to land? speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's great advice ⁓ You know from my own experience from from experience with many clients There's so much focus on division of assets and there's not nearly as much focus on Where do I want to land and what happens next? In fact, that's one of the reasons why I became a divorce coach because I think that was so important to me ⁓ So one of the questions I have is, know kids So often, you know, we go through division of assets and then kids, we rush through it, you know? So for clients with kids, how do you help them stay future focused on what their co-parenting relationship needs to look like, you know, two years, three years, five years from now, rather than re-litigating what happened five years ago? And I think when I say, you know, what the relationship looks like, I think there's also the financial component because you want to make sure that know, the settlement is equitable and fair enough so that the kids are taken care of with both, you know, members of the family. speaker-0: Absolutely, absolutely. It's interesting that you ⁓ pose the question in that way because I do parenting first before we start talking about division of assets. ⁓ I settle in on what do your children need and ⁓ that helps inform a lot of the division of assets because we already know where you want your children to land. ⁓ But I also, especially for young children, I work with a co-parenting specialist because As you indicated, you've got somebody who's three, a child who's three, their needs when they're eight are so different. Their needs when they're 16 are so different. So I want to have a co-parenting specialist that the family can work with to one, keep things positive and respectful as they continue through their co-parenting journey. but also someone who is able to help them as new stages arrive. ⁓ So what I'll do is we'll talk about the here and now, and then we start thinking about like the next stage. It's hard to go too many stages ahead, ⁓ but we do try to plan as much as we can. We'll definitely talk about plans for college and saving for college, paying for college. ⁓ But that's a hard... thing for people to think about, like, is my child going to be like when they're 18? What are their needs going to be when my child is only three? ⁓ So getting them hooked up and developing a relationship with a co-parenting specialist can help them to make changes to their co-parenting agreements as the child's developmental needs change. speaker-1: That's so important. I like the order ⁓ in which you practice. I think that's super important. But I also think it's really important when it comes to the parenting plan to really think about things that happen in the future. Because we think of the most obvious things, but we don't necessarily think about overnight camp or driving lessons or buying a car. Often, colleges and even disgust, depending on where you live, there are different rules around college, ⁓ weddings, grandkids. You can't solve for everything, but you can solve for many things. ⁓ And also in the cases where people get really upset because of a betrayal or something, they don't wanna necessarily give something over to the other parent, but there's always creative ways the kids will benefit or grandkids by setting up trusts and. other vehicles to help in the future. speaker-0: Right, so I'll raise all these. My goal is to be as specific and all encompassing as possible. And I think where some of these mediations maybe fall a little short is sometimes the specifics are not covered. So you might agree, okay, we can each take the child for two weeks over the summer. But then in practice, what does that really mean? Are they two consecutive weeks? Is that okay? Is that what you agreed to? Are they two single weeks? ⁓ When are you going to ask for it? What if we both want the same weeks? So there's a lot of specifics. try to get into how would this play out so that I don't want you to come to an agreement and then next year find that, my gosh, I don't really understand how this is working and now we're in a stressful situation. speaker-1: Yeah, you know, and that's a perfect reason why you want to have these discussions and think about these things ahead of time before you get into mediation, you know, to whether you're working with a coach or an attorney to create different scenarios and discuss things that, you know, could work versus things that absolutely won't work or the deal breakers. Right. Caroline, can you take us through what the first session actually looks like with you? you know, from the moment someone either walks in or logs on, you know, what's the structure? What are you trying to accomplish? You know, by the end of the first session. speaker-0: So at our first session, I've already met with a couple twice. So we had a consultation. I've explained my process. Once they've signed on with me, I have another welcome meeting just to review the process again, talk to them about the importance of the divorce coach. So when they come to our first session, they have ideas and they have an idea of what they think they want for a parenting plan. They may have already talked about it because they've both been talking to a coach to prepare. So oftentimes they come in like, OK, this is the this is the schedule that we think is going to work for us. They've already come to an agreement. We just got there. So they're very prepared. They have an idea of they've been thinking about where they want to live. So we'll start talking about that. We'll start talking about, you do you have a time frame for this? Let's get some. Do you want to? Are you still living in the same house? And should we talk about when that could happen? And tell me about your child. I want to I want to learn about them. I want to understand where they are developmentally so I can think about those things that might be coming up for them that we can raise. So generally, by the end of our first session, we've worked out a lot of parenting issues, how they're going to communicate vacation schedules, who's how they're going to split up holidays. birthdays, things like that. So we've actually made a lot of progress in that first meeting. speaker-1: That's wonderful. You you start right, you stay right. speaker-0: Right. It also gives them some additional time to gather. First of all, don't want talk about those, dog with the money yet. But it gives them, people need time to get all those documents together. It's a huge pain for a lot of people and people are busy. So if this gives them a little more time, I can check in and see where they are with gathering these documents. And then I give them as much time as they need. And then we won't meet again until we've got all those numbers. We don't want to waste time or money. speaker-1: Sure. Can you explain the difference between joint sessions and caucus sessions? You know, and how do you decide which one to use? And when does separating people in their own space actually help rather than slow things down? speaker-0: Yes. Well, ⁓ sometimes you do need to slow things down, if emotions are high. So a joint session is where we're all together. So one person is talking at a time. I'm listening. I'm asking questions. ⁓ that's a joint session. And my divorce work is mostly done in joint session. It's really helpful to hear the other person's perspective. and their reactions because that's where you get information about how you can kind of change your proposals a little bit to find common ground. So it's really good to hear from people. A caucus is when I'm meeting with one person at a time. Generally when I do that, I'll meet with one person and then I meet with the other person for about the same amount of time. Because I don't want to, I need to maintain my neutrality. But I do a caucus when I feel it's necessary. If somebody's really stuck, if they're very emotional, if there's something I don't understand and I don't necessarily want to bring it up in front of the other person. ⁓ So there's lots of reasons why we might go into a caucus. With the addition of the divorce coach, I don't really need to go into caucus. What I can do is let the divorce coach know we are a little stuck on this particular topic and the divorce coach will work with that client to find out what's going on so that I don't have to, because you know, wanna, I still wanna be neutral. It's hard to appear neutral when I am meeting with each one is probably wondering, what are you talking to the other person about? Are you on their side? I don't ever want that to come up. So the divorce coach really is your advocate ⁓ who's mediation friendly and understands you're trying to get to a deal. ⁓ So that's the purpose of the caucus is to keep things moving. speaker-1: You know, so I'm sure this happens sometimes and you've been trained in how to deal with it, but how do you handle a high conflict dynamic? You know, when people come in hot, you want to create a battle or keep pulling the conversation back into blame and grievance. speaker-0: Yeah, you know, it's interesting because when people come in hot or they keep repeating the same issue over and over the same concern, it's because they don't feel like they've been heard. So what we have to do as mediators is make sure that person feels heard. I hear you. It sounds like you're saying this. I see that you're upset. Can you tell me about that? And then we move that into the past and we flip the conversation to the future. So it's important to talk about what might be going on with people. If they don't feel heard, they will ruminate and they'll keep saying it over and over. So make sure they're heard, acknowledge their emotion. It's important. This is a hard process. They're feeling something that's really important. And I need to know what it is that also gives me a clue as to what might. ⁓ what they might be looking for. speaker-1: That's great advice. I'd also say I think it's a real opportunity to do the pre-work with your divorce coach or your therapist and identify certain things that will set you off for triggers and figure out how do I work through that because they are going to come up. It is very emotional. You take the life that you've lived and over X number of years and in a matter of so many hours and so many sessions, you're dividing it all up. And that's a lot for anybody. speaker-0: ⁓ it's an awful lot. Again, the uncertainty, this is shocking. It's not what you anticipated on that wedding day. Now you've got children, you're worried about them, you're worried about your finances. There's so much to worry about. You need to have some clarity around it so that you can put the stress behind you. Yeah, it's very hard. speaker-1: No doubt. So let's talk about when mediation does work beautifully. What does that moment actually look like? ⁓ What's the agreement, who drafts it, and what happens next to make it legally binding? speaker-0: ⁓ so what happens is when we come to agreements, we I'll write that all up in, a memorandum of understanding, and then we review it. Oftentimes you agree to something when you see it on paper, you might translate it differently. So we put it on paper. We talk about it, make sure we all understand what it means. We don't want any anything unclear down the road want to be very clear. So we capture everything. If we're all good, that goes off to the attorney who will write a settlement agreement and file those divorce papers for you. Now, some people will hold off on filing the divorce papers. That's fine. There's various reasons to do that. And we can also talk about, okay, you don't want to get divorced for two years. What will the next two years look like? So sometimes we have a plan one and then the plan two for when they finally do get divorced. the filing of the divorce papers will finalize the process. And I'll tell you when that happens, I almost feel like the wind has gotten taken out of me because I've been working with these folks for a long time. I know they're children. I've been worried about them because I want to make sure this is really a plan that's going to work for them. So sometimes I feel like, oh, you're gone. You're gone. Are you OK? I haven't seen them in a couple weeks. Are they okay? Are they moving forward? Are they happy? So it can feel like a let down for me, but it feels good. It feels good. speaker-1: Yeah, you know, and listen, know, divorce isn't the worst thing. Sometimes it's the best thing that can happen to someone. And, you know, we all have an opportunity to create our version of you 2.0 of ourselves. You know, so circumstances change over time. Life changes. You know, if someone reached a mediated agreement and then everything shifts for some reason, maybe it's a health issue, maybe it's a job, you know, loss. Is it possible to come back to mediation for modifications? And if so, how does that typically work? speaker-0: Yeah, well, like I said before, I try to plan for everything. And we do plan for these changes because we don't know what the future is going to bring. So we'll always include something like when can we modify this agreement on some sort of a regular basis? when is it every three years? Is it when your income changes by a certain amount? What is the trigger for us to sit down and review this document? So that will be built in. Also, if you come to an agreement on what your parenting schedule is going to look like, and then in practice you think it needs to be changed a little bit, and you both agree, then that's what you do. And you use the document that we came up with as your fallback for when you don't agree. So the document will stand unless you agree on something else. And then again, we'll put in some sort of trigger so that we can all take a look at modification at a certain point in time. speaker-1: You know, I think what you're talking about is so important in the sense of, you know, a critical outcome of mediation and just divorce in general is having a very strong co-parenting relationship. And that doesn't mean you, you know, you've forgiven the other person or that you have to be friends, but there's lots of data out there that says if you have an effective co-parenting relationship, you know, the damage or lack of damage to your kids is as if you still married in a healthy relationship. So that's super important for everyone to think about. speaker-0: I to make it as clear as possible, get into these situations where, oh my gosh, now we've got to fight over something else. We need this to be smooth. speaker-1: Yep. So every once in a while, I'm sure, you're at an impasse. ⁓ Tempers have flared, and people are just holding on to their positions. How do you know when you've genuinely hit that wall versus a temporary breakdown? And what do you do at that point? speaker-0: Well, you know, there's lots of things we can do. ⁓ The only time I've ever felt like we can't go forward is when somebody does not want to share important information. I need to make sure both my clients have all the information they need to make a good decision for themselves. And if somebody is hiding information, then we're not going to be able to move forward. So if you own five investment properties and you're not going to explain where the money is for that, We really can't move forward. ⁓ Otherwise, there's lots of things that we can do to move people forward. We can take a break and slow things down because what has happened is your emotions have taken over your rational brain. So what we need to do is settle down. And that could be we come back next time or it could be we just take a 15 minute break. There's lots of things we can do. ⁓ But we need to get back to your rational brain and then then I'll go back to those interests. I know what your interests are. And I also know that you are the best person to make those decisions for yourself. So if you don't come to agreement today, then what? What does that look like? Are you going to court? Is that what you want? And once people are thinking rationally, they will realize, no, they don't want to go to court. They want to come to an agreement and they want an agreement that they actually have determined. So we can just, have these conversations. I have to call it out. Name it to tame it. Like this is what I see. What's happening? What's everybody feeling? And do you have a better outcome here? speaker-1: Sure, it's great. All right, so I'm gonna talk about some of the unknowns. So new partners, grandparents, blended families, these realities often don't exist yet when the agreement is drafted, but they often show up eventually. How do you build in flexibility into agreements without creating so much ambiguity that it becomes. speaker-0: Well, like I said, I try to avoid ⁓ anything ambiguous. And I really do try to plan for everything. I actually spend a lot of time talking about new partners. ⁓ What do you want that to look like? How long can one of you be with a new partner before you introduce the children? ⁓ Can the new partner be spending the night when the children are there? We talk about that. ⁓ Grandparents, I'll... What ⁓ kind of relationships do the children have with their family members that we want to make sure are maintained? So we'll talk about all that. I think that I've tried to cover everything, but I absolutely talk about what could that look like in the future so that each of you agree that, OK, it is important to us that my daughter maintain her relationship with both sets of grandparents. And that's a commitment that you can make. And if we want, we can get more specific about that. Usually in that kind of case, we just make a commitment that we're gonna, the child wants to maintain those relationships. ⁓ And that's where we go with that. But we try to talk about everything. speaker-1: Well, we've covered so much and I do have some ⁓ questions submitted by our audience. Are we good to go through those? speaker-0: ⁓ fantastic. Absolutely. speaker-1: All right, the first question. I am scared my spouse will agree in the room, but back out afterwards, what recourse do I have? speaker-0: Yeah, you know, we want to make sure that this is an agreement that everybody has bought into. And lots of times I I see, I can tell when people are just agreeing to get the hell out of there. I can tell by their body language. I can tell by how quickly they, ⁓ they will agree to something. And I think, that doesn't make sense. I could tell right away. So we'll talk, we'll talk about that. And I won't let people oftentimes come to a final agreement. I'll have them, okay, I hear what everybody's saying. Please go back and we're gonna talk about it next time. ⁓ It does become, because you don't want people making decisions and coming to an agreement and then doing something totally different. So we make sure that your agreements are solid. speaker-1: Great. Second question, can we do mediation if we have not yet filed for divorce? speaker-0: ⁓ absolutely. Most of my clients haven't filed for divorce yet. I think it's easier that way, honestly. You can do it either way. But if you haven't filed for divorce, you're probably more likely to be in a cooperative space. If you filed for divorce already, oftentimes someone has to be served. There's that initial stress of the uncertainty. Going to court and getting an attorney, getting served with papers, That's frightening and that puts you on guard. So you might be in a different space than someone who's like, okay, we're thinking about getting divorced in eight months. We're gonna take our time and really think this through. So you're probably in a different space, but you could absolutely, and I recommend it. speaker-1: Terrific. All right, the third question. ⁓ My spouse is more financially savvy and a stronger negotiator than I am. How do I protect myself in such situations where I feel I'm at a disadvantage? speaker-0: ⁓ that's a great question. Like I said before, there's always somebody who's more financially savvy, right? But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. It doesn't mean that that person's not gonna be cooperative. ⁓ So what my job is is to level that playing field. If I do feel like somebody has so much more information that the other person is not getting the information, I will make sure that that person gets the information. So we slow things down, we explain. In more detail, I'll ask questions so I get more information, which means the other person is getting more information. We have, we pull documents. Everything has ⁓ a document. We give them time. We give everybody time to look at these. And of course you go back with your coach and go through them. And then I'll put numbers all on a chart. I'll make sure it's easy to understand so that everybody has the same understanding. speaker-1: Okay, that's wonderful. ⁓ For the person listening right now who's terrified of mediation, who thinks it's going to be the worst experience of their life, what is one thing you want them to hold onto before they walk in? speaker-0: Get a divorce coach. speaker-1: I like that. speaker-0: It's and it's absolutely true. Get a divorce coach. The coach will make sure you're ready. They I've acted as a coach to other people before just to under so they'll understand what they're getting into. That clarity will will take away a lot of that fear. Just understanding the process, understanding that the goal is to get what you need. ⁓ that clarity is great. Yep. get a divorce coach. speaker-1: Love that. All right, so here's my last question. If someone is listening today and wants to connect with you and explore whether mediation is the right path for their situation, what should they do and what can they expect from the first conversation with you? And then how can they get ahold of you? speaker-0: You can ahold of me through my website ⁓ or through LinkedIn, which I see them listed on the bottom here, cmailmediation.com. And I offer free consultations. I want to hear where you are in this process so I can give you some guidance and let you know what this could look like and how I work, how my process works, and how it'll help to support you in this journey. speaker-1: That is so wonderful. And I want to tell our viewers, I went through an eight day jury trial. I wish mediation worked in our case, but I don't think that we were really set up for success. I didn't have a divorce coach. We weren't fully prepared for mediation. So we were kind of set up to not be successful. So for what it's worth, be part of that 90 % that can resolve things in mediation. You will save time, you will save money, you will be more thorough, you have more flexibility, and it will happen faster and you can get on to the next version of your life so much quicker. speaker-0: Yep, absolutely. speaker-1: So Caroline, I wanna thank you so much for being on the show today. I mean that sincerely. This is such an important topic. The clarity and care you bring to this work comes through in every single answer. And I know our listeners are gonna walk away from this conversation, seeing mediation completely different than when we started. And that's exactly why we do this podcast. If you wanna connect with Caroline and explore whether mediation could be the right path for your situation, go to C-M-E-L. ⁓ mediation.com. She offers a free confidential consultation. There is no risk in having the first conversation and based on everything you heard today, you know, it'll be a great one. I also want to tie this back to something Carolyn and I touched on during our conversation, the role of a divorce coach in this process. Mediation is a powerful tool, but walking into that room prepared, emotionally grounded and clear on your priorities is not just something that happens. That's work. And that's exactly why I help people do what I do. In my coaching practice, I work with people who are navigating divorce and want to do it intentionally rather than reactively. People who want to stay in the driver's seat, protect what matters most to them and come out on the other side with the life they actually designed. That is the U 2.0 philosophy. Reclaim your power, reboot your life, become the best version of yourself. If that resonates with you and you're wondering whether divorce coaching might be the piece missing in your process, I would genuinely love to talk to you. Head over to www.reclaimandreboot.me and set up a free 30 minute no obligation consultation. We'll figure out together whether it makes sense from where you are right now. And if you want to go deeper on your own, I have two books that can meet you wherever you are on this journey. U2.0 Divorce a Better Way Forward, which is the roadmap and U2.0 Workbook, which is a companion guide for doing the real inner work of this transition. Both are available on amazon.com. And one last ask, if today's episode meant something to you, share it. You probably know someone right now who needs to hear this. Subscribe to the conscious divorce podcast, leave a review if you have a minute and reach out if you have a topic you want us to tackle next. You can find me at Justin at reclaim and reboot.me. read every message and just remember this is not the end of your story. This is the part where you take the pen back. I'm Justin Norad. and I will see you on the next episode of the Conscious Divorce Podcast on WGSNDB Going Solo Network. Thank you everyone. Have a great day and thank you Carolyn. speaker-0: Thank you, Justin.