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364- Listening Before Leading w/April Marquez · You've Been Heard

• 0:09
  Speaker A: Welcome back to today's episode of Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. I'm your host, Doug Kameen, and today I'm talking with April Marquez, ERP Implementation Specialist at FNS Fresh Produce. Welcome to the show, April.
• 0:21
  Speaker B: Thank you for having me, Doug.
• 0:23
  Speaker A: So, April, it's great to talk to you. We were just talking. It was sharing a little bit of. We both worked mostly remotely in our current role, so. So you share. The FNS Fresh produces is based in New Jersey, but you do not. You. You. You don't live in New Jersey, right? So you live.
• 0:43
  Speaker B: No, I live in Texas. I live. I live in South Texas. Yes, South Texas.
• 0:47
  Speaker A: So do you live in. Are you in San Antonio? So.
• 0:51
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 0:52
  Speaker A: Yeah. So. So I grew up in Austin.
• 0:55
  Speaker B: Oh, wow. Not too far away. Just a stone's throw, actually, just up.
• 0:59
  Speaker A: The road a little bit when I was 10. So I spent basically the 1980s and the part of the early 1990s.
• 1:06
  Speaker B: Okay. You could have possibly been in, what, Dazed and Confused or one of those other movies.
• 1:11
  Speaker A: That's right. That's right. Yeah. They filled it. I think they filled it right as the last couple of times I was there. So I think I jokingly discussed, like, I was at Austin. It was. I lived in Austin or I grew up in Austin during the period that people venerate as the reason why they wanted to move to Austin. You know, like. Like, you know, now Austin's like, three times that size. You know, it was like a city of like, a million people or so back in the 80s, and now it's like. Like five or. And it's a huge city.
• 1:44
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's gotten a little crazy.
• 1:46
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's a little wild.
• 1:47
  Speaker B: Still not as many people in San Antonio, but that's true.
• 1:50
  Speaker A: That's true. San Antonio is still a bigger city. And it's funny how different. I say funny, but, like, funny baby isn't the right word. It's really interesting how different the culture just between San Antonio and Austin really is like. San Antonio is so. Like, they're so differently influenced in cities.
• 2:11
  Speaker B: Oh, for sure. For sure. I think you get a lot of. Well, you know, the. The motto is keep Austin weird. So I think there's a big, big push and. And inclusive for inclusiveness and welcoming for someone who's maybe a little quirky. And San Antonio's influences are from, you know, a little further south of the border, even, and you. You get a completely different culture and experience. Yeah.
• 2:36
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's such a different vibe and. And, yeah. So I remember when I was A kid. Like one of our spring break trips was, besides going to, like, South Potter island, was. Was to go down to San Antonio and go hang out on the Riverwalk.
• 2:48
  Speaker B: Nice. Yeah. Just relax and chill. Right?
• 2:52
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So. So for those of you find interesting.
• 2:56
  Speaker B: I'm sorry, I was just going to say the. The. Have you ever seen the movie? Oh, Matthew McConaughey has a small part in it, Lone Star, and talk about. Okay, well, if you ever get a chance, you should. It's a great movie and it's filmed, I want to say, out in the Uvalde area, which is south of San Antonio even. And they talk about, you know, the Alamo, and it's. It's a great, great line. And no one really goes to see the Alamo. Right. Everybody goes to see the Riverwalk in time.
• 3:27
  Speaker A: I've seen the Alamo. I've been in. You know, unlike Pee Wee Herman, I knew that there was no basement.
• 3:34
  Speaker B: There you go. Awesome. Don't destroy my hopes.
• 3:39
  Speaker A: That's right. He did at least find the bike.
• 3:44
  Speaker B: Yeah, very true. Very true.
• 3:46
  Speaker A: So, anyways, we talk a little bit about how, I guess. Well, I'm going to divert ourselves back. We're supposed to be on a leadership podcast here. Perhaps we'll just talk about some of the.
• 3:58
  Speaker B: Okay, so.
• 3:59
  Speaker A: So, April, you've spent time. Currently you're working in. This is your kind of second gig in the. In the. I call it the fresh food space. It's all. It's over for it because you spent a number of years as an IT manager for another. Another produce place. So, you know, I just. One of the things we were curious about here on the podcast is, is how did you shift from becoming, you know, becoming your. Your. Your schooling and your childhood. What made you want to get into it? And then how did you transition into leadership?
• 4:34
  Speaker B: So getting into it, I guess, was really easy. I just. I had an aptitude for computers starting out. You know, I'm going to date myself here on a. On an Apple Iie that they installed at the local library and then the computer lab in school. School. So that was the easy part.
• 4:53
  Speaker A: You died of dysentery a lot.
• 4:55
  Speaker B: I did. Exactly. Oregon Trails. Yeah, dysentery. I knew what you meant. I knew. But yeah, dysentery, but yes, exactly. And so that was fascinating for me. And so I guess I just. It grew from there. And then I actually wanted to be a neurosurgeon when I was first introduced into to computer worlds. And that's. Those were the games that I played Right. The surgeon, the, you know, but moving, moving forward, I got a little, I guess, enlightened about the medical field and decided that wasn't for me and, and found myself into computer science initially and then took a break from school for a very long time, but continued taking jobs and pick. Learning on the job about systems and, you know, of all sorts and actually didn't even complete my, my degree. My degree's in cybersecurity. Didn't complete that until about two years ago. Wow. So. Yeah. But in the meantime, had a job as an IT manager working for a large distribute wholesale distributor of produce in San Antonio. Learned a lot working with them. They were amazing and very supportive of my career and supportive of my education and continued education. Education. So that's, that's. They were very helpful in me transitioning into, into technology, into it.
• 6:24
  Speaker A: And, and so you spent a long time with them and I think that's something I'd love to explore. I'd love to explore that a little bit for the benefit of our, the listeners here. So when you start in a career and you know, you move up in a company and you've got a great, you know, I call it a great gig, you share that. They were very supportive and it was a great place to work. And in the end you still felt that there was a time when you needed to transition your career to a new role and you had to move on. And how, how did you approach that? And like, personally, not, not like with your employer, how do you approach it, but like, how did, how did you figure out, like, okay, I've grown to the point that I think I've, you know, now exceeded my, my next, you know, my next role is going to be somewhere else. You know, like, what were the signals that you felt that with that. What, what, how did you go through that? And what, what, what made you decide, like, okay, this is the, the time to make that switch.
• 7:18
  Speaker B: I wasn't waking up and excited to go to work anymore.
• 7:22
  Speaker A: Wow.
• 7:23
  Speaker B: And that was new for me because I was always excited to go to work and, you know, I had a lot of, of latitude and I, I was the first IT manager in the company. I created the, you know, created the policies, the procedures of, and, you know, for whatever person takes up after me. But yeah, I just, I just wasn't. That's, that's really what it was. I just would wake up and go, oh.
• 7:57
  Speaker A: That'S cool.
• 7:59
  Speaker B: Yeah. No, no, I just. So that was, that was the indication for me that it, maybe it's time so There was some, you know, and then just someone actually reached out to me with an opportunity and it was no longer as an IT manager though. And so that was a big decision for me because, you know, I, I spent a lot of time in leadership and decided at, at after some long consideration that I really, it was an opportunity for me to have some, a different type of experience. Experience working with a team. I had a very, I was, it was at My previous employer was an IT department of one. I touched f. I touched everything. I led everything, you know, so it was, it's been a, it's been a new experience for me to step back and go, oh wait, that's not, that's not my job to do. That's. Someone else can actually step in and manage the Cisco switches or you know, the VoIP system, the VoIP phone systems or something like that. So.
• 9:14
  Speaker A: So, and so like when, when you're, when you're moving up and this is one of those, those big challenges that you have in, in particularly the small end of the mid market space here is. And know you shared you're an IT department of one. So there's a growth opportunity that you can see in the future where you say, you know what, like where. Where do I, where do I transition to the new experiences that gain, you know, expand my horizons to be able to move on to the next thing. So like, like in your case, it sounds to me like you're really looking towards. And maybe I'll frame this as a question it. Do you, do you see yourself getting back into a, you know, a more management role in. But now that you've kind of, you, you've moved laterally almost not necessarily into more management, but then you're started a new path of moving on.
• 10:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's exactly what I'm, I'm hoping to do actually. So, you know, my, my goal is to be the CTO CIO somewhere and I'm not, you know, perhaps it's FNS or you know, but yeah, that's, that's definitely my goal. I hope that it is. I like the.
• 10:21
  Speaker A: It's my ambition. I like it. This is.
• 10:27
  Speaker C: Ladies and gentlemen, IT leaders. Before we move ahead. This podcast is not just a stream, it's a stage. And if you are an IT leader with something to say, we want to hear it. Join us live. Interact with the host and guest and if you've got the insight and courage to step up, we promote you to the mic. Apply now@popularitnerds.com waitlist if you have what it takes Join a growing network of over 160 senior IT leaders where real voices shape real conversations.
• 10:58
  Speaker A: So being many years as the IT manager at a place where you were the only person, what was the biggest, what was your biggest like challenge or impediment that you saw?
• 11:18
  Speaker B: A lack of resources. Although I will say the company tried to be very supportive, but just, and the reality of the situation. Right. And, and I think getting the owners to buy in. So it was a small, I wouldn't say it's a small company, but it's a family owned company and there were a lot of, of opinions that I had to navigate and you know, that, that was probably my, the most, I guess maybe the most difficult thing. But you know, you, you get to where you know personalities and you know how to, how to handle, or I shouldn't say handle, but how to deal with your, your co workers or ownership or leadership. But you know, the, the top execs, the, the C suite execs that are above you.
• 12:05
  Speaker A: Yeah, I, I refer to that as managing up. So like I manage people, but I also. You have to manage up too, you know, like, oh, I manage the people that are above me.
• 12:15
  Speaker B: There you go. Thank you.
• 12:16
  Speaker A: And in it, I think that happens a lot because there's a, the IT leader is frequently the translators at some point in the middle here where you're like, all right, things to happen, you know, whatever the thing is, we need phone system, we need this thing, we need, you know, the service. I don't know anything about this. If you do so, so please make this happen. How do you manage up to manage their expectations, manage what they think is appropriate, entertain what's actually possible here, whatever the case may be, particularly, I think.
• 12:49
  Speaker B: It'S one of my strong suits that translation I think is one of my stronger suits is being able to manage up and say, okay, here is what this piece of hardware will do and here's how it's going to benefit us. And, and so I'm a hand stalker. I know you can't see what I'm.
• 13:03
  Speaker A: Doing, but yeah, yeah, the listeners can't see the hand stuck. Everybody can see the hand stuck. So I know what you're saying. Maybe we could just make commentary. We'd be like, hand wave, hand wave when that happens.
• 13:20
  Speaker B: Yes, exactly.
• 13:22
  Speaker A: So I'm going to touch on something you mentioned A couple of minutes ago you had mentioned that you had been interested in computer and some of your first stuff was, you know, playing with an Apple Iie. And so for you, your first experience was. Your first experience with the computer was with public computer access? It sounds like.
• 13:43
  Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, we had to sign up, wait our turn, hope the person didn't show up if we wanted them, if we wanted to stay on the computer. Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:54
  Speaker A: So, so and so like what types of things? I mean obviously there were games and stuff like that, but like what, what. What parts of that computer are using that and doing that? Like, what's were the pieces that you really felt like were foundational for you that taught you stuff, you know, aside from being like, oh, this is cool because it's technology.
• 14:14
  Speaker B: Oh, oh, gosh. Well, yeah, games were very attractive, but yeah, no, the whole idea of how it was put together was very attractive to me. It was maybe a few more years before I put my own system together. Just, you know, they were. Well, it was a few more years because they were less expensive. A few more years later. A few years later. But yeah, so it was just. How does this work? How is this circuitry. What. How is it talking? Just trying to understand really was. Was what motivated me trying to understand how it's. How did this floppy thing that you stick in the computer tell the computer what to do? You know, it doesn't malleable. It doesn't seem like you could do much with it bends very easily. Easily damaged. You know, I think about important.
• 15:08
  Speaker A: I think about one of the. A lot of times for folks that like had like when I had a computer at home when I was in my teenage years, it was not uncommon for me to dismantle the thing. I think that's a pretty common story for folks that are into tech. But of course you could do that with the library's computer. They would probably not invite you back. It was frowned upon to dismantle computer at the library. I guess we'll say, right, absolutely. But to understand those technologies and how they came apart. So later on you mentioned you got the opportunity to or buying your own technology and get. Get into that stuff like that. What was your first. What was your first experience there in that space?
• 15:52
  Speaker B: Well, it was a Gateway PC. Oh yeah. And yep, you got it.
• 15:59
  Speaker A: And was it still a Gateway 2000 when you bought it?
• 16:04
  Speaker B: You know, I honestly don't remember. It may it's for perhaps I don't.
• 16:08
  Speaker A: Know if it was prior to 2000 they were known as Gateway 2000. Right, right. They. They transition. Gateway.
• 16:16
  Speaker B: Oh, is that okay then? Yes, you're absolutely right. It was a Gateway 2000.
• 16:19
  Speaker A: It was then they transitioned to be business late 80s.
• 16:23
  Speaker B: Yeah, they were talking to late 80s, early 90s. So, yes. Yeah, it was a 2000. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, just learning about memory and, you know, those, those are all, Those were all just amazing. My mother would not. Was not happy with me when I would take something apart and put it back together and hope that it worked and. But because it was a big expense for the family at that time. Right. To have a PC in the home. So. Yeah.
• 16:51
  Speaker A: You ever put it back together? Did that work?
• 16:54
  Speaker B: No, no, I was pretty. I was pretty lucky that way, actually. Did you have. You had an experience like that? Did you have.
• 17:02
  Speaker A: I don't think I ever put. Pulled mine apart and did. And get it working again, but I think I had some close calls where I was like, oh, my God, what's wrong? And I had to like, you know, pull things apart again and then be like, oh, oh, the memory wasn't seated right. Or something like that. You know, processor wasn't. The Pentium processor wasn't put in the Zif socket correctly.
• 17:20
  Speaker B: That's right. That's right. Yeah. Learning about keeping it cool and all that other good stuff as well.
• 17:29
  Speaker A: Yeah. So, you know, you mentioned that you. You started in school. Did you. Did you go to school originally? Just like, straight up, you're like, I'm in computer science in school. Is that how you started or did you start?
• 17:40
  Speaker B: No, I started. I started.
• 17:41
  Speaker A: That's right. You told me. I'm sorry. Sorry. So you started in English?
• 17:45
  Speaker B: Started in English, moved to computer science. Yeah, yeah. And then stopped school for a very long time. Didn't go for about 10 years.
• 17:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. And what motivated you to get back into that?
• 17:59
  Speaker B: So I have a very strong, very strong support system, a group of. Within that support system, they're teachers, some of them former teachers of mine from, you know, third grade when I was playing on an apple IIe. And they remain my friends and just they have instilled in me this desire for. To, you know, pursue a higher education. And so even. Even being in tech, halfway through finishing my program, my most recent program, which is a CyberSecurity Program at UTSA, the University of Texas at San Antonio, halfway through I went, I don't even need this. Right. I can go and get tons of certificates. I can go and do, you know, continued education. But I really want this. This is something I'm going to complete for myself so that I. So that I have fulfilled a desire that I want, that I've had since I was young. So, yeah, I would have to blame it on teachers. Yeah.
• 19:07
  Speaker A: So tell me a Little more about your work with the National Youth Cyber Defense Competition.
• 19:16
  Speaker B: So I volunteered as a mentor for a school and unfortunately it was really amazing because I say unfortunately because I wasn't able to complete the school year with them, but it was really amazing because it gives, the kids are learning so much. Now you're talking about sophomore juniors, seniors who are able to wade through cyber attacks. Black hat, white hat, blue team, red team, you name it. They're, they're, they're managing through all, they're working through all of this and they're learning. Co. I mean I just, it's so amazing because I really wish this was available for me when I was their age. You know, it's something that I've, you have, we've had to like, I've had to seek out, but they, they're, they, those who are interested, they have this available to them and it's, it's a really amazing program.
• 20:13
  Speaker A: All right. It's high schoolers. Is this high schoolers?
• 20:16
  Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, high schoolers. So my experience was as a mentor, so it was a first time experience for me. So it was just like a sit back and, and watch and support where I could at least administratively. But it was, it was really, really fun. So, so, and I highly, yeah, I'd love to support it again. Yeah.
• 20:38
  Speaker A: How did you come to get involved in like this type of this stuff?
• 20:41
  Speaker B: So the local Issa Alamo ESA chapter in San Antonio, they have events and different types of organizations posted on their websites. And so I, I went to their website and I found this opportunity through, through their website and through the Cyber Patriot website as well. So you can sign up as a volunteer and then if a school needs the volunteers, they can, they, they get your name off a list of someone who's available in their area and they, they call you up.
• 21:14
  Speaker A: So, so, so I was just thinking about you. You, this is something you, you signed up for the, the ESA chapter. That's the Information Systems Security association, right? I think.
• 21:29
  Speaker B: Yes, yes.
• 21:31
  Speaker A: So.
• 21:31
  Speaker B: Association, I think. Yeah. Information Security System Associate. Yep.
• 21:36
  Speaker A: And so I think one of the things that, you know, I'd love to get your insight on and share with our listeners is about how do you become involved? What are the, what are some of the best ways that you've now seen to become involved as a leader? You know, you're coming up as a leader, you're, you're building your skills and things like that. What things should people be looking at, participating in and being a part of?
• 21:58
  Speaker B: So certainly networking. I try to attend Conferences as often as I can. The ESA chapter, the Alamo ESA chapter has monthly meetings to attend and mentorships as well. So those are all, I think probably the most beneficial when you're trying to. Because they go into. It's not just about the tech, it's also about your soft skills. You're learning how to lead others in this industry. You know that, that we're in and under in within so many different disciplines. And so that's, that's really, I really think that that's probably one of the best ways is to just get out there. And I discovered them by attending an IT conference that was in San Antonio. Gosh, I can't even remember the name of it. It was so long ago. I'm sorry. But just, you know, someone said here, I've got a free passport if you'd like to attend. And I went, okay, awesome. And that just kind of opened my whole world.
• 22:58
  Speaker A: So, yeah, so, so like striking out there. Don't be afraid to approach people. Don't be afraid to talk at those conferences.
• 23:04
  Speaker B: Absolutely.
• 23:05
  Speaker A: Find your way through there. So I'm gonna shift back more fun conversation for a second here mentioned, you know, your apple IIe days. So what was your favorite, what was your favorite game?
• 23:20
  Speaker B: So I played Oregon Trail like crazy. But also, yeah, Oregon Trail is the one that pops up the most. But anything that allowed me to any logic games, so anything where I could answer or trivia or logic games where I could just answer questions and move forward. So those were. But yeah, definitely, Oregon Trail was fun where we didn't have the pretty pictures back then it was like, okay, there's a. And in words it said there's a stampede coming your way. What do you do? And you have to quickly type it. And hopefully you did it fast enough. Hopefully it was the right answer. Yeah.
• 23:57
  Speaker A: And so a couple weeks ago I was so, so I, I live in upstate New York and in Rochester, New York. That's where my office is. Although I live a couple hours away from Rochester. We have, there's a museum called the Strong Museum of Play. And the Strong Museum has, they're, they're actually the national, the like literally like the US's National Museum for Play and all types of play. So games, everything else they have like, they have like original copies of Monopoly and all sorts of crazy. One of the things they also have is the International Video Game hall of Fame. And so, so for all the listeners out there, you know, you put, put Rochester on your, your, your list of things. If you're a Big video gamer. Because that's actually where they have the. The like the international video game, like introduction ceremonies to the holidays. But they. They of course have a series of video games that you can play. So like, last a couple weeks ago when I was up one day with my family and we stopped at the Strong. I'm sitting here, like on a phone call playing Oregon Trail in the back, and I like working my way. Working my way along, going through Kansas. Do I have to ford this river? You know? Yeah. Oh, look, my. My. My wagon took on water, and when I forded the river, I lose two days, you know?
• 25:18
  Speaker B: Yes, I remember all of that. And I think the other one that I used to enjoy, which is not. Not crazy for me, but Mavis Davis was the typing tutor.
• 25:29
  Speaker A: Mavis Bacon. Mavis. Mavis Bacon Beacon.
• 25:34
  Speaker B: Oh, not a hundred percent.
• 25:36
  Speaker A: See, I have. I have the benefit. I have the benefit of the Internet here. There you go. Talking. That can. That can tell us which one this actually was. You know what? I remember it was Mavis Beacon. He keeps typing. Yeah. And I do remember that if you were just a couple years younger, like my wife's a couple years younger than me, there was like a. Mario teaches typing.
• 26:02
  Speaker B: Oh, I didn't know that.
• 26:03
  Speaker A: Yeah, but. Yes, but Mavis Beacon with. In her business suit showing you how to type like a pro.
• 26:14
  Speaker B: That's right. That's right. And the worst typists, I think, are IT people. Or maybe not coders. Coders are pretty good. But yeah.
• 26:24
  Speaker A: Now this is. I'm gonna. Something I'm trying to figure out as I'm talking to you is, was Mavis Beacon a real person character? Mavis Beacon.
• 26:35
  Speaker B: I think she was right.
• 26:39
  Speaker A: It says a fictional character created by this computer software. Vet the history, the fame. Mavis Beacon. Though it's often thought of to be up with confusion, Mavis Beacon is often thought to be a living or historical figure by the public. Confusion has led to many to contact the software developer seeking to speak to interview or book Mavis for an event.
• 27:00
  Speaker B: That's awesome.
• 27:01
  Speaker A: They call up. Mavis has taught all our students. Can we get them for a student assembly, please? They're like, yeah, you know what? They should have just leaned into this and been like, yeah, yeah, we'll send her right over.
• 27:12
  Speaker B: Right. No, kid. Oh, that would have been a big money maker. And here I had a whole narrative. I had a whole narrative in my head. She was from the 30s, the little typing rooms. I had this whole.
• 27:22
  Speaker A: Right, you were 100% certain. 30. 30 seconds ago. Right.
• 27:30
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 27:33
  Speaker A: Although there's a detail here. It says as of 1998 she had instructed 6 million school children.
• 27:40
  Speaker B: Oh, see, she's touched people.
• 27:46
  Speaker A: Wikipedia says that she is compared to a US cultural icon. Betty Crocker has been called the Betty Crocker of cyberspace.
• 27:53
  Speaker B: I love it.
• 27:55
  Speaker A: We're groundbreaking stuff right here. Wikipedia about. About the typing software we use to children. Exactly. Yeah. So like I remember what. Speaking of like first computers, when I was a kid by. We had the TI A Texas instruments, the TI 99.4A. That was our. Okay, that was like technically my first computer. Now my dad was an IBMer and and so we. That's actually how I moved to Texas was. So where I live in upstate New York, Binghamton is where IBM was founded. And yeah, so like they had tons of IBM employees, like 30,000 IBM employees around here at one point and big manufacturing hub for them and things. And then when in the 50s and 60s when they grew rapidly, they built out Raleigh and Austin as cluster loans of Endicott facility for manufacturing purposes. My father, he worked in the manufacturing areas and was like, oh, I'll take a transfer to Austin. So off we went in the early 1980s to live in Austin. But ironically, our first computer was not in fact an IBM, it was a ti. Okay, then we did later get an IBM computer. So did in fact, at one point in my life I own. Owned an IBM. An IBM PS1 in fact.
• 29:15
  Speaker B: Oh my gosh. Yeah, I remember those. I had a Commodore. I mean I found it at a garage sale once and yeah, it was.
• 29:25
  Speaker A: And nowadays some of these things are worth pretty good money. Like when you. Yeah, you know, if you, you know, if you find the right ones. I know, like, you know, but. But the thing is, how do you keep it?
• 29:34
  Speaker B: Like, like I think it's. Tandy was another one, right.
• 29:37
  Speaker A: TR. You get yourself a TRS 80 or something like, like at one point, like for instance, my. My grandparents here in town, they had a. I mean they've longed since passed. But back when I was a kid, 80s and early 90s, they had this like 71 Dodge. And I don't know why they kept it, but they just never sold it. It was a cool car from the 70, you know, had a nice, cool design. I don't remember exactly what model of Dodge it was but. And they got rid of it I think in the mid-90s because eventually it stopped passing state inspection because like, like the house, like, you know, it was cast as private. Need this to work. But like if that car was around it was, you know, in good condition. It might be a $30,000 car, a $40,000 car. So you'd be like, oh, man, if you only saved that thing for now. But I'm like, you know how much effort it is to save a vehicle. Like, like you're probably gonna put 20 grand in over the years into saving it to get $30,000 at the end. Like, is that, I mean, of course, if you did put 20 grand in and you got 30,000, I guess technically you're ahead on your money. But you still have the question of, like, what's your time worth and what's your effort worth?
• 30:50
  Speaker B: Absolutely.
• 30:53
  Speaker A: Like, I, I, I had, I had a motorcycle that I had to, I had for many years, and I got writing it very little, and I was like, wow, if anybody else, you know, maybe I have a kid who might want it or something, but do I really want to hang on to this for the next, like 12 years until I find out that my kid is going to be like, oh, yeah, dad, that would be awesome to have that.
• 31:13
  Speaker B: Right? You know, big. That's a big risk right there. Because chances are pretty good they wouldn't, right? They're like, eh, that's older.
• 31:22
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and of course that like one thing, you know, you threw away like, like the, you know, first edition of whatever thing, like.
• 31:29
  Speaker B: Right. My grandfather had a Gold Wing, a Mercedes Gold Wing, and he bought it for ten grand. I forget how much it was. It was some ridiculous number nowadays and sold it the next year and made $5,000. And that was a wonderful deal as far as he was concerned, until, you know, fast forward 60 years and he can get. I don't know what they're going for now. A million, Something like, I don't know. I actually have no idea. But it's like some crazy amount of money.
• 31:58
  Speaker A: And yeah, clearly, that clearly would have been worth it for like, that one thing. So now you can, now you can, you can curse and be like, oh, damn you. Damn you, grandpa. You should have saved that after all. But like, how do you know which ones are the ones you actually save? Like, it's so. I don't want to call it a crapshoot because it's not totally a crapshoot, but it's hard. Like, the cars that usually. The ones that are most, the thing that's most valuable started valuable to begin with. So, like, would you really have it to begin with? Like.
• 32:27
  Speaker B: Right. True that. True that.
• 32:29
  Speaker A: You know, there's, there's, there's very, there's Many fewer of the like, oh, this is the, in the motorcycle where there's a. I think it's the Honda like CB7, which was a, like Honda's first motorcycle. What the first like four stroke, something like motorcycle. I don't know all the details. Somebody will probably, you know, flame us on the podcast about how, how I met up and didn't get it right. But, but anyways, it was an important bike, but it was cheap. You know, it was, it was meant to be like an every person's bike. So if you had one, you had one of the first generations that was made in like a sand cast metal instead of the die cast metals or whatever they were, it's incredibly valuable and that would be an inexpensive thing that became very valuable. But like most things don't follow that trajectory, right?
• 33:18
  Speaker B: Absolutely, that's very true.
• 33:21
  Speaker A: So anyways, there's a rabbit hole out. So getting back to some of the other things we talked about before. When you're thinking about leadership and you know, you mentioned you've mentored kids with cybersecurity. You yourself have a, you finished a degree somewhat recently in cybersecurity, at least more recently than when you first went to school. You took a break.
• 33:46
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 33:50
  Speaker A: What kind of advice do you have to share for folks that are looking for those first it leadership roles and how do they break into them?
• 34:03
  Speaker B: Listening. I think that was one of my biggest challenges was learning to listen and learning to work with a team of, you know, of. And learning. Learning how as you said, managing up. I think listening is probably the most important skill that we have to, you know, whether it's to listen to what people, what your need, what their needs are, what they're really asking for. Um, as a, you know, as a younger person, I, I was certainly that person that go, oh, you want, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I go off on this whole, you know, path and that really wasn't going to solve their, their problem. It really wasn't. And so as. I hope at least that as I've gotten older and got been in leadership and that I've developed much better listening skills, that's probably my, my number one thing that I would say. I think I've, I've really. That would be the number one thing actually. Yeah. Be hungry. I'd be hungry. I'd be hungry too. You know, to get into leadership. How.
• 35:10
  Speaker A: What things have you feel that you've learned? I mean, you had a, you know, multiple years in the leadership role. What do you think was different about you when you left that role or when you started.
• 35:24
  Speaker B: I'd like to think that I have a little more humility. I'll say it was, it was a decision as you, you know, as we said earlier, a lateral move, but something that I went, wait, I'm a, I'm a manager and I'm going to move to not being a manager. And yeah, I think I, I think it took a lot of some humility and I hope that I've learned some humility, you know, over, over the, over the years and to be able to do that for myself and, and say, okay, this is, this is a step that you need to take to continue to continue moving up, forward, upward, whatever, however you might want to phrase that.
• 36:09
  Speaker A: But yeah, yeah, I think about. I, I know I've, I had this conversation different guests of the podcast over Tasha, but the way I frame it is I'm like, so I'm 46 and you know, so 46 year old me is a, is a manager. I happened to be a. Been a manager when I was 26 in a consulting firm. There are things that 26 year old me did that I would be like, dude, what were you thinking, man?
• 36:39
  Speaker B: Right. Right, Calm down.
• 36:41
  Speaker A: I was really. You're really beta. You're really being a jerk that time.
• 36:45
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 36:46
  Speaker A: You know, like, like, you know, you know, there's a certain element of, you know, I don't say age brings humility, but it brings, it brings a certain level of perspective and certainly, you know, the, the benefit of, of time to understand certain things and be more, you know, have a, have a different horizon than, you know, when you're, it's your younger years.
• 37:06
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 37:07
  Speaker A: I was just thinking through the benefits, some of the benefits of, of that.
• 37:12
  Speaker B: I can only. I. Yeah, I know I'd had that same conversation with myself at 25 versus versus now. So.
• 37:18
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, like, I appreciate what you shared about like in your, in your younger years, you're like, I wouldn't necessarily listen fully. I would be like, I heard what you said, I got to go take care of this. If you like, like you're trying to solve the problem before you've even perhaps before you've even stopped to think through, like why. What are they actually asking?
• 37:36
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 37:39
  Speaker A: So yeah, you know, if you're, if you're solving the wrong problem, are you really solving anything at all?
• 37:44
  Speaker B: Like, very true.
• 37:45
  Speaker A: Just creating more work.
• 37:46
  Speaker B: Right? Exact. Absolutely. And it's happened enough to where I'm glad that I, I hope I've learned enough from that. Yeah. From that experience.
• 37:55
  Speaker A: So you know, another thing I would ask if you, what kind of advice you give to folks who are like, you mentioned, you mentored students, stuff like that, if one of them came to you and said, hey, I want to be, you know, in cyber security space, you know, whatever the job is they want to ask for, what kind of, you know, what kind of advice would you give to them to, to, to. In the context of becoming a leader.
• 38:31
  Speaker B: I think, I think openness. I think that, you know, as a leader you've got to be open and I think that as a leader you have to share with your teams, you know, what you're. Where, where you're going. They need, they're going to need some. I really just, yeah, openness would probably be the. One of the things that I would say as a leader and in cyber. It seems the opposite of what you might expect being a technical field.
• 39:03
  Speaker A: But tell me more about that, like why, why, why. Why is there that difference there? Why do you perceive that?
• 39:11
  Speaker B: Well, because I think that there, there's an. I guess it's probably an old, I hope it's an old, you know, stereotype about how tech people are. Right. But closed and very much that person who went in and just here, let me just fix this for you. And I don't have the time to talk to you. I've got a hundred, you know, and so one of the things that I do that I have tried when I've, we had interns working with us and stuff like that is to. Is to push them to be, you know, more receptive and to, to hear again, going back to listening and hearing what people are saying and what their needs are, but also sharing and letting people know that there's a, there's a, you know, there's another side to, to leadership. Right? Yes. You want, you're there to meet the company's goals. That's, you know, as a whole. But we can all do it together. We can all do it and we all, we all contribute. We're a big part of the success of the company as well. So it's not just, it's not just the. What's the phrase I'm looking for? I guess it's not just how the, it's not just the end. Right? It's not just the end game. It's not what we're trying to. There is how did we get there and did we create a, did we create a culture? And a, did we create a culture that will also perpetuate and continue on after us as well? So that's, that's. That can be built upon and continue on after us.
• 40:59
  Speaker A: I like that. April, thank you so much for investing your time with us on the podcast today.
• 41:09
  Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I really. I really appreciate your time as well.
• 41:15
  Speaker A: So that's a wrap on today's episode of Dissecting Popular IT Nerds. I'm Doug Kameen, and we look forward to coming to you on our next episode.