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Transcript

The Truth About Recruiting · Mortgage Marketing Radio

0:00
Hey, hey, listeners, what's up, Jeff, the Zimper, your host for the mortgage marketing radio
0:08
podcast.
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Hey, before we get into today's episode, would you do me a favor?
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I know you hear me ask for reviews on this podcast and usually I'm asking those reviews
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be left.
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We're ever listening on this podcast platform, you know, it's Apple Spotify, typically
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is where you're listening.
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But here's what I realized.
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I was actually just on a call with somebody and what they pointed out was that I'm going
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to be honest and transparent with you, okay?
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My Google reviews are weak and that is unacceptable for me because I'm a huge advocate of the Google
0:39
Business Profile.
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I teach Google Business Profile classes to help realtors and mortgage professionals and
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others optimize their Google presence.
0:46
And here's what I realized the other day.
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I'm like the, you know, the cobbler whose kids have no shoes.
0:52
So what I'm going to ask if you wouldn't mind is there's a link in the show notes here
0:55
that it's going to be, you know, leave a review on Google is probably what I'll say or leave
0:58
a review, right?
0:59
And it'll be a link to my Google Business Profile.
1:02
If you wouldn't mind taking a moment to leave me a review there about how you've enjoyed
1:07
the value of the podcast and content you've got the impact that's had on your business,
1:11
I would greatly appreciate that.
1:12
And then if you want to be gutsy and you want to DM me the fact that you left a review,
1:17
I'll have a special surprise bonus thank you gift for you for doing that, okay?
1:21
So I appreciate you guys for doing that.
1:23
And that's just because I want to build up my Google Business Profile presence.
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And by the way, if you haven't, you should do because that is part of the consumer journey.
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They're checking you out on Google just like some of y'all listening right now.
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I've probably looked me up on Google and said, well, three reviews on Google.
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So would you help me?
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I'm pleading.
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Help me.
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Help me get more reviews.
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Link is in the show notes or you can just go to Google and look up mortgage marketing
1:46
institute, but probably easier if you just scroll through your phone or listening right
1:50
now and tap that link that says leave a review.
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You should that.
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Okay.
1:55
And one more thing before we forget, of course, I'm coming to you with another success
1:59
story from the trenches.
2:02
And this is for once again, one of our pro members.
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As you guys know, the name of the game today is land grab market share grab.
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The tide has gone out.
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There are agents leaving the business.
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Yes.
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But the good news is that means there's less competition and that, you know, the rising
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tide reveals who's left naked said that before.
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But here's what I wanted to share with you.
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If you've identified and realized that real estate agents should be and are a key pillar
2:28
of your business, not the only pillar, but a key pillar of your business, the question
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is how do you pursue agents?
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How do you get those engagements, conversations?
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How do you get awareness?
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How do you not show up like everybody else and put yourself at a disadvantaged position?
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See because most originators are positioning themselves as a solicitor or a vendor, right?
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And that's all about you.
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You're there to get or if you're a vendor, yeah, you're a vendor like who the hell wants
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to be a vendor, right?
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To you, I don't want to be a vendor.
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I want to be a partner because a vendor is simply a place to get something.
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It's a place to transact and a vendor's not seen as an equal.
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A vendor's not seen as a peer.
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And what we want to do is show up in our current market and when we're attempting to engage
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with real estate agents and get engagement, get conversations, we want to leapfrog from
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solicitor and vendor to peer, right, and partner and ultimately becoming mentor and
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later.
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See, as I've said before, if you expect to earn their business, you need to become part
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of their business.
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And one of the easiest ways to do that is help them solve problems.
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And this is what we do with our members of the mortgage marketing pro community through
3:36
our my agent classes platform.
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We help them solve problems.
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We help them solve marketing problems.
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We help them solve business planning problems, social media, video marketing, et cetera.
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Google business profile problems.
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That's one of the classes our members teach is how to optimize your Google business profile
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to get more reviews to show up on page one of Google and so forth.
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I thought I'd share with you.
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I've got so many testimonials.
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I don't remember what I share when, but here's the latest one or when I'm sharing today.
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Johnny Walker out of Florida.
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Johnny says she's doing her second class in 30 days, which is what my best members do to
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a month on average, maybe one virtual one in person.
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She got three applications in yesterday sent to her from agents who attended her class
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that she sent meetings with those agents afterwards.
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Wow.
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Here's another one.
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Another one.
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By the way, Carmel is always showing up on my list of success stories because she is
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a rock star.
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She did a class today, 25 agents registered 16 showed up eight out of the 16 were heavy
4:35
hitters attending her class for the first time.
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It actually took some time and effort to get those heavy hitters to show up at her class,
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but they did.
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She scheduled three appointments immediately after the class and two others ending following
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up.
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So one class, five appointments in one hour booked and some of those are heavy hitters.
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How else are you getting in front of agents?
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What's your strategy?
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If you want a better strategy and plan, if you want to go from solicitor and vendor to
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partner and peer, go check out mortgage marketing dot pro.
5:05
That's the video there.
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The testimonials I've got there and book a call with me to see if it's a fit for you.
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All right.
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So without further ado, let's get into this week's episode where my special guests are
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Andy Stewart and Dave Hendricks in both from the home side group of mortgage companies,
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the family of companies under the home side umbrella.
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And as you'll hear Andy talk about, you know, he's a VP of ops and Dave is a senior vice
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president of sales and business development.
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And this is not my normal podcast discussion.
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I wanted to have a discussion with these guys because I thought it would be interesting.
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I thought I would learn a few things talking with them and I did and I thought you might
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too.
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And the title of this episode is the truth about recruiting.
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The reason why I wanted to bring this to you guys is because look at it in this market,
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there's a lot of shifting going on.
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There's some movement, right?
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And you may, yourself, may be considering a change.
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And both Andy and Dave, because they've been in the industry for 20 plus years, have seen
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and heard it all when it comes to recruiting is the grass really greener.
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Hey, watch out for those signing board bonuses that they're, they're, you know, dangling
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at you like a carrot on the end of a stick.
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What's the truth?
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What's real?
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What's not real?
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How do know when it is time to make a move?
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What do you really look for if you're considering another company and when to not move?
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When is the wrong time to not move and stay where you are?
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We talk about those things and more on today's episode.
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And if we want to connect with those guys, Andy and Dave, that link is in the show notes as well.
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So hope you enjoyed this episode.
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Let's get into this week's show.
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Andy and Dave, welcome to the show.
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Thanks for having us.
6:36
Thanks for having us.
6:36
It's my pleasure.
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So let's do this.
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When I have two people on, usually as guests, we got to identify who's who.
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So I'm going to pick just because so nobody freezes like a deer in the headlights.
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So why don't we start with you, Andy?
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Who are you?
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What do you do?
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I'm Andy Stewart.
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I am a VPN operations and run a team within the home side, lower family of companies.
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And I've been in the mortgage space for, gosh, 20, 22 years now.
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Wow.
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Yeah, that's a long time.
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Usually I usually say congratulations and condolences on that one.
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But drum snare, hey, Dave, same question for you.
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Who are you and what do you do?
7:17
Yeah, Dave Hendrickson, also a part of the home side and lower family,
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really have been searching for a title for the better part of 23 years.
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But I guess if you're looking at Orchard, the SVP of sales and business development.
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Okay.
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What do you mean when you say lower, you know, what was that description you used?
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Well, the lower is just the holding company for the company we work with.
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So lower.com and it's a subset, a subsidiary of that is home side financial.
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Okay, God, thank you very much.
7:46
Okay, cool.
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So we're here today to talk about, I was trying to come up with a catchy title.
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We're talking about the truth about recruiting.
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That's what we're going with here today.
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Because, you know, we're in a market where there's some shifting happening
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and a lot of different ways.
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And there are loan officers listening to this right now who have already made a move
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or who are potentially contemplating a move.
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And so what we want to do is kind of unpack the truth about recruiting,
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some things to look out for.
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And you guys are obviously experts at this.
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So by the way, for those listening right now,
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this isn't a thinly valid recruiting pitch for you.
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This is, you know, Dave and Andy came to me by way of John Cornish,
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who's been on our podcast twice now.
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And I've got some connections and relationships that are people over there.
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And I thought, you know, for John's idea,
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it would be a good, good conversation to have for our listeners
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so that if you are thinking about a move, like what do you look for?
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And I think, you know, Dave and Andy are great based on the conversation we had last week.
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Great tips and conversation around that.
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So when what are the first things if somebody's considering a move and you guys can decide
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how you take this, right? Either one of you go first.
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If I'm a loan officer and I've been at my company whatever period of time,
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you know, and I'm thinking like, hmm, I don't know if this is the right place for me.
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And I'm going to start looking.
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What advice would you have for that person who's in that framework?
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I can start this, Andy, and if you want to parlay on it, that'd be great.
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But my first question is always why?
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Like, why are you leaving the place that you've been loyal to for X amount of years?
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What happened there to get you to this point?
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So I don't think it would be, this is my opinion, right?
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I don't think everybody's going to have the same drive to leave a company.
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Are they leaving a leader?
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Are they leaving a company?
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Did they realize that their comp plans not as good as they thought it was?
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Are they losing to the competition on rate, product, service?
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I think there's a lot of different answers there, Jeff, but I would always want to know
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what got you to the point where you wanted to peek over the fence?
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Yeah, that's a good, good question.
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I'm thinking do I want to roleplay with that?
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But of course, there's like 10 different answers to that.
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Andy, you have anything you want to add on that?
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Look, mine's kind of a taking that answer.
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I guess trying to simplify it.
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And I always ask if somebody's wanting to, I'm like, are you running away from something
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or are you running to something, right?
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Because if you're running away from something,
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you're going to find yourself in a position
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that you thought the grass was greener, and it really isn't.
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But if you're running to something,
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you actually know what you're looking forward to
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and there is a plan in place for you to move forward.
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So I think that's always my first question.
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Like there's bad days in the mortgage business.
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And if you have a bad day and somebody calls you at the right time,
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it sounds exciting.
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And are you running away from a problem that can be solved?
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Are you running to something that that problem won't exist or rear its head?
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And I think those are the things you need to ask yourself.
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Yeah. Well, you said something a moment ago, Dave.
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Are you leaving a leader or are you leaving a company?
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And I'm reminding me of a quote.
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I'd be curious to get your feedback on this.
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Is people don't leave companies, they leave leaders.
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And I don't know where I stand on that in terms of belief.
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But I think it's an interesting one to chew on for a bit.
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So I'll toss that your way.
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What do you say to that, Dave?
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I do. I come from that same belief, Jeff.
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I think people leave people.
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I think in today's market, what we're facing is a little different.
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I think loyalty is only going to go so far.
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And I think regardless of the production level that the individual does
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or the branch of regional manager,
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we're getting to a point where finances are becoming tight in the mortgage industry
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for 80 to 85% of the entire industry, regardless of the level.
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Right.
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We all know that lifestyles are adjusted based on expected and past earnings.
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And if everyone's income is cut in half,
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or they prepare to weather the storm, right?
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So I do believe people leave people.
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I think this next nine months though, loyalty is going to be very challenging
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because if you can't pay the water bill,
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you know, are you still going to be loyal to Dave Hendricks
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and an Andy Stewart?
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And the answer is no, you're going to be loyal to your family.
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So I do believe people leave people,
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but I think in this upcoming nine months,
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it's going to be tough to say that.
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Yeah.
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And then loyalty can, like, you know, everybody has their price, right?
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So let's talk a little bit about some of these,
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some of the siren songs of signing bonuses
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that are waived in front of these producers that get them to put loyalty and question
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and leave for, like you said earlier, the greener grass
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or what they think is going to be that better solution
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because there's a big fat check waiting.
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That comes with it a bunch that's kind of a hairy ball there to deal with,
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right, if you will.
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Let's unpack that for a little bit.
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I don't know if Andy, you want to kind of take that.
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What, what, what do people need to look out
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be cautious of if they've, if they're blinded by the bonus?
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Well, look, I think, to me, I think if you understand,
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what kind of is, I'm going to use the word trending in the business, right?
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So, and if somebody is an anomaly out there, why is that, right?
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If someone said, I'm going to pay you, you know,
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two acts on your production and someone else says,
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I'm going to pay you seven X, or tell me why, right?
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What, what is all, what's that?
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Yeah, correct, correct.
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It is, it's like, is it too good to be true?
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And more times than not, it is.
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I don't know how else to say it.
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I think that, you know,
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Let me ask, let me ask you this way as well.
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Should people leave just for the bonus?
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I think, to Dave's point earlier, I think it depends on where they're at,
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financially, within their family.
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Your loyalty number one is to your family, but you got to make sure that
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if what gets me through these next nine, 12, 18 months,
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if that is at the expense of three or four of my top relationships for referral partners,
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what does, what does that do for me long term?
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Right? So what, what is good for me now?
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I mean, that could be good for me to democracy for tomorrow.
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And I think that's where, I think that's where trouble can arise in terms of the recruiting world
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is, people are looking at what happened.
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What's, what's today looked like not tomorrow?
14:00
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah.
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Dave, you're welcome to jump in.
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I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm creating pregnant pauses on purpose just in case you want to jump in.
14:08
Yeah.
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And I think that Andy nailed it.
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And I do truly believe that, you know, if you're really a transparent company and try to get
14:17
in front of people and in full disclosure, we've lost some teams that Andy and I could have done
14:21
better. We've never blamed home side. It just, what could we have done better to keep them?
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But I do believe that, you know, we are coming into a unique time and the decision might be
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for somebody to just say, I have to take this money and let the markets settle down.
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And I would understand that and I truly would. But I think a transparent company that moves
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a little forward, we have had conversations with all our leaders that says, look, if they're leaving
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just for money, let's just talk this through, right? Because could they be making a mistake,
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there probably is something to work out there to where we could pay some type of retention bonus
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or something along those lines? Because, you know, I think attrition is going to be the big thing
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for companies over the next nine months. It's going to be a very big concern for them. I think
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too many companies are focused right now on recruiting. But if you've got a hundred million
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walking out the back door and 50 million walking in the front, did you really win? And that's where
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we would hope that people would come to us with the transparency of, hey, it is hard to have that
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conversation. But good companies have prepared for markets like this. And if they're willing to
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spend all this money, you know, 30, 40 basis points on last 12 months production, why are they
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not willing to take care of the people that they know have been profitable historically with them?
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So we're really trying to stay in front of that and making sure that we have everybody's
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ear in regards to, if you're just leaving for money, come to us.
15:45
Yeah. And again, that goes back to leadership and relationship. And do you trust that
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relationship to be able to have that conversation? But you mentioned, you think attrition is going
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to get ugly. What, why do you think that is? I just think that, look, if I really look at
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the signing bonuses been paid to bring this back into recruiting from March of last year through
16:05
kind of January of 23, every company, most companies were banking on a hot spring market,
16:12
a summer market with rates in the fives. All the experts were saying it was going to happen.
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And when it didn't hit, they were kind of like, oh, we got to pay less from a standpoint of this.
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But also with with them paying less margins have condensed and people are just going broke.
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So I truly know this. I mean, everyone thinks, hey, a hundred million dollar producers,
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just to keep it simple, they make a million dollars. Well, they've made a million dollars
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for the last 10 years. In 2021, they probably made a million and a half or two million.
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But this year and last year, they're on pace to make 400,000 or 300,000 this year. But they've
16:49
adjusted their lifestyles to the income that they could have counted on the past 10 years.
16:53
So they have the layhouse. They haven't overextended themselves. They've just been a victim of the
16:58
market. So if that individual gets to a point, they may just have to take the check. They might have to.
17:04
Okay. You got it. Can't sell the layhouse. You got to take the check, right?
17:11
Well, that's but also, you know, there are some lessons in there, though.
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Now I get what you're saying. I've been, you know, a customer, but that's this business.
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We know this business is cyclical and goes up and down. I don't know why this popped in my head,
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but remember, I was having a conversation with Todd Duncan the other day and he was talking about
17:28
one of his coaching clients who said, I can't afford it. You know, and the guy had a $900
17:32
month car payment, right? And it's like, what do you mean you can't afford it? Like you got to choose,
17:38
you know, which one's more important? Yep. So I'm not saying give up the layhouse. I'm saying,
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yeah, people, this is, this is not an easy situation because of all the issues we know that come
17:49
into that. And it's like, if somebody's waving you a check and that's going to buy you another 18
17:52
months, whatever, like you said, to cover this kind of phase, you know, all the numbers we're seeing
17:56
2024 or 25. We're going to see rates come back down four to five percent. So we know there's
18:01
going to be an uptick there and there's a lot of pent up demand once again. Yeah. I wouldn't
18:06
want to be in that position. Let's put it that way myself personally. That'd be a hard choice.
18:11
I would say, Jeff, I think people prepared for a market that was going to be bad. I don't think
18:15
any of us thought it was going to be this. And if they did, then they probably are retired.
18:20
If they were able to predict that, they won't have to sell. So I just think that, you know, we're
18:26
kind of like the hourglass has kind of running out of sand. And it's going to be really difficult
18:32
for a lot of people that have been very loyal to their companies for many years.
18:36
Okay. So let's do this. Let's go through a couple of questions I've got from our previous
18:40
conversation for notes. What do you think people, considering a move, what are the most important
18:45
things that the top three things they should look for if they're evaluating a change?
18:52
For me, look, I think part of it is, you know, when we're talking about people leave leadership
18:56
or, you know, I think that's, that should be top priority. I think, I think the last of the
19:02
three should be from a compensation perspective. That's where I sit and really what can it do
19:11
to improve my business or how can it help me grow my business? So, you know, leadership,
19:17
how can it help me grow? And then what the comp plan looks like in my opinion, because again,
19:22
what we're trying to get through today isn't what life's going to look like tomorrow. And you
19:28
want to position yourself for tomorrow, especially if you are accepting some kind of compensation
19:33
for a move, and there's some sort of two year, three year tag to it, you're there. You know,
19:39
if we come out on the other side of this and you don't like it, you're there.
19:45
Stuck. Well, what's interesting is I didn't hear products in there, which is kind of cool,
19:50
because I think, you know, too many LOs, like they've got that as the first arrow in their
19:56
quiver of like products. What do you got for products, man? You know, look, I would tell you,
20:01
if I look at holistically, you know, a generalization of a product mix for an originator, 80% of their
20:10
business is predominantly similar products. Maybe a little bit higher than that, but let's say you
20:16
say 80%. So there's 20% differential. And when you try and sell a product, what's cool and
20:22
flashy about a product is it's, it's there for 60, 90, 120 days. And then if it's an investor that's
20:29
got a cap space, then they're done. Now the product doesn't exist, right? So as quick as products come
20:34
in, you see products go. So to try and to try and sell, we've got all these products. Okay, but
20:41
how long have you had them? How long are you going to have? And so I think product is a tough
20:45
thing to do, especially when the, you know, 80% 80 plus percent of your business is your
20:52
standard conventional performing agency, jumbo, government business. It's not the one-offs
20:59
that that people are talking about. I think I think products have a lot to do with conversations
21:05
starters. I don't know that it has a lot to do with building a business in my opinion.
21:09
Okay. What is some inside baseball? You guys would want to share, right? That, that
21:21
originators don't often get access to, like the behind the closed doors. You guys are, you know,
21:26
both involved in recruiting. You talked to loan officers. I'm sure quite a lot. You deal with
21:30
company executives. What would, what could you share with them, right? That if that, you know,
21:36
remember the old things, top of the stairs, kids are listening in on the parents conversation,
21:40
top of the stairs, right? Like what would be a conversation you'd want to have LOs here to help
21:47
them along this process? I think to keep it on kind of subject here, right, is then understanding
21:54
what they take from a signing bonus perspective. You know, when Andy and I look at it, we know that
21:59
a company's going to try to, whatever they give you, they've got two years to get it back because
22:03
you're probably going to take it to your tag in today's market with the money out there, right?
22:07
So I want them to understand just, hey, look, here's how the back end works. Here's what they're
22:12
going to do to your margins and you're held victim because you took all this money. And that is what
22:18
I believe is putting these LOs in a very difficult position. There's companies out there that have a
22:24
two-year tag and there's like no drop off every month, meaning, you know, let's just keep it really
22:29
simple and say two-year tag at $240,000 or $240,000 signing bonus to your tag, right? So every month,
22:38
$10,000 historically would drop off, but companies have went away from that. So if they left month
22:43
23, they would owe the 240 back plus 9%, 10%, 11%, 12%, I've seen all the way up to 15%
22:52
interest rate compounded monthly on that 240 they took. So we've also seen some companies terminate
23:00
employees based on lack of production because of the markets that we're in or not hitting the
23:06
anticipated production that was promised when they initially sat down and then they're coming back
23:11
at the signing bonus plus the percentage. So those are some of the things that LOs just don't know
23:17
how that works on the back end and they may hope you'd are up one day and be like, why am I a
23:22
quarter of a point out and rate? And the reason is you took that money up front and
23:26
Stu, this is really your world. So if you want to dive in and kind of top that off.
23:31
I mean, look, piggyback on that piece. You're not, if you, Dave's example, if you're spending
23:38
that money, you're not making that up on the condensed margins that you're running right now in
23:43
today's world, right? You're going to try and call that back some some way shape or form.
23:48
I mean, it won't be overnight, but it'll be over time and you'll see, you'll see pricing kind
23:53
of take away from you. I think the biggest thing that we're talking with some people that I've seen
24:01
is, you know, we have talked, we have talked to companies and they like, you know, in 22 that I
24:06
got, we weren't not profitable at any point during 22 and you're like, I'm sorry, that is, that
24:16
that's not true. Like nobody went 12, 12 months in 22 without losing money. They may have sold
24:22
some servicing. They may have done other things. So their balance sheet doesn't look like it, but
24:25
from just the origination perspective. So I would say, but you know, lifting up the curtain behind
24:30
the scenes is when people tell you that you really got to dive into it, especially when you've
24:34
got access to national, national data and statistics to look into it. So somebody tells you that
24:40
that your next question is, so you're the anomaly and just see what they see what the response is.
24:47
Yeah, you mentioned on a call that we had last week about the average company profit after expenses.
24:52
This is for an independent company. Recall the number we talked about?
24:57
Yeah, I mean, I think so. So I'm going to go back to 19 because that's probably the best.
25:06
I'm going to say, quote unquote, normalized market, if you will, you know, companies would make
25:11
anywhere from a 15 to a 30 basis point profit after all bills are paid. And I think
25:17
some of the thought process out there is that number was closer to a 115 basis points.
25:23
And so that there's a lot of wiggle room. So obviously with 22 happening and how it was,
25:29
that number was negative. And if you look at the MBA statistics on it, in 22, the
25:36
hedge or the cost of hedging your business was actually running at a negative on the national average.
25:41
So they're actually losing money on per transaction basis.
25:46
Well, I'm just whenever I hear those things, it's just I'm like, well, how do they stay in business?
25:54
Most most companies play for the, I want to make a little on a lot versus a lot on a little.
26:00
And so you got to, you got to, you got to be, you got to be sharp.
26:06
Very interesting. Okay, the other thing we're seeing happening is the attention back on the
26:11
broker side of things, right? The brokers are better campaign. And I got some brokers. I love
26:17
I got some peeps out there, but I know you guys have seen both sides of the fence. There's
26:21
positive negatives to both sides who wants to perhaps take that and, you know, give some coaching
26:27
tips around that. Yeah, I guess, even though I know this is like a gray area. Look, I think there's
26:36
a place for both in this market. And we see that, right? And I can't really argue a big producer
26:43
opening up their more their own mortgage broker shop in today's market. They probably will win,
26:48
right? I mean, they're selling at a different price point than the independent mortgage banker.
26:54
And the technology's gotten real good. I think that the tough thing is is how do you scale that?
26:59
So, you know, if you take a very respected leader in the industry that maybe is a regional manager
27:05
that has, you know, 60, 70 loyal LOs out there, I just don't know how you can build out a regional,
27:13
a branch, a divisional manager when you're running on like a rate sheet that's selling the lowest
27:21
grade out there, right? And so I think there's a place for both. I think that the scalability on the
27:27
broker side, they've done a great job with. I have nothing bad to say about brokers and I'm a
27:31
mortgage banker. I think for me personally, I just like to control the process a little bit more
27:36
knowing if I have something go off the conveyor belt, I can call Stu and say, hey, how do we get the
27:41
Jones or Smith file back onto the back end of the system here? So I love both. And I think there's
27:48
a place for both. And I think the problem is with the independent mortgage banks that we work for
27:54
is the lack of transparency from the independent mortgage banks over the last 20 years with what they're
28:00
doing on the back end with margins, how they're grabbing the signing bonuses back, how they're
28:05
referring something as an internal lead and cutting calm. I think that's really why the broker
28:10
started driving. And then there's some great leaders in the broker community that have been great
28:15
at getting it out from a social media standpoint. And I think any independent that should be
28:19
frustrated, be frustrated with yourself, right? You're the one that created it. They left you
28:25
and went to the broker world. So I think, although I am an independent mortgage bank, I definitely see
28:31
the positivity of the mortgage broker as well. Yeah, I mean, the one thing that I would say is if you are,
28:38
if you are in the independent space or working for an independent and going to the broker world,
28:43
I think the things that you probably don't think about is the efficiencies. So I take my team with
28:49
me. So I've got my assistant, my processor, you know, marketing, whatever it might be.
28:55
Well, they did every unit pretty much went through the conveyor belt the same way.
29:01
But if I've got 12 or 15 different people that I'm selling loans to to see who's hot from a pricing
29:07
perspective, is my team well versed in their process. And now that process has probably got a lot
29:12
of similarities. But, you know, from one place to another, there's going to be some quirks. And
29:17
that could, that could be a hiccup. And it's, it's not a negative. It's just not what somebody
29:22
coming from the independent is used to. So it's just being aware of that and understanding that there's,
29:28
there are some real potential hurdles there. And then same is true where you're freedom of,
29:33
if you went from a broker to an independent, you're freedom of being able to look at seven different
29:40
investors and look at pricing and go bar or paid to lender paid comp. Now you're going to an
29:45
independent and it's much more structured and rigid because it's more scrutinized quite,
29:49
quite honestly. So I mean, there's, there's pitfalls to both. And it just understanding what they
29:54
are before you make your decision is probably the most important piece. There's not a wrong answer
29:58
there. Sure. Yeah. Let me go back to what we said earlier, which is, are you running away or
30:03
running to right and looking at leadership operations comp, you know, probably in that order,
30:10
roughly with comp, typically being in the third position. I'm, I'm reading a, grabbing an article
30:15
here from housing wire granted. It's from July of 2022, which is a year ago. It was saying that
30:23
turnover is 30 to 40% on average and a 10 year of around three to four years. Is that still
30:28
relatively the same you think? Yeah, I do. I think that what we have been able to see now is
30:34
the independent mortgage banks gotten a little bit smarter in regards to looking on the linked
30:39
tens, the Instagrams, you can start to see a history, right? There, there are, and I would say this,
30:45
what we've seen personally is the, there's the 30 to 50 million dollar producer that will move
30:53
every three to four years. And that might be part of their business strategy, right? I'll take a two,
30:57
three hundred thousand dollar check every three to four years. And I'll never move my business
31:03
north, but I'll always do 30, 40 million if I'm at ABC mortgage, DEF mortgage broker. I know
31:08
that I'm going to do 30 to 40 million. So it's a nice way to grab a little bit of extra income,
31:13
trying to get towards that ultimate goal, right? Every tirement. The flip side to that is you don't see,
31:19
if you really look at the statistics, the big time producers, we're talking the ones making a
31:24
million, two million, three million a year. You'll see longevity there, right? Now they're going
31:29
to cut near margins really hard, but back to, you're going to make a little bit of a lot. So those
31:35
people tend to not, you know, run away from something. They actually run to something, right? But
31:42
their turnover is at lot less. So, you know, Andy, I don't know if you have different stats in me,
31:47
but what I've seen personally when you look through these is, yes, every three years, you know,
31:53
you'll see that 20, 30 to 50 million dollar producer, they're actually just running towards a
32:00
check. They're not even running away from something because it's part of their business strategy.
32:06
I would say agree. Okay. All right, in the last few minutes we have, I've got to do this just
32:11
because that might be fun. We'll see what the yellows, you know, there's the, you see the people,
32:18
or at least I have, you know, some planning about the recruiting process or how they're being
32:23
approached, you know, with, I don't know, do you guys know what I'm talking about? Or is this
32:32
in creative? I will say that certainly. I'm sure overwhelming to the yellows.
32:38
You know, Andy and I, we've been really blessed to have a couple partners that are mega producers.
32:43
So we kind of know what the, what the deal is out there when, you know, there's soliciting
32:48
towards the top producers, but look, I think it's great. I think this, right? Why wouldn't you take
32:54
a call and educate yourself on what the competition's doing? That could kind of identify the outlier,
33:00
meeting back to Andy's comment, why is this company paying seven X? Well, do a little research there.
33:06
Call some of the branches. Don't call the people they tell you to call. Of course, they're going
33:10
to say the right thing. Just grab a branch, listen, call random people. I say this about our
33:15
organization all the time. I'll give you the list of our entire organization. And guess what?
33:19
You may call someone that's really pissed off that day, but I feel confident enough in our
33:25
transparency to be able to say, hey, look, you might just get a random call from someone. So
33:30
that's what I would encourage, even if it's a mortgage broker or somebody in the independent
33:35
mortgage side, just grab the phone, look it up in Google, start calling random offices and say,
33:40
hey, I'm thinking about joining your company. Tell me about it. And you'll find people that say,
33:44
don't come, right? And that's kind of some of the things that Andy and I went through back in the
33:50
day when we were looking at transitions. And it does shock the owners when you're like, well,
33:54
hey, listen, I know you gave me this list call, this person and this person and this person.
33:59
But I actually found this branch down in Austin, Texas. They're not real happy with you.
34:04
And here's what I'm about now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That goes back to something. I don't know if
34:10
we said this last time, but you know, it's all about we said leadership, but it's also regional or
34:14
local. Like it can be the same company, but New York and LA can be completely different. No doubt.
34:21
So do your due diligence is what you're saying? Yes, because I don't think that, look, if someone
34:26
comes to a corporate America, you're going to give them your top to the lying people that are
34:31
going to feed them everything they want. You don't even know if they're getting an override if
34:35
you join or not, right? So right in your margin. So of course, they're going to say the right
34:40
thing. But I really encourage people and this is kind of going back to where we want people to
34:47
send their employment contracts to us will help you do the research. I think the worst thing anyone
34:51
can do is take the money and then realize in six months, oh, shit, I just absolutely signed up with
34:58
a horrible marriage partner. And now I'm stuck for the next, you know, 16 to 20 months,
35:04
and I'm going to lose a lot of good referral sources because of that money I took, you know,
35:09
six months ago. How difficult are these clawbacks on signing bonuses to enforce?
35:18
Everything that I've seen of you except if there is a monetary transaction that takes place,
35:26
they're they're pretty good. Now, if you're talking about like a non solicit, non-compete,
35:31
that comes down to if it's just that most states are an at will state or many of them. So those
35:40
are harder to enforce if there's no monetary exchange in between. But if there's a monetary exchange
35:45
for the signed agreement, they're pretty, I mean, not saying that you're dead to rights with it,
35:52
but you're going to pay somebody to help you try and get out of it for sure at the bare minimum.
35:58
Interesting. What I guess then closing comments, what do you guys, you've got an audience of
36:04
loan officers listening, right? What do you want them to know from a recruiter's standpoint,
36:12
from you guys, you know, interfacing with loan officers, like you have this chance to like set
36:16
the record straight, hey, we're not all trying to, you know, bug you or whatever, like what do you
36:22
want to say to Ellos? Andy, I'll let you kick it off. Yeah. I mean, the couple of things that I would
36:28
say is if you're picking up that phone call and you have a bad day and you're having a bad day
36:36
and you want to have that conversation, get their number and tell them you're calling back in
36:39
24 hours. And then let's see where your head's at. The other piece is some of these calls are when
36:46
they come in and they tell you how bad your current company is before they even say a lick about
36:50
their own. I'm probably not worth the time, money and energy that you're going to waste, lose,
36:56
or or not realize by having a conversation like that because that's at the end of the day,
37:03
the pie in this business is big enough for everybody. It doesn't need to be just one company that
37:09
does every every loan under the sun. It's it's it's right. The right fit for the right guy and
37:16
you know, I might be the right fit. Dave might be the right fit. You might be the right fit and it might
37:21
be oil and water. So I just think it's important to focus on if you're taking a call, is it what's best
37:30
for the company and the recruiter or is it what's best for you and the company? You always got to
37:36
be able to come out with a win-win because win loses never last. All right. Okay, that was good.
37:43
Dave, put a cherry on top of that. Yeah, look, I know this is going to hurt, but listen,
37:47
Lona is branch managers, regional managers. It's you, right? You're the problem, right? Like
37:53
if you're running towards something, go for it, right? But if you're running away, just just be
37:59
honest with the company and transparent. I would love it if someone came to Andy and I said,
38:03
listen, we've done no research on you. We're broke, right? We would have a vetting process,
38:09
but I would love that individual. Instead, they want to come in and talk about my company's not
38:14
doing this, my company's not doing that, my company's not doing that. Here's a newsflash. We all
38:18
sell the same damn place. We're all the same, right? It's a commoditized business. The only difference
38:24
is how does Lona get there from a service standpoint and the comp coming back out? The technology,
38:29
the social media platforms, the marketing departments, it's all fluff. You can buy it all LOs,
38:35
branch managers, regional managers. You can get a third party source to do all of that, right?
38:39
So just make sure that you're running towards something or just be transparent with company and
38:44
say, look, you know what? I didn't prepare financially for this. I got to take a check for the next
38:48
24 months and you got 24 months to prove to me that I made the right decision. And that's a win-win
38:53
both. There you go. That's positioning right there, man.
38:59
All right. One of the things you guys also offered as a chance for those who might want to connect
39:03
with you, I have written down, keep me honest on this, Andy and Dave are open to doing a second
39:08
opinion. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. Do you want to explain what that means at all before we?
39:14
Yeah. I mean, look quite simply and no offense today as a partner of mine. When we
39:22
received our contract, the call he made was, can I sign this? I said, well, did you read it?
39:26
He's like, no, that's why you're here. So I think he, I think he falls in that that throw Dave
39:32
on the sword here, but I think he falls into to a lot of, you know, the devil is in the details.
39:39
So if you want a second look to say, hey, look, am I signing something that could bite me in the
39:43
in the rear? We're happy to take a look at it, dive into it and say, yeah, here's, I mean,
39:49
there's no strings attached. It's what's best for you and your family. And you're just, we're
39:53
out here to try and help protect them from, from themselves. Yeah. Right. What you don't know.
39:59
You don't know what you don't know. Correct. And I want to make it clear with this. We will never
40:04
pitch home side our private label group. Nothing. We will not do that. I truly think that educating
40:10
everybody out there as to what they're doing. The funny thing is, Jeff, if I was going to say,
40:15
hey, Jeff, I'm going to give you a $500,000 loan. Here's the disclosures you've got to sign.
40:19
You would look at every single line. But if I tell you, hey, Jeff, here's 500 grand sign here.
40:24
I'm going to put 500 grand in your account tomorrow. I just say sign here, here, and here.
40:28
In most salespeople will just sign it, right? But what they're really doing is they're holding
40:34
themselves captive. So we'll even look at, we'll look at packages. We are very in tune with where
40:39
rates are in every pocket of the country because the blessings we've had to be a national brand.
40:46
So really, I just want to educate everybody. Hey, look, Andy is a detailed guy. I'm not.
40:52
We both together follow pricing very well. We look at a lot of contracts. Andy is able to just,
40:58
hey, look, if you get anything out of it, go ask this question to your future employer.
41:03
Like, this doesn't make sense to me in here. And if we can do that, just affect one person,
41:08
this podcast was worth it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I wanted to bring you guys on, by the way,
41:13
because it's not the normal conversation, right? But let's face it, it's one that I think we
41:18
can help people get some context on. And if they need some additional guidance or support,
41:23
we're going to provide a way for them to reach out to you, which we already covered this earlier,
41:28
which is I'm going to put a link to both of your LinkedIn profiles in the show notes so that
41:32
people can connect with you individually if they choose to follow you, whatever the heck they want
41:35
to do, they can do so no expectations, no strings attached, no nothing. I do, I love what you said,
41:41
Dave, because that's what I'm all about as well as education. And yeah, when you're making these
41:46
kind of decisions, you got to be informed. So get informed, right? Get it around you.
41:50
That's a great way to put it, Jeff. Get informed. Yeah, exactly. All right, guys, listen,
41:55
I'm going to let you go. Give you back your time for the day. I appreciate you guys being here
41:58
very much. I appreciate you for having us. Thank you, everyone. All right, everybody,
42:03
you know what to do if you like this episode, please leave us a review, share it with somebody that
42:06
you think might find this useful. And we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now. Hey, guys,
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